« The Generation Why Podcast

H.H. Holmes - 164

H.H. Holmes. Chicago, Illinois. Some murder to satisfy dark urges. Others kill out of passion. In the late 1800's, one man may have murdered for profit. Setting up shop in Chicago, Herman Webster Mudgett purchased a drug store and was said to have built a hotel in anticipation of The World's Fair. Much of his time was spent committing fraud, but people around him were constantly disappearing. Eventually, this would lead to his capture. Once his building was investigated, it was indeed found to contain trap doors, hidden rooms, & secret passages. People speculated on what the man now known as H.H. Holmes was up to for all those years. Is Erik Larson's book, The Devil In The White City, as well as the upcoming Martin Scorsese film of the same title, an accurate account? Was H.H. Holmes also Jack the Ripper? Mysterious Chicago's Adam Selzer joined us to to discuss this dangerous swindler and to separate fact from fiction. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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are you familiar with great chestnut right actually before we get rolling, we need do thank a couple of people or think some people. I should say we have a new theme song now and we used to use a song that just an I made back in ninety ninety nine. Under our musical project monsters. Now Andy
We also, I hope, I'm not butchering his name has provided us with a new version is inspired by the old song, but it's all new and it sounds fantastic. So big thanks to Andy, and then we also have to say thank you to Stephanie while their taylor and linux corolla of for crying out loud in a slight apology to them for not covering the case that they ve wanted us to cover for the last I dont know year. It's a very complicated case. No we'll have to that, upon the less and will have to sort out a waiter approach that case, hey, Adam, nay, would like you to introduce yourself what you do and you podcast and by day. My job is writing unpopular young adult novels for Simon and Schuster. The next one is called just kill me it's about a ghost or guide who find out that her company is making places more haunted by killing people. There is,
It only gives me occupied till about ten o'clock in the morning most days, I the rest of my time to work as a tour guide and historian here in chicago with a mysterious chicago dot com. I research all kinds, We urge a cargo stuff. I take people on all kinds of bizarre chicago tours. Cemetery, walk sub cry. insurers, hh holmes to her civil war tours occasionally it's hard to do in Chicago there's the town of lexington not too far from us, and there is like a a cannon ball stuck in city holler, some building down there and there's a for such a war to or you can take. Yeah it's it's harder here, because we didn't actually have any battles here. It's also the whole city burned down six years after the war. There you go, but you can do it back to hh home which is why we have adam on so Adam. You are saying that you wrote young adult novels by. Perhaps
written of a number of chicago history, books and nonfiction step as well. My my big project, the last several years, has been on our age age. Homes are the most interesting of our anti murderers ray arabian almost in homeless. I would say: probably you is now yet for a long time he was sort of forgotten about, but after devil in the wise city made him famous all over again. He really became a popular guy around here and especially in chicago for awhile. As you like, everybody on the elbows reading devil in the white city at the tour company, I was working for. I am wanted me to start doing devil in the wise city. Tourists are in. I read the book and started taking people of the places I could find, but then, when I started doing the research, it got really interesting, there's just so much data about this guy that was published in the eighteen nineties. That has been completely ignored. I love is just too hard for researchers to get their hands on her what's but though the real maria? What went on with the guy is not the same as what we normally here, and so I am finally putting all of this into one big book for skyhorse publishing that I hope will probably all by the end of the year or by the time the movie comes out anyway.
well, it's sorely needed at least based on what we ve been They get our hands on because its largely sensationalize as you'd. Let me or there's plenty of interesting things about homes where you don't really need to make anything up. No you really don't the stories, interestingly enough as it is, but the thing is eighteen, nay, even in the eighteen. Ninety is arose a lotta sensationalism going on. There was this one paper called the new york world really interesting papers a very entertaining paper. Anyway, it was kind of what you have one guy once described. That is what you would get if you cross the new york times with the national inquirer. They did a lot of really good, investigate reporting, the interviewed homes in his cell a few times, but they didn't have a reporter on Chicago and in chicago investigating the castle, but they publish this huge. Article about what the council is like than a diagram and had names of the rooms. Like the rule, the three corpses, the secret hanging chamber, the association chamber, the black closet, the maize eddie
Actually, in that article to those speculated, you know, this was right near that world's fair site. A lot of people went to chicago for that world's fair and never came home again. How many may have found their way into this holmes castle? That was that were that the whole idea that holes was killing world's fair paid wins came from that one thing and another: nineteen thirties and forties a bunch of pope articles quoted that line verbatim and that just became a part of the legend. All the newspaper articles were second hand from other news: newspaper articles, the ones the length of the renewed while the sky, the trick with looking it holds papers, and is why it's kind of hard to research, the guys and time is that there are a lot of different theatres of action here, his main based. If the operations during his career was in chicago, that's where he had the building that we now call the castle that was full of hidden rooms and secret passages of, but then he was also in prison in philadelphia. That's where his trial was in it's, whereas eventual execution was he operated in they'll do as for awhile for birth for a while, we would ask Will it ann arbor drew up in new Hampshire and the real trick is getting a news
papers that had a reporter on the ground like philadelphia papers are basically you analysts we're talking about the castle that had never borders there. They were just up picking piecing together, thing, second hand, but they were not very good information about the stuff. going on in philadelphia and in chicago, of course, is just the opposite. A lotta reporters were They read in the middle of the castle during the investigation. Police work was not that formalised at the time there was no police academy or anything. The chief of police had been on the job two months in his background, was selling flowery was strictly a political appointee in oak Clearly, in the thing, as only a general idea of what he's doing they just let report where's, follow em around and dig up on their own and handle all the evidence, and everything else h is infamous for being america's first serial killer less. So how is advertised yeah, yeah but chicago? I had other quote unquote serial killers before hh holmes.
but yeah. It depends on how you want to define a serial killer really. But if you use a broad enough definition to count homes, there was a guy named thomas neill cream, a few years before h, H, holmes. So hh holmes has, kind of an interesting past, though, because he grows up, he goes to medical school and where is he a surgeon or what's your? He knew really you you only actually practice. As a doctor for a couple of months and worse fork, new york after that he ran a drugstore for a while, but he was never really a practising doctor or a surgeon unless he was giving back room abortions, but he quite possibly was that you know that they don't really keep paperwork on that sort of thing, though that's kind of the set up there, I mean if every good sir killer needs to be a butcher or a surgeon. or some sort of you and an often you see biographies of him where it talks about his father being a horrible drunk, and this is not something that we actually know about and is just a pattern that we see in other serial killer. So people talk about homes that way,
no it's an established fact. He moves to Chicago. Now this castle the murder castle. That actually is built way before the the world's fair, oh, wait way before the vote it was a construction on it started in eighteen. Eighty seven before they even decided there was going to be a fair, so he just got okey location, wise, filthy Initially it was just a two story. Building that he put up with a borrowed money. He changed. Ownership of the things so opt is like watching a fat, a quick change artist cause he would have declined to pay the iron company or sour the architect, and they would come to get the money. So I dont get it for me. I don't know the building and then they to go around and around and arouse yo volume. In volumes of paper. Were hunters tough? It was it story building at first, but then the year before the world's very borrowed three thousand dollars from a guy on the second floor, to build a third floor onto it, then bought a whole bunch of furniture and furnishings on credit, but really the the
india was he was going to make it to a hotel for the world's fair, but I don't think he ever had ever really functioned as a hotel, but more we're more more than that. It was just an annex. Used to swindle people- do what he built was practically he'll. Like a paper machine facade so bottom floor, it was like shops like a candy shop, and yet there was a it's a drugstore that he operated for a while before selling it, and it was always in and out of it, a restaurant next door. To that, then, on the wall, the street side, there were, you know it was like an early of a strip mall really and then the second floor was long term apartments. Not a hotel yeah. I was people lived there for years. At a time like the lorens has had three or four rooms, the kremlin's had a couple, a room, so woman, a beardsley, lived there for a while. It there's a pretty good list of exactly who lived there over the years and then the third, four would have been the hotel, but did any are ready Lee yeah. Did anyone actually stay at the hotel during the world's fur? Not that I really been able to find out Honestly, I mean we know that the whole set fire to the third floor,
in our august of eighteen. Ninety three like dead in the middle of the fair and the fire there were lake half a dozen people in the entire building, mostly people who live there time. So other sure you I'm not really sure anybody actually stayed in the place that that's kind of the bomb drop There is the level willie idea of him was that he had this murder castle hotel that he was bringing patrons into and murdering them in disposing of eyes the owl really. I think he was just by putting this facade of a hotel. He could go to all the furniture companies and the lumber companies and the crockery companies and the betting companies and say hey, I'm building this hotel. You ought to give me a few thousand dollars worth of goods on credit and then I'll pay it back. Once the fare starts said he never paid in he would hide him in all of these hidden rooms and secret chambers and seldom for pennies on the dollar, but it was all profit to him, so he actually did have secret rooms and chamber, so that partner, aware yeah stories, kind of true pretty bars.
Was like a secret passenger mozilla got over the trap door in the bathroom and will lead us to a staircase down into the. out into the down into the drugstore area, there was like a hidden chamber sort of like in between the first and second floor were than we do it wasn't that secret of the drug clerks slept in their most of the time but yet there were some hidden rooms do when he started hiding furniture and there he would like wallpaper over a door, but there wasn't like a a trash shoot drop where he would hang people in their body would be hanging in the basement. could go down there and dissect them. well conveniently they theorize that he could have. There was a shoots that led down- nobody wouldn't have been. I dont think particularly uncommon. Just for garbage wicked likud. I think it was actually the dumb waiter for the restaurant and
was it for awhile when they first started, investigating the blaze after it turned out that holmes was a murderer if the city knew about this place right before the fair. There was this whole article about this weird build a building full of hidden rooms where the guy was hiding all the stolen furniture after the bodies of a couple of his victims were found in eighty. Ninety five people, rep remembered hey This guy have a building back in Chicago that was full of hidden rooms and then, for about a week there was a thing, We found a rope. Maybe he was hanging people we found a bench. Maybe this was the dissection table without You know, there's a wheeler, some weird oil tanks and opens down in the basement to oil tanks mostly, but if they could cut it was There is enough going on in there that they can use their imagination and theorize all kinds of weird stuff. When we hear oil tanks, I mean I was reading and watching documentaries that he had believed in acid tanks and he had a creek crematorium down. We always say that yeah well, is that they will go to the other big. Or is that he had a guy named charles chapel that he would sell the skeletons. Does
bodies due to be turned the skeletons rageous, all the bones, and but they always get the guy's name. The guy's name was myron chapel. He did show up while they were investigating his. Is it hey? I used to buy all these dead bodies from the guy that I turn into skeletons discovered. The medical schools do if you dig over in this corner, you're going to find the acid vat. If you dig over in this quarter, you're going to find the bleach fat and those stories got ripped you didn't newspapers all over the country. What what they didn't always repeats was the fact that the story turned out to be nonsense and backed up apparently that what what what really happened with it was the guy I had a skull and his back yard. He did apparently work occasionally as a gallon articulated in years past any of this one body he didn't bother to articulated he painted the school red and hung it from a tree in his back yard. And somebody is that during the investigation and alerted the cops and the cops got the guy good and drunk, and then he started talking, he told all the oh yeah I bought. I bought bodies from there. He took up a row with it when they
look up where he said they did find a tank. What will they opened? The tank Although isn't it was a bucket of crude petroleum, there is No evidence of acid in the thing really and not the other place that he said the dig they didn't find anything at all. It's possible. The guy might have articulated as governor do, but he was not what you'd call a reliable source, but he's these so the acid test story, who doesn't have a red school painted in their backyard right, and I heard that there was a little mishap when they were investigating these tanks in the basement. Yet this one, it was. It was out underneath the back of the play, see the eve knocked out a wall in the base, but there was a big gas tank. Hidden back behind it was, is kind hearted described that things like a double rainbow shaped oil, tank and energy. This was that they were doing the investigation, a guy busted right through a they smelled. All the noxious odors coming out decided we better get out of here for a while and when they decided about a dissipated
with enough another guy went down and said: I'm going to get a better look at that thing. All light a match, so he lit imagined big explosion to several people were hurt pretty badly then the next game, as I will all just taste, some of it- hence a guide dipped his finger in had a good look and, and then he had to go up to the drugstore and recover. This isn't painting a very pretty picture of these people back then know how to they live. How did they make it? I have no idea how these guys even manage to cross the street in those days. That's that's the real mystery. Homes was married a few times a few times. Yeah the first all woman named clara when he was seventeen in new hampshire somewhere along the line about eighteen, eighty, six or eighty seven. There is not really a reliable date for it, but he married a woman named myrtle zoo leak bell map. I think that was your middle name of god like what art that says it everything else, just as murder, Z, but I've never found anybody else. Names zoo leak, it's very interesting name and
married her in minneapolis. They moved to chicago together she kept the name homes for the rest of her life, I'm not really sure she ever decided. She believed that a whole was entirely guilty. She admit later that she knew that he was into some swindling operations, but I don't I'm not sure she ever quite accepted that he was a murderer and he had a daughter were threatening, lucy and then a couple years later, he might have had a fake marriages to a couple of women in between buddy the next official one was a woman named Georgiana yoke that he married in Denver She was in Indiana woman. He who had been working department stores in Chicago she ended testify against him at the trial. But murder was wife. Number to murder was number two. Wasn't she the most law you wouldn't you say I would say she was the most loyal yeah it's. like other women sort of through whichever me a moment ago, by their clearly losing one, never clearer the first one ever really said much
she you know even like we after she could have. She lived and I just found out she lives into like nineteen. Fifty six while she was like you lived into her nineties till way after this guy had become a legend, but she never really talked about. But all anecdotal report, like a bad report, say that she was devastated after he was found guilty of murder did larger reporters a couple of times and she kept saying you couldn't have been that bad abbe. He was so good with animals. He was good with the kid and on the occasion that he was in the house, and I just just finally got around to reading the scarlet mentioned that the novel based on holds for the nineteen eighties. Alan edgar wrote it what's in it fascinated me, because it's real Lee well researched. I mean it's very, very sensationalize, but this guy clearly got some He obscure sources. You know every newspaper article anecdote looks like he was even sort of familiar with the law suits it. Everything Annie the way you
told the story. Murder was entirely complicit in all the crime. She and her whole family were out like a family of swindlers, which eda its total fish shit, but on the other hand it would explain a lot as he dragged up only through so many lawsuits over the years. He he gotta wonder how we manage this for so long yay, because he included thereof It is like father and laws and yeah it I dont know how he could get get away with this. You think what a shot him at some point, yeah I can just demand- is owed to pay her work thing, you know I'll, take care of it, don't worry about it and that's what it comes down to is. He was He was, he was a con artist. He was smooth yeah, he did cons with you know getting the building built. He he didn't yell for the iron. He he got furniture and materials. He what? What about the him taking cadavers from the medical school and then putting insurance policies on them and cashing those, and was that ever theirs.
And there's stories about it. So when there's a big log one in his autobiography, they go off into this weird tangent, where he steals a body from him but gets a body from a medical school to take it to grand rapids to sell it's a weird leg of one guy once recruited, one of those ripping yarns from boys own stories, magazines, where than other secret service agents. Their greedy express benny narrowly survives a train wreck, but I dont think he actually wrote that section himself. I think the editor probably wrote that one in He himself actually wrote to the editors, the publishers that I didn't write that part take that out, which, which admits is kind of a boy who cried it's kind of thing, but guy lied so much it's hard to believe him on anything but the the kind of rule I've got about his or whether something is really written by him or not as if it's particularly readable, it's probably not really by him wave of the world. The the joker
as big here's, how homes rights is, and so I put three calls into the stove. There were not a four calls, as some of the newspapers have asserted, and certainly there were not five goals unless you are using certain formulas known to mathematicians at least four glances at the university of Chicago who have it in their files, by which evidence can be stated that a five as equal to three but in this case It was only three and it was not to accept that there were also a third had such a weird speaking pattern back them very, very circumlocution of aid. There's the famous line about him start a vote in believing he starting to resemble the double that some, it's very punched up. He did say something like that in his confession, but it took him like nine paragraphs to say it we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsor, which is audible, just go to audible, podcast, dot, com for such generation. Why and choose from a hundred eighty thousand titles download a free title and start listening. It's that easy. They offer a thirty day money back guarantee.
And a thirty day trial. Membership. Current book, which is sort of a no brainer for this episode, would be the devil and the white city by Eric Larsen, based on the true story account of hiv homes tat is going on in the chicago area. During the world's fair, after reading the book, it does really into the fare un and the historical times and hh holmes is a character running through this story, but it really focuses more on the historical aspects of it and that's what I found that I liked the best about the book or go out to audible, podcast, dot, com forward, slash generation Y and get started today. Yeah. We should clear something up real quick, because some people out there are big regurgitating things that they heard from whack cylinders of a man speaking that was supposedly h, h, homes, right
it was I'm sure they'd ever let an actual recorder into their in the in a couple of weeks before he was executed, but there's a wax cylinder that was going around. It was in all the phonograph parlors they had back, then of a guy the famous line from homes is a confession, and I was born with the devil in me: the evil, one areas The you sat by my sponsor is my at my bedside has been with the ever, since I could no more help that I was a murderer anymore than a poet can help the inspiration to sing and dance, was an excerpt of his confession that were published of apple, a philadelphia paper. that didn't spring for the actual confession that he wrote, actual line is a really in there that the paper privileges, I think they'd, probably saw an early draft of the confession and then kind of rode up there. based on the frankly, they improved on a considerably less You know he didn't have anything that good in quotable ends in his actual confession. Every documentary I've watched is wrong they always go without limit of. You dig up the convention that
roper, the philadelphia inquirer in the new york morning journal that line doesn't appear in it. There is a thing of the other one be other popular one. Is that he's starting that he believes that, because of his crimes, he is now starting to resemble the devil. He does see that, but it takes him like nine paragraphs, two to it so basically unquotable. I just got a fellow, rational will. That do is that you mentioned that I, as a as a novelist the novelist hall keynes, said that I resembled the double recently and all keen was a very popular novel. Is that the time is you know, nobody reads is stuff anymore. Frankly, he looked more like the double than homes ever did, but he's supposedly visited homes in prison. I have a couple of newspaper. Reporters talked to him about him. He didn't say anything like that. He just said that I was really freaked out by the guy, but he didn't look like a murderer to me. Let's, let's talk about some of the victims, because are Your ranges from twelve twenty seven two hundred euro
but what I am forever over. A thousand several die while a job that we no uh, there's nine or ten that are generally agreed on a beyond that. There's a number beyond that that I think distinct. Maybe he's he confessed to twenty seven, but three the people are three or four the people to confess to killing were still alive. At the time more than eighty one of my one woman walked into their local post office. I want to issue a statement I have never been murdered now by j jobs, not by anybody else. That's kate, turkey, that was kate, dirty kate. Turkey is awesome. She did this will Shi Ite. I thought for the longest time that she was rather dim up. She was she her name on an awful lot of homes of paperwork. She was the official owner of a number of his buildings and what she would
eventually explained to the newspapers as well. You know I'm a friend of his wife and he would offer me some money if I just put my name on this paper work and I have no had were business, so I just trusted him and that always seen you know, veto plenteous, more people got dude by age angels, but that's really because gonna portraying yourselves and innocent victim, but a while ago I, Couple law suits were wondering: somebody's. It was suing almost thought that this kate dirty person was not a real person, so they actually went through to overhaul at hello lou you, they typed out the transcript of her cross, examining most of the time. These things are hand. Written, it's almost impossible, read some of whom, but she comes off real bad, as in his things I m so did age, asia, give you the money for the buildings at? I got my money. That age homes give you the money. Declined. To answer that. Why do you declined to answer that? Because I do- and this goes on for four hundred questions-
Well, so all of a sudden she goes from. Maybe somebody that wasn't duped by homes, but somebody that had a backbone that couldn't be duped by home yeah. That's this kind of a pattern. You see the people that he confessed to killing. Where people did, he tried the dupe in failed. So in his own mind he killed them. They had them you use is that it is a pattern. I've noticed just recently when I'm trying to put the timeline of everything together as his habit of getting petty little revenge on people now and then they got up. I think all of us Patrick will enable were going to talk about what a visible at henchmen patrick quinlan. This guy was like the eager of the castle. He works All those years I can delicacy was is job was to look around acting all spooky, but of the newspapers. Brenda police are spent
the police just laid into this guy. They kept him in interrogation him and his wife, both for three weeks of actually the the they they tried to sue the police over and eventually- and you know they were pulling all kinds of tricks like they would walk into mrs quinlan cell and say your husband just admitted that he cheated on you now. Will you confess what he did and you know threatening to have them both hanged, all kinds of stuff, I I think, holds genuinely felt bad about what was happening to quinlan. He wrote A couple. A letter to the papers say leave this guy alone, me wrote letters to ten genital people who woods us mean things up. I'm saying if you're gonna rag on somebody rag on me, and so they originally found out was that of quinlan would always notoriety came up? I can't remember the guy's aims of it, as I think it was a new york, but he was working for a guy named as york and when all this notoriety came it s, york fired one of homes as last act before he was hanged, was wrote a letter to achieve ballenach in chicago, saying: ok, here's my real confession and what he confessed was that he had killed two people. One of them was
had killed her while performing an abortion honour at a building owned by a guy named s york, just like a little one. Little thing to make the guy look bad so was his association with homes really He was a janitor and handymen at the castle. Building ok got kind of right. You know he was sometimes described as his right hand, man, but the stories about him got so wild now and then that is kind of hard to tell exactly, and he had other quote unquote. Henchmen are employees. Due to a number of them yeah, some, some of whom knew more. What was going on than others. There was a guy Joe owens who worked there and eighteen ninety three and he told everyone- oh yeah, he told me all about how they were, but he he was keeping this woman in hiding because of the insurance, and he told me that if everybody came in as for Hs Campbell, that was me hence ha
Campbell who wanted as many? What do we have? One of his many aliases I've tried to compile a list of all the alias is in order right now, it's a bit so dozen or so well, most people home is h homes. He started off as herman Webster much it urban Webster much. It is first wife marries herman Webster much it. His second life marries h, h homes, but his third wife marries a completely different person. Yet I married a henry mansfield howard and she knew that wasn't his real name she knew that he normally went by used to go by holds out the what he told her was that he had had this, which uncle named henry mansfield howard, who had left him all his money, plus his ranch in texas on condition that he changed his own name to henry mansfield howard? So we can live on so is yes, it was a dream, would live on and also many williams, one of his other victims that I think thought she was a wife. She knew him his hairy, gordon I think she do that. Wasn't his real name too,
then nobody. I took took Georgiana that last wave down to four worthy started operating under o c pratt, and he told her, oh, that because there, you know squatters on my uncle's ragin. If they find out henry mansfield howard is here them they're going to kill me. I think what would he went dead texas after luncheon I'll, I really think he decided he was gonna become a cowboy outlaw for a while. It seems that he had so many cons going on at once. So I dont know how we can. I don't know when he found time to kill anybody. Honestly, every time I go to the legal work I find ten more lawsuits about amid it's got a tricky to fight of the what they ve got there. They ve got this up like a couple of micro. Film reels the list all of the law suits the guy. You know the than the names and the number of them. Then he fell at you fill out. The new in number than eight go to a warehouse in a few days later you get all the paperwork, and the trick is Not only was in his own name. Sometimes there under age as Campbell are sometimes there under his mother and laws. Name. Sometimes there under one of his lawyers, names or them just eat it.
Sometimes just take a list of names of people. I've been looking up and the things and just look up and see if there's a lawsuit between them and somebody else whose name I recognize from old stuff. That's probably gonna turn out to be about him. Was there any truth to him? in people and selling their bodies back to the medical net. could entirely be confirmed. Nomads of this the treaty. I would say that he got he got rid of the people who would have been killed in the council so thoroughly that you know other than a couple of bones in the cellar. They didn't really find. Anything apparently did a pretty good job of getting rid of the evidence in that place, but then again with the other three pints of children that he killed the ones that they egg of led the bought the bodies that they eventually found me. There is a thing the spread of his awhile ago. One of his articles for the new europe world. Saying hey, I'm supposed to be a pretty smart guy right. Do you really think I'm pretty
Smart guy would have buried two dead bodies in a three foot hole in somebody's cellar and not expected to get caught. You know that's a fair point or he did a really bad job of getting rid of those kids' bodies, but at the same time I mean as much as he is a con as much as he is a liar. Oh yeah. He is like he's a mess to you. He seems to have been kind of a mess, and just you know I don't really I the more I dig into the more I start feeling like he was a very audacious swindler, but maybe not that good. A one better one wouldn't have so many mountains and mountains of paperwork and the legal archives club. I hate insurance companies. I I'll everybody does dealing with my car insurance, my health insurance, but this guy me They probably knew him on a first name basis, whatever alias he gave cause of all policies he had out on me the when the fire broke out
the castle in the middle of the fair he had policies, but they think for different places on it. Four or five had a fire insurance policy going a lot of paperwork about that out there too, yeah. He said: he'd figure it out. You know I could run a world's fair hotel, but I'd make a lot more money, just setting fire to the place and getting all the insurance. That's my brain exploded. When you say that is its lay, I thought the whole point of this guy was: he was a serial killer. He had people staying at the hotel, those were his victims. The hotel was a murderer device built strictly for his own, pino. Yes, it's it's kind of how the story girl they took the wildest of the newspaper theories. Do they came up with the diamond just started imagining those were all true and really it its rumours of things that he could have done now. He could have gotten rid of people- british,
only in that place and there were four or five different people who completely disappeared from the blaze and were never seen again. I would say that they probably killed them or had them killed some out in some manner and got rid of them promptly. Probably most like I would say you boys in them. Can we go over those individuals because there's share this? This set of people who probably worm murdered there, and then there are the rival it were murdered outside of their wish sort of led to his hanging yet can cover the ones in Kosovo the castle I was the first two of those who was a woman named Julia connor who came to the castle with her husband net and her daughter pearl. They came about teen? Eighty nine, the of coupled et and Julia started, having miracle problems fairly early on, I think largely because she was kind of openly seeing h, h holes on the side Eventually I dead, decided. Ok, I'm done with this will split up on the states. I guess there. Their divorce papers have been law,
I've tried to order a couple of times he kept on work. Off and on for homes where he would run into them and every, but everything seemed fairly cordial, but Julia kept on living in the castle. Homes got her involved in several of his various business operations, and she lived there for about two years with her daughter, pearl and then in the car buzz of eighteen, ninety one julian pearl just disappear from the record completely and homes would end what what tones would tell people. I heard she went to Devon iowa or something lose an interesting. I got to do a while ago trying to backtrack. Everything is one of her neighbors said that on christmas of eighteen, ninety one she was about to leave to go to davenport to go to her sister. wedding at a dig up located. One of her sisters was a whatever scissors about to get married and lo and behold, one of whom was, but Juliet never arrived, for the wedding pearl was never seen again. Julie was never seen again the letter land. On with this is homes probably got her pregnant and killed her while doing an abortion honor.
that was one of the police theories of the time. It's what homes himself said at various times of we know that he told one of his lawyers duty duncombe. He told dd duncombe deal that he had killed Julia and I can. I can just easily imagine saying: oh yeah, I was poor performing an abortion on her and she died other than oh yeah murder that girl it takes some of the responsibility away from him. Yeah is that you kind of like a more easily see him admitting weather and then pearl of as well. But you know most likely, I would say poison. You said this in the past and if people reading your books they'll find it, but he lies so much yeah maybe lying about that as well, even though it doesn't matter absolutely, just one way that he said that he killed that he that he killed her? He said that he's told the story a few different ways towards the end. There, it kind of it's me of the dark night where the joker
explains to everyone how he got his smile right. By have to have a past. I wanted to be multiple choice. The corners go missing. Those those too probably the first people killed in the castle. There was a sound revolved, the one they usually talk about the police made a big deal about was on the third floor and us where they said they found a footprint on the wall on the inside wall of it had been. The thing is that plan that was built very, very late, that was built right before homes left Chicago the down. On the first floor there was another vault was nearly sound prove there was one time I wouldn't it was working in the drug store where there were the ball. Was homes came in with a bunch of gentlemen for the neighbourhood were brandy and cigars or whatever, and they said that hey. Why don't you get in my vote? any yell is loud as you cancel, everybody can hear the disown proof and ned got into the boy yelled is loud as he could. I guess there was a faint sounds that could be heard, but can you think a one
practical reason he would want your walk involved to be sound proof. Will I like to listen to dubstep, really last, I'm sure homestead too. Of course I want to disturb your neighbour. right, so you he would lock people in your eyes Support is one possibility of what he could have done. You know you could have taken a number of chemicals and noxious gases and shut up into their. But what said is that there is, as other woman who was introduced to him by his henchmen and her name's, leaned, so grand emmeline scrambled out here on the line. I think he actually met her just officer to employers, a typewriter and her story. It's real Where the warrior dig up the details on her, the weirder it gets. Really she can do the castle la belle may of eighteen. Ninety two about five months Juliet her daughter disappeared ass. She did live in the castle she worked. There add up.
Only was having an affair with holes. She was having an affair with somebody homes would be my best guess Some people have also said it might have been one of homes as other henchmen or something that they all available. Evidence really points to homes, but the I'm so that every seems like every time she told somebody who she was dating. She gave a different name to its some things. I think She was acting kind of like a woman who had a secret. So I think she it's seeing him on the side, and he was saying: don't worry, I'm going to get a. I am not legally married to that woman up on the north side or I'm going to get a divorce from her. You and I are going to run away together and then towards the end. She started seeming suspicious. She met with the lawrence's. Her neighbors are the neighbors in the building. The ones who were at the time were loading homes, all the money, and she Well, you know I'm digging a leaving this place and they said well, you know I don't they homes could do without you issues at all. He could if he had to end ensured that was about the last time they ever saw december of eighteen. Ninety do you see spent
at of time with doktor lords, his wife YAP issue. They were good friend, labour, good friends and warp and out this woman wouldn't just disappear like they ass. She wouldn't just disappeared, but it was about almost exactly a year from the time that julian pearl disappear. yeah so as december of eighteen. Ninety two yeah- and you know, is that It's weird when holes first became famous in eighty ninety four, when they first arrested him just as a swindler and but he was in newspapers all over the place. Nobody really mentioned Emmeline, even when they digging up the castle, the lawrence's were still around and they they said all we've been saying for a long time that there's something weird about emmeline disappearing, but they never went to the cops or anything a wheel. No, but we only found out about a because one of her cousins. A second cousin averse named doktor, be J c grand who, unlike the mention of a little more to second went to visit. Her
If she was there, they had never really met, but he was into genealogy. So he wanted to meet all his relatives and he walked around the castle and the italy where the process of building the third floor and he thought it looked like a real dump off and then a year. So later he was reading the newspaper in it or three years later is like it looked at the drawing of the building in the chicago times herald at hey. That's the building that I was in intolerable. I was I've been wondering what happened to her her dad wrote me a letter and I just I well I heard she got married and so bin laden than they went to the police and it was a kind of one of the more clear cut cases woman who clearly disappeared from the castle. A bog doktor be J c grand it is not enough Ding guy was a dentist in worker park in Chicago he wrote a book called the rise and fall and revival of dental prostheses in eighteen. Ninety, two sons, ironing yeah we're EL. It is so I've been reading some really bizarre books from people. while characters in this case, but a few
years later. There was another case in Chicago: were the sausage maker burger were a guy? Boiled is wise body down in a sausage, curing bat and the the there they found a couple of tea the occasional pieces of sky of bone in a ring with her initials on it is a very early keys of using a bone. Fragments is forensic evidence and an attempt to save the guy's neck. Guys. Lawyers accused the police of getting false teeth to plant their from doktor, be jason, grant and doktor beaton grand is also injured. History is the father of flag day he's like the forest gump of crime and patriotism. I always wondered where flag there came from now those of shit you gonna win a lot of trivia questions and barbara that information. I would never go to a bar tribute here with your perception. It's very special the information that I'm good at european level,
it even more interesting book lately. Last time it was at the archives. They found a suit between our homes and a guy named herman h, hopf, hh holmes, vs, H, H, Hof and all the since there is, like a summons, say: little homes is being sued for ten thousand dollars. The really say why, but I looked up dot urban have, and it turns out here the father of de hoarding cattle. He was big crusader for de horning, your cattle. He wrote a book called odd hops, practical de whore, or every man, his own d horner, which is weird more entertaining or taking sounds because the guy is such a cantankerous old fart. He spends half of the book like ranting about his enemies and people who have accused him of not de hoarding cattle, properly or people who don't do horn their cattle properly and in which it was raised. We think that you don't you must have suing for ten thousand dollars. Does homes wouldn't get off his lawyers? Have I almost thought that that was this another home alias anyway suing self and somehow trying to figure out how to get see, asked to pay the yet that there are a couple.
Lawsuits on. While I m pretty sure he was involved in both sides about trying to free up money from a company or something so we covered the corners and we covered sir grandmother emmeline that's next three. Just to that brings us to many and Anna Williams. I guess many was a woman. He apparently met out in denver. The actual account How they met are rather varied and bizarre, but make any she came to chicago about january of eighteen, ninety three and seems to have thought that she was marrying whole mozilla, she knew of his dark as a doctor Harry Gordon, the her name's on the paperwork this as a jewish homes that I think that she must have had some idea of what was going on. He started a lot of real estate into her name in may, he rented an apartment, the north side for her and her sister. She had written to her sister anna and said: hey, I'm going to marry this wonderful guy named Harry Gordon and then we're going to go to europe. Why don't you come visit us in Chicago and then maybe even go to europe, europe with us and the scene?
lived in this department is man and wife. They were telling everybody that they were married, then right after the fourth of July. I have eaten ninety three. Both of them just disappear off the map and I just want a mini williams laws- do we identified the house that he built for murder was officially owned by many williams? According to the deed and the day, a three days after she would two or three days after she was last seen alive, a large loan was taken out in her name payable in five years to horace Williams, your brother, who had been dead for three years by them. How do you keep track of all of this outcome? I have no idea what I say two or three years it might have been, for it might have been one would to say, like butter house, but it the deed was in this other person's name. I mean that's, gets a little confusingly pursuing all you're not only get using while you have to leave these days work and others book. I've got a short deadline for it, so I'm doing sixty hours a day of the stuff right, how it's all pretty fresh in my head. You know it better than you know yourself now. This point four
leah. So some people have rumoured that she killed her sister because of jealous possible that railways, homes old story about it, yeah that was what homes old people early on that all ye. I came home one day. It is at all, then god you're here I got mad at my sister and killed her with a chair, and then he said that they do not put the body in the trunk look around lake, michigan and that was always is that was his story that he stuck with for quite a long time. I don't I don't remember if it was he that said it, but didn't he supposedly kill another doktor with a chair I'm not sure there is The latest, as these are these doors. There was a thing I think it is in his confession. He talks about a few things like that in his confession, like the resigning robert e lee clock, who had been in college with them that he confessed to killing, I can't remember if it was a chair or not you. I think it was one
other doctors, but what? What are the? What are the people at his confession from eighteen? Ninety six, which was full of all kinds of stuff that wasn't actually true ryan. Again, it comes down to all these stories that he tells now what about was it. Ned Connor, who had a sister debt homes may have killed yeah ned had a sister named gurdy aid already killed. It eyes ex wife and daughter, but he was still early friendly with homes and his sister needed a job as oh. What? What are you got to go talk to this guy, our homes? He runs a thing called the abc copier company now and the eighties copier company. There is the sheer amount of lawsuits on that when the sharing out of crooked dealings seem to be going on with had urged just through the trend. Makes sense it what's going on in the law such as goods, weirder and weirder weirder, but she what went there for a little while than she the store that went around later of second hand, sources that homes had been in a kind of seeing her on the side of that hey, I'm going to leave my wife and marry you. Why don't we run away together? As she said,
you and I'm going back to iowa, so she went back iowa and died about six weeks later and the guy worked with homes. As it is investor. At the a b c copier companies said hayward that dirty girl ago and said: oh, oh whoa, she went back to iowa and you know I heard she died. The gutter homes you've killed her at all, what makes you say? That's a literati confessed confess to having killed her, but when story. First went around that he had. There was a letter from her doctor and everything's saying no. She died of heart failure, though homes the story is that she had died right after getting back dial up really was several weeks later. But anytime somebody affiliated with homes like that dies a shit. Yet I always put her on the maybe list, but some people just put them on that for sure list yeah. Well, you gotta get up to two hundred You gotta get up, there's amount so where we met with the castle, there are five pretty good
the safety assuming that he killed many and anna at the castle, I that he could just as easily killed them up on the north side and that apartment ok, does that finnish the castle as far as what we believe his vat enlisted that seems to be about what we know about the victims of the castle, yeah, ok, so this Where are we going to live he has another henchmen name benjamin pipes, all who, as yet, was really an inventor. He dealt in athens. I dunno if he actually invented anything himself, but he worked as a a buying and selling patents off and on, and I think that's why they call him an inventor because he deals with patents and I think that's enough for most people anyway. Yeah people get that people get. the impression that he was an inventor, a measure that he ever invented anything. yeah. He looked more like the henchmen for homes, because home yes, more of a smaller man This man was much larger. He was, it was a
call really guy others, really not a flattering portrait of the guy out there. You know everybody who knew it mostly. Has tourism drinking pixel had a family by so how to family, yet a family of a wife in several children that you didn't know they move to chicago about eighteen, eighty eight and he involved working as a kind of a general handyman like the foreman of them, like the manager of the castle building. You would allow you to supervise the construction, tell people what to do then. Afterwards, he and hope well, this isn't as well known, but he had a home went to down to fort worth on our property owned by the wm, officially owned by the Williams sisters, that homes that you know forged some deeds to say he was now his and we know cause they were around to say no, it's not. He invites all got together and built another castle. on the block down there. There was a looked almost exactly like a larger version of the one in Chicago I just recently
with a diagram of what the second floor was like. It was the same thing, a lot of weird passages in a weird, not weird things in there, but really it was built strictly as a swindling operation. I'm not sure holmes ever even met, certainly never ran any businesses out of that place. He just built it and got out of town while he was four worthy got involved in all kinds of the same furniture, swindles and bicycle swindles. He always like swindling bicycle dealers and v so with this, will it ended up really getting in trouble? Is he also got involved as more stealing some force theft? He would, by horses, credit and then sell em for nothing and never make any payments. You don't do that in texas, you d don't do that in texas? No, but like, like, I said, I think what he went down to texas. He had decided he was going to be a cowboy and, like a lay, call so, Mr Howard, that was Jesse James zili and then he got from there. He drifted to see Louis with his eyes with his new wife, Georgiana got involved in a drugstore there never paid for anything. In that time they got him right in prison and is where he got in trouble is while he was in prison
He found himself sharing a cell with a guy named marian hedge path. Was a train robber, Annie oh, you know be in his. How will we value oh wow, a real trader robber? I gotta press this guy. So you told him hey and I'm a criminal too. I got those great idea: we're going to defrauded insurance company, we're gonna go out of it dulcea, with his guy Benjamin fights all that I'm gonna get a fake body and then we're gonna say that has been pight soul and then I'm in a cash. It is thousand dollar insurance money? If you I hope we get a lawyer to help with this. You know I'll give you a few hundred bucks, maybe help you get out of here, though, eventually or if I have hedged feathers, what kind of spilled the on those after this title and whole winter falada we're together, who are pipes all changed his name to bf perry and put up a sign in his window, saying a bf perry patterns bought and sold. Now. Imagine you put aside like that indira window. How long do you think you would have to go? before anybody knocked on your door. You I can't picture reporting on my door of I did there, but just by coincidence,
There was a guy in the neighborhood named eugene smith, who was a carpenter by trade, but he also liked to invent improvements for science and new sighing devices. There's a few different patents to his name on. While, if you go to google patents, find him, but he got nanos at hey. I've got this great new sighing invention. Maybe you'd to buy it or sell it, he went back and forth with him a couple of times and what time was there. He saw this guy. Who will you later realized was hh holmes holes walkin around? I can't really tell sure whether homes actually planned the fake piles death vital was enough of a drink or that it probably wasn't gonna be safe to trust him with information like that, so eventually just killed Ben pipes. All me ITALY got a down eugene smith wendy Is it the guy? The next day found him dead, upstairs homes and tried to make it look like an accident, but but the doctors figured all right away, was chloroform poisoning but for some reason the jury at the time said: death by accident and homes that
to the insurance company and said hey this guy, who was buried in philadelphia, the name be perry, that's actually benjamin vital, so You always widow? Ten thousand dollars all come, identify the body meeting Doyle. If I, the body, along with the lawyer, that a hedge petted hooked him up with and pencils daughter Alice, came out to identify the body as well gruesome scenes out of the potter's field. She only saw the teeth. They covered up the rest of it, but the homes you know got you know grabbed the rubber gloves and got right in there saying: okay, here's this mark of identification, which has cut that off right there. How? How did he get the daughter to agree to this? Maybe with money I have no idea they just I guess they just told her. You have to do this, it was gonna, be I guess the original plan was. It was going to be the guy's wife, but she we didn't how she was an up to it. She didn't have the held for as long as all your your daughter's fifteen she's old enough to handle this well and and there's a tenth.
Dollar pay out so yeah, which which I don't think she ever expected. She was going to get much of almost all I what homes told her was this isn't really year for your husband's body out there he's down in south america someplace. So this isn't your money, the addison we're gonna use this to pay off the four worth property and she then I'm getting like three hundred dollars. Oven, there's some dispute over what killed them, whether it was chloroform or whether he was burned to death homes, confessed burning him to death. What he said is that it is a convention was a thousand with benzene and set fire to him and sat there watching him scream, but the bite. into the body. That's definitely not what happened. He did kind of a sloppy job. He killed it with chloroform. He pumped him all kinds of cult. Full of chloroform then tried to make it look like it urban accident, like singed as much dashes of his clothes, set up a pipe next to him and broke a bottle, a broken bottle of benzene like you, ve been lighting his pipe and causing explosion, and he had tried to
it could look kind of like he was an adventurer in there, so that might be where that comes from as well. But he did do that. Good of a job of like broke the bottle on the glass ended up inside the bottle, whereas with an explosion would have flown all over the place. This would come back to haunt him in the trial so you don't a fairly sloppy job of it, but the the insurance company got a letter from hedge path and guide us the smell rat. In any case, they started trot tracking homes. Holes at this point is where he got really yet other, even then district attorney was just kind of in awe of how he pulled the sofie started. Travelling around the country with a three groups at once. The eta his wife Georgiana one group yet up Alice the daughter plus two other siblings and another one, and then mrs by two other kids in the other one. All these groups for travelling around together completely unaware that the other group was near by
I got Alice and her siblings thought that their mother was often galva, illinois, someplace and the mother thought that they were in some whole other city, even really they were just a block or two away from each other. The whole time, but Alice knew that her father was actually dead until homes apparently decided that she had to die, and then she'd probably talks to her siblings about us that they had to go to the first one, Howard, the boy first in irving in india, in Indiana, rented a little house out there had a stove installed, brought him out there. We how he killed them is not really clear, but the odd the preponderance of evidence of that was probably either chloroform again her us or a strychnine or cyanide, if killed him than shoved the body up the stove and set fire to it out here, I know that that wasn't you can't cremate somebody in a wood burning stove. It just doesn't work like that, but he had then left town with all of the above all the bone still down and flew a trap.
with Alice and nellie for a while took them out to toronto, most likely killed them with cyanide as well, and he later said that he put them into a trunk and then gassed him and there's a lot of illustrations of him doing that. But the evidence is he was probably just poison. Then he dug a pit down in the basement, tossed the bodies about three feet down and then just loves down, but once again, very sloppy at this The insurance company was onto him. They were trailing him around that he kind of knew it and it kind of a weird twisty went back to new hampshire and went back to his first wife and he is better days with his old family and what we do. Is it a founder of the first newspaper articles it described as that it was a dark and stormy night when he showed up at his wife's door, The end of their actually was a blizzard that day, like the drove into the house and a blizzard when he told the was hey years ago? Here's what happened. I got hidden the head with a brick at the railroad. And I got amnesia, so I just remembered who I am now so here I am, I back again is not even a good liar. Isn't that good of a lie, but I guess you know being
dodger he might have been able to. He might have been able to explain that more plausibly than that, but that's the way they always repeated is that he got it in the head meet had amnesia met this new wife, add the Georgiana woman was the patroness of the hospital, which will certainly not true within a couple of later they arrest day, they finally tracked him down. They found out that he had a court. There is wanted to arrest him for the insurance fraud, but for some reason, the boss, and police didn't want to act on a coroners weren't. So they started they found out. He was also wanted for horse larceny in texas, so they arrested him as a horse thief. as you have been arrested as a horse tv, you know the he what you saw the insurance company present walkers at all, I see what's going on here, I'm not wanted were worst that I wanted for insurance fraud. Will I tell you what there's no way I'm going to texas to stand trial is worse these? Why don't you It is similar to philadelphia for insurance brought instead cause you're not going to hang, for.
At yeah you're not going to hang for that and me, he figured may be good two years and he was like oh yeah, I'm going to get two years, I'm perfectly willing to do that and he eventually pleaded guilty insurance bra, probably by this time about six months had gone by and everybody in the district he gave us said. Listen, we don't know where those are. You said the kids are off with some woman named mini williams. How do we contact them? I don't believe you, so he gave him all the information that he has. They put out ads and not the new york herald trot with it in us with a secret cove that was supposed to get her attention, but also they put a detective named frank guy on the case who started the tracing homes as footprints all over the place in july of eighteen. Ninety five, he found Alison lilies bodies bury down under that seller in toronto and is- and is that story broke the floodgates just open. Everybody remembered that hate this guy also had a building in chicago, pulled a secret passages, the reporters and the police just swarmed on the old castle building they started, calling it the castle and started digging. It upsets
and tearing it apart started interviewing all of the neighbors whoever a couple of weeks. The story grew and grew who who owned it at that point. At that point, was a jointly owned by a whole. Bunch of different creditors is so buried underneath mechanical means and mortgages. That point the main, The guy who owned the most of it was a guy named frank chandler. It was a big real estate, big shot and not an angle. What at the time so eight at home? hasn't been there, there's other only if he'd been out of her for about a year that to adapt in none of these people notice this man, or plays and bones in all the eu is, it was basically sitting abandoned at the time of the stores were still in operation. I think Patrick could quinlan was still living on the second floor laid on. Nobody went under the third floor or there was a good unsightly, temporary ruth and homes and put up after the fire, but it was just kind of sitting empty really, and this is where the
rumour veil and the digital, where yet it is this where they go through a wig of we found a rope, he must have been hanging people. We found tools, I have been using tools for something of it, but they also did find. You know that there was. You know what our sound roof walk involved. A jeweler Davis said he found some weird things in the stove they found they did funds in both very down in the basement they will probably the bones of pearl conner Friends ex that could have established a brochure were still a few years off at the time that other bones in the basement. Where it's one of those things were for every expert there's an equal but opposite experts, one person. say those were human, both the next year, they shown to say: oh, no, those are chicken bones or sheep bones, but at the time when we're doing all this digging in investigating there were people smile all around the building trying to get a look and sprawly yeah gather a huge crowds all over the place.
And let me know more of him then probably should have were able to break there- were able to elbow their way in the yo helped themselves to step out of the safe, because homes didn't pay. This train robber, his it might have been up to five hundred dollars, yeah that guy rats him out to the insurance companies, which ultimately leads the authorities to pick him up. And then, of course at the time he goes to trial. The other figured out. All of these stories have gone around. They found the bodies of Alice and nellie. At that point, the figured out- okay- maybe that really was benjamin pied soul's body. the potter's field is daughter identified at, but we ve got it. We also got the corridor here. Who said he thought that it was chloroform poisoning all along, so they put it one trial just for the murder of benjamin pilots, all under the district attorney tried to get trot tried to in the borders of the children as well, but eventually got thrown out. As you know, if do if we ever gets acquitted here, we can stand trial for that next homes that the
Well, your situation is one that kind of fell down or was another rabbit hole for me lately, as first lawyer here was this guy named William shoemaker, who had the more We, the trial, transgress, the more I realise what an incompetent goon this guy was on last day of the trial. He was, you know too nervous to go on. He passed there was. He was passed out in a drugstore. He was only like twenty five years old, but what he said happened was he had, but one homes was first in prison. He had got a knock on the door of his office and there was a mysterious man they're holding up an envelope containing hundred dollar saying please, this is a letter from an anonymous door. Please routine! Please retain your services for this h each homes, fellow and exactly who that guy was never explained if be even existed of those Just william shoemakers idea of a publicity stunt body up by heading up homeless, legal team with another guy was about twenty five years old, fresh out a law school named samuel, wrote, tat, wrote, ended a very good job. You would eventually become district attorney for lay with jobs.
for about twenty years that he did about as good a job as you could possibly do under the circumstances, letters that the thing where they were trying for the murder of benjamin pied soul, but Eugene smith, seeing homes walking around the building was about all that they actually had to establish. The homes have been there ever was really the only thing they could do, even if they could establish that. But that really was piled. Cylinder really was a murder, not a suicide corpses. action to it was really kind of shaky after them. Persecution made their case. The defence decided not to enter a case at all. It is You done such a bad job of proven that age old murdered this guy that we're just gonna quit. While we're ahead and most of the people want the key, the legal analysing stops stuff. You know you never can tell, but these things, but that that probably the best hand they could play. I think he's probably gonna get off the hook, but the jury convicted of about five minutes, but even before that, though didn't homes represent himself for about
day for a day he did. He had the lawyers came out and said: listen, we can't go on. If you can give us a postponement, we can go on me. They ve they're, bringing in all this evidence from toronto in Indiana. We don't have the funds to go and gather witnesses from these places. You gotta give us at least another sixty days and if you can't and were just ill shoemaker, especially so we just can go on we're going to quit. Add the judge said you gimme, One good reason why I shouldn't have you disbarred for subvert aplenty, something like that home, as you know, in kind of a kind of a friendly gesture on his part said: ok, you don't have to quit. I fire you just go home and represented himself for about a day and a half and really did a pretty good. out of a duty he done cross examining before in some of the subjects. then in the lawsuit over the transcript of him cross. Examining one of the witnesses himself now he knew his way around the court room by then. He wasn't about you Well, you could tell watching him that he wasn't a practice lawyer, but if he, if he had gone to law school, he probably could have been
ok, one he could talk is way into not a pretty much anything. He brought them back in eventually, after the next day, he brought them back in its hung what I understand happens is its because the jury's is, as we know, he killed those kids, and he actually killed him, and I were the lights I was. That was a part of it yeah. I think I think that I've been trying to find the exact court. I know I saw one time was EL, even if their brutal would all heard all these things about this guy. You know even that already convicted. He he just didn't know it yeah any. I think you're gonna did know it too. There is no way gonna get over those? We thought he could get a new trial. They tried for a while to get a new trial, a shoemaker, paid a woman to sign an affidavit, seeing that she had seen benjamin plates alive immediately caught, because the whole thing has been set up by the dna and disbarred hum which is about the last of the history ever hears of william shoemaker. His reputation was already pretty shattered before though he has there was he. There was like a
article about him being a swindler in a con man before that, but by then there had been tons and tons of those when it was first arrested. It was in newspapers all over the country for days about this. Huge swindler sky had pulled on the insurance company worried he would even knew he was a murder they recalling the king of criminals before the hanging eurotas you you got paid devolve. It was a joint payment from william Randolph first and the guy who published the philadelphia, inquirer stadiums one thousand dollars to write a confession: convention. He said he had killed twenty seven people, but the confession had barely a word of truth in it. It sub basically unreal will really you really think that if you're gonna write a fake confession about murdering twenty seven people, at least be a pretty exciting red blood, another gauges them just an incredible. It's an incredibly boring document for a fake story, about twenty seven murders and how? How is the money incentive, though, if he's facing death a poorly, I think some of it ended up. Go
there's a lot of rumours about what really happened. The money some of the mighty gone to his family, like he still had a son and daughter out there by various wives, and also he really wanted to keep the legal case going to. He wanted to keep keep on trying keep on trying to give trying to get himself another couple of months find a way to manufacture more evidence or more reasonable doubt more. appeals trying to get himself just life imprisonment instead, but was well. You needed money for stuff like that, so there is also a story about the way in which he is buried, and there is also some dispute about why he was buried thy way. Can you tell us about being buried doubled the areas can getting to be a fad at the time of the reserve, a merchant new york had been grave, robbed and held for ransom and was gonna get to be a thing in the middle de nineties having yours. If you were a burly notable person like george pullman here in Chicago that would really rebuilt abraham lincoln. Under all this concrete and cement just to keep brave robbers away, but homes by all accounts,
would he wanted it? Was he didn't wanna, be dissect that a lot of people had tried to buy his brain or any number of? weird things like that. No, even though he had dissected any number of people himself in medical school that didn't sit well with him, so he used some of the money to buy a double, deep grave and arrange to be buried under a quite a lot of concrete and the barrel in the car. We were very well document. Is that what we are definitely at a double deep grave? Hence its estate thing when they took the body away, they put it in a vault overnight and the atlantic. all in the cemeteries. You know you walk down the stairs and things were kept there until the grave can be dug. They filled the thing with cement. First then put it down there then next day. They had to bring this by a coffin full, a concrete back up the stairs out of the votes, which were either When will they realize? Oh yeah? We don't need six people for this. We need twenty five people to pull this thing up. The stairs they're going to have to wonder if the law you know
we were being very bright you're putting it down in the ball like set on, I figured since he had dissected bodies himself than he knew. What that was the I knew what it was like a baby so that might have added to his distrust of weather I do with his body afterwards. Yeah yeah, absolutely well. Yeah he's an easter lily, the unmarked a double deep grave out there in philadelphia. There were stores, even then. The two figures that I just recently while I was digging through the copyright records yesterday, there was a book publishing the cargo in eighteen, ninety, six like right after the hanging called hanged by proxy or how each age homes cheated the gallows. I couldn't write anything about this, except just the copyright entry. So we don't know if the book actually was printed. I get it. and should the publishers did mention the publishers, namely the copyright entry, but I guess no copies revive, remember. There was only a few copies to begin with
but you never know what my turn up someday since we kind of gone over some of the things that happened in his life, some of his crimes and his arrests and eventual death. One of the stories that I really enjoyed, that is in one of your books is there was a man who worked for homes and he kept trying to leave his employment there and work Other people and homes would get him fired at those other. Two hobbs citizenry hire him, and eventually this man had to take action. So you know the story. I m talking about, I am spacing over the guy's name was: right right that occasionally yeah. He had homes arrested, and then he got homes to science, some sort of legally binding.
In agreement that he wouldn't interfere in this man's affairs again and it worked yeah. I've heard it, but I haven't actually seen the paperwork on it, so the by the guy might have just been a big talker. You have. These are the stories these you have these so called eye. Witness accounts from people that were there that new homes worked with them, and they're all varied as some people say yeah. He never paid me the air. He still out of me alive, none laid me or some well said my husband needed money and homes just gave him money, and so you have always different accounts of either he was a great guy or late at night. He and quinlan would be digging in the basement, and homes never seem to sleep so jesse highly interesting stories. You have one thing we have to There is a lot of these were stories that people started telling after he became world famous, is the king of criminals and everybody was kind of expected to have. There. You know their personal blood curdling tail, that's worthy
saying the henchmen, and but but there was a man, and maybe this was a layer stories well, but he was talking about when he worked for homes for a while one of the things Gotta do is fill in these holes that were dug in the basement. Yeah. He was doing some fish. He stepped out on the base, and most of it was. He was always try to start talking about starting a glass bending company which Farley did give him exe used to build really large hard core furnaces. was apparently one one guy told about helping him build a furnace in the basement that could get up to like three thousand degrees fahrenheit, but by the time the cops were digging the play's. The thing with the furnace was long gone, so they couldn't really test the test. The guy was telling the truth or not. Will that would be a great crematorium that would be a crematorium yeah, so there there there may have been an oven down there. That was hardcore enough that he could have pulled that off, but at first they were saying that he was cremating people in the wood burning stove and that then people pointed out. You can't do that. While you can, you can scorch them.
One back then mean they had to sell newspapers just like news agencies have to sell, add space or whatever it is. Today I mean they that was their bread and butter. So the moors rectangular the story. The more sales you're gonna get the at an end. Digging through the pay would you kind of get a sense after a while a witch wonder that which ones are the good ones and which ones were? It was sometimes is very obvious which ones are just making noise, though there is one, the chicago mail. There was really really irritating, but you can't take him thou seriously. We have to bring this up. There's a man out there who is the great great grand john Jeff, much it of Herman Webster, much h, h, homes and at home. It is his arms, the you worked with him yeah, oh we, you know, we ve been on panels together right because of fear because of eighteen homes. Now he is telling everyone that each homes isn't just this notorious man from Chicago
he's also someone who committed some murders in london in late eighteen, hundreds yeah? This is a theory. That's gone around a couple of times, I'm fairly confident. I got enough paperwork about him being in chicago in the eighteen eighties that I'm pretty sure he was sure it wasn't. He was not jack. The Ripper, really, you know stabbing prostitutes just was an old style, I do is jeopardise different yeah yeah jeff and I disagree historically, but we get along fine. Obviously this is an opinion, but I see this with authors who come along, who have a personal stake somehow or relative involved, and they sensationalize things is to help solve their books, the yoke emblem of that. No I'm not. I can always I've. You think she's a veto is his book. Bloodstain is a novel, and if you ask him about it, the old dill tell you straight up it's a fictional novel, but he also, I don't think he minds it when people think it's a true story either her.
I believe it is a guy who publishes both nonfiction is a much easier cell and I also wonder sometimes if Iraq Larsen was thinking of devil in the white city, is a novel, not a nonfiction book when he wrote it because it would reach is a great novel and there's a bunch of liner notes at the back that explain, There's in india in the end notice a very up front about which parties just make it up. So this is the thing people should keep him, and when they are enjoying their h, H, homes, stories, Roy them, but remember a lot of it is sensationalize and very, very fictional. As far as yo yo It's a lot of yeah. A lot of it has been fictionalized. There's a lot of stories that capita we could only that are repeated. As fact we can trace them back only do like nineteen thirties and forties pulse, where they were clearly just be a made up as pure fiction and so yeah. I am of two minds about the upcoming movie with us foreseen dicaprio, as I have no
bacteria. That is going to be accurate whatsoever, but at the same time those guys don't make no junk. Now now I'm sure it will be a good movie. In any case, I do often see people faces fall when I told them no, I don't think he killed, tortured and killed. Two hundred people But no that's a good thing are disappointed that people were being chloroform and set down shoots on a regular basis, while others also, you also the the there's a lot of things saying that he had medieval torture devices down in the basement and like a rack to you, that he was going to use to create a race of giants nets and that just came out of nowhere in the nineteen forties.
but yeah people get really disappointed. If I say there wasn't, you know surgical equipment and boxes of bones in the basements, and I I know I'd make a lot more money if I just told people what they wanted to hear, but I'm bad at lying. That's very true. I don't know if you're aware of them, but there's an author, richard cahill, and we had him on to talk about the lindbergh baby kidnapping and he said he would have sold way more books if he would have just made everything up and just lied about it. Instead of telling the truth- and he said people just dislike charles lindbergh so much they wanted to hear if he was guilty and when it turns out that he wasn't a nobody wants to hear that right before we end this. The one thing I want to talk about serial killers,
if you're so back in nineteen. Seventy four and f b, I agent profiler, coined the term serial killer or serial murderer before that it was multi, murderer mass murderer. The definition he gave was a person who murders three or more people, usually due to abnormal psychological circumstances, the murders taking place over a month with a cooling down period. But since then the f b I's, actually kind of taken out the cooling down period. Like its there, they ve really destroyed the definition of what a serial killer is. You know, and we always associate somebody that is killing due to a fantasy due to an uncontrollable drive. You know we don't we don't associate a hitman with serial killers, we don't
she ate somebody in the military. We don't even really associated gang member who just happens to kill multiple people of another gang with a serial killer, because I don't have any of that fantasy drive that right taking them to that end. With this did h h, homes Tis victims lust after them or fantasize about killing them. Did he have cooling off periods I mean: was he fulfilling any kind of a desire, You know it's difficult to tell what's going on in the guy's head, and certainly the last few books have been about holes have been written on the assumption that that that that's what it was, he was just this: a serial killer, serial killer in the modern sense, the wizard who fits all of these patterns and of what we know of the profile There is evidence that keep the people that he killed. He killed for a reason he killed because they knew to mud, sure eagle because he had gotten them pregnant, it's always with them.
If it was the analogy I always use for people as he wasn't like the Hannibal lecter type of serial killer- that we think of is more like Walter white. He killed people, but it was all a part of his making money operations. Every serial killer is a con man, but is every con man a serial killer in awe, and in the case of a judge, holmes. I actually wooden label on this one because he asked generally would not either at he seems to be discarding. People mean our in dispatching of them, when he no longer needs them or if there, in his way of profit, yeah, which that's not a fantasy or desire a driving force to me- the added the evidence to me is that he was more of a swindler first and foremost, but sometimes people got in the way of it
also it depends a lot on how you define a serial killer, the definitions always changing. I mean today's definition is so vague and in general that sure you could call him a serial killer, but yeah he killed. He killed repeatedly yeah I would just call that a mass murderer. I usually called him. Multi multiple murderer care, as wanted to clear that up, just because that's his tie is america's first serial killer and I didn't agree with it here. I will say this: I think people should definitely check him out. Can you go through in at least give people an idea of the kinds of books that you have out there and then where to find you on the web, go chicken mysterious chicago dot com? First for moral? I ll try out of soldier dot com, then the number things are good.
My most recent novel was called play me backwards. It's a book for young adults who worship the devil. Then also. I did one about a ghost of Abraham lincoln. Last year there was about a abraham, lincoln ghost lore, all these stories about lincoln haunting the white house and attending seances and predicting his own death. I tried to trace all of those back to their primary sources and there is, about ghosts of chicago which is similar was chicago, goes stories on Lakota flickr, empire? Silent was all about silent. The fight silent film seed in Chicago that came out about a year ago, if you're in there I'll go area I'll be at the schomburgh library on Wednesday s greeting some of this island bills will remain in chicago and for people in Chicago whether visiting or living you do too. yours? I do yeah right right now. Work, I'm gonna take a break from the tourist as winter time, but surely, once once things can pick up again or be a lot more for our public ones and private tourism of ill before all its.
I am often times just ito. People who want an age almost or will you know I'll just take em around in my car? Sometimes we're we're gonna have to come up and take it to her, absolutely men, the our thinking about doing and beat up I'm points in Chicago. You gotta new listener. If nothing else innovation has so we'll hit, you in Jan yeah cause. shows around right, yeah, thanks again for coming on and look forward to reading more of your books and a future. Alright, rather me thank you for tuning in two. episode was sponsored by audible. If you want to go out and listen to it, audible has it with a hundred and eighty thousand titles and virtually every john or you'll find what you're looking for get a free audio book today, with a thirty day trial in signing up at audible, podcast outcome, ford, slash generation. Why thanks.
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.