Hi, I'm DE scientists and along with David French icon hosting. Their liberty, Podcast David and I break down the latest political news, with a focus on the importance of culture and religion and american life are episodes are events twice a week and can be found on Itunes, Google play stature tune in or out, My view online. great, and wailing continue across the republic as Wash remains in shut down It's a Mitt Romney starts the year with a broadside against president trumps character in the Washington, Post and

with Warren awkwardly cracks a beer and tells America that she quite like to be that president, in two years, we'll discuss all this and more on this week's episode of the editors guest hosted this week by me, Charles Cook. I'm joined by Right Salaam and Luke Thompson Rich and Michael, our way on their own adventures and we'll be back next week. Look I'll start with you, given that you are on the political political side of things and I think once killed a man shut down continues. Its proximate cause is funding for the border war, but it seems to have moved a little beyond that whose winning who has proven themselves envy p and how is it going to end by saying I have no comment on the question of homicide, but The only winners, as far as I can see, are federal employee.

Who endure enjoying a furlough, at least through the end of the week, and may be well in the next week who will get paid back, although I'm sure it's a frustrating in this a paycheck which I believe became effective as Monday. But I there's, it seems like right now, this being stylized as a shut down over the wall. That, it's a kind of sub optimal equilibrium, where both sides feel like they're, getting some points standing up for the there, their respective bases on it. But ultimately, I think that if I'm any, of the antagonists. In this thing the person who's going to be frustrated them. Both It is in the long run, is gonna, be Nancy Pelosi, because this will step on her ability to come out of the gate with a clear agenda and she has an internal to her caucus reasons to want to set an agenda. The gate, it's very clear and precise, and those reasons are these first

She hasn't insurgent left winger caucus that is going to demand delivery. deliverables on some of her basis, priorities that the press she wants to avoid most is impeachment. She seized. as probably an atavistic political fight that doesn't help build the party and may, in fact improve Donald trumps likely of re election, and so in order to stave that off, she'll need to stake out some clear points on what, for lack of better term might be called the Bernie Sanders agenda and give her members an opportunity to vote on those issues, by bringing bills to the floor, it will also give us opportunity to. Let swings state or swing seat. Members of her conference vote against an agenda

it is likely to be unpopular and thus distinguish themselves from a National Democratic Party brand. That's going to move to the left as we enter the democratic primaries off or president in twenty twenty and lacking the opportunity to come out of the gate with a clear statement is gonna make that balancing act all the harder for her. Having said that, it's not so much it's not so much pressure that I would expect her to Kay on the wall ran yours, you think a lot about immigration policy have a fascinating new book on this, and this is at least ostensibly about immigration policy. something. I wonder here, especially in light of what Luke just said about the political imperative is shutdowns, create. Energy choices and they tend to inspire the players to air to dig in but Americans and its Congress really actually this

I did over what seems to be your five billion dollars a border war that ten years ago, but some bipartisan support an active evening What is going on, I did a pack of the envelope, I'm sure it's wrong. My mouth always is calculation this morning, and I think I am right in saying that- the: U S government, the federal government spends to five million dollars in about twelve minutes. Now does not It's not important. All spending is I'd like to suspending caught, but that the the Little drama we seeing seems out of proportion to the specific question at hand. What what's happening. That is absolutely true that the federal government spends five billion dollars on any number of priorities, any number of projects and programmes that are not especially efficacious what this is about

Is the fact that President Trump sees the wall as having a great deal of symbolic residence? His opponents also see his call. For a border Wallace having a great deal of symbolic residence for then it is a symbol of racism and xenophobia. Some will say that explicitly: others are locked into say that explicitly, and so they will talk about this notion. that the border wall will be ineffective and that's debatable. I guess you do and that's a longer conversation. I guess my own view is that some kind of barrier is at least bring some of the territory may well make sense, even if it's just a matter of actually giving other layers of border security the ability to know when that border has been breached in etc it. Yet you could talk about us any number of different ways, but I came Jeffreys gifted politician now, one of the members of the democratic leadership, a congressmen from New York City, he said, look we're

I could spend any money when I can spend assent on a border wall that we think of us ineffective, but he has said on more than on occasion we are open to enhanced border fencing, and I find that really interesting, so in evidently A border wall will be utterly ineffective, but enhanced border fencing, that's something good deal with and, to my mind, know what it's really about is. What can president Trump claim victory on a more broadly I just think that a lot of this is just a psychological dynamic, as it pertains to President trump himself. President Trump seems pretty Amida bolder passing some kind of legislation, some how to stop gap, then when he sensed that had been- and this is really true. This is both something you ve been hearing a lot from his critics on the left, but something that I think has some truth. Do it when he sensed that for- all the cultures of the world. The John Hannity show the world what were spoiling for a fight that made him feel vulnerable made. Him feel like that, something he felt obligated to do.

and that is that is worrying, one thing that I thought president Trump Oughta do. One thing that I was surprised he didn't do is declare victory The mexican government made very big significant concessions. They said we are willing to play ball with. remain in Mexico proposal that was advanced by the Trump administration, ultimately, building that cooperation will have far more effect on migrant flows to the United States than this debate. With Democrats in Congress, he could have said: hey Mexico's finally elected a president who cares about the mexican people they ve elected their own trump I've, gotTA thrilled to be worked with him. Is exactly what I wanted now they're turning things around in a word that would have been so laying against type it would And so uncomfortable and confusing for his critics, what I've seen his critics wrestle with us for this is that this cooperation will last before them.

This cooperation will never materialised. It just won't happen that would have sung that would have said into disarray. But then he just didn't do it, and it makes me think that you know he. He was just a little bit too impetuous, but a mere two Luke's point. Maybe this is gonna work. You do some kind, a roundabout way by throwing the Democrats off their game, but I just don't see it. I think he has painted himself into more of a corner than the Democrats have because they are in a position where they can say no and not deliver. I also think the the element that's at work here in terms of his relationship with the right media, that can obviously pressure him is. There is a lot of hostility to his decision to use the waning gaze of unified republican government to pass the first Step act and having done that, there's a sense that if he caves on the Walter then he will have essentially surrendered all of the things he ran on in terms of borders. Ready and also the sort of implicit toughness of making Amerika great again.

I think this is such an interesting one, because I, as you know, a big fan of seven, of powers, and I never ever like the scepticism. You see around shutdowns the hostility. It must be said this largely happens when the press can can blame it on Republicans, but you this holding hostage language or terrorist language of the damage for entirely within their rights to refuse to fund things. They don't want if Congress D, fines to fund the wall. The wall shouldn't be billed. I don't like this idea that was mooted by trumpet. He would use the Miller he'd find some other way to pay for it or or to get it done. I didn't like it when I did that in several of Congress, do it. I will I I'm very much on board with the idea that the sick, ingress notices and I don't have a problem with parties digging and I'm just I'm just interested that that degree the same sort of a show about nothing and in

and I'm generally critical when people say Washington care about what we think is completely out of touch. You knows is so little bickering. Why don't? They just get things done, what they often no getting sunk as they don't grape, but on this It does seem that other things have halved it can over, and I wonder Luke is this going to be pattern. Now that I think, as of today, the Democrats are in charge of the house, which means that they can block pretty much anything they want, and if that is going to be a patent, is there a risk for the Democrats that is there a chance here that actually, paradoxically, this income his trumps strength going into twenty twenty, because he can say: look Congress isn't getting it done Congress is standing in the way Nancy Policy is. The problem I would have

this down at the moment, if he says that it looks a bit silly because Republicans round the house Republicans round the Senate, he had unified government, it's their fault now well, Nancy Place he's not particularly population, especially unpopular among rocks looking if, if, if you are advising Donald from what you say he should do over the next couple years, as you try to within what does he say right out of re run of the outside our and I'll make Congress. My foil with the problem. Is that any advice you give will run up against the hard fact that trumps instincts incline him to cut deals in the short term, regardless of their sort of longer term implications, and so

as long as the democratic give him an off ramp without being seen to have cave to him with their own face. He will take the off ramp eleven times out of ten, and so you know, but a strategy of kind of escalating conflict. The strategy and, in short, that brought about the pursued against Republicans in Congress over bomber care could work. If you had a popular policy issue that you were fighting over, brought about a thought. Obamacare was going to be popular well being extremely unpopular, and so that strategy wound a being self destructive, but it- and you know I'm not sure the wall is the hill on which turn to stage a last stand, but yeah I would. I would advise making sure that you ve picked a popular winning issue. I do think that

republican position on immigration overall is a winning issue. I do know that the wall is precisely the terms. I would like to fight that position over from that need to be yellow to win a political fight, but I just I think it would be very difficult to give advice, because its unclear that you have in Trump someone who will stick to a strategy win the country Gentlemen, off ramp, deal shows up and- and I think Nancy plus he's pretty- any operator when it comes to throwing those things out, there, she's she's, not great at reading the Republican Conference in the house and dividing it I think that was one of our biggest weakness is the last time she was speaker she allowed Vainer in the middle minority too, to cut really clear cut dress with the majority in the house, but I I would be surprised Did she doesn't consistently scuse me if she doesn't consistently undermine sort of.

longer derail messaging strategy by appealing to trumps for lack of a better term vanity when it comes to cutting deals, Rand, which I'd. Do you think over the next couple of years is more in tune with the american public we're, gonna say a showdown here between Trump, That policy led democratic House who has the advantage? I too Luke's point C the Democrats as divided and that obviously going to be very important, but I believe that, within those divisions there is a group of democratic members. Democratic law make

is who are pretty shrewd, pretty willing to fly under the radar and willing to lean into the fact that the press will, generally speaking, offer them more generous, more favourable coverage. By way of example, if you look at the way the immigration debate was covered, you had to proposals that were seeking support from Republicans in the house in the Senate that were made up, but you can have your criticisms of them, but were relatively balanced and reasonable. That were characterized as completely retrograde, an awful and miserable, and then Donald Trump did not pursue a kind of consistent strategy. So then it won't blowing up for every I agree with Luke that fundamentally, the republican position on that issue is broadly popular, but president rubbed and pursue a consistent strategy at all. Just blew up, look like a complete and miserable waste and that it also discouraged those lawmakers from actually seeking to do other things. The Democrats won't have that same problem. They have all kinds of divides amongst them, but

do broadly agree. They all want to spend more on government in various ways. They all want to basically reward them electoral constituencies with various discreet expansion of government, so they're gonna cut of road together and even when they make some kinds of technical errors, they will get the benefit of the doubt that one big picture thing. The other big picture thing is that in a public opinion is thermos static. You have a republican president, who is very vulnerable. Excuse me very visible and some who could have has a habit of putting it his mouth and Democrats. They just need to not embarrass themselves so egregiously and oilseed, or have a unified, targeted policy to some extent as that, but I just think that there in a pretty good position, provided they don't get too ahead of their skis and even in the event that they do, I dill think that it could turn decently well, for them, so will see ya,

so have a democratic primary that will serve as more cover to sort of absorb now that that will throw off plenty of crazy in its own right. But it will also give top cover to the Democratic House to pursue its own is interesting in the sense that that will draw a lot of attention, bright, red right, read, write and, and that will also be the thing that draws the president's attention, because I mean, as he tweeted while we were recording he just put out a parody of Elizabeth warns campaign sign with Warren. Twenty twenty change to more and one to hunt two thousand twentieth fraction of her apparent native american ancestry, all right, sir, Twenty twenty. The shut down well, a. Still loom large in the imagination as a key moment in trumps presidency, be factor in somewhat, but not sway too much or see what shut down

look. This won't matter in may be I see see what shut down I think what shut down as well. I don't think they tend to obtain while Romney, took to the pages of the Washington Post on January first and basically said that President Trump is not a good person. He didn't sign everything trumpeted said he had some sympathy for some of his agenda, but it was not. I imagine, the sort of characterisation that President Trump Likes was this a good idea Luke. I don't think so. Look Mitt Romney is not a conventional freshman. Senator everybody knows that, and I think he's it's: it's not unreasonable. for him to say, I'm not going to behave like a conventional freshman senator he has nationwide name. I D

he's older than most freshmen senators. It's ok for him to be a bit of a man in the hurt we in the Senate as much as the Senate is, as an institution is arrayed to frustrate those kinds of ambitions. Having said that, its unclear to me what the objective of this object is, does anybody think that Mitt Romney approves of Donald trumps person know nobody thinks so right I mean Mitt Romney is in his personal life. As far as we can tell the kind of a paragon of Probity, Donald Trump is not. There is not a lot of ambiguity about that fact. Having said that, Romney during his campaign and at other points when he was courting trump to be so

to state, for instance, was willing to put that aside and make a kind of condominium with Trump around policy. There is nothing wrong with that sort of accommodation, but having said that, to come out of the gate with this. would seem to be a prolonged to something else, but trot, but but Romney's making it obvious that he has no intention at least right now. Fine, I'm asking me what what what. Why did you do it, because some have said what what what he's actually done hairs he's made a rod for his own back because he he obviously is now. going to win over the Democrats. He's not gonna win over progressive in the press. They don't like him and they have this view that the only way you can have proved that your opposed to the president is to vote, like a Democrat Surely he is now opened himself up to criticise

because he said in the bad luck. I don't like it when Trump does this that in the other, I don't like it when he says things, I think so, and racist and when he does those things I'm going to me, but of course he's not going to comment every time. First, he's not time have time to comment every time. It would just be press release after press release after Presley's. Secondly, he wants to do things down and he's not going to irritate the present every day if he wants to get his bill through get his priorities like that, so that people will say will clearly Mitt Romney doesn't think what Donald Trump said this morning was racist or he'd have said something to give the risks involved. What why? Why did he? We already knew what Mitt Romney thought of a President drum yeah. I I really don't know other that he other than that his team, and he seemed to think that aside, in some degree of independence would help mark him out politically. It may be that

he intends to add senator function, sort of as a counter Trump mouthpiece within the kind of conservative movement writ large within the Republican Party nationally. He may feel that he's uniquely position to do that. I suspect that he's looking ahead to twenty twenty and feels pessimistic about the likelihood of Trump winning reelection and wants to position health is a as a possible leader of rebuilding the party moving on, even though I think he would tell you he's of an age. Where does it intend to run for president again maybe about staking himself out for a sort of longer play. He doesn't need to worry too much about re election in Utah, but I I see this as as a misstep. I think this was a mistake, and so it's difficult for me to impute motive to this mistake, because it looks to me alive,

like the Elizabeth, worn dna test, something where they felt, they had a problem. That problem may have been more imagined than real, but in acting, in a particular way. They actually need the problem, a bigger problem, rather than solving its worth, noting Charlie Luke that Romney reportedly was reluctant to intervene in this fashion. He you know, came to the decision, as is often the case with Mitt Romney. Who is an agonising decision for him and it didn't look like a slam dung from his perspective, but I want to offer a kind of best case scenario for what's going on here: so it is true to the point the Charlie raised about this being a kind of in a a rod for his own back. That Democrats are already objecting hey wages. in IRAN, me is actually calling for stringent immigration enforcement. Actually Romney did not take the president to task for taking a hard line. On China, its biggest were actually that's exactly

Rami ran on and twenty twenty round self deportation he ran on combat China's trade abuses and what have you? So? I think that this is actually pretty. Darn differed from the position that Jeff Lake it taken Jeff, lake is someone who has taken a very different positions. He kind of had been known as a kind of adamantine, libertarian Republican, but someone who gravitate towards favouring carbon taxes and what have you figure favouring a more account of centrist you don't neo liberal approach to policy making that you look at it, nothing wrong with that, but it was a different kind of thing. It was a departure in many respects, from what you might call the conservative mainstream, whereas Mitt Romney Could argue II has been trying to redefine what that conservative mainstream? Is he tried to do in twenty twelve and he's trying to do it now what he is saying is that there are things that the president has done. That I embrace, I think, are good and sensible. However, there are failures of character, there are failures, are what you might call. Personnel management are somewhat, you can quibble with them.

what he said about you know about Syria. Afghanistan, but it's interesting. I think that what he's trying to do is actually reposition that kind of Trump critical position within the party to say that actually, there are some aspects of this kind of populist nationalist stance that are worth preserving. We do want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we still want to be able to criticise, from personally Tucker Karlsson? Had this really fierce, lacerated critique of Mitt Romney, and I found it very effective in what he really focused on. As for small Mitt, Romney Biography, the fact that he came from main capital made his millions in private equity and, of course, that in a for a populist, is gonna, be a very vulnerable point, but then also to

about Syria, specifically in this idea? If you don't have, Donald Trump was saying that we too want you, took it of american lives to be sacrificed for this kind of grand kind of internationalist project. That was a vulnerable point, but the thing is that ok, you can embrace that critique, while also acknowledging that President Tromp has not gone about this in the most deft careful way, and I think that we know what Romney's trying to do is actually do something pretty different, distinct from either side of what we caricature of that kind never tromp position and in a whether or not he is the right person to do it is either you could say that he's the right person to do at precisely because he does not have a future. As a presidential candidate he's Trent gotta stake out some Rube Luke gestured up at the end of his remarks when he was saying that Emmett Romney thinks that Donald Trump may well lose right, and if Donald Trump loses what's going on

the response, one response is going to be well gosh. We should throw out everything about the trumpeters. Another response is actually trying to be a bit narrower than that and I think in a way that could be what Romney's gesturing towards yeah. I agree with that. I think the biggest issue is that if you're going to draw distinctions with the president, you of your own personal? Why is your first, to act as a senator attacking the prison of your own party. You have to answer that question. What is the urgency and and Donald Trump being a moral reprobate is the least urgent fact in American

local life right now and that's not some sort in December. It always actually about the kind of deep descent in December right exactly if he wanted to make it a challenge on questions of foreign policy, one that would have been substantive and I think something where most republican voters are actually with Rami. Even though people are sceptical of the kind of hyper aggressive interventions in the Middle EAST, I think most republican voters are agreement, that trumps shall we say, ad hoc approach to foreign policy that tends to give more than it gets is not vertically popular. After all, peace through strength implies strength. but but that's not what he did and as I've written national review before its true that Romney's an trump ism are sort of kissing cousins ideologically, even though their figureheads could not be more different, as as individual people an end. So I guess that that

that remains the biggest question. Was there some new revelation in December about Donald Trump character? No, neither wasn't so, then. Why is this the first thing you're doing had I been advising senator Elect soon to be centred around me. I would have said: look what are the two things you really disagree with Donald Trump on, I suspect, Mitt Romney is probably ambivalent about the first step act. He very well could have come out and criticise Donald Trump for I'll break bill. He also could have come out in criticized on Syria that would have put numbers of the right wing press, I think, in a difficult place, because an Coulter was absolutely unflinching, their criticism, the president on first step, but also like a lot of folks and in those four corners is pretty skeptical of our interventions are brought punch right and punch left. Yes, I think so

Betray certain lack of imagination it it's funny right hand, you you explain that, because that was might gonna, be my question to you almost exactly what you said was. It was too easy, have time for a re evaluation of Mitt Romney. In that the the what both, I suppose them extreme view, but also, especially within the the mega hat wearing community Mitt Romney is seen as some sort of traitor, turn squash and lose exactly what Donald Trump came in and needed to sweep away? But You say that that's not really correct and in some ways not setting out in his character or tone, but in some ways Mitt Romney was. It was approach our trump on on China and trade. In some ways on on immigration, but I think it it either to a certain lack of imagination on Roma, his power or perhaps to a political culture that is fairly shallow, that that he felt that he needed to go down. This route

I mean I am. I am deeply critical of the way in which progress is treat anyone who descents from from Trump that is, they essentially set up a boy that is so high that nobody outside of their own people can can reach it? say if you really opposed tromp, if you really were critical of him on base, if you really don't like the way, he talks about that. If you re think he's raw and trade than you to go after him on X, Y and save it. Of course That'S- going to happen for most conservatives because they like trumps judges and they'll, likes to trumps tax cuts and they like trumps policies on environment. Some of them do was that that that than ever gonna do that. But there is a good counter argument to that end counter argument made by people like Josh Barrow who say yes, it is course stupid.

say that anyone who is a real critic of trumps has to be a democratic, but other ways in which Republicans, who want to explain and prove that they are not just a rubber stamp, can show it. No, they don't need to oppose tax cuts. No, they don't. You propose good too but they could, for example, do more than just complain on cable news about bad trade decisions. They could do more than stay silent when there are handful about judges that have been put forward are that they can make a thing of it now some helped himself did, in his view, sender, Patrick meetings as well on trend in particular right and pat to me, but but there are other ways for Republicans, stand up. I would, for example, absolutely have love to see the Senator Mitt Romney say you know. One of my priorities when I get to Congress is going to be

finishing presidential power. I dont think that the president should be making unilateralism on Trade Congress has allowed him to do that for too long. I dont think the presidency. You're, making unilateral decisions on foreign policy. The president has done this for too long now he didn't do it Maybe he didn't do that because he lacks imagination and he is with in the political bubble and the way you get attention in the political bubble is to sound like max boot. Or maybe he didn't do it, because our culture is shallow and that actually is and what anyone cares about its certainly not what progressives care about. It's, not what probably the editorial the Washington Post care about, because they ultimately dont want the president's power diminish. They want trumps power, diminish. They don't want the executive power change. They want trumps Powell that there's a more generous way putting that Charlie, which is that, if you believe,

we ought to have a powerful president. You actually are especially invested in the idea that you want a president who has strong character. No one could argue that that is a structural weakness of kind of calling for a strong executive, which is fair enough, but it wouldn't. It would surprise me a feed Romney believed, certainly when he was running for present himself, that you know what I have a strong president who has wide berth to make decisions, Visa free trade and much else. I was just kind of thinking about the fact that Romney's campaign book prior to his twenty opera, was called no apology. The case for american greatness. He someone who clearly does embrace some aspects of the kind of idiots, logical project that President tromp his wound up advancing, but he's very concerned about the inconstancy of the person is actually doing it in which seems like a not unreasonable stance to take your. I think that one of the things that you ve pointed at Charlie is there's a basic blocking in tackling question about

hop as well, which is why the hell did he put the Washington post yeah right. I mean why not put it in one of the Utah papers. It would have gotten the same amount of coverage, but it would have at least driven traffic to it in state media outlet. Now maybe Romney thinks I'm a NASH figure. I don't need that kind of sort of home, town, Attaboy relationship with the press talk, but to me it just screams of a new team that is dropping the ball on the basics of sort of blocking and tackling rolling out a political strategy for candidate yes will not be like other freshman senator she's going to be a national figure, but just because he's will be national, figured doesn't mean he's not still. The junior senator from Utah, indeed sir, sir exit question on this topic met, Romney's all pad will be look back upon ass them

and all turned ass. A check on Trump in some ways or ass. A nurse The moment trample dispense with Romney as he does everyone else? Look, I think it'll be a damp squib that marginally hurts Romney's influence in Washington Ryan. I think it's somewhere between a and b, I think he's gonna learn from the experience, but I also think that, depending on how you know the next few months, unfold, he's gonna, keep calibrating and re calibrating, and I think you ll come out stronger. for having made you know what was not the most deftly handled. Intervention has its first first move: do do you notice right Anaheim, cruelly depriving you have the chance to number in around us enough now and to split the?

and I respect that, giving you let us, instead of numbers, how to live, incidentally, that the idea of Mitt Romney carefully calibrating his political persona is one that why imagine from that is a very good man, but, as a politician is not exactly what they just briefly, I mean I know we need to move on, but I'm curious to hear from out of you too, so it seems that one thing that send a Romney wants to do centre, like Romeo should say, is: you take that Mccain role to be a role in a figure in the transatlantic alliance. Someone who is a senator who kind of is a source of risk. to alight and gotta preserves a relationship. Lets you of a democratic president. Come twenty twenty one. Do you think that that's a realistic possibility? I think you need possible heat as, as I said, he does have,

gravitas and ability to command the national conversation than most freshmen senators so sure, and he doesn't have to run for another six years. Presumably he's guessing win, whichever democratic president winds and twenty twenty is election, so yeah. Absolutely. I think he could do that. I just think that his team is gonna, have to get a lot more politically savvy and in so far as they ve been not. I hope this is a learning experience its fatal, but they they need to be much more cognisant of the fact that there are national political figure and the senator at the same time, which makes them unique or almost unique, look Mitt Romney, first person a hundred years or more, to hold different statewide offices in separate states. He is a distinctive unique person. He was his party's nominee for president, like arguably Charles Heavens, hues the closest thing we have to him or you have to go way back in the early nineteenth century. need to be much saviour and much smarter than they ve been with this role.

I won't Say never and I'm not especially good predictions, but I think more Romney may well believe that he should put himself within the orbit of the presidency. The can't hurt, but I dont think is going to happen. I think I think we ve moved on night. I think Americans move on in a way they. They didn't used to bring Williams Williams William Jennings Brian ran three times addressing that happens these days, and we just so what happens when when people do run again with with with Hillary Clinton speaking of which Elizabeth Warren became the first Democrat to throw her hat into the ring and say she wants to be president. She did so with a thought slightly strange, I'm down with the kids video,

We have known for a long time that Lisbon Warren wanted to be president. I think everybody expected her to do this, but since she was first thought of ass S, hope for she has, I think, shut herself foot with I'm really a native American here's. My twenty three in meat test stunt that that backfired, badly and didn't just back by about by inviting ridicule from the right- and it must be said, at a victory for Trump but also inspired many on her own saw it especially people within the sort of net roots nation, call that she likes to think of herself ass. Appealing to she angered those people and she committed what you could say as the cardinal sin in the modern Democratic Party by making herself look like an old white woman, which is, of course, what she is

Luke does Elizabeth Warren have a shot and if she does what's her lane other lines yeah I in the Democratic Party, especially their lanes, because the organ light, the organizational and institutional lift required to successfully complete, nor I their cautious, as is much greater than it is for Republicans, because some rules that we won't get into, but it now there may be big enough democratic field that, for the first time, the democratic cock, the the Caucasus Iowa for the democratic, just an afterthought, much people skip them. I wouldn't be shocked, see that especially given how early California in twenty twenty, but I allude with war needs to decide if she's, fish or foul? say she going to run as what made her famous. that is to say, a sort of technocratic intellectual, legitimate

of the fever dreams of the American left, who gives a kind of credible gloss to them, based on her past academic appointments and ability to stand with a straight face in front of a chart and pretend like many care for all will save us money, or is she going to run on her biography with which clearly enamored about you know, sort of, sort of the earth up from up from nothing dirt floor, Oklahoma to Harvard Biography, an end. If she's going to be a biographical candidate, then a lot of the myth making that she's done is going to be so. Jack to greater scrutiny than she suffered in the past? When Republicans had been the people poking holes in that biography, because for the first time, people in our own party are going to subject those subject: does things screw I can tell you having seen, was with warns opera research. While there is a lot to work with their if she smart in my opinion, she would run as the policy person. I dont think she is because

I think she's become in love with her own story. Her own narrative thrown biography at our own voice. And that means I would not that on Elizabeth worn, but can she get there? Yes, of course you can get there look. Ask a rude question about Lisbon airline. She has a reputation as a policy is not entirely undeserved. She does have an academic background. She though, was now Always Elizabeth worn, I mean she was not always the sort of person I've got standing, ovation, progressive Organization, she's to be republican. She wrote very different. Financial books the real question will be issue fraud. That's not quite what I'm asking What I am asking is is their attention not just in terms of how she runs for president, but is there a tension between the sooner ass champion of the people, which is a more recent thing.

And her persona ass policy based technocrat. Did they come into conflict in a way that will be difficult to get around Don't think so, simply because her crowning intellectual achievement and are listeners get Harry, making sneer quotes round the word intellectual is the Csp B and c of people ah remains massively popular in leftwing circles, is viewed as I think, up pretty real strike against predatory lending and other evil corporate practice its quota. So I dont think the inherent tensions in her intellectual life will pose a problem to her, such as they are. I think it's much more in the fact that she and her husband made a lot of money, flipping houses during the subprime boom and and also her promotion based on completely made up claims of native american heritage. I think it's, the biography. That's gonna hurt a lot more than that

intellectual inconsistency- this is very inside baseball, but you know another one of her major intellectual contributions if in color, that is our work on medical bankruptcies, work that has been scrutinised and questioned and dismantled by a variety of thanks, but I've gotta say I actually find her pretty interesting and impressive. In this sense, there are a bunch of intellectual movements in the kind of U S: Centre left the last ten years or so that she's made herself that kind of hub and champion of any either. You can question the value of these differ movements, but you know they think about the Anti monopoly movement. For example, she has been a real patron of that movement and also need a one of her in our chief advisers years. Pass gonna sit or I'm on has done. Some mention work in this idea them

class constitution. The idea of trying to actually connect some contemporary progressive ideas with older themes in american history, which I've gotta say just as someone who has a weakness for the founding generation and idiotic, and I know Luke does to us as the host over constitutionally speaking. It's kind of need to see folks on the left actually Hey, how does this connect with our founding ideal secretive it? So she is trying to do something. A little different she's. Also saying: no, I'm a capitalist. You no one can question her, but It is on that front, but she's explicitly saying no, I'm not embrace the democratic socialist label, I'm someone who wants competition and what have you I'm not sure how well this is gonna work with the kind of younger, woke divests, but I mean it's something that feels a little bit shrewd and clever it. Something that could have been you know, maybe more effective, had you running until he Clinton and twenty sixteen that running it

when he twenty, but I do think she someone who is curious, she takes chances. She has been a patron to a lot of people. You know with whom I did pretty strongly, but who are taken seriously and left leaning circles, and that makes her different from allow the other democratic candidates so that it I'd, let him credit for that let's see, then that she becomes the norm anyhow, I want to come back to whether she will be, but just on on the point you are making round, which is a very interesting one. Esteem sheep comes the nominee and she goes up against Trump. Runs for re election and twenty twenty, either right nominee for them to choose, because it will not be the case if Trump does run for re election that the Republican, is as easy as usual to paint as an oligarchy. Corporate overlord is completely out of touch with the people. Don't jump is in some ways out of touch He is in some ways a man who

in rarefied circles in skyscrapers in monologue golf courses, but he doesn't come across like that in much of his appeal seems to be that, cut through in a way that a lot of republicans don't and although he doesn't hey like Elizabeth worn and he doesn't sound like Elizabeth, worn and in practice his politics are not Elizabeth warrens. There is nevertheless more of a focus on workers and the little guy and making sure China doesn't take advantage each US and all this, that you wouldn't hear from a Jeff Flake Alice with warm presumably wants to run against a flake, because then she can get back into into her we'll house. But if she ran against trumped up, does she have a problem

the heat he caught some of the same ground as she does, albeit in a different way. I wonder I I guess my senses that you know it's true. Many of her themes would be strikingly similar to the themes that Donald Trump struck and twenty sixteen about cronyism. And corruption in this case, however, which would be saying is that you know look in Donald Trump case, it's fake its insubstantial and one it vantage she would have, and I've got to say you know, look at this late hour. I dont see her is especially strong candidate and a general election, but I do think semantically, when you are in. humble- and it is much much harder to attack elites. It need fundamentally in people, try to cut a frame populism as an idiotic g, but really it away this is a tactic that outsiders or use against insiders. Hillary Clinton was the consummate

insider has really affected Donald Trump in a kind of asked her one term in office. You know, he's still a quirky figure, but it's a lot harder for him to characterize himself at this pure outsider and to the extent that these this language of Hannah, cronyism and corruption still resonates, which it still might then that's something that chicken weapon eyes against him. So the Brok of Amr did it quite willing twenty twelve and he was an ill. It's a fair point and NATO. Certainly Fred Barnes talked about George W Bush is the rebel and chief that certainly something good incumbents. Try to do, and sometimes they succeed. Ok, so sore! Oh, no, it's all right! I'd look, Democrats, love, nominate, Frost belt, liberals, that's Lee Attwater's term for them. Frostbite liberals tend to lose precisely because they look like these insiders. These brahmins, these out of touch of feet, types who want to take. Take your money put their hands in your wallet to spend on utopian, imagined projects that don't work. Having said that, Donald Trump has gotta get out of the low forties in terms of his prove a rating. If he's gonna win reelection we're the economy

still ticking along and he isn't getting any credit for it. I don't think and keep taking long for another two years. I regard so who they run. Things need who change in order for him to win reelection, not states. Out of the question, but things need to change: ok, having so that is Elizabeth Lisbon warn their strongest contender know she is not. I do not think that she is perfectly charismatic. I dont think that she's gonna broaden the democratic base that doesn't matter. Probably if Trump remains mired in the forty two, forty three, forty four terrain that he's in right now she would we anyway, but I do think she's power Will we are below replacement democratic nominee compared to some of their other options when it? Let's talk about that little then an let's take head on this idea that you are in some way defective. If you don't think she's likeable, you just said you don't think think. She's charismatic

we told that gender these these only applied to women it. It would be a mistake. I think, if Democrats went down that road, they. They tried to bully Americans interlocking Hillary Clinton. They they didn't. It didn't work that obviously trying to many people into liking warm. You ve already seen this explosion, my goodness, how can you say she's? Unlike a you, cannot really somebody into liking. Somebody- and you cannot make somebody who is not charismatic or who is not likeable likeable just by saying that they should be an The criticism is made, I think, in bad faith anyway, because the assumption is that the people who don't like Elizabeth, worn and Hillary Clinton would oppose women for any public office, even if they agree with them or if they like them, and I think that's unfounded, but it is with Warren. probably can't get past the fact that that she's just now, especially likeable, especially with such a big failed, yeah or or or doesn't it

no that matters in the democratic primary, what why not either bigger issues that she's not she's gonna have a lot of credible competitors. Her ideological late as for The unlike a book, is sexist criticism. These people, it's just idiotic, Google TED crews, unlike a and you will get pages and pages and pages of results from from guinea is from the very what that most of these people whining on twitter right for but Warren, let's just ok. Warren is the first woman elected to state my office, or at least a year, I think, to state what often Massachusetts history Massachusetts is not a state that frequently vote for women. So there's something to that. Having said that, she got fewer internally Baker did she ran for reelection twenty, a team that matters that, to me is a pretty clear signal that

there is a segment of the electorate in Massachusetts that dislikes her Did I dislike her because she's a woman, maybe, but I think it's also equally possible that they do like her, because they view her as one of these out of touch Brahman elites with a bunch of fantastical ideas. In many for many. The same reasons Michael Dukakis was easily painted of this kind of up by his bootstraps Greek kid who did well in politics in and was upwardly mobile got painted, is the consummate elite insight or by the son of a U S, senator who was a third generation gale student right like an inn in in Bush, forty one precisely cause the kind of style of utopian politics that comes out of Massachusetts, doesn't play everywhere else. People don't like it.

So the tour observational equivalent? I would just point out, I don't hear people saying Camel Harris's, unlike apple, because she's not she's, not in likeable. Do I wanted to be president? No do I think she's, unlike about no. I think she's gotta get out of here. I think she's, a talented politician this is ranging slightly out of the topic, but it is related to. I wonder, then, if you too would both give me the people you think Elizabeth warrant should be. most worried about and why? Just maybe maybe the two at the moment that are either obviously going to run. President would be stupid not to run for president who should with Warren, be losing sleep over as a candidate and why? I guess,

Pandit cliche to talk up the chances of the obscure Amy closure. But I do think that a heat Lavoisier is someone who is a democratic, senator very accomplished, having served as a turning general someone who is really good at talking about bread and butter issues, juice from the upper Midwest. She is from a state that has been moving as somewhat out of the democratic column towards the republican column, yet who has fared well with republican voters, including some trump voters. She seems like an awfully effective politician, who just seems like a normal person, and I think that that likeable, I will I will I will like relating to, I think, does not yet she's against gotta get since EU she's likeable anyone else why I would see the two that she needs to worry about from the democratic primary calendar are burning in New Hampshire and Harrison California, and you have to electric

is still highly regionalized electorate they like candidates from their neck of the woods. We saw that in Bernie, who posted up massive numbers versus Hilary, more so than you would have expected, and obviously part of that was because he's from neighbouring Vermont Bernie may flame out I have thought that he's going to be the Rick Santorum of this election cycle, the runner up, who just boss the second go round her, but he could still do damage to her in an early state where she needs deposed impressive numbers, especially because the democratic primary is all proportionally allocated. So she needs to run up margins in states where she can expect to run up margins, and then I think Harris's big threat or in California and Power we also in southern states, where you know I am a quarry, Booker sceptic. I would short inquiry Booker right now. That may prove to be wrong. He campaigned aggressively for Doug Jones, Alabama, etc, but I think that

It is more likely to do well with black voters in the south, which are a huge chunk of the democratic primary electorate than Booker will so those the two people that are, I think, boxing her in all right said. The ex question on this topic, as we ve covered much of this, but let's put it on the record. Elizabeth Warren is a President Warren in waiting be a contender sea. It is all downhill from here, Ryan see look all downhill when President Warren is installed and power as president for life and we are executed this part gas will you played at our show trial. Go absolutely. I regret that. I have that one life to give

pod cast an eye. We move on to editors picks raw him. My editors pic is a terrifically fun quarter posed by Charles, see w cook you might have heard of him in which he was taken to task Eric, or it's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who offered and inventive proposal to rally the change, the composition of the? U S in it, an idea for which surely had very little patients. I've gotta say I kind of like inventive zany ideas, though this one, I could see war on your nerves and as it were, on mine, even mine, as someone who really does have a lot of time for this kind of stuff normally, so that was that there was a great pleasure to read: Luke VD each has great peace California, I dont entirely agree with his analysis, but I think that it gets to some of the key socio

go and psychological, slash cultural issues that are driving California into the ground, where the state just routinely shows up in the bottom of major quality of life and public service ratings. And so I commend it to everyone. To read, thank you. A mine is Kyle Smith on Louis UK call ably this man the idea that it is Louis e who is changed rather then his critics, or rather dismantles there. There is anything less transgressing about making jokes go right up to the line when they target people the left likes than there is checks that girl right up to the line when they talk at the people that the it likes. I didn't need saying over and over again all jokes have about people get hurt by comedy and if they didn't it wouldn't be comedy. There is such a problem. I think, with with with Twitter

in that its virtue is also its vice. You can find anyone and talk to them. You can also find anyone talk to them, but I can't be great for comics who have become accustomed to making. eggs and suddenly told a while his somebody who had a terrible experience that terrible experience in some way intersects with your jack? They would like to speak to you that way, I'm afraid lies puritanism. Finally, we have light items this week, Luke. What is your life, My light item is a television show called the last kingdom. It is not particularly well acted, but it is a delightful sort of romp through a fictional ized version of late eat. Really, ninth century english history, specifically the sort of ascendancy of the kingdom of of Wessex under Alfred the great and the various and sundry wars. With the Vikings that Alfred fought in sort of creating the ascendancy Wessex that last

till the Norman invasion right. You ve been engaging in geopolitical thrillers. That's that's true. I stumbled upon this book like actually read it. Excuse me. I bought it ages ago. When I came out, I think it came and twenty fifteen I called host fleet, which is this kind of Imaginative Tom Clancy. Ask thriller projection of what a war might look like between the United States on the one side and China and Russia on the other, and it was wildly wildly fund. This is not right, literature by any means, but it was incredibly neat and its also heavily foot noted silver similar views, instant kind of strategic stuff. It was great and it was also just really need to read it, if good old fashioned patriotic yarn about american service members just kicking ass. If it were women, as this takes place in the twenty twenties deep into their twenty twenties and

and you know I just got me on this. Kick reading a few other things are one of the co authors of that book August. Coal. Has written a few other kind of projections into the twenty twenty two twenty thirty's, how military technology might evolve and how we might respond, and then there is this other book, another geopolitical thriller about the world. After a north korean nuclear attack on the United States, it makes a kind of commission report. It has some lefty assumptions, but it's still a really quite clever and fun book in some ways, and also quite terrifying. So anyway, geopolitical thrillers are my late item accident. Well, my lifetime and I run the risk of having done this before if so that, what to serve as a testament to my love of english pubs, I was in England over Christmas with my whole family. On a couple of occasions. We settled into a good english pub Good Village pub

that really wants your in you just don't want to leave not just serving drink so that it doesn't hurt, but the atmosphere is unique. more comfortable, well worn in leather Chaz log fires tend to have a cat. Her a dog sitting by the fire musics not allowed us not to quiet, comfortable, chair People in the background is low. Beams village, I'm I'm from, has very old houses in it for five hundred years old. and I find it very difficult once I get into a good english pub to leave, I just have one more just have one more, even I must say in in parenthood, Well, that is what we have time for this week. Thank you ran. Thank you. Luke rich, I believe, will return. Next week we have been the editors and we will see

next time.