From Wondery how you doing tonight, Aaron I'm doing just Justin. How are you feeling I'm okay, recovering, so we're doing better today. Not that long ago we covered the case of Lauren Mccluskey

they always said in all of the coverage by the media. She did everything right, she was the one that was on the call campus befriended and started dating the the abound, sir, who claimed he was. Somebody else claimed. He was a lot younger and then ended up. extorting her tormenting her and abusing her and finally killing her and all along the way. Of course, Lauren had reached out for help as two of her friends, her family. You can listen to our episode on it, but what I did, want to say was there was a lawsuit that they had file against the University of Utah and Originally the mother Jill had said she filed the lawsuit, because the university was not accepting responsibility. They should have for tat get her daughter, they should have acted upon the reports. They were get The University of Utah has now accepted sensibility and let's just say that the settlement is well

over ten million dollars and that family intends to use it towards the foundation. with no fees or minimums banking with capital. One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions even easier then deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast, with no overdraft fees. Is it the decision that banking reimagined, what's in your wallet terms, apply. C capital one dot, com, Slash bank capital, one in a member after I see audible me enjoy all my audio entertainment in one app, always finding the best. of what I love and discovering new things every day they haven't article selection of audio books across every John Raw best sellers to mysteries and thrillers, and they have exclusive audible, originals, ranging from top celebrities renown experts, and it also include Thousands of podcasts as a member I get

access to the growing selection, including audio books, all their regional sampan CAS. I found a lotta gems in their original section, and I love the app on my phone, because I can set a timer and fall asleep. While listening to some of my favorite audio books, you can download to your app. If you're flying seek listen to it. Offline new members can try audible free for three days, visit, audible doc Slash Gaeta BP or text Judah BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible. calm, Slash G, W P or text Guida BP, two five hundred five hundred tonight's case Erin. Another way at homicide or was it suicide? But it's not that simple and I'm excited to talk this case, because I had actually not heard of this before. So with that, what are we talking about tonight?

its commonly known as the errand ments case, but could easily also be called the PAM Mince case or Palma ments case, and it has to do with them. murder of a woman or suicide of a woman in her own home, and as always you look to someone post to her, if it was I'll play was our huh involved. So this went down On January, twenty second nineteen, eighty four New Orleans Louisiana. Let's talk a bit who these people were Aramis I was born in July of nineteen twenty one to Abraham and IDA mints. He had a of siblings, Herbert and Janice, and here wife, Palma Vote was born on December seventh. Nineteen thirty, had been married in nineteen fifty one and they had a house on Versailles Boulevard that was in the uptown,

part of New Orleans. It was near Tulane University. They had to it's together, Karen Bruce and Palma worked as a secretary at his furniture place, she used to be a fashion model and with- be a talented artist as well. So it seemed like Aaron and Pam is he knew as he called her had a damn good life I said this was January of nineteen eighty four, it was actually super bowl Sunday and minces neighbor, Dr Ralph Meyer was awoken like I have thirty a m- by Aaron Mintz pounding on his door. when he asked what was going on Aaron explained to him that he had to come back to his house, his wife, had shot herself in he. wanted to see. If the doctor could do anything,

or his wife immediately, and I Seeing the state of this woman with you know a bull in her head. He knew that she was dead. This there's no pulse she's gone, and it's about five hundred and fifty five, a dot m when they call nine hundred and eleven from the Menses home because they he's the landline there's, no cell phones back then right off the bat are and I'm thinking you run to your neighbor's house to get a doctor You don't call nine hundred one, I'm half! trouble but hey if you know there's a doctor that that's living next door go get him this, it does make sense to me, though I mean who better You can have immediate medical, ts on hand, or you could wait for emergency personnel to arrive, and I guess I would just think

Okay, you go next door, you get the doctor, you bring them back over while the doctor is looking at your looking over her wounds, your phone dialing nine hundred one, but it took them. For twenty minutes to call nine one one a- please respond and detective John Dillman, men. but the house and he's looking at Palmer's body, she's, holding a thirty eight caliber pistol in her right hand the bullet two- is on the right side of her head. So he thinking, okay, looks like a suicide, but The gun wasn't exactly like in her hand with her finger on the trigger it was sort of in her palm Her fingers were not around it. Looking at body closer. They saw Her right elbow was bent in an upward direction, but they were too

bloodstains on the bottom of her forearm and they came down a point on the sides, which means the blood was running up her arm and that's not really possible oh, you know the way her arm was angled blood would run downhill or you know with gravity, not against gravity. So he knows, this isn't the position of the body. He knows It's been moved and going off the placement of the gun. It's looking like the gun was placed in her hand. right off the top. I don't think this was suicide but detect is intuition says this may be what it looks like the doctor called nine hundred and eleven and For those of you who are wondering you know how guilty does air immense, care from the start. Well, he Steven call nine one one

like, you said he was twenty to twenty five minutes before nine. I one was even called the it there looking around the bedroom in the bathroom, and they find blood smeared on the light switch in the bathroom taking that into account, because they're thinking, why is their blood on the light switch. Unless this guy, has some sort of explanation but If he's saying that he found his wife dead and He ran and got the doctor. Well, he didn't go to bathroom? So why is this here now? another bedroom three is down from the master bedroom, invest It has found a pillow with a bullet hole in it, on one side, you have look like burn marks like a muzzle flash burn, on the other side there smudges of blood. So if anyone

watches any movies or knows anything about true crime can be used to muffle a gunshot and a bullet gone through this pillow so why? in another room and Why does it have a bolt hole in? It and honestly earned. At that point, I I would be this man in cuffs they were deaf suspicious of him, because the house had an alarm system, it hadn't gone off, and then you have this pillow, that was, in another room, almost as if you know was thrown on the bed there, maybe it was the hope of the husband, hear that they wouldn't locate that they wouldn't see it for what it was. I mean, we're going to take your own life. You don't need muffle the shot there in this pillow and it certainly looks like it was used. So how can you not look at Aaron as being guilty

you obviously are going to bring him in for questioning like they should, of course, Aaron is saying I found This way I didn't kill. My wife to know what he was doing that night and he the main account of going to a party. And he said they were there until about eleven thirty and they went home, but he said after they gotten in bed, he got. During the night because he had shingles. he got up and went downstairs to the living room and put on the tv he was held inter those down there because he just couldn't fall asleep upstairs it was between five, twenty and five thirty in the morning when there was a loud bang from upstairs and- Naturally, he went right up there to see What's going on, when he said he found PAM covered in blood

and she was lying across the master bed with a still in her hand this is where I think he you know he starts to explain why she might have been in a in an odd position and why blood may have been found elsewhere because he said He went immediately to take payment. Arms, and then he himself across her? He, his instinct was to hold her and he said. He was in shock and then after a sort of God is It's about him again. He was thinking well my neighbours, a doctor. I could go and get him. Maybe you can help me, but they want to ask him this pillow Justin. What did he say about the pillow? was kind of in a daze, so he. He was having a hard time coming up with answers, but he says that he saw the pillow and he grabbed

just unsure what to do. He felt like, I guess he didn't want to look at it so It moved the pillow leave that he moved it because he knew it didn't belong in that room yeah. So instinct was to put it back where it belonged. She's weird, I guess: that's an explanation when people in shock. Sometimes they do strange things in case. It almost sounds like Aaron saying my instinct was to put something back where it belonged Pillow was never in that room it was always in that room down the hall, but I'm sure many of you, our thinking, yeah, That sounds like bs he's already said that he embraced his play who shot herself gotten by himself took the pill. Down the hall place it somewhere else. He said he's gone to the bathroom and why.

Washed his hands eek. Is this strike four five at this point I be yet all right there in deeds guilty, but she said podcast down it's fine where, if we're done, episodes over foot can move on right. Well, now that's. What we always say, though, is that we can run with things because it makes sense, but also if we want Justice? We have to dig as deep as we can, and so on His case. All we know is that this scene looks very suspicious the husband. sounds very suspicious his actions had have been suspicious and seems to have answers to explain away any kind of questions so at all little too convenient spoiler alert, but things aren't going CUP for Aaron anytime soon, now Palma, play Kpam was buried in Hebrew. Rest cemetery within hours of her death

and her headstone was shot. with her husband. They both had their names on there and there was a star of David between their names with mince written across the top inscribed, for her, was beloved, wife and mother, so that It of course, are thinking. This does not look like a suicide. It looks like it was meant to look like a suicide at this point. just need to gather up every give evidence they can we're talking about forensic evidence and it's nineteen, eighty four, but when you have the body buried so quickly because religious reasons. just as one more knock against him, I'm not If many people know about that, for jewish people they have to be buried relatively quickly- and I actually didn't know about this until I watched an episode of curb your enthusiasm that dealt with it. Get religious beliefs and traditions, but

comes to what's passed boy, a homicide I guess there The gather everything up his fast, they can possibly get a court order to prevent her burial, but they felt pretty cock but and all the other, the goal evidence found around the house and the scene of the crime. They do have her blood it was tested. they know it's hers, they know that if you just recount this Thirty four people that Dell, your understand that the detectives theory of what happened makes total sense. Their theory is that errand his wife. While she was sleeping with a gun and then he repositioned her. so that it would look like she shot herself, but from her was transferred onto him and they went to the bathroom and he left blood on the switch.

now he did wash his hands, which is suspicious right and he also moved the pillow into another room, which you know. It's if questionable what that was all about. Was it his instinct to return it to the proper room, or One point even said: I didn't even remember where I had put it, but they also know that Aaron having an affair. if younger woman now just to let you know was sixty two years old at the time and his wife was fifty three. His mistress was thirty. Three hour I earn Whereat strike fifteen. Now why they think we're done by a long shot here. So he's have in a fair and His wife ends up dead. very questionable circumstances? I think that at this point the police, have all the evidence they need to arrest and charge him they find out,

his mistress, his name Lois Porsche and she was publicist for the world's fair. They for her, but they found not that she was in France nowhere near the crime, a lot of people knew about the affair I guess it was sort of out in the open, but it's still not a good luck, regardless. of how you spend this, and PAM was not happy about and she was unhappy in the marriage and was angered that the affair was pretty much out in the public. They did photo opportunities together him and his mistress and Pam would end up telling her friends that she felt trapped in this marriage even before she found out about the affair. So This is everything the cops need It's January, twenty fifth, nineteen, eighty four,

where they arrest errants in charge. Him was second degree murder which, owing to carry a mandatory life since his bonds. at one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, On Thursday January. Twenty sixth he's in did by a grand jury. Yeah, it's all downhill from here right. right and they made a good case before this grand jury again. The kind of story you can tell people no say no, I I get it. It makes sense. But, on the other hand, Aaron Mintz has money and this bond of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars- that's no trouble so he's free at the time, and he course needs an attorney he hired go far to represent him the inch thing here is, while the The home is still being in the gated and detectives

looking for any kind of evidence, Michael power is allowed to go. To the home so he's in there, looking around it. Just sort of taking no because he seeing things that might help him? defend Aaron mints in a case looks quite impossible at this point. one of the things he noticed was that the police photographer is all the place, not even being careful about where they go and they're in his words, tramping all over the carpet and then after Palmer, body was taken away. The police are just when apart the bad. Looking for the missing casing because they know must be there somewhere, but in doing that, they're, not collecting the evidence that might be in the bed right, that's where she died. Now the casing, was never found there because it ended up being the gurney that Palmas

He was transferred away in as far looking around he's thinking wow they just I think they've already solved this, but how you need more time. I mean it's one thing to say: yeah he looks guilty it's another to say we have everything. We need to prove that I think he looks guilty. But the way, they're handling this crime scene this is going to be hard to after all the dots, but do they even realize this, this one If this is either little bit of incompetence or if it's just overconfidence like we've got it, we have to tell people that story and they'll they'll, agree and they'll find him guilty, no problem the. Think thing here is the New Orleans. parish. Coroner Didn't examination did not hops and will doubt suicide. This is quite surprising because

he cited in his report on digested food. in her stomach, which was likely the party she had been to showed that she died. Six hours after leaving the party it says, Aaron was Prob. We correct in his timeline. He says he the shot the shot at about five twenty five thirty in the morning, and they had then the party at about eleven thirty. So this is what kind of working out. Finally, something that points to possibly Aaron telling the truth here. It's weird, though, that he ruled out suicide based on The food, even though the timeline matches up. It's like the exact opposite, what you would expect, but yeah right, it's bad that he's ruling out suicide but he's also basically saying that the timeline works for Aaron, I he doesn't say that, but you know, when you do the math it's like well, she did

I early in the morning. Of course, the detectives we're trying to figure out what the deal was with Lois. The mistress and she was saying oh now, we we weren't in a relationship or were not doing that. Business right yeah well business, but a friend she said air was a friend and he was more of a mentor for her. This doesn't work for the detectives. They see right through it because As we said, it was kind about the public. There were a lot of people that rail to tell the text. oh yeah. I knew they were doing stuff. We knew they were a couple detectives or secured. Whoever is letting out a lot of details to the media. So this getting covered heavily in the press. specially in the New Orleans area. and as soon as you hear about that, pillow being moved and having a bullet shot through it. But you say that look, opinion was discussed,

hildy and we're done just like most people hearing about this case are probably retuned out, because they think this guy's guilty and what are Aaron and Justin going to talk about for another thirty minutes. Take mom moment from our sponsor. A great documentary makes us question everything and shows us the worst and the best of what human beings are capable of each be. Oh docks, club dives. deep into the true stories that captivate our imaginations on each. Episode of HBO Docks club host NI loose of the nod in four colored nerds and run The young junior of solvable and NPR as pop culture happy hour, will take a closer look at a film or series. In the h b, O Documentary films Catalog, you can watch on H, B, o max they'll, get updates on the stories talk with the filmmakers behind each feature, documentary as well as experts who help us make sense of each film. You can listen to h B, O docks club now so be sure to listen to h, B, O docks club on H, b MAX or wherever you

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The air and killed his wife because they were arguing about the affair and she ended a force him. We all know that one of the primary reasons that men murder their wives is because they don't want to pay any money out. Especially to someone they don't want to be around anymore, so he killed her. early in the morning of January, twenty second thousand and eighty four- they had an argument and he waited till. She went to sleep and then he shot her in the head and he this pillow, so that his knee is probably wouldn't hear the shot. Then he had You staged the scene so that it looks like Palm had taken her own life and then he put the gun in her hand, moved them. Call Tina the room watch, hands so that he can this blood and gunshot evidence they had asked him. Will you let us run a gsr test on you, and he said well, you can, but did wash my hands, and I know we talked about that, but it's just

it looks so much like guilt but you know who they didn't run a gunshot residue test on alma yeah. That would be his wife. I would think that would be just standard operating procedure. You would test that by default the detective said the gun was in her hand. So, therefore, if it had been right, we fired? She would have gunshot residue on her hand, regardless when you don't test it, when you can't verify that in a court of law, that's a knock against you, that's a knock against the investigation. What. shocks me about this. A test like that could have helped their case. We know that if she had shot herself, they would back to see. A lot of gs are on her hand, right yeah, but if they tested it,

she didn't have any that's apposite and if she didn't that would strength, in their case by a large measure. I would think but again it's the world. With this theory, and we don't really have to dollar eyes or cross all our tease, because we don't need to again if it gets overconfidence There are some other people that testify at this trial. One of them is the neighbor Dr Meyer. He tested I that it was obvious to him that something was wrong. said that when he saw the way her arm was positioned, he's he was thinking that doesn't look right. He didn't tell anyone at the time and then officer named Emmett, do paws who had responded that more to the minutes. Home testified that errand didn't anything about moving the pillow or his wife's body, so the prosecution here is saying why, Did he move the pillow in the other room? Might be

just call nine hundred one immediately one set agree with the prosecution here. This coroner, Frank, Minyard who is testifying how they were five factors in her death in I must that point it's a homicide. Remember he ruled out suicide and this is why he said there patterns of blood stains arm the position the gun. The state the pillow the bullet hole in the pillow and the, digested food in her stomach, as well as the wound in her head. So all these just together equal homicide. We talked about the blood on her arm. Blood doesn't go against gravity now, of course, if he embraced his wife after she shot herself the arm. but have been moved if he might turn or you know. Let her back down that could jostle finger out from the trigger, and

leave the gun in her hand in a not natural way but all of these things, the totality of them all, seem pretty unrealistic and impossible case. I think guess how this was seen. But again they must have had something right theory on the defensive side was that Palma was very very depressed and they were able to back Bay because they brought on her physician doctor. Morris Weisler have been treating her. She was taking a drug for very serious periods of depression lasting eight days or longer so Her physician had actually talked to the coroner and said he was not surprised. This woman had taken her own life, because the pharmacist who her prescriptions had spoken with her.

A few weeks before she died and Palma had asked him a strange question. What was that she asked him what the best way to die was which that's a pretty doom and gloom question? What's the best way to die It's essentially saying: what's the best way to kill myself was it's painless way to end it all, and that's pretty damning. I don't know if it's going to override all of the suspicious item it does show that she was? plating suicide bombers, suggest about that, but that what they need is they need to introduce some doubt because look they tried there fast to get this jury to be very, very unbiased, bringing people who wouldn't have influenced by the media coverage at the time, but still The prosecution has kind of an easy case to make here so the defence

as to say I know this guy looks guilty, but don't discount all that was going on with Palmer. stand what she was going through. She had seen a psychiatrist. She had seen a physician. She was having trouble. She was very depressed. she had anxiety, bring in Bruce Ments who the sign of pulmonary and he tested that his mom knew all about Louis Lois, and he talk to her about the affair and said she was disturbed by it, but he also said you know I I don't see my mom confronting my dad about this, I just don't see that happening. So it's Those cases where do you believe our do believe Bruce or double the prosecution who sang. Oh, no, they thought about this there's all. question of maybe the pressure applied.

Over time of her having to deal with this got to her, and she did want to argue about it. We don't but none of this really explains that pillow Aaron pillow that had a bullet shot through it and was moved by Aaron to the other room. This looks really bad, and that alone could be considered the quarter. smoking gun of this case, so they have to attack this they have to explain away how This pillow was involved with the shooting and why it was moved. A little fence. Attorney first wants to if their theory of what happened here, and they say that because Aaron hugged his wife to himself. That's how blood and gun powder that was discovered on his bathrobe was left there And then, when Aaron left the room, he went

to the bathroom and turned on the light, which of course, transfer blood under the light switch before he washed his hands and then he starts to talk about the pillow. He said that because air was in a state of shock, that he took the pillow from the add and put it in the other bedroom, because that's why that pillow, that's where I belonged. It's like his attorney is admitting in court real reason that the pillow was moved was because Aaron, found it in the bed. Next to his wife, and knew that if that's hey there and the detective. Thought when they came in, they would immediately tie him to what happened That's what it sounds like to me that attorney is essentially admitting he moo. Because he knew it looked damning. But of course, they're going to search the house so they end finding it anyway. This swear. the pillow is either part

of a murder or, there's some other reason for it to have been in the bed and the fact that there's appears to be guns residue and burn marks on one side of the pillow and blood On the other side, that's a dick. live of shooting through the pillow, with the gun and they're being what on one side so they test the theory of weather, His pillow was used in a crime, so they take the same pillow and they will put a It's like a sponge full of either blood red paint in a inside of a baggie, and they put the blow in front of it and they shoot through the pillow and that What will go through the pillow and into sponge and cause back spouter the what that was found on the pillow isn't

high velocity blood, it's just kind of dripped sort of bloodstains, as if her head was just laying on it as a whole it's. It was pushed against her head and shot through. So that's the first bit of ballistic type evidence that they're looking at and thinking. That's not it's not exactly. Adding up also they notice, when you shoot a bullet through a pillow into whatever that bullet will collect particles of fabric threads whatever from the pillow as it travels through and the bullet that they recovered from PAM, It actually didn't have any material on it- didn't have any fight yours any thread, so that's a little weird

they were especially expecting that batting from the inside of the pillow, the stuffing would have been inside of her head. nearer head or in the bed. They didn't find any evidence of that and testing they should have so explanation. Is there for this pillow to be quote, unquote, shot through and they're, not being any fabric on the bullet, What's the other alternative explanation to this end, this is where they bring in the housekeepers. The housekeepers had worked there for decades, and one of them testified. she saw Palma, leave the home with the pillow. So very strange. This was just for the day that she died? The other house? keeper testified that he went in to make sure the bed was made up properly, because Palma liked everything really neat, that

He was running her hand alongside the inside. near the mattress there in the sheep that she found the gun. So, We didn't talk about this, but Palmer was familiar with guns and shot guns, so her hat a gun in bed. Isn't that crazy. but it's also more proof that it's not Aaron's gone. Its promise gun, now I know you can be killed with your own weapon, but she at least according to the housekeeper, had already had In her bed prior to her death, let me paint that picture out because you explained the situation, but she took this pillow with her away from the home the day before she's shot. So if there's no brick found on the bullet. Then she get out somewhere out the nowhere shot

HU, this pillow with the gun and then brought the pill, go back to the house and then possibly shot herself with the pillow next to her head. No, that it would look like the pillow was used in a crime. I don't know that? They spelled it out exactly like that, but I believe that they gave the jury enough, where they could paint at picture inside their own minds, because it's kind of a mystery and why she would have that pillow in the room his Aaron said he didn't take it to the room. He actually took it out of the room. So why would pillow be in the room. Now play. We can't trust, Erin it's one hundred percent but Add this up and you have people who, have no reason to lie like the housekeepers which I'm assuming, but both of them testifying in a way that really suggest Palmer may have been response

oh for her own death, and I think you know when are defending someone. These are the kinds of things to bring up because going in had zero chance of beating this case, but now they've asked pretty good testimony on the defense side and I need to say again the batting on the pillow when they did their test, should have seen it. It should have ended up in her head in the wound, but they didn't find that. So it's a real, quick she was this pillar shot somewhere else. With all of this, the defense actually has decent argument and they Those out this case with this the justice system gone insane now. I think that the investigators did what they were supposed to do

I actually don't think that they're looking to rare the sky they're going at this with their gut feeling and saying this very suspicious, and I absolutely feel like they were going down the right path, myself. Well, or not they kept going after evidence, appeared that might have exonerated. Mr Mense, I don't know, but the defense pounding them during their closing argument, saying thing radically wrong. With this, you set out to prove homicide because of their gut feeling right there saying you and actually look at the other side of this, and because you didn't then is left up to us. If I were embarrassing, you now, I think they put it essentially. Aramis testify in his own defense, and I don't think I did this lightly, but I don't think that they just

or breast simply on their own investigation. They also get him up there because frankly, his his attorney believed in him. This was like. Well, I'm getting paid I'll do this now. He fully believed interments was innocent, so he took the jury. Through this and said she had pancreatitis she was on painkillers and wine to help her with. her illness and her pain, She was lonely and depressed, so poor she had drugs for that, and then He admitted to his affair with Lois and said yes, that that was something that was going on may about the pillow. Once again, he goes back to why lie didn't want to see it. I didn't want to think about it. So It's put in the hands of the jury and this is going to be very tough decision, the jury.

Sad that their initial vote was six to six one of them saying the prosecution, really didn't their case to me at all and then another one said there were two three things that just didn't seem to fit in, and so we came to a tended to decision in favour of an acquittal. That's kind of shocking to me, but one we got into that hard evidence of the material from the pillow not being present on that bullet. sudden that pillow seems inconsequential and If he did embrace his wife, he would have moved her. It's the crime scene was tainted as soon as he touched her body and, at this point, You don't have enough and I think these jurors really saw

the facts and the evidence here when he was found. Guilty, Aaron went it over to the jury and shook each of their hands individually, thanking them and telling them he did not do it. I'm surprised! I applaud them myself honestly iron from the get go. I unlike this guy just looks guilty. While we know it about this trial because MIKE Fowler did a podcast about it last year, and he did it with age us by the name of Lamar White Junior and if you listen to it found, talks about how he directly challenged the jury? surely you can't find for the prosecution here if you Your stand, what I'm telling you about the evidence? In other words, God they have a theory but you need to go on evidence and we have it all for you, we've done the investigation. So

I think that was a powerful statement and as he took, through the evidence. It was very hard to go off instinct anymore. They had to go off of did they really make their case if they can't Alan, the defences arguments properly when people bring what evidence against you and you can't challenge it properly. Well, The jury, in my mind, did the right thing: it's that simple and this is in my mind, whether arrogance is truly guilty or not. This is a perfect representation of what I'm usually talking about, and I've talked about many times, which is in a great trial. You have a You should advance both hitting their case really hard, but one of them we'll just be more persuasive and make more sense, in other words,. I they're battling it out, but there's only going to be one victor, there won't really be too much of a quest

and that's why we saw this it was tended to so it wasn't unanimous, but postures really the Fowler had. The better case thinks is on a mission to make awesome scrub suited for the awesome humans working in health care, for boxy, itchy, scrubs figs are engineered to be ridiculously soft and incredibly durable, plus their functional pigs has proprietary four way stretch and our most your winking anti wrinkle and anti odor thanks to salvage your aunt em, a crowbar technology thanks to their innovative technical comfort, technology, bigs blends comfort, style and durability into high performance scrubs that help you perform at your best. Whatever the day throws at you it's believes the awesome humans in healthcare does their scrubs that match had to wear fakes, dot com and use code wandering crime to get fifteen per cent off your first order. That's w e, a r f! I g s: dot com code wandering crime for fifteen per cent off the first order now Aaron would end up with

go on with his life after this acquittal and In December of eighty four him and Lois would be married. proves that it was an affair and they were in a relationship. If there was any doubt now Aaron men's would go on to do lots of different this ventures and retire from his furniture company, but he get wrapped up in some federal racketeering. Charges later on, most of these judges would be white collar, the crimes, things ah. revolving around money being moved around within companies that he was part of and alive people will look at this and say this proves he's a criminal and a liar, but I think

most a decade later being found. Gill Or pleading guilty to racketeering conspiracies doesn't make you a murderer myself. I see these things as being completely disjoint. And not connected at all. He was charged with my nine counts and faced in seventy five years in prison. He pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering. and was sentenced. Eighteen months in prison, he got a fifteen, our fine and said judge that you realize how stupid he been and that he was sorry Aaron add? On October fourth, two thousand and three at eight, he too, and he was Harry next to Palma, memory, the headstone just in we we hit it pretty hard in the beginning that this guy looked guilty. Everything

he did at the time pretty much look like an admission of guilt, and yet, when you go through the case, He had this incredible attorney that helped him beat the charges I say, beat the charges, but you really was a to show that the prosecution's case that the detectives case and that salad. What are you left as far as maybe a less from this story. If or find yourself in a crazy situation where there's a dead body in front of you. we can say, don't touch the body we can say step away. We can say comment on one immediately but the reality of it is you don't know how you're going to behave when you're put That situation, when it's in your face, so it look suspicious, looks this guy staged a scene, but when the evidence comes out

so clear cut- and I was being Facetious and in somewhat dismissive going okay podcast over because that's how most people behave when they look at evidence when the India puts out partial information about something Most of us just hear that one little tidbit and think my mind's made up and we go back, to our day thinking we know everything we need to know about this case now if I do think that Aaron killed his wife well, he was acquitted. was found, not guilty. Instigation was botched I mean if they don't even test for gunshot residue on his wife's hand, that's a huge mistake, that's as big of a misstep as touch it dead body when we'd be calling nine one one. So I guess my take away my take

They simply do the job test everyone's hands for gunshot residue, it's my belief that if the detectives were correct they been able to prove it idea that oh well, there would be some gunshot residue blah blah blah. Now we talked about this before. If, the one holding the weapon Chances are you're can have a lot more gunshot residue on your hand and they simply assumed things and as soon as you start assuming you start making mistakes and it's good thing that not all departments operate. This way I would say a lot of departments would have tested her hand and it's just unfortunate that in this case, this department didn't think it was necessary, and this I think was, as they had even bagged her hand. So the hands were. prepared there were some good forensics people good.

cactus on hand at the time, but her hand was never tested. Well Did you guys, like this episode, please shout to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and tell us what you think. subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now join Wondery plus in the Wondery APP to listen ad free

from Wendouree Nikki Boyer host of the new podcast call me curious. Look.

on twenty four seven information overload on our new speeds are in boxes on Tik Tok. That's why I'm bringing you call me curious upon cast that finally gives you definitive answers to life's burning questions. Like does intermittent fasting really work. Should I buy crypto, every week on, call me curious, I'll dive into all the things you've heard about, but don't really know about we'll both learn and laugh along the way, as we explore life's little mysteries. The internet's hottest topics burning gotta know questions like one of them Medical odds. There is other intelligent life in the universe, or is it true? You can't die in your dreams, you'll find out me and some of my hilarious friends on my podcast call me curious. Listen to call me, areas on Apple podcasts, Amazon, music or wherever you listen. You can listen early, an ad free by subscribing to wonder plus an apple podcasts or the wondering APP