Air allow Joshua our great. Are you not that they just don t hey just an eight hour, doing wonderful rachel's. Here. How awesome I didn't know rachel was going to be on high rachel appearance. I like talking about myself there

Hey, that's cool! You know. We live in a state that next to kansas and bob doors from there, and he always talked about bob go even though as bad as I were used to that Now that you have rachel there. Would you like to introduce yourselves yeah, my name's george Zeman, I am may document film maker. I didn't crapsey, then I rich and we did together it was gonna, be a tv show pilot that never anger about back a backdoor pilot, actor and about our calculations. About me, no, the intersection of true crime and urban legends and how it all started rachel yeah rate. what else I met this guy like four years ago, are now that serious came on as a researcher actually

and met families and just became interval. I think in the story that it has become natural for us to on, like you did it, proxy to have a person. to go along in the investigation. So out of that then password for years. now we're doing or we'll just completed. This other show killer, killing season the killings on the other a killer legends right now, you're film crop see, starts with an urban legend. Is this something that you heard about You are young yeah. I used to go into those those buildings and have keg parties there and we used to talk about crapsey and sometimes his name was willie, but we talked all about them you grew up their right. I was our home town in the eu in the middle of this island does very kind of some urban island? You know everybody thinks

there's something evil going on the woods right special. When you come from the sitting. All these people, like I said before, who came from brooklyn when you lived in brooklyn and there was a vacant lot. Nothing good ever happened in that bacon. Lot you got beat up. There was a rape somebody, you know a body, found, and suddenly all those people moved to staten island and then there's all these bacon lots this whole forest you know, and so they always thought something. Bad happened in the forest is how I see people think, but it actually turn to be true, because in the middle of this farce was called. The greenbelt are these network? some abandoned buildings. You the sea view It was a sea view, homes. It was a tuberculosis word. You had the farm colony which was a poor farm. Then you had the willebrod mental institution. So in these.

You know in these forests were really all these old, decrepit old buildings which had all this bad history tiber, and do you know where the name crops he came from? yes, and we got a lot of people were very angry with us that we did not del into the urban legend of of where that urban legend came from, buddy. I'm sorry that I did not do or urban leginn. You know did on this, but crops came from the sleep. Why camps upstate new york, It was a legend united started around there. and legit was pretty much always the same. It was a camper, it was. It was typically somebody of a well repute like a doctor or a judge whose name was crapsey. and they would. There was like a camp near by and he was in a like a cabin

with his newly wed wife or typically his newborn child and hampers burn down the cabin the wife and child die and crop see is disfigured and then goes after the campers with an axe. Why, then, improperly, reaches asking why named crossing is a very common in your common old name, so crapsey was, for example, jasper crapsey, who was a famous painter There was also a judge crapsey. It was admit it was a revolutionary name reflect right, that's where a lot of that came from, but then something about the name itself crop to cut. and that so that's another way, and that urban leginn about that simply camp kay, down to new york city if it worked its way down, and then we attached that to this escape mental patient. Now here's the thing

wherever you go in crossing united states, there are urban legends about mental patients. Mental hospitals you now, and so it was like to different urban legends. Coming together with some real he'll true crime kind of connected to it. So it's like the perfect storm of realness. Some people got upset because you had this connection between crop see and this man suspected to be of a kidnapper named Andrew rand, yeah. To me it makes sense. It's just I'll, make a reference here to the chupacabra, but but macabre everyone. Everyone would say over this little alien creature and it would suck the blood out of goats, but eventually it too

then to these piled with mange, and so they looked weird and they had these really pronounced canine teeth. So they look frightening, but some people were upset by that thing. All it can't be these coyoats. But here you have this urban legend, that's frightening, as you say all over the country we have these, but in this case we actually have someone who is a bogeyman and is operating and taking children. yeah. It was the fact that the police could never catch him like everybody was like the police were like yeah, Andre rand. We interviewed that guy when holly and you've got taken in eighty one you know the pedophile. We know it, you know, but they could never catch him on em, any they can never catch him because it couldn't find the body of the children used supposedly took it's called court at the time is called corpus select, I know body no crime, and so you know back then

these had their hands tied. So what we think happened is that those in the no started to kind of spread this rumour and by it, really tell it kid. Haze of petty found, the woods be careful that doesn't really work in our kids something a little bit better and so I ate. There's an escape mental patients lives in the basement. Who's gonna come snatch. You that works that keeps you from going in. There may be some truth in that right well that's the whole thing, because even when you see how this overhaul the ridge you're like, oh my god, you know this place is a nightmare so you know. You see how these urban ledges come now. It's very interesting by the way is that I don't know as a familiar with the burning which, besides a heartfelt met, features a camp caretaker, crop see, and this was a slash or film. a lot of people know about. It happened at the same time had this kind of this

is one that use the urban legend and that's that film was produced, and I think one is just be wine steam, guys used on mere max one of them produce didn't no one's directed it and they got that case from their sleep, await their jewish sleep way, camp and upstate new york, and then there was the movie sleep awaken. And the most wake up here and friday, the thirteenth which right all kind of mixed in there. But the interesting thing is that you know that another retailing of that urban legend, the crops ear religion. So there's this connection, though, that you make in your fill, where Andre rand is. Essentially the bogeyman come to life, and I guess conor take us through that it. What happened where you said this? This is crazy right, you know Kids, I don't think we were at. We really made that connection until we got older until we started to go back and we're late.

And I remember speaking with some friends out like hate you may, with a guy to jennifer schwaiger. What was that that was crapsey right, don't like to recall that, guy that guy You know what I'm saying: it's like the kids had their own version and then the adults had their version, and only when I became an adult did I then remember that kinda and then make that connection. Does that make sense? Yes, so it was only when I was able to understand it as an adult that I really understood the machination of what was really happening and what was going on and what the stories were and then was very interesting, because I wanted to make a dark. I wanted to make Paradise lost. You know It was one of my favorite doc. You know I want to make this kind of like kay Where was like what they really prove, it know, and it was obviously a lot of pressure going in and this guy probably you know, maybe did something, but even really do everything, and I quickly found out that

there's a reason why you don't have a lot of documentaries about criminal trials is because in new york he can bring. Into the quorum, and I was like What am I gonna do now we went back out into the community. That's me speak to all of those searchers and we realized. The case was about the facts. It was about the fiction. It was about how a community creates a bogeyman and also remember, The any community that deals with the death of its children, someone going in and taking its children, this kind of deadly piper like that is the worst thing that can happen to any community and so people do not know how to understand

and were rationalize the death of their children and somebody who would do that. So that's why suddenly it goes from there's a guy who's doing this to his evil. It is the day well satanic panic like you, must prescribe something which is beyond human. comprehension when it comes to killing children and that evil must be stopped. Oh yes, by any means necessary and in your film you talk about how they really have a smoking gun. Here they don't have the evidence they need to say here is your killer. This is the one boogie man who took your children. It was a a mystery. That we wrestled with, which was the police had been over this three hundred and sixty five acres I'm in time again with dogs with void, detectors with everything, and somehow

and he was eight or nine weeks into the search. They suddenly find things like a pinky sticking up out of the ground and at that point, that a group of searchers suddenly fine, this spot- and there were some question about you know- was she reburied or not? You know. Was this a bunch of search? He had found her somewhere else and they were going to finally stop Andre. and once and for all, and so they took the body and we buried a close to his campsite in an effort to make sure that this evil had been stopped forever. Are you talking about jennifer schwaiger, yeah, sorry, you're? Ok, she was twelve years old and she had down's syndrome now a sage seeing that her parents understood that she was just going for a walk. Yeah was this urban legend that powerful enough to keep parents from letting their children go to

are off from them. I think at that time that was eighty seven right. It was later on this. It is late in the cases you can get I support yet this is. This is later so that's a good question like had the urban legit taken route enough by that point? The parents would tell their kids You know that's hard to say I don't quite remember I mean I knew it as a child, but think I knew it is. Moreover, crops he's gonna, get you with the axe there, and there really isn't a petty far, and it was, Eighty seven! It was a very trusting time jennifer, down syndrome, but she was a very rambo, anxious child. She would go from house to house in the neighborhood, and people would give her food. You know down syndrome, Jordan, they like to eat. And they like sweets and so all her neighbours would give her food, and so she kind of meaning wandered about.

There is even some some talk that she had gone. She had called quote run away before, but that's all what happened, but she got her. Look pocket balkan went to the pizza place up the street of the block you knowing and got a piece pizza, so I dont think that urban life was prevalent enough and probably not in that household. But when the bloodhounds tractor too will brook that, like a couple hours later, I think, that's when suddenly everybody world, like oh shit, yeah young, wonder if her being so well liked by the neighbourhood by her neighbours in our parents felt like she was being watched by many eyes. I think so you know it's it's. You know when you have a special needs child. You know what I'm saying it: it's like. It takes a village, you know, and I think that everybody was looking out for her and I've ve interviewed, and it's it's it's. I can't I manage heartbreaking

so here's the other part and we like to add spirituality to these murders, to give them some sort of you no understanding, but there is the idea that down syndrome. Child has never has an ill will thought in their lives right and so there there- one hundred percent pure innocence and the fact that she was I just made made it that much worse, and I remember speaking to all these people, who were her neighbor and interviewing them in the mirror would be telling about jennifer. They would you stuck bawling, he now because it's like the whole community had failed. You know when I watch interviews with parents who have lost their children, including in your documentaries. It really hits home, it's very powerful and you can't help but feel for them. They had the best intentions they did care and yet a monster still snatch their children. I it's totally true. You know I'm I'm upset

It is well, but the problem is this: the promises, I told a story about a very horrific case about the word case scenario, but you also understand that in that at the time the truth is there was this huge stranger danger hysteria running around and kids work being taken. I strangers they were being molested by uncles and baseball coaches and priests and all those other things. So I do kind of feel bad that, like I, presented this very nightmare scenario, but at the same time I also one of the world to know that it wasn't dissonant. Didn norm? Wasn't this? It was actually

you know the monsters a lot closer than you think yeah. I think that's what makes them so effective is they earn your trust by being in your environment and you get used to them well and in somebody asked wheat, we post a picture of Andre getting arrested today on our page, and somebody said what is this picture of, and I was like: oh that's, andrea and thus picture of him getting arrested, and then he gets charged and convicted of kidnapping and murder in a Italy people were like no, he doesn't get convicted of murder, just kidnapping and I'm, like sure, that's true. That's true. That was a that was a, but it carries in murder. Kidnapping in the first degree carries the same sentence, And- never been charged with murder has only been charged with kidnapping. I saw had never been convict,

if murder has only been convicted of kidnapping yeah, they charged him in one of the cases that I know of yeah, but it the jury decided there wasn't enough there to convict him of that. That's right that picture is just fascinating. I I didn't think he was competent enough to stand trial and then they they put him in the mental ward for awhile, and then they charge him later with the kidnapping. What you think of that. So here's an interesting thing I mean remember this was in nineteen eighty seven and I think our the standing of the mentally ill, I mean. First, we saw how badly we understood the mentally ill? In nineteen you? No seventy two with hereafter and its. Eddie amazing how much we still don't know the mentally ill, at least in eighty seven. I believe that he did in fact go into a kind of toxic state, but that's not something that you can prove unless you like hooked him up like red. At that moment,

to some sort of device, and so people didn't quite know whether he was faking or not. You know was he crazier crazy, like a fox? The one thing I can tell you is that speaking with him in the very little that we did or speaking with his lawyers, when he is not in a catatonic state. You know he's not going through us, and you know it schizophrenia kind of break. He's wicked, intelligent he's a smart guy he's a little on the spectrum. It you know, he's a very smart guy and so it's very hard when no, you speaking with them is very lucid and in all those things to then go to that picture and to believe that somebody could What had would theoretically happened to. Him is basic kind of you see in the movies when they have that you know psychopathic break. If you will, you know like just

It gets all too much and suddenly the mind just kind of shuts off that, theoretically, is what happens in this type of schizophrenia that I've been told that he has, and I I figured once he was not medicated. So therefore he's having an outbreak or having breakdowns and possibly doing these horrible things, kidnapping people and then they give him treatment and then once he's better than he stands trial and I thought well, how has it if he's not, you know fit to stand trial at that time. Then right. Is he really accountable for his actions? That's a good question. I I think it was this. It was that and I think this with a lot of criminals, specially pedophiles, especially people, rapists, people who kind of like react so, basically at the time he was getting into, I think he had like we did include, the family had a girlfriend and, and he broke.

With her and that some of the brothers we're gonna beat him up. something like that. He was here. Some sort of stress in his life and I think that caused him to react. And then a rapist that would be rape in aid, a file that would be kind of going in having a child. He then snatches the child and the DE, is that the reality of his crimes? Couple days later, when the police pick him up, and they say you, Did this. You did this. You no kind of pounding him in the interrogation room. That's when the brake happens. Does that make sense yeah it absolutely so that shot of him drooling is basically when they brought him into the holiday inn in staten island. They showed him the tape of willowbrook and that's when you know they confronted him with

the grave necessity of his misdeeds he then snapped, and at that point they were like will now are charging him. You know what I'm saying, and so then they did the purple walk and that's when we see him drilling in the eightys, there was the residuals of those satanic, tanning panic and I my benefit from Europe from your documentary. You talk about, say, satanic calls and people are talking about these colts abducting children. They always say that he might have had somebody helping him hide the children in tunnels. Now, unlike the mic martin case, there were actual tunnels in this town right where they could,

put people, but there they never proved her had anything to say that you know that was the crazy thing about the big martin trials, right levels and levels of dungeons and things like that, underneath the pre school in southern california- and I think so or witches riding broomsticks so, but in this case you're absolutely correct, and so I think in much like the case itself, had kind of urban legend type details, hysteria type, details that had some truth and so it only allowed the kind of pitchfork public to go when crazier and yes so many institutions built at that time have tunnels Did it basically so that they could move patient, and children around without having to shovel, because that You know when you have a big facility, it costs a lot of money to shovel, and so

when it snowed. They could lead the kids downstairs through the tunnel. Act to another building also without losing them here and I'm saying that the patience of the kids they would you know a lot of them like you know, take off the clothes remembering they would wander around and so was away to control them and also away that one staff member could control You know what I'm saying, member the ideas that you had one staff member for like thirty profoundly. develop mentally disabled children, which is crazy. Considering everything that they are doing now. when we spoke to the searchers went down in the tunnels. They were looking for jennifer and they would find these old kind of child paintings on the wall that you actually see in the herald of footage- and it would say, did you stop and count the children? And this was like the one first line that you could ever have as I get out of our horror movie right. So then they just started to really just freak thou

but these tunnels were real and these are the same towels, and this is the same idea that you haven't colleges across all the united states member. When the dungeons and dragons thing was going down. You know that the kids would go into tunnels. and do it and you know, ecologists do have tunnels a lot of mental institutions do have tunnels. A lot of old institutions do have tunnels beneath them. Do you think that he was working in with anyone else? Do you even think he's actually guilty? That's a good question. I think he did something, but I don't think he did everything I think that there were a lot of patients who did returned to the facility after a closed because- was where they spend their whole lives. That was where do their parents were encouraged to drop them often to never return. So You know, and now it is thanks to reaganomics what we did

and the institutionalization. At that time we took a bus load of people and we dropped him off in the middle of new york city without any follow up that, one way in which we had the homeless issue in new york city I a lot of other places and while out of that homelessness, you know dovetailed with mentally ill. A lot of people did return. And I think Andre rand You see, I summoned says he's like an evil like Jim Jones. You know You had a lot of very honestly, gullible naive. You know people we're may be interested in your own sexuality at the time and I think rand with somebody who manipulated those individuals into helping him do it. He needed to do. I don't think it was cool easy machiavellian. If that makes any sense, I think it was just kind of twisted and sometimes little bit tragic, and so I do think he had some sort of help.

The searchers and the public were like Jennifer is being held against her will and she's being, race through the tunnels, as searchers would go to one area. You know a collective mentally disabled people. You know her helping, rand's kind of ship. A fool's would bring him to the to the next area, like I don't think that was happening at the same time, this was in nineteen, eighty, seven, all those p in staten island had come from brooklyn and in brooklyn seven years earlier was son of sam and son of SAM had a lot of satanic, goings on in the back behind it, and so I think we were seeing a lot of of hysteria off son of SAM? But one thing I will tell you is that so sam really did have a satanic component to it whether it was real you know or whether it was people you know doing a lot of bad aids, and then you know, and using religion like some

people. Do you notice tat kind of to get it done? You know to sell drugs. Our children and say was it's all. You know for the devil. The jockey apply it exactly like what better way you're going to get people to do anything so that shaded this case. And if you ever read retirees the ultimate evil. You ok see how that shaded this case, but there was some truth to that. In this case, you had yes say: tat, panic you had guys like heralded who were spewing. The most ridiculous say tat, a panic you could ever believe but you also had cops who did believe that something really was going. I'm not the cops that you seen the film or actually it was so you know the guy with a really long face the guy dressed in black. The guy who talks about some people like to you- no worship the devil. He worked on the eaten page case and he worked a little bit

in some of its a lot of other child pedophile cases where if you were getting a little bit of dyke, these kind of like fake devil worshippers were using the devil to like go around and snatch kids. Well, unlike the cropsey case, and this new show you're doing where children are the you have to be the most evil person to go after children, and we must stop this threat in your new tv show or mini series. The victims are almost ignored. No, we want to talk about your new show. This is a darky series that debt and eight part darky series which is preparing on any november. Twelve which is a saturday and it's not gonna do another shiro murder case I was, I was crops, it's just too much I wanted every when I was growing crops here is like oh, do just totally do another serial killer movie or you should you like a thick

and I was like It was interesting eyes like you have no idea what murders really like and I was like you go talk to him. These lost their child, whose then spent you know forty years of their life replaying that those moments and over again, you have no idea and then this case happen. Yeah and I'll. Just click run down in Two thousand ten for bodies were found along a desolate highway. Long island, new york for bodies about five hundred feet apart wrapped in her lap and they were all on craigslist sex workers over the course of another couple of months- the police ended up uncovering the remains of. ten, more sex workers related to sex work?

no sorry, six, six six more in two ten bodies that were found along this highway. I thought I was gonna, get off pretty quickly I think we could live in a day and age in which you can find ten bodies and people you wouldn't find. Who did it and that didn't happen? basically year one nor rests year, two nor rests, and suddenly I was like wait a second what's going on here, it's time to pick up a camera, because now this was fraternity for us to show what cyril murder is really like to go behind them. Lines and to show how these investigations are so difficult kind of show all those people were watching Hannibal and all that other stuff? Now like sure murder isn't just ass sexy now it it's not titillating, it's really more horrific,

you can ever understand and that's the inner that something like what we tried to do with crapsey with her aldo stuff like you have no idea how how horrific it isn t. You watch this around a fudge, and that was this, thing we had here. You have no idea how bad it is up, until you really look at these case yeah. I think so, John started on shooting. What that being the killing season. While we were imprudent, in four killer legend, see you off in the wagon and tell me how I just see now draw prostitute around long island and took her from you know. The job essentially MA am, I interviewed. You would tell me, interviewed on the author, a robber koker, bob koker of loss, girls, grey novel one great book now, novel nonfiction so Oh, you know a essentially was going to be so contained feature document or much in the same vein as as crop sea area soon, but it became very

parents to us very quickly that long island wasn't contain this is actually happening in some, new places across the country, yeah and, of course, the crimes were being approached in the same manner. It seemed across the country yeah from the law enforcement perspective or from the crimes themselves. It seems to be very similar across the board and I think it's because we can look at different aspects. If culture and generally you'll find people have very similar reactions to things. So, if you say someone was a sex worker, most people will look at that with disdain, and I think we might find that with law enforcement as well, I'm not saying that all law enforcement would feel that way. It just seems like

have to have priorities. They only have so much in their budget dealing officer have security detectives and where are they going to put those people? Very true I mean look you know these women make it their jobs to evade law enforcement. That's that's why The point is you know what I'm saying you're doing something legal, I'm not. I don't want to blame the victim here, but I'm just the reality is that when you're a sex worker and sex workers legal you are going to the by product. Is that you create yourself as the perfect victim right You know what I'm saying, and so, when suddenly they find these bodies there there's you know it's not retractable. You know there they they try and hide from law enforcement. So immediately, You are at a disadvantage in terms of trying to solve this crime as an investigator. You know Nowhere they were you dont know, no, who the last person was

but then there's something interesting as well, which is the internet, has changed prostitution as We know it no longer. some women walking the streets and instead, there just snapping itself, and going to meet someone up at the holiday inn up the street and there's the idea somehow, because The deal was initiated off back page that, there's some kind of paper trail electronic paper trail somewhere. But in fact that's not the case and the That makes it a lot more anonymous, you're, not leaning in to the car and looking at that guy who you're about to go off with any kind of making that you know The sex workers tell us that the lean in and they make that decision right there and then using their spidey sense. You know this guy killer or not? They don't have that when you make a deal.

Over the phone and then you show up and the door opens a new step in the door. You know- and that's where you get your first look european side inside will, unless the law enforcement can access their email and see what d you know, John was emailing them where they were gonna meet. I I think yeah. I the brings about a great point and that's what I thought going into this like everyone's tractable right. I I'm on these check into some restaurant but, as jar said like they are all trying to evade law enforcement they had burner cell phones, they deal in cash transactions. You know that they are an end. These these killers know that you know there are no longer going or runaways or hitchhiker, is or sorority girls. You know we live in a track society, so they're going to go to the people.

or abating law enforcement themselves. Yes, they're they're, not emailing back yet they're, just calling off a number. That's on the advertisement rating, also like we do live, and if in a society where it feels like if you are functioning transactions on the internet? There is an inherent feeling that there's a vetting system there, which is absolutely two and a lot of respects you know but not when you're dealing with back page, not when you're dealing with craigslist- and these are the more independent women they dont have say, a pimp looking out for them or some kind of a body guard, and some of them claims to have that bad. It's going. I'll, be the case. That's a really good question. I think I think definitely allowed them are definitely independent and I think that

that you know their drivers. These days are what are their quota hope penza? Their quota quote body guards, but you know they really aren't safe and I think that you know we talk to super who, using the first episode and this isn't it in the series, but I know I had a conversation with her and she said that she seeing alive younger girls a lot more night girls who are getting into business and I think that's because they feel that social media being online like there's the safety net that deals against their enemies, extremely easy to take a photo posted on that page, and instantly you're getting inundated with calls me. I mean that that was that was one of the interesting things for me. Have sex work. Could change was no more pimps anymore. They were like drivers and that the guys we're like half liable? You know

and so but like when I won. The first interviews I did was with the sex workers, and I was driving her round up and down the long island expressway going to all these like holiday ends in hampton ends, and- and I was just like theirs- crazy underground society happening here in the most suburban place in america, like long island is where levity started, the first suburban community, and so it was just so amazing to me that this girl, now there are like. I was like there's an active serial killer, who is out there are killing prostitutes sex, workers, aren't you worried, and she's like no. No, no, I'm not worried, I'm not worried, but, like you can tell she were you know, because any client her next kai could be her last year this is the thing about the budgets and where to put their resources yeah, you have victims who are evading law enforcement,

and aren't leaving a very good trail at all that just makes it that much more difficult. So why put resources into this? Is that the real sense, here that these people are worded is seeing the family law is concerned. I know you, ve interviewed families and they are concerned, but there is an item that end point. That's very much what it is. I think a lot of it is the families, if the Mom's, don't scream and yell nobody's gonna come look for those women, you know what I'm saying, and so the perception is their sex workers it. You know, I think, lawn forces that does give law. Foresman, a good like it's more like. Oh, my god, you know. How am I supposed to go find this girl. You know what I'm saying like this is impossible. You know, so I think it. Maybe it's not so blatant. You know, although it

to be. There used to be a term that police had for crimes against sex workers like a sex work, got raped her if she got beaten up would colony on the radio is called no humans involved, and that was that was a term that had been committed in like san diego and like them, tina, seventies and so sex workers? where we know humans involved, but I dont think police for that. Bad, you know anymore, I don't I did get stigmas is is not as bad, but I think I know what I was going to say is that I think it's difficult, forlorn person- and I mean we all- want to throw long person under the bus in the series you know they could doubling do a lot of things better, but he also definitely understand the fatigue that they pose experience with a lot of missing persons allotted and think communities p who go missing. Quite often, in pop up. You know, but for every person goes missing and pops up, you know,

every fifty of person actually something was wrong? a bad something bad happened to them. But how are you going to know you know, but then again the other thing that we uncover is that An enormous amount of law enforcement agencies that had unsolved cereal sex worker murders. Were also under investigation by the department of justice for civil rights violations. So basically you have law enforcement

Is that, for some reason, don't do very well in terms of community policing, and the question is: does that somehow allow killers to maybe feel like they can get away with it? And I think that was a little bit of what we were saying when you have soft targets, when you have an area whether it be the internet website, or you know, a neighborhood that you know there isn't a police presence, you know there isn't going to be anyone trying to stop you, the bad guys kind of start to float in that direction. Do totally that's totally what we saw in cleveland albuquerque. You know in numerous different places.

And I wonder too, if you brought up albuquerque, there are certain places in the country where corruption is more prevalent. I wonder if you know, say some communities and around the country, maybe- and I'm just throwing this out there, but maybe minneapolis, perhaps fares better when it comes to tackling crimes this then say albuquerque yeah likes you know, san diego is really good at solving their crimes. Places like detroit baltimore albuquerque, you know so That's him gray law enforcement agencies, daytona the police chief previous, please if there was unbelievable, very transparent, but we met some believe believably, non, transparent law enforcement agencies and crime begets crime. It was shocking how much corruption had seeped into the albuquerque police department and how that

filtered down into these communities, and you know it is It's really it's a shame. This episode brought to you by peacock bridge ending the original limited series, a friend of the family, based on story of the Jan roper, kidnappings from nickel. oscar executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer, eliza, hip and comes a dark, compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber Burke herself, the series stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream now only on peacock, take mom to get away from our sponsor racked racket, tennis, smartest and most rewarding way to shop and save earn cash back Over thirty five hundred stores and every single category like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals travelled, dining subscription services and much more membership is free, and it's real easy to sign up racket in japan

it's your cash directly into your paypal account or they can send you a check. It's a no brainer. You can cash back for what you already are shopping for rocketing has, fifteen million members who are already saving store all your shopping, rackets and outcome or get the rackets an app to start saving? Today, that's racket in our aid hey you t e dot com. You had spoken to one police officer who had a very questionable tactic of trying to scare the women off the streets. Were you able to confirm that they were actually using that hectic or was it just something? He said we were never able to confirm that and that for her. I would not say that was out of the realm of possibility there You believe him I kind of did believe, and I think that I think he was actually truthful. I think that,

working buys. Writing always would make that up. what he was he was like down on the streets when your vice you're dealing with. but yeah yeah. I totally believe them. I thought that he thought that he was doing the right thing, and even though I'm not gonna say it worked well and that cop, by the way like people are convinced he was the killer. They are convinced to this day. I still but the real question that I have on this is so there's this comment that's supposedly made, which is we're going to kill you? I mean how does that help these women that are out there if they would need assistance there, and I went to the police now saying like saying like it. If this composition, but if I see you back out on the street, I'm gonna kill you because you know. we're killing girl right. You know you know that didn't work, I mean they're kind of them like say

on the streets no matter what, but you know most These women have substance, abuse problems, whether you may go to the street. You know you're gonna go to the street and I make too much money. So all you ve done is basically like prevent them Coming to you with the angry. I gave him with an arrow that that was one of the more crazy police tactics. Greeted ever heard by you know it was so outlandish to say We were shocked that way. that is to say we are killing. We. We told these women that we were killing them in an effort to take them up, keep them off the streets. I mean he's crazy. but there was a certain logic to this is certain treat logic to it. I guess, but it was all that one officer is it? What no one else was using this tactic. As far as you are aware. Well, I would not be, the prize of people in other cities, is that a but yeah, I'm sure like he adds value

Is, I mean, I'm sure they? They share their view, known tactics, newsboys them some right for em like eyes as antics, hashtag vice I think that the the girls week some is something that you guys confront: murderers and suspected murders and for episode, one I was screaming at the screen. Why don't you have a security? You know to deal with? later on. You do what what change that prompted that out of insurance issue were down. The network requires us to have been network me. Carry around bulletproof vests with as everywhere we went, we never wore them, they just stand, back at the production van I'm like do really have to carry around April prevents I was like if we're gonna die, we're gonna die. So let's just do this.

I guess, when we were in long island closer to home, I think we fell but safer, just as we were in new york and our own element in, but when we started to hit places like the deep woods of florida, like full on true detective land, nay, I and suddenly you felt like you know that, guy that we interview that, while I was in the same way and buff with us, yet we above with his work we went. That was because we went to that yeah to a certain motorists, oh gang, which we will not say publicly, who is known for literally killing and beating people, and we knocking on the door of that law of that motorcycle club, like that is stupidly dangerous thing to do. But it was you know it's a star. So crazy it just my work now. The other thing is: is member that episode

As you know, you see us talked to that one guy who lived on that farm never seen a fire. It was swampy compound compounds that that there's two bodies on that count it on those grounds. There are two bodies. In it, there was only one way and in one way out the headache, I'll tell him what then than sound on his phone as a whole. You ever couldn't shovels, in the middle of the earlier locking the ass, we were walking up. Suddenly the guy's phone rings. It gets their warning him that we were coming you here so the rising sun out just. Clear constitution were like oh in the right place, but that was a prick equally scary interview as well, because that that was that was a bad scenario

has really bad snare. I believe that there are two bodies on those grounds this goes back to. You are saying that you really didn't want to cover serial killers again and- and I thought to myself- well it's not about your comfort level, you're thinking. We need to do this and it led you to communicating with biker gangs and to me that it really brought some sort of fear to the episodes, because I can't imagine trying to set up a meeting with people like this you are pretty ruthless. I can see it on your faces, like feel it through the screen when you guys are attempting to set this stuff up. You realize the kind of risks that you're taking the motorcycle. was pre harry. I was pretty flow.

Daytona general was is ready area. Yeah, I mean there's. Look we were doing it for like ratings. I, that you know what I'm saying it was like. If you want answers as to who is killing women in the community, that's where you go to get these answers. You no crime. That's crime like bad guys mix with bad guys We found that when we were having a conversation with this guy, you know john ramblings, who is in jail? You know he told us. Oh, I had a network of seven other people, five other people and we would trade women back and forth. You know what I'm saying so again you know. If you want answers, that's where you have to go and get it, and I think we always felt like we may be able to solve the crime. If we just went far enough, jan, I think piggy back on that is that we didn't

want this series to be sanitized. You know we wanted to be real what you see is what you get in the series yeah, there's no scripture anything. Now. It felt very wrong. It was one of the ross like greediness things. I've watched on a while now, let's get going gonna concurs. Mother That's the whole thing like that. You know it's not like Hannibal. It's not like. What's that show the fall, where it's like a really good looking easier, I yeah right good, looking serial killer, you now and it's like a female best together in their like kind of playing cat and mouse. It's kind of sight, in a way tat. You know like now. It's not like that. In our view,

and if you want to know what it's really like, this is what is really a thing you know, and that's something that came across was that some of these murders may have been committed by people where other people had knowledge of those murders knew who the killer was, and it was just a matter of. Would they ever talk? Would they ever release that information yeah? Its frustrating is there to question for you. Is there a specific case that you think they're? There are people who know more information. You aren't coming forward one. I guess one of the things that really struck me during the series was at some point because you start with the long island serial killer case will go, you stretch out from there- and there are all these murders happening to prostitutes, and you discover that wait a minute. The best way to commit these murders and get away with it is

be a truck driver. Has you dont? Have you know the catches go to your home and search it? These people can pick up a woman and drive across state line throw off the sight of a highway, and no one has any idea how she got there and where's your crime scene, now. I spoke with someone. I know who was a truck driver for thirty four years, He said back in nineteen eighty, we had a conversation with his nephew, whose a police officer and said you know if you're looking for connection, you can just get on your savior. The au and ask will contact you back and his nephews saying, and I believe that well, sure enough. He had him get on the sea, be radio. This woman, I said, all I'm a lonely housewife. Where are you at and she showed up in minutes to chuck this rest up and of course they gave her the wrong description of the truck,

and here she comes driving up and she goes up to a different truck and is knocking on the door. And luckily the man wasn't there. You must have been in eating or using the restroom and they said she slowly drove around and then finally laughed, but it all he had to say on the sea. Be radio was: are there any lonely, women out their young cat, commercial, yeah commercial traffic more strongly the electricity we're still, but the interesting thing there is. That is not happening, how much of this amy radio anymore, it's actually happening on back agent craigslist with d like motel sixes that are right. max. You re all right well more sophisticated due to the unita yeah. So now like it's happening on computers in the trucks with yeah you as you know, and so that was crazy, but yeah. The trucker thing takes it to a whole new level of of of fear of of

means of greedy, miss it's it's tough. I mean you know picking a woman up, killing her and dropping or four states away, and nobody knows who the hell. She is because she doesn't have any honor and and like how long is it going to take to connect that murder back was where, with its one thing for us, to happen, but you like ok when she gets into the morgue, we're going to figure that out and then you realize no, what we need. These databases aren't connected. Why somebody's using a mac and another person is using a pc and that's why we can't connect name to a fate. Are you kidding me it's that that out there and then We interview, you know the head of the vice cap program and he's like oh yeah. We don't connect half the cases that we should yeah. It's a scary thought that a woman abducted in texas can be dropped off in colorado,

and they colorado authorities find the body, but they have no idea who she is their checking their missing persons cases and we had they don't know which state to look in I mean, and the number of missing people in this country is so vast, is so large that there's no way I am surprised they can identify as many people as they do, which brings me to another. Question which is when we do research on cases. I often go out to webs loose, just ignore it at age and what people are discussing what's important to them, what their thoughts are with their takes on different evidence or people. Minos suspects are, and you have webs lose all over this series. Officially one hour until your favorite show premiers time to get some snacks delivered through instead cart. Ok, let's get some popcorn seltzer chocolate almonds and wheat. Did they really

the whole season? Better cart. Some ice cream for the two part, finale your day should be ending, but a new season is starting the world is your cart visit into cart, dot, com or download the abbot. Yet free delivery on your first order offer vow for a limited time. Minimum order, ten dollars additional terms apply the what the one guy what's his name peter, grant brent view that guy's a character yeah, but you know so. Here's the so before I started with Peter I'm like alright, you know he's like yeah, you know it's! The police, they don't know anything, nobody knows anything, you know, I'm a I'm a you know profile and he was saying some smart stuff. I gave him the case files for cropsey as a test and they were pretty good. The report we are really pretty good guys. Esben calculation, It's us against the right, and so I was impressed you know, but

It was. Nice is like you're getting somebody who who also understands who can give you the real deal on law enforcement, and then you guys guys, like Carl Kay you know who are matching names to faces you know this guy is doing what the police can't do, because let's face it, who has time to No go through all those to do the facial reconstructions you notice. To look at all. You know police records from the nineteen fifties, but the thing is that he's finding a lot of cereal murder connections. The east It is identifying a lot allowed victims from cereal murderers. You know what I'm saying so he actually could end up really breaking case, but that was what was so surprising to me that Yes, as a ton of crazy people out there. As you know, you do the same thing.

But every now and then you find somebody. I go like oh on the ball, so you say in the series this series that's coming about how many discoveries that Absolut has made it's like a community of armchair detectives and they're all morning very hard. Do you know when they make some sort of discovery? How does it get pushed up and sending out as a result. Well, because guess you know there are thousands of posts yeah right, even thousands or millions? Yet when they do make a connection, it's pretty well documented. You know a lot of theirs. It's a lot of hard things to measure like. I think that there is a lot of probably clues that people are talking about that. Just don't get picked up from reason that the only way to quantify quantifiably measure results is typically with the missing an unidentified when they do do that. The problem, Is that law enforcement,

Just don't take them seriously. So a lot of their work falls in china, Do you know the nether world of like you know they call them, sing persons, typically like the bunker squad like a lot of people, get sent down and missing persons are like cops, are being punished so why to think they guess. I totally good missing persons and I'm remains and making this connections. But I also think that law enforcement is slowly being more open to this kind of crowd. Solving community. We off talk about this case of the tea the other two sure yeah the teacher ago, and now I think he was new time this and an and if I remained this this joe, this john doe, who is right, this t shirt and there is a little bit of like some kind.

drawing on there and they knew this was for, like thirty years and for whatever reason the the police chief released a picture to websites and within? I think, twenty four hours. They had figured out what the t shirt was with the logo. What the logo was, where with songs. I'm I'm not quite sure if the case has been solved I do identified it, but to actually like identify a piece of clothing and to be able to track that. That's a huge break ran a case chrome is well yeah as you know, the ny exactly as we all know that the powers out there right, because we see it like jeez, look at you know proud funding. You know what I'm saying like, so we all the powers out there, but law enforcement just doesn't have the wherewithal Maybe a little bit his ego warlike even the services to go in and be like? Ok gang, you know, but that's me

We were how it should work. It should be that there is like somebody who releases to this community piece of information that they know is just gonna, be like they're gonna, say stay up hours to figure it out and then I send that piece of information that, whether it's a missing person like that's exactly what I would do. If I was law enforcement, I would send the picture a missing person. It'd be like okay, guys, you know all ok new detectives. You know we ve got this missing persons, everybody out. There go, try and find out who it is. If you know, if you can harness that power, then. I saw a ton more case and I really do feel like that's. Where we are going, I mean I, I quite often say that law enforcement is still pretty much of a good ol boys club which is totally understandable and as we as as they you know as new millennials, commend the force and and understand social media and the power of crime

it's worth seeing. I do feel like we're going to able to turn to them for help legitimately yeah. But again the the the public sector is always behind the private sector when it comes to that stuff right. But the potential is there and we already seen results, and so there has to be some sort of a trust. I suppose a new approach taken, because you know they don't have to do it in every. case, but of course you have these cold cases or you have cases they just seem like you, ve had a wall and their relatively new, whether its old knew just send it over to webs lose some of the people that are. There are obviously very good at what they do and it seems a waste to not you lies those resource whilst like the ultimate tips hotline totally right there ebay, the best way to approach it, to get law enforcement, to see the usefulness of this

really wished long. I wish somebody would give us that opportunity. I wish because could like ok, guys, give us your cases. Give us a little bit of effort, a lot of times? The reason why these missing an unidentified dont get identified is because somebody put in a raw, a piece of information in like nineteen. Eighty six, like some cop, has been working fifteen hours and he's like her impacting on the keys and he puts in for two instead of fort. What do you know what I'm saying and a reason couldn't be dispersed this person six foot to you. So it's like. Oh that's how these missing get me that's why these people don't get connected, and so you can go back like they'll, be the cool thing in the world like to go to police departments. Be like give me your cold cases. Give me something method. It doesnt quite work and let me go to town with a bunch of websites. There's the problem is lucky, Enforcement agencies are so territorial. They won't even talk to each other, much less citizens. Yet I think that's why,

the reason why the action hard that we have at the end of every episode it does, it is not just the one eight hundred tips or the local eight hundred number to give you know I'd tips to, Actually directs people two officers dot com as well I hope that that generates new audience and and new, hopefully quote. armchair detectives totally have one observation. When you are talking about a cop missing putting something I I did a police ride along with our local police department, and I was watching him- fill out a police report about a gun that he found and it wasn't like he, you know, got it off. A person was on the street just laying there and he's typing into an as four hundred type interface.

And the gun models and manufacturers are not in alphabetical order role at all of the makes and models. Somebody has he get get these guys better user interface. This year, I'm saying like, if apple put as much work in you know the operating system, for that's the thing that we see like it's unbelievable in terms of the algorithms. You know what I'm saying. Basically, netflix has a better algorithm. Then the united states of america in terms of having to try and solve its murders. You know what I'm saying like we pick better movies than we do find killers in you. You interviewed the guy who is it murder, accountability project as higher of greasy. How is it that we do not have one database in the united states, that is mandated where all the law enforcement agencies have to

put in their murdered data. It didn't crazy to me that that one citizen can have the most robust database of murder. Face it, and I tell people this as I do. You know that police are required, to send in their murdered data to the fbi and there like Y know, I can't be true, unlike in storage or so This takes some sort of federal action to make that work. Good luck, sick request, one thing if we were going to solve that issue, it will take something hi is government to regulate really done a lot of the work in trying to figure out how to make that he has so you see gregg cooper, who Josh was talking about a thing earlier. I was the head of via hat for awhile, who really understands the limitations of by cabin understands broken system and he has used retired now, has a am, as an organisation called the coca cola cup it's the foundation

and there really trying to figure out while working with the federal government, how they can make the via cap database better how we can sink everything up how we can have like an apple, Peter literally title a mac. You know a lot of it is an exile spreads. She, where there is one common- right now. I can talk to each other. You know, so they have some very interesting ways to do this, but everything It goes at a glacial speed. Will you know so basically the way that they do it? Is you can't do it federally? You have to do it through state. You can do it better, really, but there's a there's a there's, a backdoor kind of weight into a which is this compaq state agreements, which is a way for every eight to agree to having a certain way to submit mandate miss I data and in each state

don t? Do it and then, after you get like one third or two, I can't remember the states to agree to it, then it becomes man It becomes federal right, but it's not gonna happen federal down now swords there have to be a standardization. That's agreed to see. You'd have to get the states to do the work to come together on us. That's that's what we understand. seems to be kind of a backdoor way to do this in the easiest way to learn and is their interest. That's it. Are you question? I mean I've been working with them for the past year, its again very slow going, so they have to get like a certain amount of states too. Sign onto it, an editor a bit like you know, snowball that so once you get a certain amount of states, then another state will sign on. So I am very hopeful, and I hope that through this series People will slowly understand that you know,

lot of our systems are broke, in which I had no idea going into this whole thing that our databases are extremely and so you know Hopefully, some kind of grass movement- grassroots movement- will happen, that will have to wait and see yeah. So everybody has the idea that all of our information is being put into supercomputers twenty four seven lease on it. Domestic side does not really happening. Law enforcement is not that good to be on. But it's not really. Their fault, though, is it. I mean this is kind of just a mess that happened because we haven't progressed enough, but that comes down to certain people making the right decisions, the very much officer on the street. He can't change this but of course, mechanic. Let pro euro process get in the way of progress here, that's loud wrong, but it has not yet ok, but let's talk about nine o clock,

the money. Where did? Where did nine eleven money go? You know it went to a p armored personnel carriers instead of training instead of computer systems, or things like that. So we have to prioritize, and the problem is is let's face it. If you had a choice between spending five hours in putting you know exactly who found on the side of the road right right verse going to shoot that gun on a saturday? You know you know you the choice that you'd want to make. You know what I'm saying so he can you know those those are the issues at play as well, and sometimes law enforcement agencies need to you now do not do the funding for the eu to help long horse into the best job they can by streamlining what what they can do?

right. The other thing is like so can: can the public sector learn from the private sector? Can the private sector donate enough to the public sector so that it becomes easy. So, basically, you know some guy just basically puts this very this system into place and allows all these law enforcement agencies to kind of very easy We scale up. The question is: are always alone for maybe he's gonna trust each other, because it is the de egg and he used the same database as the atm. You can use the same data base as the portland police department, which is going to use the same as the florida police deplore when you know somebody, so the florida department, you know a system. for accounting for some he sold portland a different system based on budgets and constraints and stuff like that example, at law enforcement does want to solve crime absolutely and they want the best tools to do it. So I dont know. Besides

budget constraints. What would be the push back here? I'd think territory. Cracked territory asked the territorial, isn't it, but I think the you know. Look at me were also saying, like I don't think, there's really making those decisions. Do you know them? it's. Ok, it's not like somebody sitting in the room. Saying yes, we're gonna do you know and then their thinking bad that I think you know again overworked under underpaid, what their thinking about his clearance rating going out like hitting the streets and in our young people there not thinking about cheese. I wish my computer system, you know talked better, you know my car

I am a sunk up with bob's column, see you know what I'm saying. It's just you're talking about a lot of bureaucratic problems, but once you start introducing these ideas into the public arena, like you are with this new series, then perhaps you will have people who can make decisions tell further this along. They will take it run with it possibly correct of eight. We are, I think we are letting a lot of people have a free pass, because guess what in canada? It is man well, but don't we ignore what canada does we do ok, but guess why canada is much better at solving their crime. There's them worse than we are and it's not because there are so few of them. One of the reasons is, because they have a fully integrated via cap system. They took thereby cap system from our by cap, if they made mandatory and they have like triple a man of records in the via cap system. So when you

Issues like what we're talking about. We didn't say it earlier, but its linkage blindness when different age, he's care really see a crime, the connections of a crime. there are able to they have a computer system and an algorithm that much better at seeing those at seeing. Those connections will be interesting to see if there It's because it's one thing that I know that rachel said she's working to try and get this moving, but there is nothing more powerful than a series like this people are, are visual creature So when they're sitting down to watch the killing season at some point, maybe it will start to click file. This could be useful again. I dont think they're paying any attend nor can canada. Does us duly noted.

So that is one thing. That is what I wanted to say to you. Both is that you have this interest in true crime. Your film makers, but as you get involved with these things, starts to spur you in different directions and its obvious that it takes you much further than just filming the show it goes beyond the series, oh yeah I mean we lived it having were selling and still more time here didn't I I wanted to tell you that I love the intro song. and I am glad the faint among our tastes and music. We heard that come about it. Tell us How is the question you know? I think what what what was it like two or three years ago were like. Wouldn't it be great if we had that Bela lugosi song, I was never gonna happen by, wouldn't it be great, I wanted borders he's dead in it and am in a movie. Since I was sixteen years old

like one day, I'm gonna get Bela lugosi death in something, and I never thought it would have been in asia yeah now. Why? Then, you now to give them credit, they were super open, bang they really respected, but we are doing and were very open. I m songs dinning, like every single fucking, sorry vampire. Movie. There has been. Yes, I had to write a letter to Peter murphy, which I am very glad to do and ask I can use the song and You know I mean I I was trying to be like. I know this is a vampire but I really think that this Really you no kind of important to kind of set a vibe for the show. You know this kind of darkness and I was a golf kid and you know again I urge waiting I've waited years of my life to put that song in something

and then when any was like. Yes, I was so excited, and I mean maybe comes from the hunger right, yeah hunger, worse meaning, no meaning like idea the sex work, interesting cassettes, in the opening scene, I actually even thought of you- know we're not there in the golf club, but man- and I I said if nobody sees this so or if the whole show sucks. At least I could show around the credit sequence. I was sold completely as soon as the show surveys year, rosy, the other music definitely fits and set the right tone. and the rest of the composer, by the way alex lesser renko, is really amazing, he's the same composer from cropsey. So we're really excited to use them. I guess we'll finish up here. Why don't

you let the audience know when they can view this great doc. You series November twelve on any episode. One airs at nine. nine o clock, eastern and then subsequently it'll be aired. The following saturday's thing: at nine or ten. when one episode and ngos to two and then a ghost it too at the same time, interestingly enough will also be doing lot of radio website is radio shows during the speak to bringing in websites third to have relations about what we uncover. So it is really a way for time people to be engaged, yeah and and and really have a kind of interesting, robust experience where there you know, we're talking about whence loose was showing it and then, during the week we get to go on webs loose and talk about what we see,

in and any new leads that may come up during the week. So it's almost like the talking dead that have and after the water had accepted the little more informative yeah, that's interesting, we have to use them. For anyone who is in the new york area. We do have a screening at night hunk on october, twenty fourth as well as its screening, Adam brooklyn law in brooklyn the twenty six a sneak. While there was great to speak with both of you and again it was a great series. I really enjoyed it, especially that first episode is the perfect launched for the series thank you think so much really perceives great talking. You guys and it's great to talk to people who understand exactly we're doing it seems like kind like share some like minded opinions about this, daphne is nodding almost all away

isabel series. Well, thanks guys much appreciated, yeah thinking I began. The. in the late sixteen hundreds the coast of north america, became a hotbed of piracy, but american pirates much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were also

crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies that would eventually become the united states hi, I'm lindsey, grant the hosts of wonders, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans. Our values are struggles and our dream. In our latest series. We take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and reveal that stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain kidd. Listen the age of pirates by following american history, tellers on apple pont, amazon, music or wherever you get your pot casts within one we eagerly and ad free by joining one replace an apple upon casts, or the one rehab