« The Generation Why Podcast

Harold Henthorn - 223

2017-03-05
Harold Henthorn. September 29, 2012. Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado. A man surprised his wife with a meticulously planned hiking trip in Rocky Mountain National Park for their 12th wedding anniversary. The weather was calm and the views were amazing. Tragedy would strike after his wife, Toni, fell from a cliff. Due to their remote location and the lack of light, rescuers arrived too late to save her. An investigation quickly focused on the husband, Harold Henthorn. The FBI believed that this was probably no accident. Adding to his guilt was the mysterious death of Harold's first wife, Sandra. She was killed when the suv she was under fell on her. She had been out with Harold that night for a drive one evening when he said one of the tires felt mushy and needed to be changed. Also common to both wives were the life insurance policies that Harold had taken out on them. Policies worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. Did Harold murder his wives for the money? Or is he just very unlucky? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I guess doing good just now, you all right, patriarch is and going full bore, so go out there and check it out. It's wonderful and just told me what his next idea for our premium episode is. I was fascinated fur ten minutes while he explained the case to me just now, so it'll be good, but
No, that's gonna, be here next premium or not, but we're talking about what do you figure premium. Episodes are pretty special because typically justin and I take turns picking the cases. So they just in shows poured arthur. I those kelly, thomas bake, a kind of goes back and forth I just came up with josephine counting. I want one which, if you don't have that one if you haven't purchase that one You need to go out and get it it'll scare you in a way that you just didn't know as possible. It's it's almost like the m, the per just imagine just a lawless time. There's no one there to save you, that's what josephine counting I won't. One is about being attacked and no is coming. Are we gonna end up put gnarled episodes out there on patriot, eventually cassettes what we keep get nasty? yeah there's a little trick with that, which is we have a number of premium episodes out there right now and
our people that have paid to get was episodes I think we've only had one or two people say this, but some people might be a little upset if they ve had to go gotten purchase those thousand and now there patriotic and they're paying two dollars there get an episode they ve already gotten. I think the com My myself would be to put out a new premium episode, but maybe bundle it with one of our old ones and then just do that and through attrition. In time, people will have our old back catalogue of premiums. I think that's a compromise, will hear from you guys and will find out what the best answer is good. I want everyone to hear the Josephine county in the kelly, thomas and all those old opposite when it comes down to it. If you have joined patriarch and you're, paying two dollars a month eventually will have paid for those episodes anyway. So I don't really think it's unfair to add them so
write to us. Let us now or maybe will throw went in at some point and will see with the reaction is europe. Yet I can only ever talk at the beginning of episodes earned. So I thought maybe we'll talk just a little bit. Would you have enough Michael Petersen. Did he making a plea as we covered the Michael petersen case episode number two long long time ago, yeah that's ancient history. At this point it was in two thousand and twelve and it seems as though the state is conceding that they either spent enough money. Or that their cases weaker than they ve let on through an hour. four plea, Michael Petersen, has walked. He's now a free man now here won't be retried or any of this stuff. I know he's been in and out of prison a few times so yeah That's a done deal now. I think, with the keenness of the case, I think justice
kind of prevailed. I dont know, It's a weird one, because if he's innocent, then he shouldn't have gone through all that if he's guilty, while he was but through hell, I don't know, he spent enough time if you actually guilty, but the price. seclusions case? against him? Wasn't that solid? So I guess it equals in some realm and the universe somewhere yeah think the general consensus is, is that Petersen had a lot of suspicious activity, but when it came down to it the prosecutions theory of how the murder went down just doesn't work now I think that's what we're left with is. We have a specious man who I mean were honest about it. He seems like the best suspect, but on the other hand, the prosecution siri of what happened doesn't really make sense, the nine the reconstructions totally wrong yeah, and if you look at again, you can go back and listen to the old episode, but
the wounds to Kathleen Peterson either laws by falling down and hitting her head on the stairs you can, look up such injuries online and, and they will look very similar to hers or was attacked by an owl, and there are many people who love the owl theory. Michael peterson's, own defence, team, hates the owl theory. They think it's preposterous and me people will say that, but I think this idea that an owl could do that good cause her to die. Just something that you hear about freak accidents. I think our minds are more open to these possibilities. Now that we ve heard it all by Listening to all these different to crime stories and reading up on them. We ve heard some crazy things, and so an owl for some of us is not that crazy, but when it comes down to it computers, petersen walks, and this
had its chance to go after him again and they chose not to know what's the price of justice here exactly what the head wounds. There's always a lot of blood so Even the smallest scraper cut can make you lead profusely and she did. We she was pushed down the stairs or an owl was tearing into her head. You have two different factors. There Yeah reminds me of the episode we put out not that long ago, the death of Cathy winkler her husband mark persecution did not very good job of trying to explain the theory and that one as well and so on give you look about these cases in a different light. With wrangler being well too run the furnace a certain way to cause the carbon monoxide levels to go up. and then you look at Michael petersen who could have just constantly shoved his wife down the stairs
maybe even just a couple of times, could have caused a major injuries, to her at which would explain all the bleeding. but instead the prosecution felt like he needed a weapon. That's just read nicholas, he doesn't need a weapon, they never found one and when they did locate the fireplace broker, as we know it. dusty. It had never been used just the wounds on her head were not made from striking. So there is that That pursued is another husband who is accused of murder his wife in, but he claims it was a freak accident. So well, talking about the matter, tonight, we're talking about a man by the name of harold and thorn. A summary of this case is on, september twenty ninth, two thousand twelve harold his wife tony went to rocky mountain national park to celebrate their twelve wedding anniversary. They said
before two p m and plan to hike along the dear mountain trail. The trail is about six miles long and it's a loop I'll sometime later, Harold will call nine will wonder report that his wife had fallen from a cliff and needed alpine rescue when her Finally arrived hours later, tony dead here Ten thorn would be arrested for the murder of his wife two years later, who tony and who was Harold. Tony was tony blair, delay and she was the middle child, her old, and younger siblings were brothers, burying and taught there. The older todd is the younger they say because of this dynamic that she his in sports. A lot but their brothers one of them remarked that they were going to play barbies with her. It turns that she didn't just play sports because he was forced to it. They say
He was pretty good at it and in high school she play basketball. She was an egg on student. She went on college. Family had oil and gas investments and later on in life, when she would mean arrow, should be collecting money from those investments on a monthly basis anywhere from two thousand dollars up to twenty thousand dollars very well off- but that's not all she did. She was very sick As for women and a career, women too right Yes, in jackson, mississippi she was an ophthalmologist and known for dispute. In a wonderful doctor who, when she saw her patience she really got to know them great them by name she knew their families were and just everyone at ease, all the ladys at the office that she worked with their loved. Her they'll got along very well and they all knew each other's business too, so
very much involved in each other's lives. Now her life, kind of changes a bit because she and her first husband drift. Apart from what I understand there is not really animosity there. They grew part he would find love again, but tony she was busy define love is a career woman. She's doing all this stuff is busy. She's got stuck on. Now, since she isn't just meeting some one, whether its at church or the grocery store wherever she signs up. a christian, dating site, on their, she meets a man by the name of Harold hen thorn, he raise funds, for charities and nonprofits and he would meet with potential donors for it? spawns and go on business trips and whatnot, or not never met anyone. That does that myself, but he seems like a respectable guy who wears a suit.
He's clean cut and is seems very carrying that's his job. What the things that really caused toning and herald the click was that they were both planners. They liked to make sure that things were going to go according to plan. that really brought them together, and I know just in my own. Experiences when you have people who are planners and people who aren't planners aiken cause major problems so totally understand us, they, to conceive and they weren't able to for awhile correct. and then finally, they ended up. She ended up becoming pregnant, with their daughter hayley when she becomes pregnant with her daughter, Harold, very, very excited and, after the birth of Hayley. He is gung ho about being a dad and takes charge. He lets his wife know: hey, go on to work and I'll, take care of everything so like great dad
wants to provide for his child, he wants to protect his child and he talks. pony, and to opening up a life insurance policy now We don't know exactly how the conversation went, but he took it out and her name and said it was going to go to hayley, but here listed as the trusty on that life. Insurance policy that fund after tony and Harold get married takes a little while I think it takes almost two years bed Harold, we'll talk, tony into moving out to denver colorado. whole family lives in mississippi, she's, very close with her brothers and her family? So this is, not the best location for her, but. she'll end up agreeing to it, but though they will either come home for the holidays, or they do those
You know, videos that we used to do a we'd, videotape ourselves and give the family and update then we'd make copies and send those videotapes out every one in the family out enough. You did that, and my family did I always thought it was weird busy our time so she moves out denver and she opens her practice up there well because she's smart, and she's determined. She has a great personality. Her act as thrives? There too? a baby, sitter name katy. Carville? Who would stay at the I was frequently and she served Harold, would leave on thursdays for business trips. Ross took care of Hayley and she said this pretty much was like clockwork every thursday. she'll be there and he would return the next day. They also a friend that state at the home firm between on two months, he's a friend of heralds and he
would talk to herald about his business and how he would have to travel to go and meet with put your clients and donors, whereas fundraising so multiple people, new about his his job in his career and what he did and sometimes you wouldn't say the most. The things about his job, he would say- and others might, this job might not be around to morrow and he wasn't as positive about it, but for the most part, they both felt that it was a loving relationship and he treated her ok, but some of ponies friends. They They thought he was a little creepy in a little controlling and One of them was Tony's receptionists at work, and she knew What tony's schedule was at all times she pretty much control their life. As you know, admin stew,
Harold had asked her to free up her calendar, so they could take this trip. This anniversary, vague and so she knew about it and she knew that tony would be now before it is. She cleared out our calendar. So that's how this comes to light. And the motivation for her to help him is. While it sounds like a very romantic time, the aki mountain national park. It's right! Next! It s this park. I've been up there, it is beautiful. It can be romantic The problem is, then my mind is there with a little older. I don't know Hiking would be really, the deal, but when I was up there. I I went horseback riding, you know, and it's not something I would ever do so. I kind of get it. I think it's like, grand canyon. You go and the view is just so amazing that it makes it worthwhile. So even if you, after
walk for two three four hours. It's going to be worth it but it's not just a hike He has made a reservation at the stanley, which I'm sure some of you remember from the shining and he had dinner reservation at think. Seven o clock. So they were gone on their there. walking or their hike before dinner, but they would make it to dinner. Something would happen right they set off on the trail about one, forty, five and there on dear mountain trail, and it It's about six miles long! It's a loop part of the surprises. Is that he's not going to just stick to the trail. He won tony to go off with them beyond the trail because according to him there
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scenic view. Were there a rocky cliff, they're, gonna wanna, take pictures there of each other and of the scenery, but it's he'll, not private enough. So now he wants to move down to another area which is more treacherous and they do that. Then we get as a nine. When one call he saying that there has been a terrible accident, I'll tell he's actually texting berry who is tony's older brother, who happens to be a doctor, yeah he's a cardiologist beneath asking him near. These tellingham she's fallen fallen off some rocks. What do I need to do very strange column, but he's telling the nine on one operator and he's telling very that his battery is low. So he can't talk on the phone, runs the battery down buddy context. So the only way these people are getting any information out of him,
through text, which That's really limited information really so Harold says that he is worried about the battery charge on his phone. And so he's telling people you. I can't really talk on the phone when he was out there with tony, and this is after the name. When one call he place. Twenty two calls and ninety six text messages. Well, and I'm sure that The ranger and other investigators did not look at his phone to verify if his battery was dead or not at the scene. Cassettes is not something that they were thinking about ever thinking about saving this woman, while normally we would run you through the normal one, call but I think, since we have, it will just play it for you and you can hear Harold in his own words, as he's talking to you talking to the dispatch. You can hear what he's telling them and
you can judge for yourself how sincere he sounds let's address the emergency one of the girls adored time in the marketing network. Okay, I didn't outplay no rescue team immediately, okay, but didn't see your exact location, not exactly if your mountains, the attack from it oh mile about one mile south of the visitor center. Okay, I'm going to transfer you to the park to hang on the line. You'll hear some you're going to hear some clicking, I'm right now, I'm calling up your live near long. Okay, I'm on my phone here. Let me try one more time before I transfer they don't have it at an hour. You sure you don't worry. Outsiders, ok, hang on. We think William. Today. We are at the fast
I have a my wife that you, my wife on the north from it appear mountain. All the year round trail. Really critical condition you got that her through her or the vertically thirty, forty or thirty feet. I'm sure you'll, not ok, really got fell. Coverage no we're not, the regular havoc on the southern outcrop, look from up south from the former, the better work out crop.
I don't want to north korea according to the outcrop that you can be from referee after her we're, probably not even retreat. The was weather cleared up your about dwight freeney about fifty seconds or where a wife, I left, where one degree rubbed what our attitude forty five minutes late, second. I'll get it. We are not on the two large uclaf, the area between them, but in the second part okay. Who am I talking to Oh, how important aren't you with the patient? Yet why I'm here
I already have greater getting ready up their scope here when they re. Looking at your mountain you're. Looking at you out problem this person's between the two yeah, you're fucking, better traffic thought that that itself, alcohol that you are happy birthday. We are not under oath to work with you about your feet off the off the crapper hill, okay, and tell me about something about the patient. if a help wiping off, if your whole great health, he got preparation the promptly fired through a pyramid. Her pulse is about fifty eighty beats a minute: hey, what's remaining injury or head injury, any other injury in toronto, but conscious, breathing, knocking quantity of breeding
They were between five and ten. He he committed now. Okay hold on just a second okay, the urban yeah. He couldn't be working here anyway you could bring a copper in life. The clearing up europe about europe meares, welcome native clearing robin radio or he'll paramedic, though not bill. I probably worked all ok If you want the average, I mean I already have Gary neville. How many will be sure that you know exactly where your purple, because bring her here to take you, at least in our real about their talking to me on the radio technical rock, pointing to have it yet.
we want. Our calling but you're gonna need an alpine, not refugee problem. Hurry now than it for before clearing about what a meters helped me we are on Friday night here, but I your today but I it can get awkward for a helicopter pilot or commercial. It wouldn't matter what metric rack. I bought the wallplate any get off the field right now, I'll be happy if you drop a paramedic failure. I understand that and that would be a ranger. What is good the wherever right now, water, excellent. If at least part a mile and they're definitely not permitted, but if you're walking too, you can safely proper permit a cover.
I can scrub and italy. I understand that, but they definitely need a proper liquid dominant theme. If you have have a team and though the t better than the one up there, that effect on your location or car park at the direction of the report. The effects are getting cheap, but it can be our wolfing hour to get here from the people. They can be long. He can a couple of hours, so we definitely have people that are really fast on the trail and in a very great shape, I can talk me through. How did you get to that location? River to have the warmth and o'clock and not enough to really sleep on the road to cross the delaware river and on your perfect picture taken in hell- and I really didn't have when I came down and you wanted to hear about it. Are you? Are you ready?
Action right at the correct calculator effects are pretty cool? Okay. How the trail do you think she went on without the actual for the pipe click a cup of tea, not not for the little ones fell for the hill, but to look at rick care about your buddy. I tell them off for some it. Ok and now they crept round. There came up the back came up we're here about trail level off, you went much back here, trail returned dripping, look nor can nor went about. Maybe you have ordered yard and there you rich
alcopop, we didn't go through the people in the center of the water wanted the water that we were between the two then do I have to ask you some questions about the topic you think you are wrinkle reduction can pick the color. We were at the peak of the digital weapon, the equal of alcohol. We're not apout career. This battle between the two and we came on down and were grounded the point of rocket blocking the elder and up toward the pig. How are you think you are at the top of the order, the top two hundred feet from the pin. Okay, the deeper they are grown up, philip. How can it happening battery powered agree about what you do is
that our comparative partner. one area which will complete come back here. I will complain about on the whole I want the cooking, referring to the top of the hour I paid thirty seven o'clock, there's no way you'll get but having a bit of walking. Now, if there's any chance, I could persuade you to think about a copper and eleven income, usually in the park at the blower, But I will pay like okay up there, asking you to put it the bright. I got out at the top of the feet. They can't you like glad the area for anybody mirror will talk about
I'm looking at that right now in a battle near the middle of the theater and you're in you're in the pine tree farewell, I drew up at the core I'm telling you now, in view of the better more, are you familiar you're not show her there, and if you got the purple burden, driving the church. I can put it like that. What you told me I've been through. The children are not sure that every act of looking at it might look. Look look back with you. I know
upon what you're young, ok how's? She doing the reporting weaker reparation of weaker by the minute? You know that What do you to do out? How are we built like a climbing all all directly I didn't. I didn't actually have the helping. Ok, yeah like you, I thought you have one lasting and how much battery powered you have on your cell phone, not much power power about abandoning anyone. Another number just in case did you do that you call and yet something the right whether we remember
I want one and they'll check for you back to the op. You got gotta get away, okay, okay, with the police, finding Kelly the help It also and now an illicit, been here. Look here and yet another thing, though I can let you know most of our helicopters or at the back I can't really train you technical type things they do. Let a lamp in certain areas that are difficult, you would not be put off. Cricket would be okay, but they can't like drop somebody out of the helicopter on the roof. The girl that has not been done, the hike or you are going to pull the paper will appear. Political, have a qualified rangers, go ahead, do it get out here and what are you happy but in herald the boy had thought tat. They can t o r n in your way
funny you and I how many other health issues like the notable who are your favorite vehicle killed. You know helping people, okay, now the barrier? Okay. How about we do that? I am gonna, hang up a hill and attack with a regular person paper, alchemy that we need the hang up and you're going to turn off her far enough. I dunno because more battery power turn off turn it back on the road. If you wanna try calling a fake appointment at the time frame. Okay, okay, the work. I work in a paper that any additional information, that will make you calculate how I how I hate the north. I have twenty free minute. Fifteen beckett will be bigger, we're forty latitude calorie free about fifteen seconds for the flood. Okay,
Everything, ok, I love katharine happy three one, five minutes, one five seconds: Well, I have five while five, thirty five thirty five and about twenty seconds. Okay, alright! So we're going to use that as well. He got that from your phone. You pick will not go off shit? You know you're, not a piece of property, Ok, so I'm going APA feel. If you want to leave your heart. That makes you feel better that you that you can call it anything pages with her and I'll call you.
I call that a victory at exactly the very delicate you are. Okay, like I said, I call nine one, one and I'll transfer to over I'll get the picture He said that it took him. Forty five minutes to get to her body from where she fell, and where she landed, it was what one hundred and twenty something feet that she fell? It was more than a hundred twenty twenty feet. it's very treacherous task, get down to where she sat, Annie says he's giving her. Pr, he says he's doing these things they send out breast. As you know, from the call he requests a helicopter and they can't really do that again. because of his location. It's it's so remote at that just drive out to him, so they have to hark on trail in walk, which is about ninety minutes or more?
find him it's not as the others, a trail of bread crumbs there. Literally for once they get out in the general vicinity of worries at they. After look for him and so Harold what to build a fire there tell. empty use, a whistle. to try and help the ranger locate him it takes forever it take a good two hours. or more from the time of the call for the the park ranger to show up and the park. Ranger has empty training and hopeful that, if you can get to her, he can do things to help save her life and he says when he gets there. He sees Harold do Some chest compressions but light is not really keeping up he's, not trying that hard. It's sort of awkward situation. When, when they arrive and they're not sure if Harold
had been doing anything with her body all right when the part ranger shows up He actually sees Harold jump up go over to his wife, and that seems kind of suspicious because he had been sitting away from her yet our ranger. Estonia out, and he can tell that she is she's deceased. That may, the chest campaign, and thing even more awkward, because not a mystery. She is actually dead. They tell her old You can go bad, either He once control. I think he wants to stay. He wants to watch, he wants to see. What's going on there, spidey senses census of tingling. At this point, the other problem with it is hark ranger sees what kinds of injuries that Tonia sustained. and one of them is a nasty gash our head. If you have had an if you have had a head injury that you to keep your head elevated.
And since Harold had told the park ranger that he had to move her to me, even ground more level ground it was given into the park ranger, because when he appeared stir the ground was kind of slanted and her head was down it. What she should have been turned. The other way is his observation because of the head injury her We were actually elevated above her head. He also made comment that it looks like she fell forward face first, but later, thompson pathology, Reports will not be able to determine which way she actually fell, but just from observation: he thought it was a forward fall This will matter because this park ranger will be one of the investigators as well, but since its federal land, the fbi also gets involved.
of harold are anticipated that but what is his first statement about how This fall happened while one of the first people that he talk to you about this is he talks to bury. which is tony's older brother. The cardiologist he tells bury that she was kind of lagging behind him, so their walking on the trail point he looks back and she's gone. Of course, he's looking for her and ass. He looked over the cliff, that's when he sees her body, but he does el the park ranger that he tells bury that park ranger. He tells him that she was taking a phone. of him. Mikey took up of her in front of the cliff then gave her the camera and then she was going to take a photo of him, but they weren't, so in places her back was to the cliff. She was too follow him and she slipped. Then he'll say that she A phone call
and he was messing with his phone replying to it text or something and he saw blur and she was gone He tells tied her younger brother there he had received a text about their daughter hayley. We looked up. She was gone, then he'll say she a phone call. She handed him her phone was checking to see the off the office had called her on her phone. that's when she slept and fell so. All of them revolve around her slipping and falling down the cliff, but you can see that there are greatly different details and each one of these and The really telling part is- Tony didn't have a phone on her. She left it back at the office He was on vacation in her. workers knew tat her phone. Was in her drawer at her desk They knew that it wasn't on her.
So. These last two statements of she a phone call her. She got attacks or he had her phone arc plainly made up: that's what me. Thinking whoa wait a second I mean I, I understand horror. Accident can happen, but we got four a different versions of the story, two of which absolutely cannot be vetted because there they are lies once he finds out that he did not have a phone on her. He calls office and realises that the phone is there, first thing Monday morning, when the off opens up. He is or to retrieve tony's phone the reasons he gives arm shaky at best. He says that he needs it, because he needs to know who's called. He needs it because there pictures of his daughter on there, but the fact that is wife is dead and the phone is the
top priority to him. His it's just a little weird the family would take notice that five days after the accident is her funeral, it's very quick. Now I get it. In a time of tragedy, we weaken get ourselves, together and make things how but he had very elaborate. Funeral pyre for her and they They found that a little odd that he had flowers picked out all these things for a funeral for us. wife that had just died. Just it seemed to them that most husbands would be dead, the stated and and think that They might need help planning the funeral. They might do this together, The family wanted to bring tony's body home, backed mississippi and bury her. But He would not allow that Harold I would say, he's gonna have her. Cremated
He would do this with or without the families consent, and he would sprinkle her ashes on a mountain, because He said it was her favorite mountain on november. Fourth, two thousand fourteen. Harold hand thorn is arrested. If you up on this case. This is one of those I she could say interesting moments because he's arrested on the very day of tone. Parents wedding anniversary. You would think that If this was a terrible accident, every they would be antoni side and worrying about him, but the family didn't have quite that reaction. They really wondered what was going on. They suspected him. This spected that he hurt her in some way the brother Older brother bury really blamed himself for the whole incident has he's the big brother. You know big brothers, look out further little sister
even if there are older, they always do they started questioning because it turns tony pretty bad knees. She wouldn't go king. Typically, she wouldn't go on long walks. She would do a lot of physical activity because she had bad knees, and if anyone out there has bad news, you know this pain. It's annoying doll, pain that doesn't go away. Her coworker is absolutely knew her ailments even though the woman that cleared her schedule thought that's a little weird that he's taking her on a hike win, that's Probably not what she wants to do. I would Take my wife on a hike. She wouldn't be ended that and I look here at this situation and I think, I think it's obvious that tony wasn't into the outdoors. She couldn't law
long distances either a heralds just doing what he wants to do and bring in our along more. B, he really fine, sir. He thinks it's as if this is gonna, be a romantic, get away and she'll love this obviously she was game for birds I think she I mean it's obvious. She had no planning in this and this probably wouldn't have been what she would have wanted to do on their twelve year anniversary. what we talked about, how suspicious it was then he had all these different versions of what happened when investigators start talking due to people that with her they started, seeing pattern of Tony doesn't want to go home right away. She staying laid, but she's not really working on anything. and I feel as though.
maybe she's, not quite so happy they all felt like Harold was creed, to their very outspoken about that now, mina some then can come off creepy in I get that, but they did not care for him, but tony was to him, so they accept them. she wouldn't go home at night. She just sit around in place. Walter, tell something. They said that she would play games on the computer and stay late. in mind that she has a daughter who at the time is about seven years old. But let's say for the sake of argument that Harold That is not the nicest guy. You can imagine that if he tells her to do something, she might have to do it, and this is something that came up with the family. They said that they would to her and tried ask her questions. She, I really want to talk about her marriage not with her family and now other friends? Also
Every year when they would meet or hang out for the holidays they said it was very apparent that Harold would do all planning and he had to be involved in all the conversations and they would be all up in everyone's business, because he just needed that control They also slept indifferent rooms, tony with leap in the master, bedroom and Harold slept in another bedroom at their house. We know because the baby sitter katy carville, said she would watch hayley, go to another room to wake Harold up friend, would also witness multiple witnesses. He threatened tony with a divorce, if she were to tell her family, something or whatever, The financial argument was about reported that he would threaten her with divorce. Something else comes up that there is a accident happened the
parents and in other family members we'll talk about it. accident happened prior on, Twenty eight twenty eleven tony was at home and world asked her to come outside and ass. She did. She was here, in the back of the neck with by a twenty foot board like a beam Harold was working with tony will say that she saw something on the ground and she bent over to pick it up, and that's when she was hit. I'll say that she was lucky because and she would have been standing the boy probably would have hit her in the head and not in the back of the neck ones, boards struck. Her actually fracture her spinal cord and immediately shall suffer numbness in her hands and her body should have pretty serious brand occasions from this accident. Harold war played off
like it was an accident and was no big deal in doesn't say much about it. He doesn't like talk about it while he does- and he does say at one point- remit that time when I almost killed tony, what a great What a great comment something the family knew about was. Harold was previously married, to a woman name Sandra Berlin will be calling her lynn from here on our as I was when she went by. He told tee honey, that he had been married, but his wife had passed away and talk much about it and she didn't like to press it too hard, the story tony tells Friends is that Harold was a terrible car accident with his wife, he died during that accident. Now this story. Wool changes I'll bet, ah, His friend will say that
story she heard was Harold, took lindau, for a nice. Romantic dinner on the way home after dinner, they will get flat, tire anymore, pull over the side of the road led we'll get out, go to the beach either the vehicle cycle. Cheap charity in and pop the hatch, the hatch back, and the door will hit her in the head strike her in killer and a fluke accident. That's what he tells her, now he'll tell other members of the family and other friends that it was two car accident and he fell asleep. In the car and lynne was driving and he feels like it's his fall because he should have been awake, so car accident other people- something a little bit more closer to the truth, which is bad. attire, they pulled over and be car. Fell off the jack and crushed her
How did this really go down there and because already. We got three two versions of a story: yeah Harold went for a drive with sandra lynne on route sixty seven and according to Harold. The tyre and the front felt mushy. So he pulled off the road and needed to change it so wasn't even a flat tire. It was just soft low with their ok, we're not sure why he feels the tyre needs changing by it here as the pull off- and this is in the evening the next thing we know is that he's out there trying to flag down other vehicles, he gets people to stop. Some people are curious. They want to help when they start in a poor light, out from underneath the vehicle that she's trapped under, He starts getting upset, don't huh don't touch her body but their helping their law
thing the vehicle up off of her in dragging out from underneath it. I would assume that that would be the natural instinct sandra Lynn died of his fixation it's a horrible way to die the view. cause about a thousand pounds and its sitting on her? So the Roeder falls on onto her back my cuts into her and his crusher after years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by big wireless providers. If we ve learned anything it sat, there is always a catch. So when I first heard that mid mobile offers premium wireless starting at just fifteen bucks a month, I thought what's the catch, but after talking to them, it all made sense. There isn't. One made mobile secret sauce is at their the first company to sell wireless service online. Only they cut,
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if casualty, insurance company in affiliates national annual average insurance savings by new customer surveyed who saved with progressive between June twenty twenty and may twenty twenty one potential savings, will very discounts very and are not available in all states, and situations We ve already detailed a couple of incidents Call on that, where Harold, has many different versions of the same story and here again he has more versions of the story. either. He helps he helps poland now or he doesn't know. How lynn got out it gets really confused because he can't say with a single story, and his stories just go all over the place. Now the people Stop there are very clear about what happened and some of them were concerned about land being cold. so they were asking him hate How can you cover her up he didn't want to so they did they covered.
With their own codes, are jackets yeah he told the police officer that arrived on the scene. She was helping him change. The tire holding onto the lug nuts she had dropped last night He had rolled underneath the car and she went to retrieve it and next thing he knows the car just fell on her nothing. He did to cause it, but then he just that story again to show drop the lug nut was going, retrieve it as he was throwing the old soft higher in the back vehicle, which caused the vehicle to fall off the jack, but I think they question time on that. So that's why, through the tire in the back, that's why changed it to throwing the tyre in the back? I would question about the jack because he had a jack in the vehicle that a car jack, but He didn't use that to lift the vehicle up.
To support it, he used couple of jack that were used for a boat which they don't have, the the surface area at all. On top, you know a carjack specially one, that's built for the car he's gotta up a cop, on the top or a groove on the top that fits into the the car. Frame- and it's very sturdy- and it's just more durable than a boat jack boat. Literally looks like I don't know, torn almost at the top it's it's got very small top and very little surface area, and it can topple over very easily The question was about the jack wider use this and he said well, wasn't working and he tried using a solvent to get it. work, right, and he said that didn't work either does a jack because the fact of ireland, I guess if it was rusty than its fine but the other thing they notice, though, is there a shoe print?
fender above where the jack's are in this. was the passenger side front tire that they were changing and that you print is right in front of the passenger side front door. why would there be a shoe printer, while this should tell them what happened right simply kicked the car, we talked in the past about when investigations are poorly handled, that doesn't do this justice because they don't Try to match this shoeprints again, any of the people who were wearing shoes that night that were there they don't. look to see if he has any solvent. They dont too. The jack that he says he couldn't used, because it wasn't working right, I'm sure we go on. I mean it's like they don't do anything here, except talk to harold, and then once he says it was an accident and then the coroner says
it's an accident there we're done here. They close The case, six days, they close it out. One of the. Passer, buys that helped out. She would make a follow call the police department and say is that man in jail or what you do about that situation of the woman was crushed under the car. The police will tell her because the case it was an accident looked at the recreation of that accident. I actually wanted to go out to my car and an recreated, but look other professionals had already done it first thing at six out to me: is she dropped love not and rolled underneath the car lugged nuts our big heavy bolts in there role too well car was on the side of the road and it was dirt and gravel so unless she was standing over the vehicle fell out of her hand, hit the rim
the wheel, that there were changing and propelled, self underneath the car sure that's possible, but His version of events is, she was kneeling behind him and he was handing her the lug nuts. So this isn't matching up that allowed would roll passed him and underneath the vehicle which you get down on all fours and low crawl under a vehicle to retrieve the slug net. Would he allow her to do this? My wife, wouldn't do that drop a luxury under the car. This this is, it's not gonna happen, she's, not going under their due to retrieve this, like that, that's very suspicious how this goes down the white eyewitnesses say it it just not look natural. The way she was position turns out taken out a four hundred thousand dollar life insurance policy online and had collected what a tragedy in good thing. He had an insurance rights,
so. Why did too we have a life insurance policy on her when she thought the clever she had multiple life insurance policies on her and they one point: five million peace and really bad for Harold or I guess you could say a bad plan. His part he had to get a policy that was supposed to be a trust for his daughter and he had removed her from the policy so that he would be the sole beneficiary, now looks bad. How did they find on Harold that made them taken to trial he had a map in his vehicle and this man was Of the area that he was going to be hiking in and pretty close, to where tone fell from was a pink acts on the map,
What it was heralds response when they questioned him about this map and the axe exactly where his wife died. He seemed a really struggle to come up with an answer and when he finally did, he say indicate that maybe it was not actually related to this hike. He may have marked it for someone else at some point was that it was either for his friend that live with them for a month or two or a previous bike right or something he was on. I think us person what has said yes, that was the scene, view. I wanted to take my wife to go see but he's unable to come up with even the simplest explanation for why he has a map with an exile exactly where his wife died. And he had a topic graphical map that he is to find where he wanted to take her That's kind of weird cause. I think it topical Google map? shows you were the steepest cliffs are yes,
leave the trail, though they were hiking on got up to, thousand feet above sea level. The fbi and covered that he had another life insurance policy taken out on somebody, now is Linz brother's wife. When he was married to learn his. brother in law's wife a woman named grew. Michelle she was friends with Harold they you each other, and she had no idea that he had a four hundred thousand dollar life insurance policy taken out on her with a forge signature and her name, and he as the sole beneficiary of this life insurance policy. I might take our life insurance policies on all my inlaws wives and husbands. Right now I mean that's. That seems normal right. It's playing the lottery of if one of them. Happens to die. All of a sudden. You have a windfall. Seven bucks a month to start in our policies on people left and right
taken about man like a death pool. Now this all sounds very damaging toward Harold If you really think about it, they were unable to find any evidence whatsoever that he had murdered. Her all we have now. They of questionable actions by Harold they wonder about how long he waited to call for help. After she had fallen. Olive is different versions of how it went down that all seem suspicious, but that's what fence who argue as you don't have any eye witnesses there, isn't dna here there isn't anything to prove that he actually intend two or carried out the murder of his wife. I was she that they want after him for tony's. and not lends death, because How do you prove somebody shove somebody off a cliff, whereas in there, car accident or her being crushed underneath the car. It just looks like
play all day. Long to me. Where is too The lack of a mountain one comes back, that's a little harder to prove, but I think exe the spot in this case, and that's why they went after him for now. I think You know after goes the trial. I think what really good the jury d go against. Harold is I mean sure you can, you can throw in all the inconsistencies. Throwing the ex marks the spot. You go down all these lists, but I think what really get them to go against Harold on this and to render this guilty verdict is They allow the jury to hear about Sandra Lynn, and so what you have is Sandra lynn, plus the so called The accident in two thousand eleven, where his wife is injured by this twenty foot, being that he accidently drops wise on a ladder at recalls or outside. And then you have her falling off of a cliff.
in a very remote location which they arrived at. And they know they arrived at because he wanted to get away from the other people up. There sure he talks about. Oh, she wanted to see the turkeys or we're scouting out a location for dino to bring our daughter next time, which, again treacherous dangerous. What they're really going to bring their daughter there? No, He was trying to get away from everybody else when it comes down to it, the jury, the and arriving at the same verdict, which is guilty I get, but my problem here is, and we are talking about the mai. Well peterson case earlier: yes, People in his life that of die. Falling downstairs. It looks like a pattern And here we have fence arguing tat linz, case should not be brought up in court, but prosecution, says now needs to be, and since its
yeah fbi doing investigation and all these other factors at their way, and I still think that first murderer sandra lens murder, I person think his way more obvious and way more suspicious, but I guess with with tony between me, the acts on the map. Then the other life insurance policies and then, once I found out, he had the one on grace it print it was over at that point, then the I informed the families and everybody that Harold didn't have a job and he'd never worked. He hadn't file tax returns whatsoever that well in herald the gone to college. He had gone to college to become a geologist and He was a geologist for a little while apparently Harold was a lazy man. He didn't work, people that knew him
said that when he was back, on the dating seen, mrs before he got with tony, he was Checking out some differ ladys out there who were well to do- and so he was kind of asking people which, when do you think I should start dating because this one as this much money and this one's doing that and like he was trying to figure out which one would help on the most financially use gold digging seriously was going for that. The best target there a con man cause. He lied about having a job. He lied about being a fundraiser. He lies about his ex wife's death. Everything saying is a lie so Where was he going on thursday night? What was he doing? Well, when you have your baby sitter thinking to herself, while this guy's full of it, then
he's just not doing a very good job because hills they all. I have a flight to catch it this time and then he would leave after that flight supposedly laughed well fbi would pull up his records? They report phone records, they would pull up his credit card records. He was going two pair of bread, eating and surfing the internet. You're, not getting paid by shipowners right now, but yeah, Just you would go wastes time to fulfil his lie this is something that is actually because both sandra lynn and tony really felt. One of his strength was that he was a christian man yeah, you found tony honour christian mingle or some christian dating site but he wasn't really fund raising for churches. That was all a lie he he was not employed. This is with him saying oh, I have card and you can male stuff to this post office box. So one
questions I saw come up about. The skies is a con man who, Murmured them from money, or is he actually a serial killer, and is there a difference? Well, I think it's obvious that he would stay with his wife for a while and then after a time he would. Dispose of them. Collecting and money and move on to the next one he was with both. lynn Antonia for twelve years. He had both m cremated spread their ashes on the same mountain textbook definition of a serial killer is two or more murders with cool period in between. The trial lasted ten days and, as we said, he's found guilty. He of course appeals. What are we left? with here were left with. Why I did tony stay with him. I know that we We ve talked in the past about abuser relationships in
you can't always get someone to get away from the abuser, but his case what was it that he had over her. I think it's obvious. I think he had the daughter and there was a time when per family was questing. Her about her marriage and they wanted to talk to herald they weren't happy with them I sense there is something really wrong she All she would say was something to the effect of you can talk to him, but you're, not the one that has to deal with the consequences of that, and now just imagine putting a seven year old in that mix. if this guy's willing to just kill people for money? who's to say that his own daughter is safe and is is tony willing to take that chance to say: oh, he would never harm his daughter. Even if he wasn't threatening the daughter did. I can still be used as leverage, because he tell her I'll kill you and you'll never see your daughter again, we're not sure what
threatened or if he had threatened her but their older tar. to start over you probably wanted to make it work. I think she wasn't that much in love with them by the end of it, it was obvious that there are having problems now, Hayley hell. He is going to keep her dad because heralds family says, please don't put him to death. Haley's already lost a mother We don't want her to lose her father as well. Hence he life in prison with no parole, but she it doesn't have a family anymore, or at least she doesn't have her parents Tony's family. There are very close and these older brother bury would get his family would get custody of hayley on December twenty third of two thousand fifteen, and was its thing about that is very ended up having a daughter. around the same time that hayley was born, and so she has a cousin, that's her age,
A happy ending run well, it's kind of a happy ending. I guess the trouble with this is when you look over this case, and you see that this. Guy had his first wife die by being crushed by their deep cherokee and theirs clear shoe print on the fender. You think at a policeman that he would have that sense, that something was really wrong. But for whatever reason they just they didn't take it seriously, and this is why we end up with other people getting in the way of danger. We talk but grace. We shall. We talked about tone hence the worn and Who knows how many more people would have died. had they not gone after em for tony's death, modest, say some words, and I that the f b I came out- and they were very certain dead, they had solve this the day responsible for bringing him to justice, but I think that
You have to give tony's family credit because they were contacting people and making sure that he was investigated, as was the family of Sandra Lynn, so you had family reaching and saying you need to look into this guy referred before that Scott petersen was one of the most hated villains in in true crime, but this harold- entering guy. I dont know why he's not up there better known, he should be better known. He should be up there because this guy, they call him the black widower and it's pretty parents that he would murder his own wives for them life insurance policies and he would have to work currently got away with murder. Once Harold was a meticulous planner but he also seems kind of dumb to me because he can keep his stories straight, which is poor. I'd say. Why is there
x on your map, I could come up with a hunter answers for that x right now, but he couldn't come, But something simple as that, wages needs one good, one which you mentioned, which is why I was scouting. This out when they were investigating him, it appears is though he had gone to this park. Now in times before him, tony, as if you scouting it out. He did have a friend that said that old, told them tat. He had gone six times harold would say I would just drive that way, and so that's why my cell phone with ping off the tower over there strive that way to the job that I dont have that's a lie. I guess it's If you tell the truth, you don't have to keep track of all the lies. If you, look over just how many lies he told about everything that that's I he was found guilty, but I still think it's thee. The apparent plots that he had against his own wives
and when they introduce Sandro lynn to the jury. I think that's it. I think they look at that and say the pattern here. If you're a con man and a liar and then you have a bunch, people die around you, that's on you now. The.
in the late. Sixteen hundreds, the coast of north america, became a hotbed of piracy, but a man and pirates were much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were also crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies that would eventually become the united states. I lindsey grand the hosts of wonders, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans. Our values are struggles and our dreams in our latest series we take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and reveal the true stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain kidd, listen to the age of pirates by following american history, tellers on apple podcast, amazon, music or wherever you get. Your pot casts within one week early and ad free by joining one replace an apple upon casts or the one rehab
Transcript generated on 2022-10-16.