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episode is author, sue Russell, who wrote a book that I was pretty similarly impressed by lethal intent, a story out, I lay more noses. Life maybe you may know of her from the movie monster in which charlie's thereon plays this serial killer, who buy nurture or nature or who knows became possibly the most. Horace female serial killer in history. Sue,

he's introduce yourself high everyone. Yes, on soon Russell london, I did indeed right lethal intent and the book is a fact based counter volumes, life and death. Ultimately, when I began the book it was she had been arrested and at covered her trial and her verse court hearings and ultimately her conviction and a decade later, her execution, which was a whole other face of her life, because she was a rare volunteer for execution. She, Herself wanted to be executed. Not many people take that step. There are people on death row for thirty plus years, as you probably know, and they are fighting to the last breath to stay alive.

however, had had enough after a decade, and she wanted to get it over with and go be with god, and so in two thousand to she was executed you're from england. Originally, yes, yes and whereabouts, london, What do you miss london? I do I do I came over. I was a journalist. Editor in england, and I came over three for three months, because I want you to do more, writing less editing and I never back and then I ended up marrying an american, and that was it. That's the last stage of the story so far away like to have us give a brief summary. Of highly more knows if possible. I had a very sad life, as you know where she was born with her brother keys, who was eighteen months.

younger in michigan their mother. I am basically abandon them twice before h too and Ultimately they were raised by their grandparents, assisting with the citizens of the grandparents other children. I e their mothers siblings. So They were raised with lorry who is there, aren't slash sister and bury their uncle slash brother If you can keep up with this, so they were raised in the same household, but they were treated differently. He was told me, children told me he had grown up around them. The grandfathers she was very hard on them and it was it. It was a tough houseful hold the kids

were given whippings. There was alcohol abuse in the house. There was quite possibly, although I can confirm this. A hundred percent so sort of sexual abuse going on certain Eileen was abused somewhere by h, twelve. She was earning money, prostituting herself she's earning cigarettes and very small amounts of money by acts of prostitution in the woods where the kids would hang out. She got pregnant when she was fourteen, And she gave birth when she was fifteen and You never met her birth father, who was a very nasty piece of work, coolio pitman who was began its petty criminal, but his I got worse and worse and here. Fortunately about

to the seven year old girl took her in his car acrost state lines raped. Her took her back to the school where he'd picture dropped her off again when he was arrested in convicted as a capital offence, because it went across state lines. So is a federal crime. So, ironically, Both he and Eileen committed capital crimes has being murdered his being rape and kidnapping. So she didn't ever meet her father LEO pittman, but obviously that was a you know, a very difficult part of her life. She at times said she had met him, but we know she didn't meet him, and that was the year that he had an. Ultimately, he hang himself in prison and that happened to be the year the island gave birth to a baby. She gave birth in a phone from where mothers and bathing water

taken away from her immediately offered was born. Apparently she wanted to hold the baby and was allowed to Of course, she wouldn't have been able to look after and the brand lowry to distinguish it from her aunt slash system, laurie Lowry they had scandinavian brutes, you know changing logical, its lowery, basically wanted around the house and she took up living in people's Trailers camp is in their drive ways and even in the woods in cold temperature which in Michigan are really cold the winter socially. Very hard life. There's no question about it! could you ass soon ass? She was old enough to do so. She moved herself down. Florida, which use the ear of her life where she began prostitution, but still a sunny climate and she's

and many years down there. That was how she and her living and Then she began killing. Now we are, we know of seven fictions. She was convicted of six murders. I've always said we don't know for sure. She only killed that many people, because I don't We do know for sure, but those are the ones we know about, because the bodies were found she admitted to the walked, but she admitted to the seventh fiction, but couldn't remember where she left his body, because he was she was very drunk and she just couldn't remember where she'd left him and eventually the police when, when she was in custody, took her out in a car and they drove and looking hoping to find him were unable to do so, so he remains. His remains, have never been discovered and he remains undiscovered

So those are the ones who know about who knows if she was involved in anything prior to that I did talk. A man who, with whom she lived briefly but waiting, is a bitter mischance. Actually about island, which is that she was a lesbian. I was thought at first as bisexual, because I talked to man she had relationships with with which were not financially based and she she had relationship. women, not so many one and then teresa, then with big love of her life and with several men and at, just don't know, but I had to me. I think that first bisexual, so she was arrested and she had been

with tyrion more than four and a half years. At that point, I believe it was Tyrion worked on and off. She was a housekeeper and worked in the laundry of one of the hotels on the ocean from Florida, the resort and she seemed a bit more industrious, although she certainly send spent more than her pressure of time lounging around in a motel room drinking beer, while Eileen is out earning money as a prostitute on the highways. But he turned a blind eye to the first evident it's the first signs, the first evidence really the dining was committing murders. So a lot of people feel very angry at her. She could have spoken, not she could possibly have saved some lives. She could say

it was the first man that we know of she came home with his car and she left the you know she washed the car and she came inside with his possessions and they kind of went through them and split them up very different version. That was shown in the movie monster, which was sanitized hollywood, if you will, but this russia, possessions and career was happy to just take the spoils of the killings eye over time. King find in it took me a long time and a lot of digging that Eileen picked targets to all. for one I can say, definitely had a few hundred, if not six hundred dollars on them. At that moment, time that she killed them. So I think she had a way of assessing which men were

often along weekend? What for whatever reason had a nice word of cash in their pocket and there that I believe, was instrumental in her picking targets. She also seem to pick for her targets whenever it picker targets and committed murder. Whenever she was in danger of losing terrier terry would talk about going back to her home state? Moving back to ohio pennsylvania and I would from count because she had a borderline personality disorder and have fear of abandonment with massive, so how wave keeping cherry and with her was too bring her money and this the way that shit bring her money and we know she did this and come home say. Look at this look at this now working

the party. Now we can have a great time now I can pay the back rent, etc. So tired, We certainly culpable but was never charged with anything because the is ultimately used her to trap Eileen they they could have trapped. Eileen the ways I'm sure, but then they went that route. They put we're on the phone with Eileen and said: look the cops are coming after me. They think I did this if these are your actions, I don't want to go down for what you did. You need to confess you need to get me out of trouble here and ultimately, that's what I did to save the woman she loved so much so that's or if the rest now this is about Eileen more knows

is born on February. Twenty. Ninth nineteen fifty six, which, as many would know means that she only has a bert they once every four years elite cave av. That strike is this year at leap here. Yes, how fitting? Yes and she would have been sixty this february, twenty nine air. So it's it's hard to say being sixty, but because she stood a fixed in time in my mind as it were, at younger age than that, but yeah she'd have been sixty had she been alive and she was born on the leap year. So I don't know if she felt any neglect or bad feelings, because she didn't have as many birthdays as others, but I do believe that there was some celebrations of birthdays in household.

I think I don't think they had part ease or anything like that, but in some minor celebration of the fact that old shoe birthday as a child now early in her youth, and maybe you can clarify on the age, the particular age. If its known bet, she began sneaking out of a room at night and would perform sexual acts on boys for cigarettes usually or sometimes money it s not oh there and she was eleven or twelve incredibly young, and we know this because the boys, as men told us this told me this, and some of them felt very badly about what they ve done with her when they looked back on what happened late.

One man cried when when I interviewed him and said, do you think you know if I hadn't done what I did with turkey? Think things would have turned out differently. I think What as youngsters seemed failure inconsequential and of course, they no way of knowing how fragile eileen was mentally. But molly was very much else on her own. She had a hair trigger temper. opening really wants to be around her because she had this explosive behaviour. Explosive temper, which, We know anyone who's, seen footage of her in court etc. Probably seen some of her explosive behaviour that was around when she was a young kid and the result was she. She had trouble keeping friends getting trends and keeping friends.

Who wanted to be around that they didn't. So, although they were happy to take advantage of her sexually in their eyes at that age, I don't think that was what was going on- they were possible one year older than her, maybe two years old, there was some question of whether she had sex with Keith. Her brother You know there were various possible fathers for this charge. She had when she was fifteen. She never was definitive about. Who was the father of the baby and frank you. She may not have been able to be Definitive about it at various times, she said it wasn't a guy who look Elvis, it was a friend of her fathers, it's an old guy in the neighbourhood. It was one of these is she named various off them

like so many of stories, this one changed dramatically repeatedly overtime because she was stating who was her first, giving different names, the different people. Do you think that she was using that against those people or that she couldn't really recall, or She just like to tell stories and would tell whichever story she thought would be most memorable at the time she told it s an interesting question regarding who is have first. good question. I don't really know the answer to that. I guess over the years I just got beat so used to hearing so many different versions of everything from Eileen her versions of her crimes. After she was arrested being the most striking

that I dont know what motivated that. Maybe she was protecting somebody. Maybe it was key see there was the reserve and out house behind the house and because of the finish connections the family had they had a solemn back there and the grandfather, slash father, to use the cylinder and the kids be sent into the sauna and I don't know, I was found it very odd- that the grandfather would send the kids. So saw a way that would be naked together. I dont know his role is. Was in all of that too, You know once she said that he was the father of the baby. she wants to deny that I dont know eyes. It is really hard to say she confessed free.

He too having murder people, and yet she was much more cagey about the sexual side of things. Was that more and better seemed to her while she more ashamed of it. I dont know another thing that would happen while she was out with these boys is they were denigrate her and I imagine it because one she didn't really know how to get respect. two, that's how her name was getting around. People would tell stories about errors or, Well, I guess that's all I need to san that, but they will call her nicknames like cigarette bandit or worse cigarette pig. Yes, yes, I think, I think, That's right. I think that she shoe is known as easy, and you can have a review give her this or give her that and.

Two eileen who was so desperate for acceptance. It was something she did. without perhaps even realizing the ramifications that this was actually making it harder for her to be accepted. It is our aim, eating her even more from the rest of the crowd and when the kids would, you know, get together for a kiss sessions or whatever in their fault in the woods she would set to one side, nobody ever wanted to kiss her. Imagine how that must have felt you know you. She started smoking at aged ten and started having sex around eight eleven, possibly her

strong interest in cigarettes, as well as her need to be accepted, lead her down this path. Yes and again, you know it's hard, it's hard to know because she clearly had a wild side to her too. She was in trouble. She stole things from stores. She set a couple of fires, small fires, but she did do you know she committed criminal acts. That was that, aside of her too, that was seeking expression very possibly very possibly she wanted excitement, and I I think she you know, let's look. She once held a knife to her sister's throat when they were babysitting

and said: I'm gonna kill you. I have a sister, we had our fight, but you know that that kind of wasn't on the re job. There were other acts that suggests that there was more rage there. There was more anger, that again was an explosive act. There were various acts like that where she really behaved in a way that is just destined to a nature, but what what triggered that she couldn't control a temper? She couldn't control those explosion. Explosions now, at the time I've never heard of anything call them. What is that. explosive behaviour, disorder or some such and looking back. You know, I think well, was that what she had, because from her youth on up that behaviour was

was very evident and when I wrote about the parts of her life down in florida, you know she sheets threatened bus drivers. She threatened people in stores. She got into a kind of trouble that involved a great I am a threatening behaviour, people, scared of her. One of us say that people seem to me acts along the lines of all. You know who could be scared of it, because I feel empathy for her, but she could be very scary, I spoke to men who had given her I'd one guy in particular, sticks in my mind. He wanted her out is called because she frightened him. So they pulled him Yes, and he asked her to go in the store to buy some cigarettes. I guess and when she got out his car he locked the door and drove away so

and then there was another chap she wanted to write in her life store. This is before the murders she confessed to domestic, She wanted her life story written. She wanted a book about herself. She wanted to be like Bonnie implied, she wanted thing, and so she was talking to this guy. Who was a bus drivers, slash writer and in I thought maybe he would write the book and he got very scared. of her and didn't want anything to do with him when he saw her again. Another time he ran in the back of the storm. Treasure from her, and if you try to borrow from here- and it really became a question of he had to do- go if that money, and just say what I'm not gonna, see that again so there were many instances where she scared people as an adult, as it kid all the way along the ride. Really, let's talk

but our home life, her grandfather, slash dad. is lowry warn us, but I come to understand that people, I called him Larry, because his name was similar to his daughters, yeah. I think I think so. People found it a bit difficult you I understood it perhaps more with given the european connotation the spelling, L, a u r, I lowery some people holding Larry, I guess and then lorry elbow I laurie. so loudly and laurie I didn't to bring loud larry into the mix for a couple of reasons. Firstly, rickets more confusing, already confusing, enough, and then there was a larry who was a friend who he and his wife were one of the couple the little eileen keys were left with when Diane abandon them

So you know I already had separate those just to keep the story stream so her parents who she thought were where parents for quite some time were lowry and Britain warn us risks. Larry and britain warner fear and lorry and britain had several of their own children which were diane lorry and bury yes. Now one of the things that did effect I lean and to an extent her brother keith- was because they were not, and they did note at the time because they were not actually the children of lowry and breccia. They were treated differently right and it was very apparent. So could you at least give bay a scenario that would explain how they were treated differently, especially when it came to say punishment? Yes, this may have been the difference in the personality. To imagine I mean with her explosive behaviour

naughty behaviour as it were, and I think Eric and lorry was simply more disciplined, were they behave as good children in clumps might where's. The next generation Eileen and keys were much. Rebellious, however, It was also the element that lowry must have had a lot of resentment against Diane, leaving her kids with him and giving in is added responsibility. and when britta and of raising her children, you know it's bad enough to just disappear, but he had to raise her two children. Of course he would be pretty It's about that, but he was also a nasty mean drunk and when she missed

I have Eileen. He would whip her with a leather belt. He would make her take her shorts down and he would whip her across the buttocks with a leather belt. So I don't think that ever happened. To lorry or to battery or anything like it, because I think they were just more. I think they were just well behaved, children, the feeling I get morrison agile, very shy very quiet when she first heard the news that Eileen had been arrested for these crimes is a serial killer. Not only was she horrified that she saw, nobody would ever want to speak to her again so that the very different personalities in these two sets of generations, if you Britain, we later learned, was also a drinker. She didn't.

come out and scream and shout as much, but she was in the house and she was quietly drinking and I think that her drinking was pretty extreme. So it was. It was a house with alcoholism, know who knows maybe It was worse when these kids for kids than when their own kids for kids is that's quite a big age gap. That is, you know twenty years in between, but that was that was the environment in which I lean and keith grew up and keys. You know- and I will come to this at some point. The case you know was dead age, twenty one from cancer, so. I was left alone again on that very emotional level, because those two very very close- and that was a terrible loss, apparently eileen had many good things to say about britain, but do you believe that there is respect there was

love there, or is that just as you say, maybe among her so called parents may be her favorite? So that's why she tended to speak well of her and I would say that compared to the grandfather, Britta was someone she favoured. However, it is also that story I believe night. I need to check aaron really but I think she spat on her cotton fear a am I making it up. I think it is britain versus fuel. so. She had a lot of ambivalence feelings. There too, I don't think I would say she was a great fan of richer. If I said that in the book on, I need you to, point me to it. I think that there were some normality, but I'd I'd never got the sense that there is any great warm relationship there. For the rest, I helped her out of trouble and look at the facts she got pregnant. She didn't feel she could tell Britain

laurie funny said to hurry crazy, she's gonna to any minute she's going to notice should not using sanitary, napkins she's going to notice. This is she's, not just that but eileen at fourteen when she found herself pregnant just hit it. She just well worn sweaters, and so there was no intimacy really. Then there was no closeness right ass, because, whereas I read your book, I was thinking that she may have said nice. Things about her by Britain ever helped her out and she never seemed that involved in her life. As you said, when she got pregnant, you think that by two. She would notice something or month three, but she never really in we never really spoke of anything, so it was almost like hands off and she let lowry pretty much dictate

what happened with Eileen in the house. We have to see how things worth mentioning is the island had a hearing problem and Britain knew about this. It was brought to her attention at least twice by school starve, and she had a hearing problem and the teacher said this chart needs help. She come here promptly, etc and britches reaction was that's ridiculous, they're wrong. She nor did not just once but twice there was also a letter in her file at school, which is along. The lines of this chart needs help, meaning counselling so there were signs that were ignored and Britain apparently didn't want to see we're here, the more she just ignore them. She turned. blind. I know whether this was because she had her face in a bottle of wine.

Eleven o clock in the morning, I really don't know, but she certainly didn't help. I lean she didn't take any steps that might have been important. Whether any of them would have been important enough to make a big difference in what came later. I don't know, but at least things together and, as I have said to you, in her before I think of it like a stack of dominance, and you have all these things stepping up against her and you at an altogether and eventually there is a tipping point, and In her case, we ve got a lot of dominoes so far we ve gone so far in her life. There are about the dominoes and there are more to come and at a certain point that stack of dominoes crash the question with people such as I lean. Is it nature? Was she bore in this way or is it nurture? She had all horrible life and subsequently lost all respect for life,

You mentioned in your summary about her birth father, whom she never met as we know, but his name is LEO pitman. and you also talked about his nineteen sixty two offence of kidnapping and raping a seven year. The girl, but he was also suspected of the rape and murder of a child, or at least you mention it in the book, is. Is there any more information on that? Could he have been just this horrible person for some time and it eventually caught up to him and said he was a suspect and I think that's all we can say, because it took me a very long time to get his files from the f b I and it was very limited when I did get them and they were limited in such a way that I really told the story as best I could based on what was in there and if it was a suspicion, then that's all I can

They tell you, I don't. You have a name of a potential victims, so there is no one to verify it, so this is a character who, while not directly involved with I lean at least he was directly involved in her dna. So this would bring up the question of what was in sight of her. What why she born with an leo pitman certainly can make the case that she possibly was born with a propensity towards crime or violence. Yes, I do believe that at the heart of all this is is a mixture of nature versus nurture too many experts with too many differing opinions and so much more to learn on all of this. There are not even going to stick my neck out and try to say what I think it is, but I certainly feel that we know enough to know the genes a powerful

you couldn't have a genetic predisposition to what's being tall, although it may be that one of fifty genes that potentially affect you paid top. Certainly there are genes that affect other things. Let me know more and more about as time goes on and yes, there is enough. Enough has been done to suggest that not There's a criminal, jean necessarily but criminality is not hereditary, but a creek disposition towards the propensity for it. Maybe that's the best way. I deduce what I've read openly is lowry in nineteen. Seventy six ends up commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. Was staying with, bury your son and he made sure the garage or was

closed and started the car up and when bury arrived home, he found his father across the front seat. That's right! That's right! So. Another suicide in this family, although I don't think eileen lost any sleep over his death. But yes- and you know quite why he killed himself- I dont know guilt, possibly This episode is brought to you by peacock prison. Doing the original limited series, a friend of the family. on the story of the Jan proper kidnappings from nick and oscar executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer. Eliza hip and comes a dark, compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself, this theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only

on peacock. Take a to get away from our sponsor racked racket. Ten is the smartest and most rewarding way to shop and save earned cash back. Over thirty five hundred stores and every single category like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals travelled, dining subscription services and much more membership is free, and it's really easy to sign up rocketing depend it's your cash directly into your paypal account or they can send you a check. Two, no brainer, you can earn cash, for what you already are shopping for rocketing. Has fifteen million members who are already saving Store all your shopping, rackets and outcome or get the rackets an app to start saving. Today, that's racket in our aid. Hey you t and dot com. I gotta go see inside his mind because he wasn't someone had access to

to interview. Obviously, and it's hard to know, we can only speculate, but he this is clearly a troubled man, an alcoholic I don't believe he ever stopped drinking, but what tipped him into suicide. I don't know from reading your book and Perhaps this just my perception, but I had the feeling that lowry had a mix of issues. He was very authoritative and very demanding a drunkard, and while he was perhaps left without us wife. He started to assess the situation and saw that he didn't have much value to his life. and he was staying with his son, and so he didn't exactly turn out how he wanted to. I don't think so be very tough to swallow for a person whose drinking all the time. As we know, alcohol can be a downer. Yes, yes, no. I think this is,

true and that may well be. The answer may well be that mix of issues and possibly somewhere if he had any kind of conscience whatsoever, a little voice in his head about what he had done to his wife, his kids and the way he had been abusive. That may have been a factor we just don't know about that end of things but yeah. I think it had to be a mix of issues and we'll never know the answer to those specific elements. I suppose, if we want to give them credit, we would say that he did realize perhaps the damage that he's caused over time or that he'd caused over time and that he was remorseful and that he did what he felt he had to do. Well, that may be giving yeah. I mean, if we're being, if we're being nice to him, if we're being really kind. Yes, yes, I mean was

in my mind, was diane talking to the police in telling them about when she had girlfriends stay over and. The girlfriend woke up in the night and allow was in the bedroom and she told him go away, go away. You shouldn't be here or whatever, and also another time when Diane was asked by Larry to give her a kiss and he stood a stuck his hung down her throat in a very non fatherly way, and that was quite shocking to her. But, of course, if he was drunk would do you remember those behaviors those incidents, I dont know They certainly some bad from our perspective and others. The tip of the iceberg was the full on sexual abuse, Was that an element with diane, she was certainly can't get after that house or

Andrew Eileen writing I remember you talking about lorry and lorry, maintaining that there was no abuse, that she seemed confident of that. But you give enough other evidence that possibly she would not know if it was going on right and she was very much the. As I said, very the general peacemaker head in the sand type really is there we'll, send a signal street. I don't think she tell me about it and she may even have wanted to countenance it herself or think about it. Just like to take a moment here. We're talking today with sue russell about her book lethal intent, which is about people where the most notorious female serial killer in history. I lay more knows

is, was popularized in the movie monster starring charlie's thereon. But if you'd like to get the real story, if you want to find out what led up to these murders and her subsequent conviction, then you have to read the book lethal intent. Audible has hundred eighty thousand titles, but did subject it's one you're going to want to know the entire backstory on and lethal intent will not disappoint it's a large book, but it will keep your interest. Thing you ever wanted to know is in this book. Islands my history, her relationships, her arrest. and the murders to get your free audio book of lethal intent and start. Your three thirty day, trial, visit, audible, podcast come forward, slash generation, why that's d and e r eighty, I o n w h. Why? Thank you. I would like to talk about a couple of relationships

I lean had and the one that really start to me as far as males go was J. Why it's and the reason that is because he took an interest in her which she enjoyed, and he was very patient with her. He didn't push. and so I think she felt ass though he was good boyfriend material and I believe that she counts him as her first real boyfriend yet which

would lend credence to your thought that she was probably bisexual, because she did seem to put some effort into some of these relationships with these guys and Jay seemed to take care of her and even got her a car. So what do you remember about Jay? I remember a lot about J and J was one of only a couple of people in the book where I didn't change the name at his request. He would only be interviewed on that condition, but I spent quite a lot of time with him and with another very reputable

Mutual acquaintance, so I was confident in the story I was getting at. He was. He was a very nice man. He was a nice guy. He lost a lot with his memories of Eileen, but I think they had a good time together. He looked back on it with some sort of fondness and with laughter. I think he was somebody who would have helped some If someone out you know- and I think he tried to with her- he went to visit her in jail. She was in the prior for her attempted armed robbery and he went and visited her. He did get her a call he she did have these people. I think she really wanted to be loved and, yes, he was potentially good boyfriend material and there were a couple of people like that in her life, where you could say there was money involved insofar as he looks

after her, but it wasn't like you know, we're going have sex now. He is fifty bucks. It was. They were in a relationship, however long lasted it didn't last they worry relationship and I think that I think he was a nice guy and I think he really long term. Now, of course, he didn't like her behaviour when it went off the rails and when they had a big fight him she got drunk and stormed off, etc, but there we go again with the experts Massive part, you know that comes in, but he was in her life in an out of her life, as was the other party that I am referring to the four pillars. time and they didn't go in and out of her life, just one something they were round and this stage in touch and they helped around for sure.

one of the reasons that he really stood out as he wanted to have sex with her when he first met her, but he was patient about it and didn't push it and after he had sex with her, it seemed as though he would prefer to go golfing with her that he really enjoyed her company Is that stands out because I was thinking about what kind of talents did this woman, how I lean when she was younger. She showed some artistic abilities and then later we that she had a pretty good game of gulf. So what do you make of these?

things. Are these possibly indications that if she had had a better environment that she could a port herself into these talents and develop them more and may be given her life a better purpose? Personally, I don't think that they would have overload this emotional mass, this psychological cables that she was subjected to in her own brain. I just don't think they could have out way the turmoil that went on and could have out wait her ability to shoot herself in her own foot. If you know what I mean, I don't think the issue maybe she would have had a better level of art history. Maybe she would have paid at a gulf, but I just can't see it outweigh everything else was so wrong. She was an alcoholic

it struck me and was you know she never really talked about drugs doing drugs, and I found this odd because, as a kid she did drugs but then later in life it was all alcohol. Now I think, as a prostitute, you know often prostitutes will be offered drugs or money. You know I'll give her a gram of coke. I will give you fifty bucks whatever I was this because in her mind, doing drugs was somehow more shameful than drinking or prostituting herself, it's hard to know because she had a normal way of doing all this, but I just don't

things that will ever she did. I hate to say that she was on a course for disaster, but I'm the kind of field like she was. I just don't think she had a chance. Really. We ve maybe meant she twenty things. Twenty strikes against her. If we were looking at two or three perhaps, but you know they pile up, they keep piling up, were where's the stuff. On the other side, the work in the other direction beyond being somewhat good, often having a good game of golf. It's just not there is it. I agree you can have ass these things because you never know yet there are probably people that say if I didn't, we a writer. I don't know where I would be right now or invited become a bowler. I dont know where my life would have gone. Sometimes people if they pour themselves into what they love day, can overcome things. But I agree she

add too much, whether biological or environmental, to overcome it with some painting yeah, and you know, even if you pull what you want change of writing or what you're good at you can check an art of some kind. It's not going to counteract the fact that you throw a bus driver of the bus, or you know these other things that she did these crimes. She committed that will you know if they were building over time. She had a rap sheet. She was not someone who came fresh from a great childhood and then suddenly started killing people. It was. It was a slow process. It got worse and worse. At some point, I lean meets the love of her life, which is

Tiree more, and I think it would be at least based on the book that you wrote and my having read it. I think that she had found someone that she could consider her companion, her true com, anyone and also around this time is when I lean starts to murder. You have that right. You have that right. As far as we know this I mean I, I still always had that little question mark in my mind I think, might have a question mark about starts to murder is more, did she see something? Did she see some kind of murder when she was hanging out with the bike? What did she see some act of violence, the prep she committed herself- I don't know, but yes, the noma, just the one. She was a confess to the six of the seven. She was convicted of

again around then- and I do believe that that was tied in with I have mad love for tyrion and her desperate, desperate need to hang on to her, no matter what she would do. Whatever it took. I I think, that's more than a coincidence, I think you're right. It's just interesting to me because she me diarrhoea in a bar name, zodiac correct in nineteen eighty six right, which is kind of interesting, I would have to say, given the a year and the name of the bar for anyone. That knows the zodiac killer case, but she styrene more, and this is a real connection. This isn't just some person is willing to hang out with her. This is of a very

wrong relationship, and yet I lean is still prostituting and she's going to meet a man who becomes her first victim was wretched mallory, and that was the one

that you know where I took issue with the movie monster because it in the movie they portrayed that she killed him to save her own life during a particularly violent and vicious rape. The evidence showed something rather different, which was that he was sitting in the driver's seat of his car, fully dressed the first of four bullets. Switching to the side of his arm fired from the passenger's seat into his arm on the street, the rest of his body, and then they both got out of the sides of the car and I'd have to check exactly where the rest of the bullets were, but I think at least a couple of them wearing his back as he tried to run away

the four bullets so and what this is, what she told police when she was arrested when she talked about all the earth is in a very jumbled faction, very much was drunk during all of them, so the data model, but she said something the effect of you know. I thought he might not pay me. I thought he might. pay me and take his money back? I thought he might

there are a variety of things that suggested that he hadn't actually done anything wrong, at least not yet, but she thought she could and then she started talking about. I couldn't leave any witnesses. I didn't want to leave any witnesses, and that was something she said with each of these murders that you know if she was convicted of attempted murder, it could be worse for her than being convicted of murder. So when she confessed to the police- and it was a three hour confession- video to take the fashion that was kind of the way that those stories were told a year later when she was on the witness stand during her trial, and I believe her defense team truck very hard to talk her out of testifying or she wouldn't be talked out that she then told this story, which was some draw. Dropping may differ, which was that the first

and they got on very well. She said that, originally by the way she said they got on very well. They'd sat in the woods drinking vodka and orange juice for five hours. He said she was like a therapist. He really liked talking to her, etc. When she took the witness stand, she said that he had tied her hands to the steering wheel with electrical cords from a stereo. that he had raped her with rubbing alcohol in advising both laugh, some kind of squirt a buckle in that variety and reportedly orifices that he had been brutal with her, and that was somehow she got free know. This will make you laugh perhaps, but I know you do these kinds of things as the russia, I tried to

reenact for myself in a house would have worked if he was tied to a steering wheel in a just generally had what would have been In any event, she got free of him and then she shot him bear in mind that he was fully closed at the time behind the wheel in the driver's seat and this story was just stunningly different and, of course this was the story or something close to it. The monster the movie followed along. That's or alone, but nobody involved in the case believe that story for one moment. First of all, the evidence didn't time of it. So when she killed her she then very mind if she would have just been brutally raped, how many victims, who do this she turned his pockets inside out. She took him.

Only she rolled him up in a rug covered him with leaves, and then she drove off in his car, she does the whole she buried the vodka bottle, the terminals, let cook it's whatever they thought current orange had been found, but no electrical quotes were ever fabric, so that was a new element to the story that was not substantiated by what the police found in the spot, where she dumped the things that were in the car. At that moment, she then drove his car back to the motel she went inside. She talked to rich. She said I killed a man today. Ty was watching tv time I would say later that she showed no signs of distress were bleeding or of any kind of physical harm whatsoever and sheep produced the spoils. If you Will a crime apart from the money? There were other things like richard memories,

men's only jacket and wallets and various other. You know items that he had about it or had in his car, and then she got rid of his car fairly quickly as the crimes when on she kept the a little longer and the one the body she couldn't remember she left it. She actually kept his car for over a things about four weeks, ultimately, which is taking a bit of a chance that face it. The ritual mary was her first, the tim to wish she could best. We could go through all these murders, but essentially she would get a guy alone, they would be in a car and she would get them to think she was going to have sex with them, but she would end up murdering them and taking their belongings, and it seems like her emma would be to drive away and then ass she went, she would just throw stuff out of the car, yes and so

well scattering items all over the place like that. It meant that collecting all those items and would be very difficult right. That's right- and I don't know you know the the the burying of the vodka powerful than the orange juice or whatever. I don't know why. I doubt that it was very much. I think it's a bit of sand over it. Justice, mallory's body had a bit of cockpit and some brown she's over it, and I don't think she missed digging grades or anything like that. But, yes, there was a lot of throwing things out the window, which of course then led the cops to have to retrace his steps and search for, anything that could be related and at times they did find items that were directly related and help with the case now, you said earlier on in the summary that-

diarrhoea more may have known more than she led on. What do you think this is about? Is this just her protecting herself trying to protect Eileen a bit or how would you say this happen that way. That she would not be so forthcoming. I would say I'm not going to tell you how and why I say this, but I will say on ferry, confident in it. I would say that she thought that this was something that Eileen had to get out of your system and having done it once, she would do it again and then was kind of shocked when she did do it yeah. But was also seduced by and now I'm going on, my own version of what I think happened. I look so was seduced by the spoils of the crimes, because, let's face it, these girls who lived in the bullets they lived in,

very cheap. You know campers down there. They lived rough a lot of the time such a get six hundred bucks. That's a lot of money suddenly to have in your pocket. So that was pretty seductive, I think, and I do think that she was seduced by that and yeah. I think she wanted to stay. He wants to go back to the cold weather when they can stay in florida or you know they were good companions. They they hung out. They drank a lot a lot a lot. You know The two cases of beer day it was a deep friendship, was love, loving friendship. I think the sex terry was almost irrelevant personally and from water stop by others. There wasn't a lot of sex after that initial meeting in the initial phase. Let's put it that way, but career was seduced by what it was easy for her too.

A blind eye. People turn a blind eye to a lot of things. Only air and my your blind eye, she got to be in the company of its money. Now I know that it struck me at some point. I thought wow. This is really interesting. That Tyrion sister had come down to visit. She was supposed to come for six weeks and spend a vacation with them and She- and I really did not hit it off at all, but during that period, time. During that period of time I mean killed. Three men in, I believe it six weeks, a very short period of time talk about accelerating. I usually this sir. Kill ass. You may see acceleration, but this is like a cluster and so the more I thought about it, the more I thought the system trying to lure tie to move back to ohio

and I was scared to death if she would go so what You know how to do to try to stop. This happening come home with more money. So I believe I was We believe that that lead to her killing so many times in such a short period, time and then the murders slow down again a bit, not locked but a bit. So I think that's what is going on there and, yes, I think she did have bury her head in the sand, and she didn't really want to deal with any of this, but she knew, and she would tell you she knew she would tell you she could have saved lives if she didn't say that me. She said it to somebody and I have it somewhere on paper and she felt bad about that, but not bad enough to do anything at the time. Unfortunately, to finish shop I wouldn't mind:

talking a bit about. I guess the angle that I took and I've read your book twice now. The thing that I was left with was okay, so you can have your nature verses, nurture argument and we could debate it all day long with Eileen, because she seems to have both in spades by it I saw along the way that this was a person who perhaps was reaching out for love, and she just didn't know how to do it and even J said that she really seem to like feeling even more than the sex, and same with higher. She just like to be helped you like to be in someone's company and to feel loved, and I wonder, again this is another wonder, but what if she had been able to indulge

in that and really have what were the very least, be a loving, secure relationship, because she never really did get that. No, I think, that's a very pertinent wonder. I think that's a very good one on your part and I think that it's very relevant or would have been very relevant quite possibly because there was that desire for the cuddling that was stepped aside for the closeness. If there had been a way for her to overcome her own propensity for driving people away. if she had met the right person if they have been the right person in the household, if there had been a teacher who had taken her under her wing and really you know, there's all kinds of ways, these elements can be brought into a child's life. And yes, I I do think that if she had that, that may have been the one thing that.

Could have made a difference, but I think it would have had to go along with some psychological counselling with help with some of the other issues, the anger issues the inner, but, yes, I do think it could emotive. I think you're right there and I'm not saying that she never would have murdered to me this. send that I see with her handcuffs up against her throat and stating that if she wasn't put to death that she would go on killing morphine

Well, to me this was anger. It was outrage against this life of abandonment and denigration that she lived and she was striking back. She was one as you state in the book. She was one that if she were hurt, her ready response was to be angry. It wasn't to cry and to beg people to feel sorry for her. It was to lash out, and so that's that's what I see with the handcuffs against the throat and those mad eyes. She was very, very angry and very spiteful about the life she'd led and about how she was not accepted. That's right, that's right and when a jury found her guilty, she lashed out at them. You know scumbags of america and she really thought that she would be found not guilty. She did.

I happen to speak to her briefly the day before that. Third, it came in by phone, and she sounded so upbeat, and I asked her how she was feeling you know how things are going. Whatever and she clearly, this very optimistic align And the hanging up the phone thinking- oh my god, you know what is going to happen tomorrow and she was not prepared for a guilty verdict at all. She bought She thought that they would see her Y know what her. Why was, I dont know because is there a way you can explain killing these people and bear in mind that had first trial, which only trial was richard? Memories, murder, but the other victims were allowed to be mentioned, because the judge ruled that by similar fact evidence those cases will submit aloud

he mentioned so that the jury was considering it up six men and how did she think that they were going to turn their backs this? It was shocking really to think that she thought the date that they would be behind her, in that way, but that's what she thought somehow somewhere in her brain, she thought she was gonna. Get away with all this Possibly we can answer it by looking at what support she does have. Should we not have people marching for her that when you ask people what they think there are sympathisers out there, that say well, look at her childhood or these men, Abused her yeah, and so there is some understanding out there and perhaps that's what she was looking for, but the very fact that she never really had much of that prior in her life.

makes me question why she would be so optimistic people generally disappointed her, or at least that's the way. It seemed in any point some, both levels that isn't just like with J J would say yeah. I really liked her, but jade didn't look at her as his future wife no net. She looked at him and thought this is my guy, so No, there was loved therein and I think he respected her, but it still comes down to. She always wanted more. well, you know, borderline personalities can be it's. You know

very, very needy off very needy and can be very difficult to be around. So I've been told many times, and I think that her needs were really just overwhelming, and so, even with the best one in the world to find someone who could fill those needs was going to be a very hot high bar to reach and probably practically impossible. But I I think, your point about the the defenders she has now people who I have empathy for Eileen. I always had empathy for writing. I had more emphasis when I was writing about her childhood a bit less when I was writing about dealing with the families of the murder victims then ultimately back my position of somewhere in the middle, but since I ve always been struck by this gender biased question of. Does anyone ever feel the same when

europe is a mail. Does anyone ever feel? Why is it that we don't? make the same allowances for men who kill multiple times that we seem to. be willing to make for someone like Eileen, always saying that those men never had childhoods that, whereas horrific always What are we saying? Really? I I don't know the answer, but it's a question that bangs around my head quite a bit and I think it's an interesting one. The factor that probably is at play here is that women are generally not serial killers and usually are serial killers. Women usually aren't the numbers just aren't there. So if we're talking statistics, I think they're saying well, this doesn't happen as often so maybe it's not her fault. I think that's very true, and also I think,

that many male serial killers are sexually violent predators and, personally, I see Irene ass, a robber who killed someone who wrote people and then killed them to avoid leaving witnesses. She was a predator. She just go out to seek out her prey and she had a series of criteria that she met before select. king who she was going to kill. I think we can be very sure about that, but it was different. It was different and you're right again, you're right, I guess the bottom line is. I find her and the topic endlessly floating even after she's been gone. Fourteen years you know, time remember interviewing the late robert ressler, who was one of the behavioral profiles that started the behavioral profiling, unity, the fbi and off

in him. You know we can see more any more citizen. He said you know. Well that The big question are we, and if we do we're going have to rewrite the whole rulebook and at the time we had no crew. We didn't know was this the beginning. It was a very violent time. Crime rates were very high all over the place, and we didn't know if this was the big. of a trend always was an anomaly since we can look back and say yes, they have been in she's, not the most prolific serial killer in history that certainly in modern times among females she's right up there and its hard to think in a modern day female who exceeds her death toll, but I think that difference you delineated, it is, is probably the best one. There is, but then, of course, the people

The researching genetics would say: well, if you inherit some of these traits, should people be held responsible for their actions. If, if it's all inherited research field is so fascinating air and I was reading something about it this morning. You know that you have the whole people accountable for their crimes, but. If some of it is beyond their control, lot of it is beyond their control. Just how accountable to we hold them. I don't know

We could go on all night right, that's right! Yes, I guess we could finish up here. Is there anything else? You'd like to say: do you have another book that's out or coming out the most recent book that I wrote is illustrated the courtroom fifty years of courtroom art- and that was a book that I wrote with five quote artist: incredibly accomplished cool tosses, my cool. If it was one of the illustrator Elizabeth Williams and they range the trials ranged over fifty years from things like watergate, and the black panthers and charles man sir end in a whole way or not to Michael Jackson.

in early may dolphin fantastic artwork, and I read the words that one with lose out, and that was a fund projects. I don't know what comes next will see as reminder. If anyone is interested in reading lethal intent, you can find it at amazon and most any other place where you can order books, and I highly recommend it again. I've read it twice, so that tells you anything and it's a very large book, but so complete, and so I would say such a fair account because you could have gone in a direction that was very biased, either for or against her. But you seem to include every bit of information that you could lay your hands on and I would say if we could leave the list

as with anything, is there any way you can describe the amount of research that went into this because seems like a lot of work. Yes, it was a loss of research that for the research and writing it took a couple of years. I would say yes, so a big project. No doubt about that, and I updated it for two thousand thirty new additions to the latest edition, which is available on amazon, has some updates and some new photographs, and you know some extra information. So even now it's a work in progress. Thank you and I hope I hope people will give it a read, give it a try and let me know what you think it was great to talk with you. Likewise, thank you. having me and good luck with your great show, I note has a big following and I am happy to have been invited. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this episode of the generation. Why podcast? It was sponsored by audible, dot, com,

with more than a hundred thousand titles available. There's something for everyone. You can get your free audio book and free thirty day trial by visiting audible, podcast, dot, com forward, slash generation. Why the the. In the late sixteen hundreds, the coast of north america, became a hotbed of piracy, but american pirates

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