December 15th, 1994. Catasauqua, Pennsylvania. Joann Katrinak, and her baby, had planned to go Christmas shopping with her mother-in-law but she never arrived to pick her up despite calling to say that she was on her way there. Her husband, Andrew, was surprised to not find his wife and child at home after arriving there after work. Joann's car was found abandoned outside of a local bar and evidence found within the vehicle suggested foul play. Months later, the remains of Joann and Alex were found on a remote farmland. Two suspects were eyed by the authorities; Andrew Katrinak and his ex-girlfriend, Patricia Rorrer. One of them surely killed the young woman and the child. As evidence was collected and the investigation ramped up, one of the suspects stood out to detectives. But were they on the right path?
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From wondering, I didn't do a pretty good just an hour. You doing. I am doing great I actually wasn't doing great early because I had like thrown my back out. I was carrying heavy stuff and there's a whole litany of injuries in the last two weeks and as my wife puts it, she goes
Are you injured? Are you just getting old harry you as you're just getting old. You know, then it's like a if this is the new norm yeah, so I'm doing better now, you're just interviewed on another show. Now by the time this comes out. That interview will be out it's with esther from let's talk about true crime. She has other true crime podcasts also once upon a crime? We like asked her quite a bit cheese known to be probably the most supportive podcast her out there and, so when she asked, if I would do an interview that was an easy answer Oh, I'm gonna give our usual disclaimer the general Why are not advocates? We do follow narratives we We do our own research. We do on reading and we come to our own conclusions. That said, we are typically at odds with both people.
Think someone's guilty or people who think somebody's innocent, because we won't follow either sides narrative and that puts us at odds with them. So with all that said, it doesn't mean that were not trying to be unbiased. We are always trying to be. bias and that's why we don't follow the narratives. We just like to get it right, yeah, but tonight's case the accused does have support and a lot of advocates and I'm sure they won't like how we portray some of the evidence and am sure people that think this person is absolutely guilt, won't like how we portray some of the evidence with no fees or minimums banking with capital. One is the easy: decision in history of decisions even easier than citing to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast with no overdraft fees. Is it even a decision that banking re imagined what's in your wallet term supply? see capital one dot, com, slash bank capital, one in
member of the icy price line it goes. Saying that we're all missing travel right now, but you know elsewhere, missing getting more for less with price sign, you can save up to sixty percent on your favorite hotels, and you can also get exclusive deals on car rentals flights and more and when you save more, you can do more more wild. view- is incredible. More another round of room service, more sorry, boss, I'm going to extend my vacant, in price line knows every trip is a big deal so when you're ready to book your next one check out price line, dot com. for the easiest way to get more how an extent vacations. But that said what are we talking about tonight, well tonight we're talking about the case of Joanne Catherine. and her son Alex when they went missing the two sus
in the case where the husband who was andrew catholic, as well as his ex girlfriend, patricia roar. And so ass. We go to this case. Those were the two people who no one said that they were working together so we're looking at this says there are two different suspects. One of them may have done. This has been. Did it case goes right? We could do that, and I think, if we did down every case are batting average would be pretty good. I say that conference But in all fairness you know when you look at individuals, you have to look at everything on a case too spaces. So this took place. song december, fifteenth. Ninety! Ninety four catasauqua pennsylvania, Joanne Marie oconnor catch her neck, was born on october. Eleventh nineteen sixty eight,
who was born in hack, its town, new jersey and andrew. Her husband was born on September twentieth. Nineteen. Fifty four do the math. There is a pretty big age gap there patricia roar, was born on January twenty. Fourth, nineteen sixty four joanne was very, very optimistic, loving person in ninety ninety two. She met thirty eight year old, Andrew her neck, and he was a building contractor. It said that it was love at first sight. It was a long before they ended their relationships. They had been in, they got to there and quickly married home was in catasauqua pennsylvania. They would. a baby together, a boy named Alex now patricia roar was an ex girlfriend of andrew and they
did back in nineteen. Eighty four to nineteen, eighty, nine and turn off again in ninety. Ninety one, roar allegedly sought andrew out for comfort when she had been beaten by a new boyfriend. She had a long line of abusive relationships and her boyfriend's were ex cons, thieves, drug use. Is it just a really sad cycle of abuse with her and any time she was depressed or she needed support should reach out to andrew, by all accounts. Winnie Andrew was finally with Joanne. They were platonic. Friends like he wasn't dating. Sure he wasn't seeing her on the side. This wasn't an affair. This was just friends who help each other out and dark times, so Patricia ended up moving.
north carolina after she broke up at andrew. At some point she met a guy and she became pregnant, but we're talking about this case because something terrible happens: oil december fifteen nineteen. Eighty four one fifteen p m joanne places a call to her mother in law. This is Andrews. Mother to letter oh that she would be honour way soon to pick her up. They are planning to go christmas shopping, so the mother in law, weights and waits by Joanne and her child never show up Joanna husband, Andrew he gets home from work about six thirty p m at first everything seems normal. This might be a stretch of time later, but east turkestan no
is issues in the house. One is that the hinge on the basement door was pried out and that a telephone line was cut so now he's concerned at first it was. He knows his wife's heading out with the child and, of course, her purse and stuff are gone, so it seems normal, but with the line cut and the hinge off now, it's like maybe something bad has happened, and it's one thousand and thirty I even if she was out she would have been home hours earlier, so he's calling his mother he's calling other family members. None of them have seen her his mothers as well. We were supposed to go shopping which never showed up ten thirty at night. He decides to call the police. port, his wife and child missing and remember, he didn't call the police until ten thirty at night
He had already been home by that time, both for hours, Andrews, initial statements to the police are, my wife didn't come home and then he finds the door to the basement broken. He finds the phone line cut, but the phone line that's cut is not the main line. It's only a branch I'm going up to a bedroom, but it's in the basement he's telling the police he's giving them more and more information with each time. He talks to them even says that had he drove around looking for his wife's car, it did not located, but then the police find her car not too far from the house and a parking lot so it's looking a little suspicious on Andrews parties. I ok, you look for your wise car and it was actually right behind your house. So why didn't you find it? man's car was located in the lot of a local bar. The keys were actually locked inside of it a friend
sixteen and going over this car and they're looking for evidence, because at this point I made might be too early to say that it feels like foul play, so they. Why is much evidence as they can find they I and strands of long blonde hair. This is on the driver's seat had rest. since joanne was aroun at and the hair is blonde. Well, it doesn't seem, like would be her hair. They also found blot on that hair in the sea. Was pushed back as if a very tall or large person was driving the car. Now the police Initially they look into Andrew catch her neck and they decide his alibi checks out they check with his work. He was at work the check with his mother, who said yeah. He comes home at this time. He called me looking for his wife and child everything checks out, now. The time frames that his mother and Andrew give slightly
deviate from a lot of the police reports. But it's not something where it's like. Oh well. This had to have happened at this time. So therefore they're lying it's while they're just remembering that day and there are remembering and a little bit differently than the next person April nice nights. Ninety five, the farmers working on his land. And he sees what do you think he suspects it's a bundle of clothing, but it's out of place so he gets close to it and then he makes a terrible discovery. He finds to dead bodies, it's a woman and a bay, be out. This baby was on the woman's chest your first. as it must be her baby. The bodies were recovered and the medical examiner performed. Autopsy on each of them they were confirmed be joanne and Alex catholic. So this missing persons case has now become a murder investigation I found a baby rattle near by.
it turned out. It was Alex his favorite toy. It look like, I think it looked like a telephone or something Other items were collected which included a diaper bag and a milk bottle, and bottle were a few strands of blonde hair. I remember they found blonde hairs on the headrest of japan's car. They checked them a microscope and they were very similar to those found in the car and well. She didn't have blonde hair so a suspicious. They also find a fingernail on the body and it appears that there might have been a struggle or that joanne had but a little bed now with two hundred dollars being found on Joanna body. I think of his inside of her clothing, and no drury taken in there's no suspicious bank activity on her accounts now detectives our thinking. This has got to be foul play. They start interviewing neighbors and people in the area.
No one has seen or heard anything suspicious or know anything about joanna activities that evening. Its found that joanne has been shot in the face with a twenty two caliber and she's been beat about the head and face. She has multiple lacerations skull fractures day. Count nineteen blows altogether, so she was shot and and beaten its kind of interesting, as you don't know what order, but you can assume that somebody shorter and
Maybe the gun jammed or they shot or wants, or maybe they beaten her a little bit shorter didn't killer and they beat her some more while the detectives, their theory is that the gun jammed after being shot once and so the perpetrator went on to beat the victim until she succumbed, but that's a theory there's nothing in them. medical examiners report that clarifies what they believe actually happened. It's just are the scenarios that could have happened and they believe this is how she died as is Alex goes given. The conditions out at the time he was there, it's quite possible. He died from exposure, but they couldn't rule out that he had been suffocated. Just the image of the child laying across his his chest. Actually, I guess I realized that I'm human again, because that's a really haunting pitcher to have
When more note about the autopsy is they were trying to determine when was that job and Alex died. Unfortunately, because of the way the weather was, they said that it could have been any time between December twenty, first and some time in february, so you're talking about it, the three month period, while all we can say is that it seems likely that they died. probably not long after they disappeared in December. I guess the warm temperatures that happen during much of later december that it could have affected the insect, activity now joanne and Alex's bodies were located about fifteen miles away from their home. It was interim, area police? checking this out. They found the only people that really went to the area where horseback writers, and so when they
viewed andrew and he gave them some information on his ex girlfriend named patricia roar, who just happen to manage the horse stable. She had managed stable. It was this overshadow farm stable and it was a mild down the road where the bodies were found. They start to think wait a minute You know she knows that area. So here's a possible connection now she had been living in north carolina for a few years when they went to her home to talk to her. They were looking at her hair and she was a brunette. So obviously it wasn't her hair that was found in the car right justin. Well, that's the obvious assumption, as well as we're looking for blonde and she's brunette when the police are talking to patricia. This is maybe a week after the disappearance and their look here and I like, while she's Burnett and should not miss
a fingernail. So a she doesn't appear to be our suspect, but we have to interview everybody and she's. Not. It is apparent that they're not honing in on her just quite yet, because they still have the husband that they're trying to vet so its multiple interviews going on at this time, but its later that they start trying to get out. By trying to get witnesses to back up patricia stories Patricia, is also giving alibis. She wants to say that she was not involved and here's. Why saying that she was at a private club that she was buying food for the horses that she was at a tanning salon, but there are definitely questions about patricia and as time goes on, obviously they have to down the suspect list than others
with two really the husband or this ex girlfriend, but it's really only because she kind of fits. That she knew the area and that she might have had a beef with Andrew's family, because maybe she wanted to be with andrew. whole reason. Why she's a suspect is because, Andrew through, under the bus, he told the police that she had called the house before the abduction before his wife went missing? his wife, joanne and patty, had a argument over the phone. This argument was joanne telling patty don't call here anymore, don't call my husband, your unwelcome now patty says we were just friends I was calling cause. I was having a bad day and I didn't think much it, but at the same time it bother joanne. So I just moved on, she seemed
dismissive of this phone call. But it's because of this phone call dead ox andrews memory of while I know something went down a few days before she went missing so might want to check out patricia, and not only did he tell police this, but he actually call old. He actually called somebody in north carolina to confirm that patricia was home at the time of his wife's disappearance in that person said yeah. She was here So Andrew thought: well, at least it wasn't my ex girlfriend He was doing his own little investigation work and his investigation work kind of makes him look a little suspicious because once they identified where his wife's car was parked, he went to the car. He got inside turned it on saw that you know there wasn't much gas and there he looked in
and he got inside the car so he's tainted. The evidence is tainted this crime scene, where the hairs the blonde hers were found They look at purchase roars phone records. They want to try and figure out whether she could have made the call that andrew had referenced things like that, and one thing that they did notice was that she also Every day made many calls some them long distance calls because she had moved north carolina says she knew people on pennsylvania's, either call etc, but she didn't make any calls. Between December, eleventh and december sixteenth, which would be the time frame
during which joanne and Alex disappeared so another red flag. Remember this is the mid early nineties. We don't have cell phones, we have landlines, there's call records for everything for someone not to make a single phone call for five days, probably not home. Now. The weird thing at this point is that patricia roar had a lot of enemies and she was accused of stealing horses because she ran a stable and did different things so some of her enemies they claim that they actually were watching her at this time and again, how credible is this, but some of them said well at that point between December eleventh in december, sixteenth
wasn't around much, but she was home again. This is a little shaky because who are these people Are they actually people that hate her? are keeping their eyes honour or the people that know her and are trying to vouch for her. It's it's a little shaky but they're saying that they saw her in that time frame. Now she talks about the cowboys night club in north carolina, the knight of the disappearance, well, the club had it signing sheet other people signed in, but one name that was missing from that sign in sheet was patricia, so she says she's at this club that has a sign in cheap but her name's, not It will be explained away later that, while the sign in she gets put out right it, you know o clock or something and she got the early. So
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no patricia owned a twenty two caliber guy, because they know that the type of firearm it was used to kill joanne. She says no right as she denies owning such a gun. But then one of her ex boyfriend said: oh no. She and such a gun. She had it on her all the time. In fact, he was talking about how she hurt her gun was, a chrome plated, semi automatic weapon and they had a unique feature, that it would jam after firing just one shot feature or no It is interesting because that would fit with the detectives theory that the gun jammed after being fired once in July. and then the gun then used to beat her about the head up to nineteen times do you own a gun? No, I don't. Ah, yes, she did own a gun. It was a twenty two caliber. So chief forget she owns this gun. Well here,
The thing is they ve caught her in a lie and the asker like where's the gun and saying Oh no, I dont know where this gun is. I haven't used it in a long time and then she said, oh my mom borrowed it ma am patricia mom says. Well. I was a bus driver at the time I accidentally had it on me. When I was going to work, I gave it to the oldest daughter to hold onto and the oldest daughter says she got rid of it or something, but that story will change later. Take note of that. She said she didn't have a gun, but then every single family, member and her and her family know she has this gone, even her ex boyfriend they're playing this musical chairs of who had the gun at this time. It's this hot potato game and who knows but later on
friends, sandra and Stephen ireland say that patricia mom showed up, gave him a gun and said make sure the police don't find it. This is looking pretty bad. While this couple now says that this happened, but they said they declined to hold onto the gun for churches, mom, so they're turning it down, but they remember this because I think anybody remember that you know someone showed up your house's said: hey. Could you hold on this gone for me. Maybe the gun, ended up in the oldest daughters, possession. Who then claim she buried it or got rid of it, but regardless they got rid of this gun, so the police. Have a murder weapon or a weapon to check the ballistics on They were able to recover a lot of spent shells and patricia backyard, but that doesn't really give you all the ballistics that you need Andy bullet that was red, recover
from Joanne pretty mingled it's not something that can they can really used to match up This is why it's a circumstantial case, because at this point there destroying show that patricia roar did own at twenty two caliber gun. The other thing they to check into, because she's looking very suspicious, is what hair color did she have back in december of nineteen eighty four turns out that in their investigation they turned up a picture from a horse show in Oklahoma. and this was eleven days before Joanne Alex disappeared. she seen with a number of people in the picture, but its very clear that she has blonde hair, This picture is dated eleven days before joanne and Alex disappeared. Now this heritage is recovered from both the crime scene of where they found jones' body and her car. These hairs are sent to an f b. I testing
lab and dna testing. Mitochondrial dna testing is something that brands banking knew now the difference between dna testing and the conjugal dna testing is dna testing. You can say this dna matches, you know Aaron now, mitochondrial dna is this. Dna matches Aaron's family from his mother on. So it's not excluding were proving that errand was there, but it's showing that its from his family regardless. If this hair is tested- and it comes back belonging to patricia or her family well It doesn't really matter at that point because it proves that she was in the car when she wasn't supposed to be so. This type of peace Your testing was relatively new at the time and
you can imagine that when it comes back that it fits patricia, roars profile enough, because it's in that line from her mother down that The kind of defence she has will look at and say all this is to new. You can't trust this because its literally like the first case they're using this testing method on So how sound is it they're coming up with a new thing like just imagine, the first time they figure out. We can use a fingerprint to convict somebody while the defences gonna say How do you know? Everyone has a unique fingerprint? How do you know that this is an exact match? How do you know, and so it's it's an argument there, but so far you can see that hair color had changed, see denied owning a gun. She said that he hadn't gone too
albania on and on and on. But there are all these questions popping up. Now and her alibis, are in serious doubt so things are looking good ferber, treasurer June twenty. Fourth, t ninety seven. This is We're six. A m detectives show up. I patricia wars house in there to arrest her and she's holding her child yeah, whose distraught now one of the police claims that he heard her tell her daughter. If I knew I was gonna get caught, I would have never brought you into this world and I apologize to her daughter which your thoughts on that just because that seems like a very damning statement. You know there's a lot of things. in this case that I literally just throw out and as much as somebody like why would a police officer lie about that? Well, you're,
arresting a woman who is accused of murdering another woman and child- maybe he just wants to nailer to the wall, in my mind or how we do things, I think, is if you can't document it measure it or prove it I'm gonna throw it out. So I dont know if she actually said this to her daughter or not. I think I am this idea that she's telling her daughter stuff makes sense and Do you believe that she told her daughter things in her Fancy may have told her daughter something like if I had known I would be arrested for murder, then I wouldn't have brought you into this world because no mother wants to leave her child behind and that's what this is looking like. She knows if she gets arrested for this and she go the core. She may very well never see her daughter outside of prison. Again, it's a huge weight, so they arrest patricia roar and
The growing theory is that, on December fifteen. Ninety ninety, for some time after one in the afternoon, patricia broke into the basement of the catch home and listened in on joanne phone call with her mother in law when she knew that joanne was getting ready to leave she caught the phone line and then Basically, I guess it would be servant ambush on Joanne. She has a gun so then she orders heard a drive to this remote area and that's when she kills Joanne. She shooter the pistol jams and then she beat her to death and left the baby. There. Tricia's chest and left the break. At the house in the phone line being cut or or just sort of weird
areas here. The prosecutor believes that she used joyance car and the commission of this kidnapping and murder. I'm not sure she dead or not but she either ambushed her at the house, or maybe she intercepted her on the road. something that is a little loose and it's something that advocates for patricia will definitely attack. They will say at this murder was very brutal and that they didn't find a bloodbath inside of Joanna car. The charge is where two counts of kidnapping. And two council first degree, murder, and the way this all adds up is that she's committing a felony and the commission of this crime these are serious charges and they could result in the prosecution asking for the death penalty now. We've already said that they never found a weapon. They do have
number of witnesses. That say they know that patricia roar had a gun so heading into this trial, which that the trial begins February six. Ninety. Ninety eight witches some three years after the crime, just in many houses looking for patricia going into the trial, because it is a circumstantial case, well, There's a lot of emotion here. When you have a mother and child brutally murdered, you have harris found that they're gonna claim came from Patricia if Patricia had better defence attorneys. I would say that you know you could probably get benefit of the doubt here, but her attorneys, not that good well in the prosecutor, does something that we often talk about, which is a checklist. So you good on the chair, Let me say how many these things match this aspect, how we match the other. They came up with a different check boxes for patricia roar being
perpetrator in the murders of joanne and her son, Alex they came up with opportunity. Motive means science. They came the gun, the alibis the lies. The statements no other suspect has that many check boxes checked off and how they should. They checked into the husband and premature thing checked Now there are some questions because it took him four hours to call the police, but in oh all, told they found evidence that matches patricia roar both at the scene and joint cataracts car and then she seemed to lie about a gun and head Lastly, changed her hair color at a very interesting time so heading into the trial. It really comes down to whose hunting the better case. It's it's a debate, it's an argument and when it comes, to it while it's a circumstantial case, the press You shouldn't as a really good job of saying. I pay attention
bring in all these witnesses and their goal. The bureau lay out for you how we know that been lying every step of the way and she the motive and the aperture. Maybe in the means to commit these crimes lot of the website. As I've read that are very much on purchases side. Will point out. A lot of inconsistencies with Andrew his mother his family, their statements, their initial statements to the police? Also, they look at the timelines from the police reports to the family statements and they're. Like those don't match up one thing they really harp on is joins mother in law, saying she called me. She said she was on her way and then in trial, her mother, in law,
says she called me and said: I'm gonna get some stuff together all be over there. In forty five minutes I will not changes the entire timeline. Also, the phone call between joanne am patricia roar Andrew said, while she called just days before they went missing, while phone records show that she actually called many days before, like a week before They went missing and it was a twenty minute phone call. It wasn't a short little argument, but I am looking at this and I think ok, whether or not the mother in law said she. Coming right over or coming over forty five minutes later in the middle of the day with a husband I'm getting home until six thirty at night. How does this shit anything around that much and then I look at when the phone call happened. So it was a week before or it was a few days before.
Really understanding how that changes anything or puts all of this into question. We owe this the case, we could easily get sidetracked and start. May king mountains, a more hills on things that dump There is much ensure everybody has their own opinion on each bit of information, but you still have to look at the key evidence in the case and when a phone call happen, isn't as important as say a cigarette but which we don't even get to yet, but as you down the list of the evidence. There's a lot of evidence against this ex girlfriend of andrews- and you found during the motive which was she was. Rage by being told that she couldn't talk andrew anymore, she felt She had lost this guy. That You already said he'd. She had all. Bad relationships, but andrew was always the sky that she can always go back to.
and she knew she could call and talk to him, and he would be therefore now he's being removed from her life the only comfort and her world is an removed. the serious thing. I don't think we should make light of it. It's it's. You know for any one who had a rough go of thing. when they have someone they can lean on and then that per it's gone it's it's hard because that's port system. You no longer have the there's that were recovered were sent to the fbi and they were mounted. Meaning he took them and he put them in the lab and that's where they stayed now. When the police had raided patricia's home, they had taken hairs from her to compare, because at that point they did have hair follicle analysis where they would try to match up hair follicles,
although that's kind of pseudoscience now, but he doesn't really pan out yeah, but at the time that was a thing well, they delivered more hairs to the f b I lab, but this was after they had taken samples from patricia and initially both enforcement and the f b I had said the hairs were torn from the head. It didn't appear that they had roots on them and that's the whole thing about testing hair. Is you have to have the route in order to the dna test, and it was initially stated that they did not have routes. or maybe one of them how to root them by trial, Oh yeah, we had like four hairs with routes where we had six hairs with routes. The defence doesn't take issue with this. They don't see
hey what what's goin on here I do. You said there is no routes, and now there were routes, so there is a discrepancy there, but The original hairs that they had given to the fbi were mounted in the lab those hairs by all accounts. China custody was never broken. Those are the original hairs, but their questioning these other hairs that were delivered after the fact saying. Well, that was little switch rule. The law enforcement was framing her for this murder. So these other hairs that were delivered at a later date were planted or switched out with the ones that they had gathered from patrician, its main sticking point for her supporters and I think it's a very important thing to bring up because if they're using is dna to convict her well, how good, as the china cassie? How good is these hairs? Had they ve collected
also the defence talks about how far away patricia lived? This is like a ten hour drive, I think, think nine or ten hour drive, so she drives hundreds of miles from the carolinas up the pennsylvania. and she's in the small town, no ones he's her? She not staying at any hotels and she's in a big red van. nobody notices her around. What's up at that, you know they're saying there is no witnesses that put her at the scene of the crime, there's no physical evidence at the home. That shows you know she was inside the home. They also point out that the car joann's car there was no horse hair or none of patricia's blood was in there, and if this was a knock down, drag out fight, wouldn't she have left more
it's in the car, but remember she left hairs in the car. There's blonde harrison there. The testing on the blood on the hair is found the headrest revealed. There was Ann's blood on their hair, so it's pretty definitive whoever's blonde hair. This is is the murderers because they were murdering joanne in blood was spattering back onto them and onto their hair. You don't get any more definitive Dinners and his hair doesn't match andrew catholic now, and you have that fingernail on the body to that they found and a cigarette. But so this is. All staff that the finger now well Andrew was missing one and it said that patricia wasn't missing one either, but the cigarette but was tested for dna, and it revealed that
it did have. Dna present in that was Patricia roars. That's not even part of the argument of there were additional hairs that were swapped out, so I guess they took swabs of her mouth and then rubbed it cigarette, but my only rethinking said that, but yards it said when they're trying to determine her alibis. They found out that her mother was actually calling around to local businesses and asking them. If Patricia, was there that day? Obviously the prosecution will say, while you were fishing for an alibi and the defence will say no, we were trying to do the detectors, work for them and figure out her movements because they didn't even attempt to vet her alibis at all. Will in any case, you can focus on certain things, and we ve said it before how you disk the case you could literally skip over some things, and you could present a case where someone seem completely innocent.
I know recently. We are talking about now. so I was walking lie with people about ronnie red. We covered his case back when an I think settled on the timeline doesn't fit him, but I hesitated innocent only because even though I don't think he killed stacey stites, I I know for a fact that he was a rapist, and so, It doesn't you know, I'm not saying we should put him to death for a crime. He didn't commit saying that at all I'm just saying he said well a violent criminal, and so when we discuss cases, I just want to know what happened in each case. So whether it's ronnie read or pressures roar, I want to truly figure out whether they did the crime they were accused of. That we're discussing in this case, Patricia rohrer, has a lot of evidence against her, and I know her supporters like to point out some of these inconsistencies or things
have a problem with or as in every case, our questions remaining, but show me the evidence that Andrew was a better suspect because even going through their sites and their arguments I dont see good list of checkmark said say he has more. He makes a better suspect If he was missing a fingernail I'd be like do. Why aren't you going after the sky, but he's not, and he doesn't have a gun and, according to his family members, when police were targeting him, I'll, say he had the wrong guy. You need to find who killed, Joanne and Alex you need did not focus on andrew now. I know that just because the family says he's a good guy, he loved his wife doesn't mean much, but they didn't report any sort issue, any conflict, no million dollar life insurance policy. None of these things
and he didn't appear, that he was wanting to leave his wife or patricia so a lack of motive. Have you know. I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers an incredible select. of audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities down experts and as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audio books, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership, I get one title a month to keep and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book anti social about online, extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation
Audible, hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP were text gaeta, BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dot, com, slash J, w p. Now, during the trial, the jurors were taken to the site where joanne and Alex's buys were found. And with them when patricia roar, and so it's kind of an interesting thing where they kind of take the jurors around and show them where certain things were found where the bodies were found, give them a sense of the scene. It said that Patricia He didn't show any emotion or anything and sometimes she would just stare off at the sky to say when Andrews on the stand, he seems
motionless or even happy at points. So he's obviously, lt of killing his wife, because he is not allowed to joke, not allowed to smile or be happy for years after the fact. So before we get to the verdicts justin, let's go over the things that patricia roars supporters say you know there are questions about andrew's actions, both at the house and with the car. Can we just go over there real, quick before we move on now he calls police for hours
is after he gets home from work. He claims that he went searching for her car and couldn't find it, even though it was very close to the house. He called back to the police several times as he found more things wrong, which is claimed to be inconsistent, but I can look at it and think it might just be additional information and he admits that once they discover the car that he goes to the car and gets inside of it. So not good things. He also gets the phone call date, long, between, joanne and patricia and his mother gets the time wrong. I guess on when they were supposed to go shopping that day I know there were some questions about whether andrew is actually Alex's father, and I mean this best as I can figure out they buy
sickly only tested andrew to see if he could father a child and it showed that he could. I think it's because Patricia heads ed, she wasn't sure that Andrew could actually father a child so that there was looked into that much. Some people have zimbabwe, and they just do a dna tests to see if he was Anders child. But I guess at least for the investigators. They didn't see a question here. Well, that's the whole other, I guess alternative theory if, if you don't believe that it was patricia, then what was andrews motive, o Joanne had an affair got pregnant by somebody else and then andrew figured it out was upset, murdered her and didn't want the cable It wasn't his anyways and joanne was married before she married Andrew. I guess I understand it was an abusive relationship, so there was question. Their police did speak with her ex husband. They did.
find anything that led them to believe that he was involved in this at all swear to say was he was cleared now as far as the bullet goes, that was recovered from Joanna's body We have these witnesses, one who said that he sold patricia gun. That was at once. Two caliber? Another ex boyfriend had said yeah? I know she had again. She carried it all. The time is a twenty two. When they were covered, this boy's pray mangled. They can't run- lee narrow down, which gonna came from and they came find the gun at patricia supposedly had so really that doesn't go anywhere. That's something they can use to find the killer. But if you believe that she had a gun at with jam, then it fits that profile. I shot you and now the guns jammed and I'm just going to take out my rage with the gun physic. Way, rather than shooting it, because it won't shoot me more, a surprise,
is this trial. Is they actually put patricia roar on the stand this is a kind of a rarity to have your accused, take the stand and get cross examined by the prosecutor, who's going to shreds them. That's the way, He rang air and it seems like a lot of time. The cases we cover anyway. The defence is always like, don't take the stand, but she does She answered the course that offences questions rather easily, which is now I didn't, kill them I wasn't involved, but when it comes to cross examination by the prosecution. You can do as you say, it's not my hair. I didn't do it and that's all they wrote it has. Also. but the prosecution is saying the hair was tested. It was pcr tested its. It asked your hair, it's in the lineage,
and she just saying I don't think it's my hair. Really, I think, with this trial does is. It illustrates no matter how circumstantial the cases that its way more likely, that patricia war was emboldens. Crime then catholic, because where is the evidence that he was involved, where I mean the most that he may come up with his? They think Andrew framed his ex girlfriend for this. That makes more sense. If you wanna go that route, he would have to have law enforcement and all so the people he would have to do way more to frame her, then what I think he's capable of where did he get her hair city actually snag her hairs months before and hold? to them in this. Knowing that later on, he's gonna do this and put her hairs in the car, because that's the whole narrative is while he got in the car after they found it. So what was he doing in there
ending the hairs, lots long game scheme there that I just don't think people are capable of most time but all in all she did her best, I guess so not appear rattled, but really when europe. Listening to the the contacts we live, owing to the actual substance she sang and which she's being asked. I don't think she adequately answers things she might seem conference she's, not really swatting away their questions very well. Let's get to the vote just in friday. march, seventh. Ninety ninety eight, the jury returns of verdict vague victor of two counts of first to be murder and kidnapping. They deliberated for just a few hours before they came back with this verdict and, of course, as a point of contention for defence or people who support
especially because they say that's not enough time to go over this case, but I get the feeling that, because of the way the trial went, they had a good sense before they started deliberating how they felt because the prosecution just put so many witnesses up. Present so much circumstantial evidence they really didn't of an argument on the defence side to counter that very well. They just head patricia me really. This is the same. they had patricia, stand seemingly confident, but even she couldn't bat away their questions effectively. So it's it's an expected. In fact, I would say they have to sentence patricia roar because she was found guilty and the question would be which you get the death penalty which get life. What would her sentences be and on Monday march nine, ninety ninety eight, the
jury, decided her sense, of course, before they decided it. They heard from a number of people, people who were pleading in. Oh, please, spare her life, don't put her to death. She has a child, they did their best to try and ask for mercy. In this case the jury decided that she would not be put to death. She. to life sentences, which I think in this case is expected. I think that's weight know makes sense if you going to put someone to death and there is a mother and child killed to life. Senses fits the bell she now get now just because there was a trial. There was a verdict and there was a sentencing doesn't mean that the case is over, Oh no! No! No! Because what is she get? She gets appeals by descent. Two thousand to patricia is appeal was shot down
And she tried saying that her lawyers were an effective. Essentially, I would agree with that part of the appeal actually well yeah, and but the court does and they say that, despite their enough, goodness or whatever that she maintains They don't see any way that term patricia conviction would be overturned. Based on that, which is interesting because it did seem like there were things that they could have countered or at least brought question that they do. It's sad that you know the only thing they really had on their. I was her testimony or her understand, answering questions which you didn't do that great, but I mean was really there highlight is that she stuck up for as especially good, so why didn't? They do their own testing, and so, let's get to this He has serious questions about the hair is that were tested. Could there have been a switch erthrew? Could they have taken
the hairs off her head and tested those and said: ah ha, they match her, but of course they would didn't they do some further testing it was in two thousand and seven. They came back and did further testing on the original hairs that were given to the f b. I he got realise that dna testing at that point had excelled, Science had gone crazy and now they can really test these hairs test the cigarette, but test all these things and those hairs come back as patricia roar. Now the Testing was done to see if there are the questions here, maybe patricia roar could get a new trial and if she could maybe she could get out. Maybe she could be free, but this testing didn't work out in her favour. They also tested that fingernail.
When any. We think that if a fingernail was ripped off during a malay of some type, it would have flesh on it and therefore would be testable but when they tested the finger nail, it comes back in cancun, save or no dna matter on it think. Well, how is that possible? Was this fingernail sanitized? Where did they remove all of the dna off of it somehow clean it would peroxide or something I'm thinking you have a fingernail at the scene of the crime Andrews not missing, one patricia, not missing one. So with somebody else involved, and they say that the fingernail was rather large, so wooden of fit patricia well did she have help? Did she get one of her abusive ex boyfriend to do this with her cause? The fingernails a question form is why would it be
sure, but again there was inconclusive. So all we have is the dna evidence which of course, her advocates. Her supporters are just going to say: that's all been planted. That's all been switched out by the hair that they pulled from her head and it doesn't help that in two thousand and fifteen they That labs were, I guessed, skewing results to favour prosecutions. We ve covered that will be covered it before And many many questions have and from this review, and so by one. Sixteen. It was argued the hare sent for testing are in question because the defences description of the
arr and the prosecution's description of the hair and their subsequent labs. Describe these hairs differently and how's that possible, there are lacking roots, but now they have roots there. This blonde color, now they're brunette, just things like that. There are discrepancies there. What we're left with is some people continue to question the hair. I think it's interesting they're questioning whether it's her hair or not. They never found the hairs that seem to match andrew so Really, this argument has come down to its either patricia roar that kill joanne cat neck and her son Alex or it was some other person. We don't know who I was and we're not Whether motive was so ask you using outcomes razor here. What's the likelihood that it wasn't patricia roar, it's funny that you said, because, on most of the advocates site,
it's you know they point out all these things and they're like what comes razor as she wasn't there. She didn't do this and it's occam's razor that she's, the prime suspect and she's the only one that did this, unless you want to take that fingernail into account and say she had an accomplice, you know I think passions run high when it comes to a wrongful conviction. I totally get it but in the article I was reading the author put a huge emphasis on how could patty dr hundreds of miles stock of victim in a small the town kidnap her and nobody saw her? She didn't stay at a hotel and I'm thinking she had a van. She didn't have to stay at a hotel. This is the nineteen nineties. We don't have cell phones, we don't have dashcams, we don't have red light cams. We don't have all these different things so yeah she could have driven ten hours and done something
in the back and she might not have even have done it from the eleventh to the sixteenth or whenever the prosecutor said she did it, she might have. Did it the day of and got there that morning, locked out got joanne, killed her and drove back that very night. She could have gone less than thirty six hours and done this. They ask why didn't the police chief, the mileage on her van but check it for what we didn't have a this line we didn't know what the mileage was a week ago with no idea. So his whole You have no one saw her, so she wasn't there. I just that's the wrong emphasis to go for, because I think well, nobody saw beat he or ted Bundy. So I guess he wasn't there right. It's a stupid point to make common section, also honour these articles and threads
boys always have somebody that's going to say their guilty as hell they can rotten jail in, it's probably a pretty nasty common to read, but you're advocating for somebody just ignore those comments or if you're running the website, you can delete them if you like, who cares but responding with insults to people that think this person is guilty that doesn't help your cause. Responding to anyone with insults doesn't help anyone, regardless of whether you're an advocate or not. I think they should have just stuck to the f b. I and people describe these hairs without roots and then all of a sudden roots appear. I think that's their most valid claim to this is a wrongful conviction, because that's what it comes down to is. Do you believe those hairs belonged to Patricia? If you do then she's guilty, if you don't or if you think they were planted, then that's what this all hinges on, but do you
leave that law enforcement and f b I in an f b, I lab all, were in cahoots here. Well, it's not out of the question again. I would just say Why everyone's arguing about the legitimacy of the evidence, however circumstantial against, patricia, I would just say Think about how no one spring up anything do with andrew. Really it really don't have anything theirs forensics tying and anything on top of that? Reminded us of the fact that this couple, the ira, and say that picture his mother showed up and one of them to take a gun from her mean why, There are questions in this case that just keep and came to me that patricia is very much involved and so for me, hey, look, Glad there are advocates out there. There are people that need them. There are definitely wrongful convictions that happen and probably nearly every day, but at least for me, this isn't one of them.
What's the ireland's motives to say that they came to us and asked us to dispose of a gun for by what is their motive to do this, I guess you could just say what they want to help. They want to be part of it. They want to say. Oh these. These are bad people, but that's a heck of a story to come up with me. I know in the other instances when ex boyfriend comes along and says. Oh, she added gunnar honour everyday. While they just points it will take the drug user. He didn't like her in that same ex boyfriend actually said that she had threatened him with that guy yeah. That was the last time they were actually together. I think what was he moving out or something I can't remember but yeah. He said that she was pointing that gun at him. Now I actually disregard that as much as I disregard the police officer saying that she was apology to her own baby. I'm like you can really prove it, but I don't discount the ireland statements because,
I just don't know what their mode of life they registers out of the blue couple. That's friends with the family, their friends with patricia and her mother they're on their side. They are a sympathetic party, so I take their word over. Even the police officers or the experts friends word I like to remind everyone that, in our when it comes down to these cases, were giving our opinions, because we definitely have them after we reach search the case? If, for whatever reason, you think you still have doubts in this case, you're welcome to them because- I wouldn't want anybody to ever think. Oh I've heard one argument and I'm completely can evinced and I'm changing my mind. You should always continually think about the case Is that your passion about I mean? agree that she's innocent, but I'm not going to be argued with you about it. So if you have your doubts, keep with them and keep thinking about it,
and I'll show you support. If you need to there's a tv show Keith, morrison's murder and Lee high valley. There's also a book written a convenient suspect by tammy mall her story is essentially she wanted to tell people about this murder chew when in thinking that produced roar was absolutely guilty and she reached out to her and they correspond and patricia has always maintainer innocence from the beginning. Tammy malls book called a convenience aspect. Surely very well written and has a lot of documents backing up the income, since in the case, so it's well done, but you can imagine it sir heavily biased for sure- and I think part of that is because, once you start communicating with the suspect they can get, you develop a report
yeah, and so that means something I'm not upset Amy. I think it's interesting that someone gets that involving can read a book writing a book is uneasy. No, I mean we're plugging it right now and I we totally disagree with it and right, given her huge amount, exposure beguile right. I think people should read it anyway of yemen, thoughts on this case as all You can reach out to us on twitter. It jen why pod or you can we to us, the air, facebook page,
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Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.