I don't care, I do great just in we're back as we are with gotten ahead honour recordings, and they we forgot to tell everybody that we had a week off so about tat. We re we had a week off now we're back yet just

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calm, slash gaeta BP, Dagmar get word from our answer. You know when you're watching a crime show and your like wait. Did they actually do it. Oh they definitely did way. Well almost definitely, or are you just meant to think they did nope, they totally unless they didn't. If this is you talking to yourself or whoever's, next to you on the couch, we say, keep talking, who are we to judge ready to stream some crime stories? Hulu, it's a crime not to watch while tonight we're gonna talk about a huge case that is hot, and the media right now. What it's a release of her release of a documentary on netflix. This was actually are second episode. We ever recorded right Well right, we did on our second episode cover this case, although it should be, that's a nice were actually record a brand new episode

with even more information, so this technically, though, is sort of one of the inception episodes of the generation. Why and our committee, the staircase is what you said you wanted to talk about as your first topic ever on the generation. Why, without this documentary there wouldn't be in egypt nationwide right. This is one case that will never forget about. It will always be a topic of discussion. as whatever you think about Michael Peterson and how his wife, lean died, there, are so many things that you are here. So we are again, talking about it and hopefully, enjoy discussion and learn something from it and I think we might. A different opinion than when we did this six

almost seven years ago, but I actually didn't go back and we listen our original episode. So I just wanted to go fresh all new perspective, Where do we start with this one moment? by talking about the people that the centre of this case and they would be Michael Peter sin and his wife, kathleen atwater petersen kathleen was born in a fifty three in. carolina, but she grew up pennsylvania. She was very logic, aided she was too in college level, latin classes in high school. She mooted durham thereafter line to attend duke university, some said that she was the first female student accepted into that schools engineering programme. She would earn her bachelor of science degree and my stars and mechanical engineering kathleen married fred atwater, and they had one child caitlin, but they later divorced

Michael Petersen was born tennessee the son of australian immigrants, his dad name eugene Iver petersen, but he has a nickname and it's a big under from down under his moms It was Elinor, but yeah. How do you follow in eugene's footsteps, with a nickname like that? I dont know. Michael Peterson, graduated from duke he had a bachelor ray and political science, and he was also the editor of the chronicle, which was a daily student newspaper in the mid sixties. Here so two classes at the law school at the university of north carolina at chapel hill and upon graduating. He took a civilian job with the: u S, department of defense and he was a I too researched arguments supporting increase military involvement in vietnam, his first wife. Name patricia sue. She was an l

entry school teacher on the rhine, main air base in west germany and had two children together, clayton and todd Nineteen sixty eight Michael peterson. Enlisted in the marine corps and he, sir in vietnam. And in seventy one receives an honourable discharge with the rank of captain after He was injured in a car accident that left him with a minute: disability, Michael patricia divorced in nineteen eighty seven, his boys lived with his ex wife and Michael move to durham north carolina. His sons would later move in with their dad Michael some became an author and wrote books that much all revolved around the vietnam war. Then he ended working as a newspaper columnist for the durham Harold, sun and it was these columns that I guess put him in that os hairs of some powerful people in that city

He wasn't too kind to some of these state officials, he was very critical of prosecutor. and what not so sort of an opinion peace. He would write up what he thought about what is going on and while he had a lot of problems with the police in that town, as well as the district attorney, and who was that The district attorney's name was James. Harden junior, keep note of that cause he's come into play later Ninety. Ninety: to me, oh peterson's in love again, and he and his son heart kathleen by fourteen room home on cedar street five years later that they get married and They have a family and its kathleen, our caitlin and michaels. two boys justin talking about this case, because at some point as ten,

the happened in cases that we discuss something terrible happens. This is december, eighth, two thousand and one this The whole point of this podcast is to deconstruct an event. That's semi questionable. We have a questionable night with Michael Petersen and his wife kathleen where they are our poor. side. Having wine kathleen decide she's gonna call it a night or she has a phone. how to make its about fifty five degrees outside and its nighttime? It's not like it, snow on the ground or anything. That's a little cool out and according to Michael computer, he hangs outside for at least forty five minutes the kathleen peters ngos inside right kathleen has a call with coworker around eleven o clock. she's waiting for an email, it's something to do with her business,

she is going on in the morning thanks I'd, be at work at ten, a m yeah, and so because there's. An email and whatnot. She runs upstairs to use Michael's computer which normally she doesn't according to some. She doesn't uses computer, she doesn't go into his office because it is, but she did it on this- because it was just easier. check your email and do this phone call right from there and mike Peterson said he has a smoke while she's inside at some point, He goes inside the house in this is some time around two thirty in the morning, and when he goes inside the house, quiet, and he finds Kathleen Lange at the foot of the stairs in this dare case leading up to his office in a pool of blood and is not just a poor blood. It's kind of a gore fast and

He is very shocked by this and calls nine one one. There's blood all over the wall around her: it's not just a pool blood. It's not just a little bit spatter on one wall. It is everywhere it's not really clear exactly when she goes into the house and. depending on how you take what Michael Petersen says, this could have been some time between twelve thirty, two one thirty or or even between one forty five in two in the morning, so Maybe that's because he's chilling out by the pool relaxing drinking having a smoke he's not exact checking, is watching his his wife it goes into the house. That's what he knows so this is kind of a guesstimate. I guess, but we know that the now comes in close to midnight. We can least use that as some sort of gauge

for when we know she goes into the house. But his far coming back out and then coming back again. We d have a clear picture. but we know at least before midnight. She goes into the house. The in that sense it to her. Her name is Helen thee, email came in, I think around eleven forty five it was never opened, it was basically Blank email with an attachment was you're, a powerpoint attachment and this email was never read and Helen. was a coworker appear at nor tell the phone company and we he talked about caffeine, said cation. She was making close to a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year at this job. That's like director, vp level, you upper management level at a phone company. Michael Petersen called nine one, one at tooth one a m, and he was reporting an accident

and he said his wife was still breathing at that point- operator asked him what kind of accident and Michael said she down the stairs she still breathing. Please come You ve seen the documentary or, if you ve heard this phone call you, make your own determination on how believable he sounds. I have I numerous articles that shreck This nine, when one call part and say how guilty is the face of it. When I hear it I hear and that sounds very concerned. I don't hear any deception, really his voice- and I dont really much stock and nine one one calls anymore and how but he sounds because we have on record people that have called nine one wanna get every single detail wrong. Yet there innocent and we have others that are key calm, sound totally believable and their one two percent guilty

don't listen to his call and find anything that deceiving myself. What do you think her? I think its useful just the point of reference he's going to forty one to report that his I've had a terrible accident for me this just darts everything right here. So it's a point of reference and They do an autopsy toxicology test. What have you they can start compare things with this time. Absolute. he's basically saying that she went in and then later he went in, and this is how he found her he calls soon after he gets off the line, to then say that is it is no longer breathing. So the situations gotten worse and he's calling saying hey, you need to get her sooner she's not breathing any longer, and he It really is sign off that call. He just of goes away at two forty eight in the morning, a paramedics show up and they find

kathleen peterson dead at the bottom of the stairs they have, some observations that they make when they show up one is there's a lot of blood, I only go in a. We never talk about the the blood. details per se, but it means something in this case And anyone who knows anything about it knows that They also notice that a lot of the blood appears dry, meaning it's been there for a while. So doesn't really dictate a fresh fall or afresh accident its happened a while ago, Michael called his son todd. and he shows up according to talk just after the ambulance and im, tease, And he sees what's going on here, but it's not intel three, twenty four, a m that investigators starts securing the scene and not allowing movement through the house, so

can imagine a view, bloody, seen multiple people went around doing things it can contained crime scene some of the things that happened were Michael, went over to his wife, And embraced her, her into his arms, which as we know if something weapons you're, not supposed to touch the person whose whose down, because you could be contaminating the crime scene or it's a crime scene. injuring them further, unless the nine on one operator said do pr it's one of those things where I can understand him embracing his wife is had a major accident. What was known at the time that she was dead at least This case she had already passed and his distraught? Also, Todd went to the kitchen and apparently tracks and blood in there. He also moved his dad over to a couch and that tracks blood over there.

The bloody seem like that people moving around. Also you had neighbours showing up and coming into the house. This something like what happened in the germany ramsay case, where, if you don't down the scene people moving around and you don't know what they have changed, you dont know if their blood, footprints are going off to go clean up or if it was something innocent like they're just moving over to the couch how'd. You interpret these footprints. It's really blood on a counter. Did it come from todd going in there and getting a drink or Michael petersen in there, that's really difficult to say now between forfeit teen at five o clock in the morning: peterson was given the go ahead by by some officer to go up to his office and at five a m Oh Peter calls his attorney. So unless

than three hours he's de calling his lawyer and here his computer doing stuff- doesn't look good right, while an investigation reveal some answers in regard to the computer use so these medics, these police officers, when they get there, they they heard, Word accident right from the outset after when they first get there, maybe spend a horrible accident, a fall down the stairs. as these officers are investigating. It starts look more like murder to them. Bright will ya mean I can't say that anyone knows blood evidence or whatever, but when you just look at the scene with untrained eyes, it looks horrible and it does not look like an axe. How was Michael pearson dressed when they, medics and when the officers awry

wearing shorts and a teacher without shoes. They found his shoes and his socks by his wife, which I guess If you want to give him a pass on this, you could say well, he had tracked through. And you didn't want to track blood around the house, so he took his shoes off. I would be one explanation. I guess there are also white towels mall, had been white, but they result in blood. There Neither head to give her support. Also on the spatter on the wall, it appears that there was a swipe baker. a suave like somebody took one of those towels and wipe the wall. But then there's more spatter, almost on top of that swipe some kind of weird looking so he's, wearing t, shirt and shorts. later on the beer forenoon,

meteorologist, who will determine from a triangulation of weather stations the exact temperature that night, which was fifty? four degrees, so people question why was he wearing a t, shirt and shorts and such cold weather hanging out outside if you care taken to get a word from our new sponsor price line. Do you have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer get, but never they go anywhere. Well, summers? Finally, here it's time to get out of the office or your house and get a change of scenery with price line you can save up to sixty percent on your favor hotels plus, find amazing deals on car rentals, an flights, and when you save money you can explore more. That means more beautiful views and experiences and more poolside fun doesn't matter where you travel zones are out of the office. I always use price line to find the lowest rates out there and you should do a price line. Every trip is a big deal,

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the outside the house on the walkway and blue on the kitchen sink and a couple drops in the hallway up by the ceiling outside of the staircase but again this wasn't a locked down crime scene or anything. We have people rummaging around. Where did these droplets come from? Was it during the accident or the attack, or was it cry contamination. After the fact they find the wine bottle and glasses on the counter these are tested. They come back with. in four Michael petersen, but they don't find any prince from Kathleen. Although some of the prince are, much, and this is something that happens. I mean when grab, something you don't always leave perfect prints, there's no way to move necessarily it though smudges were left by kathleen. They fight a condom that appears to have been used? They had found it

bedroom, they tested, but you don't find any seamen, but we can- Talk about all this evidence, but one other thing they do, is they will analyze the computer to see if there's any honour. As we know, if you have a sir history They will analyze that and of theirs, Anything suggestive of a b das or foul play at all. anything suggesting foul play. They were latch on to that they do find with this. Computer, though, is that there was program used on it to delete a lot of photographs around the day or two of catholic staff. Hundreds of photos were deleted. No, I know that there are programmes that you can schedule to run clean ups, but Usually those are internet, temp files and what not? This doesn't appear to be that this is deleting photos out of normal

directories and not an internet browser history. So it's little odd that this is happening. I guess we should say images, but all you need to know is there were alive of images on this computer that being deleted from for the time that she died and, after so could be. Suspicious would say it is suspicious. I, if my wife had a terrible accident, The images on my computer, my internet history, is actually the last thing I'm gonna. Think of that's not something I would concerned with at that point, it would be my wife, it's about two months Kathleen died that the medical examiner released, her autopsy report, one the things that really stood out about. It was the back of care they skull there. These deep, lacerations, seven of them on her scalp across the back over her head, and you look at that and you

I think how does it happen from a fall down? The stairs really add up fall down. The stairs is what Michael Petersen thought it happened. He didn't say: that's what happened he so this we, he thought must have happened, but these are huge, deep gashes, where literally her skull is exposed and now I know that is somebody falls stairs day can gash there had horribly. Also they can crack their skull. Open does a lot of terrible things that can happen with a fall down the stairs, but the amount. The number of lacerations here is very questionable, because all of the blood is the bottom of the staircase it doesn't start at the top or in the middle or anything it's all at the bottom. So we're thinking How do you hate your head that many times and cause this much damage in such a shortfall? This

examiner states that Kathleen Petersen must have been bludgeoned death cause of death, It sounds like blunt forest trauma or possibly bleeding to death from the wounds. She also says that the neurons in our brain heart flamed or shrivelled, which means there is a lack of oxygen to them, and she says that only happens after two to eight hours of oxygen depletion, so two hours and we go back to Michael sang. Forty five minutes later I went in the house that time ram, at least in the shortest one. Isn't adding up and in the longest one six to eight hours, definitely isn't adding up yeah. It's throwing light doubt on his story in terms of the timeline because of this report, Michael Petersen, is

rested for the murder of his wife and charged with first degree murder. Now, here's where it gets interesting, because my petersen has already talked to his lawyer carry sudden and start building a defence for him and fight a high and lawyer named David rudolf who, has a reputation and where's flashy suits notices, durham north carolina early, two thousands appears like it's late eighties. Early nineties, though, if you watch documentary, I was kind of gear. Link at some of the fashions I saw so when His lawyer, rude off, shows up. He looks out of place lawyer from new york and a thousand dollar suit. He just he sticks I'm just saying that it, it just looks or appears that Michael Petersen, is this rich guy who can hire rich lawyer and

nobody really likes an elite guy like that. I think just watching the documentary and seeing the reaction of people to his go team showing up is a little telling during the pre trial, legal malay that happens between pay, secure and defence. They are doing discovery there. Finding evidence there finding bunch of emails that oh Petersen had printed out corresponding with a male, escort day are arguing these points. There arguing points about the blood evidence and lo and behold, fancy grace gets hold of some of this and is, with it on national news getting some of the points extremely wrong thinking to myself. How is this leaking to the press?

trial, hasn't even officially started yet and Nancy has the information? Just doesn't good, you say, doesn't look good, doesn't look good for who, I think the prosecution in the state, because I will, I believe that the defence would leak this type. information out because it was more prejudicial towards Michael peterson but you're saying that, like you, expect someone hold them accountable if they did do such a thing, I think but maybe we should be talking about is how it looks for Michael Petersen, where this I'll leaking out, and now people are judging him in a big part of This is his by sexual lifestyle homosexual lifestyle, as they keep painting it- and this is because the trial even starts. This is coming out. I think the state, the prosecutor

leak this information and will find out why later when they make other statements, but we don't have proof of that no, no! This is an allegation on my part completely. It's a guess, yeah how is this information leak to the press? You know you got to follow who's going to benefit from this, probably not the judge. No, definitely not the judge, the prosecutor, that will be up against Michael Petersen in his legal team in court. is none other than james. art and junior, which is the same, m attorney that computers and was very critical of in his columns, no conflict of interest there yet and so I mean for me this seemed really odd, because you have this uncut terrible situation between a nuisance bert journalist and then tourney

Now, they're going to be in court together facing off it just seems really odd. There wasn't another attorney around, they could have prosecuted, but I get it's a hype, the case and hardened the guy that takes these, so I a little bit of a problem with it. I think that a chain Then you might have been an order because of the information that was already leaked and the high profile case, the d, a being who he is I'm thinkin make a change of then you might have been an order, but that didn't happen. Let's about some of the stuff to happens at trial. The Prosecution has to come up with a mole The theory of our thing has and why it happened. What do they believe happened in this case? why Kathleen died, while others too motives that they throw out there one is that there in debt kathleen her. had a million Dollar life insurance policy. So

Michael, had motive to murder her to get this pay out to pay off all these debts because they were slowly going more. More underwater. The second motive is kathleen, goes up to his computer. To email, coworker, and she finds the gay images that he has. On his computer. The emails that yet printed out in the drawer soliciting and she finds this infidelity and she in france, him about it. Computers and doesn't like this, and he takes a blow poke fire poker and he beats her over the head with it at the bottom of this. there's the reason why they pick out a blow poke is because another fan remember had gifted everyone. family matching blow pokes and they couldn't find that blow poke the night of the murder or subsequent sir? Is it the house so

assumed hey. That is a lightweight metal instrument that could be used to hit someone strike. Someone over the head, with causing age your tears and rips in the flesh, but not quite heavy enough to cause school fractures on catholics. And of course, if it's not at the house, that means he disposed of it exactly so they go with this is the murder weapon in that Bludgeoned her beat her at the base of the stairs get into the financials real, quick kathleen. is the one making the money appears in apparently hadn't made any money for the last several years. Now, the free loader and the relationship, and he was also spending a lot of money. They were but a high in forty two thousand dollars in debt on their credit cards, and when we talked about this before the podcast, you said what the heck was bending all that money on. He did have subscriptions to lots of different stuff, whether it be why

Subscriptions magazine subscriptions or website subscriptions right, and so she was making close to home- fifty thousand dollars a year. They were living in a home that was valued at more than a million dollars The home was in her name now is and they had a lot of in our view, wanna say assets. If you total up, everything they have. What two million dollars worth of actual worth right but- the problem is theirs. forty, two thousand hours and debt? That's credit card debt by the way, this it isn't just you know: oh they have a home loan or a right car loan. This is straight up credit card debt and then her job nor tell while it and going away necessarily was being threatened because they were doing lay offs here and there the company was exe. And seeing a downturn and She was worried about that. I worked its

and for many many years and every single year with every single re and merger. Now the round, alas- and you always had in the back of your mind, that you're gonna lose your job. Specially upper management because is there a sort of replaceable managers can be a manager anywhere, you know so there's the departments in companies and especially ever management that you're kind of a diamond dozen I could see how this could be a real fear for her and Michael he was we've been emailing his ex wife asking her to do you like a mortgage on her house? So she could pull like thirty thousand dollars to help pay off his sons, student loans, his sons both were carrying a lot of debt, and it's interesting because there's an email about this to patty- Ex wife and he's explaining that she could get Thirty thousand dollars to help out, because

of his sons were basically underwater. Their bill were higher than the amount they had coming in so end, there he says he can't talk to kathleen about this. The things he also says is that one of his sons has a five hundred dollars a month car payment. When you add up cost of school- the cost still just feeding yourself, then not making a lot of money. he's trying to help them out. One it does show as these concerned by it he's also expressing that he's hoping that they can get out of the debt and move on all the while, he has a lot of debt. There is alive Question about this, because people will say wolf their work, two million dollars. Then why would a hundred forty two thousand dollars in credit card debt? Be a problem because the lose your house and all your material possessions paid off. That's that's why it's problem and if he's not making any money and he's the big spend in this relationship and Kathleen, doesn't like that there is the problem

It has to be a tough letter to write, contacting or ex wife, seeing if show about your kids, on the other hand, he's doing what he s too, for his kids. I guess, and I dont know if the debt The money? I don't know how much we I put on that as a motive. I absolutely think it is a motive or can be a motive, but there's somebody p, well that live in debt. So many people that live on credit. I can just say: oh you're in debt, you could have killed somebody. I just I can't make that leap, but it definitely is emotive and if she possibly going to lose her job, which was a real possibility. Then they can't stand that house. and he loved that house they're, lose their lifestyle right so but, on the other hand, if she were to dine, he can collect on the insurance, then he sat life is good he's in the short term. He would have the money now, let's go the second motive, he is bisexual

he was looking for a male companion to her sexual relations with outside of the marriage according to I call it was the I I don't know how a better way to put this but sort of a don't ask, don't tell understanding that he did this the rest of the family does. This kind of a shocker to them. They had no idea. So, if kathleen didn't know, about this. This is going to be an argument is going to be a fight. This is going to be a separation. This is to be a divorce and she did know about it, then yeah you get to throw the motive out. It's a real question. because on one hand people said, while she didn't go into his office, she didn't uses computer. So if he had pronounced, of emails with an escort or images on his computer? Maybe he didn't spectra to ever see those things I'm just is that a printed out as emails and had him in folders drawer. Like I mean I get it, I get wiping

print out emails because you want a reference it you want to write on it, but the, this kind of emails really it is odd and also when he would make all to this escort he used home phone here, it's not like he tried to hide it really. I mean she could look, their phone bill and figure out This is an odd number, maybe or amusing like it says gay esquire, isn't it right so maybe He doesn't need to hide it as long as she's not around when he's calling of hiding in plain sight is definitely an option or she knows about it. But it's hard to tell. I think that, him getting a cell phone to make these cause that's another bill, so they can't really afford that so- how else is going to call well he's hiding it just assume he would go down the street and use a pay phone or something like that, but I think he's too lazy this,

escort was going to be in town, and so they were supposed to meet up on a certain day. Never happened because escort decided ere. I don't feel up to it and in the actual emails to brad Michael Petersen actually says: I'm married happily to my wife- and this is purely sex, like he'd, makes it very clear that he's happily married, so it sort of weird when that comes up and trial, because their reading these emails, which their trying paint as infidelity yet in the emails he sang, I'm happily married, so not a bad marriage cause even telling this guy he's happily married That's what it says in the email, so it doesn't exactly work for them in court. Well, here's my First problem I have with the prosecution. Actually, there all the emails and

considered admissible and on one hundred percent on board with because they were found during a a search of the home. The information on the computer get, is admissible. I think it does show a motive. Possibly they give to the jury. The jury is allowed to read. all of those emails print out, there's hundreds of them day, in brad in two Try to verify that brad as a real person and that him Michael had talked corresponded. And were planning on meeting brad's. I guess they asked brad. What do you supply to your clients, unease his companionship and then they say is adding We saxony says yes, and then they say what kind of sex and brad is sort of caught off guard. Can I say yes, he says,

anal sex there? Really pandering to anyone, that's homophobic? At that point, I think they establish their point with the emails I think they establish their point bringing brad on the stand. But to literally get that graphic to me is totally uncalled for And the only reason to do that is to pay. you're too somebody that's homophobic or bigoted. Yet the way you get people aligned against another person is to paint that other person is someone who's different, now they already sort of done that with all the emails and even bring brad on the stand, but now there s for information that just seems unnecessary and, like you said probably will, if there's on the jury. Who does discriminate. This will just get them against Michael Petersen. I just think that you have enough evidence you're proving your case with go evidence are proving it with circumstantial evidence you don't

after use prejudice to go after somebody and that's when at least the state lost me in their tactics that they use doing this case I mean just one of the things that work for them is they pointed out there years earlier way. Oh Petersen ran for mayor. He had some claims that turned out to be not true. He said he had gotten a silver star, a bronze star, valor and to purple hearts, and he said, documentation to prove this by it his stories about how he was wounded vietnam, in and all this. It turns out that this wasn't true yet he hadn't one all those metals, he hadn't been wounded, shrapnel are in combat. None of that was true. He was essentially You know, exaggerating his military career to sound like a bad ass

We don't mention that he had had an accident and that's actually how you'd gotten injured it had nothing to do with getting shrapnel, but this could be achieved on because shows you the liar. If he's willing to lie about that, but will they that against him in his trial. That's a whole different thing, but let's go back to the the crime sorry a graphic that we're gonna be talking about blood here and they buy in a blood analysis spatter analysis. Guy named dwayne deeper, he will do pray much reenactments. He will hit a bloody sponge with the blow poke essentially and create spatter that looks very much like what they find at the bottom of the stairs. He re creates a whole, scenario of how she was beaten, how the spatter was directed at the walls how spouter ended up on the inside of his shorts that night

dwayne will show that you can cause spatter along this wall and then hell even say that there's cast off into the hallway. That's really high up bright eyed. How do you get a blood droplet up by the ceiling? Will that's a cast off is leading to dwayne alot of dwiggins research and testimony will come. Your fire later, but its very compelling at the time of the trial, to see him black blood, oliver wall and oliver himself in a very similar fashion of what you see at the crime scene. Small business owners protect what you ve built with more than thirty cos Michael insurance coverage options, including commercial, otto, general liability and business owners, policies plus get personalized disco for business experience prior insurance and more get it in his little as six minutes at progressive commercial dot, com, progressive,

casualty. Insurance company and affiliates discounts uncovered selections not available in all states are situations. the defence has their own export, its doktor henry lee alot of people that watch or listen to true crime shows have hurt the sky and again I have to make this provision because before the trial, the defence actually had a, I guess- sample, jury or test jury that they present their case to and when Dr Lee was talking about the blood evidence summit test juror said you know a economy the ex broken english and he knows a lot. big words, and I can't stop listening to him in that slake wow, doktor. Lee is very proficient in his field and now, what he's talking about, but again ganum

I'm wondering why are people not into the sky? Is it because of the way he speak? is it because of his race. I dont know, but it doesn't I'm off well hand, he could have worked against Michael Peterson according to doktor Lee he says there too much blood. Because of location where most of the blood is. He thinks it's not so clear. That it was an attack because he would have expected it to look different, but according to him. He believes that this, Spatter is from Kathleen exe selling blood out of her mouth and at trial? He actually puts catch up into his mouth and then blows out, spit it out all over the wall. What would be the wall yeah? He does counter a lot of what dwayne says like the droplet in the hallway he says: that's not cast off, because a cast off

is a series of droplets. Not one is: are you can't Hey something's a cast off pattern. You know like you're, hitting someone with the metal bar you swing back up for the next round, cas off a line of blood, he says you can't determine that from one droplet tactic, the kind of tears dwiggins whole analysis up during trial, and there are more to buy books and analysis that go against what dwayne says, but dwayne has is videos in his tasks and his experiments and he's very very persuasive, doing and had submitted. All his task and experiments to the prosecution, and then, when it presented and trial Michael peter defence team says what what that again about this is Duane's. Test results and the defences like. Can we get

Copy of that so a problem here where the blood analysis, which is literally the main point of why Michael Petersen is being tried, hasn't been supply, to the defence and it's just egg whoops e, sorry about that, and it's not even addressed at all by the judge or anybody, but the defence. came feels like they ve been blindsided now and then To literally look at this evidence, give it to Lee all at the last minute. Really, in essence, what the debate is is the prosecution is saying they Kathleen was beaten to death. And the defence is saying it was an accident. She fell down. The stairs but they're, not even saying she fell all the way down the stairs there say that she was coming in. There was going up and then fell backwards, possibly because she was drinking yeah. She had alcohol in her blood system and she was wearing football Now what

alcohol level did she have is below what would be considered over the legal limit yeah, I think so point: zero. Seven. She was we're whiners, yeah yeah, so had? Obviously, some alcohol one or two glasses of wine? by their saying because she was wearing foot flops and she done some drinking and it was late that she fell backwards and then that's how it all started Do a recreation where she falls back hits her head on the. I guess. The dog or frame leading into the staircase and then falls down hits her head again proceed, to try to stand up and slips and falls again thus creating multiple lacerations on her head. I'm look. Yet the recreation and just shaking my head like I mean The walls and and stares made out of razor

aids and knives lake. I don't see this happen. Now again. I know you can mess yourself up, but the bad fall down the stairs The amount is just really to get over here things are struck, me was. If she was drinking, then pie simply her bloodstained out and surely more now, that's true and its thinned out my drive faster too. the prosecution of course- and I I'll say this- I think that their whole recreation how they say she fell his terrible. It's it's almost laughable. I would. I would agree, I dont understand how, anyway sees that actually thinks it's possible lee seem to be very careful with his wording when talking about the blood evidence in framing it as an accident. I guess I feel like he's is very careful with his wording. add most of the cross examination of lee talks about how he approved.

Dwayne because he autographed a book, today in and unlike really, that's it crediting Lee is he's signed, a book saying egg, but the good work dwayne you I have signed my autograph for somebody and then they turn out to be a terrible person. You're going to say: oh we'll just thought they were a good person. He signed his autograph, I just it a really weak point that they make in the documentary again, it's the document, can be a little bias and showing what they want to show by the prestige Does show why this isn't a simple fall down the stairs, because catholic had bruising on the tops of her arms and on her face, and she even has damaged cartilage in her neck. There recreation of her fall. They have her hitting her neck on one of the steps centrally so be It seems that most who of reviewed this car legendary say it's indicative of

strangulation yeah? That's from the autopsy results and what not it's not is clear. It just seems like such a small all bruising such a minute damage to the college that I'm wishy washy on that. But how do you get an injury. Their falling down. The stairs we stood out to me mostly was the bruising now because, if she's only backward, then why She had bruising on the tops of her arms and on her face when she's falling backward in their recreation yeah. The the injury she has are just so random for a fall down the stairs In most cases, not necessarily this one, but in most cases when someone has injuries to their arms and their face, it's because their being attacked the d. Of wounds you're blocking yourself you're, putting her arms up and you're getting hit there? What they don't find out

similar bruises on her lower extremities, meaning you would think if she felt on the stairs that she would have been paid. up in the legs or something, but they don't see that the other. Piece of evidence. That shows that I would say that she was attacked is there. a bloody shoe print on the back of her pants may, by michael beer since shoe this, really isn't addressed by the defence. It's one the things where is she found laying on her back slumped on the stairs there's no reason for a footprint to be on the back of her leg. even if he did embrace her just doesn't add up, so you have to sort of assumed that the body was moved or something more in a we said how the crime scene wasn't locked down for a while, they did use luminal in the house. They found bare feet going from

where Kathleen was to the kitchen and to the sink so Michael Petersen comes in. He find His wife has had this terrible accident, any ex off issues in his socks and he walks to the sink in the kitchen? I dont understand: I don't understand it either, but it happened, but it has rightly You can't say it might have been taught it might have been this person. I know he. The only one who had his socks and choose off. I guess I only explanation is oh. It was really bloody scene and he didn't want to track blood to the house. Now you can use whatever logic you want on. Does he disliked keep a clean house, or was he not trying to blood everywhere cause it's a murder scene. I dont think he's being careful in that regard, because he went and embraced. His wife it's not like he's trying to be careful this? is more a suggestive of a clean up,

so when you add in the towel and there are some smears also people saw him working on the front of his shorts, trying to spain off, so it's very suspicious and at trial. Here, between the blood, spatter analysis and the shoe print and the questions about infidelity or his your preferences. There was a lot working against Michael petersen in this trial, but This is an where it ends no, and in just I want a pause quick on the clean up aspect of this there was what appeared to be swipe. on the wall and a step were somebody wiped the blue and then there was additional spatter almost as if oh she's dead, clean up the crime scene. Oh she's dead, additional spatter. It doesn't look good, yet the defence team,

we'll show pictures that law enforcement took up the scene anymore, pitcher. You have large droplets of blood the wall and then another picture it looks like they ve been wiped away and the defence teams, like the scene, was locked down the only people, that were involved here now our law enforcement. So why does this look different way? these two droplets, a blood appear to have been wiped were passed over something you know, pure less, then and I don't have an explanation for this, but it's obvious that law enforcement was involved at that point. and so did they inadvertently Cause these swipes today have any, the do with what looks like a clean up of the scene, This suggestion that may be some was trying to set him up to make em look worse from what I till they were more or less suggesting that any evidence of clean up, while the

since been tainted by law enforcement. So you can't say that he cleaned anything up or this was intentional or whatever they didn't go extreme with it. They just work trying to say: hey, there's what appears to be clean up here, but that doesn't explain a bloody foot. Printers bloody- print on the back relay that doesn't explain, footsteps to the kitchen. It doesn't exist. Laying a droplet outside doesn't explain other places where blood is found, so we reach the end of part one, because we pretty long with this episode, writer yeah. We we realize, you want to stay here for two hours straight, so we split the two upset so you're going to hear our opinions and what not, on the second one, don't, leave us, hang it and don't skip the second episode you gotta here too, the final resolution here party will be out next week. We like to think love for sponsoring today's episode. Third love

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