Today on The Editors, Rich goes solo to talk about themes in his new book, The Case for Nationalism.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Gus all this more on a special case for nationalism, edition of the errors Erin, I join for addition by no one else, I'm flying solo, to talk about my book, two, are regularly scheduled podcasting, resume and a day or two focused on all the news. This week you listening to a national view, podcast or sponsor this week. Is there As for nationalism, how made his powerful, united and free my new book actually is not really the sponsor this week. I just thought I throw in another reference if you're listening to this part gas and national unity, delighted to have you, but it would be easier if you for us you made as part of your feed at sea. Streaming service like Spotify or Itunes, and if you like what you hear here, please give this pod cast aside. Da review on Itunes. We don't like what you hear here. That is solely my responsibility. It's all on
me. So this is an experiment, unprecedented in the history of the editors podcast over the years I'm going it alone and with wasn't repetition, SARA. I don't know how this is going to go despite what people might think, because my quick reads: I'm not a national national broadcaster. This is not a golden microphone. It's a matte black microphone and for those of you out here out there to think I might definitely. A shepherd discussion every week on a editors pretty much. What I do is just shuffle off too Charlie and Michael and fiddle with my iphone a little bit and try to think of exit questions before it's too late. So I don't know how it's going to go going to try it out, and I just want to tell people and some more detail and in my own words at length few you rarely rarely get on any media outlet about what I argue in the book and why I think it's important and if you listen to podcast talk about it over
really every now and then- and it was really the idea of it- was Cajun by Donald Trump's, first inaugural address, got me thinking nationals in a way I hadn't before I really hadn't thought about it at all road apiece with Ramesh. That was the cover, and that was really the seed of the book. I spent probably soup to nuts about two years on it really intense riding through is about a year and fascinating topics the opportunity to dip in and of a lot of really interesting history of the west a lot of interesting american history. Calm is when you write a book and have a day job. It's just finding a time is always a little trying My routine was pretty much every weekend every single Saturday, every single sunday I try to to leave Go someplace alone and work on it for four hours he added up and you get a whole worked day out of the weekends.
Obviously not for me necessarily he's, certainly not great, for my family had to bear the burden of me going been gone that long. I don't know, maybe they enjoyed it, but I also use just spare time. You know really mornings afternoon their free hours and did a lot of reading and a lot of thinking things through and have written this book. That now is literally today, so are no longer in pre ordering pure. We are in ordering this, a drill people. You can now order the case for now Amazon, Barnes, noble, go pick it up at a physical bookstore.
Send me there still some of those left. I really hope you check it out. I think it's important argument. It's a theme, that's really crucial to our time and spell Buckley said: all you can do with a book is just right: the best book you can- and I really can't control anything else about it and I wrote the best book I can, and I hope you'll check it out. Do I need to do is just try to run through here some of the key arguments I make in the book and I'm never lie going to simplify shorten and skip around, but I just want to give people a basic sense of what what is in in the book
list, two definitions. First, because that this is it a key part of the debate over nationalism. There's this loose idea out there that the war patriotism means everything good and national loyalty or national feeling and nationalism. I means everything, that's bad about those things which is a totally unjustified and unsupportable definition. So some terms what is nation by think John Stuart Mill had the best definition of any. He said. A portion of mankind may be said to constitute a nationality if their united amongst themselves, by common sympathies, which do not exist tween them in any others which make them cooperate each other, more willingly than with other people are to be under the same government and desire that it should be governed. By themselves or a portion of themselves exclusively. That's, I think, quite a good definition of a nation,
Now, what's the difference between patriotism and nationalism, you know I stay in the buckets most of the time for just a loose. Informal usage. These terms should be interchangeable, but since Critics of nationalism paid puts much weight on these two words is worth Del into it a little bit more. The weather report for paper The Romans in the word Padre or fatherland in a word, makes a lot of people very nervous same route as an patriarchy, a word that drives the left crazies patron Terrorism is a tough but his roots. It's a lover homeland, the love of the land of your fathers. It's a love of your own Gk Chesterton, had wonderful quote, capturing the sense of patriotism He wrote once wherever there is a strangely shaped mountain some lonely island,
wherever there is a name, was kind of fruit growing in some obscure forest patriotism ensures that should this shall not go into darkness, without being remembered in a song so well patriotism, simply loyalty to watch your own particular your own people in your own government, nothing wrong with that. I think patriotism very important nationals is more specific as a scar as You got great scholar of nationalism. I relied on him a lot rights it after an ideology that people's bound together in solidarity fate in common political aspirations as nationalism, Anthony Smith. Another wonderful scholar describes a national idea ideal as a belief. All those who share a common history and culture should be autonomous, united and distinct in their recognised homeland.
So a key contention of nationalism is at a nation, has its rights and its claims. This is a threat that runs through the declaration of independence, the Gettysburg address and the Atlantic charter a nation has the right to break off from larger sovereignties and it causes self determination. We saw that, for instance, in seventeen. Seventy six and tree make
receive or foundational governing rules see, for instance, seventeen, eighty nine when the United States Constitution went into effect. So what about this notion that America is not a nation? It's an idea, so we have nothing to do with nationalism or we shouldn't. So it's a late afternoon, taping here so little coffee there. This is really is prevalent. Cliche. You hear it all the time by people on the right and the left by Republicans and Democrats that America is an idea. I think this is demonstrably false America's a nation. In whose sovereignty borders are dear to it with history and culture, are an indispensable glue and whose interest guide our actions or should what makes us different. Rather, nations is in fact we have national ideals. France, England, in Russia, China, Japan and India, nor that
consider ourselves distinctive chosen or honour our founders. All of those are fairly common national characteristics. Now you hear from more sophisticated voices studied. The question naturally little more closely while they'll say maybe we're not necessarily an idea, but the key distinction. Is between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism, as one liberal writer put it, Pacific nations, a community of equal rights during citizens, united and patriotic attachment to a shared set of political practices, values where is Those and represents a means and individuals deepest attachments are inheriting had not chosen and the national community. It's fine individual, not the individual who defines national community. So, as I can see,
throughout the book there are better worst forms of nationalism and nationals obviously can be ill used and distorted and abuse, but civic nationalism in this sense that pure Cintas laid out really doesn't exist in in the wild or in nature. France is often times presented as a leading apple of civic nationalism, but the fact is France undertook an intensive, far reaching campaign to wipe out all the distinctive regional, dialects in there, Tear before the common, not national culture. That became the basis of its civic nationals while people might not realise in eighteen the three only about a about a quarter of the population France spoke, no French is one french observer put it. France is a deliberate political construction for whose creation the central power has never
ceased to fight, and the United States is certainly not a civic nation in this pure sense are draw. Nation was extremely important at the outset and remain So today the time the revolution, the colonist, were, eighty percent British was entirely protestant returned to this white so important, but John Jay wrote the Federalist Rose to Providence has will please? to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestor speaking the same language professing the same religion attach the same principles of government varies. M were in there anarchy and customs, and the fact is culture is seated with ideas: Would America be the same if the people who settled it at the beginning spoke Russian rather name, russian language have country has never effectively support of property rights or the right. Roblox. Unlimited government know what are political culture have developed as a
it, practically every home in America a couple hundred years ago had a Quran on the bed stand rather than a king, James Bible? Of course not so beginning this is a country not necessary for Englishmen, but emphatically by English Cleaner notions of liberty, which defined our experience from the outset token famously wrote that America was an Englishman left alone, I submit to you at the east. The border been settled by Spaniards. Each left them alone for a very, very long time and marinated M by the way and all the enlightenment philosophers, and they still never would have come up with the american founding, and even today, when the I say, largely fulfils a standard of civic nation. It still has a cultural basis. The english language remains a pillar of national identity and languages often consider foundation of exclusive ethnic nationalist states are rituals and holidays reflect the dominant culture
Christmas? Is a national holiday yank pours not their flicked our national identity into penance day is a holiday Cinco De Mayo is not Our national heroes are ancestors or forded apprise place of honor and our cultural life, and we bear the stamp of our national culture, character, Wherever we go again as here got. The American ISM of American culture is deeply felt around the world regarding either approval or disapproval and Americans become very conscious of it whenever they encounter the outside world. This common American called Far transcends the political civic culture that many theorists posited naively as exclusive binding element of the american nation, but to give talks about the book to illustrate this point positive, hypothetical, a black American and a white american meat on the steps of the Paris opera randomly eating
in time of the day instantly, the two of them have more in common than anyone around them to share the same language they dressed largely the same. They have the same cuisine, a largely to have a common stock of a cultural references running for the Bible to pop culture and that that really defines us and another thing I say and talks is you know someone to stick with examples of oversee. Tor spots and some of the Munich beer garden. Germans, don't look at this american and sail there. I can tell he's an american it. He evil, decoration when you see it smell and on no heat he says, that's an
Eric and because away dresses, because his prey, friendly boisterous loud may be fat these earth. These are cultural markers that run very deep, so nations are thing than mere abstractions their homelands that are felt as such by the people who live there and are connected by a web of associations and memories and of political, institution. Just think about it, they were all that mattered. Americans would just be be Jessica, living in any major English speaking country. Why not Canada, Australia? No, they don't have a constitution, but there are liberal societies with ample protections for freedom of the individual. Yet after every election, presidential actual people threatened to move in a move: Canada, if you looking goes wrong weight than ever move right because it can a hint
our american and they be equally free unless a lot of import respects in Canada, but they want to live their cause. They're, Americans and the french intellectual earnest Runnin his name, I'm probably mispronouncing had a famous lecturer in eighteen, eighty two nations. Existence is, if you will pardon the metaphor, a daily plebiscite, just as an individual's existence is a perpetual affirmation of life. This makes it sound like international oil. These Austin Choice, but he also cited the importance of a rich legacy of memories and thought they nice The individual is the culmination of a long past of endeavours sacrifice and devotion, and I think that's it exactly right and the case of making the book is that America wouldn't be what it is. It wouldn't be as great as it is. It wouldn't be, is powerful and free as it is, if it weren't for nationalism,
and there really been about half a dozen significant, broadly nationalist projects have defined, who we are. We wanted achieve, independence from Great Britain, to forge and maintain a government capable of holding the nation to gather after the revolution succeeded to take over the continent from the Atlantic. To the specific, to muster enough national strength, the ward off foreign threats, to similar immigrants to this country and to establish ventilate sooner in the twentieth century and international system of nation states, ideally democratic, but certainly independent and sovereign, and free of the control of hostile neighbours and totalitarian empires bullets,
us back up and get a little out of myself. I wanna get into America in a little bit, but I still want to focus on clearing some of the underbrush about nationalism and I think is demonstrably the case that nationalism is more based on love rather than hate. And let me give you one example: Joan of ARC. You know one of the great monsters of history which has great symbol of the french nation and french nationalism is thirteen year old girl to peasant experience a vision of Saint Michael, the arch angel, your father's garden and visions. Teller, free France from the english- and this is- and early 15th century, and this is what she sets out to do and one of the most amazing stories of world history. This is slender teenage girl, buying every north class and gender to convince the authorities that she was born to liberate her country and she
allowed to lead troops in the battle and background here is mid 14th century the English sought to french lands. This was a fixation for a long time on the part of english kings, who ultimately come from Normandy and from France. This precipitates the hundred year war, that's absolutely devastating to France ravages the population which is reduced by about half because of famine and plague, and obviously the warfare. It's.
Swore that gives us an edge in court. The same as battle won by the english king, Henry V and Jennifer KIT for a couple years before Agincourt, countries written by civil war and other foreign occupation for seventy five years, and then she hears our voices and she's going to follow them and she's going to try to restore to the throne. The French are have been pushed aside by the English and a famous battle at or leans. She tries to communicate to the English I'm telling you you gotta get out of here. She sends a no says, I'm a cop and of war and where find your men of France are not force them to leave our forcing believe. What I wish you were not if they refuse to pay I'll, have them all killed, I'm sent by God having to chase you or one off from France and so the English are getting this battle- harden troops getting that this message from eighteen
girl. She sends another message in an arrow says: I'm writing this to you for the third and final time, I will not write anything further. The ultimate warming warning from Joan of ARC and the english troops news from the horror of the French AIR Max Primus pronouncing it too, and what is your do while she does, what any insulted Tina girl would do she cries, and then she, gets her revenge. She leaves french troops into battle, and a victory. Writing a white horse ensuring a twelve foot banner with an image of Christ sitting in judgment, just extraordinary and soon enough, in keeping with her outlined prediction Charles, is crowned king of France in the cathedral at and eventually her success runs out. She's betrayed this again. This fight was it took on the aspect of a french civil war she's betrayed by their burgundians. The english
try or throw the book at her there obsessed with the fact that she dressed as man. I don't think it's hold trans trend. Lately we have gone over a very well fifteen century Europe and Dave execute her and they think they're going to totally stamp out her memory they burner alive. She amazingly proclaims name of gene MR in the ordeal they scatter her ashes in the sand, and this time she just nineteen years old critics national them say is relatively recent phenomenon that contrivance of modern roarers to control, manipulate their population maid of Orleans tell us she'd express national identity are free Since that time, a chosen people ruled by the quote, most christian king having their own distinct land and she came to represent that nation, so again, nationalism or at least not now, feeling isn't new or manufactured very old. It's entirely natural
Natural is based on hatred instead of love, affection for our homes, for our own people and culture in the language manners and rituals that set off in a given country from another. It's an elementary force that can be a faced with out. Government coercion. Even then, it's proved impossible to wipe out emperor are empires and totalitarian ideologies have tried and consistently failed, and I just want to dwell a little bit on one of the factors I mentioned, which is language so important, so important to people and communities. The prospect of being ruled by people speaking Language is just offensive. Unnaturally two people are sent a community pens on a common language. Words present. You get a really better
the cultural glue were not you're, gonna, get deep, say, seated divisions. Look at nice, pleasant, Canada in recent decades, as normal, nearly torn apart by the presence of a french speaking Province Quebec in the middle of an English speaking countries. Equally, nice pleasant, Belgium, France, preeminently Riven between his french speaking in Dutch speaking Regent, Spain involved in this NEWS than buffet by an independent movement in Catalonia, where, despite the best efforts of the spanish central government or the centuries, a different language is still spoken by much of the population. On the other hand, another indication of the importance of language when the Charlemagne's empire divided in treaty overdone way back in eight forty three between the german in romance speaking parts corresponding rough waded, Germany, on those complicated and roughly to France, that division,
has endured for a millennium cause. It was butter, sit by differences and language release the fifteenth century. You had these proto protestant huh site rebels. Cheating against the holy Roman empire, because they they wanted warrant check office holders and they wanted more Recognition of their own language. Language runs very deep, Benedict Anderson scholar, rights of how each language I love. This phrase quote looms up imperceptibly imperceptibly out of our horizon list half past. He talks about that. The phrase that has a trait resonance earth to earth ashes to ashes dust to dust and he writes how that the residents that phrase drives only in part from solemn meaning,
from as it were. Its ancestral english ness and the importance of language is wide spark for nationals moved nationals movements, as has included storylines writers. Lexicographer, is full glorious, whose celebrated and promoted vernacular language and excavated a glorious, literary pass is why poets are so important to national a traditions and aspirations. The Irish Heavy, a Yeats Composers lists for the Hungarians Chopin for the Poles painters divvied further the ranch, and then you have those great historical epochs that stand for a whole people, whether swamped by Walter, Scott or Leal, LEO Tolstoy.
So that this all runs very deep and the attempt to wipe it out usually fails. You can succeed for a while, but people do not like being governed by someone else and wanted govern themselves. The Habsburg, the Ottoman, the russian empires all great empires, but they dissolved as soon as their report, of apparatus is gave way and the drive towards national self determination, in ground John Stuart Mill again, he wrote that that's such empires are beset by quote mutual antipathies that none feel that they can rely on others for fidelity in a joint resistance. He concluded it's an s, condition of free institutions that the boundaries of government should coincide in the main with those of nationalities. As your God again
rights. While there have been many nation states without free government, free government has scarcely existed any absence of national communities, its national communities that really create the our most the sense of unity and a common destiny among a people that is absolutely essential to the creation of democracy, So I know what you're thinking out there you think it alright rich fine, whatever but sugarcoating this just giving it to the the best and Nationalism is caught up in racism and war and I I would submit to you again. Obviously, nationalism can be abused. We've had terrific wars between nation states, but because of fallen human nature,
really any form of human organization is going to be a desperately flawed may consider the Peloponnesian WAR right fifth century. Athens wipers wipes out spartan colony of Male US, pretty much on principle is through a sit, as he says they put to death all the grown men whom they took and saw the women and children for slaves right. This is a nearly thirty year long war of one Greek City state against another greek city. State may wish all pose the city state as a form of organization, one forty BC. Romans gain the upper hand in the Carthaginians and their their long struggle and the Romans level Carthage they they try to face all memory of it. This is the third instalment of bitter warfare between.
To city states that have become rival Mediterranean parse. So maybe we should pose empires. Look at the first crusade, Pope Urban, the second kicks off and- and ninety five. Yet soldiers around Europe marching on the east, capturing Antioch, not behaving very well carrying off the heads of the slain people than they plunder Jerusalem and her her effect, fashion slaughter and the inhabitants stacked the bodies to burn outside the city and this off from a Trans national military forest fire by religious mission sang- by universal church. Then sixteen eighty three officials representing bring empire toss from window in Prague Bible. He mean Protestants kicking off the thirty years. War kills. Eight million people begins as
a conflict of religion between an empire and a motley collection of sub national entities, including principalities, principalities, bishoprics, duchy, duchies and free cities, Should a poet pose all those guys are inevitably caught up and warfare and in fact, if you think about it and Steven Pinker and his great book about the decline of violence throughout human history makes us this point. It's the absence of effective state authority that an enormous peril, two people, Pegre rights, try battle slave raids, pillaging by raiders and horse tribes, pirate attacks and private worse by nobleman warlords. All them non state were scourges of humanity for millennia during China's warlord era from nineteen sixty nineteen when he ate more than nine hundred thousand people were killed. By competing military chieftains and just a dozen years tribalism completely read in tooth and claw
can paper sites evidence that warfare accounts for thirty percent of deaths among on tribe Amazon in Ecuador. So there's no perfect form of human organization, but the nation state is the preferable, natural, and I think, the preferable one and now that, thanks to the work of american nationals in the twentieth century, we created international norms, sometimes honoured in the breach that honour borders and honour national sovereignty,
it's no accident that that coincides knock on wood, with a relative error of international peace for quite a while now. So what about fascism? Obviously, a lot of the bad name of nationalism is created by the loose idea that it's some somehow place, end of Bosch, somehow symptomatic of a fascism and a really rely on Anthony Smith, again great destroying of nationalism. In my discussion of this issue and a Smith points out, come
priorities of modern nationalism in citizen autonomy, territorial unity in historical identity and fascism, either opposes of distorts all these of fascist hate hated parliamentary democracy, and I sought to substitute loyalty to the party and to as leaders. Over and above squabbling of democratic politics has emphasized. Action and strife. Smith run some more through some more of the contrast. Nationalism certainly has its founding fathers, but it's nothing there. Nothing like the charismatic fascist leaders who demanded
total loyalty and submissions look at the most famous paintings of the aforementioned David and they valorize struggle and resistance to tyranny, but nothing like fascism, violence for its own sake for the fascist Smith writes the nation's, not the main points of tulip, our house or pository and weapon for the exercise of will and for actual ism, much more flexible sentiment and doctrine historically hasn't infused any number of different political movements, whether on the left are on the right fascism. On the other hand, all encompassing and exclusive nationalism acted within the western heritage. Fascism wanted to
destroy it and, while or on the topic of terrible movements. It's worth drawing on the fact that in the horrific leap, bloody twentieth century that million people killed by their governments, additional forty million die and government created famines. The greatest kill her by far was Trans national ideology more than eighty percent, the gum it caused deaths, were there spots ability of totalitarian regimes. The lie share communist with mouse. China, obviously responsible for tens of millions of deaths, alone. Nonetheless, bizarrely you show up the average faculty lounge and you say, I'm a marxist and no one bats, an eyelash, you say: I'm a nationalist and people are likely to get the vapours solid.
Now dive a little bit more in and I'm on winding around, be patient, I'm right one round to american nationalism and the importance of nationalism to to America. They wouldn't. Let us do a little background. I think, is really important and the foremost it example, the first name Shin for the western world really is ancient Israel. Bathing story. I spend some time talking about Abraham right. Guy comes Abraham and his wife Sarah says bear a son and become a mother of nations, and they laugh this Is he in a manner years old Abraham thinks she's. Years old, we're not having a kid, but they do have a child and got a ham is a beady aunt to God. You have this famous terrifying
Episode, where God demands a sacrifice of his son Isaac and Abraham faith faithfully walks up the mountain with them. Just an extraordinary episode. Abraham was willing to comply until the angel of the Lord is his hand and a ram to billions leads to a reaffirmation of the covenant which includes universalism promise. But our multiplied. I see to the stars of the Heavens sandwiches upon the seashore, and I see possessed the gate of his enemies in in thy seed. Shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because Thou hast bade my ways so we see and Abraham the products of Judaism and the nation of ancient Israel a chosen people elected by God, living in or yearning for
their homeland and another central element to Israel's nation nationhood. Was the law see that develop under Moses there's a reason? The Moses's on a couple freezes at the Supreme Court and Israel has borders amazing passage where God promises? Israel, the land from Dan to Beersheba and, at one point sets the borders with the specificity, specificity of a surveyor- and this is the land of the Bible, says a Brooks of water, fountains sprang out of values and hills, a land of wheat and barley and vines and victories and pomegranate a land of oil, olive and honey to holy land for wholly people defile, not there for the land which you shall inhabit. Wherein I dwell for I, the Lord dwell among the children of Israel to promised land.
And when the Jews are separated from the land is a cause of deep mourning and grief and sense of alien asian. The babylonian exile we read about it saw one play something by the rivers of Babylon. There we sat down yea, we wept when we remembered Zion harps upon the willows in the midst thereof: there. They that carried us away captive required of a song and they that wasted us required of Mirth sing, sing us the songs of Zion We sing the Lord's song in a strange land so couple
things here. We we get the notion of covenant. We get the notion of chosen ass. We get than the notion of a promised land from the Bible, specifically the king James version, I'm a stickler for the king James Version, all the courts in the book or from the king James version. It, sir. Best translation? I don't care what anyone else says and the old testament, as I noted earlier, it act as a conveyor belt into the western mind. Sharing is biblical notions of nationality. The word nation suffuses, the king, James Bible, which is besides the fact that I liked it a lot was a translation of importance in the English speaking world, the latin Vulgate version use the word Nacho with became nauseous on an english scholar. Adrian things points out how consistent the use it
word remained across time. The word nation aversion to book revelation sees focus on us translated differ in the MID fourteenth century kinds and tongues and folks nations, then the. Why why cliff Bible later century each language and tongue in people and nation, then the king, seeing version, the setting seventeenth century every kindred and tongue and people and nation, then Jerusalem Bible in the mid twentieth century of every race, language, people and nation so wherever people read the Bible specially wherever they read it in the vernacular, they imagine themselves being the chosen people living in the promised land true and how, in Denmark, Sweden, specially anguish in England very important to the formation of our nation and that I like to address next
So I have a chapter in the book about England in the English of war shedding so important, because it's the first instance nation rising up explicitly protected rights, Visa V, a monarch in Europe. Key events in english history and a key events and are history because a civilised, the supply terribly the people who are most zealous on the side of parliament in the contention in England. They they all come here and something I was just really struck by was in one thousand six hundred and thirty, four one thousand six hundred and thirty four and Massachusetts Bay, just Bay Company, prepare for war against the king of England is a hundred forty years before the American Revolution is fire Ruby,
in smouldering in a remote, hard pressed outposts in North Amerika stabs just four years earlier. Just four years earlier with just to me, is such a strong indication about how important our culture was and how had gave us aspects of our national Danny from the very beginning as soon as settlers set foot really North America and the background here. The masters Bay Company get a surprisingly generous charter from Charles the first, Even though messy space puritan project was the only know which the king was not an amorde of the there's, a loophole in the charter where they can Puritans can make off with it and bring it to Massachusetts Bay, which they do they want. Custody document themselves and then you three thousand miles and mother country. They go about creating facts on the grass,
but how they can govern themselves about how they gonna worship, their guy and John Winthrop is course. The governor, the leader and when rumours began to reach, am in reach. Macerates bay, that the king, where two common, take back charter with people upset about what they were doing here in North America. Winthrop says that which of the king is pleased to bestow upon us. We've accepted is truly our own. Another word forget about it. A friend tells him you don't want to always religious policy. What's the problem with that went through what you may in England where things are otherwise established, not dispute, but our case here is otherwise being cut clear light and liberty get the sixteen thirty's. This is a sixteen
thirty, so the decision is made that the king is coming. This is the guys are coming to take back to charter you'll be resisted by force the Massachusetts Bay considered floating in gun platform out in the Boston Harbor Scrap that idea, but they fortify castle island in the harbor, and I place a beacon on a hi point in Boston. Their afternoon is beacon. Hill goes to how deep and resonant our history is. Wheat Nsync young country and we're young country compared francer compared to Japan, but we're not that young we're not that young anymore, and a lot of this is very old and very deep. So actually the king does
I sent a ship that supposed to send a royal governor of Massachusetts at fathers upon launch and king realizes. It's too much trouble to to bother with these people, so at least for the time being, the charter stays in Massachusetts Bay and just again on this, this point of how important set of America was we we had such an influx of the nicest days country in the world, blogs population, people with british ancestry, a United Kingdom included. I focus a lot on the puritan migration. There are all sorts of different flows from different parts of England. But I think this is the the most important and was truly remarkable migration. Colonial magistrate said in sixteen sixty eight
this. Wasn't here exaggeration God sifted a whole nation that he might bring choice grain over into this wilderness, in other words, to paraphrase paraphrased Donald Trump they're, sending their best people here. In the migration tended to be a young people's game was very dangerous. Massachusetts Bay people came and families, and Okay, they weren't aristocrats that they weren't the tired of poor servants unattached to a household that can it be free the middle class yeoman artisans and the like they tended to come from towns, their extraordinary lit? extraordinarily literate by the standards of the day and, most doing what families came from EAST Anglia. Another counties east of being on that form. The Eastern Association supporting the parliamentary side and english civil war, both all Cromwell Famish figure in the english civil work. Better. Worse and John Winthrop came from that ray one historian believes
The lion's share of the migration to New England came from a fifty mile radius of one how Groton, which happened to be Winthrop Home town, save EAST Anglia, Lee in its mark on the map of New England, the name of towns, Braintree, Groton, rent them Newton, Springfield, honoured on borrowed from Eastern England and telling the only one town, named after king, Charles Town and indirectly from the pre existing name of the Charles River, so old part of England, EAST Anglia, land discoloration in New England, and that part of me wants to depart in this religion. It's was much more close to Protestantism, even prior to the advent of Martin Luther it had for the rest of England for a long time for because of his number Freeman as most Orban herb
as part of England, large scale, craftsmen and artisans and crucially, for our story, a sea bed of revolt against authority going back for centuries. Ok, so stop add them hundred fifty years or so. To the American Revolution and there's a widely mistaken idea that, I think, is important. Pushed back against us
Like I'm doing in the book that in America space we sprang from the the pain of Thomas Jefferson and the declaration of independence, whereas I believe- and I think it's really inarguable an american nation existed prior to the declaration of independence. I can't give you a date on that, but it was clearly prior to one thousand seven hundred and seventy six and their lots of very important things about the revolution that didn't have to do just with the preamble of the declaration of Independence Revolution preceded in from cold blooded material causes such as the push for western lands. George Washington, an integral part of this it activated long is this than cultural Predalic predilections which were just addressing include let us once rather than a radical break from English written. It harking back an important aspects.
The civil war and initially sought protect the traditional rights of Englishmen and the crucial background All that was this rising sense of american greatness and the fact work is wanted and the lowest common denominator, people's everywhere to govern themselves and they had a well developed expectation of doing this because it can do for so long cloning legislatures, not to mention the churches in town meetings. They ve been operate with great, dependence for more than two hundred for more than a hundred years, the great chagrin of royal governors and Astoria Leah Greenfield Right to the revolution, quote the firm conviction that american society, every objective attribute of which Territory Resources Institute, character was as yet uncertain was a nation the only thing that was certain at the time of the revolution: and an older societies. You had
monarchy and feudalism representing obstacles to the realization of a national id and not in America. If she says it's a pure example of a national community than any other, so you get the revolution, but even then, after success, American National Project wasn't assured of has quite a rocky beginning, and it was only the work of Nationalists, like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton, that you get
navigation between foreign adversaries during the 1790s and prior to that you get the constitution with, puts the national government onto a solid footing and with that, without that we would be nowhere. So another team has been a lot of time on is how America constitute a continental nation and just how important this was to look at October. One thousand eight hundred and forty two Commodore Thomas APP Catsby Jones Commander the Civic, squadron one or two hundred fifty years, tripped ashore and Mexican held Monterrey. California, because he had had the idea of war, it started between Mexico and the United States others. Monterrey runs the stars and stripes up the core custom house: Flagpole A man realizes he made enormous mistake and actually there was no conflict not yet between the United States and Mexico
Guy does he gets a warm send off from the Mexicans. But it just goes to illustrate just how strong the American Continental Drive was. Our media focus on getting California territory separated by vast unoccupied spaces from the rest of the country, and this was the the expectation and ambition to go. All the way to the Pacific was commonplace sentiment among all sorts of american statesmen. John Quincy Adams was saying that we have a continental nation in eighteen, nineteen, James Monroe, on void of Mexico made the case for border that will give us, California, Texas and other territories, and where the Mexico and eighteen twenty two. We want California, for a lot of reasons, we wanted to terminus for the transcontinental railroad harbor for a merchant ships etc.
And a key thing. You know when people say I restore stolen, conquered r r r land from from Mexico is a really wasn't a lot of conquering to speak. We actually get into the history of promises lightly populated barrel, do people from Mexico settled there. At one point, the mexican government sent convicts to try to populate the place, soldiers or station the province were often drawn from jails. In eighteen, thirty, five, the mexican Army had a little More than three hundred men in California and as of eighteen, forty, two, the company station in San Diego, had all fourteen on armed men of french diplomat, observed at the time from his right for the picking of whatever nation chooses, send their a man of war and two hundred men S. Basically what happened again. Territorial and national expansionary is baked into the cake. Pretty much from the beginning, Thomas Jefferson wrote James Bond
an one thousand eight hundred and one a letter regarding the ultimate fate of the Indians and the Spaniards. He said quote, however, our present interest may restrain. Within our own limits. It is impossible not to look forward to distant times when our rapid, multiple It works band itself beyond these limits and cover the whole northern, if not the southern continent, with people speaking the same language, governance, more forms and by similar laws. Nor can we contemplate satisfaction, either blot or mixture. On that, surface and story of our expansion was written by visionaries and statesmen. Like Jefferson and John Quincy Adams by adventurers, like John C Fremont, KIT, Carson a general like Jack and Taylor and smoothing story for international concern is much. The story, though, is to be passed over in silence and fill the left. Shoe
Nefariousness, even if you legitimacy of the american nation at its roots, not obviously much. That is incredibly regrettable, especially not treatment. The Indians brutal, but we should always remember the bottom line of our expansion, so stupendous boon to our nation, to our people, to our interest to our wealth. And two are power, wouldn't be nearly as affluent or in full and sure. Today, without try to imagine in America, without free, navigate Mississippi without New Orleans or Seattle, without Florida or Texas or California. Unify control. The great plains. Without a secure continental base, free of foreign adversaries from which to pursue our commerce, protect our national security and project are power, and this, except
She again is a reason. Why say we're not just of an idea or ideals are important, but they wouldn't have been, has influential if it weren't for our nationals, which was also fused with these ideals, but fear remained a small people huddled against the eastern seaboard. We wouldn't have been is nearly as influential ideas wouldn't have meant as much end they might have been totally discredited and distinguished if we were discredited and and one of the reasons we are so focused chasing european powers away from our periphery
is that they worried they would work to pull us apart and destroy the american nation's state, which would have been a a world historical catastrophe. I believe so, let's jump way ahead to the 20th century and to Martin Luther King, who I think is very telling figure. It's been a little time discussing him in the civil rights movement in in the book, and I think king gets usefully to chew How important culture is an American again, not just ideals and by the way, anyone who tells you nationalists are inherently racist to aura list of all the rest of this completely false. If you look the history of african Americans in this country, part of the cultural nation from the very beginning rights not recognized by governments in the United States and a spurious
of a state's rights and a spurious nationalism rise up in the south on basically entirely protects war based on continuing the oppression and the violation of the rights of African Americans and people who pushed back against the system who destroyed and overall these laws and ground this. A hideous culture underfoot were nationals, they were the american nationals so but Martin Luther King, we all know famous phrases and lines of from king. Let our time a conservative internationalist will quote king about the declaration of independence. Promissory note, very power
align, the great Oracle use of the declaration. You know Lincoln made similar used, obviously the decoration in the run up to the civil war and during the civil war. But, let's not forget the king was a Baptist preacher soaked in the bedrock of american culture in the Bible. Right, that is by for David Guerrero, explains the writers where the greatest format of influence on king were named AMOS, Jeremiah and Matthew. In particular, king returned
then again to the central story of the ancient Israelites of exodus, which has such an influence on anglo american history. Famous people were, at the age of oppression, have crossed the Red Sea and March the wilderness to land of freedom. The promised land first famous sermon from King one thousand nine hundred and fifty five boycott preaches from exodus. Fourteen thirty quote in Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the seashore, so king joined his prophetic boys honed and is protestant oral tradition so rich and so deep in this country to an appeal to patriotism and the cause of social and political reform. The historian Scots Sanders rights quote those precisely that Unrelenting nationalism that rain from the 1930s to 1960s that finally offered black activist cultural language to speak to White America and to elicit support the black church and Gandhi
voucher nothing moments, move its only Wellsprings Bering Strait, the stories and values of american history or equally vital resources. The thing that pissed picket sign, I'm a man may have been morally compelling, but winning political and legal rights. Blacks, are part of. I four focus message. I am an american and in the historic March on Washington, and we all know that the famous riff from one of our great a national hymns when King speaks of the day when all got showed el the scene with new meaning my country tis, of these, we land of liberty of the ice, land, where my fathers died, land of the pilgrims pride and his movement wins the battle of her patriotism sand it again in it are obsessed with Americanism activist civil rights activist success, would betray their adversaries as on American. So, finally, I just
is that him. Money got no idea. Listening to this long lecture, which force or serious had to do with all the pauses she's now gonna have to to cut out for various breaks. So I just want to conclude on this point: is I think cultural nationalism is just so important and has to be defended. American nationalist that have to focus on fostering the cultural nation as a source of coherence and belonging and is the foundation of our very way of life, Tocqueville and democracy, a car. He talks how important mores are in making this country what it is called cost so the Americans, the United States, are then the peculiar cause which renders
people, the only one of the american nation that is able to support a democratic government, and he said if I have hitherto failed make the reader feel the important influence of the practical of the track, experience, the habits and opinions and short of the customs of the Americans upon the maintenance of their institutions. I have failed in the principal object of my work. I was influenced a lot myself by Michael Lind, who wrote a brilliant more than twenty years ago now called the next american nation, the new nationals in the fourth american revolution- and he just talks about how our culture, the language holidays, the national symbols, the more ass they provide a source,
I shall again ADA. Crucially, it doesn't depend on citizenship, doesn't depend on government recognition of any sort nor any doctrinal test, its open and organic. He quotes a historian tits in toward of aura his name. I'm sure I of butchered who talks about how you go about learning a culture and he wrote quote by mastery the language, above all by familiarization, with the country's history, its landscape, its Maurice the morals of his regional population governed by a thousand invisible co
goods would obviously be a mistake to benefit the culture with what was found in books. You don't have to be born into a culture to acquire it. Blood has nothing to do with it, nor even genes. Furthermore, not all native born citizens necessarily possess the culture of their country, Frederick, Douglass, eighteen, sixty nine great orders when a great orders and moroccan History- and he set out this- exert exorbitant, exuberant vision of cultural unity. You wrote these blue speaking about immigration, and he said we shall spread the network of our science civilization over all seek their shelter, whether from Asia after the Isles of sea, we shall them all each after his kind, and do Americans, Indian itself, Negro and Saxon Latin and to turn longer in conclusion June Gentile. All here shall bow the same law the same language, support the same goal:
Enjoy the same liberty, vibrate with the same national enthusiasm and seek the same national, and our national culture is not endlessly flexible, but it is open. It does change Harvard Social scientists or land of Patterson rights? An ever evolving national process Lex unrepresentative Lee for the marketplace of raw particular idea, it is those that have one finds it useful and gratifying to brace and transformed into them I thought a lot about this Northern Virginia and the kid was. It was a big. That there is one mexican restaurant in an hour. This energy, of Northern Virginia and now there's a chipotle on every corner and I think everyone's glad or every other corner. The other corner, but just goes how to how a nation's culture does change its nuts set in concrete
quit cuisine, dress also to other things changed, but there still that whore and the truth is, America's phone short of its ideals, its culture, its culture has absorbed the influences of all people, Michael and again, calls or culture neat blend of elements contributed by Aachen, Indians amid western quakers and Black Americans next guns, matete, Mosquitos and New England Patricians black the shape that far more than most the most numerous white immigrant group, german Americans. So that's that's worth dwelling on. This is not a white culture is not black culture. It is it a culture that has had all sorts of influences, and it's really the warp in the wolf of the Americans. And threw it away and we lose ourselves as a people and we a country that most glorious jewel in the millennium, long history of nations,
So I'll just leave you with one last quote and I'm probably guilty of over quoting, but I love this from a future president of Harvard a guy named John Thornton Kirkland said the way back in one thousand, seven hundred and ninety eight and submitted this goes to again our nation, not just an idea and cold deep cultural loyalties mean a lot to us and give give us country its depth and a lot of its definition. He said: we've learned to love our country because it is our country because we are near it and in it and have an opportunity of being useful to it, because we that's air and share its bounties, because a sweat of her fathers brow has subdued its soil, their blood watered its feet.
It's in the river dust sleeps in its bosom because it braces our fathers and mothers are wives, and children are brothers and sisters. Because here are altars and here are a firesides, because Patriot the combined energy at a social affections- and here you can tear it from his heart, commit sacrilege upon its nature. So that's it for me even listening to a special case for nationalism, edition of the editors, any ribaut cash retransmission or account of this game without the express written permission of NASH. Review magazine is Ricky prohibited. This pod casts has been produced by the incomparable Sarah Shitty, who will make this podcast and me sound much better than I deserve and has her. Really cut out for her, and this app of the editors
So please one last time one more plea order: the case for nationals and how it made us powerful, united and free. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you'll learn from it. Thanks, everyone for listening. We are the editors and we'll see.
Transcript generated on 2019-11-23.