The park? Kid sees the gun debate which, according to the media, Mahler and dates a bunch of Russians and Le Pen at sea path. We'll discuss all this and more on this week's edition of the errors on which Lowry and on joint, as always or at least most of the time, by than a tour

an Vd Michael Brendan Authority, the F for resident raw hands alarm at a very special guessed, the guru David bonds in our french colleagues, an author of the fantastic new book crisis of responsibility, which I am not mistaken. David people can find a crisis of responsibility, dot com. You are listening to a national view. Podcast any re, broadcast, retransmission or account of this podcast without the express written consent of National Review magazine is strictly prohibited, are spot. this week is away travel, adequate public service announcement. If you are listening to this part, casts a national viewed dot com, the newly redesign national you'd outcome were delighted to have you, but it would be

easier for you and better for us if you made us part of your feed either at Itunes to an institution or Google play, and if you like what you hear here, please please consider reviewing us on Itunes. If not, please forget, I said anything so Michael this parkland shooting debate has burning really hot now for a week, and one theme that has emerged is that these kids, who survive this horrific event are becomes have sacrificed totems of the gun control debate. Saw that inaction at this CNN forum, the other night, which was really and I don't how long it was to our or whatever session, where these kids could just whale most Leon Marker Rubio an Dana loan for not having the appropriate view on guns. When you make it, I thought

seen ended, was not helpful to anyone. It actually reminds me that I was in high school when the Columbine shooting happened, and in any mine- and I remember there were in a religious groups in town. I know this would happen two thousand miles away in a religious groups in time started. Creating these events in forums for students to kind of speak about how their feeling and all that and I pay stated in some of that, and I remember I remember my mother being. Really mad that a group of Pentecostal was trying to get decisions for Jesus out of this tragedy. You know when kids were suddenly thinking about their own mortality, and I felt I didn't agree with her the time, but I think I agree with her now, if a similarly about this, that

listen, there's. No, no one should be grudged these, these young people, their passion, their feelings, there, their grief, their anger at authorities and and and the adult world that did let them down in a hundred ways before this incident happened, and it was a kind of interesting in some ways to see mark of Rubio put in audience that doesn't care about. Marco Ruby political future one way or the other or care about getting access to him in the future. I in any way, was nice to see a politician grilled. You know in that way, which you only rarely see in oh, maybe sometimes in town all formats in New Hampshire. So but as far as the you know, Charlie and others have said that the victims don't have

expertise on policy issues right and there was something gross about. You know, people who try this time for fifteen years ago, saying well, the nine elected Levin victims want this kind of a foreign policy or that kind of a foreign policy welcomes. there, then They have no extra insight into this into foreign policy and Why I thought it was, then I give marker rebuke, it foregoing into that audience. Anything marker Rubio in some ways demonstrated his good heart by doing so, but he didn't come across wow and I think did CNN, though, in the end so David. What is your view on what what the appropriate regard is for that the views of victims, because, as a practical matter, we all do accord them some special consideration and in it

first event in a Fox news, is going to highlight the the victims or the family of victims and give them a especial forum, is any different from that I dont think that even Fox NEWS would do that if the guests were going to spout a view that was different than the prospective Fox NEWS wanted to hear, so it is to me actually just further evidence of the whole tribal zation theme that we can get past. That polarization this was Tita for see an end, to have a very emotionally sympathetic opportunity and there's no way they would have put people on who were going to actually talk on the other side of the issue, so as really kind of a lose lose for Marco. I agree that there is motion or can Sean and there is also there their right to sort of vent, but I think the distinction that Michaelmas important it's about policy authority and and whether one line

with our viewpoint or not being in involved as a victim in any horrific incident, does not automatically give someone that authority and everybody knows that CNN knows TAT. Fox news knows it and you know myself even being a financial die. We wouldn't take somebody who, So out of money and in particular investment and went to a tragic event in and say there, authority on acid allocation. I mean even though they were kind of in a sympathetic victim posture. So it's it's not really here earth criticising would see, and indeed I would rather seen Charlie Kircher Ben Shapiro up there. I think our would have been very capable a kind of respond to it there more disarming.

But for Senator Rubio here he really didn't come off. Looking good, so what would you think a right of reveals performance rather well? I thought that Rubio here he strikes me as a really interesting, important and almost tragic figure, because here's a guy who represents a swing state. He is a second generation American who represents lots of folks in the lower middle class suburbs of Miami, but also in these rural parts the state of Florida. Where you have a lot of your kind of hard right folks, tea party folksy tries to actually reconcile the irreconcilable. He tries to bring together different constituencies and so in a room like this, you know he didn't look at his best. He was under this intense pressure and there were times when he he was willing to budge. He was willing to say I will think about this. I will give this due consideration. I might change my opinion on this and then gets ridiculed for that. But the thing is that

We need people like that badly in the country. Right now we need people who give you the sense and our sincere about it, that they are actually going to listen, they're willing to budge and they actually want to create new settlements. Now I also make a little point about these young people who were involved in the shooting and are now becoming, who are now becoming activists picture in your mind, a little diagram. On the one hand, you have the way that we talked about same sex marriage. The appealing folks we had were saying. I want marriage equality. How can you possibly deny this to me? How can you possibly deny that dignity this to me, then you have the dreamers. You know these are bright. Young people. Look at all these Highschool salute a torreons. Look at all of these veterans. Look at all these incredible people. How dare you do this harm to them? How do you do? How dare you wrong them by enforcing existing immigration laws? And now you have these young people from Brower County

really interesting, and you see this changing tactic. You find that if you want to change our politics, if you want to win a culture war, would you have to do is find a group of appealing victims now look on the other side of this diagram at the votes on the other side. So what was a real struggle for people who were opposed to recognising same sex? Marriage, who are the victims who are the guys, were actually hurt by this? Now there were lots of conservatives who made the argument. Look. This is actually a very complicated thing. This is a delicate latticework. This is gonna have complicated effects in a very long runway. I'm not going away then defy for you. A discreet victim at just doesn't work when you're talking about victim politics, my victims versus yours. If you look at the immigration issue, wealth and Donald Trump did this thing that was truly innovative and also truly triggering. He found the angel moms. He found people who had actually been armed in a very direct way by an authorized immigrants, but then that was egregious unacceptable. It was you

queues of engaging in a kind of fascist tactic. When the less be said hey, you know, miss. Thirteen is a reason for us to think about lacks enforcement ambition as a real problem, but then he was completely demonized, but for this there was this amazing asymmetry in it. And now, if you're talking about the gun rights issue, well, you know you can find hunters, you can find lots of people or law abiding citizens. You can find people who defended themselves by exercising their gun rights, but it just doesn't have the same kind of narrative pull and it's it's a really interesting dilemma, also leads us to distort how we think about any number of issues. We can disagree about immigration as a policy matter, and this is drawing on what Michael had said before, but making it purely about who has the most compelling heart, wrenching narrative. I think that's a really dangerous place to go because it actually doesn't necessarily align with some kind of coherent, consistent principle

so. This is something that I think folks are both sides of the political I need to be very mindful of. Where does this take us? Next, Michael, you have the inner dino tried to bring up a victim of rape, who will I wanted to be armed and wasn't and the audience just lashed out at herders booed her and How dare you tell a story that doesn't align with a story we? Why am I mean my my view of the victim? Ology thing is that this is yet another genome kind of thing, it's kind of escaped from religion and gone into politics, where you know this idea of you know redeeming your society by putting a kind of primordial victim at the centre of it. You know of victim, which testifies to the though

broken this of human nature, aware they get this idea from an end. The you know of the broken this of the society around it and, if you put put this person and thrown them and their victimhood at the centre of your social order. You redeem at social order, and that is Christianity. I mean that's the Catholic Mass, it's that that is in there. That idea has that world and in some ways like the victim, is the new proletariat right. This new redeeming force of history, some not someone once said aunt, em and Natasha S. Cotton. Right, and so it is this. I think that is what is makes it hard to answer. It difficult to answer and say: oh well, I'm going engage you in this way. That is about policy in substance and about principle, and that just seems very weak when you're talking about like Do you align yourself with human suffering or do line yourself it though

who would impose this also just touched on in a rubia himself saying: look. The inner raise power derives from the fact that the internet has lots. member states are citizens like you? They have a right to have a voice in the process. I found the event really compelling on a certain level, which is, I don't think we have much. Debate anymore and our public life, so issues were raised and answered in a really high stakes. Intense way, the main just usually aren't, because the presidential debates aren't really debates and cables it's your someone's always interrupting or playing fields to tilted. So I like that, but some of these kids but adult needs to take them aside and say: that's just not how you conduct yourself and public. I don't care how

grieving. You are especially the uno, his name, but the guy in the Purple short who confronted Rubio and as a preface to his confrontation with them said. I can imagine you. You know what this this gun in my school, which mediately should have been shut down and ruled out of bounds and Ruby it is very difficult for anyone and that sort of scenario I get more search propped for showing up. I give Dana all sorts of profit for showing up. Anyone has done any public speaking to be in a forum or five thousand people, hate you and are willing to mark you and shout you down, is really difficult to keep your comp. Roger and not show a crack of nervousness and Dana. It Didn'T- and I thought you'd she really perform well, but the problem with Rubio just always get the centres on Ryan the things you are saying when a surly unreasonable did you get the senses too much of a pleaser. Ok, but one thing I just want

say about that, and I have my issues marker Rubio, we all do. Donald Trump has taken every single possible position you can have on gun control. Over the past week he says age limits. You says arm teachers who says that gives us does he says that unease? ever dinged for inconstancy what this market Rubio, do he went into the room? He did what Rick Scott did not. He did what Donald Trump did not and he gets pooped on for it I mean a burning. Incredibly, he is someone who is actually trying to build bridges and the country, and there are these people who don't and there's the same people who say that Rubio is weak and vacillating are the people who they would never dare

themselves in this situation. I have just poop just going to have a warrant notified gather data really quickly. You respond in an don't hit. Some of the speeches by the idea of the point is fair, but I also think that that's a statement much more about trump supporters and urges president rampage. We just know it it's baked in he can say for different things in full. different ways and four different days and get away with it and that's not going to change with Ruby. I think people such people are generally sympathetic like I am there they're looking for a little bit more of a foundation in place. I agree with you, though. I think that it was brought of him to engage at arriving as recommended for it, and I dont think you did a terrible job I think it was a lose lose situation going ran. But again I back to the. If you look at the height of the real challenges in Iraq war in this area, I think any with Cindy she and the motto that at that point, prison Bush gonna, handle the pre wisely. He just sort of state out, because there was no way you were gonna get in

and a sympathetic upper hand played, other way completely? I think that in the case of her Rubio he's really right now cornered himself, because he has had a couple of things. I would think he had a little bit more foundational coherence coming into it that he could have appealed to where it's not just that is seeming, like is open to a row, flexible conversation which I think is generally commendable. As you said, I think it its being perceived as if he's floating around finger in the air. That's not what Rubio fans who, like myself, want from some let's go around horn really quickly. On a couple of these proposals that that have surfaced this week, David I'll, go to you with this, one could be disgusted among ourselves a little bit last time. The idea of arming teachers and traps talked about

This is clearly picked it up from then. The an array, my view is, is not a national solution. I think it's not some usually have a national debate about is for school districts. boards and their places in own rural areas where we have really deeply embedded gun culture, and you might have teachers really comfortable with guns, were this makes sense in and there are some places trying it, but I'm not sure you gonna get anyone else to do it pretty much the same view. I think it should reserve a local decision and- and frankly, I hope it does happen. We don't even know about it similar to the one. I think it is present trumpet use the analogy to airline pilots. Significant amount of em are now. We don't know that it isn't like a public factoid there, but they are up there, there's a certain kind arbour

carrier or random protective measures has been implemented. I think that I would be willing to substitute arm teachers for armed somebody else. Schools that have a budget for of her security on campus or so forth, but good guys with guns on campus. I would be fully supportive of sometimes it maybe teachers. Sometimes it may not now a coursers. The failure of this this officer. at the site and I have to say just making one last point about the CNN forum. That sheriff was so wisely and it was clear he is highly defensive and had something hide beyond what we already knew about and just within eighteen hours we heard more devastating revelations Eddie already knew about when he was on stage and occasionally being here. And mighty and his exchanges with data so Michael, how about the idea again? This is one thinks that trumpet worked on and off irritating right hand over here will hitches the the idea of to harmonise

the age at which you can buy all firearms at twenty one. So currently, there's asperity. You can't buy handguns clear twenty one. May by long rifles when you're eighteen, I mean I'm not principally against that of, although it held here in a few years ago, we had like laws about. You know that, like immutable, we're like fourteen year olds could carry that John Huntsmen was passing. You know that, where moderates could pass that certain red states. I I am not against that principally, but I do think that there is underneath that there is the sense of culture war where there are people who just don't appreciate any of the kind of gun culture where men and their sons go out to hunt and you now want to go out and buy the first rifle together at you, no more tender age than twenty one. So I

you know, and people in blue states sometimes hear that and think that sounds absolutely not to me. So I don't know I'm not against it, but I got it, I kind of feel the same way, but I'm I Tipp against it and I don't think I've ever pass. One there's a geographic bias in it in a more rural areas where you do a lot of hunting. This is not something that can go well. Also think this real clown element to it, because they're, just so much of the country thinks we you, don't realize lot people they graduate from high school and they become adults right. They get a job they move in a house on their own? They have a girlfriend, they might have a wife, they might have a kid in the idea that that they can't own any gone to defend themselves. I think is Israel

offensive ryan in any thought on that now also throw to you what I think is the most promising idea. We heard the last week which David French play a bigger role surfacing at which these gun violence, retraining, orders rate, have family and friends with the ability to petition a judge. Saying this, this person is troubled and should not be allowed to possess or purchase a firearm for a certain period of time, and it would be an adversarial process where the the person would be to defend himself and unjust, extremely confident that if such process has been in place in Florida, given so many people are dropping a dime on this perpetrator they would have availed themselves of this and he wouldn't have defended himself or been able to make a compelling defence and least for some period he wouldn't be able to have legally get a gun. I am strongly in favour of gun violence, restraining orders. I am less of a civil libertarian, then David French and our friend Charlie Cook, owing to his other listening. So I guess I would be a bit more pervasive

in the use of these restraining orders, but I do think it's an essential idea and ass for age limits. You know, I'm I'm synthetic to those two to harmonizing those age limits. You make a strong case, but I still think that when you think about majority, when you think about it either these issues, you think about the difference between being conscripted, the military receding, real rigorous training, need, I think, that's a reason for caution. One thing that I plug, though, is the decision. A bench appear on the daily wired. DA publishing the names of shooters. You know this is one of these issues where I just really believe this is a social contagion doing what we can and I'm not sure how they would work honestly. Do stigmatize people who kind of use the names and who talk of item, not sure exactly how you do it. You can talk about this in Europe in various other ways, but I think the idea of actually not using the names and images is really powerful and hard to do in a free society, but it's something that we need to take seriously aside,

We need to pay some attention to the other side of the ledger, because I totally agree with you every time. There's one these acts the wall, the wall, media coverage is an effect, an advertisement for evil. Right I mean all of us are appalled, except for the very small slice of deranged people who are attracted to it. I think there needs to be a public communications campaign, public service announcements, where you find Who was foiled? You know, and God help and five years later he can do a cheerful. Sixty second tv add I was there, it was, I would have done worse thing imaginable, except for I got help or have the them, the mom of that kid or the grandmother of the kid who highlighted him to the police, but highlight that element that side of this. This story, as well as do quickly to exit questions on this topic, a go to you first,

David bonds and from zero to five. How do you rate whether this time is truly different or not in the gun? Debate? Zero, it's definitely the status quo Five were assuredly on a path towards more extensive gun control, measures. Then we would have imagined. A week ago I would say three: it's good. more, so it's above zero and one where it's been in the past couple incidents. It's not going all the way up to five Brett Stephen is not getting his second amendment repeal, but I would say that it's the middle, I think it's rather over three and beef. It's a too I think just overall were were feeling the effect of the number of these mass shooting incidents and the declining overall population of gun owners in America. There's lots more guns in America, but the overall population of people in our guns

culture is declining and and also the end influences, I think, also declining as its become more than all purpose republican lobbying outfit rather than what it used to be, which was a single issue of it, with a huge democratic following raw hazard, a five. I agree with David Number three, because I believe that the gun regulation folks have found their dreamers, which is very powerful, and I also agree with Michael's diagnosis as to the underlying dynamic and that a one point, five or two. I just really doubt there can be any legislative breakthrough of significance. I think will see the bomb stock thing probably pass through Congress, but it's almost entirely meaningless. I think will see the background system tighten up the way. It should be. That's not a major breakthrough either it sir,

I don't really think this time is different. But there will be a time when it truly is different there with their we'll. Just a couple more of these and we're going to be in a in a place where it's just going to be in intolerable and in something it is going to the dam's going to break. Way, which has one reason I dont want to break legislatively and in a way that that's, but some, it's bad ideas. I think, is really important for Republicans service to have an agenda to try to stop these horrible events. Let's hear a little bit from our sponsor away travel your luggage shouldn't cost more than your plane. Ticket away travelled luggage is designed with the highest quality materials and still under three hundred dollars for twenty dollars off suitcase visit away, travel dotcom, flash editors in use

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calm slash editors in use promo code editors during check out one more time. Folks, that's a way travelled dot com, slash editors in use, promo code editors at check out for twenty dollars off any suitcase. So forgive me I blew it. I want ass one more gun question, so David Martin. How confident are you if you had a magic word, and and not limitless resources, but reasonable resources. Could you implement policies that would significantly curtail mass shootings, non confrontational, Michael, no, no, not confident and ran yes, but the magic wand would do terrible

thanks, I'm not confident I could significantly curtail by think it. I think hardening schools, gun violence, restraining orders and aid, like an FBI taskforce devoted exclusively to mass shootings, could make it a difference at the margins. So, let's discuss the latest in Russia story which Russia has really to get to every. We only talk about Russia, but ended Last week I guess was Friday. There was this big indictment from Robert Mauler, where he indicted thirteen Russians, for meddling and are in turn all affair is a lot of social media fro Lang, organizing protests- and tivity of that sort. What you make of it Michael I couldn't go awry hand first, out of a just to look at

say I'm glad I'm glad to see he's indictments. I mean conservative. I dont want for nationals making a living wage while being activists in our country, but I saw on that thing I can do he's indictments. But when you read what was in this means, there was nothing that was an already reported in the media in the past months about this kind of digits operation, and there was nothing Surely that troubling about it. To me I mean it. It's troubling. You know, there's some effort being put into this by the russian government, but it really looks desultory an experiment to, and I mean it looks like they're just funding like a frat house of people trying stuff on the internet and and having fun doing it. These means of like Jesus ARM Wrestling Hillary Clinton or whatever or like spending tutored box in Michigan in twenty,

The team that mean these are not elect like this did not move voters at all. I've total confidence that, if like, we could achieve the guy, I'd like view of the twenty sixteen election and know how every single heart was moved, that this would have been impossible to notice this operation at some offered. Am all for throwing the book Pino metaphorically. These thirteen Russians by like this, to me. Look like a confirmation that there is really nothing to this digital scandal, something that distort it struck me as maybe a little squarely in this indictment learnt a great deal, how about alive things included the signs that were carried it at a couple protest. But then it didn't include how many people were at these: protests and has gone very little courage I dug around this week for something I wrote and most of them. It's like five people write the biggest one was the anti trump protest here in New York, which wasn't really

I mean that the the Russians were promoting it, but it's not as though they turned out the Russians turned out ten thousand people. They turned out. Ten thousand people pro turned out. wake up there, are such an anti trump surgery sentiment. Right after the election ran. If, if you thought a little bit about the kind of deeper issue here, which is what are we just going to say, Russians can't tweet in a way that people in the United States can see. I mean with. Would that be the implication here? This is a point. I know a lot of folks find annoying, but aunt Atossa, edit and and they find it convenient. But it really is true that if you lived in any country that was not the United States. You have felt like you are on the receiving end of information operations for a very very long time and in a very broad sense, you have been because basically, the english language media

has had a near monopoly on the resources to do, can have real highquality reporting. This appointed Branca Milosevic made, which I was really really astute if you're in india. The only things you ever knew about Argentina were coming from London or New York or DC just the nature of things. Those were the folks who had the resources. At an earlier point, Moscow was able to play in the mix a little bit, but I mean that's been true for real a long time now granted. You know these are the private media horses at its diverse. It's a free market place, but you know there was a virgins. There was a set of use that one has when your views are refracted through a couple of world capitals. Now the United States find self on the receiving end of information operations, it is not, from the Russians. There was also a very big information operation about how Gigi Ping is another new leader of free trade. He is this new persons theirs an information operation about how Europe missiles

in people about it. Just in I mean this is something that is just a reality that is shaping our domestic politics and all sorts of ways. The idea that we can coordinate ourselves off from this is crazy, and as the world we're moving to a world where China, it by some standards, Ortega's we'll have a larger economy than we do we are. This is not stop here. So the thing is: how vulnerable are we to what extent we turn on each other? In response to these things, that's the real building my own theory of the kind of trolling operation. The information operations directed at the- U S is that they were directed at the media. They were designed to convince people in the media that act. lay this whole wave and the country is a waved riven by crazy, a racist, crypto fascists that was extremely effective, and I do think that it actually shaped the coverage of the election. What was the upshot of that? Is that some that helped Trumpery Clinton immediately. It is actually kind of interesting, unambiguous out affected things,

I don't like it, you can really part set out. What I do know is that, if republicans fare better than we expect them to a twenty eighteen, it will be attributed to the Russians. If you have a revival, the legs and why. I think that this is never going to stop, and I think that that is actually the information operation working and that's one of the reasons why I just feel at the fixation on this conversation feels really really unhealthy. To me, Sir David. Unlike you you're not compelled every week to Communist Pakistan and joy of unhealthy conversation about Russia. The way Europe ever greater rights does give us eared global, take on where you think Russia, the rush,

collusion stories going. We also had the story this week. The superseding an indictment on Paul metaphor. With these tax charges can be really hard, did to fight and probably mean he'll, be in jail for the rest of his life. A semi goes way way. It seems we have report that may be gateway flip against men afford, at the very least, in the speculation, There's more restrained to flip metaphor when you make evolves, so you want me to get caught up with sixteen podcast worth of exactly about it at all. In this area really fundamentally, distressing story. In this sense, it reflects like all of our worst elements in the political society, their response to it even less Friday with the indictment? How immediately the very pro trump crowd the response was. It proves that he there was no collusion and then

anti term crowd immediately was see. We knew there was a Russia effort and- and I think that If I were left Wing Democrat, I we really distressed by this whole thing, because if I were a left wing Democrat there actually is some real agenda myth things that they should be concerned about, where the trumpet instruction from a policy standpoint from direction the kind legislatively ends, I feel the same way. If I put myself in the issues that I felt many times the conservative, when we go down these tracks with George Soros, we got on his tracks with this kind of crazy things we can prove, and they don't really move the needle. Why don't we focus, so we know to be problematic that there is a real story behind and so Ultimately, this deal with me and afford

You know I kind of the same perspective. I think everybody has. He just seems like a very shady guy- I'm not a big. I dont, like our special council laws. I dont really believe in a blank cheque to someone who go, pushing over rocks and so forth. So my guess is they're gonna get him for things that you are. We really did do. I would write to have been busted for that. Apart from this whole thing with its bad. It's just bad governance and then, ultimately I imagine he has a pardon waiting for him anyways, so we're just really wasting water resources, but what it does is it feeds are worst demons as a society that tribalism diskettes provoked. I dont, like conservatives, defend the Russians and I also agree that if we really did move the needle this election because of as the Jesus ARM Wrestling Hilary Facebook add, then we have much bigger problems as a society. Michael

the question. What is your level of outrage over the Russian Botz zero, your laissez faire, hates free country five? This is the worst sort of domestic subversion and we d our old red hunters, on the case like appoint two or something like that. It be issues We are in an ideal world, we don't want them doing it, but it's like the eighty I agree with right David, that the problem is in us. You know much more than it is what outside are trying to do to us level that have out rich You know I actually I'm pretty outraged I'd that I'm a three and a half. But the thing is that we have made ourselves vulnerable to this, and I've got to say. I think that twitter is incredibly toxic and dangerous because it basically turns the internet into a motto culture. This. An observation that Greece has made its this thing were: actually you can instantly coordinate

Your views with everyone else, and I think that that mean that. Certain ideas spread really quickly and there are fewer people who are actually resistant to them and when you have a tool like that, where you can make a huge number of people in me here, take a coordinated view of what's happening in the country. You are inviting foreign information operations, so I'm pissed off about it, but I mean frankly when you're the Russians, when you're playing a week, hand that the kind of thing you take advantage of- and what I want us to do is make ourselves lesson honourable to it, and that might actually mean creating policies at Nootka, journalistic institutions about how we use these social media tools inaugurated. Charlie, would accuse me being an authoritarian anyway that's. My instinct if you're saying zero to five? How raged am I what Russia did versus the kind of broader perspective Ryan's taking? I would be I you support zero point. Two sides is zero point. One nine

like its above zero, but it's real low. But if you add other societal considerations, this there's room francs doing to say one thing there, the title of your next book, but There is room for action, not just for me. There's a tale risk in this as well all right it one we can learn. I think we could learn so much from like a central Europeans if you talk to them about media life as it was before the iron curtain. Fell and afterward and the influence american median angle from media as in you know, Budapest in Krakow, in these capitals now, where the meat to movement, jumps over there in a matter of hours right when it used to take years, for you know, like anglophone trends, to get into that part of the world. So they have a lot to tell us, but my my fear, the might of the terrorist is that we have. This thing were

She is now this kind of like Mcgovern in american politics, where both sides switch depending whose empower YO, because presidents have naturally Jimmy Carter wanted to have friendly relations with Moscow whenever they come. and I am worried that he is going to continue to escalate and am very worried about the in a context where russian and american troops are soak. To each other operating in Syria mean you can imagine what you know. A tale disaster happening in Syria, where twenty Americans yet old and suddenly that that political football was dropped into this c of paranoia an accusation, and God knows what could happen. You hesitate we feel worse. Your existence, switching back and forth a really I mean this is the first time there's been a switch. You know, and seventy years we had the left really hawkish on Russia. I asked

my number on level of outrage about three just on the Botz themselves? It's it's about is as low as is Michael David, but I just really the nationalist in me that that they were deliberately trying to mess with us is, does get Meyer Ire up and even if the Botz themselves are fairly silly operation. At the end of the day, I do think the- and we are talking about this explicitly, but the the hacking was it. It was a big criminal of that that had some effect. I think it's wasn't biggest call me or some other things, but definitely had an effect really quickly. Us get on a last topic that has been concerning conservatives this week, which is the same invite Ryan for a Marion, Le Pen and sincere authoritarian side has really been coming out of podcast. I got to go to to you first

thing wrong in, in your view, and having an element of the right in the western world represented at this event, or is it out of bounds to go someone who has state its views and as part of the Emily and a movement that has to say the least, to really nasty site, now decide I've. Gotta say I think the nasty side of sea pack has been therefore really really long time at long predates this invitation. If you know I, I think that there has been a lot of flirtation with lots of authoritarian voices, and I actually don't this one. What football in on one level? Ok, not out of the ordinary, on the other hand, either I actually think she's a pretty interesting thinker who presents etiquette of use that deserve a hearing. Certainly don't agree with her on. Everything are most things, but it's weird to me that when people talk about the authoritarianism of sea pack, they fixate on this, as though that whole universe was perfectly healthy prior to this disappoint them

Google is raised to- and I am very sympathetic to it might off, there's so much to say about something like this are trying to be quick. The I found her speech actually probably the best speech at sea back this year so far thought it had the most deafened most interesting things to say, and I think and my theory which I wrote about on the corner. in a way she's. She reveals how protestant american conservativism is, especially at sea pack. She's talking about threats to the self definition the family and the threads of kind of reproductive technique gee or whatever she talks. Islam in a way that very different and catholic compared to the way that we talk about Islam and anti islamic terrorism, so you can see that on the corner, but there This interesting thing we're like Herbert. Fans and America are also some of the worst people in America. So did so, whatever her merits as a political figure in it,

is bringing about some like new, more healthy life in the national front, which was founded as like a hive of scum and villainy in french politics by her grandfather. That's all wealth to enter the good, but she attracts an element here that is really distress, an ugly and and yes, I grew up around the sea pack is kind of gross. I did he know Sheriff Clark and others. You know that that is the kind of man, authoritarianism, a more worried about then Le Pen, herself, Ino, David Wary yeah here, I am very concerned about her being invited. But it's more because I'm agreeing with right handed it shows the slippery slope playing out. I don't I don't

think its new. I don't need a shock. I maturity. I've heard anyone say, oh all, of a sudden, this royal Pauling, I think most people that have been appalled by it have sort of scene it coming and our concern that this represents a kind of combination of a band of men of classical liberalism. I think that, basically she is toxic. Then she added, I guess, have to hear the speech from criticising the speech and careers as an invitation even be there. So she did a good speeches, kind of intriguing in Europe, it happens a lot. I've said disrupt the cannon, all the done many times in reality or article four and are all about this. Regarding STI Ban and the problem of these people is when the right now in the wrong because when the right you kind of really like wanted right over time and it sort of softens you to the very toxic parts of their ideological platform, but I think she represents a dangerous direction in there doesn't seem to be enough discrimination within conservatism

now to know the difference so Ryan Ex question. How do you feel about how see pack has handled the Trump years last couple years? You think it's disgraced itself think is handled at about as good as could be expected or has navigated these waters. Swimmingly look I mean I'm not a classical liberal day. You know there's daylight between my views and David's on these things. I think that in what is being described as this kind of f no national politics I think often kind of lumps and tendencies that I think are defensible. So you know that's my kind of broad orientation but see pack as an organization, I've gotta say not terribly sympathetic, so I'm inclined to say that I have not been especially pleased by how we handle the trump years. That's that really extends before the Trump years. For me, at least David disgrace themselves, bows goes you get it

factor. Navigated were somewhere between disgrace themselves, and this gives you can expect. As I expect it works. My expectations have gotten pretty low, Michael it's just as there is a mismatch between the populace sentiment in the level of leadership. It gets politically on the right and that creates both. I think that invites the toxicity both at the popular level and the illegal on. I dont know how to how to bridge the gap somewhere between disgrace in as good as it could good, as you could expect that MRS Pack has never like a high toned of then, and in fact, I think, match Lapis as made

in some respects. Better he's been more debates more an interesting panels, but I think just in any kind of mass events like this, the temptation to just play to the crowd is is really strong. So that's why you see no in a very few Trump skeptical voices represented there, which I think is a shame and is, is not truly representing the full spectrum of conservative opinion elicit a few other things before we go right hand. The latest book you ve been reading is junk our planet. It's an older book. It was published in TWAIN. Thirteen its by at a minister who is now columnist, were Bloomberg view. I found it incredibly engrossing. It's a book that basically looking at the kind of global recycling scrap business and it's a really neat lands through which to view the global economy high.

recommended that such an expert on scrap businesses well no definite and I'm nowhere closer to mercury, and I use a scrap Unsnuffed. No, I'm not I'm a scrap free market David. you ve been enjoying Olympics elicited the level of aid that kind of a benign display of nationalism, I'm sort of a little closer Joan on this subject, I think maybe where, where you're out and yet I have to say the other night, I found myself repenting for strongly nationalistic impulses. When are women architects, one the gold there over Canada and as far as I know it, have anything against Canada, but I was just

is definitely a really need momentum and whether you want to call it patriotism or nationalism- certainly wrote special periods here and there a course. If I were norwegian, I would have had a lot more of those last two weeks, but the Olympics do that. I think it's an admirable positive thing in, and certainly there were moments American should been very proud to be. Americans, Michael, you have been consumed with the duck in diameter. Yeah the dog doughnuts up. Ok, so dont doughnuts has an apple. You can download, I'm sure on Android an Iphone whatever and it's very convenient for the very simple reason of you can put your ordering ahead of time and just walk in and pick it up, but it actually is a kind interesting idea embedded in this, which is that these service industries right these fast food things that these be built on. major decision, but as consumer behaviors changed there is this like emphasis, uncomplicated, coffee, orders or whatever, and actually it becomes difficult from,

You know store to store to know how to spleen. Your stupidly complicated coffee order to each new person, who is maybe they're working their second job that day or maybe this is the first time I've ever had in their life. So just sending the message of what you want format how they can understand it perfectly. It makes for another using service, and you get these little funny icons in stickers that you can send your wife when you want her to bring coffee home So I've been rummaging through american history, working on this nationalism book and benefits for the revolutionary seventeen nineties period. I have to say in his birthday just passed, but Washington's farewell address it used to be held and complete. Ah,

an art society in its fallen off the rate are a little bit is astonishing Lee good document, especially if you read it in the context of the time which makes almost everything is calling for extremely prescient. We take for granted that we have a united country and a coherent central government and the ability to defend ourselves and in all realms and not be buffet by by hostile powers, but Hamilton and and wash and not for that. The first and last time did a really really good job on that address. So of thumb, eloquent prescient die immense right hand, cipher our editors picks. What's your pic, Richie Joshi has a piece Not a national review online Richie is a philosopher now doing opposed talkative mercy. Michigan unease retinal has written a lot of really intriguing pieces about the ethics of immigration

limits on immigration in what have you any offers? A pretty unconventional perspective. This peace, in particular, is about the Dhaka debate, and he any countries is something that I haven't really given much consideration to still puzzling still figuring out, whether not I agree with him. But his argument is that when we talk about the dock eligible, it's all about the idea that these are people who ve never home other than America, but of course there are lots of people who were in the United States legally on non immigrant visas. There are people who are children in their it's under those circumstances, and they are not touched by Dhaka or by any of these recent proposals and that's kind of interesting. They came in through the regular process, but they are not being extended this courtesy. So how do we think about that? Something too but on David Martin. What's your pick, the peace by Kevin Williamson when upon an arrow regarding conservatives telling the truth in these kind of conspiratorial

situations I looted earlier to the George Soros Comment, but I think it was really powerful. Reinforce then a city that we hold on a moral authority, not to mention intellectual credibility, but I would argue that there is no target of our ire. Doesn't give us better rationale for going after them. Then the one, we're making up that? We don't need say. The George Soros hiring kids to savings on the gun control in all these kind of crazy things that have happened over the years from our certain fringe

parliament. Ultimately, all these opponents of ours have plenty of legitimate basis for them being opponents. We can stick to that without making liars of ourselves. Anybody can williamsons cover story. The truth about white supremacy is just vintage Kevin Williamson. He kind of takes this idea of white supremacy, that's kind of migrated from an obscure part of academia to swallow up the whole of the left's understanding of american history and their political project going forward and just elegantly points out that if it explains everything in a kind of explains nothing and in oh it's it's a kind of substitute for thought, rather than upon itself links Greenpeace. My pick is damage. Laughlin

just last week and when the park on kids are really beginning, get alot of media attention just in how we should think about their moral stature and how we should listen to them and not listen to them and as very often with damagon. I just got everything I think just right, so that's it for us. Thank you, David. Thank you, Michael Brennan Authority. Thank you right hand. The law, thanks to all you for listening thanks to away travel are the editors and we'll see you.