« The Generation Why Podcast

Ben Smart & Olivia Hope - 275

January 01, 1998. Marlborough Sounds, New Zealand. Two friends celebrating New Year's Eve ran into trouble after the boat they had planned to get on was overcrowded. They located a water taxi still operating and got in. Sharing the ride was a man who learned that they had nowhere to sleep and offered to let them stay on his boat. As this was their only real option they accepted and the taxi took them to the man's ketch. The two friends, Olivia Hope and Ben Smart, were never seen again. The police conducted an investigation and despite a number of witnesses describing the same man and the same two masted sailing boat, they focused on a man with a smaller vessel named Scott Watson. Where this true crime case went from there has been a source of controversy ever since...  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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answer crime scenes. We ve seen them all right, washed up on the shore, sticking out a shallow graves buried under the house and stuck in the bottom of a lake, but sometime there's a little more off the beaten path. That makes you sit when your couch and shouted your tv wait. They found the body where, but that's what you're looking for. We got you ready stream some crime stories hulu, it's a crime not to watch
What are you doing tonight tonight? It's the afternoon suggested that I know where recording at an odd time. They don't know that they do now I'm doing fine just and how are you doing great? We all see everybody and allay next week, that'll be fun for the meat up. All oh, I didn't have the details readily available, but will be
pattern: love podcast convention in new orleans august tents through the twelfth so check that out and crime can come up to use, code, jan. Why? When you by your tickets, gale save a little on your tickets and you'll. Let crime can know that you love generation. Why exactly? Most of you probably have heard of Michel mcnamara by now, I will call her a voice in the true crime feel, even though she was more on the writing side. The blogging sighed she was married to patton oswald and unfortunately she passed away not too long ago? her passion, though, seem to be solved. cases and The case that was foremost on her mind, was the iran's case or golden stew, killer. She, why it to solve this case and in her class. She was writing her book, even though she died and she didn't have a chance to finish, it was finished by
other people, but its titled I'll be gone in the dark and if you haven't gotten it yet and you're a reader unity at this book, everyone I've heard from I haven't read it all yet myself, but everyone. I heard from and from what I know of it, even stephen king said this is a fantastic book and is definitely a crime that we all want solved, This is one more push. One were hurt to help solve the case. What do you think, doesn't you think they'll bill solve this one? I hope not too much time has passed. I feel that there's a lot information- a lot of things that they could go back and revisit, but if this guy this perpetrators dad gone it me get an answer like learn more. I know we ve covered this case in the past. We titled it original night stalker, so definite check that out and get Michel mcnamara's book
It also has an introduction from one of my favorite authors, gillian flynn, so I'll definitely, checking it out so with all that out of the way. What are we talking about tonight, air this was a difficult episode, title and It's because there are really three people involved, then smart, a hope, and scott watson, ben and a hope? They were friends. They were celebrating new year's eve in the Marlborough sounds it for knowledge into the morning of january. First, ninety ninety eight they disappeared the case begins to centre on a man by the name of scott watson, who didn't have the best reputation and who many believed owned a boat that the couple were dropped off at about four in the morning, And so our discussion will be about who people were the other. The geisha the trial and
trying to figure out exactly what happened to benchmark in and hope there are a lot of avenues and radicals you can go to But this case will try to break down the we can on the points that we find important. If there was a clear, of guilt. I dont think we'd be covering it. Nobody would be talking about it. To this day, public debate would not the raging on the internet, so we I like to hear feedback from our food hands, but this key this is the Stephen avery of new zealand, it is the Wes, memphis three, it is the large, sk case. Out of that out of that country in the very early morning, hours of new year's day. Ninety ninety eight to france, spend smart and olivia hope boarded the of a man they had just met in order to stay the night. Now they to this boat
the man by the name of guy wallace. He was our water taxi guy. That was transporting. Go back and forth from the mainland to their boats and two other boats, because its needs eve and there's a big party going on They were never seen again after this, so the best places to start is to talk about who they were bolivia, hope was seventeen years old in ninety ninety eight, parents were gerald and janis gerald work a chief executive of the moral research centre and was involved in politics. Oliver had a role that of target university where her sister was enrolled. She was working at the cairo river wines in blenheim were her mother. Also worked at o tie a university. She was going to work towards several interests which included politics law in music. She play the piano quite well. When I understand her,
Their janis said that on December thirtieth, Libya had arranged with her to leave work early so that she can get ready for a boat trip. She was taking with her sister Amelia and france in the marlborough sounds and then Bolivia, was supposed to return back to work on january second and x, did that she would be home even before that Ben smart parents were john and mary smart from Blenheim Ben's father was a civil engineer and was going to join his firm january, Ben was a musician playing indifferent bands and he loved playing guitar seem too one with him everywhere. He went got watson his past is a little bit more chequered. A teenager, he had forty eight convictions for differ things ranging from possession of a deadly weapon assault. Marijuana charges, drug charges, fighting just all round great teenage,
he did serve to short sentences behind bars. Thou is back in eighty nine. Ninety one more into his character. As we talk, the night of, but family loves him very much. He didn't have a lot of friends brother. He had a sister. dad and he now for lack of a better term, didn't play with others December we at made ninety seven a drove from her parents, house anger of town Marlborough to what, among a bay in queen charlotte, sound, her sister Amelia was there. She bore, a charter yacht named the tamarack, along with their friends the next day, the tamarack picked up more people and picton and then travel to endeavour bay, lives. friends went ashore to furnish lodge to celebrate the new year and while she was there, she met up with her friend ben, smart ben
had been staying nearby in ponca cove. So this is a big what to do theirs, hundreds of borders and thousands of people that descend upon this code this bay area and just type boats together anchor up and party all day long now, because there are so many people partying out there. What you do is you painted bats. You need to have a place to stay. You need to have your travel arrangements set up because it can get crazy. Now this all of that. Olivia, had paid for space on the tamarack right, but ass, they got done. Partying there get me to go to the tamarack its full. The beds are filled Drunken passed out. People there's people per being still on the boat there's no for them to sleep and their efforts of hay. We actually to be here are
not taken seriously and its at night middle the morning you know been drinking imparting all night. All you want to do is lay down and go to sleep. and they are not able to do that. So they're going to try to find place to go to sleep, but its new year's eve and new years now, not that easy to book. hotel or find at least another party boat that my have an open bed for you, yes some time between three thirty. In four in the morning there trying to figure out where to go, what do luckily, guy wallace was operating a nigh, add or a water taxi and offered to take them at least take them somewhere right. Well, they were asking to be taken to the mainland, so they can find a hotel and their having this conversation and guide and forms of you're, not gonna, have any luck on the mainland because they ve been booked for months and
There happens to be another sego were on this water taxi, a mysterious man who says: hey I have space on my boat. You guys stay with me! Well, there's not much choice there right. There is either take their chances or There's a man, they're saying hey, I have room about so day initially say that would be great, but then the man come back and says: well, only you can come? He can And he says this to olivia only the the you blonde teenager can come on my boat, but your boyfriend can't come. That's not creepy at all. Now, that's how inviting can you be so really getting off on the wrong foot here, but they take it as a joke. They feel like? Oh, he just being serious and still agree to go on his boat with them.
guy wallace. The water taxi driver actually feels that this guy's creepy and this might be a bad idea to, but he them do whatever they want. Mother adulterate yeah, or at least ben smart is She was just seventeen, but she was. your friend benchmark and it's real up to them what they want to do so. This mystery. Man guides the mount to wear his boat is parked and at the time about a hundred yards eyes, though it's gonna take him a little bit to get there guy wallace, the taxi driver, will say. It's a larger boat and two masts and has brass portholes, ornate rope. A really nice boat and even go so far as to say that he pulls up to the side it such a large boat that it stay.
and they don't have to go to the other side of the boat to board it, and they also say that they had to step up in climb up, this is a larger seagoing vessels but, as we said before, ben smart olivia hope there never seen again now so last person to see them Guy wallace, the water taxi driver and whoever this mysterious man may have been so because as the families become concerned there, not hearing from their loved ones and especially A levy hopes family. They maintain that their daughter was always in touch that she always let them know where she was what she was doing and when she went silent whose very much out of character. So What can detectives do but go to the law person known to have interactive. Ben, smart and libya hope so detective. talk with guy Wallis who relays the information. Is he recalled it?
Justin had laid out before about dropping them off at this catch two masted sailboat. They also ask others around the bar area and other boaters about this. masted catch boat that they all seem to have seen that day and they all give a very similar description to mass so too low. sales really ornate? Portholes a blue stripe down this the boat and ornate roaming on the boat, so pretty expensive boat. I would assume having impressed him out lately. But I think that thank god range and the half million two million dollar mark Guy wallace, as was others, have described this mystery man as having been in the bar. He was smoking and drinking and The police feel like this speed suspect this is the person of interest that we need to find, and then
We can go from there maybe solve this case, figure out what happened to the living open benchmark. There's a few female at the bar that will describe, The mystery man, the guy will describe him too, with medium length dish old hair unshaven to the point of almost having a beard. Some of the women at the bar will actually say that he would make passes at them. Harass them he was really creepy. The man they describe as having been around age, twenty five to thirty medium, build about seventy kilograms with medium hair down to the collar between five eight and five ten. With this, information. They start to look for this catch because, as just described it as the witnesses described it, this should be Something that's easy to find. It doesn't exist. lee blend in by it spite a search and
having other witnesses describing it. They can't find it apparently, since the catch wasn't able to be located or at least The police never rebel to locate such about that started to take a look at a sloop. Now, sir, is a single masted, sailboat and people I have different sailboats for different reasons the way I understand it is that europe is better for operating in low wind conditions and a key she's better with stronger wins. Now, I'm sure they're sailors out there, that We have a lot more information on this. By these boats that are being looked at the sloop and then the catch. There is also a size difference. This loop was about fourteen sixteen feet shorter than the catch that was described so the catches Forty two forty five feet long and the sloop is around twenty five feet, but this loop.
is owned by a man by the name of scott watson who we spoke earlier. Scott has short hair and from a photo taken, he looks fairly groomed or clean shaven. So not the corruption of this mystery man that you'll buy all kinds of artist renditions out there on the internet, webs engine ray twelve: the police really start focusing on a sloop that they had located and it was moored near private property in it. bay around eleven, a m on new year's day. They took it in and found it had been recently repainted it had been white and red and then was later repainted blue around new year's day. So this right. There is already suspicious right there looking at this loop. They suspect that it might be the boat now, why they think a catch and asleep could be mistaken, is any
whence gas, but this is We are looking at. The only thing I can say at this point is on new year's eve, a lot, people are drinking. A lot of alcohol and who knows I mean if you drink enough, you can make mistakes right just an area, but technically these two totally different boats. You're kind of looking at the door, between a array stored. Nineteen sixty shabby and then the panel but they're they're, both spoke to me in any one that is about or knows that boats are expensive and skywalker built his own private, because and afforded by one the police, continuing to take statements from people from witnesses, it's their finding but they think might be some evidence there, not fine blood evidence, but finding hares, and they also have identified some scratches on a hatch
and so now they have. Go back to libya, hopes, family and Ben smarts families and they're going to collect samples hairs apples, raven blood samples from parents just so they have something to compare evidence to end, you can imagine at this point. The families are probably pretty worried that These two, our hope and smart, have met with I'll play the scratch marks, are on the underside of the hatch. It's the only opening leading into the inside of the sloop. I guess the birth it's. The only way in and out in the bottom of the hatch is phone. So if somebody were to sky, ouch added. It leaves those impressions, and this is gill. The idea that whoever was locked into this bow was scratching their way out which pay?
it's a very frightening picture and a lot of people have it in their heads that olivia was locked down there and that she couldn't get out. So she was scratching desperately at this hatch, but a review of this hatch reveal, is that the scratches go beyond they go to the edge of the hatch, which means there is no way that they were made When the hatch was closed, because then they wouldn't have reached the edges scott watson sister said that some to have some children actually said I doubt it Furthermore, there is no way to actually lock the hatch. Now I noticed right away that it doesn't really matter is a lock on something you. Close the hatch and sit on it, and it would be very difficult for someone to get out exactly there's ways to seal the hatch because he has to battened down when there is a big storm, he would use a rope or something like that. The scratch marks
would have been covered up or obscured if the hatch was closed and whoever scratching at it is able to get to these inaccessible play it's not exactly as you your creepy! Once you understand that take a moment, get a word from our new sponsor price line. Do you have a group chat? Were you continuously talk about summer get, but never They go anywhere well summers. Finally, here it's time to get out of the office or your house and get a change of scenery with price line you can save up to sixty percent on your favor hotels plus, find amazing deals on car rentals, an flights, and when you save money you can explore more. That means more beautiful views and experiences, and more poolside fun doesn't matter where you travel zones or out of the office. I always use price line to find the lowest rates out there, and you should do a price line every
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remove the hatch and replaced it with another one so that they could have the hat, as evidence. They took a blanket from the boat contained over four hundred hairs. It's the infamous tiger. like it, because it has a woven tiger, face on it and also we need to talk about the painting of this boat, because scott watson's boat, his sloop didn't max the description of this catch at all, so you could say: well maybe they got the size wrong, they could. I got some other details wrong because it was dark and people were drunk, so that understandable by it. How do you get a red and white boat mixed up with a white and blue boat? You really don't it the witnesses that claim they saw this boat from before or new year's to even after nine years very similar descriptions of this of this two masted catch, ted walsh, he was a charter operator. It was
nine p m before got dark. He describes Susan MC cracking at one p m december. Thirty first early afternoon. She describes it David and Nancy, mc no less. afternoon. They give descriptions at this boat Harold Saunders on new year's day. Early morning he describes theirs multiple, witness statements about this boat. I have like fifteen. More, but I'm not gonna to read through more because all of these people saw it really nice to masted kitsch with a blue striped down the side, and I leave that they actually saw this boat and even after the sloop was known to have been painted. It wasn't a blue strife, I mean it wasn't did that way at all. So it odd that it went from being white and red to part of it painted blue and what
I'm an idiot would pain, is boat blue after that's what the cops are looking for, a mean. you know a blue mustang. Just rob this. Restore in your drive and a red camaro, and then europe, painter, camaro, blue, nobody's gonna do that yeah. I just That makes sense the police were putting out information. They are hoping for the public to come forward third and for a break in the case they between fifteen hundred in two thousand people who heads It wants to make it it's a long time. its statements from each of these people and the co late that information, so that its useful in your investigation. They were also leaking information to the media when they pulled scots loop out of the out of the water. There was a whole all media circus there waiting to fill them doing it and this
supposed to be all on the download. No one was supposed to know who this aspect was, but while they were there, normally the media's there, because somebody let him know that this was about to happen with in any case, when you have a suspect that suffer becomes the center of the case and often times the victims are forgotten about and in this one then smart, a levy hope their families were out there talking to the media and reminding people dead. They we're looking for them and that they hoped to find them alive, the investigation goes on as time passes things start to look pretty grim, but it really felt they never really stopped that information on the people hey. There were Damn here, you might say they just disappeared, so we don't know that they are without foul play necessarily but good. in their past histories, their fate These knew them quite well defined that they were missing
after while it really does look like they were murdered, cops will question scott and his family members. They will inform his family that It's the primes aspect, and we know he did it. They will divide The family, members up and giving them. Different information though, even go to the neighbours of scott watson's family informing them. Oh by the way that god it was over. There he's the process backed and he probably more this this couple. They, sir, their homes and their places of work, and this is his sister. This is his parents and their doing raids on their on their workplace now there getting threatened with being terminated from their jobs and stuff because there, players or like you're, under investigation for murder. So I don't really want you working here anymore, it's
eddie aggressive police tactics that they're using against the watson family so obviously watson's family feels like the police, are trying to divide them, trying to get them to go at each other there appreciating the accusations before there is a trial other coming in in searching its home at weird hours, and then it back in search again now in any murder investigation you do this, you get a search warrant. You gotta opera pretty in your looking for anything that entire back to this case. But the family thinks that they're just being harassed, they're doing it to divide them day in form, scott sister, that She was covering for her brother and that you probably gonna end up in jail for doing this and they threatened it cartel children away doesn't it start to feel like there's something against this family right way,
that's how they they play it, and what's in family is speaking just as much as banana levies, family and talking about these, police aggressions against them. Also all of the witnesses. who saw this too mastered catch and work describing this or need beautiful ship there following up with the police and the police, are saying I don't weak. I don't you saw that boat about exists scoured everywhere. We can't find that boat and we ve looked at photographs of the event and it's not showing up in any of the photographs. Now this is the late nineties. So Everybody doesn't have their cell phones with facebook and, snapchat go into town. Would be regular cameras and has no social media so I don't know how far fetched it is that you wouldn't find the boat you're looking for any photos,
from any witnesses, but the fact that the police are telling these witnesses you'd, see what you saw. This puts a lie: people off they're, not do not joe and with this idea that they made this boat up and it doesn't exist so a lot of them feel very put off by law enforcement and they know what they saw and they're gonna well down on that now and say that law enforcement is utterly wrong and their determination that this boat didn't exist right. people who are around sailboats all the time. They know everything outside boats, and now they have the police tying them. You don't know what you're looking at I don't have one else's, but I can literally drive down the road and I can catch a car going by at a glance and usually I know them- it can sometimes the model of it just right away. Just by looking at it. Just briefly- and I imagine there a lot of people there who, as described, are being
because they're saying I saw this catch, it was really nice. So I looked at it right it really caught. I just like you'll see cargo buying. You think, oh well, that's just a ford tourists, but if you saw dodge viper go buy, you might look at it a little longer because it's kind of unique starts making. this case somewhat questionable is the police Taking the narrative and the witch says, being told you don't know what you're talking about. Meanwhile, the police are showing photographic I to people at the bar too. guy wallace, and these ups have six guys. You know how photo after their in every single one of them, has a photo of scott watson and No point do any of these witnesses pick him out. during the initial questioning it's not until they find a photo of scott who is in a half blink so as
his eyes looked like their little like he's, tired or kind of sneering at that the camera that somebody says well those eyes. Actually look right well, photos a little bit off because it's not what Scott normally looks like with his eyes wide open its him with his eyes, half closed kind of looking sleepy, which allow and up with the artist rendition of this mystery man. So at that point one of the witnesses like hey thanks came the eyes, look like him in the police force circle it and say ottawa. That you know, put your signature next to it, because you just identify them, and even people that are identifying it are like. I am not sure that's the guy, I'm just saying that those eyes or the closest but the police. This is a huge led right at all, the guy that they ve already targeted, and now they finally got somebody to say hey. That looks like him after me, multiple attempts of showing this guy
in photo lineups to all these witnesses while when you see a face over and over again might start can familiar the police are pretty certain. That's got. Watson is responsible for whatever happened to this couple and in april of ninety ninety eight they arrive scott watson for the theft of an aluminum dinghy, from there. Even though its not apparent at first, we scour that that's just to get him locked up. There are actually planning to charge him, which they do in june of nineteen. Ninety eight, they arrest him for the murders of Ben, smart and olivia hope they see his sloop blade again, so they I've got watson, they have his sloop Now there really going to work on this they're going to get him set up for trial by just, and yet they have to us Doubtless the time for the night they have to put. him there with ben and olivia. They have to show that been in olivia have
shown, backup they have disappeared, so doesn't a rocket scientist to figure out that the most we've been murdered, and this is the last person to have been seen with them so connect the dots, and then they have ever. from his sloop, that's going to prove that then, in a were on this man's boat, and he was the last person to see them alive there were over fifteen hundred people in the marlborough, sounds at the time it took them, a lot of work to try and establish timelines to figure out who We have been left to be position to be on a water taxi with bennett. libya as best The police can tell the only person who could been on that water taxi with them at the time was got watson. Scott watson, wall, safe He actually returned to his boat, the blade,
around two a m, but he's really loose with the times, because he doesn't really remember that. Well from the night, he doesn't have a watch and I can stand that because I used to wear watch to work, but I wouldn't where the watch anywhere else, because I wasn't on someone the time when I was not a work. So his his memory of the knights a little shifty, but We do know that but I did see him out but the bars and There was a altercation in the morning that he was involved with with some other guys now happened closer to three thirty so, even if he had gone back to his boat, at some point. obvious that he had returned back to the mainland into a bar by three a m. There isn't water taxis debtor. toting people around people, Have their own little dinghies their wrath? I can get rides with other people so
coming and going all the time this must have been madness to try to figure out a timeline for the police and I that sometimes the investigators and deeper, the commission, will assume thing because they're basing it on a hunter different witness testimonies going to jail correctly, and then you have Scott who's, not giving a bow sick alibi his whereabouts. So it's really messy, but let's try to go through it on what happened. That night. the trial of Scott watson takes place, about a year after his arrest, we're not go through the whole trial. We're gonna go to the evidence by just know that when he was on trial, the witnesses who gave statements the police when they were trial theirs. statements, change some again it was new year's eve. People were drinking tea.
has gone by its been over. It's been about a year and a half since whatever happen happened, and yet the prosecution is successful and they get. conviction of scott watson whom contains that they got it wrong, but we're gonna go The evidence because again, It's about establishing timelines. Even trial. The prosecution stated that the most important thing to establish in this case, since they did not have bodies they did not it. They were unable to find Ben small, and libya hope the most important aspect, The case was Who was this mystery man who was on that water taxi? Who was the person that was last seen with the couple and you can- He tell that the descriptions of the mystery. Man are not sing. hang up with Scott watson, scar watson had short hair. Scott watson was allegedly
clean shaven, whereas these descriptions and even the artist renditions you'll see pretty much what looks met head some guy with crazy wild hair and a full beard, and then you look at the europe, scott and joint noah That's not it! Meanwhile, your hearing about his boat, which is twenty the twenty five foot and read one mast it does. Sink up with the fifteen plus mrs that are talking about this to masted catch. That is ornate beauty. Full and has portholes on the side. This is causing lot of issues, at least in the public eye. on the viability of scott being the prime suspect, but they get there evidence they have the scratch marks on the inside of the hatch and they find two hairs on that tiger, blanket that are blonde
Most of the hairs that were recovered were all brown oddy a lady I was a blonde. So for them to find these two hairs is a big deal and they do their tasks on the hairs- and it comes up, as I think is like TAT eight thousand a one that it's somebody else, besides olivia, but even if These are a hairs there. Problems with the way that they were collected, the way that they were analyzed when nay, went through the blanket and the boat they just die. all the hairs they could find and a two bags into two plastic bags, and then they would dump these Bags out on a table ends, through them and slowly under my Her scope look at the harrison determine which ones would be an aura olivia. But that's a lot of minute detail to go through also they. had gone to bed in a homes and got sample
of their hair got samples from their families, and these samples around the same table. As the hairs that they ve collected from this boat, and then you find out that one of the bags of a levy, his hair, that they'd pulled from her home, had a slit in it. A cut in the back people do like this. They assume that hair a here could have fallen out of this bag mixed in or just simply, you had a mix up of will which hair came out, which bagged we know. I mean how do you label and tag a tiny little hair? It's be easy to mix. This up is He called into question this smoking gun evidence of two blonde hairs that somehow were missed for weeks when they are analyzing the hairs and people like. Oh, hey, wait. A second watson, has short brown hair Libya has long blonde hair How do you not see along blonde hair in these bags for weeks
and then all of a sudden, you find em right for trial as some problems with this year. Label every hair. But why couldn't you count them? I mean it wasn't until the third analysis by the woman that was doing this where he found those two hairs I dont get. They couldn't count them so that if they suddenly if they had started with four hundred and thirty six hair say, and now they have won, Thirty, eight! In this bag. Now you know that's really suspicious, but they did Do it that way during trial. This was something that the defence really tried to attack by saying you already look through these two bags of evidence twice and five, I hares and all of a sudden on try you find them, but then you I find that there is a cut in the bag. that's holding the evidence of a levy hope from her house. So that's a real problem I've seen it argued that a cut in about
like that doesn't guarantee the hairs would fall out, but guess what I dont care that doesn't You think me now you ve have doubt on this evidence like that. It's not fair. to err on the side of not caution here. You know over dismay say well yeah they could fallen out, but there's no If they did, you already had to pray. or goes at those two bags of evidence and no blonde hairs were found and now you're going to tell me that even with that caught you're going to go forward and say yeah found her hairs on his tiger, blanket that is for me also I saw a whole form, more people were talking about the hair. Not even being alive. Yes, there, like oh twenty, eight thousand one wall, that pretty much means that it's a forty five percent chance. I comes ever gambled before this isn't a perfect match and with the questionable bag cut just accusations of them wanting to go after scott. They had their their sky.
Goggles on from day one to nail, this guy. How high would it be to plant the evidence. How hard would it be too just say these are a match. well. They talked the analysed about that and she said that the bags would be sealed and yelling way to open them was too at them as scissors and she have to sign the evidence in and out in hers was the only signature ever found when these eggs were signed out. I she didn't have an explanation other than once in a while, you can accidently cut the inner bag. So Again, I just say this is evidence you can't really use my opinion by it may have had an effect on the jury. The defence it is doing their best to propose in the bags, and this is what they got they show that the hatch could have been, scratched by The children way before this night there's no way to time stamp the scratches, but the prosecutor
absolutely use these scratches and the photographs to give the jury a very grim picture of a team. all trying to escape a boat. The sky watson sister, who had helped clean his boat because it had a lot of salt water all over it. Said that when she gave her statements, a police, she described the incident where scratch has happened and happened in December. She said The police were made well aware of this, but They went ahead and tried to describe it as scratches that must have happened when Bolivia hope was trapped in the boat. So I mean just between the hairs and the scratches and then the question. About where there was a catchword sloop you can see why the public in new zealand has problems with this case against scott watson, absolutely
Prosecution during the case, work during closing arguments will talk about the two trip theory, and this is sky. and his defence saying he returned to his boat at around two a m, Therefore he wasn't around when, Guy wallace took Ben and olivia to this mystery man's boat at around for. I am so this as a problem, but prosecutors are like will he came back to shore because he had altercation what these guys one of them was named ali in all. He was wearing his sisters, necklace because his sister happened to be dying cancer and so oh Ali was wearing this necklace and sort of honor of his sister. gave him the necklace well scott, why
and says that he returned to his boat at around two, a m, but he's not sure about the time, and it was an. old guy wearing a hat well There wasn't an old guy wearing a hat that night. There was a couple taxi drivers that were older, but none of them were wearing hat d situation says it's inconsequential, because we now that he was on the mainland because it altercation at around three, a m with Ali and his friends and allies. Turkish was scott trying to damascus, late ali. About wearing a feminine necklace? yeah is around three and that scott watson walked into the main bar for knowledge, and according to oliver perkins, he noticed that watson locked him by himself all repugnant had been hanging out with some of his friends marked, happily millie seville amanda egged in.
And he said when Scott walked up to him. He identified himself as scott from welling ten and that, appeared to have had a number of drinks by then this is one that I guess he did. Conversation started out because scots looking at all over and thinking. That's a woman's necklace. Why you? Why are you wearing this woman's necklace? Are you a girl and, perkins responded that he was wearing it because it belonged to his sister, who had cancer and watson replied rudely yelling net shelly two years of life laughed. be dead. In two years I mean that's horrible. A friend perkins krispies men was watching this happen, and he came over after oliver, walked away and by this time, Scott watson had set down at this table with perkins friends, and he just Confronted with about it and said, do that
cool you. Why are you talking to him that way? That's that's a cistern. She's got cancer and He said that scott responded that he was right and when Oliver came back to the table he up. Guys to him, Now a man to eg, who is also at the table, had run Scott watson about to fall five in the morning, so this was just twenty thirty minutes before and She said that he was talking about inviting her onto his double masted catch which I find interesting, because he had a single masted sloop, but he too her about double master catch, oliver perks, would also say that In his conversation with Scott that's got would bring up a double masted catch. So I find this very, very strange: a man
also say that, because he was inviting her onto it, she was talking about helping him man the sails, and he let her know that he wanted a different kind of help from her some of the women at the bar will actually say that he would make passes at them harassed. them, he was really creepy. What a guy so he's he's trying to get women onto his boat for sex, that's it comes down to an the night is just and said earlier. He was there forthcoming about that being rude sexual harassing women, even groped, one woman's chest. So very, very suspicious behavior, but I'm still left wondering why is he mentioning a double masted catch to people obviously he doesn't own one and it I did actually come out to his boat. They would see that he was full of it he just had an altercation with both ali, and this other female, and then
find out that he's possibly a suspect in this terrible crime, while maybe there picking it up because they don't like him as person, so the idea he said he added to mass catch its possibility I just love wondering about it, because I haven't really see buddy debating this point about what oliver organs and amanda Ogden had said, but it They stood out to me, and maybe he actually set it to I'm, not trying to totally debunk their witness testimony there. We get support from thumb How will you ever stop here to do list from growing you? become a magician or you can do what I did and download thumbtack. It's the app the fines, local it was for all your home projects hire a plumber to fix your leaky, faucet or a handyman. To hang your curtains, you can even hire a pro to organize your messy closet. Yet there are people in your city who specialize in that. I actually just downloaded the thumbtack app and I could feel my apartment breathe, a sigh of relief, hello.
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the question about whether scott watson is truly guilty or not that persists even to this day and Trial hasn't done anything to stop that. Obviously he was convicted, but again people say, will wait a minute. There is had seen the catch was too nice. It stood out and if you, there then I'd driver guy, wallace, saying yeah drop them often to master catch. Then why is a debate here. How can you and if you were to say that was Scott watts. I mean it's the wrong boat right. They they took us loop into evidence. They never found a catch, so there? They have a problem. They have the wrong boat right. Then, if you take the floor- grab that was taken of scott watson that night for thirty. First, ninety, ninety seven, it doesn't match up with the identical that were created from witness testimony people. Saw this mysterious man drinking at the bars at for no lodge
So now we have a misidentification problem. There He further have scott watson, saying I wasn't even there, I went back my boat, the blade which is a sloop. I did not kill these people, and then you add in the hare evidence. That's really really really flimsy. No people have said there is no guarantee. Those hairs ever came out that slit in the bag, but honestly after looking through all the hairs twice and these hairs are dark and then they're looking for blonde hairs in an age happened a final and the third time in a verify. There's a slit in the bag from the scissors come on and then there's one more thing that we didn't mention about that. Is they weren't even really looking for bends hairs and I wonder why I actually thought about When I was reading- and I was like well Libya, it's more sympathetic to a jury? A young female being murdered. Yeah. You're gonna attached to that of a little.
more emotionally, whereas some guy getting murdered. While no one cares it's kind of a crappy thing, but things the prosecutor. Investigators will do as they will leverage emotion. Against these aspects in this way. that's definitely possible. I wouldn't put it pass them, but on the other hand, ben smart and scott watson, perhaps their hair color, just to similar, and it would make that identification were difficult remit The only way you can dna test hair is if it has the rude attached and I don't know- maybe they just Didn'T- have any routes to check on these, so they don't I hair evidence right that info tiger blanket, how useful is that we talked about painting of the boat. Why would a person suspected of murder paint their boat same color as another boat and then beyond that way boats are so dissimilar because ones sloop in one's a catch and one had a stripe in one just has part of it. Painted blue now, they're they're just really is anything there
officers really I that the boat was wiped down, cleaned thoroughly as if to cover up a murderer, but its bow and you get salt water everywhere, it's corrosive, you have to clean, about you after upkeep it. So is it really that odd that he wiped everything down yonder lot made about that that the boat was actually wiped down, but it was only thirty percent of the surface. I'm it can be argued. The other way you could say will only the he perceived the service that was wiped out was wiped down because that's where the evidence was by brill I dont see much do it that either because we're still talking about the difference between a soup and a catch people do clean their boats. I dont really see this as something important and I don't see anything that points to his guilt regarding this about the wiping down of the boat. It sound suspicious and you can definitely right in article I make it sound damning. But if we're going to objective about this. I don't think you can.
point two and say yeah? He must be the killer, So in the end, what are they really have again? Scott watson? I know they got a conviction that they don't bodies and can't get witness to say that was him. That was scott watson, that was in the water taxi with Ben and olivia, and guy wallace is the part of the podcast. Were anyone familiar with this case who acts. we think Scott watson is innocent, has been applauding us and it's the same part of the podcast, where anyone who thinks he's fully guilty is going to like thing else, I'm about to say, because I asked think the guy totally did it and I have my reasons you like what but you guys is destroyed all the evidence that really, when you're talking about evidence and you're, making a comparison, just we'll take the sloop in the catch, for instance, when you say
if everyone saw catch- and it was much larger. You know about fifteen feet longer, and to mass. Instead of one did, collars then how can you say that there is evidence against this guy when the police have really gone off the script here. You know they didn't go with, but the witnesses were saying. How could I get that wrong. Well, if you start off with false premise: everything happens after that is tainted. Absolutely pretty much from the start. I went into this? I not being part of a narrative not really carrying if this guy was innocent are guilty. I just wanted to know what happened that night. You probably didn't even know about this case before we put on the schedule. Right sadly, I have only heard of it by name is, and I had no real clue of what the details were I just want to emphasise that very unbiased. Here I just want to the truth, so
the mystery man sketch that was drawn up when I looked that sketch myself the hare does not match, but when I could the eyes when I look at the nose when I look at the mouth, I think dead on four scott. So I thank you Artists. Rendition isn't not far off yes, they got the hare wrong. And when I say the hair, I mean the hair on his head and the hair on his face, and I think this is this is a interpretation of all the witnesses saying. Oh, he had two hair Andy had a beard or facial her well can have the hair was short hair and, if he's out there drinking all night and getting into fights are trying to His hair can get messed up, that's normal in identikit or catch is based on witness testimony. These are people that are drinking and I hate to say that there are not going to know exactly what you're talking about, but little detail like this matter, is the
three inches long, five inches long half an inch. I mean it will matter and There were witness statements taken at the time that they were originally interviewed, that much more mostly match scott watson, then What was later revealed in court. Furthermore, the picture taken of scott watson is rather grainy so pick yup, whether he had some stubble or not, could be rather difficult so going off of people's memories verses statements. First, reality and getting those things line up can be rather difficult and it said that when Ben and olivia asked the mystery man if they could sleep on his boat, his response was she can you can't well, going off his behavior all night towards women. I think that it's his personality pretty well. He was only asking women to get on his boat up until it believe me was there, he asked then, and olivia to get on his boat
and remember the person joked as I just said- hey only she's allowed on so yeah really does fit. He says Then he went back to his boat at some point in the night and he says to a m we know that he went back to his boat that night, because he changed his shirt groomed himself alone little- maybe combed his hair, which he combed his hair. Well, why did he comment probably because it was disheveled and messy right, yeah his hair, that night was actually down close to his collar. So there was after brush, and he did show up in a different shirt that night now there was water taxi that took him back to his boat and that witness wasn't sure the time either, but he said the boat was facing out- which the tide comes in and tied comes out tied was coming in before midnight, and his taxi driver said scott.
The only one waiting for me. There is nobody else so just me- and him in welcome to this location, whereas boat was now- and this is orton for a lot of different reasons, one it play since the time before midnight for the time coming in in the boat will face towards the tide and second there was nobody else on the boat, because everybody else is waiting for that count down at midnight. So nobody else is gonna, just go back to their boat by themself. At this point, everyone's jig, an end for the big hurrah, so does make sense that this was before midnight that Scott went back to her boat to change his shirt and brush his hair and it wasn't at two m yeah and He is seen again some time after midnight at for knowledge, had already talked about amanda egged in talking within it to two forty five in the morning and Of course he had his altercation with oliver perkins and the perkins.
The situation is really really important to this case, because Return you read about what scott said happened that night he said around two clock. I went back to my boat house, possible if he had this heated discussion with oliver perkins between three and three thirty in the morning. Now. Remember Scott by his own emission says I Don't wear a watch. I dont know the exact times, I'm just telling you what happened the way I see it. One then If we assume that he went back to his boat before midnight and then came to the mainland. Well, none taxi drivers are like oh yeah, I'm the one who brought him back well, their cards, people around all night. At around two or three, a m: that's primed. for the taxi drivers, because at that point every one sort of done partying and going back to them so there full loads, and this isn't even to say that scott didn't get back to the mainland,
hitching a ride with some other border or party goer on their personal vessel, but not doesn't say that does he know he doesn't. So I and even speculate on this, because all he says is that he left and went back to his boat. any used, a water taxi of an, guy weren't a hat. that's his own words words are not. I did this. the dad and I got on a dingy indebted da. He admits, that he got into this altercation with oliver that's part of his narrative. Well, now we pay some back on the mainland. After four a m one thing Can track is exactly who was operating a water taxi that night in into that morning, the times they were operating. They know that after three thirty in the morning there room to water taxis operating at that point in time, and that was
guy wallace and the son of the owner of the water taxi company. So this, taxi service is the only one operating in this area and the son of the owner is very adamant that he did not take Scott watson anywhere that night, especially after three, thirty four, a m in the morning he was winding down, so they were back to guy wallace and guy wallace made one more trip out the followed taken people back to their boats, and guy wallace's, the one that gave the initial description of the mystery man on that boat and he gave the description of this two masted catch that everyone's talking about, but this as early in the morning missus knights winding down. The only witness testimony that matters here guy wallace's and
we know, Scott watson went back to his boat, by his own explanation, I wrote a water taxi back, so the only water taxi I could have road after Thirty, I am, would be with guy wallace, then smart analyse the hope, of course he doesn't want anyone to think that he was on that water taxi, because that puts him directly in the path of all the blame for what happened. I've been in bolivia so he's not going to say sure I was on that, but again. If you look at the timeline line, he lied about when he left for knowledge. He lied about going back, his boat and coming back here, admitted having a confrontation with oliver perkins, which there were molt. people there who looked at the time when this was going on really apparent that he's there water. Taxi This guy was with Ben and libya, and at this point can you deny
he's not a great aspect here, because he is the last one scene with them. Now. I know that everyone's John now the chair and saying, but guy wallace described a different person and a different boat, and when you back to the initial our questioning of witnesses guy I gave a similar description of scott watson but said, that's not him and didn't pick em out of line up it's late. It's dark knows if he got a good look at him and then he gave different description of a boat but his he'll descriptions are not. Does a mac two masted kitsch they're alive it's a larger boat, I think ahead, portholes the cops come back and say: that's not what you saw well When you tell somebody that's now, are you saw, I gonna get a little agitated. and he's like now. That's what I saw in the more I remember the more our anymore I hear about everyone talking about this really immaculate boat. That's that
on guy wallace starts dig in into this idea of this to mass did catch and then cops are like that's not what you saw and they start having words and then the king go on to say. Well, you know what guy you were the last one to see Ben in bolivia alive me, we you're the one that we should be looking at, where you can and that guy wallace pretty much the investigators sometimes words and then for his lawyer, because he's now being targeted by long. For and now he really doesn't like law enforcement because of the accusations. In fact he pretty much despises them. so why is he going to work with them on his description of this mystery man and this boat I believe that two masted kitsch exists because when you people saw this thing, but they saw it he's before and days after there's a bunch,
two masted catches that are there actually and one person be like? Oh, I saw one They might not have saw the same. One is somebody else they're all seeing a tomb sid sailboat and thereof thinking. It's the same. One now because I had to sales on the only person that matters is guy wallace, in this whole scenario, it doesn't matter. If all these other witnesses got it right or got it wrong, it's only at that moment of these, but on his water taxi getting dropped off. Guy initially had the disk scott right, but he got his hair wrong or at least the artist that did. The rendition got the hare wrong and he got the boat wrong, and if you can accept that, tat. One person in this whole scenario got it wrong. Initially, well, then you turn everything on its head and instead of making all these excuses for scott things start fitting into place. Yeah- that's really what this is about you can have to
different puzzles that you're trying to finish you have the picture in your mind about spoke, the look and all the available evidence and used feeding them together the puzzle, This can be much more complete. That looks right is the one where you fit in all the pieces that there was no, sorry, man, Scott watson, the entire time he's how in all the same places as this mystery man that people are describing and he play- this himself in a lot of the same places, I mean this isn't like and santa claus, who you never see together, they both have beards above where red and black. This is Mr Mann and Scott watson are in the same places all the time during this night. you have a really interesting. Jessen is if we could to guy wallace and just up ask him some questions to see what he makes of all this? I could. The police have influenced his reaction, his statements, we already know that the police were pretty combative and
anybody as you describe before anybody who is told you got it wrong. You get defences I mean it's a normal reaction. What could we say I mean it if we could get a hold of guy What do you think he would say now he gave an interview. just this year, where he said yeah it was probably scott watson on my boat- that night, in fact I'm pretty sure of it. Now I got it wrong, so I primary witness in this entire case, who is the backbone for he advocates for scott watson. Without guy wallace's story. This whole thing falls apart and guy wallace's, now saying I think I got it wrong and I think they're probably was him and if he made it back his boat. That night I was only one operating at that time in the morning and the description I gave, is pretty close
Scott watson, I think, that's the nail in the coffin right there, myself yeah, some people won't even need that because honestly, if you have scott watson saying no, I left about two am I was gone. I was back at my boat blade, then there's no way I could have done this, and yet by his own admission he had a confrontation with oliver perkins and there were many witnesses there this main bar vernal lodge then he's wrong. Are we going to save our perkins and all these other people gotta got it wrong. Now now they know they talk to a scot watson there, and this was well after three, a m the No, what time they left this puts watson, leaving mainland area to head back to his boat. After? three thirty and again going through, looking at what which water taxis were operating and who is operating them willing?
two drivers, and now we have one of them saying I didn't carry any one, but that description and then the other one saying well, we heads we had a guy with that sort of like tat. I mean come on. Scott watson is on that water, taxi with Ben and olivia he sang you can get on my boat. You can stay there, that's all ass person seem at them and there never seen again. So at that point I think you either have to say that ben and olivia spear on their own in this guy who never Ed, never admitted that he was with them, never admitted that they got on his boat yeah. Well, you have laughed that's murder We're going to have to look at it like that, because there never seen again are gone and if it was, accident. How do they have an accent on some his boat? That person ever comes forward and again robert can this down to a certain time. In the morning with one taxi driver, I
I don't see how you can any more exact and that I do before we started that we could have this whole case said in over within five minutes, but the advocacy four scott watson, the people I truly believe that this is a wrongful conviction there. There narratives have matter sized out there and there our problems with the case. There are problems with the investigation. There are problems with the way the police were questioning and dictating the narrative so. The only way to do the story. Justice is to go through it all and I'm sure pod castle. Probably do multi part series on this and you could you can go down so many rabbit holes, but we have to go through at least the problems to do at justice and to show why this is still being discussed, but then at the end the day and at the end of the podcast. It's that simple. fact of the matter that it was only really one taxi
operating an scott had the beyond it with Ben and olivia so sort of done at that point I'm sure people can argue, I'm sure people can say guy wrong. He he didn't see what he saw, but that's the same The police were telling him to so I would reach out to that guy and tell me wrong. He already told the police were to go when they did that. So this is a big deal in new zealand and I think the more people outside of new zealand, read up on it? It will be a big deal to them. I think one thing shouldn't be lost now this is despite us having broken the key stan explained house- watson was likely the man seen with Ben smart and bolivia, hope We should not lose sight of the fact that, when short cuts, taken. Are witnesses are badgered overrated, that we should get about that. We should never forget about that. If there is investigation- and there are things that are being done- that shit
be done. Then we should call invest scares out on it. We should prosecutors out on things to just because you don't the way the investigation was handled does not mean they, after all the same, that scott watson didn't do it. You can have it both ways you can hold. Vesta, gaiters and prosecutors accountable by if it shone, that someone likely committed a crime. Let's not lose sight of that because, at the end of this case, we're still left with olivia hope and Ben smart who were never seen or heard from again and were likely murdered.
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Transcript generated on 2022-08-27.