« The Editors

Episode 177: Another Great Doctrinal Kerfuffle

2019-11-21 | 🔗

Today on The Editors, Rich, Charlie, Michael, and Jim discuss Gordon Sondland’s Wednesday testimony, conservative disagreements over capitalism, and this week’s Democratic debate.

Editors’ Picks:

Light Items:

  • Charlie: The beach in winter (“winter”).
  • Michael: “Stock season”: as in, making stocks on the stove.
  • Jim: The Mandalorian.

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The Editors is hosted by Rich Lowry and produced by Sarah Schutte.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Did Gordon Sunland Sinch impeachment can mark a Rubio save capitalism and whose the democratic Frot runner now Whilsgas, this more on this week's edition of the editors OM, Merslarry joint is always by the right honourable Charle C, W Jim. How de like me now, a three winds Garety sand, that a tores, oh boot, do MI go Brendon Tory, listened to Aneth yew podcast our spots of this week is donors, Trust attack tax friendly way to simplify charitable, giving without compromising your value. If you're listening values, I should say, If you Listeng to hi Spodcast on NAS or YU, Dakham would like to have you, but eat be easier for you and better for us. Few made ast part of your feet at any of them number of
services out there from Spotify to Itunes. If you like what you hear here, please give us a glowing five star view on Itunes. If you don't like what you hear here, please forget, I said anythinks. I ask every one too: forgive my rough voice and Maya. No coughing here getting over a post book, tour, cold or Theid. Dive in on a hot story, Michael of impeachment, at Gordon Sunlin this week. Coo am I a gudy, I say it's a sort of it is disgraceful what he did can see in his deposition. It is totally anodyne version, deceptive version of what happened
and then a tailor comes and tells the truth and son Lawson. Remember sir, as Sa Heit remembers that he he was the one to put it to the acradiums of this one, meaning that tit they'd have to do theinvestigations to get the aid ot released, he'd forgotten about. What would I thought you know any time talking to they really allowed donall tromp at a restaurant become memorable that he who ointed lie died out on yourself. You forgot that too. Enhe. He shows up and Lot Mordrant attached to his Testimunt Jus. As are one else. We knew what they are got a sake as Ere Goin to say the same things their deposition, but obviously Sonlence deposition had been rende. Noperative he comes out and he spills his guts, an Y responsibility as far as he can quite deliberately you know saying: Alvan Hy was on the loop and Pences a in ENE, Luo and Pompei was in the loop and displayed as a proverbial bomb Chell. He went of his way to use a the phrase Quibroquo a which in republic
trump have gote other way to deny, even though not very plausibly for a while now and the easetters could brokuwo Inter Whtehouse meeting said he assumed there is a quick proquo about the security Aidwhich, be a pretty good assumption, you'd think, but Republicans fastened on that as a weakness in this case, Whuld make Thet. Ah it was bad week for at me he was bad testimony for president Trump. Ah, it was embarrassing a thing for Republicans in the hearings trying to defend Trump Ahm, their defence, you know that The'Re, the questioning has been kind of lifeless, I think and convictionless. In many instances, in the sense of a omor
seemed to be trying to find the line, follow the line set by the White House of no Prert Quid Proquo. It was a perfect call. Ah, a and the testimony and Democrats are just beneath it being Basily, been able to push republicans over that line and trip them on every time. Ah, there are better defences of the President Pacicly at nationaries Wene side, when Luke TOMS and rights are any maccarthyrites than what is being offered in these hearings. Am, I think, I don't know if any of the masth has changed on impeachment e think. I think, thee some on testimony rine with a tailor testimony just by themselves. I think they they don't add many more facts, but I think they somehow increase the urgency for Democrats ah to please their base by voting for im
I think the the possibility of them stopping short of impeachment as a remedy and going toward something like censure Ahm. Well, I thought it was were. Before it's even more remote after this testimony, I think that's EI know I think that's the practical upshot, TA think a lot of the dyes been cast on these things. I I just wanted to throw in a note ecause. It wasn't here. I think last two weeks on impeachment that AR one thing thats bothered me about to the hearings, including the silent testimony, is and very much tailor's. Testimony is the sort of um Democrats seemed to be looking at. Ah, what I would call for them. They look like aggravating factors to the offence. Ah thereafter, so Trump doesn't respect you crane enough. He doesn't recognize Yeucrans on the front line against Russia.
Where he uses Rudy Giuliani is cut out all of those things. I think Democrats think they're aggravating factors I think their irrelevant to the impeachment case or they're just perfectly fine. This is what presidents do you know. Jv Kay had Bobby Kennedy Deal with a issues in Berlin when he wasn't secretary of State he was a turning general, but some one that Bobby Cannedy trusted it's the presence prerogative to set form policy. I Magu said, I think those are not impeach boll offences, I don'thing. They add anything to the Democrat's case and their distraction, and I wish the hearings would not focus on them yet orn't that it'll be studied for decades, just what a presential decision or what police
meant in in this error, cause theseiskai say a with TA present Posedofficial policy was working against official policy and I know that's deeply wronged to e n the face of it. A the present sets the policy in this respect but the official Polsy Was- is a policy he like adopted it. You know and they've base ways, Kint O workin around it and yet was, At the other end, a Eesyria and E Pullau. Well Nou, not Kas. People were around him. It is just like nothings ever decided us all completely a murky and Thas. One of the I think the best defence for Republicans is just Dee. The harm doesn't equal. The the capital punishment nature of impeachment in a removal and whan. The elements of that is like the wholthing was so confused. It ambiguous, Ente, IAD
doing it, but the confusion. Ambiguities not like a credit right, a all right. Exactly it's is Tlike. Yo have capnelings net a smart post on the cornerting. Both things can be true that it's the presence prerogative Sepalicy a end. Trumpted it for reasons that are our personal in nature and not presidential and its a political offence and the house can decid do impeach him eh. Just because you failed to complete a corrupt act, doesn't mean it wasn't a corrupt act, ah or impeachable. So we'll see how please out, but I think the upshot of this is that for Democrats were really tuned into the impeafment proceeding. I just don't think away for policy or any one else to kind of stop the train and he never yet so Jim. What do you make of where a publicans are on this? Now, because where were taken the day after silos test,
mony and yesterday afternoon Kyew that they got a little traction against Sonone, a puitting out that, when came to the a Quipro Quol Regar. In the security aid, more consequential than the Whit House visit that Son Thed have forsand knowledge. She just had. The presumption is, as Samon said, somewhat famously, YO know, just at adding toplus two weeks, four, the Republicans point out or Ye E. Just you don't know, and one of the mega's Ratcliff ran through ALF silence interactions with present on you, crane and pointing out there all a elodine, a an ingarguably, the last one, but I arguably, where Trump says, there's no quid pro quo, I don't want anything for the Ukrainians. I want them to do the right thing and that last part may just be restating the quid pro quo in different words, or it may be a go to assert a certain cognisance
innocence on Trump's part or a motive. That was sincere thinking that there was really some deep Spiracye's going on and you Crav that they deeded to get to the the bottom of, but Republicans of Ealth Rseriously retreated serially retreated to ground. That just add, we don't know a lout of facts about yet sort of as safe harbor and now that lateest safe Arbour as like, no one is heard directly from tromp thing: no qui Brokwell. I means you hain't saying there is a Quoiod Proquest one of the things that comes to mind as the Bessis weak as progressed is Youl Cald. How Republicans handled the Gret Cavinal flight. Oh, and he ought to be Savi, similar situation which the initial Revily loaf really bad by there. There is a moment where it was not Clearr Trumklwes in a stick, Woth bred cat and all and was Nhot Theatre, Seid, AU, Republicans of Ritistic with them ah that this might be a iknowah knot. Sprinkerd omation went down in place. Ltogether- ah they
together. They they they handled across his anination. That lazy, four really well. Ah, you have been brought their aging. Were not seeing the Aggy for a president or from a Leround in the White House or from Acgressional ubliconsiscuted three examples: president should not be watching the hearings. It we is not a color commentator he's not play by play. He does. Do himself any favors when he does this sort of thing you saw Shifmate. Deal about this as witness intimidation than an alasta. Present really needs a William bar Tighe figure for Impeach He needs somebody T a Yor WAR ton Consecliary, something he you know who he trusts and who Atcan be a trusted authority say. Look here is our unifyed message on this. Here is hower wenecause. You could tell everybody Tagp. The bottom is winging it ah,
It is not reassuring when Pambondi the former tree general flors Wen, brought out to anemy. One of the the administration spoke people on us. Ther talking has ance. She points out that somomon was only ambassardo, you traned for a short time. No he was never abassar eucrete. He was under secretary for to get him. Thet was an ambassador to you and Ethehoss. Ah, I Devinuo Kniws, that is doing it- everything he Uvanly can really lookd bad whenever they had already heard somlums in a flit. Ah I different tone to what his written testimony was when our rlace is prevcessilated new in his open state and said to jusomland you're, going to be attacked to day Indeed, he was not from this happen to do to seem to expect going into this ah Egirn who's got a Jums out on me is. Is there's this? Ah reflexitive light swich manner in which people in this can become hero, a villain, Lo Kes up until now's I Willok, Sote and said this was all for
we find it was all these other describe and state Department. Folks, silence said there was no good rogue woke someone's that everything is fine and then all of a sudden someone comes out is washing up. The idea Ducimento Qut for a quontomy. I do think us Bikrowhile and then poke it out in so What was said, the Washington examiner is running piece of SIG. Did you notice how expensive his watch is? Now? I'm glad that I said off like four different corner post about the value of watch. It yesterday but it's con a struck me as Ouh Silens, Villai now and but an evastation thus go lhets go ah, which I think wil erratic and frantic and desperate end on its is not good and gois that the president is not doing himself any favors he's not being served well and Ith You can see a lot of house. Rer are Justrun a winginess to do their best. Yet changing servicef they just they just don't seem prepared for this proln. The every rough process or grnup-
to try. I know youre, not the world's foremost impeachment obsessive, but you do think a lot about and care a lot about due process. What do you make of this Emic that we have now so sonland has a direct factorale dispute with my pence about a very important question. Pompeio denies what Simon said about him a someone pointed out at I much or exact what the nature of this conflict is, but Somoone said something as sort of crosswise with John Bult, ohly, probaby the bolt dressed him down out or not or FE on a hill or Somebony else said that the bolt was very angry with Sunline when he put this to the ukranians in it in a meeting that they daiy to do the investigations and cuce
meeting short and some, as I know, a great deal of just ended. We all did pictures together afterwards, so it is in that respect raised a lot of questions, and these are all people and make mulvaney is also in this pocket who have first hand. Knowledge of what trumps state of mind was. What is directive were, and Democrats have choice. They can either go and try to get these guys, testimony which certainly will take weeks in or at best, perhaps months cause it's gonna be litigated because they have colorable tourney client in the case of radiological or execute privilege. Claims are testing odium, immunity claims which is with Bolton's pursuing. Ah so they go. Do that and get off their time line a or do they just do cut a quick and dirty and leave out of this impechient case, which they says in a very grave and consequential all the first douwn
witnesses without really a college. Try of of trying to secure their testimony and the so vis that, with that Does that affect you their decision on way, the other that will affect the way you view Impeathent Wone way thither. I think the Democrats have two let this play out and bringing as many people as possible- and I find I find some of the parties am talking points around this confusing many people on the right arebored by it. And they argue probably correctly that we already know what's going to happen and they see Mirritated, therefore, that we have to go through it, but they ternative would be for democrasts is summarily dismiss the entire investigation part and moved to a vote, and if they did, that Republicans would say quite rightly well. This is
the way we do things in America,. Similarly, Republicans seem to want this to proceed more like a a trial. It's not one but Republicans who say that we should nevertheless keep basic standards of du proses are correct. And yet they are not themselves behaving as one would during a trial, and it's probably the case that one can never behave as one would during a trial in what is an intrinsically political process. What is Ther necessarily partisan process? I would be quite happy for the investigation stage to go on four, a lot longer, perversely enough, because we know
What's going to happen, I think there are a noted last week some reasons why Democrats may not push to bring in the most useful people. If, for example, a court decided that those people didn't have to testify or could not be subpoenaed, it would damage the Democrat's political case, but I'd like to see them up there. Nevertheless, the whole thing is less than ideal. Let's say the republican have been seriously hampered and will continue to be seriously hampered by their refusal to take the avenue hair that's open to them, and this is because President Trump has refused to tae tavenue, which is to say this happened. We know that from the transcript we don't need commentary from others to know that it was bad not impeach of ble. It's not career ending and this
a circus, not a necessarily my view. I don't know what my view of conviction is in all honesty, but I certainly think that this process is LE. Man, but it is the only coherent position- that's available Have you ally with that republican failure? The failure of the demo, to wait until something like this happened. If you add in the fact that Democrats have been talking about been exactly the same way since he was inaugurated as Kal pointed it's always now. We finally know now we find then now we finally new in two thousand seventeen we finally new in two thousand eighteen. You have a recipe for confusion and for partisanship and for mass, which is where this is headed, and I think yesterday's testimony
posters Yuval Levin. This idea that whatever happened to come to this presidency will be as damaging as possible to the country, and it's easy as possible for party sounds to interpret. However, they wish given the cool and give him the totality of the evidence. My view is that there's no doubt Trump did Umway, what he's being accused of but Somon said two things at the same: timehe that every one was in the loop. It was no secret, Miss one Crow, he said. Was there a quid procro? The answer is yes, and then he said two past two. We calls four, but he also said that Trumpe told him. No quid
quo and that last spit's Gana be enough for a lot of people who will now insist till they're blue in the face that sommoned has not added to and two and made four, but is added to in two and made five Wen, not looking here at an impeach They will be decided by an omniscient being and were not looking here at an impeachment that will be superintended by a judge. He asked me about tyue process. This to be superintended and decided by the public, and I think both sides are doing a good enough job at muddying the waters, not the Democrats necessarily within this impeachment process, but in the two years that preceded it to make what is supposed to be a sombre process, look anything but
and certainly not resemble any sort of model. We would want to apply anywhere else in our public life. We mycoatz the via the Trump statement at the end of this affair, to Sonon in there's no quit brokwos a I Republicans now I'r making be deal that and that assumed is, could be hard for them to be contradicted, since no for first and people got at the show up, but it's just as hard a fathom where this came for he didn't come from trot who, who ordered the hold up in four hundred million dollars of of a tevents aid that h d endure appropriated by Congress and that it hat approved by the certified by the Penagone, if not the president, and why was he doing it? If it wasn't part of this push for vestigate
lays on the record himself in the CALL Referrin Tila YE. I it's n, not it's not a tenable defense. You can, I suppose, Retro actively construct a theory of Trump's mine. In which it's not quid pro quo, he's merely you know he's asking for something because he hasas this intensely personal view of how diplomacy works and how a you know, I'm I'm. The leader of the the ry country were doing something good for you, where friends, You know, allies of sort were about to send you all this money and aid Ahm and you enow, your newly elected kind of populous figure- and you said there is corruption- I want Yunivistic Y Cruptes, he can imagine smind, maybe he's he thinks there isn't a quit procobaanin it Heis, really saying like you owe me one right
Emin EI? So I I just don't think this is at all a plausible defence. I haven't thought I, since we had the rough transcript of Thee call. I I have said this looks like a quiproco. That's how foreign relations work when you have a patron state, Likethe United States in a clien a nation like you cram. Ah that exist in this absurdly Oddn a non equitable relationship in the world. So I just I don't know how long I mean Trump has gotten very far by stubborn and dog, a ret maybe that'll work from his time. I just don't py it myself. I will to me, Jim, but I've been wrong many before with his this kind of thought about Trump. This This seemed to class a case where a conventional version of the scandal, a defense would have been better, which is you do
ea of the conical internal review. You get get it out it a a interal Rlase a lot of it. It I'll give you give Yousolf the bat beside of some Judg calls. Obviously, but YO push it out. You have a horrible week. You know it's thir modicular for a couple days dominates the Sunday shows and then some contrition e- oh it it doesn't have to be a bit all, but it you know this wasn't grade. I got to caught up in this idea this. This was something important to pursue. I can see how people understand I how people view it now is as having been improper, and then you, like hear's my billion our Infrostructire plan Nancy, that's silly jasper to work with you on, ah that that would have been better than than what he's doing now, but would he think Not I hurt you anyhow Willy Traditional Washington behavior. This is the ultimate moment to deploy the passive voice. Mistakes were made.
Of a reached. Action that will take it. Wut, o her to say by who or in HO to these bad things happen. Did we regret iso much and hand over there. No ah n, doesn't do that fer, a lot of days for YO know, buy Hou' trumps grat because he's noting a Washington inside but look the reason, and ton inciders have done these sorts of things for such a low times and very oll. They work or least they presented the Vestido response you could have when you put your hand in the good your hange's Calli. Could PE jar for Strust's argument is that no Myan does not look pijar, they doesn' doesn't look like this. These only be good cookies. I don't you like. I've, never had a cook you my life. I don't you know what a cookie is. You know you're the one who stay stealing the cookies. No, that's the deal rattack an intalocco staff am vidias diving. The other one of the time wriggle Alpestough. Is it from the very beginning? Yes, ye of course Democrats would going ouftor the sky OM. The very beginning is one of the reeds that ovel one the most,
The reason it's not not doing more, it's worth noting the while he was five thirty eight had earlier today. Number of people going, the other aggregation of all the colds Taover. People who want to see Trump, not just im peach but removed from office, is like forty six point, one per cent a that that as ha, Ah, there were people who don't want em. Is it forty five point, five or four thiflitng water? Some lie, that's o! We as a Bett one percentage points separating them and removes actually a point higher. That's bad, but then and said it was about form of four percent or five percent a couple weeks before in starts. So these hearings are not moving the number os the right direction for Democrats and I tent know whether it's because the testimony generally is a that compelling. It certainly doesn't seem ah it it goes on TU's this thing as a dragging on day after day- and I tat been other look without nine witnesses this week and a her falling twitter. Everybody always seems a reacting just Threathlessly of Yok. Did you see to day what happened
an Tenges TI, go it's oways some person from the State Department, Bisus Ayatro, tit this most of us, a gag that open script. Where you see how the moment salinity brings up the javelins drops as it like. You do me a favor. It must ACO going Lifleji Agirn and was second Equiperabook, a decided he's his can Ean. You know this tooth and nail all the way to the end, the gratironius wile one argument you Coan deploy when people said o Trump is a russian spy or he's been penipulated by puden all hese ears. Well come on we'll kind. A russian DAO I said, decides to send military age. You Cray Frightus was the entra, this Furthyr earliness in Mistration, Wis, O K, clearly he's not on the side of boot and clearly he's not some yo siberian candidate, instead of a bensurian Canad or something like Taklio course. Now we see Trump was never let into it. A tro was never that big ad, an enthusiast of in various other articles, have said that trumpets had this Amw
ness towards Youcraining or suspicion towards Ecratas lay in getting into the crowd crowds, Xturbed werbeing there, an oft, the stutle DE, I think might be Michael, had said. As so forgive me for coting. Him back to all of you ar me of the trunk trompsposition position and the tromp etmonstration position often overlap, but sometimes they are directly untragactory. Sir x, a question to you Thill. I cook, on this rate the damage to Donald Trop from Gordon Sunland's. Testimony zero will be forgotten by next week to ten leaves the subtline of case for Trump a pile of rubble. I think it's a turn
That's nocause! There isn't a case against Jrumpets Sus that he wasn't able to add anything, but I couldn't have added, I couldn't also add to and to and make four and I I am able to read poles that seemed to show support for impeachment dropping a little bit special of Mong Independent sight. I think the ancers probably to, but that is in no way to say that solence testimony shouldn't have bolstered the case against Trump Medie im seeds, just a Mibe three. Ah just his testimony was probably the first a kind of surprising moment or a moment where we didn't no one to expect any wasn't a surprise, Intrumps direct Eno fever and direction so that
I think just that as a matter of drama. Ah, as a matter of play, writing am works against the President TIM Gerty. Ah, when it comes to YO damaging the counter narrative being put out by the White House at about a nine but in terms of doesthis change, anything interms, the actual beef and process is about one or two. So, as so often happens, an were exactly Michael is. I need to hold up the notes, like the the Noco's copy. I had a three down here before it. It hurts Yeno it knocks out the the idealer. Wasn't some Quildbrok WAL
and in play, although it his strongest on the visit rather than the ascurity aide, put some wind in the sails of Democrats. But this thing is basely baked at the cake hisbin baked in the cake. Since the inquiry started, I believe a trump absent some earth shattering event one way or the other is getting impeaced by the House and did by the Senate so Fr Gouvont, let's hear from our sponts or this week, which his donors trust the tacks friendly way to simplify our charitable, giving without compromising your values but af Y Ar N after you, a loyalist of her of dellers trusts or see them in our magazine over the years. It's a great partnership because donor's truss was built with our listeners in mind. People who believe that free enterprise, limited government are edrock values worth fighting for Thor as the time to take a closer look at their doughtar advice fond and see how I could benefit you if you aren' familiar with Doughter Vize Vaun's, think of it
Yourpersonal charitable Saviis account it's a great tool for maximising your charitable tax bet, efits well, offering a simpler way to give and Daughtar Trus is more than a way to give it's a partner that understands your values. It works with charitblegivers of all sizes across the country. The team from dughters truss will work with you to protect your charitable legacy. An help achieve your charitable goals, so you might be considered your doughter of vice fund anyway, why not partner with the fun that Tmam? is your values for nashma, ERS Liszers, that's Doter's, trust, see why, with a free prospectus, go to donors, trust dot or flash eddtors, that's donors, trust dot, org, slash editors and check it out. So speaking of fre enterprise, linted Govermet Charley, have they another
dark, tritle to Fuffle a upsetting the conservative world this time caused by Marco Rubia. Ah, who gave it a speech onsoccalled common, good capitalism? Ah, that's an Ribio in the speech it drew on catholic Social thought to make the case that conserves need to be more focussed on the welfare of workers and not entirely trust, just just the market forces to promote the interests of, or si. Imagine you not offence, I'm not that I like people putting other words before capitalism. In the same way, I don't like people pidding other words before justice they tenter negate or dilute the word or than inform it mockery.
Has proven himself a little pret in hasn't. He in one sense his ideology, doesn't matter great deal to me because I think he's goodat his job as one of my senators and he usually votes in a way of which I approve, but I can't help but notice that be year, philosophical malliability that smarked out his career is accelerating. He was elected as a tea party candidate. Now he's a what I would cynically say. He sow whatevers adjacent to the current Transen, the G p, which is to be expected by a partition, but is not you until you pay to be admired her. Yes, those who have heard me talk about this before will assume that I am opposed to the framework Rubio laid out- and I am
I am also annoyed by the lack of specificity that he marshalled in its defence, I'm having Williamson David Hassan II in thinking that, at least for federal legislators, market review is a federal legislator that does not exist or responsibility to determine what the ends of the purposes of the market are. That's just not why we have federal government marker reveals job is to protect the building block. The basic building blocks of american National Security, the operation of the Marketr, individual liberty, equality under the law so on and so forth, and to leave the big. Why questions the shaping questions, the questions of meaning to a million different other people who are not senators, people, families, communities, church groups, businesses, towns, if necessary, so forth. Now,.
There is an irritating tendency to characterize what I just said and I'm sure we're about to hear this ass market fundamentalism, But it's really no such thing. It is the coin of phrase, Phrasemarket Structuralism to say, as I do, Ayas Cavan Williamson does to say, as David Harsane has then Opposis EN to Marca Rubio and Michael and Doshholy and Elizabeth Warren at the far end of it that we don't want to hear grand plans or sweeping schemes from our national officials is not to say that we are not interested in plans or schemes per SA. That the accusation is wrong:
to say that it is not the role of the federal government or mark a review is a part of it to ask to what end is not to say that that question doesn't matter all that it. It can't be answered its instead to say that we don't want one conception, single conception of virtue of the common good to be imposed from on high. Now I don't want my bank, to care about how I spend my money. That doesn't mean I don't care how my money is spent, or I can't imagine carrying how money is spent. This is a question of one's appropriate role and I think market Rubio is indeed joining many many other politicians in conceiving of himself incorrectly. And then I was you I would go ahead is with speech. I care a great deal about what my wife says. I care about what my neighbors say. I care what my friends say: my phone
they say. I have a wall. People at National reviews say I care about what is said in America in General Bhut. I don't want the people who have the power to regulate or to protect that speech, to have strong opinions on him or to want to shape it. I want them to do the basics, keep the speech free, keep the speakers protected and do nothing else besides. I want them essentially to be agnostic, and so I think, with Marka Rubio and CO, and the economy
A broad agnosticism should be the approach. There is there's a great deal of meaning to be found in America. Dignity which is one of the buzzwords here, is, of course, a worth while Goll virtue is to be encouraged, but it can't- and it shouldn't be, the preoccupation of the people who run Washington and I see them in croaching upon the people whose ROE it is. Markarubia has a lot of things to do: foreign policy, trade policy, enormous debt, a integrative that judiciary, the impeachment of the president and the thing is, with the exception of the Thejudiciary, which
Draget on he and others seemed to ignore all of those are the basic areas arm with cabin. I think they should be a little more humble than to try to remake the inside of the country presumed to speak for hundreds of millions of people when they can't even get the basic's rope there. Rits the shots of a fired and be D' yi. Think you put been put somewhere, the spectrum with them and Quitthe Runizaur and Ha Summern? She was on the far end as e desired. Uis among the spectrum am as Kevin puts it a no. This is vacious Hashism, says a b. The basis of Fashest economic thinking Ah, had SHO lay just just disappoint of information. He did not say that you know in Herila as Tay, he described corporatism, which is
literally in economic terms the Foundation of Fashe's economic thinking. Well, yet Ye H'T LAT's not get Intoll exactly grammatically. What Caven was saying? Ah conservatives in the United States and in the United Kingdom and other countries are going to have a political problem in the future, which. That a rising generation of young people are getting married less, they don't own Holmes, The'Re, not advancing into amownership at ts, ah, in a way that is, looks beneficial to conservatives, who tend to be the party of home, owning a family orranted people. Ah it's been yo know any you Kay people try to address. It am with a view towards the the future of these.
Of the Tory Party, I think marker Rubio and others sense a danger in America that you know maybe conservative thinkers like Charlie and Kevin think heyy there's just been this massive loss of virtue in the country, somehow or, and that's why people are deciding to you know and that's why these communities are more more marked by despair, drug use, suicide deathspae. Alcohol related diseases are going up the rate that they're going up there's just a mass of lus of virtue. They have to burn out repent and build better lives for themselves on their own that the only slution is cultural mark. Rubios
common good capitals, IND speech. It is a little short on prescription and it takes a couple of it. Just opens up a couple of avenues: one of them I think charley- would agreeis legitimate of looking at trade policy and whether, ah the balance the? U s us struck in its trade with China is in fact in our national interest, and that has to be judged ah by its effect, not just in raw terms of Gd P, but I think it has to. You can judge that effect on the composition of an AR economy, a Markrubio talks, specifically about strategically important industries and resources like rare earth, minerals and things like that where he thinks the? U S, has a security interest in am having a foothold in that industry in not letting China dominate certain supply chains and industries. I totally
with that am, but I think thee larger question isn't am, I think, tha. The thing that is setting people off is when Markarubio talks about stock by backs being a problem about companies, basically, american industries, reverting to stock by backs or holding and sitting on enormous cash reserves, and he sayng that's a signal to the market. These ontrepruners don't know what they want to do with the money. They don't know, they don't have ideas to invest in. They don't have ideas for expansion, that is, they are basically signalling to the market that they don't deserve to hold this money and yet they're holding it.
I'm. I don't know what policy remedies he would really use to address that effectively ahm, but I do think this is going to be a problement preoccupies. Conservative parties, We have the increasing number of downward mobile voters coming into the party and they are not. It doesn't appeal to them to just say: hey you're, free paint. You know, there's great gig economy, jobs out the for you to become your own kind of personal octipanorian, I'm there Ter was some attachment politically in this class too.
A wage earning economy with long term jobs and queer prospects that provided long term security, a long termability of people to plan for their family and if I hot dos Mackarivius that has anything to do with that at all. You mention Travius as his frogative. He mentioned stock by facts. What was the plan? Well, he that he is not, I mean he's, I would say his plan in this speech was pretty small ball about. I reforming the Small Business administration. You know to do a little bit more manufacturing. Ah that is Smab. Ball am no. There are tons of little agent items out there. I think Orancas is kind of ed in like a valiant knight to defend Mark a Rubio, because Orancasses Seve ideas for reforming the way. Labory law were
In order to change the relate between labor unions in the United States, a two employers to a more co operatve lrather than a directly adversarya roll. That's something I do ntwo as well am, but you know we only have one thinker thinking about this. I I just. Ye, be I think it's a little Und. I think Markeruby was a little under cooked, but I don't have a problem in principle with the idea that the U S, has laws that shape the direction of the market. We already have his lows in the book I Think necessarily asking questions about whether they serve the common good is a demand for a great deal
intrusiveness in the law, its more asking, whether the laws we have actually conduce to a market that works for ah the political, stability and prosperity of the country. So Jim a likely. His lord undercooked, which I think is, is true of most of these, a a kut of firm, new traditionalist, Sterm of National. Servative or populauce, where you wene to call it fates yer the Tucker monologue. They got so much attention the sore of a Mari Apiecei, the hole post, liberal thing and annow this, but I I welcome thee. The Kickinma tires idiologically in thinking the stuff through and having af a big debate about it. I wish there were more a specific sphisiye
you get get to any these things, an others huge claims made and then Okasge at something in the reformacons of Enormashus, supported for ten yearss heartily. We, after AM yejumminin, almost Ohow long to say, Rich Kif, a ha let out and run a friendly one. Dow notes, yes, but I think it clearly markets the best way to to organize capital. There's no doubt about it. It doesn't mean it's perfect, though it doesn't society and government. Don't I Havesome roll and setting the rules of the road and making up for a deficiency and as long as those changes are constitutional and undertaken with consent that they, the legitimacy and Aur Totalitarian, in my view, even if they are mistaken or a wrong in Palsy, Terps ah, when you look at the Rubiof speech and a contrivieing, my editor's pack, Michael Rodabeta, similar theme speech from Jo Hawley O.
Pepero. Every one of tee thinks you're Fort Yily's law. The first Thile Firstaff has always diagnosing the problems in America and both of these has are really goodraining. They dreally do Wright about these forgotten community euse, a rising suicide race in Antrovediction and of ease real being serious problems that anybody who wants to leave. This cooker should be thinking about so you're, the first tatulet he had a boy and then the sacnd half is only affears, my solutions and Never is always a lat noodle, a Lis, Ire as a de sa be YO. The Fielsop is Alla a philosophical element and particular with Rebus Doingas, the Fiolshop Wol. Then Compass, the political Elmenther has separate the philosophical element, always works better and jist, is always some person of hanging owat. It's not the nineteen eighs. And a whole bunch of of thinkers on the right had and Thekon garment of Yo Nowh.
All the problems of Rond rain was facing in the Lasa if Hise early, Ates and that shakes so much of modern conservatism. What we fixed a bunch of those problems so in is Bihre, Ah, both their states were formed to certain extent a yoing, and so we got different problems to day, and If your name is if conservative writer and take your name starts with r roster, remish rayon and you wish ah, do you probabl, Lhe Redy about this say Hant YE? No, what we really do need canotate this. We had a figure out of to. We have our principles. We can't Ebre runing the same platform. We can't keep uplying the same solutions woth his probles. What we need to do that or by the ways on hearing this stuff, I don't GEEP Wi the Uly cringe I've, the remindef yo so of the sounds a bit like George Stovnebush, compassionate conservatism. People are her good MIS got a move. Oh
all of the city of faith based initiatives, nows TE. This whole idea of federal government has to take a slightly broader roll to dress, really big serious problems in sire gietings CAT, a Jo Alingbeis that this is polital element. The as Thes not Hoises has come from. Our Peruvia was still a fearly young man's Farst Presention at his go and who some day might water rufrepresent again. Ah an what he's trying to do here and what a bunch of canans and Preditriyg pretty much since election night Fwen sixteen is figure out how you merge Trobism with conservatism that existed before that an apressiuret will, by or Erybody else Benes the moment they figure that out- politically confound me, the ah the formula, her altery, you will w inherit the party from Trump. You will bring the trumpet voters Ye'Ll, he got alleyse, never trumk eyes were Ben complained about it. The whole time everybody will march happily together cause will have a little bit of colony, IND a little that a column be and everybody in the oppose scrape. Why
Find er really lacgkhing about us as I that first half those speeches are always this all the different ways which were a despairing society. We have e cares. Things are looking great miserable. We lost meaning to our lives. Are all these indicators? Thof families going down the churches are going downward to Unicessie Communeral Desperae to connect. And here is sow. He can fix it by changing these federal palses. And Ou Ust in your chair Bo Mo guise. Changing Policy is not of Vixebr I thought I don't to my Sei. I seservante, I know he's got the best of intentions, but thorough policies cold be tweating, Ot Thear around the edges. The that the only way you fix the culture is to face the bultr. The child has glad I just want to know. Then I started this topic and I said that I expected I would immediately be told that to
bent from the idea that federal official should be fixing our issues and that they can fix our ishes. It would be compared to not wanting to fix the issue. I said that not wanting to hear grand plans and sweeping schemes from Marcarubia and CO would be conflated with not being interesd n plans for saying the first thing Michael said was look at these communities that are broken. Tho have drigatics on whatsoever, Tust can Cappain Willinmson, JO, say you're on your own, which is Cose to Wat, am saying I'm saying I don't want ta hear from Margheriba no want to hear from Swith Warren and I don't want to be told that we will fix the combination of problems that confronts us by tweaking the tax coes or by playing with trade or by targeting in corporation,
oh by taxing people's wealth, but we are. We do hear, though, that not just from these avishness critics, but we hear it from libertarian minded critey. That oh o we've got to ex you know. You've got to break up the traditional taxi medallion systems and allow uber, because that's going to be the greatest thing for workers is yet they want less government federal involvement. The Attaxi medallion sister was not Ferd, e run, thankfully, but if there were a federal Axy Medallian system that would be an intrusion in the market. Precisely the sort that I am saying. The federal government has no business passing o Kemmea tit's the debts. That is fair enough. I mean.
The the case. People have made are not seeing that the Tacimuline Stemis AR is is is a great system, but we are having debates about laws are going to lead to flourishing right, an I'm not like a I. My vision for this has never been like. As it's been accused, a totalitarian system of you're going to have all this meaning. It is literally just examining what the laws, what behavior, what behavoers, are encouraged by the laws we have. I I don't look at our system and say we just have some kind of pure market system that is running perfectly in any alteration to the status Woe is going to am for not is cavern. Nor do I wealliee a great deal of change just in the opposite direction, so that these questions can be answered by
other people than one president, one hundred sentates in four hundred and thirty five representatives or more likely by a few bureacrats his names that we don't know mean it that that is certainly a risk that we have to Eggance F Fergornim. If we're going to make changes such Chall, he got move out a second, but yet be saying your your you more open to station at the local and state level than at the federal level by him for three reasons. Firstly, because that's the way the countries set up and the fact that we have gone in the opposite direction to me as an act of great constitutional vandalism. Secondly, because US, if you try something at a local level- and it fails- you haven't implicated everyone in the whole country. And thirdly, because I think us with most of the problems that face Us- that the issues for example, of an employment or drug use
that we have seen are by far and away the most effectively resolved by the people who know the people who are being affected in so far as government supports the interventions. Ah by those people, it can be useful, but the further that the check has to travel the further the programme. Haster move. The us ah the program and it's not even as if that's what Marcorubio and co are proposing. There is no meat. On bone, I've heard not a single plan to help this. What I have heard is the light. Ofthe the groundwork for a shift away from the traditional model.
The traditional roll of the federal government, albeit bigger than I, would like that, is going to benefit the sort of people who will do sweeping things that I won't like, and I suspect that Michael went like and if his retric is to believed that Marcerybio Worn'T like either, I think just a put a but Tnon this Frombite by purposes what we need, the country for people down the income scale at Workingclass folks is Teap Energy, cheap housing, cheap health care, cheap education and a tight labor market,
and a culture that broadly conducive to family for formation in marriage. If we could do that, that would help a lot doesn't solve every problem, but but would help a lot and most of that wouldn'nvolve. A market solutions so of market Oran, Ed solutions, but I woild wouldn't involve it- would involve a kind of of activism because Hehave even affeared a going in a market direction. A I dheisis going Tae. Hould involve a government policy, but longer discussion am sure to be taken up a again soon at some point, exquested you, Jim Geraghty, in twenty twenty four republican nominee, even if he is not- or she is not marcaroer a Shalli will have a strong dose of their populism represented in his programme, yes or no Yes, Deba HO. How would you to find strong.
The hetle, an Tho'Lt Hi'Ll, be plain notes to the Stude eh Tikot. Yes, I think they will not because it's the right move but because, as Michael correctly notes, the political imperative is there. The party has changed, the make up of the electorate has changed and we will probably have to learn again some lessons and that we have learned before Imedy. Ah, no trumps failures will be over interpreted control. The party we returned to Steve Forbes disciples, who will promptly lose Chigin Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, ah and every major election that they are in charge of the party, for I really have no idea what the asser of this question is. It feels like the answer is yes, this moment. But if a Liz, Peporyn Ges selected present it'll be the greatest thing
Ver happened to Liberterinas, which Hod come roaring right back. I in all the opposition to her tha a aggrandizement, so I emper a provisional chip down on. Yes, just the general idea that, whatever it is, will be would be different, thanhat, a the via republican Orthoxy, a prior to trot solve I've running it along here. Let's go to the Democrack debate and the stay of the race, but do it exit question Styleso a quick answer, bananasulio of o one word answer he can elaborate, but let's do this. I, in the context of our, usual, asking of the question: ah whaters: ish OZ. Do you think Joe Biden has of winning the democratic nomination at this moment feel free to elaborate, but give us a number zerod, o Hunder
Ah sixty per cent- ah Stilla strong favor, but there's some room for somebody else, overtaking him I think, et not a grey night last night, but I also was struck by how little people were attacking him. Oh spinning your he's had several consecutive, not great debates and he's still the leader in is not used to like same place. Her talk, no talk of will and I were still talk of women Antrer still way ahead. His after him modest, the leading of Nevada is Ry sizible national Ead. Ah, this isthik, your Beo one gap after another. Lhat could do it, for him he keeps hinding in there an he still most likely got o Ivdemanodi Chicot. I don't knowh- seems indestructible he's peculiar to what And he never finishes a sentence ever the
sa room. I don't know it's true o, not that the way that Mozart's father would get him out of bed is to play seven notes of the en Sgol and leave the last one off. They would drive moots out so Zi, Comrhh ha ha ha. When I listened to Joe Bie and speak I'm pushing up, hands as, if conducting to say yes and now at another period and it ever comes and and then of course he decided to go into e the disposition is to end its appropriate hit. Women, which I don't think comes from any position of malice whatsoever, but probably from the same, the same instinct and yet, and yet he has an advantage that most of the other candidate status have, he seems to be like a boy seems to be relate above he still winning good numbers of african Americans important in the democratic primary importance in the general election. I dont know how to put a number on over. He just stays there. I suppose the word,
n that can happen, for him is that he does O k in the states he's supposed to do. Wile n Weares his opponents blow their states out. I I'm not when I write him off, even though his star is fallingi have five out of ten said Zaraskale. Fifty fifty per cent s down for you. I think you may go out about that. Lastre now I went Louer than hat, but as Lorange has fallen as fallen more than I thought she would Anso as Ye Howse GER Badon's gone up too filled E. The gap it be. U, I am to say. Fourteen per cent. Em oai always been a biding sceplay re like five, I was like Mi Pran E. I'm way up, I mean am fourteen per cent a way low in this. Fourth ar let the but I'm way up, um e, he just hasn't declined
the persistence of his national polling, lead and thee. Nobility of his challengers to begin building a. Ing coalition in the Democratic Party rein is any have to acknowledge it? At this point, however, I still think is low, because if he doesn't win Iwa or New Hampshire, I just think that he's got to start bleeding in the states afterward, even if they have lots of african american voters who for now are primed to vote for him, I'm so I don't know I just you know if boody ould ye know get a single black church to host an event for him. I might start upgrading his chances, but it's not happening and
the fall of Warren means that you know. Maybe this default choice of Joe Biden is going to come about. I I don't know it's murky to me, so I knowledge, my scale is as oft as my precentages for everyone has been too low, as I cam possible to get up to a hundred per cent. But I undercanit, except what my ah sentages. The levelli had been using, which had been fifteen to twenty for bide and saw him up. I buy Amma upout thirty per cent. I'd say I based on yet persistence of the national poling Snat sumport in his early state polling. Tell his something, and at the in the reltof, strength on Nevada and and especially South Carol,
a and the fact that he has more paths a cause. He can lose Iowa and New Hampshire an if does it respect respective ubly. He can survive if he wins Iowa and Orn New Hampshire, probably Jis Thenominee, but they could finish forth an isle and hand like forth a new hampshirelike, easily a it, really been a shedding altitude, an in those a too so I I by no means a considera message. Still on the by binsceptic part of the spectrum, but that there's clearly an appetite If not for Joe Biden. Maybe just an appetite for Joe Biden is just underestimated. It's is there, they just want bit, but I think that the balance of gravity, the Demtrict Party is wanting some who somewhat reasonable somewhat and has a better chance of winning the nomination that a Burnin Earl is Bescend
Yet one thing was worthyet, I mean you should confuse the two of them by this Poinha ha. One thing that struck as struck me is that booty judges going up as worrn as down in these early stains, and I think people have. I think people, including was with Warren, have read her support wrong. I think it is less Lefght wings poor and much more professional class support. I think this is such a great point, my going as she is gone and specified the wealth taxes she wants to impose and the other draconin measures. I think her voters are looking for. You know people to judge who has deftly shifted back toward the centre toward a technocratic, uppardly mobile appeal, and I think that's, I think, that's what's interesting.
The lad. What we thought of is like a much larger left wing coalition that was being split between Warren and Sanders as actually there's a technicratic upwardly. LE white voter that is split between Warren and Buddhajudge, all right. So before he Gil said a few other thing. So Jim E, been watching. The mandalarian mandalorian rich and dy? Yes, sah, who was Cov weeks ago? Charley talk by Disney Plus, is for Entert the kids if I got a handwritten letter, the other day from Bah Ba either the Seao of Disney Saing. He felt proud to be A the official owner of my son's childhood, ah Utd, it's Rect, dead. I say I really am enjoyin a
this show. It is a break flint eastward man with no name Sir Leon Kind of style, western setting the star wars. Universe have been as of disregarding never to upsets, they have a character who is using to be an amateur every Christmas tree is coming December. I suspect that if you're cute this, and Lookin TE in a wolmerbut. He got a flits out and- and you know Ahm, lest Sarworth Movie was E. Willy Devicen Han GY prorfurs it' us nice to watch a good well dome, shows little we'are to watch star woards wit my action and see it end. After about forty minutes or so, but the so hoarse o good, as I Hever in our Fraid, place to get together. What watch she somebody shoot. People lasers, Charlie, been enjoying the beach in winter, whatever winter means in Florida,
Esso, so it's winter here Florida, or at least it feels like it, because it's dropped down to the chilly low seventies and we have been spending our evenings on the beach which, because it is so cold, is largely desert. And I was thinking of the day how lucky we are to have this expanse of land, not the we own, on which our kids can disrun and run and ran, and we can sit on chairs and drink wine. So Michael, it's stock season, yes, stock season is upon us and what I mean by that are things like chicken stock and Turkey stock Thanksgiving is right around the corner and I past several years have just gotten in to this basic duty of the home cook of
for broasting bones and then putting them in large ts with water and aromatic vegetables and making stock, which can be converted to Sout a sauces gravies cetera for these holidays, and just there is a kind of pure joy in in brooding over a stock pot in the fall and Terseason and it fills the house up with the most incredible a smell, and it's just it is my bliss for the holiday season, wuare the. The most wofhly woolly thing. I've ever heard. You say it is my bliss what it is: a Hallemark movie, a good Lord Miiculo, as my Miss Y, Come ha, ha ha follow your bliss ey, you know.
In the Pives an your own home, I'm for ain't, a Markarubio I think, would approve all right now. It's time for editors picks Charlie. What's your pick, my editors PIC is Karlsmith's hilarious, piece on Elizabeth Warren Whom he compares to an alien from the planet, Nebulon who doesn't quite get the society around her and isn't quite sure how to pass her political ambitions, chuck it out Jim? What's you You Knoi, Sunec, ase we'd talked about a the Cous idea of Le V, common good conservatism and Alld Stup and AV really enjoyed Pat the discussion was seeting. The bases then, are I livered my Holly Michelbrinendoraty's piecesa. Just yesterday, Josh Holly Strikingd Cratigue of american life. I think ah and I don't necerly agree with everything, but I like the way he writes about these things Nobody makes me go huh,
they di not rine off this more often than envy d, and I think I willtht there is a common assessatar and draw the irony of the art from Wut. He Wen a Hpolye folks is the trancons or or perform commoner. Wheever What everyone all I possess, the arguness that I shold his country were really not doing that. Well, we got some vretty big problems that may be obscured by a blue stock market, low employment. Ah that's not with presents running off and hes very interstanding speaks, will or conservatives ah that they are not necessarily completely ah, shutting down this idea that their crolms, if the country for the sake of of a present relations reloving at the country, honestly seeing Prolms and Troi figure over Dissalva EN be Dee. What's your pick, I picked Mattie Kurrnses cover piece in the new issue, ah which it pleas Calld the tragedy of transgender kids. It focuses a
on the case of James younger, a Texas boy who is being fought over by his parents. His mother, I believes James, is a young girl in a boy's body, and his father believes that his son is a boy ah and Mattie's. Peace is sweeping, careful, ah extremely well reported, authoritative and it gets to am the heart of the story for Mattie seems to be the corruption of medicine and medical science, a by ideology, its a profound and important peace, and everyone should read it well.
That's it. For us, you Ben listen to an nater. You potgest any Rebrought, Cestry Transwisior Account of this gate without the express written permission of Nattery maazine strictly pro Hibited, his poke acidend produced by the incomparable sir, should he who makes us sound better than we deserve? Thank Charley thank Yeu, Jim. Thank you, Michael thanks to donors, trust! thanked specially to all you for listening. We are the editors say you Ex Venny Clea be Benny, clove, N, Pofo BO.
Transcript generated on 2019-11-26.