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Hinterkaifeck - 152

Hinterkaifeck. March 31, 1922. Groebern, Germany. Unsettling events led to horrific murders. A farmer reported to neighbors that he had seen footprints in the snow leading up to the back of his farmhouse from the woods, but not leading back out. Strange noises could be heard in the attic later, but a search revealed no evidence of an intruder. A missing key and scratches on a door lock further raised the farmer's suspicions. On March 31, each of the five Gruber and Gabriel family members, as well as a maid who had started working just that day, were murdered with a mattock. Even more mysterious, whomever had committed the horrible crimes stayed on for days after to attend to the animals on the farm and to eat and sleep there. Who could have done this and why? Was it someone they knew? Or was it just a psychotic person who stumbled across the remote farmstead? A true crime episode. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
We just mind just ass and we get some people to think. Well, sometimes women doing an episode we reach out, or we had people reach out to us, and this time we had a couple of people helping us here because allow these documents are another language or dark conflicting stories. Absolutely so it's good to have people checking as well, and then you can kind of sort do that together and see what you come up with. I thank Cassandra b. and then also want to thank karsten from germany. He was instrumental as well since,
he obviously can read it. Aren't events gotta helps right. It does help. I took german in high school bird yeah that was high school and of where's. This is infamous in that country, so so distant many little aside when, I lived in los angeles. You know when I met girlfriend now my wife she lived in there. Higgins, building in downtown los angeles, which was two blocks away from skid row, and she would we her dogs down there and she had no fear in the world. When we first move to Kansas city, I drove her out ten. Minutes outside of the city out into the country, and she was scared out of her mind, thinking that there is trained on massacre in every house, and I told her I said you know, country folk are good people. there there, just like any one else in your way, more prone to be murdered. One block away
skid row or very population density nino play site downtown allay, so you know don't worry about it. so the story tonight is that throw all my reassurances on their head. Well, if it may You feel any better. You can be murdered anywhere. So There were what are we talking about tonight? Well, this is commonly referred to as inter k fact, but I would refer to it as the murder set in turkey fact farm the crimes took place march- thirty first, nineteen, twenty two in grover in germany and suffice it to say the story boil down to its essence. Is there is a family of I've, a father, a mother, their daughter and her two children and a new made at this point system, she's things have been going on at the farm and it seems
though one by one most of them had gone out to the barn and met their fate. Fate in this case is a mattock which is essentially the pickaxe. So someone was killing the people at this farm, but they left a lot of money behind, I even took care of the livestock after the murders for two to three days and even eight there and possibly slept there as well. and it's a mystery is too who did it because the police never arrested anyone? So that's why we're talking about a tonight? It's a mystery. So I think this part of the story is slightly unrelated, but slightly related. They had a housemaid that work for them and help
out around the farm, who reported noises, voices and footsteps in the attic and footsteps in the home, and she thought the house was haunted. She thought goes were walking around in one where they would investigate. Nobody was around. She ended up quitting putting in her notice with the family. and they disregarded her as hysterical. I guess that's how if you disregarded women back then and in germany, is you're just crazy and whatever right, they just didn't put any stock in in her stories and she left the residents. Well, let's talk about this yeah, so she claimed
if disembodied footsteps- and they were disembodied voices. Another way of saying all must be something supernatural: jumping paranormal. But at the heart of the story, this family andreas Gruber, who is the patriarch of the family, he's not a nice guy. now he's known fur abusing his wife and Andy stern with his children ends, as We now know he also had relations with his daughter. He was thirty years, her senior. She was thirty. Five years old, she had two children Keziah. Who was, I believe, but she seven I think so. She was named after Victoria. His mother, Toby thee be the track of the family. There then edison Joseph
Well, it is rumoured that Joseph was actually victorious fathers, son, meaning out of incest, came this this child there in this mix. There is another love interest, you might say a local name, Laurens shit. In bower through the ash, slits empower. I think that's how you pronounce it don't die. As it were mispronounced their apologies to dodge land. He obviously had at least it at one time some interest in Victoria here and she claimed that the child was his not just it is. I want child support right or supposed to pay child support. Well, we're! I understand he came up with some money and then dates ants guardianship from lord
and to andreas to victorious father Apparently, the way they did all. This was not legal. I dont know if it's out of spite or out of urging from andreas, his clear to me how this came about, but it was said that Victoria, is going to sue lorens for alive. You, child support for alimony here so you can see how is getting agitated here, I'm sure in there's a family. You know neighbourly feud kind of going on now between you know the two families the gruber is, which is how will describe this family? That family was wealthy? Very it's not exactly like needed the money? Do you know anything about? Laurens is financial state. He wasn't destitute, but I don't think he was nearly as rich as the gruber and therefore he felt very spiteful that
They were asking him for funds when they were much more well to do than himself right, so could see where some issues here. How does that pertain to the woman? aid and voices long just setting it up, because if Andreas is an abusive person, and this made has had her fill of him. I can imagine if she goes and says you're an awful human being How long? How far does she get before something happens? To her, I mean it when you, read about this case. People make it sound as though I dress he and his wife gazillion had other children. They just didn't live. And so the question was is did: was he just that abusive? That's not read too much into that. All I'm saying is, is we do know here abusive, for I know be. The maid thought this is my way out
in an or maybe she was under so much stress that she was hearing voice, this is new york. Has a lot of stress makes you act a little weird, or maybe it wasn't. Some a lie? Maybe it was a half truth. It's really just difficult to know. The documentation on this aspect is just not there. I would say not for us anyway yeah, so she takes off she's gone right fast forward, so Six months issue later andreas fines, footprints leading to his house through the snow coming from the forest he's investigating after a snowstorm, so he sees these footprints and he noticed is that Peter see any leading away correct just to his, house to his property and not away from his property. Now. I also think that some say that they didn't actually even lead all the way.
with the door or a window even that they stopped up. Just to the house now. Maybe there was a little bit apache snow and ground, so maybe person. Whoever was that walked towards the house, could have walked to dry land, not snowy land and gotten somewhere or way without lead tracks, but this bother. Andreas so much tat. He searched the property and didn't find anyone there. They say that that night here noises in the attic kind of like the made that left and found nothing? So maybe maybe she wasn't so hysterical right, maybe there's something to this noisy attic. They also found a newspaper left on their front porch. And went andreas ass, the family, about this newspaper. Nobody had any clue about it and he asked the postman.
You know somebody hit, subscribed or bought it. Nobody had any information, so justice, random newspaper on his front doorstep, and they didn't have light newspaper boys that came in delivered back there. This was something you had to go and purchase and bring back so I didn't say it was open to a specific article or page or anything like that. Just there was a newspaper left there. Then he found out on us tool shed. He found that there was scratches, like somebody had tried to jimmy the lock on his tools So they were scratches and marks all around the lock, and apparently he talked to his neighbors about these things. So there's multiple people that know about these and incidents that happened at the farm before the grand event,
So here we have footsteps to the barn. We have rain Items left at the barn apparently somebody that might have tried to successfully broken into a tool shed while he found key missing yeah. So at that point They have a set of keys missing I would assume that people are a little freaked out in that's that's about the time they hired this new made marie bomb gardner. so they're, all these mysterious goings on he even as you said, talks a neighbour to see if they are experiencing anything in there, like no, nothing, weird scope on here, and I think this is why story got out is because he did talk and he actually claims that he saw a man standing in the wood line staring at his house in Victoria. The daughter
said that she saw the same man in the woods watching their property. Now was that a guy relieving himself or hunting well, According to them, look like he was just there to look at their property, so multiple, weird things leading up to this event. So I find it interesting that Maria baumgardner arrives at this far Arm within hours she and everyone else is murdered. Yeah back. She doesn't get to work a full day it the far you deal sorry for her just shows up and she has even make it through a day. So it's friday when they assume the the crime took place. Sounds like that's about right now, cause the daughter didn't show up for school that day
And then the family didn't show up for church that sunday. And during the weekend there was a mechanic again. I want a butcher. His eyes. Last name was siegel siegel, who showed up not on the door, nobody answered He knew where water, he needed to repair was and he went and repaired it and apparently that wasn't in the barn and he Therefore, many hours doing this repair. And with no sign of the family, he went to the neighbor's house and said: hey I've done my job and I didn't see them and then that monday, the daughter again show at school, and the postman has tried to deliver mail in its piling up, as they say
So people are suspecting things. Neighbours start to worry and we have one neighbour in particular. Are they were Though I dont know, if their worried will they. say that they'd noticed smoke coming out of the chimney over the weekend. They noticed, look like people were living at the house, but nobody was answering the door, so we have one particular neighbor who gathers men and they go and investigate her height and whose are our primary neighbour that wants to solve this crime. Is there is laurens. Schlichten bauer he and the other men had to the barn and when they open up the barn there's a door that sort of propped up, You take away the door
hey and inside that hey? There are bodies? and the bodies are of andreas gruber, his wife, cecilia, their daughter victoria and her daughter, casildea stacked up yes, sort of stacked upon each other? It's odd because. There covered by concealed or hidden ya a concealed or just out of you, and so than they had to flee the farm house, because laurens knows his family. He obviously does and well Hold on a second, he immediately starts on stacking the bodies and when their neighbors say what doing you're in thing a crime scene. He says: I'm working for my son guises, my boy, my boy and his bow,
A Joseph is not in the stack of dead bodies and they know is that he is so finally unfazed by the grotesque state of the bodies. And knows his way around the house- and he goes directly to the boys room without having to search much yeah. He heads to the farm house because he knows that, everyone is their. He knows his boys, not there. I dont know if he knows about the maid or not that's, to be determined so he goes and they go into the house and apparently you what they find in their doesn't to bother him either. They find the maid who is in her bedroom and she's been murdered they find Joseph in what is it a crib or a caught some kind, yeah
and he's been murdered. Also any has a like a skirt or some piece of clothing from Victoria laid on top of him. If this, his boy truly. I would expect some sort of emotional response from him to me: sort of a real point of contention. was this is boy or not, because I think that determines everything on who the killer was Nor does he believe it or not. Here it is interesting that he brings this up now, the all the neighbours and the community or their tramp like all through the house, all through the snow, all through the barn. It's even said that they're making snacks in the kitchen, is there so many of them they're waiting for the police
mars is one of those that just eat and he's just steps away from Maria yeah. As for the children, the reason you, don't have anything definitive or they can say. We have to say it, sir, when so son is because they don't have burst her tippets now, and that means they weren't baptize now for what I understand that areas pretty catholic, but that's no good, t that everyone in the areas catholic, it just means the majority of people- probably are here lawrence slit, bower seems to not be having a trouble being around these victims. Now Do you wanna get into what happened to them, yeah yeah? We need to our game. clearly Gabriel, which is the grand daughter, her job. Was shattered. She added cervical injury z when you're hit with america too. So heavy tool
and that's what a yo yo here, people say that whoever was wilderness knew what they were doing with it, because these people were struck in the head. All of them were struck in the head because of the kind of tool it is, it will leave, it can leave cutting marks, but it also is a very big puncture wound right, the grandmother, the matriarch She was bruce near the eye she had been hit. Seven times in the head. and she had shown signs of being strangled victoria. same thing. She showed signs of being strangled. She was hit on the right side of her face and is a love. Pointed tool, injury on her upper part of her head and all these all these victims, their heads were: cracked men were split because of
the heavy tool. This episode is brought to you by peacock bridge. Did the original limited series, a friend of the family based on story of the Jan roper kidnappings from nickel. oscar executive producer of the act and candy and after producer eliza hip, and comes a dark compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produced which amber burke herself, this theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on paper
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calm, slash gaeta, BP were text J, w p, two five hundred five hundred; that's audible, dot, com, slush judah, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days or more time, audible, dot, com, slash gdp lisbon, well that staff what getting I hears, they were all structures in the head. You there's no indication that there are struck anywhere else now. The fact that conciliation and victoria both showed signs strangulation and and even more horrifying. The grand water showed signs that she was alive from multiple hours after she was hit, they don't know how long, but it was long enough support, hair out yeah. She and that's a sign of distress, they say ends whether that distresses being hidden the head with a pickaxe or the dust?
as of watching your family be murdered in front of you with a pickaxe, its hardened because I don't think if she was hit with that- that she would be able to do that- that'd be my guess, Now? What were they wearing? Does that kind of dictates the the order here? What may victoria and her daughter were dressed day close bright. As they were going to go somewhere to stay redress for the day, all the people were in their bedclothes there, there night clothes ready for that add possibly wondering where the daughters in india and are in go out to investing, we don't have an exact sequence: You really wonder what's going on here, if, if we presume, because there dressed victoria and young causally are the first out there.
the precise she would polar? you know me I mean like. Why would yet we just don't have an explanation for it. We can guess at it, but we don't really. The other thing is, they say that you can't hear noises very well from the barn in the farmhouse, so It's our are noises out there they're saying you can't just like a courtyard. Almost between the two there's like space between the the barn and how So it's not wall the wall or anything there is. There is a distance there right. There are two buildings are connected, that's that, but that's the farm house and in the clinical garage. so how would they lower anyone out there? I dont thing: they did lure. Anyone, I think, they were there and the girls came out, be there one by one or together and they were attacked first and then the parent.
came out to either investigate or even just retrieved. There else, because they were out too late, and they came out one at a time and I would say that Andreas prob It was the last one and mean of the victims, as I had the power of the victims inside the barn and once he was despatched of the murderer, knew the man. The strongest person is gone now so can go inside the house and do whatever hand why I think the murderer knew the family and it wasn't a stranger write about think there had to be a way to lure. Let's put it there, way they had animals. If I was on the farm, the additive there were reports that there is a does, will not just a dog, but there is a lie
Joanna was a cow or something or an oxen. There is larger animal that was roaming around loose they're, not supposed to be loose. They see it? They might say, hey Victoria, could you go get the the ox back into the bar and put it back in the barn or or simply their dog barking like crazy from the barn? I know that you can't hear a lot, but you can hear a dog barking so that might have alerted them tat. There was something wrong in the barn right in so it's possible that what occurs is that victoria goes with cuz out there to go, lock up the animal see someone? She knows that person may have grabbed young kezia and threatened victoria, where she couldn't just scream iran, because she's at the mercy of this person, whose armed with this matic and maybe she gets attacked they both get it.
act right then one by one, the others came at night. It doesn't matter if, if andreas or the wife came out first, I just assume that he was the last one out and that's why the murderer felt safe to go into the house. right once he knew that the adults were well again. The house was pretty quiet at that point if the occupants are sleeping yeah, but I seems odd that someone could get them to go out there. The dog, when the farmers searched the dog had been attacked, but I dont think it was attacked with america, because when people were gathering there and going over the scene, the dog was well enough to bark
it was you annie on its own. He was tied up in the barn right, but it had been attacked. I dont know if someone had kicked it, I never at times or what had happened, but the dog had been attacked, possibly just enough to it and tag nice it to bar more people out or again the animal roaming around either way. Now the dog It's an interest in one person which is lawrence, slit and bauer is barking intensely at him. When he's asked about this lawrence has a good answer. He says that he had blood on his shoe from the victims and that was driving the crazy, more things they find when they investigate is they find a hayloft what appears to be to impressions in the hay. The hayloft is up and sort of the attic of the barn. Have you want to call it that,
And they find that there is a shingle tile, that's lifted were hat, has move, so the people that are the hayloft can view the house now. Is that a place where the two girls walls, would go and hide, and that was their special place and they could see if their parents were looking for them. is this something where maybe Victoria, where she went to be with a loved one and then they could spy on the house to make sure the parents didn't interrupt Where is this? Where a murder had been camping out in watching the house they didn't know right away with murder. Weapon was now they didn't find it they did fine, the murder weapon. Until a year later, when the fog
was torn down d, the locals didn't like the farm anymore. It was. They already did care much for the gruber as a whole and after these grisly. others, they decided it should be torn down, because these are the arm was abandoned. Yeah no, moved. No one claimed it. No one moved in so they just they tore it down there there's a monument there now, but when they tore it down, they did find them the murder weapon, which is the magic, and it was a matter that was actually built. It was put together by andreas self. Now I didn't hear exactly where they found it, but being that they found it after they tore the building down, seems to me that somebody put it somewhere in the foundation or under one of the buildings hid it zombie
sense. Maybe I all it sounds like. Maybe they tried to hide it? I dont know why, though the farm hand, george siegel he's one identified the weapon, the tool he said he said gruber had made the magic himself, so he explained where it was normally kept, and obviously it wasn't they're so think it goes back to the murderer new. Lot about. This location knew that if they were caught with this weapon, it could be tied back to them if they were caught with any items from the house, including the large sum of money that was laying in the house. It would tie them to the crime scene, right. They wouldn't want to take that cause. If someone says found that you had a bunch of money could be suspicious, but I did hear that some of the people that were killed did have money on them. That was taken
nokia, but pocket change can better. When we, I wouldn't be, like the large sound that they had found inside the house that if they had been there for days, afterward would have found it they're looking for it. and I hate to bring it up, but I mean pocket change from the victims was from the murder, or was that from one of the lucky lose that trampled through the crime scene. I don't put it passed the neighbors to just start rifling through people's pockets. They went through their fridge operator. Why think it goes back to how these people aren't that well liked. Yeah. I heard that the the daughter victoria sang in choir at church other than that they, I have a lot of good things to say about them to everyone. it pretty reclusive now whether that be from
Andreas syndrome or if it was just because they were shunned for another reason. Also before it, these murders there's an inch sinking. The happens, which is victoria, yeah empties, her bank account stakes all the money out of it and gives she puts seven hundred gold marks in the church. Amis discovered she's asked about it. She said it's missionary work, and there is some of that money is at the house and it is untouched right and we don't really do. We know why she emptied or bank account the nurse there's a million ways you can run with this idea. You could say: maybe all the victims were killed. Than a much shorter span of time- and maybe she was Sir daughter, was dressed, because maybe there get ready to go somewhere
you're flippin this thing over. While now on his saying that surpasses we don't go anywhere at this story now we just don't have enough information. Well, we do. no that it was rumoured that they were in incestuous family correct, well, that the father Andreas, an victoria had had relations, the prior made had caught them a number times intermittent The they actually were reported to the authorities for this and while Laurens reported it once this whole thing came down with Jos If, where he was going to have to make payments, he was miffed yeah, so he reported them and of course the police picked them up now later they're let go, but you can only imagine what that did for their reputations
around where they lived. Here, though, I just think that x, files episode home with the in sexual hillbilly fan We like that. I don't think there that bad. But that's what comes to mind when I think of this world said that Andreas his wife, whose older than he is that this drove her crazy. I am and there's a witness who gave statements decades apart and the first time they stated that Victoria had run away and that she had threatened. She had basically threatened suicide. They had to go, look for and then decades later the same witness changed the story slightly and said it was the mother kezia gruber who ran off and they had to go and fight after the incest. It was too much, for I mean it works either way
see how it could be confusing. This witness was getting their information because- They were in the same class as casildea. The granddaughter. And that she was falling asleep in class and she was asked about it and she said well. She was up late because. Depending on which story believe the eye, her mother or grandmother had ran, run off and they had to go and look for well said she was tired from that So I know that there is a slew of suspects that people think committed this crime, but I think there's only one that makes sense and bad the neighbour bullets and mountains slickson bower. I mean No. The way I see it is he's got access He has knowledge, he's bad way with the family. He's could be sued. He's report
Did them for incest, there's a lot of bad blood year. He knew were the tools were kept. Possibly could have got the keys. He apparently had relations with the daughter so boom I don't understand why anyone would look at any one else, but my problem with him is it I truly believe Joseph was his son, and why would he kills on son? Why I think he ever believed he was, I think, that's where the animosity comes from. Shortly before the murders about three days. Prior, his own child dies, route, This is one of the motives is so he loses his child. Now is being told. This is your child too, and yet the pay for it, but I don't think he believes it is child and furthermore, it doesn't think family needs more money and that he doesn't need to be reached for it, and
So now, why wipe out the entire family in his mind, why's that sorry. There could be different, for that one because of the incest. This could be like a cleansing like the whole families tainted they're. All bad He's asked at one point sometime after: earth about about the crimes and he says that gods hand was involved here that they were bad people. Pretty cold when a whole families wiped out, have that as an expert nation, while he didn't seem very cans. and either when he was there, when they first discovered the bodies, sir, oh already, we see a guy's already called about him, has motive because Emma he didn't get along with andreas. At all fact, for what I understand you
I to marry victoria, but andreas wouldn't let her marry any one else. He put the cabal say on that yeah. He said now, there's just here must just get rid of em they're, just their pain in his ass. I I can see the cleansing cause personally, if if he doesn't think it's his child, then ok sure he can kill the child without a second thought, but at the same time he wiped out the entire family in the barn. but he went inside. Now the maid he might not have known that made. Was there or may. That made was oh well now. There's another person involved here. So does that's what might have triggered the event, but he'd goes up. the maid and Joseph, which I just think that's unnecessary. It is necessary if it, if you're laurens, certain bauer
you don't want to make alimony payments or child support payments or payments or support a child. That's not course and in so if the families wiped out he's going to get stuck with Joseph now, he will be there to see where that's going and he may if he was watching the place. If he was keeping an eye on things, he would know that the maid showed up at his own family, slit and bowers one. family could not account for his activities or whereabouts. In the days leading up to it and during the murders and the days after them are right, they couldn't account for it. They didn't even try to make anything up. They just said we don't know, we don't know what he was doing where he was so the police are called. and they investigate. They question him, but they say that he doesn't have a motive or does it have any suspicion of being there, which I I was
mesmerized by this society. How on earth do you come up with this? He does have modem motive act and knowledge of the property you're here very close by these police. It I believe, or from munich yeah so it's about an hour away. The the trouble I have at the police is they take the heads, the sky walls and they send him off to be analyzed, by it hold on hold on. They take all the victims, they remove their heads right. Sorry. I just want to that to be clear what it was weird like why they would do that for analysis right, and so I thought Well, what more do you need to know? They didn't get fingerprints, they took the heads they sent them off to clairvoyance psychics,
people that would handle the head and see if they got visions. Waiter, investigate ryan if look into this, I'm sure many well. They say that their schools were all lost while they were lost during world war two, because the building they were kept in in nuremberg, burned down bombed, probably because it was bombed. Amene there were lots of things lost because of world war. Two. In germany. Even anybody who seen the jurassic park films knows of spinosaurus the lead time we ve ever had a complete spinosaurus skeleton was back then in the museum leave. It was ally, bombs that struck that building and completely obliterated that skeleton we we
should know a lot more about the cool spinosaurus, this one of the largest predators ever to walk the earth, but it's gone because has been because we're or dust has a war because of war. That's where the sculls went as well is during world war, two buildings burned down skulls or lost forever. I'm not sure it would really help us. They even have photographs that are possibly of the family, but I think the record just aren't very good, so it's difficult get people a say. Oh it's definitely them some of the players there are photographs of them. Some of them are from much later. Actually now I think it was Andreas is stir that said that his brother his brother and laws or step brothers on her death bed. She claims that the brothers were the ones responsible for thee crime
But you know besides, yes, maybe getting inheritance or taking control the farm. I don't know what their motive was and she says did it and set it on her death bed. So people give her the credit for this and I don't see any allegation that or now I dont give any weight to her her little deathbed confession, because I absolutely think that the neighbor was raised. multiple well, I didn't see the farm go to anybody. As you know, it was torn down a year later. So the motive wasn't financial, not not in the not in financial gain. If it's lawrence, it would be to preserve his financials whatever they were I just found it weird that they stayed there after the murder took care of the animals and little
I'm in the chimney. I guess they wanted to pay along the letting the cat out of the bag per se. I guess the only motive I can see is if he makes trips over or even these there for some period of time again his whereabouts or not accounted for. So if he comes out he's doing those things it. People kind of going through the area and they see that there's smoke coming up the chimney. They probably think everything's normal there. Nothing sends up a flag there not worried about it, he's the kind of the first guy on the scene to investigate where the family, when its, but he waits I doubt this is four days later. You know it. Maybe it would be suspicious if he was calling for. I'll day, one here right because he had to have gotten. I would think he had to have gotten blood on himself
It just doesn't make sense to me if this is a random murderer that came to the barn and just started killing off family and didn't steal anything and then stayed there for a few days and laughed dad just doesn't add up me if I'm a random killer, sir! killer whatever after I murder, somebody I'm taken off, I'm not wiping out the entire family. Definitely not Waiting in the barn and then going into the house and then spending time in the house, as doesn't seem appropriate, perhaps police. The reason why they weren't to hip on investigating laurens too much. Maybe they had a pie. What the group as well I mean these people aren't
They were more well regarded in the community yeah. I think we would have seen a better effort here. In the nineteen seventies there was a church and I I don't know how to pronounce the the town it's in, but it's like a hegel's thought this church was being taken down. They found some hand written notes. they are referred to in turkey fuck, it says jealous greece, scorn from their entire surroundings because of lack of morals. One year blue chand, witches incest, punishment by god,. Some speckly. These are from the nineteen twenties, but they don't know who wrote them how they got in this town, which is eighty five kilometers away from enter, came back, but if the rep
patient goes that far out then yeah. I can see people now liking the family or even the police, having no about these issues and maybe not investigating as much right. I think that's one of the things that kind of holes holds it up is that there is. It could just be one, but it also could be multiple people that were involved here, either through knowing and not saying anything or being directly involved, and also the crimes this totally destroyed before they even got there. So I mean I don't know how much that factored in, but I think it's it's a variable I think this incest thing is at the very heart of it all. When you try to figure out why a certain crime is committed, you need to figure out what factors might be involved. And one of those is obviously the opportunity, while the sky lives very close,
What are they say? Three hundred fifty meters yeah he's the neighbour haze, the neighbour he's, obviously very few, with the place- and he has a motive in that is looking at getting sued and he's being told that this is your child. Young child is his you wonder what would have happened if andrea's gruber had just said Anne you and my daughter. I don't care what you do. Maybe there he might not cared so much, but now he's being told you be with her and she's going to see you as and the father hates your guts, so So you're not gonna, see your own child, You will know I've known, you know if he believes that and I'm just saying like maybe he would have looked pass that had he been able to be worth Victoria. It's possible, I guess some amazing catch. There are other setbacks, but,
I am not sure we need to go into them because they're they're, they're they're, not even relevant right but feel free to look it up. You'll see the other suspects. I know in two thousand and seven a police force police recruits, I guess right like they were like at an academy yeah. They were asked to study the case and it seems as though it's understood that lorenz is the name that pops up, but they never filed an official report that was available to the public every one I think agrees or most everyone agrees that has just been so long Poor collection of evidence that this will remain a mystery officially, although I think on officially it seems kind of obvious yeah.
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.