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Hauptmann's Ladder Restored - 146

This episode has been professionally restored. We are re-releasing it so that the audience can finally hear and understand the interview. Hauptmann’s Ladder Restored. Author Richard T Cahill Jr. joins the podcast to discuss his book, ‘Hauptmann’s Ladder’. This highly researched look into the Lindbergh baby kidnapping case may finally put an end to questions people have had over the years regarding the investigation, convicted suspect ‘Bruno’ Hauptmann, John Condon, Cemetery John, the trial, & Charles Lindbergh himself. We highly recommend that interested listeners read Cahill's book. It is one of the very best true crime books you'll ever read. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by peacock bridge Did the original limited series, a friend of the family on the story of the Jan roper, kidnappings from again Tosca executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer eliza hip and comes a dark. compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produced which amber Burke herself, this theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna. Grace stream. Now only on peacock, take a moment to get away from her sponsor racket and ragged ten as the smartest and most rewarding way to shop and save earn cash I'd over thirty five hundred stores and every single category like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals travelled, dining subscription services and much more membership is free and it's really easy to sign up rocketing. It's your cash directly in your paypal account, or they can your check it. no brainer you can earn tk. Back for what you already are shopping for rocketing has.
Fifteen million members who are already saving star all your shopping at racquet and outcome or get the rackets an app to start saving. Today, that's racket in our aid hey: u t e n dot com good evening monies richard came the author of a book. What happens? Love step by step analysis kidnapping, oh, how I came to write a book actually is what I did get into the kitchen. So I started researching limburg kidnapping.
Russian polish first year. He was professor saunders recently, so I went the library to try and think of something to, and I found a small book and it contains series of articles that was stuff like the jesse james die as history on contends. It was brushy bill, actually billy the kid do you oppose existing wall, things like that and one of them was entitled, did romo richard help and kidnap and kill the baby, call it read it, I remember many years before seeing an episode of the show call in search of a needle and I, whenever they get ashore about the case, was a guy with a mustache who insisted that helped and didn't do it now? I would find out years later,
isn't that person's, actually angeles, the doodle who wrote a book called scape of the lonesome death of bruno hauptmann naked, seventy six enhanced in so I thought alright. This sounds interesting. It's not as fantastic as some of the bigfoot stories that were in that book. So I worry about, and I read she could do those book didn't realize he was the guy in the tv show, but a Gabriel, the, and I read an article I think it was like baggage evening. They showed me right. I mean tom, Zita and based on that, what an article that member and interested yugoslav I wrote a six or seven the paper or saying how do I use framed in software thought it was wonderful. I gotta be very disappointed. Guy deserted me roger spectre. Father deserve to deal worse. It was pretty bad, but as I went on. I saw another book on occasion, but one young and all of a sudden about now. Let me read that in that book was written.
Why should I be Kennedy, we spoke with the early hardened now. He also Let me help you didn't do it, but he disagreeable one of the things that they do a hollow point, such as that the body that was found was not that of the lindbergh baby. So I still maintain my belief that the mountain didn't do it. Not for the reasons I originally thought not long after that I wrote a book called the lindbergh case by Jim fisher. Jim fisher takes the position that happens. If he he was the only one involved in that there's just no other way to think about, and his book is pretty good. It makes a pretty compelling case now. I still haven't read that book still thought now out and didn't do it, but now I could no longer really give a good explanation as to why so Sorry, I'd take a week or two, maybe three weeks, I'd look at some of the original materialism. I would then
I know for sure what happened fast forward twenty years and I was still going through the materials, and I realized that there was a good reason to write a book, because no one else should have to put the crap that when roper twenty years trying to figure out it up and give him mana, there's so many different books out there somewhere very, very good. Some are absolutely horrible and there's a tremendous amount of material on it, and also when I decided to do is I decided I would write a book without trying to If anybody would actually happen. In other words, not try to say you will think help and did it you will think albert did not do it. I decided I would try to go chronologically. Go through the case dispel some of the more popular myths and although I decided I was not, but my own opinion- People that bought pants by bought it you're going to buy my book and read it damn it. You're gonna get my opinion too, but I put it at the end of the book as much as I could
some areas where I had a kind of give an opinion, because the evidence was entirely clear and I'd, explain why I was presenting it was, but I try to do it my way so that the till you get to epilogue. You gotta know what I think, but not fully, and europe, to make read your own conclusions, and that was why I was shooting. For so long. Ultimately the reason I wrote walking off doing what I mean by this is I wanted to scrub ceiling queen you guys have ever been to grand central station. You have seen many years ago It had a beautiful ceiling and had his constellations have appeared up there, but.
I started my probably when I was a boy. Maybe later you couldn't see any swan and most people thought that it just faded away, so they were thinking of painting it. So they set a coup up first to clean the ceiling and neck when they cleaned away all the certain the smoke and the dirt and everything else. It turned out that beautiful painting was still there and we could see it to date. it will be beautiful. So what I tried to do with my book is scrub. The ceiling wipe away all the mets, wipe away all the dirt lightweight. Frankly, some of the nonsense they tried to. Let you see the actual case, because if you are a true cant efficient, auto the limber cases is the pack a case that just will draw you in kind of like a jack. The Ripper is for Ripper. All adjusts to sequences is a fascinating case that you don't need to distort to be interesting if you present it as best we can as to what we think happened and then let the reader fill in the gaps
it makes for a fascinating account. Isn't it kind of crazy how you read one book and you pretty much? form your opinion. You read another book and it completely changes your opinion, but how powerful that the written word is there? The question many some some of these books are very good, like them solidity Kennedy's book. I disagree vehemently with what he concluded but to deny his ability as a wider would be a fool's follies and he was an actual writing since passed lucky that he was an excellent writer and though I disagree with his conclusions, his pop is fun to read another good book. That's a lot of fun to read, and actually this offer came to one
citing my book, which I was very pleased about. As many zorn and sworn road design wrote a book called cemetery john. He concludes that Halpin was involved, but he believes that Halpin was an accomplice and that his suspected laden name is John knoll was the mastermind behind, and I told him I said I don't agree with the conclusion, but I thought his book was really well written and in fact the best part I told him is the best part to me was in his epilogue. He has a part where he talks about his moments before his father died at a deathbed scene, where him talking to his father and in my case his book came out, homeopathic medicine, two thousand fell. So maybe I was what many caught me more at the time, but I thought that part was extremely touching. I enjoyed his book. London though I don't one hundred percent agree with his conclusions.
He's a nice guy in the water. I know vaguely about the john no theory. I'd never put much stock in it, because there was a lot of convincing ever said they were associates or they were connected. I guess it is very difficult, though you're going to offer another suspect other than Helen. It's gonna be difficult because once the police sorted focusing on Helen, I really didn't investigate the idea of an accomplice and he really didn't investigate anything else. They focused on them and I think they had to like god, but from up on the nose
It is very difficult. After all these years, let's go back to the beginning of when this all started. This is the evening correct. Lindbergh is at home yet and the children are put to bed while, but there was only one child at that time they had other children, but the second child, John, wasn't wasn't born yet to his back. The ann was actually pregnant in the home. That's right! What would you. you'll be debatable, describe the evening or describe what we believe happens and what you're asking me sure, because, as we know, there are suspects in this case, but at the very beginning it started off as a simple evening at home, while lumberjacks were at their home in the sahel mountains. This was a home,
that was still under construction that had been built, but they still there weren't curtains yet upwards. A lot of things still to do and for the most part they stay there during the weekends he didn't stay there. During the week. One march first need to be taken out of the kidnapping visit tuesday night, The only reason they were there as they decided to steal, because the baby had had been second call now and the child's mother showing some signs of a sudden decided to stay there by that great logic, questions and controversy. Over the years speakers people say how did the kidnapper know that they would be there tuesday night they had benin article, some of the police suspected it inside job may be. One of the servants had. Although the kidnapper at the time now an unreasonable conclusion to initially breach
The years other peoples have concluded, mrs, where I can a fall that, did not have any inside information that they will be there, that it was not really public knowledge sitting on. we began people living off. Well, look nearby, might not see him come down, but it an average Also hey, you know, won't be there on the weekends. So I think it should frankly a coincidence that he happened to pick that night, that they happened to be there, which, if you follow true crimes of various different subject, you'll realize a coincidence plays a great part in many of these humps. I'm getting back to windward was not home. Initially, he at once to once again, and betty Gow, the baby's nursery they put the child to bed. The intervention than charles came all. They had been that night. Wait when both Charles
we're in the library which is directly beneath the nursery charles heard, sound of cracking sound she and his testimony in his written reports, the police said sounded like the slaps of an orange greg greg that he bought at mighty, but in the kitchen while most accounts say the n one bird did not hear there is an f b. I report that says she did, but I don't find it particularly belong. Many people conclude as the. Why that that sound, what took place, because the lateral, in my mind at least eg, the time period, which was around nine o'clock when the actual kidnap.
They did not investigated it and go outside to check on them. About an hour later, Betty gow went up to check on chart. She went into the room and she closed the window. This was a french window, not the window. The kidnapper leader would respond later came in. Ah, in an instance when she went to the crib she noticed she didn't hear the sounds of the baby. Breathing, he reached down, he was a baby. Wasn't there sure she went to see an limburg and asked her if she had been taken a baby and she should now for them? Then he went downstairs sissy charles, who was still in his study and when she walked in She said to ma MR limburg. You have the baby and then she said something that has become the basis of one of the biggest
urban legends or myths are frankly outright wise of the lindbergh kidnapping. As she said to Rosenberg. Do you have the baby? Please don't for me now Charles lindbergh was a no poorest, our practical jump and some of his practical jokes were pretty cool There are a series of researchers and a book that include that men beard actually accidentally caused the child's death when he was trying to play a practical joke that he was going to play a joke at the baby and he had been kidnapped, which would be a very sick, practical joke and the baby basically I because he dropped him, and then he went along with the cover up and allowed help. Nicole was deaf and separate, which is equally sick. However, he didn't have the time to do all these things, as we know where he was that night that night before he got there and he just wouldn't have had time and there's not one scrap of proof to back it up. Nevertheless, limerick says no.
and he goes running up the stairs and he looked into the nursery. What he sees in the nursery birth is the sun is not there she's an envelope sitting on the radio, your employer by the window, so the southeast window in the window was closed. Some people say it was open, but that simply isn't correct, because if it had been opened with a windy night, the envelope wouldn't have stayed on the cylinder blown clear across the room. That's why it's important to note that the window, the betty gow, causes the french window muppet se windows, a lot of people believe so limburg. What realizes that his son has been taken and turns to his wife and he says, and they've stolen our baby and an a by all accounts turned to her husband and could barely read, because she was so scared. She basically whispered, oh my god, and
that's where the lender kidnapping takes off from that moment in. they they call the police at that point. In the day, limp lindbergh had on the butler ali, whately call the police and then limbert himself called the staples and then limburg and whiteley go outside and they want to go look around at the first place. They look is outside the southeast window. Now the reason they did that the public in one of the things that was noticed was that between the se window and the crib, where the baby have been sleeping, there's some blotches of mud, which suggested a trail going back and forth at the window, plus the envelope which they would later put up contained a ransom note that was left by that window. So when they look at the ground outside the window, they see two impressions
It looked like he'd been made by a ladder and they see some footprints heading off. Now these footprints were described by limburg and other officers, who saw them later as stocking feet, impressions the meaning that either the kidnapper took off his shoes and walked in socks. Forty put some kind of soccer cloth over his shoes as if to hide the footprints which it was nobody knows, but the description becomes important later they follow these footprints and seventy to seventy five feet. Depending on which camp you through sept. They find two pieces of a homemade wooden ladder and a wood chisel reserve, a bot brothers, an older sanchez and about ten be further from that defined. The third piece of land.
I don't see anything else at that so limburg and wait to go back to the home has not long after that that he hope woke One word basically gives a one off all the tour he shows up nursery. They see everything there. He doesn't. Let them touch anything lindbergh had more faith in the state news, apparently the local police, but they wouldn't let the local police touching You gonna show them the latter oppressions. He found the footprints and the various objects registrar. According to reports in the testimony police officers, they saw exactly what little boy,
So now the staple is awry and they begin going through the same tour and they see the same exact thing so now that, after seeing everything outside to go back inside an investigator frank kelly of the state police begins to process the nursery he dust for prints, and then he looks at the humble now here comes in the urban legend case. It's always been asserted by many people getting some people that I happened to respect a great deal in this case. We want them researchers that the nursery was white clean, a prince. This is not true. and the testimony of investigator Kelly proves this because investigator Kelly- the various areas, and he said he found his report. He said nothing of use, nothing adventures in his turn. the more he said that he found marks in smudges. Now, though,
If you know anything about fingerprints, you know that if you touch a clean surface with your finger, you can leave a print and if he does that you wish upon now, if you go to that circus, you keep touching the same spot. You slide your finger around when you dust you're, going to find a marksman, but it's going to be smushed. It's not going to anything use it. If you wipe the surface clean and you dust you're not going to find the of sluggish upon looking up. So the fact that jellyfish marks and smudges tells me- and anybody with any experience of fingerprints that it wasn't wipe cleaner, he wouldn't found the marks and smudges now to be fair. Kelly was not that good at finger. Pin that would be demonstrated like several days, later he would bring inanity doktor rastus need hudson buckets and use the different technical. He would spread chemical on services and exposed to the sun.
white and it will change colors or you could see the prince was by the time he did that the pigs he was testing had been touched repeatedly. So what he found had no real value to the case, except to show that kelly's methods, weren't very good, then Kelly turns to the ransom. Note And there's no prints found on that which is not unusual paper is not a particular the surface for that plus he was very good at it. He opened the demand to know, and he shows at the window and they look at Basically, in a nutshell, basically says. Dear sir, we pick up your child you're gonna past fifty thousand dollars break down how they want the money and what does not threaten the challenging they don't say. We're gonna kill your job there to save. You want the job back in buildings and it s not only by giving due to four days. We will let you know how to contact us and then at the bottom. It says indications,
all. Letters are signature, spell S, I n g n, a t. U r e and three holds h. O l t s now. The signature that letter refers to is a symbol in the bottom. Ah that's interesting. Interlocking circles with the three whole was plunging the paper and a red dot and a blue dot likely likely made by the court.
and this symbol or signature as it became to be known, will be important because it would be able to be able to distinguish the real notes from the cracks and there were a lot of crimes. In fact, in some of the books about the lindbergh kidnapping, there is a postcard that they put out there that they say this is one of the actual letters and it's not to prank. They says a baby safe act. Accordingly, alpha follow instructions. Well, the police found out and wrote that he was a local guide was not exactly mentally well and he wanted to see if he could get into the newspapers while he did when he was arrested and charged that he got into papers. But while this is going on outside gingerbread decided wanna take another look at the evidence. That's out there now. This is about ninety minutes after limburg
Firstly, the evans, and still there it hasn't been taken inside It- has been cordoned off, hasn't been processed, not love city, which is not very good police work at all police. Is he actually overall did a good job, but not in another. Kid would be very poor that personal in any instance, these two people come out war, men and dig it up and according to what you can we all want in some years later and net recordings Is she available at in jersey, state police, missing markups? When they came out, they said the place was swarming with merely obviously someone from the police had tipped off the media about this, and they were all over the face, and it was very clear to both men that they had to do something because the evidence was being contaminated, show born and kept up the ladder to britain.
It's because, as he said in his interview, the only place where the media wasn't swarming was inside the house, so it picks up the ladder and he starts protecting the house as he does. He notices that the ladder is broken side road, so he grins the ladder in and before he goes in. He walks over to the southeast window and he takes the load and puts the bottom of it into the two impressions that eventually the floor and they fit perfectly it's to him indicated above that this was the latter had been placed against the wall, and he also noticed that there were some scuff marks on the stone wall which matched right up to where the latter would go. Would you putting those holes more evidence that, along with amused, so he then took the latter inside now, while he was doing this to the giga tile?
over and he looks over body everywhere. The latter was found in the chisel and he sees more footprints now these footprint we're not seen by limburg wars, his butler. They were not by any of the police that had been there up until then, and even digital himself, who sought made no reference in before, but now he ceased footprints heading off to the southeast. Now these put pressure described as Woot woot rubber over shipments. Now you may remember, I made a big deal before about the original prints that lindbergh and the other saw were stocky feet. Impressions it's important because of this bomb. Now they found prints but they're dead, now they're, rubber boot or overshoot. Now, perhaps the kidnapper took socks the socks with a cloth off the shoes, though the letters make very much sense to do that. But if passed now these printed off to the southeast,
so dig a ton of policies and while he's fallen, he notices at some point the prince of a dog walking along whitby with the portrait is found. Now I don't think a kidnapper would bring a dog with him, but that's what he saw and he follows him to a awoke or featherbed lane. Derry says the print stock indices. Tire treads now because of this find a police decided that the kidnappers must have Peter especially the shop, is, however, not long after that it was not that night. It was some time later. They would find what's called a thumb guard. You know he knows day some babies, it had put his metal objects on the funk or fungoides, and then they gently tied him down. Initially,
add the pump, while the lindbergh baby had to bump guards on him that night and they found one of them in the driveway it crushed flat. My belief is from attire. I think it was crushed by a fire from all the cars that came in and that's why he didn't see it that night, but the driveways. Let me give direction. One knows what the result. I believe the police were looking in long arabic, the kidnappers me didn't hit at the single went the other way and went down to the job. So what you have at this point now? as it as we get to the end of the first night kidnap. The boys had a rational which clear was written by somebody who was a german austrian, because a grammar in what was written in english
was not a natural english speaker, just the structure of the sentences in superb, they had the symbol on they had the latter. They had the chisel and the third piece one, and although they had some footprints, they never preserved They never took pictures of him and the media that what they are basically walk all over the place, so they lost Adams. That's really all they had the person. So, as you can see, they didn't do a particularly good job, cording off the sea. preserving the evans. Now some limburg researchers have wanted to kill his criticized. My book a good deal say all they did a great job protection regime and why thought. It was the mules report with the police were talking, you knew the mediaset, oh, yes, we call me and my response to that is: do you really We should see the media, oh yeah, by the we stood up, we guph, I you're gonna tell the media to tell the media hype. We did what was supposed to do
you look at the reports and looking at the action did, he didn't could not be seen and courage plans because, I shall be earlier. How do you offer another suspect will try to make any conclusions, somebody help when the early evans from that, because it helps to preserve the sea that they never admit to them, stake. So even in today's world. It's you know what I have just mentioned statements, one law, some other people later like an ancient born and gave a world interview many years. He was much older men and he made vision. She said you know we saw this is gonna, be dispelled. it'd be destroyed after we went got it, bought it in the house and enacted an admission of a mistake that he's trying to correct, but it's still a clear statement that there were mistakes and and treatments.
warning get the trial did an excellent job, pointing out a lot of the mistakes that they made. He made some of the opposite of pretty bad on witnessing so they they. To this investigation now, and They really don't have any leads. They have nothing essentially A letter, though that wants them to do Ransom drop essentially for their very well admit that were, would have to pay, didn't give money instructions really on how they were going to pay it. Just how much it was now look. What happened at this point is there were several fear, is one of the few was that It must have been a game that was involved because, even though there really wasn't any evidence at the scene aboard a one person some of the police officers and to be honest, the researchers have concluded that this would be a difficult time for one person to pull off and that's true. It would be difficult, not impossible, but then
the other fear that was out. There was some other some people concluded will maybe this was gang or organised crime. The reason I walk out of here he was in those days. It was very common in children, a prominent people to be kidnapped by organised crime yet it would be a demand, the money would be paid and the person will be returned and no questions asked but the worse during Police officers were pretty clear that this was not organised crime, because just not, if you're, pretty sure this was done by entering this, wasn't a professional job and if a child had been kidnapped by them, it would have been done in a very professional you what they do within due to clarify richard you're talking about perhaps the broken ladder. Wouldn't that be one of the giveaways. but I wouldn't foresaw they wouldn't said they would wouldn't leave the latter. They wouldn't be the chisel ground they wouldn't
I had a ransom note in that would sound like somebody who's german. I mean it just the whole thing I mean it was very clearly done a sloppy way and, You know people say oh, he must have been a master sleuth to get away with it. No, the fact of the matter is, you look at it. The jacket me all the kidnappings, it was not by any means, someone who was a master problem now labour However, seem to favour the idea possible, of the lobbying involved, and I say that because he decided that used to possible goble trees. Were too low level gangsters, irving basin, Salvador salaries to town and he announced to the media that they were designating. This man is possible, vulgar dreams, also england were asked to be published. A diet baby was on tissue
and suddenly Jonathan. Second, she cared for now. The catching of these go between two affects the first, was it caused another letter to Wednesday, nobody kidnapping, want to limburg at his house, and the other was to pursue. here the woodwork at all the press conferences with turn curl breckinridge, and this was sent a broken. We just loves, and basically what this letter said. Love is. Why call the police why you making such a big deal out of it? Now I have to keep the baby longer now the reasons behind the seventy I watched, and it also made a statement that we will not accept your goldens. However, the way it was worded was not clear to the limbers or to the police as to whether or not the kidnapper was saying. We won't accept any of your go. Betweens, walk and watch shepherd
would you put forward for if he was saying that even only negotiate directly, the italy wasn't here, but the other thing that was put in a very good books report this. But it's important. They made a suggestion that naked, communicate or give kidnapper message by putting an end in a local publication. and this is very rarely reported, but it's important because it gave a way to communicate back and portable you to sit near one per month, but the bigger affected that the the selection of mobsters as both of the tab was it caused the entry of the most powerful and individually entire investigation, peace, doktor John caught him in the bumps doktor cotton was a cemetery,
Art educator was seventy two years old, he was a a very bombastic man, because the best instructional, ah he was- was a big man. Well over six feet tall with over two hundred pounds of muscle for his age, he was in excellent physical shape. Ah, he was a it's worse than he had been on fire for lily. He had been a very good baseball player in his youth. He was, he was sent a boxing in love and so forth in pretty good were discussed again for his age and he had been a principle and teacher. and by this point is life he was an occasional lecture at fordham, universal and he'd love Linda. He thought limburg was the greatest thinks and sliced bread and caught it was also very patriotic, but almost to the point of annoyance menu is just
Thank you all and what he read that is you oldenburg was haven't slept with gangsters. He got very upset. He did what he usually did with something like this happened when something happens, one he hurried on to spend what what a shame was but ya. I wrote a letter to the newspaper, but not just any newspaper. He picked a local watch, all news not many people have wandered over the years why they picked up publication. Some have suggested. We pick that because he was past the gang, and this was away yet he could communicate can you give at each other and they picked? This paper could deal with no use now, that's not. These are really good reason you get it was. He was friends with the other that you could get his letter and debate in small towns like one phone there's one used, while on the other, those long, it's not. You know something where you
Is it bad language or something it's probably going to get the paper? It's a small publication, new york city, the walks and support. If you watch the new york times and the daily news, we're you're, not necessarily- and I get your letter and because you you're calling from a larger pool of people but actual newsworthy into the editor that would get his movement and his letter basically said that he was a terrible thing: that limburg was able to control the gangsters and so forth than that He was going to offer a thousand dollars of his own money now about, and ours today is a good sum of money In theory, it was a tremendous amount. He was basically all he had, and people say that he offered the money as part of the ransom and that he would be volunteering to be the go between if not what is one said. What his letter actually said was that he was all
when a thousand dollars, if you never get, the kidnappers would take the baby and give him to a catholic waste. The reason that he picked a catholic priest was he reasoned that if he did it as part of a confession, then the catholic priests would be bound by the confessional, could never repeat the man's name. Well, that's all well and good to know that he had never was actually lose, but that's an hushed in any instance. He did not put it out there that he was going to be the government here he was often anything other than one.
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They thought it was offering. Their services is above all, to even ordered and say that now can't you didn't do what he did to correct it, and it was basically within twenty four hours. A day obligation coming up in a letter arrived at his home, and the latter was addressed to MR doktor John. That sounds kind of strange, but it's not if you speak, german, german, I would say paired up which, if you watched the old war movies, maybe you've heard that sat where, if you speak, german, you understand herr doctor literally means Mister doctor to proper german, sanitation, more evidence that the kidnappers was german washed. It must be said that they also speak to me. They ve got christian storage, which is more difficult for me to honestly. I speak german very very hard time
understanding, someone's largely because of the different dialects. I should give words. I digress, inside the word inside the oblong was a letter, another all of them still and the letter said basically, ok, dog if you want to be the go between. You can be just take the lead of the envelope that we've given you to dr cotton. Don't tell the police, don't tell the press, in fact, don't tell anyone. on the letter to cod and there was no symbol of import sawhorse. What's the first, they can't nobody gases. He was right down to her stop all by his friend max rose again, and he tells max all about me and he was tried by his friends. This brenda must reach, but he couldn't find him so fast
the match was named another name, a note gaggle and tells them all about it. So they said well, why don't you contact contacted the state, so he calls and he, if says he has to speak the limber, and eventually he gets limburg on the farm. Some nick it was actually a secretary of Mister lindbergh. You know it really is a minor point. I think it actually was longer, because limburg was known to take the uncle, it was believed to be genuine. and turned it could make a good presentation. He had been a lecturer already had all is decreasing. I used to beat him salary you dignified when he wanted to. So I have note the washington leaving the window. If people saw lindbergh, hasn't, read the letter and by all accounts he really wasn't that abroad. He passes. Well, okay, is there anything else he says? Well, he says in another, or should I open issues yet I had written to open.
The awful already reached on adaptation who says you know you ve been begun. Cardigan baby go between? Ah it s, good start getting instructions about Are you going to put the money in the in box or container and here's the word? They use this package, but then he draws a picture of a box of a three dimensional picture of a box and gives the dimensions So I can't reach all of that, and members know all that. Not all in practice is that it because it will help it's a strange symbol on the bottom corn that gives liberals attention and so went on to describe the symbol, lingered realizes this is the secret symbol on the original ransom note for toast on, and you should come to my house savannah- takes that literally an ied. He and his two friends take off at night arriving at lindbergh's home about three o'clock in the morning and he makes liberty
It is and he ends of staying an idea with his two friends go back on and stay the there in the only rule that was available, which happened to be her. He babies nursery. He spent the night metal so thus enters John Carter. one of the most controversial figures in case because in her way about what he wouldn't outward lot, what he would enhance it to make himself but like conquering hero, and if you yeah, there's towns have a yucky go to like a local love. Origin on account will be somebody there who likes to tell teams and every time they tell the story. The basic facts are the same, but their own often becomes all the more worrying. Maybe they said one thing in the next for a while. They should something a little better in historic, each is getting more grandiose radios, and that was the love to do.
and when you start doing that and the police are taking your statements, do any mistake and stop batch exactly and people are looking at this. It doesnt present you with the most credible person and people who concluded happened, didn't do it, they were based on it and I got some grounds to do it. But all this comes about because limburg in inner circle excepted it's ridiculous idea that the mod buying it, although to be fair, it wouldn't have been as interested vacation upon it. A maybe I wouldn't have written Bible say true. I do know from from the book. You write a lot about condon and I thought it added a lot of character to the story. It adds a third.
Imagine having Condon there and I think especially people who are teetering on whether to read the book or not. This is some information I hadn't seen elsewhere, while some books have it on you. If you were writing a book about the lindbergh case, without John cotton is kind of like having cornflakes of the milk, I mean it's, you know he is the the most interesting part of the case, because I thought, if, if you accept everything condon said it says that he did then case closed, because he the one person who saw the kidnapper in the cemetery and if you believe him what he says that batman was helping cases close. I mean you know he is the the straw that stirs the drink. In this case he really is and he's such a fascinating character. I've actually considered. I don't think I will, but I can
intertwining a book. Just a biography of me is such an unusual, interesting guy, but now to do that. Require me to almost read write about the case again, and you know why I've already done that, so I decided not to, but he has a fashioned, arab rulers, I mean the letter that he wrote. He wrote it ink that he made himself, it is written properly and you look at the She will letter anxiety and write. It looks at calligraphy you can write, you ever see gorgeous in may this year this guy, if you read his book, he wrote his own memoirs about the case, for jesse tells all it's a somewhat rare book, but any real lindbergh researcher will have a copy of it and it's fun. To read, I mean it's. A fun read but sir
parts of it you just go. Oh no. This can't be you just know is always is just as telling the yarn and making it greater and so forth. But it's such a fun read. You just burst out laughing every once in a while, because it's just so outrageous, So, essentially, at this point now he has this doctor kind of being his liaison right. Yes, they eat the go between man. He was followed up a bit hard and after being accepted as the go between Ah, they eventually through a series of letters and adds himself what they eventually arrange to have a meeting with the kitten and cotton is a phone call. This may do up on its own jump uncles.
One pointed wasn't there and the second one was his wife in prison, and I will pick it up on the falco second bunker con and answers the phone and was now in the fall with very thick german accent. Did you get it? You got my note and he suggested they start a conversation and basically, after talking for a while, he tells him stay at home and you're going to be content. Now, when Condon tells the story about it, he when he told the police, as he says he heard some things in the background, and he said that at one point during the conversation, the person on the phone said- and you sometimes write, write articles for the newspaper and said yes, I go economy reports
the guide then said that if he was speaking to another person, he says he sometimes writes articles for the pigs and then called and said why, at the end of the conversation he heard a woman say stopped a seat on not sure if I'm pronouncing tying loudspeaker tongue, but Kannan says that, basically is a slang for sure at which point the almost immediately after the personal on says. Well, you'll be contact, any hangs. A so called it had concluded. Beginning that there was conspiracy that wasn't one person was based on his phone call that he needs
We should now whether or not this person was speaking to another person call it. This is an exaggeration of condoms. Nobody knows for sure, because the call was recorded and there was no evidence. One thing that the candy can never did santa on galactic is interesting. Content asked him: where are you calling from and he replied westchester? now most people say well, there's no evidence that the westchester say what chester Westchester county had anything to do it well the english interesting about says, not govern, suggested interesting possibilities were already happened. and was eventually arrested, convicted and execute the murders of it. Not only from the nearest phone to his home was subway station closest to his house.
And the subway station. The name of the subway station was worse just now. That could just be a happy coincidence, coincidences or something called the case. But if it is true, then it's interesting how began the joyfully yet didn't give any information, but really really was. Was nobody bought subway station and not being a public following, could explain why there some other people you might hear in the bathroom or speculation. Or is not evidence but kind of it, just a private interest. You know so so now. Cotton is waiting for counter now with canada at time was his friend and bodyguard outrage and also colonel recognise the tomb now how'd it bought. That was wonderful, the bretton woods Staying looking at one time you got while this is just to help with the case. What he didn't know with limburg didn't really full trust him, yet
want to have somebody there to keep an eye on so that evening, there's a knock at the door and pot and answers the door and as a cab driver there and but in any instance the cab driver says he has a note the con, while breckenridge jumps on it and he will upon and takes the no. He interviews the cab truck cab driver's name was Perrone employee said that equal sir I'll run down your world and was a man approached him whose he describes close and he asked him if he knew were Decatur. Woodcutter wasn't just street that the continent- and he asked him he'll- be new doc honey it. Nobody knew who was so how much about how much would a meteor going about things so hands on the latter, Angela dollar, destined to prove it leaves so this man who are delivered to know and not.
Breckenridge takes down all of his information, so they can't contact in wife and they wouldn't he would be an important witness later. Socan opens a note and basically the note it, tells him where he has to go and it leads him on his journey and he leaves with outrage, for his plan had been drive, so he had summoned the driver and he bought outreach from solid gold follow the instructions and eventually find another? No additional gives the walking and naked. They can tell them no one year and looking around this is gonna, be them into a senator mechanical step up in bed the almost anita senator so reach decided to stay in the car and hardened starch heading towards senator
and reached out to him as he walks away. He makes a joke and he says to him. He says: well, this is darkness as if it, if he shot you he won't. They will take you very far to bury friends like that, sell those and up. he's looking round, and eventually he sees a man waving a white handkerchief, so he goes up to him and he starts to talk to him any What's your name and he walked palmy. John, so of course deserve it, The cemetery he said calmly, john disbursements come down here. the history of the cases has been called sen. John stillwater, just starting to talk all of a sudden. They hear a sound of someone approaching and a awkward look over. There see somebody wearing some kind of a uniform cemetery, John skins, if the police- and he jumps up climbs over the gate, drops down next to content in texas, running across the important part it turns out. The man was a boy was
nicknamed real. Who was such a regard and cottage that sought to quickly like out. Don't worry about I'll, take care of it when he takes off running the banquet and pop now. Here is a great example of how content would change things exaggerating. His store would be true, but he would edge according to condoms. Account He chafed after the kitten caught up to invent cortlandt, random body on forced him down to a ban, and then gave him a stern lecture how he wasn't really being a man. He should be willing to sit here and talk, and then they sat down and talked for an hour now outreach was there. He gave an accountant, he couldn't get a good enough look to identify the person, but he saw the person jump over the fence and take off into the park. His account says that the conduit chased after him, that'd be a kidnapper stopped. Allow content to catch up to him
and then they sat down on the bench and they taught for bowl. Now you say: oh geez, which one are you going to believe will have you accepted I do that cemetery John was actually grown over to help howard in his was in his thirties at the time with loafers hundred and seventy two years old, he was in good shape for a man who was. Seventy two halpin was in excellent physical shape. There is no way that a condom at seventy two years old would have overtaken a ton or robotic help. Now, if he had caught up to him, I have no clue To my mind, it caught it might have been visible, strong enough to pushing down the back garden was a very visibly straw man, but running that it's not gonna happen. Not seventy. Two years I don't care for jack la lane and just not going to happen, but you see how pond and changed it to make himself the conquering hero. I chased him down. While now you chased him and he stopped and you caught up
I bet you did say you I'll, stick around and be a man, but you didn't catch it and ass an example of how can it would turn things around to make himself? He wouldn't lie, but he would stretch the truth. A bit to make himself seem the conquering hero and help old Darren was so. Nevertheless, there, an expansion of talking and conduct I keep saying to SEN John. I want to see the baby and cemetery john cage reply. I can't do that. The leader would smack me out SEN John always spoke of we. He always insisted, he was part of a gang and he was the moon. He said that the yellow one or the other people in the gang new content and that's why he picked, and then he says,
what would happen if the baby is dead? Would I burn the baby's dead for those years ago when he says, would I burn the method of execution largely nowadays with the electric chair and he would say ye burner your fraud connoisseurs? Well, what are we talking about if a baby is dead on powers of his own exact words were what were believed to be tackled and again, every time khan talked about the conversation changing a little bit to make himself more holds. So nobody knows, for certain deference when I tried to do was take those things that were consistent in all of the stories and go with them, because I am based on my research of the man. If you took everything, that's consistent is probably true. If you take your things are different and you go with the ones that make himself seem no more daring,
you're, probably off track in any instance, haunted system. At what point would you take me to the baby? You, particularly as a hostage john didn't seem to understand ever will be she's. Now I can't take you. There will eventually, ah Timothy Johnson will, will send your proof I'll, send you the baby's sleeping suit. So at that point baby a part conduct courses, they they got up and he shook hands like gentlemen and awaiting me not long after that, a package arrived a conference house and inside was a doctor, denton sleeping so breckenridge didn't know if this was a genuine article. Surely the contacted window and limburg actually went to college ass. It was wearing a disguise. Is they had cooled down his glasses because otherwise you would be added. The media would have found this. What nobody you can't!
was the go between the keep it that, whereas usefulness as a go between could be destroyed? Now I'm bringing up this skies because after Condon was outed as the go between he had to go places and he had to wear a disguise the one time he wore a disguise. He apparently put on a woman's hat with a big scatter. He put an end and so forth and basically addresses woman, how they didn't notice is big wars moustache and he had is not explain what just gotta see the difference com the limburg shows up vibrate, simple disguise and was caught. It has an outcome that is outrageous that what it actually happened is that I don't know, but we should again example have subsided
So limburg is buried and he looked at the sleeping suit. He says that this is the sleeping suit that my son won so now, they're convinced they're, dealing with a kidnap course limerick says something else that has always bothered me because I've never been able. wayne swainson. He says I wonder what I had to see queen other possibilities. They could have thought
walk. We pleaded to avoid any coordinating. Heavens. I doubt that because he had today said well, she aside what hair ready to do that type of stuff. In those days no fingerprints was high tech back, so it's unlikely that he could be there. Might've been some blood on it, the other possibilities dirt. I know some people think that I can never went back to where he'd buried the child John gave up and took the sleeping sued awful. I don't think so. I bet it's possible. I figured sleeping sued off the baby that night and I think that's what caused the bung guard departed. He took a sleeping should run off in the driveway. yep or ill. Judging the body, the baby was dead, what he needed, which was a sleeping suit, and I did detonate a bomb going off, but nevertheless it's always been something. I've never been able to answer fully. Why was the queen but yeah? It's an interesting note. So now they have the sleeping suit.
I didn't realize you're dealing with the right guy eventually, after some additional notes back and forth another arrangement, his neighbors are going to be contacted, so they have the money right. He had seventy thousand dollars ready mom. I told you before that they had a. They were total package or a box together by certain dimensions. Will that box fit the fifty thousand fit that box perfect for the extra twenty thousand didn't, but the box was damaged when they tried to put it in the shepherd package that happen. We have twenty thousand now what they did with the maximum use day used a lot of gold. You didn't ask me thirty. Six thousand of the original fifty thousand were culture. A culture travelers were selected. He was suggested by was, I really live in. An internal revenue should be helping with the case here. they were aware they present rose.
It was only issued executive order requiring all gold certificates and gold money to be turned in the greenbacks as part of the as part of his many economic ones, and this will make them very rare and easy to spot but the average person didn't notice was going to happen. So you wouldn't be anything that the kidnapping upon suspicious smart move now the twenty thousand was up in fifty our goals. this would have been easier to spot, hardly notice, and this would should trouble. Man was the last minute, so they eventually get a knock at the door and it's another cab driver- and it's another note, but this time, for whatever reason, I guess the excitement of them all we're took down the year, the name or any information about the camera. All we have is a big description of a given by one of the people there, but we have no idea.
The man was none whatsoever that mistake in any instance, this notice. someone who first start sending them on their journey. and they find another. No during this journey began. Lo and behold they end up at another senator this time. Re mission and the other differences this time. It's not I'll. Reach will become this time. Limburg himself, the sun. He was going to be there and he went on and we drive up and they get the note. They realize that they're going to have to go into the center, so they talk for a minute. It's decided that limburg will stay in the car and condon will head towards the senator two content head over and not long after he has Zobel lindbergh she's a man couple from walking by who has a handkerchief covering part of his face. He had stood,
It's not long at thereafter that this man comes running back and as a sort of fish caught with a handkerchief, eventually sneezes dropped. The handkerchief leaves. Some people have arrived at. This was somebody trying to give a signal to the kitten weeping did. Sneeze would not have been allowed nothing Is anybody here in the center they did take akershem and nothing happens. Unfortunately, They washed it over the years and now did you get this no possibility. Dna is now Do you really know for sure what this man is in? so now nobody has ever offered a theory as to who he is, and although I tried to stay fact base and avoid theories, I actually had a discussion with my.
Was it because they wanted me to take this out initially, and I convinced them to let stay in, but it's a footnote as opposed to the main part of the text. I have my own theory who this was. I believe it was captain. Oliver of new york city police department see the policeman bucket a mop, secure the tablet of ice. They knew there was a good chance that that the ranch was going to be paid at night, so they shut up, commissioner center of notice to the very limited police that they would stay away from certain parts of the bronx that might happen. Oliver figured out this is this is what's going to be, it must be remembered, is so he or he ended up a year ago and found himself with the police and the police knew he was in and he followed them. He followed them all the way to the senator and, according to the accountable.
Oliver got cold feet at the lesson because, although he liked the idea he never believed there was a gang, he thought it was a long guy. He thought a captured, a style will catch him dead to rights. it'll be better and not sure he also thought he'd be the comparable, but he got cold feet at the last minute because he thought to himself geez. You know Why screw up this guy gets away or if it is again and the child gets killed because of what I did I couldn't live with myself, plus the public and the police will come down any minute. Now. I can't prove that it was all what the acts of this man at limber described I get what we what we know where the acts of oliver that night as far as him being there the way he was dressed in Sopa plus there's one other thing that happened. That really makes me suspicious of him. Once
We're started to be after they made an arrest of Bruno richard. The first thing that happened was they try to get an indictment in new york city on stores in charge for exploring the money. This was the holiday inn and have until they would. the charged with murder or the kidnappings that was gonna, be new jersey and they need keep him held until they get will for the legal act like this tradition process. During the grand jury process, woodland was testifying mentioned this guy one of the good During our asking a lot of questions, at which point the assistant district attorney job get it made a stake. You said that person had nothing to do with the quad. What's move on now, number of years ago. I was an assistant spectrum and I can tell you in the state of new york that that is not the usual process. You don't normally just say to a grandeur, no definitely not
something to do with. It was robot it's a little unusual and my belief is that they, the police, knew and he wished craig knew that this was captain oliver and they did not want that to get out. Imagine if you will the public finding out that their idol kahlenberg, whose baby was kidnapped. Hey dissuasion and then a cabin yorkshire wished about was there could have made an arrest it didn't. They would have gone by hand, My belief is that if you wanna talk about it bob, I think this wasn't one cover gaze. I think they knew it was kept. Oliver, the end they didn't want people again, but song, they cover up was really more a cover. Up of police air or were aaron judgment, not
a cover up of who is actually a guilty party here, correct, that's bibles on max it. I can't definitively global, was Oliver what you know, I feel very strongly that was it fits everything while about one kid, there are no official reports of what we know of it. Oliver told and water dudley schoenfeld is actually a psychiatrist who actually did a profile at a very early profile, it never before happened everything one he did pretty well. He would later wrote a book about it in the he included that account the well before assuming what oliver told him to be true. It fits true to its programme. Anyway, I'm open another one of my pages by you're fine, so it needs to disguise born. So meanwhile, Han is he was there. He. Nobody is time.
He's just about only when he hears a voice you're a a doctor. Limber is this and eventually he would testify a trial it after he heard happens, was when he was arrested, the help it was the same person who had said hey doktor at the centre of its often squires. Your witness testimony suppose the islands personally ana- and this is where I agree with a lot of the people who concluded know who lean towards it happened to do it? I think this is weak evidence and I don't think it's credible ones. I do not believe that lindbergh or anybody for that matter could ah a year and a half to two years later identify a voice that he heard speak two words at that type of distance and say beyond all doubt that that was how he
it'd be able to say it was a german accent. He might become similar, but I just don't think so. I think whether he lied or whether he just said you know what this guy is the guy that did this and he actually believed it the one so I dunno, but it's not evidence lomborg to set a goal. I do believe Houghton was guilty. I don't accept everything that the state offered as evidence of the pilates, just not credible, but enough of it is to improve progress happen so in any instance, content years of big walker. They start talking and, of course, the person who can protest. You have the money. Mister do it's it's over to car, but who's added. That's colonel window, so they go back and forth in canada will show me debate because I'm another do that what did eight hours you will find a bee cottages. None I give you the money I want, so they go back and forth and eventually it agreed that its monetary john will give counted written instructions as to whether
ideas and return. It might then comment. something that a lot of people have said, proves if he was in hours, he says to look. These are depression. I'm lumber it doesnt. Have that much money. You said you take fifty want you just take it and senator jobs as well get fifty. I guess we'll take it now. For my perspective, you still get some john quaintly he's just a low level god, yet he had the authority to conduct seventy to fit. That has to be I think he was the guy or he was a major guy and mom. Wasn't a single level got people? Yes, I I just want to highlight that point, because that's the mom right. You know reading the book that was the moment rise it exactly. You can't just this I cannot just sign off on less money. If he's not the person,
war, is not a major part of bright bride exactly otherwise. You live in a real problem, so full of one where people focus on as they say, well, women con and got rid of the twenty thousand. Now that extra twenty thousand with a fifty dollar gold certificates, which were the easiest to spot so people say well, he did that to protect himself. The kid the kitten, however, later that night, when content found out about he he didn't know all about the weather or the fifty thousand that he didn't know what was going to because he had no idea. He was talking with the one of the people there and he said. Yes, I saved the colonel twenty grand and yes, one hundred you do not me explain to him.
they got all upset and when the actual accounts of it they said khan was besides. He he was inconsolable when found out, which will be very inconsistent with someone who was. You were supposed to be pulling fast cars when he found out, he had hampered the investigation milk and he really was upset that he thought he'd done a good thing in any instance, so he goes back to Kang now. According to the book, Jesse tells all cotton punisher. He checked his watch to see what tunnels when he left he goes back to the car tells lindbergh. He saved him. Twenty grand takes the box with a fifty thousand. He goes back to where he had been in cemetery. John is not there. He claims that when cemetery john returned, he checked his watch. It was about thirteen minutes. So, whether that's true or not, who knows it could be an exaggeration, but if it is true, then whatever wherever the
snapper one which I would suspect, is probably a waiting car somewhere on the other side of the senator, could be a lot of pimples. That cemeteries is very, very big where he went. Nobody was sure, so the exchange of that one over a hedge that separate the answer: no sit on our hands in the box, the need to switch according to common he a good. You need a deal that he wouldn't that he would wait. The look at the note for a period of time. He says the can never opens a box look soon and says something like your work perfect and away. He goes into the night with a month now taught in return.
He tells them already says. Well, I told them that we would look at this for a period of time and he says lindbergh put the look the letter into his jacket, MR driveway. According to carnage version, they say that he told them would look. I I own property, not far from here. Let's drive over there I promise I will look at it. Did you did what was true and I dont know, although limburg, and you didn't initially look out of water was because you do his pardon sir. Oh, he did want the kidnappers you. He was looking at his job fondle they go and he looks note. This is the last note that they ever received from the kidnapper. It basically says the child was on the ball, bold as if evil b, o e d, which is the way it's pronounced in german, although not the way it's written Jim, is written with a t. German pro pronouncing the gas boat, but in the instance it says the boat, it is whoa nelly and ia la eat, and it gives instructions where can be found.
oh now. Limburg thinks he's the raiders kickback key and in region region break the the next day to get a new are flying around looking. This was on for several days. Finally, they realise that it's a wild, goose chase the beers ida written about it. I can find it listen notes russia. In another publication, the are basically have you crossed. Please get them directions taken nothing now, during all this, time it was another man, then claiming to be a go between the john Curtis Curtis. Ah had been largely ignored, but now, since there was nothing left, leaning economists are, they
It's one of the british enable their doubt going all over the place and kurdish time such fantastic stories that they would. They would make comments pale in comparison than just outrageous stories. He was corvus cloak and dagger nonsense and the ramapo and it is obvious from the limburg and tell him. I have news, then clear your cache, limerick, I want to look the way to the sea. Apparently he knew what was coming. This was on may twelfth. He called him, sir. Your son has been found dead. Now, the way his son's body was found. There were two men truck drivers, driving and one of them rebel wilson needed to put this delicately needed to answer the call of nature, and so they pulled over and he walked into the woods to do some
now, history does not record if he answered nature's call or not, but what it does record is that when he went into the woods he saw body of a baby. So he goes back to the truck and two of them realize they found a body they go and they go to the hopewell police department and He reported, and lo and behold it turns out that it is. Baby. The body is identified based on it, loading and he was wearing and several other things and that it is determined did. This is lindbergh's child and taken to the mortuary and an autopsy one. Now the interesting thing- and I'm not the person who uncovered this actually Jim fisher's, and it turns out that the good doctor who was supposed to do the autopsy was believed to have done couldn't, but he had severe arthritis.
and he wasn't able to physically do it anymore, so he had another person there actually conducted, although he walked in for the autopsy. Isn't really that good, there's no pictures of it, either. You know, then, he brought out his nose. They take pictures all over the place. There were pictures taken at the crime scene, see what the body was found, but no pictures taken during the acid. The cause of death was given as blunt force trauma, the baby swallows fraction They are able to determine that the fracture heard while the baby was still alive because they found a blood clots or even told me, some stop. There was a whole found that some people think was bullet hole, I recorded the official accounts when the police found the body, they were using a pencil to move the body and crew with scala decomposed and the pencil went from the skull ah and made that whole theoretically,
One forensic pathologist of the modern era who disputes that doesn't a pencil could make that I'm not a scientist. So I don't know for sure, but I do know it's not a boat reason. I know that is if a if a person shot in the back of the head and the bullet with another bullet exits, the front the hole in the front is much larger. The original was no old found in the front of the baby's head and its inconsistent, always in the end they didn't recoverable from inside. But now I get that money did not know where to go. Now, there's no eggs and I came up here. we're just about. There was no exit from the ball, but the autopsy is meat of all the scientific evidence. The autopsy is the weakest. Since the criticise a lot, there was a td to prevent a get. A whole analysis of all of the Heavens. listen do the order in which they had
did the handwriting evidence and they did what evidence and support them. In fact, end up our vibrancy remodelled revenge of animals is, although there are some who have and they also wasn't there a lot of you, my mom. She is determined that child died from charm limburg I identified the body as the sun and Betty Gallagher. If the body is born, as other evidence, hidden gem, but winner decides to have the baby cremated. Some people have said that, while he did that because he wanted to get rid the adage refused the part real reason he did. It was while his trial was in the mortuary. During the evening, reporters broke into the mortuary, cried open a casket and took pictures of his of his baby of his sons,
and these pictures are then distributed around and this upset limburger great deal and realizing that these knobs would likely desecrate his son's grave. He had the body cremated now yet this crime occurred today. That would never happen. The police would have taken the body into custody and it would have been an extensive autopsy and it's awkward. Then they would have bought He would have been maintained by the police, for a substantial period of time would have been an improper morgan and so forth, but now this is yeah. This is ninety belief. Ninety thirty two made ninety three children. They just didn't do those sentences, so he had a bait bike maybe just a water sons were being designated, but even that he doesn't get a break. Ah, but let me say one other them up. Member made most each with a guy. You think a great deal of limburg and that's not necessarily so limburg was by no means
by today's standards? Limburg was raging, anti semite by the status of battle Thirty, two not so much. She probably would still be here at all, but I could not daring to senators and was much more prevalent more out in the open, but by standard you get you be raging in lhasa they came out years and years after his death when had multiple children from three different went out wedlock until the women were actually sisters, so he was by no means of saint now. He did financially provide If the children, the children knew he was the father, but they were told to keep quiet. It was only through dna testing years later that the family found out what we have half brothers and sisters. So limber is not a great saint and a wonderful guy, but he's not as horrible monster
we've got some people plotted to pick them up to be, and even our our a prominent historian, lloyd, gardner, writes in the paperback versions, but not the original article in the paper. in the book, and he thinks london's rock of which, with all due respect to him and his potentials of my mom sensor,. There he is. His theory was that the child had rickets and number one it up here. She and state child or something to them, in fact, even though they were treating the child with. You know some events and whatever, and it's not there's no convincing evidence that he had with the child. Hudson the child did have a woman in the foot he had some overlapping chose. I am not going to say he was perfect, but by all accounts lindbergh was the son and there's just no evidence that he did that now he says what lindbergh had done. All these other children do, whether women that's true. So that means you
later on. He was a dirt back. That doesn't mean that he was a murderer again. He said he was sent to us all We are using to what are you jack's? That's true, that doesn't make him a murder reminded him a bad guy, but it doesn't make him a murder, and if he rises, arises that there was an attempt made to have, kidnapped and put away somewhere, and then he died during the course, but there's just nothing to support, Well, I mean you're gonna go with that philosophy period, and wouldn't he want the their children that he kept. Grit. All his life gone taken care of also not just because his own child had you know, again why tat was advocated? It can accept this nonsense. Very I would imagine MR gardiner would probably why you're stuck with professor gordon would argue that. Well, these children were not, and he did not happen
physical elements and he was more concerned with sweaty. You see if you will and adviser were physically Ok, then that will be all right. Now is what is new? Is you can't just because you have to prove a negative? to me. If you can offer theory, you better have a book to back it up and does not exist. lord partners, not a not lord gardiner is a respected historian. Usa, professor, I believe you but what university he's a respected got and an idle We met the man and I won't bring anything it gives you personally, but I think it is. I try to avoid at all costs but I'm the only people I ever say anything about anyway about them themselves will be while we are open the crime of the century, because I have a flat line, but they say that they went to the archives with mark bows edi, who is
really credible guy who runs the archives. He said point blank they've never been so. I have no use for their book and question their credibility, but gardner, I just think, is wrong. His gear measure respected history and I think, he's off base a mission I think he's allowed his Personal feelings of negativity: it do you believe that people I know this is ass. He opinion here, but why is it so important for people to hold on to their original opinion, win, Your book illustrates there is so much evidence there to look at lahti without law people there.
One omitted. The lungs said he now takes a big man or big woman to admit that they're wrong. A lot of people can't do that and some people have come to believe their fears, and I know this case has a lot of circumstantial evidence and a lot of evidence that can be twisted and if you're picking have a theory in mind of you start researching this case. With a particular theory in mind, you could fight, after all, the gold is an example. There was a person that was bluff. Owen was called a look alike robin issued an initial statement, saying I was the person that was seen near the lindbergh almond zopo and they started riding with a while turns up. No, it wasn't. They were able to disprove it and dramatically, but it's also the people produce you've got condit. Who makes these altered statements in what he's trying to make himself more grandiose? You can use docket,
well out you've got these other things against lindley when you've got all the original? A lot of the original I was destroyed and they use us like the footprints. So there are from here, and there are some things we just don't know nobody will ever know for sure, because my friend mark housing once made a statement on a television show. He said if anybody tells you, the day. No everything there is to know about the limburg is. There are other line for the deluding themselves, because even more I could walk, who I will readily concede knows more about the case than I do, and there aren't many people I can see that mark. I do mark, never gives an opinion. He won't do. He believes that it's not as places to hide I was to give his own opinion. So what his own opinion is, I don't know, but when he says that no will ever know what actually happened fully and completely that's a heck of a state and making I grew,
certain things will never get an official, even ida, fallacy in my pocket. I said I don't know if it was in common, they help did it, but I'm open to the possibility tat. I don't think so, we have definitive evidence zone but there's possibilities, and I said different things in the bucket month ago, there are some on our answered questions that could point to the idea of an accomplice. so you know there's a lot out there that be using twist and shot at me, which I point out, but you know you have to get around certain things in a very problematic, such as the fact that it was scientifically proven that one of the side rails of the ladder came from opposite cabinets. That's just not reputable, and you know that got the money he he he was caught with the money that they tracked yup
yeah. I mean there's so much pointing to him. His lifestyle changed from to much more affluent lifestyle. Ah, right after the ransom is paid, he quit his job the very day the ransom was paid. I mean these are all things that you are hard to explain away, but the let the one piece about it and why I titled my book happens later the one piece of evidence. It has never been repeated. and even professor garden notes in his book. I don't recall images and art in the soccer, but I know darn well. He mentioned it in hardcover that the latter is the one piece of evidence. It's never been successfully reviewed, even he who rules takes a very different conclusion: it better. That has never been refuted and that's why titled the book, what I ought to get a proper grip. My sister came up with the actual title. I wanted be something with the latter and she came up with how about your help with laura jacobs letters of the year and then I added in step by step as a little pawn so cause I wanted upon in the title is just might
sense of humor, so he maintains his innocence. Literally up entails execution his wife. So maintains his innocence. She guys, however, I did make an interesting statement. I want one or one of the things they did and this would not be permitted today, but in those days you could get away with it. When halpin and his wife would speak english speaking german saw the war several ah state troopers. including one in Hugo stockbroker, who was the second to last person bob in the case to pass the last was apple stock among the jurors, but they spoke german. So what they did is they would have german speaking,
the troopers there and they would listen in while the last while hop and his wife spoken german and he would record them well in one of the conversations happen native statement that they that they might let me take a handwriting test again and anna, and I often suggest to him a note, make sure he isn't the exact one. I'd have to pull up a report, it can be exact quote, but basically tells him discard your hire him a chance, if you could change the flat of your hand right now, you could say: well, that's just yelled a she knows: they've identified it to change it, but- and I don't think Ghana was involved, but she wasn't a fool. I think in the back of her mind she may have been. She may have
what he said: some involvement, maybe in the ah the extortion part of it cause a lot of people thought it was a separate extortion plan supposedly kidnapped himself. I don't, but some do enough, but that's an unusual statement for me, but other than that. Every statement she ever made was that especially the when she maintained that until she died, you just think there's so much other information out there. That's why people go down so many different rabbit holes or d re. Do you think that just people like We live in a world where it's a little bit more magical, mysterious and the truth depends on the individual. I've always thought this is my purse in that moment and came up with the that limber did it to sell books, The truth of the matter is: did you write about this idea that says that the person who could get it was guilty? While you know that's nice,
get the true crime. Aficionados will get the block, but you know a lot of the newspapers may or may not cover it. However, if you come up with a novel theory, there's a book that just came out the last year about the san francisco zodiacal and the man who wrote the book came up with the theory that it was his adopted father group or his biological father to the dead and every major media covered this. You suspect, you suspect, if you come up with a book, says the person convicted didn't do it, for you probably suspect, that's going to get attention and if the older press adage dog bites man is news, but man bites. that. Isn't he so some people, I think, will like it works and will do very just so seldom dislike the jack, the ripper shopping that just came up, I've, gotta, haven't
I've read a lot of books of magic baton, case book and I don't think it'll ever be solved. But oh I'll give you were right. I guess you actually read with his look at it. It is a new suspected they Definitely do something like that's exactly it now. Other people are, you know, like a white may have written a book because they actually think into it. I fully believe Whenever we should do what is booking ninety seven, he said he was convinced happened in europe. now understand, and I think that the archives that what we have now they weren't they didn't exist in nineteen seventies if they were open because ye help and got involved with ontario san francisco and Brian who again if ignited took advantage of it, but he's an attorney who is very much anti debt, though he apparently thought strongly that album the spring he climbs and equipment at a new.
the article claimed he didn't get it. He was going to review it, but never did, but I guess he didn't get the movie deal, but anyway there was a series of federal lawsuits filed and the lawsuits were dismissed, but the governor of new jersey why would you take relational what put together this evidence, and so people can see so they get so she could do no didn't have access to all and he had stories from some people here. It had been around at the time and said: oh no, he didn't do it yet have some urban legends, but he didn't have access to the type of materials that we do now and based on what he had access on. I might, as I did reach when I was an eighteen year old kid. I wasn't in mixtures journalists, but still I can understand why he reached a conclusion as you do that time, and he really thought he was innocent. He was putting it up and I don't think he pulled out yourself
I think that's what you really believe now essential nordic was ever having had the opportunity. The sums doesn't he maintains his opinion. I don't got his stubborn, but I did he go because that's what he believed- and there are people out there- there is a person who has a website. Name is michelle wie DU spela? That's all she ever looks at seems to believe in the monero, through that limburg. It ok. I think she honestly believe her website jackson. The website has up a lot of original materials on it and it sides to a lot of different things. I haven't seen her cycle. Michael shame, shame shows sick book, but regardless it's an excellent website too many times it has to be original source materials are usually something new comes out. She puts it up there and I learned about the cemetery Johns book coming off because she
I think she's a true believer some people, you believe, as others just want to sell books, it depends on the individual. Mister. warne- believes in the fair adhere. Absolutely one hundred percent lose it. He wrote it because he believes it. This was something his father believed and when was father taught him about it. After his father died, he felt compelled to write this and you know what I understand that completely. it's passing on what his father taught him and his father believe he ended his own researching now, having lost my own good, not it'll, be three years in February. I can understand that very much some an ood bought. It wasn't what they believe young and he's by no means easy. Just looking for cheaper buses, the real nice guy we usually grown. So depends on the walker. Some of them are just looking to make a quick buck. Some believe it. Some are trying to pass on
Something has been given to me depends on what you know and I'm look I'll be honest with you. My my decision was to write a book have two parts. One was what I told you, which was what I was trying to convey. What I wanted the book to be about, but I'd always wanted to write a book about something I could to prove. I could do plenty to write a book to write. A good book is not an easy thing. It takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and even after you've written you have to go back and you have to draw the revisions. You know, and it's amazing it. After a while you start reading it, you forget, geez. I wrote this: because it's just you see it so often, even in barney sit back and reenact a couple points, and this is gonna sound, so arrogant, I don't mean it to be with a cup of course, when I, after the book came out, I just started looking through a gallon. Damn that's pretty glib when I wrote that it just it you've seen so many times you become superior, it's such hard work but yeah I wanted to prove to myself. I
I actually wasn't really worried about whether I got it published that wasn't it. But if I got it That was the icing on the cake, and then be going up a little tangent The reason why I would venture to push ahead publishes very personal in very similar situation is one I had finished my it's mom, but I knew I had added him to him and then my dad passed away February. Fourth, twenty draw- and I was very close- and I was just so devastated- would be an understatement and I was jan trying to get through it and I just got you questions first christmas, wrong, I'm starting to twenty two june, and I I needed something really brought myself into and you couldn't be work because becoming an attorney was something
very special between the deck was his father, but an attorney, and he was going to be injury, but his father got sick and my dad decided to drop out drop out of school and forget being an attorney go to work support the family. Not today, a lot. He understood people to do that, but a lot of people chow to worry about. You know the folks will go on this. This so No one is one that there's nothing wrong with people who need We got her down in the water. My dad was one who said you know what now I'm a legally an adult he gwot were under the dunes in his mind with the ripened, and he never spoke of it. That way, I you know, I bring it up with appealed. This is impressive. He says women who wouldn't gop do this to help their mother. This is what you dip in is not a behavior, but in any instance, so I needed something and I could. Lots of law. Really procedures will do so again,
when all all revise this won't. You also take me a long time and I get in a matter of weeks. yeah. No, I don't you another dream, what you did that again, so the law when it started publishing is trying published, show not all of the agency. That is wonderful letters. You know that essentially said it's a great idea. It's wonderful I'd, love to do it, but stick at urea based at work like this, and I thought. Well, you know what let me look at how this is done. So I went. I bought a book that talked about a publishing process why things have said was universally press. You have more control of your comment. But we know I want the exchange and not be europe. It's ridiculous things in the title one. So I wanted to try to university presses. One was ported university because I thought khan and taught there and there's never been a book by them, and I tried kent state university
was they have won the largest private collections on case around, and I didn't you they can carry a recipe for was initially interested Then later they read my managed getting you just now. We continue wasn't scaldings, didn't understand could believe that moving told him he's gone, but I think my theory is that they they saw how I conjure continent. You know my house betraying upon. Stopping here. No thanks I'll! Look at me. I didn't like it at all costs I for me, acquiring a europe whose data we'd like to look at it sure it can be said, is diminished of us sure I sent to ominous a by the way. Can we have exclusive rights and didn't get? I got nothing. yeah sure whatever to get all want the mere published a shop. When I got a book in my hands
It was time to destroy bittersweet because I thought to myself: I've done it. I've got the book and you know what, though myself a lot of this is because of dad, because I I wouldn't have pushed so hard, but then I thought you know what I want nothing warn the world assurance He, and so he was one of the most bittersweet moments of my life that I I accomplished. I had it in my hands, but the one of the one of the people. Would you like to share with you does anybody. I could was higher than I write thing. What it's a big risk my question: how to publish- and I know you I know where he is He knows all about it support, but I would love to say he didn't take a look at this one, but such is life. I guess you did it in abs. That's what matters in your life so no no, but it is a. It is a wonderful piano. You hold up new years. I got one minutes, it's pretty surreal and
I remember one of my wife's daughter. I don't know if she know I told her you were going through university press. I think maybe she thought it was more of a you know who is going to be like a You look a book and like a journal somewhere, article journalism is like to make a connection, while at pretty impressive is gas about tat s like a real work. Yes, we're locked but it was it was. It was quite a mama really was quite a moment. The title of the book is hartman's ladder and- and, as I tell read I've been trying to get him on programme for quite a while, because ever since I read it. I've been telling people to read it. It's just that good! It's a! I really enjoy books that lay down very factually the case, instead of
a ton of conjecture which I've seen books like that. This book is very factual, and I know that when rich- and I spoke for the first time- he actually brought up that the one error that people pointed out to him was something having to do with something he had written. That was not involving the case at all, actually so tightly. Remember what you think error the era we were talking about? they make it overnight, it has to do with our palm AL capone offer his service. is there the some some speculation about women's hiding? while he was in prison for two tax evasion and he offered his services and wisdom on, I had always thought that he died. In prison, that's what I didn't really research and because it was a that was a real tangy, discovered interesting thing. well, once you mismanaged,
They don't really need to out what I put it out there and I said well, I said something like in a footnote: he never got out of prison. In fact people quite happy. He did god hold whole, such an error. I am not going to run from an island, and I made the error has nothing to do with limber case. The other thing is actually something I did intention. and they say was inheritance. You want you smell schwartz, gotten schwarzkopf was the superintendent of new jersey stieglitz the father of slamming the arduous each moment, what's the reason for the era. They say that I make is spent the spelling of his name. I spelled it with t the traditional german, we w that we lay our tc caveat sharks, cop, which literally translates to black haired likely referring to dark here. Well, there are numerous documents that I found official documents. Spellings name with.
Most of the documents and mosses up. You see my patiently from new jersey. Please do not ask them to in it, and truth of the matter is short but did not manage to his father did the father's official obituary that I I found gusto. I've never found not able to get the budget to begin. Well, then, I'd love to see what he was named. He was born, but I probably should have wonderful rooms and I didn't he guess I thought will be apparent and it wasn't my sure if I ever do that, I want to point out version applauded rooms. I kept the g because a lot of people said well. The police were anti germ well because young, the fact was grant which help- and there was a lot of anti german senator stated that one between world war, one and world war, two well yeah. Of course there was, but when the superintendent of the police is needed,
what's your name, it doesnt blow as well. So I chose call it literally licence to keep the tea and I'd taken some abuse gonna, because many people who for very strongly the position haven't, do it they want to try to find some way to discredit my blocking we'll do without it. all attacks which whatever seemed about here, but they do this afternoon, I he doesn't even know it's wash up in smoke and with a t v. I know them It was literary licensing or some official documents in spanish, but in the end, Dude doesn't change anything, but now an high from it that something is in the balkan. Somebody asked her out there saying: well, you made a statement about the depression and talked about it prior to ninety twenty seven, I talked about depression with a loan esteem, not with a capital. The I know, one great depression curve doesn't mean they weren't financial, bad times of depression and prior to that, but he also talked with him. You get when you read a book like this.
we'll just agree with your gonna. Try to buy anything, I can do tacky because they want your theory, didn't write. Insides vicious. Some really really is vicious. Some of them. The serbian watching pressure in and about The warning from the others is really nasty. Stuff was stuck. He just got off lot more than just thought. Well, I'll be back now welcome to the internet yeah, which is why it's so nice to hear you made a comment about my book and say how nice it is. I like it. We'll head, but I gotta tell you feels good. You really is an impressive book. I'm I'm not just saying it because round the programme again about back to the original email, I mean it, and if I can get my money on the line, how can work I sent me an email saying that before I agreed to come on because you'd asked me at one point: I could do it right away. You said it then, and then Eventually, when I was able to do what I contact you and you still love to have you on and you did put that in and in the phone conversation we had to sample,
are you decided against you do now. I can say is definitely get the book there's so much that we cannot cover injustice in our view that is covered in the box? It's quite a rates are definitely pick it up and thank you rich for coming on. It was all right. Thank you. Thank you. So much.
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.