Today on The Editors, Rich, Charlie, and Jim discuss whether we’ve seen the epidemic’s peak or not, their dislike for international organizations, and whether or not Bernie’s campaign was a failure.
• Rich: John Yoo and Ivana Stradner on “How to Make China Pay.”
• Charlie: Dan McLaughlin’s piece “Whether Hydroxycholoroquine Works Is Not About Trump.”
• Jim: Kat Timpf’s piece on being quarantined.
• Rich: PB&J sandwiches.
• Charlie: His two-year-old’s pronunciations.
• Jim: Virtual happy hours.
The Editors is hosted by Rich Lowry and produced by Sarah Schutte.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Has the epidemic PETE what's wrong, with the W H, YO and Bernie Sanders out, will discuss all this more on this week's edition of the
address, Rosenberg Slurry and have joined, is always by the right, audible, Chelsea, W Cook and the siege of authenticity, Woods, Jim Garrison,
M Vd will return soon. You listening
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our idea. Geraghty were getting some glimmers of hope or some signs of light at the end of the tunnel.
They are saying at a trump breathing the other day. This was heralded last week as, what's gonna, be the worst week of the epidemic and indeed the death numbers. How had been higher than before? And quite here
lying, but their signs in New York that hospitalizations are declining, and
The case growth and nationally knock on word was hopeless
remains true or recording. On a Thursday
afternoon here, appears to apply toad around the country around thirty thousand or so new cases a day.
What makes you say? You are only one of the more pessimistic voices in all of this and
various points this week, where I felt that that surge of hope that surge of ok, maybe we ve, got
pass some of the worst of the storm. I think they were not quite there.
But one of the numbers that jumped out at me was-
some for my home state of Virginia. They expected the peak number of cases to be
around midnight. They moved it up in its based on the model to the White House,
this using the doktor books. Talks about these daily briefings free regularly booted a month. They think
did April, not mid, may, which is a very big, the upper bunch of states that had
a similar movements and, of course we are proud of the biggest. I must ask Marshall number: is that the number of expected projected lumber projected deaths,
less attractive. Always down to sixty thousand and when
we ve been saying the floor was a hundred thousand.
Sixty thousand looks like a small miracle now I'll something
jump out of us, as they are one of the obvious lilies. The projections me nothing. You know these guys are big it up as they go along. They don't know. Well, look each day you get more data
end up in a situation where you have a better sense of how this thing is progressing there are.
Still a ton of variables. The example I kept using was, you know, God forbid: it ends up in the villages or any type of retirement community
Then, all of a sudden, you have a big spike of deaths in other CIS using mathematical models, but we know each day to assess that
that having been said- and I think that's an accurate, stable w for certain parts. The country like New York City we are in-
most of it right now, for some places
that worse, maybe some wells with some ways off, but you know what they are. The worst does appear to be closer it doesn't it
liquidity, be seeing you up and up and up and up for another couple of weeks
months, and it may be something that begins to feel, if not quite like normalcy, then something that doesn't quite feel like a collar
But he could be getting here as spring starts to end
yes it. Surely I get the defence of the models and we ve had some very good and careful writing about this rubber boots
and some others, where the upward bow upper bounded. These models based on us doing nothing and I think clearly that would have been a calamity, much graven, the one with the experience
at this point, but often times it wasn't played with kind of the necessary caveats oftentimes. These numbers have been presented with a level of certainty that their
creates vulnerabilities and allow people who coup
think this has been a reaction from the beginning to say: look the the experts have full, doesn't done a sturdy yet again.
Why I understand that, but I'm not sure what the alternative was
We should always be humble when we're dealing with models. The process of modelling anything is heavily contingent upon. Ensuring that your input sock
we don't know that and upon the assumptions that you make.
We not always humble when it comes to modeling what we think is going to happen in the future. There are many examples of this in our contempt
politics, I'm not sure this is one of them, though, in that
really is no alternative here, but to try
to work out what is going to happen.
To do so with the best data, the best modeling, the best assumptions that we have and then too
proceed as if the models are correct. It
is a risk of modelling
and has been a risk of this process for
in the beginning that people will say you were wrong and you destroyed my job and I lost my house because of it. I even have suggested
I stand by it- that if it turns out that the models were on there will be a backlash of sorts obey reckoning.
Of sorts, but I'm not sure that one can see,
attaining asleep ask the government to take action and to do the best I can.
With limited information and
Criticise that government for operating according to the outputs it got from its model, suppose that the
others had said well, only ten thousand people will get it at that.
Stay true and that a comported with physical reality it would it
an absurd, of course, for the government to shut everything down well. By the same token, it
Our models are telling you millions of people will get it many
what I've we do- nothing. Tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands who die. If we do something, what do you suppose it is disposed to cite, but this could be wrong.
I think that would be a tenable position. So in
case. The humility I think, comes in when B,
Reality on the ground looks different to the predictions or when the inputs change or when the assumptions change. It is great that we are seeing the predicted deaths come down. It is great that the models look less stock in their output and of
was a humble and responsive government will react to that, but at the point at which it is agreed that
This is going to be dire. What Elsie
both to do except proceed accordingly, yeah GM organ. I hear a lot of this again, God willing, we asked pray it. So if we have people start to go down here, a lot of people are making to part argument.
That, I think, makes a lot of sense. Then you say the same people who, through four weeks ago, said
this absurd a reaction all these lockdown when it actually the lockdown, begin to then the curve on the timeframe of roughly what you'd call
does it work. We are right all along with even the opposite that that was the case, and if whereat, you know what we're rover. Four hundred thousand cases now lockdown most of the country, its easily plausible,
based on this being a layman, and I might numbers that that we were had millions of confirmed cases if we had taken these measures and and the death toll would accordingly have been much higher.
Yeah. I think maybe the best example of that is the place in the country that getting the hardest hit New York City
city has a bunch of factors that make it more likely to have a bad out
break. It is these centre of commerce for the country
tons of international flights coming and going a fascinating bit of information in the New York Times.
Here today were two separate studies lifted and said: well, actually, a bunch of the cases we ve seen. The city came from Europe
from China, which is a you know, worlds beetle,
the debate about whether in our Trump administrations decision January thirty, first,
shutting down people coming in from China that did help
that's good. You stop and some people who probably have it nor silently carriers from flying into the country back then, but by
a point. It was in ITALY by that point it was probably in Spain and France, and all these other foe,
you're coming back into the United States having clouded over there
Well, you have a lot of people densely populated living on top of each other. Lots of people
touching the same elevator button, the same railing, the stairways you know
densely populated city you're. Just gonna have a hard time catching it that have
but said buildable
Ojo really was not speaking on this in the least bit, and we a lot of time insisting go away.
Your lives for a long time as well as timelines, are put together on an arrow. Ah little while back. I think
there's a lot of criticism. We go around a lot of different people in the government, federal level, state level, local if local officials, but I think the one that kind of jumps out
was it. The plaza was saying to people. Well, if you
older immunity compromised. You should avoid crowds
but otherwise everyone a safe, and you should go about your lives unusual. Should you know gathering crowds like normally what mood is the
who does the blast you think they interact with? Does he think that there is some sort of barrier between the people weren't? You know compromised and the elderly in the rest of the population? Obviously there wasn't so you you,
look at New York City- and you have a sense of this- is how bad things could get. If people had not taken sufficient steps and you could
A New York City in every single one of these countries,
we're not out of the woods in Detroit, we're not out of the woods in New Orleans, we're not out of the woods and a whole bunch of cities across the country,
and so as much as I am please before proceeding in these numbers, we should keep in mind
This is where we are now. The storm has not completely past yet and the places where,
could spring up merely the weaker, as he was too easy? Iceland, through there was a case
in a county in two people died in Montana and accounting that a five thousand people.
Unfortunately, there is not a community reads: they are well, it's not gonna happen here last. I check that
between Wyoming and South Dakota had the fewest number of cases, you know, they're they're gonna be all
More cases of this still coming along the way it's just kind of baked in the case of this vital outbreak, I'm kind of struck by the way they look, there's theirs.
A whole bunch of bad traits trends going in the direction of the way. We cover stories in this country that, when we discuss stories in this country, the way that
most every issue, the comes down. The pike tries
it sure horned into a yes vote,
is no prob versus con red verses blue Rockets
robots. Let's get you to talking heads on cable news to argue with each other type way. I don't think that's the most edifying way to get it
bottom information we beat and a beer we accord
it is a trio. Is it? Is it the miracle cure or is it is dropping fiscally a fish tank cleaning
is any to America, Europe, particularly in medicine, particularly in the
the human body responds to stop
the answers are gonna be new. What's that answer can be complicated if a cancer cure or treatment for kids
worked on one page if it worked at everybody great, we would have to worry about that with cancer, but we do with this stuff clerk weeds, gonna work.
Some people tonight had worked for others. It probably depends on how long you ve had it. What's
state of european system? Otherwise, what your overall health
eighty of other million little factors, there's a reason. Every one of these commercial Saito ask your doctor. If this is right for you and they,
stop a brazilian at one side effects
an utter about you guys, but I'm just getting more and more frustrated by the way that every
the models are right. The models, erotic everything seems to get shoe horned into this very simplistic
wait, a binary way of looking at it, which just doesn't give you an accurate picture
what the world is going on right now, the hour of China have talked about
hi drugs. He saw him at his just at trumps shouldn't be promoted through the way he does which caught it grows, but the other hand the just that the reaction of the press and the critics that, because Trump says you should
this. No one should try. It right is, it is vulgar. Terrible's is not. Perhaps he challenge of start. Try. It see Africa, but it that the fact of the matter is Charlie. It's it is being used and is an empirical question how useful it is and whether all keep being used or not, and it really does matter what Trump says or or what CNN anchors thank doctors are prescribing us and will have more data soon and and the decisions can be made. On the basis of that, I am baffled ass. I have spent. I understand, although disagree with me,.
Argument that Trump should be less effusive about it either, because his recommendation will be taken by someone in this first country us an invitation to take it without a prescription or because he's supposed to be getting up people's hopes.
Uncouth but, as you say, the undertone here,
seems to be that way:
this showed care and the trunk
observing it or not, observing it will in some way affect the external true
the metaphysical reality. It won't the reaction of the human
body to the introduction of hydrochloric reconvene is in
no way contingent upon Donald Trump. It doesn't matter if Donald Trump,
send out loud? This is great. It doesn't matter if Donald Trump says out loud. This won't work. This is a clinical question.
It is a matter of trial and error and, as you correctly, no
It's a matter of ongoing trial and error. It's not even a hypothetical question and it's not a question
of limited resources. It's not, as if chump has said, I will issue an edict that crowds
other drugs or other approaches in favour of hydrochloric ring. He hasn't done that he can't
that. There is not a single doctor in the United States that is trying this, because the president wants him to
there is not a single doctor in the United States. I would hope who is declining to try this, because the president wants him to ask Jim noted
we have entered into this bizarre twilight zone in which all questions have to be graft around the president and the White House and our parties on politics- and this simply is not a partisan question- is, will work or it won't work, everybody everybody should be hoping
that it works? I don't care what it is. That brings an end to this quarantine and, worse than the quarantine to these death.
I don't care. If, if someone says to me, you know what you have to go outside former circle, with your neighbors and pray to John Kerry every day and add Marcie everyday goods.
I don't care, it's bizarre. It's just it's! It's a it's a it's, a bizarre reduction of of all twenty two politics, and I I just I hope we can get over it.
So, Jim speaking of tromp with disgust, Sunpath Podcast CUP couple weeks ago, he had the pumped up in his profile ratings. His rating for handling the crisis was incredibly high by,
standards, yet some ports. I think you sitting sixty percent,
for whatever reason that all that seems to have worn off I have spade opposes. We.
That show him all right about. Where he's always been around forty four percent, a lot of these surveys and have serious,
Nepal, poles now showing him under water on his response to the
rises. What do you think's going on there? Is that a reaction to conditions- and just you with
a lot of cases with had these harrowing death numbers
or a reaction to how Trump has conducted himself that these briefings that have gotten increasingly tiresome or some combination the two or something else.
Yeah look, it is both. I want to focus on the latter one here.
Several times of the last couple of days and weeks, Trump has both tweeted and gave a cottage Mick
that's about how amazing the ratings are for his daily briefings on the krona virus.
And I got a White House adviser, I'm probably never to be allowed anywhere near this White House, but I just what you wish
There was someone there to ask, Mr President,
Why do you think the ratings are so high for the day,
the corona virus. Britain briefing, do you think it's book
somebody's just thinks you're, so swell do you think, is because everybody,
thanks you're doing such an amazing job and they love
jobs, and they can't wait for you to tell Jonathan Carl he's. Never gonna make it in this. Business is only the Senor Whitehouse Correspondence, ABC News. Yet this deal
It's that they just like all. We just love when you fight with the press, or do you think most people are frightened out their minds that they are there.
What you're gonna die in their hoping, the federal government some plan to deal with it. I mean this is
picture in the and the opening. Why the week we said the transport crowing about his krona virus rigs,
He shall we give a little credit to the virus. Do could you picture George W Bush ratings for my primetime visit? My programmed time discussion were were off the charts when I spoke to the country after nine eleven like
really does not care about the stuff. Like guess what, when you're talking to everybody in a life and death situation, hell yeah, they're, gonna sit up and take notice, of course, they're gonna too.
And what are you only
unbelievably outfits, narcissist globally,
That is somehow reflected well upon him like that he was
the news and not what people you know what the government is doing and at his comments about how is your piece turned fortune and works? It is, Mr President, get your head in the game. Please
I fear the Wall Street Journal had Editorial Board, had a good at it hurriedly, where they pointed out. Like look one of the reasons people tune, it is at the other was morphology. There was more Doktor Burke's, it was just more information, but what the federal government was doing both in terms of health policy in terms
economic recovery policy like there's a lot of information that needs to get out to the public even day by day,
just the sheer numbers: the adjustment of the models,
where their seeing the most severe outbreaks where they need masks where they need equipment. You know the fact that its
much better in some places they expected. You know like book. We want to know. What's going on, we
don't want to hear him calling governors names. We don't want to hear him
getting into back and forth with various reports. I will give credit. I do think I do like it when you questions
Quarter from the year was
Phoenix Lever was reactive, urea, the trainees government and all behold. The government did have that that institution that have some investors from the chinese steel and, if you re safe to say
you're taking any money from the chinese government. You are effectively the odds of you being a tool of chinese state policy are very likely
but by large yo. This is he's, got back to being the same old trump and it's one thing when were fighting over a peach methods.
Nothing more fighting over meter
elections or even judicial fight it look, all its staff can be important lost up. This is your am I gonna die,
somebody I know, and care about going to die because of the US right. This that focuses the mind and it focuses everybody's mind except the President, who seems to have reverted to exact, same type and an persona that simply does not fit the moment at all, and that's why the numbers are going back down and it's just the people who are loyalists who were stick environment. You know trying to convince the
cells that whether seeing is brilliant leadership in a crisis instead of you now Trump Play Trop, seeing this as a media issue to be spawn instead of a life and death crisis to be managed unmitigated. Yet
early on, and I think that Sir Well said, and on the other hand, you beginning to use quenches right, see how used you all the people
when did two issues ago, for the present
ASEAN on demonstrations, response as cut a marker throughout this that you're, the? U S way of responding to things, is kind of messing up
beginning a flailing around and then just overwhelming the problem with resources with technological innovate.
Can seems as though, perhaps that's what's happening here in us too early to
conclude, but certainly in New York, it looks like the the potential that everyone was was focused on and wanted
so desperate to avoid of the hospital system getting completely overwhelmed, wound and running
The ventilators is just very likely, not gonna happen,
Iraq has fed sent ventilators to New York. State, didn't need em sent ventilators to New York, Como Ray
allocated ventilators within the earth from places that didn't need them to the real hot spots of Saint Time, felt the lockdown seems to be knocking down hospitalizations, so it may be that were were muddling through this. At the same time, people including the trumps, done a poor job, of course,
Both could be true, I say, could not can are both could be true.
And I think one reason why chums behaving in the way that Jim is,
driving on other than that. That is who he is and what is
interested in is that, after a point he is playing second fiddle here because he's not sending epidemiologist he's not a doktor he's, not an expert
The role that the President plays in these sorts of pandemics is different than the role that a president plays in saving. Accordant
son of a war and not a trump, must my sense that
It did failed to me at the beginning of this week,
as if we may be turning a corner. I find it hard to
Imagine turning a corner took me by surprise, as everyone else, and it went on
It's gone on unease going on longer than I imagine anyone else anticipated at the outset, but there are a few things that happened at once. The market jumped great deal. The numbers were revised downwards and Andrew Kerm. I said that, after all, it looked as if New York's medical facilities would not be overwhelmed. Not touch would on that one and the numbers were not revise down a little bed. At the beginning of the week, Texas went from six and a half thousand anticipated death to just over two thousand as a big job. That's a very welcome drop. If that comes to fruition,
that's four thousand families? It won't lose somebody this enormous Florida was revised down and that the national numbers were revised down across the board to the tune of tens of thousands of what's the opposite of debts life's survivors,
if it did feel as if maybe something a changed, or perhaps the model had been wrong or dare I say that our response, what we talked about this incessantly here,
this is the problem. Is the white who k bug potentially
work at star wars, decisions get taken. All these jobs are lost, his heartbreak is yielded all this money is spent and
What was the aim is achieved perhaps were beginning to see the stuff.
Of it? Of course, if we are, there will be no common problems from it. Amidst the joy of fewer people losing their lives, it will become more difficult to convince people that any subsequent steps are necessary, if indeed they are.
And we could then be in the middle of a tug of war where one side says where we need to reopen the country because we're on a downward path. This is,
going away. We ve done what we wanted to do, and the other
Side is saying we need to
mitigate against a secondary outbreak against a resurgence a little bit of evidence from Asia that that that maybe not just like leave it inevitable
But why does feel a little bit like return in the corner of the moment?
ex a question to you here and don't look at this through rose colored glasses at all costs near
city, as as it had a new high deaths just yesterday, the date for such shed, Cuomo ordered are flags,
flown at half mast, the nuts
nationally protest. Podcast were bumping up against two thousand everyone's tragedy.
The sea uniquely cruel disease at separate loved ones. From the families at their at a moment of great, honest and and of death, and that's just a terrible tragedy but
this point. Are you a relative optimist or relative pessimist about the course of this epidemic? In the? U S:
you I'll give you different answers different times a day. I think what is on my mind at this moment is a report from the Korean Centre for Disease control that talked about not
infection, people increasingly viruses you catch, your body pulls up the everybody's. You can get it again and that's what everybody was hoping is the case with the corona by
scooby. Nineteen Sars Sylvie too, is apparently the official title there that the urban reverting to using what they are now thinking as medical re activation of virus and its neo. The idea is that you're you get the virus you're sick,
Your body develops the anti bodies to fight it off. You get rid of it, but you don't totally get rid of it.
And so that the virus appears to be dormant, yandah testing negative cause.
Still in your body, but it sold smallest. I do it and then at some point
your immune system and if it gets lazy or just stops being as effective, adequate flare up again
goodness is nobody's dying from this second case
that this second bout, but it does indicate the perhaps if you catch it, you recover
maybe you're not as immune as we all hope. You're gonna be the second phenomenon which is of a frightening. We ve had this huge.
Argument about, if you die of something
some one of your other issues, whether it you know you ve, got cancer treatments, ya, high blood pressure diabetes where these other factors and you die, but you and you die with krona viruses.
The core of our skilled yours at one of these other factors well trained CDC, is pointing out they have some people, but generally elderly, where they beat the growth of our
but then, a couple days later, a week later, they die of this other factor that, with their life, there was attacking their health.
Could be the growth a virus, and you may not be out of the woods when it comes to threats to your continuing to be on this earth with the rest of us. So I put me as mildly pessimistic. I think we still have a long road ahead of us for all of us.
Charlie relative aftermath, throughout the pessimists relative optimist, I relative optimist as well
It seems as though the worst has been avoided and New York
it seems, as though
we're not can see some other outbreaks we feared
swear, though, obviously losing
and Michigan are still in in the thick of this, hopefully
changes, seasons and the warmer whether will offer a respite?
well. Sometimes soon there was a medium essay that got on thirty million views.
Is there something a couple weeks ago called the hammer in the dance making? The case?
that's, as as the thing was virus going up. You just hammer it down. I was locked downs and then then what you ve done is is bought time to figure out how to engage in what the author called the dance.
Witches is how to return to normal. At the same time,
I mean it's all sorts of means not to let it get out of control, again.
It seems as though we
successfully dropped the hammer happily stir again, let's hope and pray,
that's true, sell its paused before he hit are next topic here. I just wanna a plug and ours newsletters. If you are not subscribing to gems more
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could afford it to him, got an email from a friend saying you guys got a nominate Gary for Pulitzer, as his work has been.
So I saw and viable during this crisis. I would not get your hopes up Jim
baby you're, is likely to win a Nobel Peace Prize is a politician, but you you just done fantastic work and told told you that repeatedly on his part, gas also offline as well, but you're missing out, if you're not getting the job in your inbox, also Kevin Williamson,
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Tuesday so gym at continuing plot line here is China and its role. In
the virus and related Lee, the role,
of the World Health Organisation, which has been absolutely disgraceful, Dave and, in effect, were
with China to minimize the danger
This virus as a spread around the world. You you had the W h, YO praising the transparency of China,
At the very same time, China was engaged in this desperate cover up. You had a w h. L, accepting China's word at the beginning that there was
human to human transmission and then saying that there was only a very limited human to human transmission.
We had, the debate show warning against travel restrictions. At the same time that China had locked down, whew Han and who, by a province, you can still fly out of those places, and the debate shows that that's that's fine would be a terrible thing if you stop, people from flying out of those
places. So what do you make of it? You now I love the rush Review House editorial denouncing the World Health Organization. I think it is overdue, am frustrated, we're not seeing this
not just from us, but of institutions like the one you know washed and post New York Times. Sir look at this is something there should not be a partisan split on it
Two did a general sense that you know the World Health Organization simply took China's word for it on a whole. Bunch of information
seeing the meme. You had a job well done:
health organization- you really only have one job that it's it's right there in the title World Health Day, it's not World Alfin
these public relations organization. There's no, you know you're, not really part. If we wrote diplomacy units
stand up against the ethnic stir.
Typing, and all these other things seem to really irritate the World Health organization. At the beginning of this outbreak donor, it helps it
they're right. Nato underline in red. If you need to rich. I also notice that it was not that long ago that the World Health Organization had a baby thanked Lady Gaga for her.
Efforts with that World Health Organization also, I believe, had made Robert Mugabe one of its ambassadors. Early arms was a TED rose. The current director general
It's the sort of thing that got even just in Trudeau to say this is a bad move and sounded like a bad joke when the Canadians are critic,
eyes again, international organization. We should all sit up and take notice, but I think what really jumps out of me
in addition to jail. Echoing China's lies a petition to you're putting out statements. That said, we don't believe there's any human.
Transition. What doctors on the ground and worn were saying, there's that there is human to human transition. Late March, you would figure Gregg. This would be
Accountants have their busy season rotated again. It was running it either. Against revoke all my praise, you call me a Gregg ground, my God,
What progress is this? The gods areas the paltry asked you
I was building a whim one now women now just for insultingly looks, went away. The repeal officer would have looked really good to my time magazine two thousand six men of the year
for that. I have but it man anyway, who am I I'm trying?
Why am I here? I was on this great rant, because I was going to point out that the March, where you'd think this would be the case,
he is too busy seasons where the World Health Organisation, the
World Health Organization's director general found time to do a needs to grant live with provocative Oprah. You may have noticed her this actress from LA com
the co and and various other one, various other movies and tv shows now?
I'm not gonna lie. How did she have to hang out with provocative Oprah I'd want to do that too, but I'm not the dry
to dread rolled the World Health Organization and you'd like to think that they be doing more important things than doing web chat with celebrities, and things like that. This is that is completely fallen down on its core duty and we need-
we always in addition to gear withdrawing your support, we would get it. Some would argue. We came to this the middle, the crisis. It is safe to say
World health organization we'll let ideology and national loyalty get in the way of its assessments of diseases, making it useless even more than useless, harmful to world health
that we need to find some other one puts a bit that makes health number one
allow an institution like China part two partaken this, because they are proven to view co, opt large international organizations to echo their propaganda. Whatever pick the message
one of the fourth try another outrage here is: if there's one country that has gotten this right, even more so than South Korea, its Taiwan, yes right, little, Taiwan right there and extra talking at these things.
The most vulnerable and they wanted to early lockdown implemented all sorts of measures. Could they sent a couple doctors to war
and figured out what was going on and then and then didn't believe, a word that the chinese government or the W h YO, said
Believe none of their assurances and just
to all these practices they ve developed having to deal with the other viruses in the past, and the W Cho excludes Taiwan from any of its workings at the bed.
There has of aging and a fact this this sir scoundrel Tedo, so that the head of the W H, YO a day or two ago didn't denounce China in a four lying about this first lack trend,
Parents d: he wanted this bizarre rant about how he's been subject to racist attacks emanating from supposedly Taiwan
One of the reasons that I am reflexively hostile to all international organisations is that I don't want the vast majority of their members in my club. If you said to me tomorrow, would you like the chinese communist
party to have a seat in the Senate. They also advice.
Clearly we know why, because I don't want them having any say over how american politics is conducted, I don't want them to be able to vote on.
Institutional questions, I don't want them voting on judges it out when the voting on taxes or civil liberties or highway
transportation policy for that matter. Why put their entrusted? Because I dont think that the Chinese Communist Party,
once again, as distinct from chinese people is a good actor. I wouldn't ask them to be part of my polity,
Our international institutions, thankfully, usually a lot less powerful than the United States Senate, is in the United States. They still corrupt them. You can't really have these organizations, while you have to admit the Chinese Communist Party or Vladimir Putin's, or the vast majority of middle eastern nations, dysfunction in Eastern Europe
what China is too powerful here. One of the questions that I like to ask people who object to american hegemony is which nation would you like to be their instead, Russia, China, France, New Zealand, seems to me that it is
good thing that America is in a power for position
the good thing, when New Zealand would be so bad worker. While I was going to say it wouldn't be so bad in and of itself, but it would be a problem because it doesn't have the institutions currently scale up to it. It would take a while the
fact is that they can really be only one nation with naval supremacy that can be one nation with a military lead. They can be one nation with a technological lead and it is the United States and I believe that the United States is a great
place is a good place, and I also believe that the Chinese Communist Party is a menace to the world.
And what we have seen is that even in this moment, which is ostensibly a political
in fighting an enemy that is a political that does
care about your race. He doesn't care about your religion, it doesn't care about your philosophy, we your origin
seems to do more damage to men and women on average, but it doesn't care about that. Even
this moment? We are seeing global cooperation
filtered through the usual political corruptions, the what,
health organization is a disgrace, but it's a disgrace because it is in part, run and funded and influenced by a government. That is a disgrace.
And there's nothing? You can do about that. The reason,
have nations so that we do not have to include everybody in every decision that we make with international organizations. We just don't have
that an end. If you don't believe that we don't have that problem, then just look who we put on the boards.
The United Nations puts IRAN and Iraq on its human rights panels,
it puts Saudi Arabia is women's rights panels. Jim said, the World Health Organization put Robert Mugabe in a position of authority.
The whole system is set up to include bad actors and we have a crisis on our hands and surprise surprise. The bad actors have prevailed
so Jimmy outsource to you of our thinking about where this virus ultimately originated from
There has been some reporting out there that it. It came as passed through this armadillo like creature, penguin, though what is called so that that would argue against the labs, what you're doing researching and bats being the source, but now there some there's an
reporting indications that maybe actually what wasn't pass through the penguin and came from bats. After all, was your current said to think and on us sure
People who listen to the podcast a week ago got a preview of what
ended up going up Friday, and I had you guys, you re
Charlie, look at it, I want it has many good look at this piece is possible because was very long, but it laid out
All of the Evidence- and I appoint emphasise circumstantial evidence, but a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to the possibility some even say the probability of an accidental.
Lease of Seal Sarcey AVI, to which the work of the virus from a bat in one of those tools
the Tories instead of biology or they will haunt centre for Disease Control, because we know both of these institutions were specifically researching. Corona viruses in bats.
Late it all out. There is no smoking gun, there is no memo. Ah,
you know some chinese lab technocracy. Whoop see that was us. You know what that it that evidence may never, even if it came to, if it have
in this scenario. That Evans may never know the World Health Organization with suppress. It yet
claimant. Lemon on Taiwan
So I kept waiting for somebody to look at everything I laid out Friday and say hot Jim you're wrong
here, because you forgot- and you know, pointing out something significant. I didn't get alot of adding a lot of you know you're from national review. You suck you
You must be lying. This is all its use to cover for tromp, because you know people listening. This podcast can tell my high opinion of the president.
Given that the closest thing I got was a study that came out, that said, busily looked at the dynamic data busily the other specific
genes of it and said this really
looks like it's been cultivating in some system that has an immune system and that it evolved to fight against email immune systems. Therefore, they think it is much more likely that it went through penguins, which are these anteater like
creatures apparently want to be highly, as at one point be most highly trafficked illegally traffic animal, the world very pop,
in China and yet, as far as we know,
I don't know, I don't know it's here.
Neither those facilities that I described and will haunt we're doing. Research on pamphlets does mean, as it happened just means. We have an added, whereas we do know specifically their researching bats and if the theory,
Ok, this virus originated in a bad way,
your penguin and then ended up in human beings. It makes the lab accident scenario much less likely, but your listen to the editor
you get to hear stopped before it shows up and right before we started taping opening Chica Corner Post, suggesting that
Study saying that it probably went through penguins might not be right back
Ridley Science, journalist, nothin running the Wall Street Journal points out that there is a particular horseshoe bat. There was collected in two thousand and thirteen in a cave in unity.
You know it's not the same as we had in fact, or about trade hundred miles apart. The sample was collected by hazmat. Clad scientists from the Institute of our energy will harm that year.
Stored away and forgotten until January this year, the sample from the horse you bad, contains the virus that causes copied nineteen. So this is based on additional research by
researchers, Penn State University, David Robertson, Glasgow University, another Chinese in european colleagues- and here
the party underline in red human versions of the virus are
were closely related to the horse. You bat sample from the cave than they are to be known, pengelly versions of this virus. It is not yet possible to tell whether the virus went from bat tangle into people or from bad to penguin and back to pee
in parallel, in other words, that a person is still a possibility, and that is the scenario that I think makes a lab accident me
more plausible, for we do know that it went from bad to worse
I thought you were gonna say: that's, that's my Greg
that's a specific what those ain't right in utero, nobody just being dead. I some of this seems a little this out, like you have to believe
you have not one but two institutions that are working on specifically corona viruses and bats in this city. We know
least one of our most cordial one report from a doctor that was quickly withdrawn and if you don't believe the chinese government had anything to do with that, doctor withdrawing is still study. I have a bridge. I want to tell you that this is doctor
add. Yet perhaps there was a neighbor, like five hundred bats were being used in the simple this one facility without suitable Hon instead of biology
We don't know how many were being used at the European Centre for Disease control. To believe that this outbreak happened at the Junta seafood mark. You have to believe that some third venue, some third vector, brought this virus into people's mouths and gotten into human system that just how
to be next to these two lapse? Could it be the case yeah, but, as I lay out in this sir Forthcoming Corner post like in addition to the fact,
that these chinese CDC in Beijing accidently.
Least Sars into doesn't for twice killing one person in and bidding of various other people sick.
Russia had the lad the contains smallpox samples of explosion late last year we ve had
students at the cdc we ve had accidents at food
human beings. Make mistakes. Lab accidents happened with a really terrifying frequency; thankfully they dont. Usually
You know your terrible
asters people getting sick, radio,
spiders. You know the hold the whole nine yards, but the idea
that, although this couldn't have happened in these Chinese, why I've known
idea why people are dead,
missing out of hand the possibility that any one of these couple hundred bats three
Who's, this specifically for research and growth of viruses, either the toast
in the lab technicians underpinning scratched they get back.
I learn more about that guano and that urine and all
wonderful substances that come out of bats did you ever wanted to know.
Bats are stressed, they release more of their viruses. I would guess that being an alert,
is a sort of experience that a bat would find pretty stressful
and so the ideas he those technician gets. It doesn't realise at order for improperly disposing of medical waste, and this somehow gets Thea the virus,
out there. I everybody seems a whole bunch of people who are actively smarter than me seem to think this could not possibly happened, and yet they can't point to anything.
China, basic executive. The good work
the chinese government, ain't gonna, do it for me Chica
exit question to you. This crisis is an inflection point in our relationship.
China going forward, yes or no. I think it's part
were an ongoing and longer inflection point that the election of Donald Trump heralded and that this will make more acute community. Yes, because even if my entire lab in a fury ideas is total nonsense, I could be wrong.
Yours, is the evidence. Is there we still know a lot about this for minimum three weeks. In all likelihood, probably six weeks to the world and settings could not be spread from human to human. That was our best opportunity contain this. This is the best opportunity to stop this from spreading all around the world. This is a crime against humanity and they gotta be held accountable, one where the other so Jim. Your problem
the first person in human history to say back guano without following up with the crazy.
Never I've never met anyone say you used it genuinely
The other delightful.
Because every time I told readers don't click on these links. If you don't see pictures of me now bats being served at markets and dogs and cats and stuff can I
I'm starting to yearn for covering trump statements.
Then, the visuals of this story or just delightful? Let me tell you
I'm with Charlie. I think it's a soft inflection point. I think it feels like a major flesh, important right now, but everything passes even
Sir Epic catastrophe.
We're gonna move on from it. But it is one of
a series of events and revelations that are putting our relationship with China on different trajectory with that, when a pause and plug an hour plus the digital subscription service at national view, dot com which has been
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our plus. If you're not already a member go check it out,
ay and sign up so Charlie Bernie Sanders. Canada Bernie Sanders is no more, he again
recording Thursday he dropped out yesterday on Wednesday
They usually I make point of having my little take on major political events in the corner quickly after they happened, but I didn't do it yes, rigs. This frankly, didn't feel very major he'd already
faded into the background and all the more so given the contacts here of the crown of Iris,
Yes. But what do you make in retrospect now a Bernie Sanders campaign? We remember
the gown. We were all living above ground and we we did things other than podcast,
He talked a great deal about. This was obsessed with it. Every newspaper article was about it and look for
it'll basic birdie was gonna. Do it, I think the the dropping out.
Rarely landed without much of a thought for a couple of reasons. The first obvious one is
now we are all more people and where obsessed with surviving and
The other is that really he's been done for a long time? If you look at the mouth of the.
The corona virus saga began almost exactly at the point at which Bernie Sanders became on viable,
And so everyone said I find it is binding and then moved on and no one has thought
A deal about Joe Biden since that point. Even fewer people have thought a great deal about Bernie scientists and set point. Had this not happen?
we would have been treated to an array of articles about what it means. We'd have talked about: the continuing failure. Socialism changed the landscape in the United States. Thankfully we have talked about the racial make up of the democratic primary, which was fascinating.
We have talked about. Bernie Sanders is fairy if the electorate, which turned out once again to be false, Teddy CUP, for, had an excellent peace on this yesterday. The pointing out that burning view was that if he paid Piper like explicative socialism is he finds it to the public. He would gain a critical mass of followers. He wouldn't have to buy off this group of that group or subdivide his appeal. He had to play nice with the Democratic Party, and that meant acquiescing to a lot of the silliness that the progressive.
Man has a drift in, but his basic view is build it and they were common. They didn't, they didn't come insignificant enough numbers in the democratic primary. They didn't come
insignificant enough about numbers among minorities and if they did,
a come among young vote. They did so by expressing supply,
on social media rather than voting in primary elections, and his theory seems to be wrong and once again, I think the press corps, which is disproportionately made up of people who leaned to the left and disproportionately made up of people
who are sympathetic to many of burnished critiques made America look at different than it actually is, and Bernie and others thought it I for a little while thought he might take the nomination to, but he didn't and now that he hasn't that feels normal unfamiliar.
Jim, like an M night Chauvelin Character, Bernie Sanders learn. This campaign was dead, a lot longer that he thought longer. They thought it was guy. Just I may have made the from bad to worse, Jim, but come on the spot gases heading
rapidly down our country from your honor?
he again everything you guys have said has been accurate. I think
you're, going to see a lotta Bernie Sanders supporters trying to convince themselves that we still could amid a comeback. We still got a one if it hadn't been for the Koran of our stuff. I don't think that's terribly likely. I think these story, a Bernie Sanders, is
that he always had appeal to you know anywhere from twenty five to thirty percent of the democratic electorate. That's where he was at the very first pulling into twenty twenty eighteen,
and he added a finishing with close to a thirty, some forty percent and throughout when they had
will you some candidates? Nutfield, that was what it was and when you have twenty five to thirty,
sent it looking to get twenty Canada field. You you look like a giant in a twenty.
To Canada field. You dont, look all that strong anyone ends. What was intriguing was how much Bernie Sanders could not just to front runner status, which he effectively had for this for three contents contests and I think at the heart of it
is that your like the touting of his? He was always in principle. These always stood for the same things and he does
the unchanging man he could not change. He could not brought in his appeal to the supporters of by Duchess Biden, but also clover, Char and Buddha Judge and
these other folks and to say, ok, I realize I freaky out here's my olive branch, here's my
effort here? A soccer moms, hey people who are terrified of losing because as much as may have you may not love your procreant private health insurance
you're, not so sure the Medicare for all is works or gets a great for you. They burn.
Couldn't bed than any other and he didn't try to
did you in that area by EU citizens from our status? He went off in his long rant about how terrific Fidel Castro us he Henry
D, you know wasn't interested in changing at all and guess what, when you dont, adapt to the taste of the electorate,
The whole time he ran around believing he was a majority candid when in fact he was a poor out, he was a minority can directly us at quarter with. Third, maybe tops out of forty percent of the other,
thing, which I think there was a guy. You know socialism will come back and and yes, you know you could have a I'll Alexandria, Cassio Cortez in eight years, by the way, she's not qualified. In four years she qualifies in eight years to be present
of the United States. You can have a more appealing messenger, but I think actually, you know as much as I'm in joint kicking him around right now. Bernie Sanders
did have certain strengths as a candidate. I think people believe that
even if they thought he was selling nonsense, that he was honest about it, that he generally believed this stuff no,
which consultant would say world
For somebody like Larry David
We want you to shout as much as possible during your speeches. We want
to go on at great length it. Oh what
I want to point during the covered,
A body doesn't have a great deal of email.
You variety in his initial
peaches. It's always a you know this. Does the richest
show the world. How could it be like this? You know it's always. I'm not gonna pay a lot for
about us alone, I'm going to take it anymore and that your that's gonna get you a truck supporters, but you need the soft focused off to you need to be able
cut the two cuddle with kittens and and all these other you know in and weep
someone is sad and to do you know, do all these things that he didn't have a kind of emotion
variety than that. A good President Bill Clinton Good outright in other could be anything from you get the idea he didn't want to change, and that's where he
He ended up not changing at all, and that gave him this minority status. The other things
Well, socialism will come back. Somebody
future will come along. Carry this, I think one of the effects of the corona virus, yes, forcing a heck of a lot more government spending. Yes, we have a much bigger role for government, yes received much bigger partnerships between government and business, but I dont think Americans effort expert,
like this, it gotta be saying: hey, let's make some grand sweeping change basin, abstract theory that the
no, that AOL, C and Bernie Sanders say as you to be so terrific. I think our appetite for change will be plenty full by the time all said and done with this card for our basic. We take any politician and, lastly, the gods,
for fifteen minutes joy cook, exit question to you: burn
Sanders his candidacy,
which, in effect, ran from twenty fifteen to yesterday, a success or failure is a failure.
Two months ago. I said it was a success because it a change the centre of gravity of the Democratic Party, and I am not convinced that it has so, I think, is a failure you get it.
Yeah, I think a year from now know is: can we talk memories interest I
I think, as a success. I do think it moves zennor gravity it puts in issues
and center that wouldn't have been there.
Otherwise and either found or built a kind of movements and if you'd
told me that he would have had this kind of IRAN when he got in is a no hope or against Hillary Clinton. I would have said that you were crazy
Whose cause candidate all long so so coming close,
twice? Sixteen, and I actually coming the sore
if you're so inevitable after happens, but he was really close. He was really close enough, a couple things it bounced differently for him he very well may have been
the nominee the problem was, he was gonna have to do it like thirty or forty percent of the electorate, which really requires things breaking the right
way. Sir, I'm still success
Bernie Sanders Sab. Four. We go let's hit on a few other
thanks Jim Garrulity, you ve, been having virtual happy hours,
yeah, you know every week and this podcast risks.
To have some lighter IDA minutes. It's been slimmer, pickings relied on items, letter items these days that last Friday. Ah I got together virtually with a group of college friends why?
spoken to or haven't seen in a couple years.
We all logged on to Skype. We all know got our home drinks
some snacks, and we just you know, chatted over our phones, computers, but you and video chatting and its
sort of thing we probably wouldn't have done on a Friday night if it hadn't been for this, and in my my wife and her friends were all kind of treating you know or world direct message, English. You know
I'm going crazy. I definitely need to do some work to do this. We did it and we had a real for a couple hours. I think one of the things that makes-
things special at a time like this is when you enjoy yourself enough that, for like a couple moments, you forget what's goin off, he forget that year, the kids earnings-
Will you forget that you're not allowed to go anywhere that all your favorite restaurants, or only and take up delivery
I gotta movies that you know the directive currently lavater the parks, but even that to start to restrict you know you just you just start laughing at something you to start enjoying something:
and all of a sudden other starts to fade away and with its great moment I urge everyone to do that
do that, reach out to those friends, you haven't seen forever on the ways you can get through these interminable pain,
Billina aggravating self warranted such Ivan quite taken with how your two year old son, tries to describe things are one of the advantages of this current in has been my two year old gets to sit in on the clause
is that my wife is teaching my four you're out. Some of them were sent by the school, some of them she's come up with on
her own and it seems to have improved his language a great deal or if it hasn't it's a great coincidence, but of course, being a two year, he doesn't quite know what it is that he's describing so he's coming out with some. Some classics is warning. For example, he sat at the counter, while my wife was making coffee and them
too many said, mummies cooking the water which is sort of true, but it is not quite as he's got the vocabulary, but it's a little it little unfocused at the moment. It is really really funny. As a result,
so I've been reading acquainted with one of these, the great american foodstuffs
which the peanut butter enjoy savage. I've been desperate, as I mentioned couple office upsets ago for quick, a lunch
cause, you know you're not downtown monotony at the office anymore and can pop out into
Nepal days, so I've gone through a stove top stuffing phase which takes about seven minutes to tackle.
And a peanut butter jelly face
It is my my favorite sandwich and it not too much peanut butter cause it'll, stick to the refer your mouth
four digit amounts of grape jelly and the widest and most generic white bread. You can possibly get just to hold the peanut butter jelly together and not interfere with the amazing taste of that fantastic combination. So forego is
time for our editors picks, Jim Garrulity. What's your pic sure I we ve had a lot of really good material on the web page on national view. Lately I think I can say really. Gonna struggled to come through just
one of them, but I really like some of my captain Throat recently
was wrong. Honest caught up in all vulnerable almost would say. Ah the title of this don't push yourself to stay positive during isolation, and
You know it's kind of funny cause they were hearing in all kinds of well, you know you're in isolation. Your court initiatives are picked up three skills by now, and you know this is the.
To finish that novel is the time to enact a lot of people. Don't feel like that optically. If you ve got kids at home, if you ve got it all
people, you're worried about
much as we want to stay positive in a time like this, I really am glad she said. I think it's important nuclear. It's ok to feel sad in clinical depression is different from being depressed and we all have perfectly rational reasons to feel downright now. So
Ah, it's funny little account or intuitive, but I think people do need to hear that. You know if you're, if you're feeling sad, if you're feeling angry about this issue,
feeling no gloomy did ok, there's nothing wrong.
You have your feeling that, and you dont need to were, if you like, to apologise for feeling that way check up what you're back. I like that
I'm a cloth and demolition of the idea that President trumps enthusiastic support. Hydrochloric green, is the result of his having in
since in it. This is an annoying true. Whenever we have a republican president that President's preferences are all
is assumed, to line up with his wallet.
During the early two, thousands all of the foreign policy decisions that were made was supposedly made in order to enrich various republicans, maybe the vice president. It's just
assumption is annoying, not least because the clearest link that I've seen in the last few years was between the decisions that Hillary Clinton had taken the Clinton Foundation, even that was attenuated, but there was a
obvious conflict of interests. Anyhow, the idea that Trump is touting hydrochloric room
he wants to make money silly in and of itself he starting it because he's heard about it. He wants to go away, as I hope we all do he's, maybe a little bit overly if you save, but that is who
Is it silly still when you look into how much money Donald Trump has invested in companies that make hydrochloric room which, by the way, is a generic.
And how that money is invested. It turns out that he has between about seventy dollars and a thousand dollars in a mutual funds invested in a cup
many that, among other things, has a contract to make generic drugs that include hydrochloric, Windsor,
In order for this to be a realistic explanation,
of his behavior. You would have to believe that he is excessively touting. They struck that is
being used at the moment because he hopes that if it is adopted
it more widely the company in which he has between seventy and a thousand dollars invested
well make a little more money and thereby give him. Why,
I mean, let's assume he doubles his money. Two thousand
this is a man who, at the very least, is worth a hundred million dollars.
Such a silly way of looking at the world than you,
time story had four by airlines on why it was published in the first place. I don't know why it was published after the labour of four people. I understand, even less endemic often takes this from the beginning. He points out that hydrochloric green has become a government which is a term used by the blogger ace of spades to describe something in our politics that really has become divorced from its context. All anyone cares about is who wants it and who doesn't? Do the good guys want it to succeed? The bad guys want it to succeed and he goes through the data.
Here in his usual devastating and understated were so. My pig is a piece on enter a couple days ago: how to make China pay by John You and of honor stronger.
And this is really that the way we should be
again, I would necessarily endorse all the measures that they float in this peace.
But it's a real, useful conversation starter about how is Europe
our channing going forward and what sort of measures we should take in light of? What's happened here, so that's it for us,
listening to an ash review podcast they re broadcast retransmission on account of this game, without the express written permission of naturally, amazing is strictly pro Hibbert it. This podcast have been produced by the incomparable sir shitty, who makes a sound better than we deserve. Take Charlie
jam thank you Gregg wherever, thanks, especially to all of you, for
listening we are, the errors have a blessing pass over an Easter everyone.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-18.