The another. I'm doing fine and just and how are you doing great because by this house comes out. My risk will be healed. Just and had a nasty fall and almost broke his wrist. Did you have gets sprained when you are skateboarding all the time and I never just bounced back

little older now, bounced back up like a ball and more like a potatoes rounds right back so yeah. Thank you, nineteen eighties I don't get a lot of time to sit down and read a book moyes on the go. But I love reading. So the solution is audible, audible, offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Best sellers new releases celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers catch crime and there too, as an audible member, you can choose one title a month, leading the latest best sellers and new releases? One of my favorites is connections uncovering the real causes of depression and unexpected solutions? Only

bon audible, let audible help. You discover new ways to laugh and be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot, com, slash gdp or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try, audible, free for thirty days, audible- calm slash gaeta BP dagmar get word from our answer. You know when you're watching a crime show and your like wait, did they act They do it. Oh, they definitely did way. Well almost definitely, or are you just meant to think they did nope it totally unless they didn't. If this is you talking to yourself or whoever's, next to you on the couch, we say, keep talking who are we to judge ready to stream some crime stories? Hulu? It's a crime not to watch two nights, This is a who done it or if done it, we ve covered cases like this before

There is the Nora Jackson case, Michael pearson case. In case you have a twelve year old boy who is accused of murder. In his eight year old sister possible fratricide, we have Isaiah fowler and his sister leyla. Now, where does this take place? Justin? This is an valley, springs cow for now, which is a little south and east of Sacramento, either at the time I was in this area might have gotten up to one hundred and fourteen degrees. So you know cooking eggs on the hood of your car kind of heat, but it's a dry heat. You know it's. A very secluded area There is a neighborhood, you have neighbours that don't live too far away, but is not a lot out there family, the fowler family consisted of barney. Well, he has a new love in his life named crystal because he divorced his

his wife who was the mother of his two kids, which were zaire and leyla. There was a your divorce and the moon really wasn't involved in their lies very much, but their stepmother crystal was barney. The father is and make a new family trying to move on from this divorce. But I think that the divorce might have had some impact on the children, but a lot of neighbours and friends, say that There was very protective of his little sister they got along just fine. The dating question is April: twenty seventh, two thousand thirteen at twelve fifteen p m a cry is reported and because of this emergency personnel police are sent out to the fowler home and leyla fowler. Was taken to mark twain, medical center and san andreas and was pronounced dead at one o. One p m the quest.

is what happened to her. The only witness is brother Isaiah, and that day he supposed to stay at home and watch her take care of her while their parents left with their other siblings against siblings to go to a little game? One of the first they do is they make pancakes Isaiah makes. just the way leyla likes them, which is with blue die. So their blue pancakes, not blueberry. Just blew roca just blew. I guess they watch I think they watch a movie or something, but at some point she. Those to her room- and he goes to the bathroom, this is accordingly Isaiah. Some happens while keys in the bathroom he hears a man yelling.

I know you're in there come out in one of his statements. This man will bang on the bottom door and then he hears his sister scream out and pain and he opens up the bathroom door and he witnesses I what he describes as a team. All hispanic man running from the home, yeah muscular man wearing a long sleeved black shirt and blue jeans, something to that effect year in one state, He says that he chases sam and another statement. He says he merely peered out the door and saw the man in the moon ran away yeah. This is jumping ahead a little bit, but his defense attorney will eventually say that you're here,

I have made up the chase because he wanted to appear strong yeah like I chased the guy and he got away the gist of it is he goes to the bathroom he hears a ruckus. He hears a man yelling out and when he opens the bathroom door. He sees a man running out of the room running down the hallway out of the house, and then he finds a sister who's been stabbed repeatedly and he will call nine when one and he'll call his parents and tell them that somebody broke into the house and attack at Layla. He, I believe, because his parents first yeah his father, shows up does what any father would do when they find their daughter stabbed or attacked. But it's the absolute wrong thing to do. Due to a crime scene, yet her body was found in front of a closet in the room. She had originally been up on the top bank of a bunk

bed, that's where she was attacked first and then she ended up across the room in front of the closet doors and he picked her up and carried her outside. So barney is trying to take care of his daughter, but now he's carried the victim whose dripping blood everywhere out of the house, so it's tainted the crime scene and now blood found in other places. It's a little unclear was that because of fathers actions or was that blood dropped their from an assailant as usual. We have these statements of any officers or m tease that arrive rigour, what they see what they hear they do. Some comments, though, on the state of leyla I'm what they noticed with her and vera discrepancy. There aren't there the first officer on the scene,

He places his hand on Leila and describes her as being cold to the touch. Meanwhile, you have paramedics and medical emergency teams who get to her and they do a fingernail pinch test. You know, and so you they pinch the fingernail and it turns white, and then they see how long it takes it. To turn think again see how long it takes for the blood to return to the surface and they say returns within a few seconds, which is normal for a living person. So, therefore, this is fresh. She has just been killed or she is just died. So there is a discrepancy there is she called the touch because she's been dead for awhile or is she called to the touch because I don't know had a sea going on and she just happened to be sitting there in front of the ac and she felt cold autonoe. They also take a look at Isaiah, though. and they don't really noticed anything amiss with him. Do they not now

initially. No, he doesn't have blood on him. The first option. who arrived says, I believe he saw what appeared to be a streak of smear blood eyes. His arm, but they ended up photograph thing him and they don't end up seeing that in the photographs, so either that was wiped off at some point or he was mistaken, but he's not covered in blood which is sort of what you would expect if you stabbing somebody to death. She was stabbed twenty plus times, but only three of those stab wounds were deep. The rest of them were poking or short japs, something to the effect of maybe taunting a person or

just not able to get. You know a good status, but there's only three stab wounds that are very significant and one of them had her heart, not all the moral going to that of the twenty two stabs. Fourteen of them were actually just poking injuries where they were very, shallow is the best as best they can tell, she was on the top bank and when she started to get attacked, she actually moved back with her back against the wall there on the top bank and was trying to protect yourself. and at some point she ended up across the room. Either she was yanked off the bed or she I'm trying it away. Something happened. I kind of feel like it. When is stabbing at her, I dont know why she would move towards the knife. I would think in this case its

likely that someone yanked her off of the bed. I agree because there's not any blood between the bed and where she landed, so she flew across the room somehow, and I would assume that was the assailant or the hacker yanked, her the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy has been criticised by a pathologists because he didn't make the wounds in such a way that there is enough detail that we can. Tribute a certain blade for sure to them, because you, there are ways to check these things out and part of the problem. Is we talked on one of our recent episodes. How take a long time to get results back. The other. Medical. Examiner are few and far between and we ve had a number Oh right in and muscle, slipped my mind. We are talking about it before, but I mean I had interviewed ron France AL about his book, morgue that he cloth Third- and that was one of the major points in the book. Is these people are very.

valuable and their very rare it seems and they're spread. Then yes, so uh doing everything to go well every time. With these thing any word, it's a lot to ask. I guess We understand that every case is going to be important by it. Can see where certain things might get overlooked. So I dont That's enough to criticise the medical exam. Outright and say that the autopsy was no good, but there are definite issues with e stabbing injuries, so really having a hard time figuring out? The murder weapon because of the lack of detail from the stab wounds and norms You could measure it and then measure a knife and say: okay. This is big enough. This some big enough and really nail it down matters because next to the sink were to knives on a towel and more

asean says he went and got a knife after the assailant laughed and he wanted to be protected. Somehow I wanted a weapon but then he and returning the knife to that counter. When they get to the house, they find Isaiah with a phone in one hand and a baseball bat and the other he's in the living room which he says he grabbed I have to protect himself, but he moves on. Do a baseball, bat, apparently, but there's another knife there that when it was examined taken apart, they found blue god inside of the handle which was later was blood. It was also bent in two places So the investigators look at this knife and think, while this looks like it could be the murder weapon, but there is no blood on the blade, so we have to assume it was washed off, but

for the blood to get inside, that handled, they're saying it had not been soaked in blood it sitting on a towel. is no blood around it. So definitely a situation where we are to assume that was washed off, but why would they wash it off right. I mean if it was an intruder used a knife to kill leyla. Then why would they try to Vincent anything off if they're, leaving her room and exiting the house immediately, there they're running away. So this reminds me a little bit of darley row tier or something like that, where you have a an assailant coming in doing something horrible and then running and doing a clean up on the way just doesn't really joe well, but it again you have people like darling. You say I picked the knife by prohibition of done that

in this case we have a similar situation where maybe he picked that knife up? It's really difficult to say, feed had been set off, maybe just doesn't want to admit to it, but it makes him look bad. If that's what happened but again, there is no proof of the islamic there's a camera there They also go through the home. Looking very. really for evidence as well as they use luminal, which is in aid. And that will highlight where blood may have been and they're finding blood Now they don't find a lot of it. You around the house, but there are areas where they find blood. They found a drop of blood. That was honest, in the kitchen sink, which is a weird place for it to be. But again, if the in router is running and is covered in blood, maybe a droplet flung off of all the way into the yeah

What we don't know how he ran out of the house exactly, they also found blood on a door that connected the kitchen in the garage when they went into the bathroom. It appeared clean, but they found traces of blood and the hollow bathroom near the sink light, switch and towels and, of course, where her body was and they that area with soaked in eight literally cut out all the carpet was underneath her and took it out for testing so, possibly somebody went into the bathroom left, blood and cleaned up afterwards. you had a splash of blood on your hand, you could literally run the water put your hand in therein and dry and with a towel and of course whole area above the bunk bed, the walls and window blinds right there. They were spattered with blood ran out of luminal? At some point, though, so

they're using luminal in the areas they feel our most important, but they dont check the master bedroom with it. I think we Most people are upset about is that they dont use luminal on the back deck, because if the suspect ran out, if there was a I suspect that they ran out that back door and went over the deck blood. And always obvious and data he's luminal look for it look all day, and I find It- and this is, the problem- is halfway through their collection, evidence they run out aluminum. I dont know how hard it is to go fine more luman all, but you would hope that they could go get more, but instead they focus on the primary areas that they assume this, this attack happened and where they assume somebody might clean up its definitely going to be something that d d he's going to use they check for signs of sexual assault. One of them

as they do, that is there actually looking for any seamen left behind. They look on the bedsheets and they out, Layla's body, they check laotse body for it they find any evidence of sexual assault. They do however, find a hair just beyond this. We're back and this hair the route returns a partial dna profile for her, but they also find dna evidence on the we'll shafted the hare that is of an unknown mail and they submit that in dna testing and analysis and look for a match, but they don't get a match. One piece of dna evidence that proves somebody came into this house and committed this Yeah, I don't know. If I would say proves, I would say it's it opens up the possibility in it opens up. The possibility of an intruder

so now where, before everything was kind of pointing at Isaiah. Now you have this hair. The hasn't dna on it, that's unexplained, they collect dna from the family members and they also collector from everyone who went into the house near the police and the empties, but it doesnt return as a man to any of those people. There was a few more droplets, a blood that they found a very suspicious, ways inside of ideas room. They find a t shirt, it's a ghostbusters t shirt its green color and it has to red brown stuff. It's an it. One is on the back left sleeve and one is on the front now. The dna test these spots and both of these spots contain Layla's dna and it sure, as heck, looks like blood this spot on the front also contains Isaiah's dna. It's a mixed profile, so the question would be: if

blood came from the victim which we know it dead, then why is it on this shirt that he's not wearing and even if the fog her barney is gone in picked up his daughter and carried her out of the house I would assume that that could leave multiple jobs. In the hallway on the porch, where have you, but how would they get in the bathroom? How did they get into essays room on the shirt They also found a knife next to his bed. It was utility knife. I dont know that significant, but it is there he doesn't say that he's is using it or refer to it at all, so it doesn't have any blood on it. Also search for fingerprint evidence. Well, they find finger, prince from the family all over the house? They find what they think is something interesting. They find, I say as palmprint on a wall near the bathroom

but again he said he went into the bathroom. So if his palmprint is there, this may not be that significant, really I don't find it significant at all. They live in the house and he could have left that palmprint at any point They had assistance from the fbi in this investigation you could you say they wanted some extra expertise on site, one of the things that the fbi there was they had someone assists with interviewing Isaiah and they oh brought in search dogs and they home the area around. I think they might have also helped conduct interviews. because they had more than three hundred people to speak with in the area. Some of these were kind of important because you had people who were facing a window where can see most of the home There was someone like that who gave gave their account,

what they saw, what they heard most, these people will say they didn't see anything. Although some people heard a screen and they describe as a woman's scream by and if someone's screaming in a house, then who knows how someone at another house, is going to hear that one person did say They saw a man leaving that house and ran away? They really wanted to talk with her in a couple of times. They spoke with her. They weren't to hopeful, though, because her story and I say as story while they describing a similar person. they were having them going in different directions. So running the wrong way going the wrong way. Possibly I mean you don't know me what if I say I was wrong, but I think they were going way well, I say, is saying this: he was right there and then this week

men is at another residents seeing this and she saying the person's going. This other way they decide. Hey, let's get a sketch artist out to you where I get a description of this down and compare it to what we know from what I said I said, and then she refused to cooperate So I dont know if she felt like she was gone a story. A native believers says she just shut down or if she was not being truthful from the start. And decided. Okay. It I'm checking out now done this ass takes two weeks, so I I feel like they invested good amount of time at the house. The family moved out and in fact first, since Isaiah is a suspect. They start to face harassment. Because it's hitting the local news there. Now giving out his name. But everyone knows who they're talking about

I do want to say that there was a nintendo ds in the home. It was being to take pictures that morning, the last which was taken at nine. Fifty eight a m- and it was a picture of blue pancakes They definitely had made the pancakes about a half hour. After that, I guess she made a call and talked with her stepmother just basically said what they had done that day. but she also indicate that she was getting bored, though I think that's where any one looking at the investigators here if they suspect that Isaiah had something to do with this, they surmise it would have to have happened some time after that phone call, and if there was any kind of clean up, then this crime may have happened earlier then, He had to take a moment to get a word from our new sponsor price line. Do you have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer get, but never They go anywhere well

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configured for your home and you install it and just mere minutes. No technician required and it's easy to control from the sleek touch screen or up its professional grade systems price to be affordable and come with life equipment warranties faster spawns times thing competitors, because threats, don't sleep sakharov doesn't either no contracts, twenty four by sea. friendly customer support. Try the number one customer rated home security system order today and get fifty percent off your customs system get started cove, smart dot, com, detective wade, whitney, but the sheriffs department. He was interviewing Isaiah at the hospital. Why They were treating his sister, I mean they were trying to It is much information of Isaiah as soon as possible barn. The father was asked: can we talk to you? and he said sure, no problem. So I guess you could call this thief.

First interview or interrogation where they start talking to eyes. Air and asking him what happened and he starts giving the disk Sean of he goes to the ass a room here. somebody yelling and then he looks out and sees a man running from the house now whether or not this is law enforcement. Putting on blind. Is and looking at eyes, air from the get go or if there are literally just asking him hey. What did you see? Let's go after the sky, they interview him again and his father is present during this interview and at last couple hours, and during that interview by

Money is really on the interviewer side really is on law enforcement side. His father even says this is the deal. They have evidence that points back to you. What I want us to talk about is that, for some reason there was an accident or for some reason you did hurt your sister. You got to talk to them. Now, just tell them: yes, you did it and what the deal is we can't move forward without this without you either admitting to it that you do. It will that they're going to get their evidence together and then they're going to still come and eventually arrest you and it's going to be a big scene. Is no proof that anyone else has entered our home. So basically everything comes back to you this. What barney is saying to his son during the irrigation and man

I'm always saying they should at least have apparent in the room with a minor if not a lawyer- but this is a great example of how that's not quite right, because This case, his own father, is basically italian, that he did it and he just needs to admit to it, because otherwise you're going to have all this evidence coming out against them anyway. So he said that there was a neighbor who said she saw someone brain from home, but her account fr from ASEAN is at least in the direction the man was running and then She refused to work with a sketch artist, so I know that the pole is actually made mention of this, in said: hey it's a good thing. You know some comes forward and their story starts than not check out. That's one more thing: we can just strike right off the record that point. It was Isaiah who was there it's nice have other evidence corroborating evidence of you can get it, but they get false leads. They get false reports all the time so

They are doing their job properly. If they can, we that stuff out and speaking of weeds they go through and they cut down all the grass and all the vegetation around the house, which is acres worth it go through it all to see. If there's anything, that's been left behind, they sent dived. Seems to several pond. And the area looking for discarded weapon and were evidence. They spend a lot of time, canvassing, the neighbourhood and just checking out everything they can. They just do not fine evidence of an intruder. Now I will say that I think you can walk into a house and walk out of the house and leave no trace. its harder to walk into a house and violently attacked somebody and leave without a trace. But it is possible just like it's possible that you could attack somebody in a house and do a quick

wash off and not have any evidence on. You have an attack either so are there any other suspects in this case? Besides eyes, air There was a man who was arrested on burglary and kidnapping charges in place, urville Jane wherein he was arrested for the attempted murder of a child in a nearby community, He had gone into a strangers home. These people had no connection with however, to him and he tried to kidnap a fifteen month old and he was holding that key did the ground. The mother was at home, the police saved the child from this guy here reasoning was he was told by the devil, to kill babies. He seems like a crazy person write something off about this. Guy sounds like a good suspected. we're looking at that now he was asked about Leila fowler

Leyla is about seventy eighty miles away where, where she lived, was about seventy eighty miles away from where jason lived, jason, did not have any access to a vehicle, was around the time that leyla fowler was killed. Don't know how he would have made it over there. Anyway, they looked to try match dna to his dna because they did get it, but they didn't fanny matches It was also said that when they were asking him questions that he didn't really answer most of them. Well, if he thinks that the all is telling him to kill babies. Then I dont know why they were expecting answers, but the authorities interviewed witnesses there and eliminated that guy as having anything to do with this case. There is a theory that, because the son, who was renting the house where the flowers ended up living in, This was a year prior that they were. A drug dealer and that there were

many many drug deals going on at that house. There's that theory that it could have been someone who had returned to the home. Looking for drugs and well, possibly were ripped off when they were looking for drugs, and then there are crazy. Everything just went south yeah all bets are off for some stories in the news about people who are our desks, firstly in need of their facts and they do crazy things That, again, is just you know: it's a possibility according to something they also found. Interesting tipp that had to do with a bloody hitchhiker that was picked up in the area they contacted. Driver and the hitchhiker, but they determine He was not a suspect. but you wonder what he looked like. Oh yeah, it was you six foot tall and had long, ponytail or long hair? Something or you know that's the thing is power these people- being excluded as suspects.

How're they was he tested. Was his clothes tested it's hard to disregard these people because they both sound like good suspects in this, and this case, if there were as an intruder. Why believe? They did check the dna on of the suspects because they dna on that was found on the hare. There was a witness a man by the name of nick lange who was good, fronted by a man by the name of jason wearing then on the highway the sky was seen, carrying a knife and he's said that he had just come from? Valley springs where people were getting killed now he said, this confrontation happened about twenty two thirty miles away from the fowler household, but that doesn't check out either it's just. Thing. Weird that went down is being reported and it should be. You have

three different situations of people that do fit this profile. When I find interesting now is character, witnesses who can testify- to what they heard say what they noticed from them behavior wise. What have you in this if we have a good number of character, witnesses- men, of them were involved in the schools where he attended. They report that he seemed to be a bright kid, but just didn't put any effort in he's the kind of kid that would really not turning assignments but would show, the tests and pass the tests. So this is me growing worker, so one of them was sensible who talked about how she had to have a meeting with him, because were concerned for his future. Her was lisa, makin turf. She said his efforts did not match his intelligence

the teachers were saying similar things, a friend eyes. Ears testified that, after that, just days after the murder, I think it was the following week. He said spoke with Isaiah about it and I say I said that he saw the man stabbing leyla, which is different than the other stories. You told not, would be a very significant change in his statement, unlike the ones that he gave to play officers and the fbi of he heard the man yell. He didn't hear me now banged on the door, jordan being on the door, chased him or didn't you Those are two me subtle differences, but seeing the man stab his sister as opposed to not seeing him well, that puts him outside of thee bathroom puts them in a whole new location. Now, so do you believe this witness? I guess that's what it comes down to, This friend told him. That's

believe he killed his sister Anne. I say I responded. That is what I've heard, but they swapped me. I think that's fairly interesting for response deflection, a deputy prime patient officer, heard Isaiah. Tell another kid at the eldorado county, juvenile hall- and this is in november of two thousand thirteen so later that year, that he could be another boy to death and get away with it. So you could say that probation officer just wants to get this kid matched up with a guilty verdict, or you might say maybe he said that, but you know one of the first things I thought of was well, maybe he's just putting on a tough act, because now he's run all these other boys and he's got a hang tough there, because who knows what can happen to him when you're talking about kids, I have a real problem with taking anything. They say seriously

while in a situation like this, I mean the sounds like a jail, how snitch sort of situation. So I don't know it's weird on may fifteen to them And thirteen as when Isaiah was arrested, we are too kind of went over how the authority We are really looking at him in saying there was no intruder. You did this, but after four interviews he never admit he never says. He had anything to do with this. He sticks to his story. That of this intruder, he's lord of admits to something in and not every putting stock into this. But he says something like I dont remember doing it. If I did it or something like that, asked. Did you see someone in the house and he says yes, I saw someone theirs ever a strong admission, theirs some language where you could read into it and say: yeah. Well, there you go he's he saying well, I I dont remember doing that. I guess I could of but that

not the same as an admission, I dont think no and when it comes to anyone being interrogated by the police, they can be influenced. They can be swayed to the point where they start questioning their own actions. And it's it's a very useful interrogation tactic that they use it direction using your work against you to the point where people give false confessions, people say: well, I don't remember: burn it happening that way. But you're telling me it happen that way. So again, it's nothing that I take as an admission at the end of the day, it's just him questioning his own memories, so from may fifteenth, two thousand and thirteen up until sometime in two thousand and fifteen he's still in custody, yeah and they're working towards a trial. Now, at a hearing he waved his right to a speedy trial and I mean I'm sure that has to do with his defence team. Try

define angles to defend him in court, because the price the commission has a lot on their side, but there is some wiggle room here you could say there, technicalities, they could work with. One of them This is, we talked about his interviews. He was We did very well in the interviews they didn't their rate him. I dont think and they never handcuffed him. They really tried to convey that he was merely a witness rather than a suspect, although it's a some of the questions lead you to believe that maybe they were suspicious of him. So it wasn't quite that cozy, but I I would say overall, I think they they treated him fairly. Yeah I mean being questioned by the police, is and intimidating enough. You know somebody with a a one on their hip, can be scary, but by the time the f b I agent is interviewing him he's wearing a suit, no gun, nothing. You know

but again, Isaiah doesn't come forth any sort of confession. He sticks to his story. This episode, brought to you by progressive a leader in army insurance, you're off to see the country and progressive is here to help with basic liability harvey protection for as little as one hundred and twenty five dollars per year, you and your crew can go from mount rushmore to the gulf of mexico, knowing your packing discounts and service for the trip come on. Let's go get a quote today at paris, dot com to see if you could save progressive casualty. Insurance company in affiliates rate excludes travel trailers and is not available in mississippi new jersey or oregon. It's the fbi, age that barney fowler decides. He doesn't like an doesn't want that fbi agent anywhere near his kid, and this is about were barney switches sides if you want to He was on a side or not, but initially was telling eyes air just tell them tat,

what happened now, he's saying. Well, I don't think you have anything on my son back yeah that whole when a suspect is questioned, and then the police are tell in them you know that they have More than actually do something I'm. So suspects are those people that are being questioned, cave one listens, I think it was actually his father who was caving to that not his son and so at some point he's listening he's, taking all this enemies. Thinking wait a minute. I personally don't think you have what you said you had on my side. and now I'm just kind of tired of dealing with you, and so that's where it changes but getting into the trial. They cover all this stuff that we are talking about the evidence, the autopsy the interview I don't know what you're take on his chest and we were not. was, is the whole trial, because I mean we've kind of gone over the evidence and and the things that were important there, but based on

what you know of it. What do you think have hear me. Is this a trial? That's going to be good for I say, or do you think it's a fair trial? They think it's a trial that will actually get a good verdict. Well, since he's a minor, it's not a jury trial, it's a judge who is going to determine innocence or guilt. Yeah bench trial, air, it's very circumstantial, waited on. You have this boy and a house. You have own about a minute window with attack happened and then you have consistency in his statements and him taking a little too long to tell dine on one dispatchers about his sister being attacked and talking, what about an intruder in the house this all is heavily against him, but they dont have blood on him. They dont have the knife in his hand,

but what intruder comes into a house grabs a knife in the house uses it in the attack. Washes it off and leaves it at the house. It's an likely scenario, but what kind of twelve year old can pull off this? This murder wash everything up and make himself look like he's, not done anything wrong, not crack under, interrogation from both law enforcement, an fbi and not have any blood on em because, as he says, he was swathed. one of those things where how much credibility do you put on both both sides of the argument? It doesn't go good. It's very one sided in this first trial, though what when you look at the luminous heads that were in the bathroom- and you look the possible murder weapon being washed and left near the sink. I think it's me likely the murder weapon. I

you can look at the autopsy and say: well, they didn't do the right measurements and we don't know for sure- and the separation this in that. But there was blood in by the handle. I mean how else you explain it? Why would the suspect put the knife there I mean that's what I say I says happened, and then you have these dozen or so poking injuries to leyla. I think that this attack lasted longer than a minute or two minutes. I dont think that's accurate and may I dont personally think so and I am sure during the trial, oh they're, trying to illustrate what they believe happen to leyla. We add up this unknown suspecting the howison calling out and then attacking her eyes. Looking out and seeing him run off just didn't seem like enough time and it doesn't explain away where the blood ends up being found. Doesn't explain the bloodstains, on that sure and in his room, and it doesn't explain why them

her weapon would be next to the sink. I'm sure his defence attorney would argue that and say that's not definitely the murder weapon but her blood is in the handle. That's the whole thing is the autopsy wasn't done. Correct We they ran out illumine. All this is all circumstances, but she was killed recently and an hour before so there's no time for clean up. This is his defence attorney talking. So he definitely has support, but I think his support is mostly limited to his family. His immediate found why? I would say I genuinely believe that they believe he didn't do it now. Oh yeah, they there very outspoken and their very supportive of and their support has grown, because, even as that, there said you know during the trial which were still talking about briefly here, but she said they were very quiet and that's changed over time, and it is because their support for him has grown

on this trial ends, though, just in with the judge making his decision known, which was guilty. Right and a second degree murder trial, they can give him why sixteen years their sixteen delight, but sixteen for minors is what is deemed appropriate. He's already been in juvenile detention for a long time and backing count towards his his sense as time served here. Yes, but the story doesn't end there, because we go back to the interviews we already brought it up that you would think his dad being there Great thing, but in this case he was putting additional pressure, on his son, which may have caused him to say things that contradicted other statements that he made because he's trying to possibly apiece dad or the pressure making him say things that he

otherwise said and had no point in time. they say you are under arrest. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an attorney. He was never read his miranda rights and You know collar technically or whatever, but that's important and you know they're trying to both ways there trying to say: oh well, we didn't want to feel like he was assessed back. He was just a witness, but then they really needed if they wanted to use they needed to have him read his miranda rights. They didn't do that, so we have issues with the way, a minor, was treated during the interview process. Again I looked at the interview process and I thought well that, when better than I expected, it was, but he was too

it way better than cases that are covered is sensationalize such as britain, das, ear things like that again he's a twelve year old kid and you have to deal with that and from way than a regular suspect. There are technicalities that his defence has been able to exploit and file peel well because of those two issues, because his dad was putting pressure on him because they didn't read him. His miranda rights is appeal goes through. That means he's going to be retried, in june of two thousand and eighteen at this point you would expect that they would try to go for a plea deal. You would expect. Maybe the prosecution, well. You know he's already served up. it sends. You might think that our hey, we want to reduce the sentence or something to that effect from the defence, but now

Both sides say they wanna go to trial right right the commission believes they can show that he is definitely a murderer and then that offences I say no, he didn't do thing and by prosecuting him, like this you're just ruining this case, because the true killer is out there. They they think that they can get him an acquittal and prosecution is going to go for maybe more time him, then what do they really have? I mean the defense: has they have the advantage of they? They got a second trial here, but with the second trial, they can now just cut out what caused the problem with the first trial and now the second trial will go forward and then they don't have that leverage anymore. So in a second, How are they really have? As this I'd say, this unknown male dna evidence which hasn't turned up. Anything so it's an unknown bit of eta to me- and

there's no real way that we can understand how factors into the case while they have less inconsistency in a statement, and then you have this unknown and it might be enough to sway. his favour right, and I wonder if the defences really going to push that in this retrial. where they say look. This is annabelle doubt unknown dna, a hare debts found, I mean the victim on the victims, How do you explain that and they're going to probably pushed that? That's good, euro question. How do u way this stuff out? This is not going be a jury. This is back with the judge right, I hate to say it, but I think that the judge is probably going to go. back to looking at all the evidence in saying it seems like

there's unexplained stuff corner that house, that doesn't matter story and again he goes into the bathroom. She goes into her bedroom according to him. and then this almost down and like a minute, that's the that's the one minute window of time that he claims this goes down. In order for that to work, I think you literally have to believe that this person their own knife that the knife on it, the sink somehow somehow magically has her blood in it, which is unexplained because said that she wasn't allowed to handle knives like that. So essentially, it was blood there prior to this whole incident. Might she cut herself or something but yeah make sense here it is it doesn't. I dont know how they get around that. I think it's going to be very interesting to see out plays out now we could have waited for this retrial degree. Through to get the final word on when ends up happening, but I dont I didn't want to wait because

to me this case is interesting because it involves a twelve year old, whom have murdered his sister, as were wind, talk about. How does that play out when you're talking about finding justice, in this case, These were that eight year old girl named leyla fowler. So let's talk about the appeal, that's happening as it has been granted a new trial according to a three judge panel in Sacramento. They think that two of the four interviews conducted with eyes air bout. His sister are going to be inadmissible. They were deemed inappropriate. He was not made aware of his miranda rights and because of the presence of his father barney during the interviews, it was, I guess, a bad influence or something to that effect

Well, his father was actually prompting him to tell the police what he knew tat. He was adding additional pressure onto Isaiah yeah. Just Tell them what you know basically- and that is a lot of pressure for a young kid and twelve, not even a teenager yet- and he has the police really putting pressure on him for some of these enter Yes, there is an fbi. Agent is well and then you have his dad saying now just tell them what you know. Typically, when you have apparent they're supposed to kind of keep an eye on things and give you support not quite a lawyer but someone who has your best interests at heart and that's where this does seem a little off that he's putting pressure on him, but, of course, you know some time after this, his dad will kind of change course and definitely for his son, and actually, I guess you could say, drives away

get times between his son in law and the police, because he's then trying to protect him from all this pressure alleys questions when he feels like you're, not getting anywhere and that's the problem is in the beginning. They were very forthcoming with police. They were very cooperative. They did every the police asked he allowed his son to be questioned as many times as the police wanted to talk to him in those quote, unquote for interviews that took place. There are inconsistency with his statements all the way, the man banging on the bathroom door. Yelling I know you're in there too, him running out and chasing after him almost one version of the story compared to another there's things that are omitted.

yeah seems like in one story, he's saying that he actually chase the man out of the residents and in another one he's just picking out from the open bathroom nor to see what's going on. I guess these discrepancies aren't that big of a deal to me, It's not like you saying I wasn't at home during this attack and then oh yeah, I was it's almost details that he forgot when he was retelling the story. I didn't mean that much to me when I heard about the inconsistencies and these statements, but they did heavy on the reason The initial judge found him guilty so now with the appeal making two of these interviews inadmissible, which you take out two of the four you're not going to have as many inconsistencies between his statements now so this works his favor, if they're, using these interviews against him, but really,

The sense that there is also concern because he is just twelve years old if you get a conviction and there wasn't any question about how he was interviewed were what role his dad They have played in this in terms of how the interviews conducted than me, you could say it was not a fair trial and I have a problem with minor being interviewed and interrogated, but his father was present. If you look at the way the interviews were conducted, they weren't being hard ass, his honor they were not being grasses were actually very passive with them. They were very civil interviews. It's one of those things where I dont like mine, is being interviewed without legal counsel. But since this incident. This murders happened. California is actually

a new law code, section six to five dot, six, which requires youth of fifteen years or younger, to consult with legal counsel prior to a custodial interrogation, but that wasn't enacted until later When I think this is significant, because I know at least I've said it in the past, but you would like to at least have apparent there, but in this case, having apparent their didn't actually help, except if you're looking at it from you, know his legal defence. Now they can appeal, but you would think just having apparent there would help, He didn't know what I'm saying. There's a question here now, even though his dad was present, I mean in a lawyer, not his father. I don't think there would have been a problem with this and the fact that his father, was initially on law enforcement sides. I hate they got stuff on. You just tell the truth, Tom. What happened? Even if it was an accident or whatever it is, you is putting it

No pressure on his son- and here we are thinking- cannot work. we're old boy, not be cracked by seasoned investigators and fbi agents and pass appalling of test. Is a twelve year old able to clean up crime scene and get away with the perfect murdered. These are issues that people that are, in, I say as corner have an there. There is issues with the physical and found, but I think there is enough in my mind, to show and probably wasn't an intruder, but we're talking about a twelve year old, still at europe. That's already served what five little over five years behind bars incarcerated in the juvenile system. If he didn't get the appeal, he only five more years right, I think, was actually going to be eight as he would be twenty one well because of his age. They can't just send him to prison

so they sent him to be juvenile detention centre or whatever yeah is the El Dorado juvenile hall? He could stay there. Till he becomes comes in a dull, and so will it can only hold him for so long. They could have gotten him for sixteen, and I think the The judge just cut it down to eight, so he served more than a third of his sentence. While the judge- judge thomas a smith gave him a sentence that reflected his conviction. Second degree: murder. Conviction in a case like this, is sixteen years to life and said I say, had already been locked up for a while for almost a third and days he early had deserve another thirteen point, five years, but they're saying because you know, no one serves their whole sense unless, unless Given a life sentence, the lot of people can get out early with good behaviour. In this case there saying they'll, typically

hold someone who, a minor until there. twenty three. Which I guess that makes sense right. I mean, after all, he wasn't eighty, scenery wasn't twenty five there are probably The factors are here, including his age, his maturity. He gets a retrial, it's possible, that he could get re sentenced for more time or, as time served or he gets off. Those are pretty much our three option I think, but when I look at this, I think even if he absolutely did this- and this is gonna- come off gonna cold, but He was twelve years old. any served over five years. This is now the family whose being reviewed am, I guess in losing their son. Also

saying that an eight year old girl doesn't deserve justice, but whose getting the justice from this. Now the families lost two children. If the parents or on his side they want him home? Well as it just everybody else that wants justice now and has nothing to do with the people that are actually involved with the case. It's a hard one to wrap your head around. While that sounds, some people see it oh. I know I can go back to the story of when they were raising money. They had a bake, sale, They were doing there was auction coming up a spaghetti dinner and a lot of people getting involved but as soon as they arrested Isaiah a lot of support went away and people were quoted as saying I am not going to pay for his court costs so these locally it seemed like a lot of people. That Isaiah was the killer, I didn't want to support that, but again the family,

who lost their daughter there in saying I say I didn't do this, we need to get him free because that going to get us down the path to justice for leyla, but. mean, is it more according to them? It is because, if he her brothers innocent, then keeping him locked up is dashes further, harm to the family and further harm to the king, because they're not finding the real killer. Let's say it is an intruder. What do they have to go on? They have a hare justin. Where they had the root of the hair showed apart partial profile, as far as I remember for leyla and then there, dna found on the hare that long to an unknown mail by it how no they're saying it's a full profile but in all my reading of it. I've read a couple, a different things. I read one that they ran it through the codex system, which is the combined dna indexing system and they

find a match, although it will regularly cycle through that as more dna is added but I'll read somewhere that they couldn't completely say that it wasn't a family member that was responsible for that dna profile. Rather, knots nodded dna profile, then I would say it's probably a partial. Well, you know- and this is a good case for arguing I don't really get the full details. Sometimes, when you just read a few articles, because some people are saying she died in our later after the call was made. But that's not true, you know when given a time of death dashes at the point where they ve given try doesn't mean you didn't die earlier, so they can. Tricky, and it really comes down and to how a journalist, relate the story to us if he read it in over bade him if you just take it to heart, just as its written, then you can prosper

We go down the wrong path, sometimes with some of this information, and I know what the time of death that's a serious point of contention for a lot of people with this case, because the initial law enforcement that showed up said she was called to the touch meaning she had been dead for a period of time. Whereas m, tease and other people say that the right they did up fingernail pinch test and the blood came back within a few seconds which is literally the same amount of time that it comes back for somebody that's living, so it was happened just prior, which adds more two eyes is story of hay. This happened and I called for help right away as opposed to this happened, and then I took time to you up and then called for help me out. Some are suggesting that she was attacked, probably somewhere. tween, ten thirty eleven say I say The same will happen and I called my parents what we have here and the prosecution, and the judge agreed that

it took him over a minute to inform emergency dispatchers, that is, sister had been attacked or stabbed. So it's a minute of him talking about an intruder, giving d, health, which, right there I actually more on his side and not then that part, because, unlike what yeah, that nine on one dispatchers are trying to get information. It might take a whole minute or minute and a half before you get him. and telling them what's happened so I dont really look at that and put that in the guilty basket. Well, but don't they ask right away? What's your emergency and if his first deeds, EL is: there was an intruder: that's not going to help a sister and again were asking it kid a twelve year old to me now, you what's right to get help there right away. the answer where they going to send they send an officer out when they medium tease again,

twelve year old. So you could debate that back and forth all night. I stop putting a lot of credibility into Somebody comes across during a nine when one call yeah oh it's just that. I can sit here and say. I am pretty much believe that this kid murdered his sister by it, I believe that our justice system has a lot more progress to make it It's more evolution, because there are circumstances that I don't think we're fully accounting for when we're handing out sentences I'm not saying that the initial sentencing was wrong. I just think we all. We should always be careful when we send some minor. You are talking about this with you earlier. You know we don't always talk before cases, but in the swine. We would be both really focused on the fact that if you have a young kid like that, committing murder. Maybe they need some help.

just locking them up, isn't going to do any good. I know that he was going to get an education staying with the juvenile hall absolutely because even if they do put him away for another ten years or something and to a system that, for the most part makes monsters and it's very rare that we see rehabilitation and the? U s. Justice system or punishment is the point, not rehabilitation. The other rehabilitation I think comes about, usually because the person whose incarcerated decide to go down that path. It's it's a heck of a path, taken. We know some of those stories where people have done that. that would be the question here in and that's where I would like to see. Instead, of doing a retrial wound they make him an offer. I know that both sides are against that, but make him an offer. You know I I just would like to see

progress made here, something that may be can rescue him from that dark places in. I would like to see maybe being court ordered to psychiatric care or being put on house rest. I would prefer to see that for a twelve year old who murders then jail time or prison still This is someone who probably needs a lot of help if they do something like this. that's not to say he's, not a killer in the making were you know he's going to do it again addressing he won't be, but if he killed his sister, maybe there was other stuff going on that. Might help explain why it went down this way. We do know that the parents had a very contentious divorce. His mother worley wasn't involved in his life. His that mother seem to be maybe three I should have been better than they were. I dont know, but he definitely had some issues and

that the prosecution and offence went back and forth over possible threats. He had made possible both about what he could get away with it again that those are debatable points, but are they useful? I just would like to know the he's going to get help and I think that's waymore potent then knowing that he's gonna get put away for a long time. Some time after the record, of our episode eyes a fowler had his retrial. He was again found guilty of murder. previous sentencing. Stay, that he would remain in jail until he turned twenty three years old. The judge can either in that same sentence or hand down a new one. His attorney plans to he'll again by taking the case back to or that it originally or returned his conviction on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Thirdly, his passionate about the perfect fit and they believe it's time for your broad, a fit. You not the other way around their collections. Are I end by women for women, so you will the way you feel under each and every look and now

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