December 15, 2017. Toronto, Canada. Barry & Honey Sherman were wealthy philanthropists who were well-respected members of their community. But after they were found dead in their home, their business and personal lives were analyzed for clues to their murderer(s). Most clues seemed to point to Barry being the target. He had acquired and sold a family business which some believe cheated multiple family members out of their rightful shares of the company and his long running litigation with other pharmaceutical companies had some people wondering if bad blood could have turned to murder. Join us as we discuss an ongoing case that has plenty of clues but little evidence.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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in price line knows every trip is a big deal. So when you're ready to book your next one check out price line, dot com, for the easiest way to get more how an extent vacations so tonight's case it's definitely an unsolved murder, although I think the reason why we're talking about it is because it's one of those unsolved murders where we all sit there and look at it and think we know who the suspect is. We just haven't gone after them, yet right, maybe and the other thing here is is a high profile case. Very some very, not even rich people, it's the top one percent of the one percent these are built, in airs. There's allegations of corporate espionage and multiple enemies skeletons in the closet, family strife. So what are we talking about?
neither tonight we're talking about the murders of berry and honey sherman who lived in north york ontario. Let's talk about who These people were because if you do know who they were, you would know that they were very, very wealthy billionaires. You would know that They were philanthropists, you will also know that they were murdered in two thousand. Seventeen bernard, Charles bury Sherman was born in february of nineteen forty two in toronto. He was born in Jewish family, his parents were herbert and Sarah sherman when he was ten years old. His dad died. It was a heart attack. His mother went back to work as an occupational therapist barry attended forest hill collegiate high school graduated, with top. barks, smart guy, while still enrolled there. He s,
into a national physics contest which he one spot a summer as a nasa in turn, and he often worked at empire laboratories, which was run by his uncle lewis, lloyd winter. That now he's. Gonna come up a lot more, very important name in this whole story. But, as you can see very is the kind of guy that's destined for big things. Not only has he been born into a very privileged life, but he's sharp as a whip and is making the most of it very graduated college with used honours even one be governor generals award for his thesis. one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven. He attended the massachusetts institute of technology, that's a mighty on a scholarship and he attained,
is phd in astrophysics. It sounds like this. Guy can pretty much do whatever skies the limit or wait space is the limit honey sherman, was born in eighteen. Forty, eight her family had emigrated to toronto from Austria. She graduated from university of toronto. She met berry and nineteen. Seventy through a mutual friend. Honey. Sherman was a board member of bay, crest centre york, universe, the foundation and mount sinai hospital. She and her huh then donated fifty million dollars to the united jewish appeal and she the chair of the eye jewish appeal campaign, two thousand six where this stuff,
to get interesting is louis lloyd, who was running empire, will end up passing away, berry and friend, name. Joel Ulster will end up purchasing empire laboratories for an estimate of three hundred fifty thousand dollars. They offered five percent option two voids for children, so it was fifteen year royalty on for the company's patented products and they sold the company in nineteen. Seventy two here, Add this company that would have ensured children would have gotten a percentage of and then he ended up selling the company so now the children of lloyd, probably aren't going to see much from the sale that a good analysis
we had a response to have equity in the company, which would be worth quite a bit of money, but their fathers companies gone now in Q, strife and a family once things go off on the wrong foot, in a family, and it concerns money, a lot of money. You know where it goes My grandmother is in her nineties the buzzards circling for what's laughed and who's, gonna get what in the inheritance- and I want nothing to do with it myself. I've seen this tear other families apart, and you can only imagine when there's millions of dollars up to billions of dollars where's that people may or may not feel entitled to so bury made millions of dollars on the sale. and then went on to
become the largest shareholder of another company, which was bar laboratories, he became its president is well now he's a course making very good money. He's learning the generic pharmaceuticals market very well, it seems to be his passion. He actually got into this for the right reasons. Said, brand name. Drugs are too expensive and when they put him out, they wanna recoup all there are t and make as much money as possible, because I mean, let's just face it: the pharmaceutical company there not really in it to cure the disease therein for money very actually wants people to have access to these drugs. You're gonna find out more about his personality, but he might be an arrogant jerk, but it seems that he's doing this for at least the right reasons. Yes, he's going,
make millions off this endeavor, but he wants to do generic pharmaceutical manufacturing. So over these I'd, say critical years. Berries really get settled in seventy one. He marries honey right who becomes honey sherman. Obviously they end up. Having for kids Jonathan foreign Kalen in Alexandria in nineteen. Seventy three: he started up attacks, which was his own generic pharmaceutical. Come by twenty sixteen. That company was manufacturing over two hundred sixty per ex was sold in more than a hundred fifteen countries and employed more than ten thousand people revenue.
His per year were about one point: five billion dollars, something that Barry does with this success of his new company is he wants to get these generic drugs out on the market as soon as possible, a brand name once it's patent runs out, there's supposed to be a grace period of some time, Maybe a year before the generics can hit the market bury didn't really care about that grace period, so he got into a lotta lawsuits in litigation with a lot of these brandname drug companies, because he didn't, long enough to come out with the generics litigation all over the place. Success is not always positive. He had a lotta rivals. Most of which were executives. Indeed, branded pharmaceutical companies. There was a german company bear. As most of you know, they were
vince that sherman was violating its patents, they hired private investigators, recruited employees within berries company. They were trying to gather as much information as they could. Of course, bear denies all this. So here is the corporate espionage tat people here about in this case so bury had a very interesting relationship with other pharmaceutical companies, namely the brand name ones you just talked about just end by he and his wife honey. They gave our money away. She is spent molly was in favour of charity work they sent fifty million dollars worth of medicine to disaster zones between two thousand and seven and two thousand and seventeen. So because we're talking about the murders of barry and honey sherman
We need to delve a little deeper into the other family members will absolutely the figures. I dont believe myself that another com but he would put a hit out on em, but we'll get into that later. What's up a berries, cousins and family, were berry was looking to take over empire laboratories. There's no doubt that's what his goal was Berry was always aiming high. He visited his aunt, who was in the hospital and he was trying to say hey. I can help the company, I mean it. position to do so. The winters Children were not in a position to do much with the company. They were the kids. They were young there too young to do anything. They couldn't run this big company. That is how it was
Let me just add to that is even when they grew up at least two of them. They're not run in anything the other two little more successful, but they didn't have what I would call c e, o or executive qualities. So berries like look with your husband gone this company. Spiral out of control. It would lose all its value. You wouldn't have anything left you'll be in bankruptcy court in a year. Let me view, and so he said, let me run the company. I'll keep running? And then let me buy it. Let me prove I can run it and then let me buy it in that way would still be kind of in the family. Beverly winter dies before me. Indecision just days after her death bury made that same proposal to trust these of winters They were to lawyers and accounting and royal trust
they refused and said. They'll just run the business themselves very, looked into empires performance check back with the trust ease, and hey you how this company is losing sales, they lost more than two thousand dollars? He said, if you guys don't if anything, the winter family. Mike after you as you screwed this up its negligent. You have a duty to your shareholders. You have a duty to your trustees and that that kind of threat or information, whatever you say, from bury. It had a definite impact, because inside of a week the company was put up for sale and who buys it. Of course it's better there in his friend Mr Allister. They ended up outbidding another montreal firm. There were options included to protect the children who were orphans now
so any of them hitting twenty one or completing a formal education. They would have the right to purchase five percent of the company after having worked there for two years. That's kind of important, because this is just the opportunity. Dont forget this. Now it's the opportunity, after working there for two years to purchase, shares worth five per cent. But they don't even get that far right? Well, I bring this up because later there will be some contention about having equity in it. company. So we just need remember what the facts are exactly under: barry sherman and his friend Ulster sales increase right. Yes, they do They actually bring the company back into a profit margin, so another company, I see and expresses an interest in buying empire. This is
Nineteen thirty two they want emerged in with their canadian operations, but there's a condition that they make that no principle shareholder could go into the same business for five years, so they're just protecting their interests and then they're talking about it's almost like a nun pete clause. It's exactly that because think about a very sermons really good at this, and he sells it, company and then starts and other one he can just do the same thing. Only he's made a bunch of money and he's doing it again. Sir Barry shares with empire were held under bernard sherman ltd. Pretty much a shell company and not bury himself a smart move. Yeah I mean, if you're a businessman. This is how this works. I understand all the legal ramifications of non compete clauses and why they do these things, but they should read the freakin contract very starts. Appetite acts
and he's doing the same thing he's competing. I mean this company It's a basically right away and now he's not only competing but he's competing at an advantage, because the buyer company is now in debt from the purchase and he is now in a profit margin to start a new company, so he's got an advantage. This is the way the world works, can't say I like it, but he's not doing anything illegal. So we already said that the winters children weren't really in a position to do much. It didn't like at the time they were really fighting to do much while they were children, their pre, teens and teenagers. So yeah right, but one child in particular, is carried out. Peter in nineteen. Seventy three, which is, I think, the year that attacks was incorporated. He was twelve, He goes on to have a bit of a rough start in life. He attention
oh university, but doesn't graduate. He starts. Travelling around the world, but it gets into a lot of trouble. a start using cocaine and heroin. These obviously not going to be running any companies or becoming stakeholder in any of them is rested multiple times for marijuana. Now again, the whole clause or option was when they complete higher education or turned twenty one. They have to work at empire for two years to by five percent. Well empire doesn't even exist by the time they would have completed. One These two things much less I'll, just leave this with carry winter. Has he shown any initiative that he would have done these things, these brother, Dana, basically lives a similar life to carry their brother Jeffrey The oldest child
he has some mental health issues, so he has lots of treatment tim. Their other brother became a chef. He was doing fine out of the four them TIM is doing the best, but its carry seems to be. Shall we say the focus of bury sherman down the road and, let me just stay roquat tim is a chef. He success aw he's making his own money for the most part, TIM didn't seem to want a piece of this pie. Tim wasn't A victim carry on the other hand, he thinks he's been given about had shaken life, so therefore he is entitled to things and that's why we're gonna focus on him his parents did die when he was young and that has to be pretty rough o. Absolutely I'm not trying blame or anything, but he made a lot of bad
ices. Meanwhile, you have the other siblings. Every sibling in every family comes out differently, regardless of the setbacks that they were handed In nineteen eighty eight, when one of the brothers Dana winter ends meeting a man named stand garden garden had been a friend of beverly winters. She said I dont know how much longer I have the live. Will you keep an eye out for my boys, and he said well, he had lost touch. He said he wanted to talk to him about what had happened with the business he contacted sherman. The thing here is that Dana and carry had a bad shake, maybe or their lives you weren't going very well and so he's like look beverly wanted her boys taken care of. What can you do? He called bury up Dana gets to meet berry.
I think it's just the following week bury said he had no idea what was going on with these kids go see another row it is, but he's not in constant contact with as his family. I dont know what some of my Hasn't are doing. I wish I did. I want to be more in contact with them, but berries, running companies no yeah he's aiming highs, not looking around to see what's going on around him, but very does the right thing right: the eye because he reaches out, he says I want to help these boys and so turns out. He'll have to help Jeffrey marion Dana, if he so chooses, because they need financial help they need support. So he said you know, I really respected their father I'll help them out tim and carry say very wanted to make them depend on him and its because they have a different point of view here. They look at it as oh. He wants to help us, but it feels like there
strings attached somehow yet bury from his point of view is probably thinking they need some help. I respected their father, their family. I will provide him with money. Help them start. Businesses are provided with cars, he really steps up to the plate, but If you know how it is any time someone gives you a bunch of stuff. Maybe there are strings attached and qualifiers to it all, and that's probably true, but Barry didn't have to offer, and he did at least carry accepts this, and he will end up launching his own construction company. His brother Jeff, we'll get into custom, cds and Dana starts a jewellery business, very bought them all homes. He
their credit card bills and gave them an allowance. They all become very successful. Dana nicknames bury banks, common cause and that behind his back sounds like as doesn't mind the strings attached, but tina is on drugs very will actually fund him to go to a remote fishing village in british columbia, so he can detox it clean. This turns Dana's life around and he settled down and marries his wife. They have to children and any sets a slip back into drugs and he'll. Later beach, large with conspiracy, to commit murder of a drug dealer and from vancouver he calls bury to arrange bail. You will end up dying
of a heroine overdose at age. Thirty, three, it's rough life is a sad life. This doesn't help berries relationship with the other, siblings or the other cousins because they are blaming, bury for a lot of their woes. Yet they're asking him for help. So it's weird dynamic, sure to check out where the crowded sing in theatres July, fifteenth based on the best selling, book, comes a juicy mystery full of romance murder and deadly secrets. Daisy Agur Jones plays kyar an outsider, who grew up alone in the marshes of north. Carolina she finds herself drawn the two men from town. It opens a whole new world possibilities until one of them turns up dead blamed for the murder, the town once answers, but will the truth set kyar free or condemn her forever, produced by reese witherspoon featuring a new.
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The lawsuit against royal trust for five hundred million dollars, because the company didn't protect their interests again, that was their fathers company it got. Soul what's going on here, they wondered more about the sales, they could see exactly what may be they had coming to them rightfully so the royal trust said that the claims should be dismissed. As they said. Hey we didn't do anything and proper bo. There was nothing in the contract or the options that stated very couldn't sell the company that wasn't in raw. eating, so there feeling wrong there feeling slighted! I get it because they had What I guess somebody would call an inheritance that they weren't able to cash in on this stuff is tricky. I can understand why the winters feel a we should have the coming to us, but we didn't so. We ve been screwed over the court. Look at it and said
berry, didn't do anything wrong. Here I mean maybe he should have floated them, something free the sale because it was their fathers company, but I think the way bury looked at it, and this is backed up. by his comments now he said hey this company would have collapsed It was already losing sales when I took it over and I at around me and my partner, MR allister. If and for us that company would be worth anything anyway and should have held onto the company for whatever six to eight years until the kids were eighteen or even longer, until their twenty one just to give them this option. I might become an off a little cold here, but I really don't understand what he did wrong. He should have floated them. Some money from the company sale I wasn't in the contract. So again he didn't do anything wrong. Yet then he bankrolls these children gives them ten,
if not hundreds of thousands of dollars helps them immensely. Yes in every way, and it's not good enough. Oh yeah, I mean they each step businesses stage got homes all kinds of things they benefited from, but I thought all this is doing is creating a rift, but it's also just poking the bear their pissing bury off very probably feels like hey. I did enough for you, kids and I come after me. Tim carry and Julia file lawsuit against very sherman and his former partners. for one billion dollars they come up with this figure for a lot of things is a whole document on that, but just gonna say their suing em for one billion sherman
turned down any offers to settle an retaliated by suing carry for eight million dollars in outstanding loans and took Juliet a court in vancouver too clarify the terms of his mortgage on Julia's house in order to immediately collect his money without waiting for the house to sell. So essentially all these things that he had air quotes gifted them. He is now, calling it in saying those raw loans or, if you like it, and I want all my money back now. In august, two thousand and seven, the court heard the claims against carry the judge ruled how, Erin well ruled forbearing sherman, saying he didn't do anything wrong: we're looking at the contract, we're looking at all these business dealings, we're looking at you
lives and what was going on there carry has to give up a cottage and his home and to business properties via you said he hoped the bear he had for properties. He was given hunter of thousands of dollars in just whatever either money or business opportunities? He bites the hand that feeds him, while very bit back. Very one not only did very win, but then he turns around any sues them for court costs. Any sues them to give back everything he's given them in its to the tune of eight million dollars in very wins. I can say that I disagree with the way the court's found here.
And again I'm not trying to come off cold, but what was berry doing that was illegal, whereas not so much what's illegal, it's that was lewis. Winters, kids and you didn't look out for him. He basically did and then Carrie went we had a meeting with a lawyer, as lawyer, says You need to settle down now. You played your hand. It didn't work out in your favor time to just let everything settle, cool down carries like screw that I'm going to the press- and he starts talking, says blasting em in the press again is not happy with the outcome here. Long story short carry fires as lawyers as well he's a happy with them for one he lost right. That's not good and then his lawyers are telling him to back off he's not with bury yet not by a long shot and doesn't like his lawyer, tellingham stop so you're saying don't do this?
like now, I'm gonna, do it he's step over the line of libel and slander now and he could get sued again by berry, Yeah carians up giving an interview where he says: if bury had his way, I beating cold french fries out of a dumpster kfc. I mean, if very, had his way berry. gave this guy. How much money he's feeling cited in angry in? Oh, it's always the strings attached with every dollar. Then don't take the dollar. She did. There's an entitlement here, that's coming from carry winter that it so evident. and, as we continue on we'll see, this matters. During this same interview about being in a K, a sea dumpster. He expresses fear for his personal safety and says,
that very has even asked him to kill his wife honey, which is weird because he hates berry as that, I'm going to be berries nemesis. Yet there somehow close enough where berries I hit out on his wife and asking carry to take his wife out. It seems a little shaky there in twenty seventeen There is a lawsuit course between sherman and carry winter on December. Sixth, twenty seventeen, a judge throughout winters claim. So that's why said sherman and acted properly winter. Is not happy with us, so you would think it said but it's not really settled because we know how angry carry is it's on the night of December thirteen twenty seventeen
that carry say he's home, watching picky blinders on netflix. I've ever seen that show just watch the first episode and it wasn't I dislike. Did I just never got past. that I've never seen it He also says that he went to a cocaine, anonymous meeting. He said he went there, wednesday. He claimed that he worked the next day. This is weren't, because on that night it is believed that that is when berry and honey sherman were murdered. What do we know about the discovery of their bodies, wednesday december thirteenth? Twenty seventeen honey was at the apple ex headquarters and she was having a discussion about building their new house. Their current house was being put up for sale. She would leave before bury they would both work late,
This was just routine of her working that night. There are descriptions of her needing to be at a meeting the next day and her not showing up. So when thursday December fourteenth comes around she's, not seen somebody emailed her and asked. Are you gonna be at this meeting or something I guess she replied and said? I have some things that came up no one hears from her after that This is. Why gets weird because their home, which is located at fifty old colony road, I used to live at fifty old colony way by the way, that's kind of weird to me. Their real estate agent goes to show some perspective buyers, the home that friday December fifteenth before the real turkey,
Garden there they have like a house cleaner and I think, a landscaper that are at the house, but this house's jain norm s. Ok, it's huge down in the basement, which basement. I mean the lower levels of the home, there's an indoor pool, so the real ter and the buyers are going down. The stairs real ter opens the door to the pool area walks in seas to body. by the pool it immediately turns around stops everybody else from entering that area and says this area is off limits. She doesn't say: there's dead bodies in their there's been a murder. She just says this area is off limits and closes the door behind her quickly, she's a her to the end ass. She doesn't want to box the sale or, I guess, get a lower
king price- I don't know she dresses in this mode of I have to save this city. patient and not freak these people out he's trying to show this home to these buyers, they had their own real estate agent with them. There's no way. he would ever want them going into an area where there are two dead people. Yes, that's not good, obviously call, the emergency number police are despatched. The call goes out at eleven forty four, a m, friday morning. No one seen them since Wednesday night right, oh, the idea would be some time between Wednesday night and thursday burying sherman were murdered, they position at the poor, so there were somewhat seated position. hanging from a low rail metal rail they had. Men's leather belt around their necks now were holding them up. Their arms were drawn back and held in place by winter coats. So essentially put
a winner coat, let's say: you're halfway, putting it on her half way, taking it off. That's that in between place, where it's almost restrictive to you, I, like your kind of your arms are bound behind your back, obviously, they've been strangled or ex fixated by these belts or by some sort of ligature. The initial investigators on the scene said it looked like a murder, suicide, I tried to find the percentages of murder suicides that go down like this most time. It's you shoot the other person than you shoot yourself. Or you kill the other person. Then you shoot yourself but hanging yeah. I could be wrong, but I think trouble with this scene is. Is I don't think that, typically, if it is a murder, suicide that the person who committed the murder would then kill themselves right next, the other person in the same manner- and this is by ligature. So why would someone do that? Why would
He hang his wife and the hang himself right next to her. In the same with the arms by the back and everything it just. It looks too much like someone else. Did this the woman that was in charge of this investigation. Her name was detective sergeant, Susan gomes. She said that from the beginning they had three theories and she said they don't just pick one and run with it. No, they gather evidence and see what fits best. So in her mind. Never did they say well, it looks like this. So with its probably what happened now it's here is some possibilities: let's start gathering evidence and for them she said they spent six weeks in that home to gather evidence, because it's a huge property yeah, it's thousands of square feet in her statement. It just a sticking point for me
said that there were no signs of breakin or forced entry, which this is her statement to the press. I would just assume you'd hold that information, I took, as you were, I exile of this was a homicide and there are perpetrators on the loose. Why not make him sweat? Why would you give them their simple? nation but they're trying to be transparent with public. I get that well, it's funny because they don't seem d. Transparent. They say I don't how many times that they dont want to discuss what they found in the home in terms of evidence, Obviously they were autopsies performed on berry and honey. Cause of death was ligature net compression, although manner of death was undetermined. I think it's just
their covering their bases, and they know it's not poisoning. They know it's not gunshot, but its were they strangled. Do you know where they choked out it's just semantics at that point, I think would be very hard for bury two of murdered his wife and then put himself in this position with the coat there's been numerous autopsies and investigation, and they say that they believe that there could have been marks on the wrists as if they were bound at one point, I know that we ve seen people hang themselves and bind their own hands, but the system is to be a very odd way if you were to kill yourself, but they didn't find those bindings. No. Now there is evidence that their hands may have been bound. It suggestive of that that those binding They were. They are gone so once again that goes back to homicide. This case ends up being ellison.
law enforcement mines, its homicide, homicide, They were murdered, targeted someone and murdered the children of burying honey, Sherman they're, not very happy with the investor. nation now. Obviously, the investigation goes on for a while, but doesn't seem to really go anywhere and they dont have any suspects alleys publicly. They start investigating this case with the help of an attorney and Of course. This attorney is criminal defence lawyer brand greenspan. He higher a retired toronto police detective. and they also bring in a retired chief forensic pathologist, and they start looking through the home and they start trying to put together this case on their own. So literally there are competing in. Allegations into the murders of barry and honey sherman, and I want to say if one of his kids had something to do with this and I'm not saying they did, but if they did, why would they
investigated so from the start? It looks like their children are very, very learned about what happened and they want the truth to be found there. want to know what happened here, we have the police, the investigation, taking weeks just to clear the house before they give it back to the germans family. I can understand why they don't think that it's happening fast enough. There not processing this fast enough. Detective sergeant Susan gums. She says it's property and they take their time they're not in a rush, they just want to make sure if there is any evidence that they find it she's not willing to discuss what they find, but she made sure the public knows there taking it seriously. They say the
crime scene was suspiciously clean, suggesting a professional hit. The had multiple entrances into this house mean its huge. They say that there was a walk box outside, obviously because realtors were showing the home. So if anyone had access to that lock box, they could have gotten access to the house and not had to force entry, but if honey got home first, they could of got into her and just gone into the house with her, but used her to gain access, whether beat a follower in or put a gun to your head and make her go in but by they you mean this is what the sermons investigative team is finding. This is what their reporting, and also they had an elaborate security system of the house, now turned off and you don't even have the cameras rolling. You can have all the security wall
But when you leave the front gate, openness offer nothin so as part of the sermons, investigation, Brian Greenspan and his team, and sharing, but they found they found a series of twenty five palmprints or fingerprints that they say the police missed. They already had a problem with official investigation and now It's just getting more soured desert there a happy that apparently there are some more prince that they missed, and one of these might actually leads the killer for all. They know. They also claim that the police had not checked the locks for tampering and that the carpets weren't vacuum to collect forensic evidence when you're part of the negation team. I'm sure there's people are like this is just my ninety five job. I d show up for work. I do my thing I go home and when you hire investigative team, that is very passionate about figuring this.
try out, probably going to spend a little bit more time on it. I'm not trying to bash the investigators from the law enforcement on here, but I can understand the point of view from the family in their team It's a shoddy investigation. These people are lazy and then they're going public with it. no one's getting along now, and this is all going to contribute to slowing down the investigation- and I dont even know whose right here you have, he's competing investigations going on, obviously pronto is trying to take care of business. they do it and then the sermons investigators are just trying to make them happy. I dont know where the truth lies in there, but I do think its interest that when the press was talking to the police, they were really seeming to focus on the real ter, lock box. It was near the front door, it had a key in it This there's no security system running. So, if you
access that large box or could get into it. Somehow you can get a key just in they don't really need to give the lock box, though right the police say they ve checked everybody, whoever had access to it and kind of vetted them or whatever, but couldn't summer waited for honey to get home. She got home first from what we understand most likely right. Yeah! That's the whole point, I guess is the lock box would have a paper trail to and the police followed that trail. But you don't need the lock box. You could have gotten access from honey. In october, twenty eighteen, their lawyer, Brian Greenspan offered ten million dollar reward for any information leading to the arrest or conviction of the murders. He also added that the information gathered would be passed on to the toronto police, give it to us first and then will give it to the police in ten million dollars. So
like a lot of money, but it's chump change in this family course. The police say that This is going to interfere in their investigation because they're not gonna, be the point of evidence. Collecting it's gonna be pass through this other third party, again They want to solve this crime, but now they have to partner up with greenspan's team, and I guess it's there first canadian public private partnership between two investigative parties. This is you can say it's a third party: it's not the toronto police, but On the other hand, Greenspan is brought in some very well respected people. From that point you. They should know how to handle this information and what needs to be passed on, so they can look at it, but they can pass it on to the police. But you also wonder if this means the toronto police will say: well, they sort of rested there. From her hands. What do we do now right? there's. This idea out there that possibly the toronto please
Some sort of put this on the back burner, as the germans have their experts working on it. They have asked the public to send them the tipps. It's almost. like it's been taken other hands, but they have admitted that right. No, no, they haven't. They can't admit that a private third party is running the show, because that might we too distrust or loss of respect from the public if their shown that they can do their jobs. There's a lot of discrepancy. between what greenspan's private team says and the toronto police. The police say that they had collected evidence. They had vacuumed thee, carpets and what not to the whole. This is a professional hit because there was no evidence left. Anyone can walk into a house and kill somebody there doesn't dictate if it was a professional hit. It doesnt dictated
This was somebody a murder for higher per se. People can get lucky and does not leave any evidence, most of you know: I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers an incredible selection, audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities down experts and, as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audio books, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership, I get one title a month to keep and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book, anti social about online extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation
audible hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days, does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP were text gaeta, BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try, audible, free for thirty days, audible, dot, com flash judah beauty, Greenspan's team vacuum, the carpets. They say they collected evidence in the carpets, but where do they go from there? They can offer to the police right They could buy, it doesn't seem like there's a cooperation here. It seems like well, you guys you're doing this thing and that's how they leave it. The police May not have quit investigating, because its known that there have been three Seven search warrants authorized as of october, two thousand eighteen in relation to this case, so maybe they're still working on it just seems to be kind of a secret deal, and I dont know if that
because they've been kind of secretive all along or if it's, because maybe they aren't doing as much but I wouldn't want to say what toronto is doing in this regard. I just don't know enough. I do think it's your saying that this private, aim has seemingly taken over the investigation, at least from the public's point of view. In june of twenty eighteen justice, dumpy ruled that ceiling very sherman estate documents and thereby keeping it from the public was necessary, he's trying to protect the sherman children as he puts it, but in ontario court of appeal ruling, which was really instigated by
duranno star, reporter Kevin Donovan, resulted in all estate documents being unsealed on may eighteen, twenty nineteen included in these documents, its reported that honey sermons will was missing and she had not given it to anyone for safe keeping the police never found it. To say that she didn't have a well I'm sure at that level of success, and variety and what not she's going to have one, but maybe she has a safety deposit box somewhere. How do you know? Why idea here. Is that may be whoever committed the murders took her well with them again, the police didn't come out and say: here's was missing, here's what we found. They said we're not to discuss what we found in the house, that's it. I would just assume that if somebody did come forward with her will- and it wasn't- oh- I just found
in a drawer, and I happen to be a relative- that's going to implicate them as the murderer, so the will doesn't help anyone exact I don't see how they find it, at least not because anyone willingly brought it forward, and at this point I don't expect them to find it. Do you know I don't people would ask us to cover recent cases here. We are right march, two thousand and nineteen. It's reported that security camera footage is obtained by the toronto police, and it shows an unidentified man go in and out of the sherman's home three times while they were dead in the basement. So this is at that point. The police had not looked at this footage for six weeks again. I can understand why the family doesn't think this is going well. The end on the video was too grainy to identify the man and the license plate was not discernible. The footage
is brought in by a neighbour whose security camera happened be pointed at the house, and a detailed account of the footage was made available by the toronto star: now. Is there anything to be learned about this man that went in and out of the house during the time of the alleged murder, vs ie, into police, have stated that they located this person They know why this person was at the home. They don't really much else, except to indicate that you should just trust them This is not related to the murders. That's a hard pill to swallow, house cleaner and landscaper that were at the home before the real showed up, and they never went downstairs- I think of it. Benet ramsey case where they go through the house and they don't find Jon benet. It's a huge house. This house is bigger way, more square footage and, if you're not going to the pool area,
because you're not gonna go first, when the what your reasoning to go down there, if this guy, what some kind of contractor somebody that was doing work on the house to get ready for sale. Maybe you know, went down to the pool area. It's a possibility, but worse postage is except the police's work. On this, and I don't see any reason why we wouldn't one reason why they may not want to release the identity of the man who was seen going in out of the house. They know he is a suspect. And they don't want him being mobbed. Maybe he came forward them in it part of that it was like hey. Please don't give my identity out. I dont want the ass meant, because you know the internet is they get a hold of this of information as like disguise the killer, and then the rags are now I think pictures of the guy saying the murder of the shermans is still on the loose, or we see that in the podcasting world you can just say the wrong thing and you'll get torn to shreds so yeah. I understand why this guy would want his identity to be kept secret. We're off the record. We go
this an we spent a good deal of time. Talking about the winter children. Look we could go through all of the people who didn't like very short, Despite his success, he rubbed people wrong way, there's Nothing that we can say about that, except to say that some, My him is going to end up taking a lot of people off. He goes by the book. He did a lot for those winter kids. They have no real bones to pick with him in his mind, will do a lot for them and then they can all over him and tried to take his money away from him tried to demean the amount of work he put in to make the camp need that their dad had started a success by blood between family members. Here she don't get to the top without stepping on a few people, but in berries case. His attitude in his go get it. guess agassiz. Why He made a lot of enemies and when it comes to a list of people out of liked to have seen him in his wife dad
I guess you could say, will look at all the lawsuits he had with all these other pharmaceutical companies, but that's business. There's no personal vendetta! There! Nobody cares about knocking somebody off like apple and sam song or whoever. You know, go listened a corporate wars, there's a hundred different things out there and no one's pudding hits on other companies we are used to play shadow run and cyber punk. When I was a kid I mean that's kind of a fantasy world, but this is good old fashion, revenge. Who did this? It was personal, and I
dont, really put that much stock into. Oh, this is a personal attack or this is a professional or whatever, but this looks like revenge all over it. So I don't think that you can go through the list of lawsuits with other companies and place those names of suspects when it comes to the family when it comes to carry winter. That's a whole different ball game. Now he, through his own name into the ring that hey, I dont, have a good alibi. I have very good motive. I the berry and I really hated honey, and yet he sang- I didn't do it. We know because he was talking to the reporter saying these things and we're supposed to just say: okay, you didn't do it now, I'm not saying he did it, but I'm saying if we're going to start coming up with theories much like the police had their early theories. I think the early theory here is that they should be
looking and carry winter. He felt slighted. He felt like his father's company was torn away from him that he should have had shares in it. He said had success with it. In very short, stole it from him and he hated bury insert the whole kfc thing he sang I would love, to have been the guy to kill, Barry sherman. He even talks about he had a fantasy of beheading him. It feels like he's. Writing the o J simpson. If I did it book before, he has even put on trial right. That's exactly the! If your family member somebody gets murdered in you hated their gets, it might best serve you to just keep your mouth shut about it, because this guy's gonna put himself in the crosshairs and if he did, do it. Well, then, I see a wrongful conviction coming in its his own. Damn fault. I hate to be harsh, but you don't say I Did this man and I don't have a good alibi,
No, he didn't just say that he said I hated him. I wanted him dead, yeah, he goes on to talk about the hits on berries, wife and how very wanted him to kill honey, which yeah he said that bury wanted him to whack his wife and then at some point carriers that he had everything set up. Many goes once I pushed this button. We can't call it back. It will go through that's when you it is very sad nope I've changed my mind. You can't do this with that statement. What if carry had gone there and killed honey and then very came home an hour later or so and said what have you done in, want this and then carry or whoever says well now, you're a liability. I have to take you out they. The only trouble is that supposedly this happened well before then, because by this time, berry and carry we're not getting along at all, so that discredits alot of carry statements.
This point. Oh he discredit himself. I a he. He ended up. You know in credit to the toronto star everything, but these interviews with care He really brought out a lot of issues with his statements in his claims. It's difficult to trust, carry and even took a polygraph. The polygraph didn't work out for me there. It showed high emotion which, when he talked about they, he asked is that ok and he was sold. No that's bad at the red flag for deception. I mean come on, maybe it's just because wherein the true crime genre, but are you an amateur dude? I just I don't recall such a high profile
a case when someone who makes a very good suspect literally put themselves in the crosshairs and says: oh I'm, the perfect guy to have committed a crime, but it wasn't me again. We always say they're not doing themselves any favours. I think I would have considered him a suspect just because of the bad blood and the family. I would have considered a necessity. just because of the history and the lawsuits. I really consider him a suspect because of his own statements. He puts himself there and think about this, so he says that toronto police has said that he's not a suspect. What is he not? He does not an alibi by his own admission, the toronto believe Have not named any suspects, I don't think they should. but they are definitely have a list, a short list of names, I'd better dollar. Somebody is on that list
just then there are other people again that were set basel ii, possible, suspect business associates, you name it, but I really feel like carry is the only person were talking about any decent attorney? What is said please shot up, they ve already told him shut up many times he fired them yeah and what I'm saying is he continues to talk in ways that just keep shy a spotlight on him, and then the public is saying this guy's. all but saying he did it and there's nothing happening. So it goes back to what are the police doing now I mean it feels like Robert durst. It feels like oj samson he's behaving in such a
add manner. We could go into the other investments. He had there's all whole litany of people out there, but if winter didn't do this, then he's pulling attention away from valid suspects and he's hurting the investigation. The only remaining other question than I have is honey showed some signs of being beaten, whereas her husband bury did not possibly she was the first one home. If she was beaten some attacked so that look gain access the home, but I wonder o bury because Berry seems to be the kind of guy who would probably even with gun to head. Tell someone screw you I won't comply. They might have both been that way, but because she was beaten that led to the whole idea of murder suicide, because
He didn't have any marks on him, but he probably loved honey. Very much. I don't think he wanted her dead, so maybe they had held her in front of so when he got home he would comply and that's why he didn't fight. I think some people won't ever believed that, and I'm not saying you're wrong bury, may have loved his wife there- was this whole contention about how he wouldn't give her money. If she was going Spanned say a thousand hours or more. She had to go to bed. we often say here's what I want to do, even if it was true whatever it was. He would have to approve some of hers have later said that now, the time of the murders that berry decided he was going to give her a lump sum of money and I think it was in excess of three. million dollars he had. Never just in her a lump sum again. If it was five hundred bucks, you
go buy whatever, but this was berries money, yet you think about it. In psych they're married couple, they ve been together since the seventies, and she was therefore all of his success. It should be their money should be, but he was very specific, very controlling and this is what rub: people wrong way. You wonder: did he loved his wife, maybe had we re showing it, and maybe he was coming around me. he was thinking. It's time you gave her money, because, as we know, the investigation seems to indicate that he d not murder his wife. What's the truth here, maybe just like everyone else. You have your problems, but you work through them I think that his personality was more complex than most people would think he was
worth hundreds of millions, if not a billion dollars, but he drove in old mustang. He wore ratty clothes unpressed shirts, yet he lived in it huge house, they were selling their huge house with a pool in the basement in building a new house that was city blocks and size. They were clearing out earthen forests to make room for their new property. I wonder if that new house was honeys idea, not head. I wonder if he just didn't care anymore. I mean they're both in their seventies. Why not spend money when I give her a lump sum throughout the tail end of their life, then that's a good point about the home. You could see that being honeys I would like a new home. It didn't seem like she bothered him a lot for money, at least not for personal reasons. I mean it seem like most the money that she a regard for him was for charity, so they were
a bigger nicer home. I don't know why it is their other houses huge, but it's all perception relative to the, where you're out on that pecking order. Maybe that was going to be her dream home. Exactly that's. Why give credence to? Maybe he did love his wife and they used her as leverage to get him to comply right, because he hadn't been hit the way she would is. There are all kinds of allegations and suspects from other corporations to sod agents. Doing hit I'm not really sure I understand the messiah angle. I guess it's because honey and bury our jewish, but this agents usually are fighting for jewish people not doing hits on jewish people, so that doesn't make any sense to me. What's
ever yet as a whole litany of suspects in this case and weird theories and rattled go down, I'm surprised that they weren't able to investigate and closed this case quickly. I would just assume that they would have put pressure on certain visuals, gotten more progress in this case. That's why we're talking about it is because it is unsolved, is unresolved The police have indicated that they have an idea of what happened here, but they're, not one The sharing that- and I wonder if its due to the fact that may be whoever did this- they suspect that person, but they don't have enough evidence. You can have motive. You can have opportunity but what, if they just have nothing else and they're afraid and move forward because they might just have
one shot. That's it maybe they're waiting, hoping, though get another breakin. The case they want that air tight conviction, they don't wanna, take someone to trial and then lose if you think about it, where'd he brought up. Carry before is making a good suspect in his case, he's not afraid of litigation. and so maybe they're just being careful, because they want to make sure that if they do go after someone if it's carrier, someone else that they feel it they have enough when they move forward with the trial. I hope that the case, because justice delayed is justice, denied
It feels like we're living in the golden age of scammers from Anna del v to the tinder swindler. These stories are almost impossible to believe, but they're amateurs next to Zubair sickly from one dirty and pineapple street studios comes the new true crime, podcast persona, the french deception, the untold story of one of the greatest criminals of the twenty first century, a man who conned the world's most powerful billionaires corporations and even religious leaders out of hundreds of millions of dollars. They all thought they were smart enough to spot a con, but they had no idea who they are dealing with. Do you hear the full story? Follow persona the french deception wherever you get your pike ass or you can listen early on amazon, music for early and ad free by subscribing to wondering, plus it apple pod gas, for the wonder, YAP.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.