Tonight we're doing a big episode from feedback on line. It looks like it's a pretty big big episode. Maybe maybe crazy, but now we should also lindsey errors that we ve already thanked her in the past, but she's help she helped designer hoodies done some other artistic things for us and she than to a dot com. She makes really cool jury. Savage check that out again want to thank all the for that reason that came out to meet up its other we're looking forward to doing again some point

and wouldn't even mind doing like a smaller little meet up, maybe with people in the local area, again just sort of meet up somewhere kind of hang out and talk again, airways really great, and then also I thank all the people over time that have helped us research episodes that kind of buying the scenes it just sort of helped out manders there's no way to actually through in and thank all them individually, tat. You know who you are well, there's one more person I'd like to thank and he's Then a guest on our show a few times and he helps us out. When I'm out of town and tonight oh, is about Kurt Cobain, which. Erin, and I must admit that we actually didn't listen to nirvana at the time so we wanted to bring somebody on and give him thank you that was

and and his passionate about music. Not would be Mister Collins, how you doing man hey what's up guys super happy to be back. Thank you so much for having me on, for this really excited yeah expect you to be back on for another paranormal episode, or maybe a cryptic episode, but the worked out. Was you like message does you're like hey, if you guys decided who kirk obeying you need to have me on earlier, talk to me because it No all this stuff about the case I been into the music and then here s the thing I'm grinning the whole time. Something that's the next thing we're doing yeah. I had no idea, I just remembered, like hearing you genetic passing- and I was just listening to your last episode. and I was just like it just I had a mike. You know I would love to yale even provide some like reason your opinions on the matter. By being honest, great too, but the I've always been interested

nirvana and the music and yeah I was like totally like if they ever do that, I really want to be on and you're like what made you think to ask, that I'd like to know- nearly all. That's what we're doing now saw those kind of crazy. give a little overview, real, quick about kirkland and his band of honour, the overview would be recovering. This case because he died ninety ninety four, while much of the public as well as law enforcement that investigate the case believe that he committed suicide. There are doubts, its among some about that, finding he had a meteoric rise in the music industry. he first started out. He started in this little band called the sellouts and then after that, he had a band called montage of heck right, at least mix tape by that title that featured some of his early bans like fecal matter, pen, cab, chew yet about skid row at

point, but yea is basically doing a lot of mixed tapes of his music things like tat, sound collages, I think bliss was the last ban name he had before it turned into nirvana right and it's kind of like almost the same idea, south zactly mozart, I know he named his band Nirvana after watching a program about buddhism right. There was always kind of subtle threads of buddhist ideology like sprinkled through his interviews and some of his music, that's kind of a common thread and I wonder also because, in speaking with people about Kirk Bain everyone has their own. I guess you point on him or his impact or how they saw him as a person and one of the things I keep seeing as how brilliant he is, or was I should say when I listen to him speak in his own words about his method of writing lyrics.

It almost sounded as though stuff just came out of him, and perhaps good portions of it didn't We have a lot of thought behind it. What do you know about? It? Is this off base. His are that stuff we cared drastic and he's got a lotta interviews. I wrote the lyrics the night before things like that, but I never really look at it as kind of random. So as much as just kind of the school of thought he's from artistically because he didn't collages, like artwork and also sound collages, and things like that, and it was kind of like inspired by a lot of abstract, are in in like dada, which is an art form. If you want to read about that, I go. Where were you will see that influence, but he was about kind of stream of caution. Does it a way- and I mean, if you hear him targets like supposedly a primal basic kind of thing thing expressing so some kind of makes sense that it would just pour out of them rather than being tried- and if you know about runs a kind of against it,

dr nature of rock and like they're. All about integrity is lotta. That word gets around a lot when they talk about music. It was about just out of. In resolving. The moment I think was, is very common. What I had heard from him was he had said that He felt that never mind was perhaps do polished. Maybe that's reflection of what he had hoped which he, which was to make it more raw and more may be more honest in that regard, let me- It's a major label debut southern like some pressure, but also you know, an additional like wanting it too, that the label being liking all over his shoulder and things like that. He had kind of shifted, taste, and you know he was certain to get more influence violate the pixies here I admired black frances there songwriter for the pixies and his ability to kind of like a incorporate all these like really basic pop elements into this explosive punky, sound

it was a lot different than the grown sound, so he was gonna. Maybe I think it was just a marriage between the fact that we gain this major label attention and he was gravitate towards poppies, sound and- and it's a very slick record. I mean compared to anything else. They put out it's much closer, but I think that kind of intentional away to the eye member and intervene where he said that he actually wanted to start playing acoustic guitar, so it could strum away like johnny cash on there. plugged album? Obviously he got his chance to do that, but it goes to show that may be Never mind was a little bit to polish the little bit too overproduced for what he was kind of going into, but yeah, oh, and what album is heart shaped box on in ro the last one. Ok, because that's the album that he at least had set at that. was what he had hoped to achieve before. That was what he had envisioned to me of this.

As I have heard, that might be the best one overall, yeah I mean that album is insane. My god, it's much much more ah then never mind and intentionally so you can see that they swung the wheel bag around the other way. We address in time, there's so much passion and it's my favorite album. I mean I've. Some of that, the most probably the that nirvana starts to the time that their lives They going platinum is very short, Kurt is in his twenties correct, so that Are they recorded bleach in eighty eight came out and eighty nine and by you know, five years late, He's dead, having been arguably the biggest rock star of that era, so five years going from You know very little to that level of fate.

I mean I'm even a level headed person, you you'd imagine that would be dizzying. Yet what whether it be in if thou player he's gotten a million dollar contract, somebody who is just one the lottery or humble shy rock star A guy who's gone from. You know. living on couches to having more time millions of dollars this year is hard to imagine it very well When you look at his behavior, you gotta imagine this guy and a very A time at a very young age had the world by the balls, and he also was like a quiet. I mean he was shy away, but you he spoke is and you know he courted controversy in his way, two, so that had to add to the stress yeah, I won't say shy. I will suggest just stay quiet in humble that's not a an unheard of comment on his attitude. Shy is doubly thrown around a lot, so so

Each was the first album, never mind the second, but was bleach ahead at all, because apparently, was released. The critics didn't care for it much there they just thought it was another album that would be forgotten yeah. I think that- A couple singles on the album stood out and I think that the label, the time sub papas deadly singles, ap oriented, and they had gone, you moderate success with their single love buzz. The came out earlier in eighty eight, I guess, but that was a cover was not. It was cover bruised up we're a spin on a cover was in town all that faithful they have. We put them through co mark on it, so, but so that was a covers. A pretty big have precise part, but the arm itself didn't you know it wasn't an instant have they had a bigger, they had bigger artisan label at that time for sure sound garden, mud honey. There are both more popular at the time. I was a big man, hoodie fan

I'm wearing a mud, honey. Sure I now since bleach wasn't any indication of where they would end up. What is it? that causes them to explode and away they they do while they toured like relentlessly an event. and it was also a part of the community- these you know energy average ensuring and playing out alike, as they worked really hard something that you know the slacker image is accurate to a degree. yeah. I guess, but they were a hard working banned. There is no doubt about it and they practice alla time they wait all the time and you know just, although they were from a small town there quickly. You know playing an olympia washington which I am sure will mention later too in seattle, and then there are making in a lot of label made friends and in economy the community, as we know, was a very strong community that eventually got the attention of the entire planet, but

we are, there were done. They doubly benefited from their scene and allowed them to me. You know expand on their sound from there touring for awhile. There are also recording demos. A lot of stuff that ended up at an insecticide is more eclectic and, like I said, he's getting into the pixies, so he's putting the The fao and label attention came from a demo, they had recorded, I forget where, but it was some of them. Up. There would end up, I never mind, and that was really getting a lot of buzz. So you know they work, are they know a lot of people and they were you of all being and from, aids to never mind you know. Clearly they had refiners, sound, something a a little more on mainstream and so- like team spirit hits. cant. Think of very many other songs in the history of music that our the delineation, in our mean that is- a remarkable song for having completely like than before. And after of what-

the music sea, especially the roxanne, was like and as they I didn't say you know never mind knocked Michael jackson off the charts. I think it did more than that because it almost felt like a lot of the existing rock bands, not that they lost their fans, but they lost their footing like they just they all slipped out of out of sort of food mobility and away they all sort of doll. Yeah I mean it was. It was a huge. shift in just style sound over them, and if you look at the songs, if you know music all rocks what kind of the same I mean like theirs. billion, different songs. You can write, but The elements of their music wasn't all that different than the hair metal. Honestly, it was just about the attitude and the style but they kind of embodied. There was just such a radical shift that are made everything else. Look old and dumb basically gave us just like the others, the meteorite that killed off the die.

As far as it's almost like nirvana showed up and everybody else just got blown away. It's funny Your current say a lot about the dinosaurs dying out and wonder when reference to the music industry and to end to the planet and general. It's funny that he used at terminology allowed punk killed this. Oh and in the eighties happened, and then he kind of killed the eighties rock, with alternative right and it's a little more complex than that, but that's kind of what what history has decided on but yeah pretty much. I mean that fan, base justs, swells and demand for m swells, and that means lots of touring That also means lots of money for Kurt Cobain who It will get into it soon by it has come from very humble beginnings, and now has the ability to one a one point: three million dollar house in a very

nice neighborhood. So these are the kinds of chain geez. I guess she gets say that as Why you said earlier, even if, if we're talking about a person just an average joe, from having nothing to having basically anything and everything they want in just a couple of years, that's a huge shock and that's a huge adjustment as well, their popularity skyrocketed so fast that, like I dont like popular band, I don't listen to them and one of the bands I listen to that, the Jesus lizard actually did a split with with nirvana. Now is the first time I ever heard em yeah, but at the same time, by the time I got around listening nerve to nirvana, they had already top the charts. So I want to listen to him, because I consider them pop yes absolutely much more than I was like their borders to pay

come on. I wasn't a poster children arc, while their big black, all that's dahlia so here here they are in curtain. He had like it girlfriend and he breaks up with her in his prime what kind of not hanging out with a lot of his old crowd anymore, because it's either awkward or His handlers are now kind, pushing away those people. it's it's a whole new level. We don't have a grasp on what it's like to be all of a sudden thrust. In this kind of a lifestyle. Most people don't even know what it's like to stay out of five star hotel, a right and a limousine. It's you have to be conscious. Everything that comes out of your mouth. You have to know that the media and everyone is watching you and it's very stressful, and I heard that heave and suffer from major, like stomach pains from the stress.

Oh yeah, I mean there's a lot of different theories on where that pain came from and what it was, but yeah he made. No secret of the fact he was suffering from from stomach pain. I think I could have very well be caused by stress and has makings of like on a stress, really thing when you hear about his kind of history, whether it makes sense to that could be a trigger yeah. He had a girlfriend tracy mariner and they were together about three years, which for me understanding was his Only real serious relationship at that point absolutely I mean he, We never had them any girlfriend, so yeah edward tracy, olympia, which like a cooler. I I guess I've never been. Do you guys know anything about olympia, but I I imagine it's kind of I always heard it was kind of bohemian type colleges, town,

I know about it is when Courtney love sings about it on her album and kind of rips on it. while there is a saying there is a scene budding there, I think he was happy artistically there and you hear that he was like you know- maybe not pan so many bills. Maybe he was thinking crazy with the rat, but also, you know he was very prolific artistically at the time. I think it was however, a budding exe as for him as an artist beyond his own. In this relationship and very poorly musically and just artistically with his like paintings collages all that stuff, but it seems that there might be a couple of things there why he came from aberdeen washed in which is well not a place. You would talk about. Men do want to get away from that place. For I understand Aberdeen, the logging town, it's in washington they'd almost reminds me of twin peaks peaks little bit. When you see

that's what it sounds like yeah, but you know it's blue collar. It's it's its doubly rural ash within other in the industry there and stuff. But yeah. I mean grew up in a pretty isolated area, but it set up basically for the loggers that's what the towns uproar right with all the taverns right yeah, it's that's, that's their bread and butter and aberdeen and then I wonder also so he about the same time he he dumps his girlfriend p dumbson drummer, was his name Chad right yet jamming air and I'm wondering if I'm not exactly, sure. Maybe you have insight into chad's firing by it as well. tracy goes. I wonder if that's a reflection of he's leaving his past behind. I think when relationships like that,

expire, it's kind of almost always like that. You're leaving your past buying a bit and yeah. I think I dunno if they're connected. I know Chad, Chad was kind of a funky drummer. He kind of didn't hit the skin's very hard hit. The skins yolks he kind of did I had the drums very hard, and you know he had a weird kind of homemade or like modified drums, that he was just the kind of guy that was like a good friend of theirs, but as they are to grow, He wasn't suiting there need so yeah. I guess there is actually you know he was kind of our growing. his surroundings, so these changes may have well been very good choices. Kurt was making. Not be viewed in any other way. I'd giving way to china It was a good thing for them. If you look, Do you know how they ended up right, they I ended up hiring of Dave grohl. a prior year a year or so later, whose continue

be successful of this day. Bright, great drummer, now early beginnings, they record bleach, but he didn't really feel they were. I mean who does who figures? Oh we're, gonna hit the big time, I'm sure some, I that or believe it, but most probably down, and he tried the start up his own business because he's he's got a bag, grounded janitorial work, so he does attempt his business that doesn't work out again. Maybe it's because deep down, he needs to be a musician and all this Their stuff quite often people say you needed is give up everything and do your passion so for him once It focuses on focuses on the music. He does start to do really well once he leaves this dream of being hit becoming in order of it and toil service behind and yet you might not have thought that he would get. You know that canada,

ass one day, but he was he was not signed. Way from it. The way some characterizations of him would have you believe, because he was very driven, very hard, working, very focused and, like I think that was a you get. The impression was with Kirk, obeying that, try to get a job. He try to do things that were making him happy and he wasn't a guy who's, gonna really tolerate being unhappy, and so for him. You know he doesn't mind megan his girlfriend pay ran, which has caused the situation. I think there's gonna be a for a little while because he's fine, His passion and he's, like you know what it's either or a miserable yeah makes sense, because when Tracy spoke, as she pointed out that he had no money with their qualities about him that she, like I mean he wrote about a girl about her- is what is what understanding was I mean, I think the like a good relationship and she does still speak highly them. Last time I heard her interview yoda, so he meets courtney low

right, so they were gonna mixing in the scene together here and there and they met a couple times. But by ninety one. I guess was at ninety ninety or ninety one around there. They started dating probably just before they started to break, but she's just in character. I and she's always in kind of in the scene. In wasn't she said: Nancy, the old punctuality, and ass is she's, like the girl back see wires like whining was deeply into the sea into they met at a cancer and do you know she was well known, drought, the seattle and wash then seen for sure as being like You're, not necessarily infamous, but just being like that girl like those are? The shows and stuffs occur was aware of her. I she was aware of his kind of before they met, but they finally did and I shall couldn't get to you the time fast forward. Yes, it is

really matter up again at an l, seven council. I guess it was and is the another law wives were a kind of aligned. Let it happen and thrust his history will bring our heavy we get there else. Evans famous for their bricks, are heavy, as oh wow, that's. Ok, I know nothing about l, seven, seven bikini kill something. Now they were both awesome. I just did not get the reference year, so they finally could get to there. And then it was you know, classic whirlwind type relationship, and then he gets famous of their kind of swept up in it together from the start really. So what brings together are obviously they have an interest in music, theirs more to their story than that, because if you look at their backgrounds, both Kurtz parents and courtney, para divorced when they were young. I think it was fine, for her and about seven for her, and they ended up religious

being moved around or encourage case. He just stayed in abandoned homes or rod, people's couches or something with his grandparents, they didn't have stable wild hoods, which I think is what sets them up for. Being considered a little eccentric. I guesses minor way to put it yeah I mean colonel being kind of exaggerated some of his dinner childhood woes. Just to talk about the way the divorce kind of affected them in a similar way. I mean out No, she was devastated by it, but he you know he. I think it was like eight or nine, maybe seven, but I think it was like eight or nine that his parents divorced and then there's the whole thing, where there's description in any documentary you see basically talking to his family or interviews with people who knew him at that age were like there's before the divorce and after and before he was like this. one young well light hearted loved music extra.

Like it very we cared and as parents is parents got divorced. It was like a shift, and you know that can have a profound fact anna care and I think, tat he never quite got over there and, like you city, it was shovelled around a little bit level. Does grandma than back with his mom, and I think was the idea you one meet someone with a similar upbringing. No, it's easy to develop a kinship without an error. Obviously alike and a lot of other ways too. There are both grunge, This is so so they're married He actually has her sign a prenup, I'm assuming because his lawyers suggested it It was probably almost just like standard practice. At that time I mean my understanding. Is that, like a lot of celebrities, a print up as just there? And it's just a fact of life, in our so that it might have been just the thing that he didn't even necessarily have to like have allotted in plenary, but he's like. I trust you tell this to go. The way you know is pain

people to make these decisions. I think it was yet he was advised, but I dont think here anyway it's about it, the indicated any doubts about the relationship. I don't either so he had an courtney had a drug abuse problem. And now they have all the money they could ever imagine to me. It sounds like it. It escalated there, their drug abuse and it made their their relationship. Conor rocky kind of a high risk lifestyle, If you want to call it that- and if you talk to people I mean no one was saying that corey lovers, bring heroin all through the late late eighties or what you know. What I mean you don't really hear a lot of sort of are occurred, so you know, occurred a lot people that knew him up until the time he got famous had never seen. or heard of him doing heroin, but yeah, something when they got together at some point didn't you'll, hear him say it's a stomach pain or whatever, but whatever the cause, they definitely

but each other and fuelled their addiction, definitely the enabling kind of relationship they had. So yes, They get married, we said, but they have a key, very soon after they get married c mere. I guess ninety two and that's frances. in Cobain. How did you get that named. You know, I think the francis was following two world the bold I've heard it was black francis from the pixies. I think that's what kurds but then somebody else so that he said it was Frances farmer was also rough reverenced and Frances farmer, wherever evangeline seattle in euro. So. It's either one of those at the bean. I forget what I came from a hit song called beams. I think it was like some kind of fixing had violently would be the Frances farmer, you think, maybe it is because of the spelling. I thought seattle com

coffee being, but maybe I'm being wait, you obvious you're right, I don't the exact you know they had started using drugs, they had how unlimited access to money and theirs he'll fairly young. So this just drives there their drug using in their drug abuse through the two roof. I mean it, it's pretty bad. I think it kind of climax is when they are on their way. When they go to rome, that was the as though european tour, ninety, four so we're talking like they were some in utero big tour plan for europe it's gonna be like the their big push. And yeah. So rome is where he infamously. fell into a coma so backing that up. You know he had been on this. Pretty exhausting european tour. Corny wasn't within the whole time she had been preparing for her own tour and doing suffered hall

so he was alone for a lot of it and a lot of people say that he loved bad, very low on energy. At one point I had learned giant is that he was sick and they cancelled like a bunch of days, but He was sort of a mass, but on according the corny now not everyone believes or she has to say, but according to her he was caught crying, and that's some was supported by the fact that she did take a plain out. There are met him in rome at the Well, sir, I guess it was hotel five. A hotel. So they spend the evening together the nanny whose care you isn't it ex room, was francis bean, and what do they do all night by by the council, we have seems like they drink and do drink right now I don't know if there is any heroin found in his system. I know he d before that tour but when they, when he went in the coma, I I feel like I'm fairly

certain that their view was now We doing heroin, but he was doing rohypnol year is like as a sedative the psycho right. It's a date. Rape drug gets to the room We draw that you now you hear about the solemn puts near drinking. You can't hear you. I will tell you in all how control over here, your body and something bad, so he adds in also I read today in our who knows, but they said that there was. It was often used as a kind of substitute format. The donor heroin withdraw so he's having a rough time. Can't get heroin makes sense. He has us prescription one point: I guess he sent a bellboy out to get more will have now. So we can count on me, fairly. Certain there are both probably taking drugs that night he pretty much passes out, goes into a coma, so they courtney is now alerted that he's not being passive and she calls for help for an ambulance.

right the next morning he is now waking up. She's has not blood's coming out of his nose. Not good. Now not got so yesterday, a rush to the hospital to use in a coma offered twenty hours or something like that and it comes corny love basic it says there was a no on the scene, and this was a suicide attempt and at the time that was a pupil suspicious of its emotional here conspiracy. People say that there was no mention of a zoo. I remember I was thirteen. I remember mentions of a suicide attempts on tv at the time. So that's that stuff, where natural there is a suspicion, but it was pretty much. You know it's hard to tell. According to corny there was a suicide note. We know that he was reckless at the time. So it's not entirely unbelievable. Any time any pop star Star has an o d heard. It's considered is that A suicide attempts were. Was that an accidental overdose? I guess believed there was a note there. I tend to believe there wasn't. No, there are no way. I mean

We can get into that, but I don't think the note even really justifies or not me. Still question was this in an actual attempt or not without a note right, yeah sure. Well, it's for those that are sitting there frustrated because they're saying no, it was not a suicide attempt. They're going from an argument of from authority, which is the doktor stated that, he felt that this was not a suicide attempt but, as some might say that like your opinion, man will end there's a lot of people that came out and said this wasn't a suicide attempt. He, I think, even even courtney, love and the kind of nirvana entourage, told media. This wasn't a suicide attempt, but was then a pr movement a face. That's what my mind. I was thinking you have to manage. This he's news ease big money. You can't just let things go with the wind.

No I'm in the middle of a tour as well nigh they they have been doing for what thirty nine days prior to that right underlined that awhile here while I mean I personally think it was a suicide attempts and in the end, in the defence that came after reinforced out for me, I think that he was really miserable to time and allow built up and he was an exhaust. You know exhausted from the schedule who knows but I do kind of tender believed that it was a suicide attempts to get here. Touring in europe legacy. I believe it was almost forty days. That's a lot. I could totally see other that could break someone down. The other was a serious tour right. This is a god. like an internationally huge band, huge arena tour. Basically, there is a lot of money behind it. We may never know if it was really a suicide attack, but in all its its alleged that right before this happened,

He had called the lawyers to ask for court need to be removed from the will and Courtney came out to you know which which side of the story you want to hear. Do you want to hear that she came out to support him and help him, or do you want to hear that she came out to make sure she wasn't removed from the will and then tried to kill him? It's the those are the two schools are the argument at this point. I mean who do we? We have her entertainment lawyer, right, rosemary roseman, carol is that it reggie have rose Mary carol s. as we know it's her word, maybe he did ask to be removed from the well. Someone I'd say: why does someone that young have a well? You know has anybody seen the well? That's that's intriguing, if in our brave before that is that, in our view, So if you know the conspiracy kind of theories that come after its right before he dies, you tragic his way for moving the well? That's gonna fishy. If it was at an end,

other true crime mystery you now. That would be definitely so many look at. We keep question. whether this was a suicide attempt or one of the things that might listen to whether a suicide attempts or not, despite what the doctor says, is how many pills city did he ingest courtney says that he took sixty, but she is exaggerating sixty I thought she had said fifty we'll get fifty fifty or sixty. Now the doktor, the doktor said he absolutely did not take fifty pills, but at the same time the doktor doesn't really come out. and say how many, but we have a number. Don't we isn't it closer to twenty two, What I always heard that it was somewhere around twenty pills wanted those pills would knock any three of us out litter The date rape, drug. You put one of those calls in someone's drink and there it is somewhat incapacity

the for, if you know a very powerful any anything over ten. I think, You know what you're doing a yo yo you get some pain killers, never basic Ro canal or something at least- and you know at an end- like mild, stop that you can just get in it's not really control, necessary can be really our phone now imagine like a drug that men like us as it goes a serious sedative vineyards in you're. Just tossing a bag with with some champagne He used to shooting heroin he's used a harder stuff at this point and he has built up a tolerance, ied seed. He is a rock star in his partying likely rockstar, but at the same time drew king alcohol on top of more than five or ten pills. No, what did he forget? How many had taken It wouldn't be the first time somebody out there so that somebody forgotten

maples. They took an internationally overdose, but if it is in fact twenty eight, I dont believe for a second to that that some would take Domini pills and not and not being some kind of suicide attempts or just so utterly reckless. I might as well be a suicide. It's you now exactly that's my point. it I dont even really care if it was an attempt or not the dude almost killed himself. That just shows how reckless it is again. You'll have people, who suspect that she somehow got him too swallow these pills or me: how do they imagine that he would ingest more than one or two? You know him How did she would she get? These delivered into of system idea they she crossed up twenty. The pills and the the bottle. I dunno there's just no evidence for it. So if you're going to reverse engineer an explanation for how that will end at the end of the day when he woke up the next day as there being essentially poisoned

and was like. Oh, I took way too many and I'm in a calm and when you be a little suspicious and he stays with courtney, yeah. It's not like he's like calling his mother who each letter relationship where these still had family and friends, even though It was kind of like isolating himself in certain ways he had people, he could call them at like hey and I just almost died last night because someone to kill me now, it's not that it all. He he was very happy with Courtney. After that point I mean he he stood up for her. He would me what he would even threaten people that would speak bet poorly of courtney or any of his family members Oh yes, a history that for it's two women who are writing a book and I don't remember the details, but you can go on youtube and look up to Kurt Cobain threatening phone calls. It's all documented. It's all real. He called this arthur repeatedly threatening this woman. four pretend in writing in a bad things about corti love. In a book I tell ya

Oh really paranoid! He sounds heading four for people, especially who think that he was murdered and we'll get and all that obviously more dress that we're not trying to just stick outright. You know skirt around it right. But if you hear this woman victoria clark view The message is, he loves her answer machine it might make. You seem a little differently and I'm sorry. the guy was like my hero. So back when I was a kid, so I I mean I love Kurt Cobain and all the the music and stuff, but you hear these recordings that he loves in this woman's answer machine one after the other I mean he all right threatened to kill her. It's very deranged. Funding, and then you get an idea of how dark he why and could go right. One of the comments that he makes is that he knows you kid. spend a few thousand dollars and have our snuffed out, but try the legal way. First, he gases this episode. Brought to you by peacock bridge. did the original limited series a friend of the family based on

story of the Jan roper kidnappings from nickel sky executive producer of the act and candy, and after producer eliza hip and comes a dark, compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself the series stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on paper. fuck, I don't have a lot of time to sit down and read a book, I'm always on the go going from one festival or meet up to another. An audible offers me an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre, although I think I stick to mainly the thrillers in true crime section as an audible member, I can choose one title a month, including the best sellers and new releases, all audible members get access to a growing selection of audiobooks, audio, originals and podcasts that are included with your membership. You can listen, all you want and more gets added. Every month, Gillian flynn is going be putting out a new book soon All the news about sherry, Peppino,

You might want to go back and give gone girl or listen. Let audible help. Discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days, visit, audible, calm slash. Gaeta BP were text J, w p, two five hundred five hundred: that's audible, dot, com, slush judah, BP or text gdp, to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days or more time, audible, dot, com, slash gdp yeah, but to me really telling about. These calls isn't just that. It shows that Kurtz more complicated than some people would have you believe, but that these phone calls an end. I must go and tell you that we all know. Courtney is a very controversial figure she's, been in actual physical confrontations, with people attacking people dragging but by their hair. She she used to be carry out there and very confrontational bite. Kirk came to her rescue

and to me this tells you how much he loved courtney that, despite whenever, behavior. She was exhibiting if someone wanted to write about it. Highlight it. He had a problem with that. This was this was the love of his life summit We cannot skin earlier and I won't get into too much because everybody can read about it. But experience with our right with vanity fair. They wrote an article about corny love, any basically published that she admit, she had done heroin when, while pregnant with france, has been something that they all deny ever and behold basically occur. Corny denied it we deny them and they lost custody of their daughter temporarily. As a result. so he yeah they got her back and then that was a huge stress in his life that can't be understated, but you know four, I think almost in old few months? At least they lost custody of their daughter because of what someone published about because of the media right he's

to really go for the juggler, One of the other issues here is that people will tell you Courtney. is clean wench he got with her and then decided to start using drugs again, but to me being, in four five or six months. I don't know that that's very convincing to me, obviously, what they say once you're an attic you're always inadequate. Both of these Individual seem like they were going to go that route, no matter what she really fun. like he needed an intervention that he needed help with his heroin addiction, they do it. Mention and what I say just as not hand, that very well. He gets really really ticked off. That seems to be a wreck I think that I don't have a problem Why are you messing with me? Oh you're, absolutely right too, You mean his manager, their former manager, everybody even

Chris Nova, solid, bear based by over nirvana everyone close to him just about you here say he was in denial. He just didn't have a problem So yeah there was, there is more than one intervention and a lot of people were actually at the time leading up to like I a lot of people have really tried to. Intervene and engage him- and you know it was you detox before that tour and I was kind of rule appease the people, but everyone round. Him was very worried and fully aware of his of his issues, accept he wasn't really taking responsibility for in any way I mean I'd pay finally saw courtney is being a little overbearing and very dominating. How would that key I'm off to him when you know he might feel. like a little slighted by her in the day to day activities and all of a sudden she says you need to cut out this habit. He might be a little bit more rebellious or agitated by

sure, and you know why a reality is going to find a way like you're. Getting on my keys about this. What about you? You now and yeah, and I think, I think when it came down to it, she was less out of control with drugs than he was. I think that from I've always heard. I think that he did she did. They were dead was doubly happy to have to do a to do drugs with him and everything. But I think he was the one word more: will control. Yet I guess you could say that the way she came off, the people speaking very confrontational. and angry at times, very defensive that that's just servers lady. She really need the drugs to to behave that way that the drugs would have amplified it, but she had a gutter pie. You know squatter kind of past, that's that was her thing I still don't understand that. That's how gutter punks behave, it's that fuck you to the world. Done matter who you are right, any no. She

the sense of humor two she wasn't an entirely bleak person, I mean there's lots stories of them. Having funny little beside the point, but I say like yeah: she deadly had that especially to the media that over got her punk attitude, which is a good way to put it. But yeah I mean she was also. You know she knew what she was doing. She knew how to play up her image. She really pressure, skirt and says unity, a clean. you need a clean this up or she will not allow him to have access to his daughter anymore, so she tell so we need to go to rehab. I guess he gets scheduled to go to accidents. Is isn't that in l, a yeah right ally and its four people, just like him, who are the musicians or actors? What have you been all out of love He's had already gone. There musicians doesn't specialised, unlike rockstar, drugget actions, but the day that he

is to go out there earlier that day, he as a shocker does he not? Rights are what's up with his body, Dylan seattle. Right there in seattle, yeah and, and so he item by I'm gone, strangely enough dylan's that he has bought him loan him guns before. So I guess these guys are really in the guns: in seattle. I mean I don't know that Kerr ever hunted or when target shooting but he did have a fascination with guns and owned a few of them. He said they used to like to go out and shoot tin cans. Alright, that makes okay, it's called planking planking yeah plinking and cans, but he buys I'm a twenty gauge automatic shotgun which is a lower it's a lower gauge. Smaller did it's a smaller gauge Sixteen on its while those be larger gauge shotguns This would be more for bird the up. It would be a bird shy,

gun or people say you. Could you Is it to possibly defenders at your house right, which is interesting but yeah. I heard that birds thing too, and I wondered if that was kind of like. Exaggerate or like yeah. I I'm glad to hear from you guys cause that's kind of the first time I heard it was confirmed to be like kind of a lower gain, but yeah still pretty dead, when you put it in your mouth any gun his deadly right don't. You know I always hear people are going to twenty two. Now any gun can kill you and any gun his deadly silica, muskets man here His friend Dylan gets him this gun in his friend, Dylan swears up and down that kurtz, happy kurtz, cleaned up and he's not suicidal and he doesn't have any stomach pain, and this was a real smart decision to buy him this weapon, because the car The story he gave was that the day he was worried about intruders was for self defence and look at it.

has had his addiction problems. If you ever like, you know, read an interview with him here headed net necessarily, but so you might not have been in the sound state of mind but yeah. He makes it sound like, even though the guy I was leaving an old couple he's from than to go rehab. It wasn't. It wasn't too unusual. I look at that ensure if a friend a close for an hour, sue for a favor year. Your problem oblige, but and also there, good reason, because he had had his guns taken away for the- second time, so in time in a year. I think his gun were taken away by the police because of domestic issue on which corny the one time they called the cops because he threatened to kill himself and later said he was never really gonna do it. and then later he locked himself in a bathroom with three guns wouldn't come out in corti, frightened call the cops, so he has a hit three of not having the best luck with cops and guns, and he felt that

He might get his guns taken away if he did try to purchase it. So there was a. There was a kind of a plausible reason why he would have him purchase the gun for him. I thought we might have done that. That's that's really funny, though, because watch this weird documentary called soaked in bleach where they said he had absolutely no history of suicide. Yet you know and and and we're gonna get into the murder mystery and there's plenty intriguing there, but when they say things like that, you know I'm sorry. It's like he was diagnosed deprived at an early age. A lot People knew that he had issues say that he was never known to be suicidal is just it's, not true. Your people, norma different, Hence it is life and sometimes is optimum. These down, I know errand, and I talked about you know- did scared. Canada acts like he's bipolar, sometimes now might have been something that we don't know that he was diagnosed with or not it. If you do suffer, mental illness, drug use, especially

heroin and other things they magnify yeah magnify the the screwed up behaviour, sure, even a totally sane person who doesn't have mental illness gonna see them behave and really odd ways when their addicted to some form of opiate or drug, You ever have a hangover a couple of days in a row. You start even when the next you say so. You have a hangover two days in a row and the next day you don't drink Sometimes you get really depressed feeling now imagine being like basically is sedated with an opiate all the time and I'm at and imagine the kind of withdraws the withdrew you get from her and then how what what kind of care- that place with your mind when you're, not somebody with men, Well now or depression. It gives you mental illness. be a temporary, but it gives it to you. Could imagine how low that could get in your desperation. some of those moments, but it

courtney who's, calling the police and then and it seems like. Oh there wasn't really a problem here I mean Kirk, can't just come out and how everybody, if he has a problem right, After all, we have a kid too. I mean just like celebrity. Where are we going to get the the real story and- and things like that- probably not in our you can only go buy what you, whether people where there sad enough corny said that locked themselves in the room and you never heard kurt dispute it in a public forum. You know you never end and the cops came and confiscated his gun. So do the math. What do you think happened there? It sounds like he locked the other room with his guns. And what does that mean? You now in cops very rarely confiscate guns, so this says that they took it serious serious enough to take his guns. Think about what that means. To people the act of authority taking guns away as it is doing,

someone a lot of people would not stand for in your right, so he gets the gun goes to rehab how long You stay therefore, at the rehab facility couple days. He doesn't even make it two days. It's I say hours when I posted about this on facebook, because it seems as though is there a long enough? He s ex with someone who has since said that kurt acted like here anyone discuss his addiction because he acted like you didn't have a problem, and it is now they're very long before he just leaves He leaves on April second and then he's back. Within what is it? No thirty six hours is it. I thought he left on. The first came back on April. Second, ok yeah about two days, and then

before he had left. He had had his driver, take his shock and shells back to the house because he had actually brought them Then I heard also that he had his driver drive him to pick up to buy more shocking shells. Rhyme It's giving the excuse that he thought there was a prowler which is interesting because what he doesn't and buying anymore from what I understand right, because the receipt that was found with the shells had dylan's name on it. so the shells found that the shell that he used came from the box that right when I purchased with the shock on that day, the initial purchase, the initial urges with He comes back to seattle. He's kicking around a different but few differently they re eat, said with a friend at their summer home the there's a lot a weird canada's sightings of ham around in seattle. Azra came back, lackey, flew back.

On the plane with duff, frahm, guns and roses right right and there's a dove talks about how they retired but addiction how tough it was after they were. Started using drugs, because on the plane they were drinking it will when he gets back yet hangs with colleagues in his girlfriend? I guess for a night right c mere so he's seen around he's kind of almost like just pop around town like some? in part apart a jason to as his property by he look like shit like he had like a winner jack, but it was a brawl and was like shaking or just at what looks. Really not good a few people such as biting is I'm a little bit and meanwhile corti love fines What about the shot gun from dillon She goes into like emerge.

C mon right files and missing persons report, but she files it under Kurtz mother's name. Which is interesting. As I was just reading. Some articles, just to just before we went on from the day or the day after in rolling stone, reported that wendy had filed with her is mom wendy had filed misinterpreted, reports that hadn't even come out for a couple days, which I thought was kind of interesting. They report like that, but yeah she had failed. being is mom because I guess why would why would a wife not be enough to file? And I don't know I think it was. It was just more kind of distancing herself from the media, it's just sort of a see why a kind of maneuver sure does make sense I believe that in every buys the plane ticket than she starts cancelling is hard so that he can't buy anything more the guy. Had millions use has access to money beyond the cards. I think she she's is

doing what she can do, and you know that there is a cup charges are attempts to tackle like a few grand one day and then like one hundred and forty bucks, that they talk about it and soaked in bleach but yeah. So there's a couple of times he tried to use the but it was denied and because it was cancelled, they had minimal data that in kind of collect the same kind of data you would be, ugly. He seems kind of aim. Was it's it's it's interesting to hear the reconstruction, because there's some time is missing time between the time breaks out a rehab, and you know the few days later until it kills himself, but he should be because she had given him that ultimatum, that he would lose out This to his daughter. He went to rehab to avoid that and he did stay and we have very long enough he's out, but he knows what's coming I mean that's if he takes at her word still not billy socializing anybody's isolated.

The sense in I think we're gonna start showing our hand, or at least I all pretty soon, but you get the sense, a conspiracy theories, I think it was a murder, don't understand just how much the walls were closing in on him and this is a guy who's, already gal emotional problems and you're right he's stuck here and of how many times have we heard about people doing irrational things when their backs against the wall. All right he's got this mansion, but he's spending a lot of time over at a motel at the Marco polo shooting up bright river, it's a great near one of his is one of the high of just repeat that he was wont to frequent the stay where you get drugs, he was definitely Benjy or so this, of course, wouldn't fly I really well with with Courtney who demanded that he clean up, everyone is demanded, the clean up at this point that point crystal, I saw, then new guitar player pad smear, had given the odds

and there were leaving the group if he didn't get clean. he'd heard it from everybody the animal line for him and he just blew it big time he couldn't stay. A week in rehab. You know a couple of days or whatever it was and psychologically you're going to. You know these these guys who like kill their whole families because they embezzled some money. You lose perspective when back, backed into a corner light that things or to get really. Here you is, of one too many times you got the ultimatums, he must have felt pretty alone at that point. Also there are diaries in the dire hurry. He writes about how he wishes. He could give up heroin. So hee hee obviously as admitting it that he knows he has problem but for some reason he doesn't to share that with others, because he's introverted and he just wants to keep himself I think admitting it would mean here.

to do something about that, and we know I mean look watch if you episodes of energy, and then you gotta hit rock bottom. Maybe that wasn't his bottom, yet you know what I'm saying that's a phrase: they use a lot. Maybe that wasn't their bottom yet and if you we listened to him with his stomach pains all that he needed a he depended. I was a crutch. He wasn't. ready to give it up. He wasn't ready to admit it to others, because once you Eddie now, you're, that's one of floodgates open up in uganda. next thing, you know your wisdom to ninety days rehab? I mean he wasn't prepared to make that sacrifice. He was was using heroin medicinally. He felt that that was his his saving, grace and- and I know when you start to go, withdrawn. You feel that pain. Again, you want to go back to it. I know did say that the the doctors gave him a new stomach medicine that made it all better, but that was earlier when he didn't have the same stress

now he's getting interventions him and his wife might be having trouble. You know that has been made want to leave. I don't care what stomach medicine you're on you, you're under stress, Also. There are some people who believe that comment was tongue in cheek and referred to heroin because he is in some in you said he did heroin, because it was the only medicine he ever found and after that He said that in early dinner views were he was talking about heroin caught in the past tense, but he was a yeah. It was the only thing they could stop. The stomach pains, and I believe that that was so. They do that. Look here. We The party like a rock star, but he's not the guy, gets on the table and or head bangs, and you know what I mean might be like you know the rockstar on stage, but he's definitely not needs to be the life of the party. It's it's definitely an escape, and in this case baby, go pain, mental pain. It was all wrapped up in his addiction. He couldn't put it down at that why he did not have the tools to cope with that any was

gal use use king of his world. I mean why would you stop you're the money maker you're. The genius the guy wasn't, I don't think he was like a narcissist at all, but there has to what are your had a little bit? But why should they tell me what to do obviously I'm doing something right he's the face of nirvana right he's the face in the lead of the most popular banned on the planet. Point mean everybody knows the story. They they find his his body a few days later, but there's there are some things that led up. this? Are you ready to go into courtney actions before his death go for a man? Let us, through this, so Courtney she calls what's his name tom grant. Yet Tom grat allay private eye, yeah he he was a previous police officer in oh he the sheriff for eight years, sheriffs, deputy sheriffs, deputy, sorry and he comes

and he visits her. If you did gets harm, he looks like a very straight arrow, clean cut kind of guy. You does it in from his soaked in bleach document rhinos, not his, but it's really about him. In his its visit, yeah yeah he's a little put off by courtney right off the bat and I I is absolutely because I don't think he's ever come across upon Crocker he's. Never I don't think he's ever been both to somebody like courtney- that's great boy, where does she fallen out spectrum yeah so right off the bat? She opens up the door one of the first things out of her mouth is: if you liked it to the I'm going to sue you and again. This puts him off because he thinks he's Harry reputable person is full of integrity and respect me. I'm

thirty- and this is your hello right off the bat. This whole relationship between him and Courtney is after the wrong foot. and court, probably using drugs in front of him. most every single interaction there having cause that's her lifestyle, so he's judging her every a she hires them to find Kurt cause, she's worried she's, I dont know where he is. I think he might be cheating on me. He might be. You know whatever it is she says it has been missing for since, like a like four days earlier, something she gives him. This timeframe right is in between the break out. We want to help the wall, the rehab and when he was found its on happening simultaneously yeah tom kind of paris up with Dylan deep drug using friend that bought kurt a gun freight great great guy right

you might have been a little troubled, seem like a nice guy but yet of land troubles and they said going around in talking to people in and really they're kind of, getting fed things from Courtney and arms very vocal about how he records everything right and he does see as little cassette tape he's got all these cassette tape said he has in a little locker. He finds out like about the crew, a card that was cancelled and he finds out when the last time Kurt was seen, but he is not really getting anywhere through. investigation after while he's not even really interacting with Courtney, he's interacting with Dylan and Dylan's the one. That's calling Courtney and getting the information from her cause. She, It seemed to want to talk to tom directly. He thinks that current,

is being misleading and I guess distant or trying to maybe she just doesn't want every phone call, in every conversation she has with him recorded trusting that you say that too because here that light before he really had a chance to formulate much of a theory of murderer, he did add quite suspicious to her on his own recordings. I thought that was very telling this time that I went through the evidence, because I've been I've been going through this evidence for since, since this theory came out, but this summer You know what he's super confrontational other and I think we set about him not knowing how to handle or did lead canada clash of personalities, but I feel that he doubly treated her suspicion

actually before he really had a chance to even have a reason to. I that's what I kind of picked up on this time, other than she's just kind of a wild or wild child, as my parents would say, yeah I mean their their personalities are going to clash one. Whether or not she feels good with him or two she just doesn't. one all those conversations recorded. I can kind of sea that, because they have already had their children taken away from them Big thing resemble interview, yeah, so she's, trying to be a little a little secretive and a little, and you know and kind of see why a on her end? So I I get this this kind of behavior, but at the same time, she's drugs, so she's acting crazy she's paranoid will common. They were both paranoid alot. So I I I think that she did

She didn't do herself any favours during this investigation. As far as how she interacted with with the p- I, I don't think she she did her A job is far out. I would agree with that too, but they go to the house and search it, and they don't find anything before time they go there right and then they go back cause Courtney says, the shot guns in a secret compartment in the closet or something, and you need to go back in and find it and get it and they go back to the house. and they don't find the gun in the secret compartment. They do find a bottle of whatever it's called in the back. and they find a note left there. From the male nanny guy talley kelly. Leaves this note for kurt saying I can't believe you're in the house- and I envy you know- and I didn't know, and it's kind of an abrasive. No

and according to tom, the snow is set up. No and it wasn't genuine right. Well, I don't think. tom understands pot head grunge rocker speak because I felt the note Is it an emotional note from very shallow person that all they do is smoke pot and listen to grunge rock sure. It's like it's like how dare you type of thing, yeah blown out of proportion. and no sign of kerr again at this point, you know: Courtney, has sent him up to seattle and says she's not going because she has business down. South tom takes this as she's being deflect. If an sending him off on wild goose chase is well she's monopoly? waiting or doing whatever she's doing she's telling em is giving information, go look for the gun and it's gonna be here right What would her motivation be here I mean if she wants them to fine Kurtz body.

When she say the shot guns hidden in the greenhouse or above the garage. Let's go, why? Why wouldn't she does allow that There is rather like eventually He called an electrician to install a security system because I hadn't found him yet, but she could have easily led them there right, yeah, totally yeah, because at this point they go, they don't find the gun, they don't find kurt, they don't find much and they leave and it's not till the next day, that Kurtz found yards by the Gary smith, electrician, and he only sees person on the floor through the door, because there's lot glass on the door so able to the end of the greenhouse there that's Agus seconds. Story, greenhouse almost like a guest room or something above like a garage rights. My did.

I didn't know about a time didn't know about it. So while they were, there Sixth, seventh, I can remember the exact date they could have found the body they weren't. Why I think, once on the six than once on, the seventh didn't accord The coroner he probably died in the fifth doesn't talk say that he thinks that it's possible that dylan misled him. Pray and to what end I don't know, that's something people bring up like why? Wouldn't he know about that? Oh later, in an interview he said he did. You know these aren't the most reliable people and it said that courtney I called and talked dylan and said check the greenhouse, and then they didn't which, unlike will wait a second. Why would she tell him to go check greenhouse or why? Wouldn't he checked the greenhouse? How does that support the conspiracy now there's a logical, pattern is broken by that either He was leading than there are not either. He was

awaiting it or not. The way this state they find Kurtz body is he's laying kind propped up against the wall, he has his heroin and a little box and other items surrounding him and he has a shot gun that he's holding with his left hand, that's kind of lang. Honest asked the shock and shells actually off to the I guess left side but d. gun is laying upside down, so the orientation of the shock on you would expect the expense shell to be off to the right and it is not

Tom says that if he actually had placed the shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger the the show would have been on the right side. If the. If the shotgun was upright, when he pulled the trigger, then how did it spin around or if it was upside down the shotgun shell would have had to have bounced off something and bounce back across the room, but the the thing about this theory on the shotgun is it's top heavy after he pulled the trigger his other hand, as other you know, his trigger finger slipped off the trigger. Thus, the only thing left is hit his hand. On the barrel, so the gun would flip over because its top heavy mean if you took a good are kind of leaned it. You know vertically all you were doing was holding onto the neck and then you let go like that. Guitar would write itself, they would mean owed, go horizontal. same idea in

you got any rifle shock and would probably do this, but especially this one, because it had sort of a top to it. Something else Tom says is that he had taken three times, the lethal dose for a human. He also makes the claim that and what what is it called dia? What the death grip? What is its its essentially wishing carpet death grip, but it's the cadets. first spasm he would have had a cat. Ever spasm at the point of death, which means he would have gripped onto the shock and thus preventing it from flipping over ok right now. How quickly does this cadaver spasm key? again, is it instantaneous? Do we know that Kurt died instantaneously, or did he lived for a few seconds? You know there's the

It got decapitated by the guillotine. Back in like the fourteenth century- and he said count how many times I I blink my eyes and he blinked I'm like sixteen times after decapitating so did Kurt die in containing, or did he lived for a few seconds, which is all that? Would you would need for this gun to spend around in your hand, right right, yeah and going back to the amount of heroin he took would This heroin not have any effect on the, spasm on his grip? I love that you brought it up First of all, the heroin thing bugs the shit out of me part my language, because every me go on a youtube video, the first thing everyone says is like open your eyes, sheep all three times liza does that's simply not true. This is this information. It is out of heroin had been doing heroin for a long time. We're talking to five hundred dollar a day. Have now you look at the typical

Well, you know idea of a of a junkie on the street. How much do you think those guys are are actually injecting a day they can afford five hundred dollar day habits, maybe twenty maybe forty and their junkies I'd that's enough to get hi all day, we're talking about a guy who could sit there and pound away. Ten of those bags. You know like like. It was nothing and violent and hours a day is is, is not it that's all of heroin. It's it's an that none of us can comprehend not that does a seasoned veteran of heroin at that point and as we art about. Do you know that stays in your system stays in your system and when you do, the blood work doesn't mean that and just at all, that's that heroin that day yet did did he shoot all of that heroin in one shot and then shoot shoot himself had he been shooting it for two days straight and then

maybe took a larger amount and then shot himself, and we're done a relapse to you know. You know what happens when people relapse, they go now for that? It's a reunion between lovers, you're swept up and like a tornado, so that bugs me in any? No. I was watching the old unsolved mysteries and you know cyril whacked. You know that your other argue. The friends pathologist, I guess, is what he is famous guy right at the hi, I'm on unsolved, mysteries, which arid like around the same time? He was they're, saying yeah a lotta airline wouldn't be easy, but it's entirely possible. Unlike you, does it so we have a lot of experience within. He did find it odd, which is why we will bring it up by he's sunday There is no reason to say it couldn't have been a suicide at least one prominent voice on national tv around the time of them of the suicide. Almost said. Murder was was putting that

opinion for it. So why be bold? Still, twenty later can say that was three times lethal. Does one dissenting a penny were voiced long ago how they circumvented, as they say we ve, never seen in our entire careers somebody to this much heroin and then turn around and shoot themselves in its because most when users aren't multi million dollar superstars right most of them, don't need this should themselves I'll. Just die. and maybe they don't even have a gun because they sold out for more heroin. Think about addiction. It's probably not that common further if a heroin user to end up dying of a shotgun blast. Honestly, it's probably statistically kind of rare- I I hate to admit It- but I have a lot of friends and family tat are abusers heavy users in recovery, one of them her doktor? It actually prescribed her

ten, ten milligrams of like oxy code, one a day yeah and she was able to function just fine on that. You wouldn't oh, if either one of us would take a five milligram oxy code on ox cotton. We be honour, ass, oh yeah, we'd be on the couch, we'd be melting, they will doubt they were taking ten day. Look. I went to college once yeah you're your you can build up a tolerance that crazy. You know, people say, will you take it orally and in its slow. You know solely releases into your system, whereas he shot This is injected, but again we dont oh if he shot all of that up in one sitting or if he did it over there worse of ours. The thing is that that's your strong, spit of evidence, and it always seems to be exact number one thing that you see everybody talk about sorry than your argument is flawed there, because that can be disprove. End

just not enough. It's not that smoking gun thing that did it's made out to be at all. I've seen p on heroin? Not all of them do the nod that nod. Were they not often go to sleep, some of them up and work walk around and totally functional, I'm happy times. You think Cobain had to play a show, I heroin exactly how much energy You did you throw out there and off like a lie. If that's the strongest points, I I can't believe that he was murdered because in absolute we look like a suicide now did the patrol officer who walked in on the scene and say this looks like a suicide and didn't it investigated as such. Was that premature? Possibly I heard that they to it as a homicide and not a suicide in the beginning that you know the other detectives in and the chief

police. Whatever said now, they they looked at it as a homicide now did day investigated as thoroughly as everyone wanted them to know. Do they ever know right. This is the three of us bought light to shine on it and and and look in the thing is they just like you said even on that unsolved mysteries episode, they were like they had their their media relations guy there, like every suicide, is initially treated like a homicide because they really don't want to miss that it seemed sincere. I'm sorry like the shock and shall I view the explanations that you gave were probably good enough for the cap. Like you said there was somewhat it might have been a rush and the other thing that you know compared to how quickly they release the cause of doubt the suicide compared to other cases as being premature, but ass. A thing about this mystery whatever you want to call the fascination is that of

All the Elvis is dead or Elvis is still alive, like Jim morrison's living on an island. This is actually the one where it kind of gets you at first, and you can see why people believe this of all the rock and roll legends. It's got them. Was genuine intrigue. Oh, he didn't you mentioned Elvis. Has anyone looked up? How many prescription drugs Elvis was on before he died? Yeah? Oh, my god tell me about overdosing yeah or how many drugs rush limbaugh was used was using a point just saying that you build up a tolerance and you still function. Why looked into studies that we're done on heroin addiction, its tricky because there is a difference between someone who you shoots up once and someone who shoots up multiple times, and so there's just not enough information from when I was able to find and on some

like her who was shooting at multiple times again, it's access to money and its these self medication. So is really difficult for for most people to do what he was doing. Gotta just dismiss it because, like you said, there's just not enough information and certainly not enough information that points to foul play well and then there's no fingerprints found on anything so it was wiped down. But we know that you don't leave usable prints, every me touch something they smear. They smudge, it's really lucky when they can actually get a usable print from a scene annesley, it's like it is a pretty steady grip. You have to apply, and the thing is we don't know if it was way clean. What we know is that there was no prince found the mean usable prince. As other big thing, the gun was wiped clean. Like really was, it no usable prince, but we see him grasping the barrel date they couldn't used,

from the barrel. What ok, yeah yeah lots and lots of things that contradict you gamble I think, when you guys are the nine eleven absurdum at a point where it was like the conspiracies all contracts. Each other ants almost like there is no uniformity too, but when you look these things like inconsistent. He's in the logic, add up billig just go into how would corner I have known where he was going to be. No one knew where kurt was going and he had all the all the money in the world to get there if she was really plodding his murder, as some people say. How did she know he was going to be at the house tat day he was sitting hotel. Some of the time he was pretty much going with the breeze. What and did she have in place? Did she have like us, grit salah assassins at all these different locations. Like what plan did you have in a place where we're being jumping over offence on his own accord, played into it that beautifully like some

can tell me that maybe I'll give us another look, but logically, that's just there's a lot of things like that. That don't make sense well and there's a lot of things that Courtney did or you know didn't do that do seem suspicious. You know when you watch soaked in bleach and a lot of the other documentaries view take all these peace As you know, when you put em all in and a crackpot, you can make a stew with it in in get a murder conspiracy. but when you take all the ingredients out one by one, it just doesn't quite add up, like you say, but some of the things that Courtney dear where she she planted a story in the media about a fake o d on her part file, the missing persons report under Kurtz mother's name. She said that could have been missing from a certain time frame when he actually hadn't been missing since that time frame he had been seen. So Tom took that as

she. You know all these things Tom took as she's a liar she's been lying to me and misleading me, which is kind of true. She was, but what's her motivation is it because she's trying to mislead tom into thinking that I don't know I mean, is it just she's to see why a herself and keep the media out of things? There's there's a lot of explanations. can cheating, maybe she was trying to be discreet. About why she wanted him, for you know why they could have been a lot of things. I haven't seen him for this long. I want you to find out where he's been for the last few days. Oh you found out. He was with another woman. Ok, and honestly, like he's an employee of her, she can mislead him all she laughed and such like. paying him. She I did a radically she was erratic, but the thing is that what bugs me is this Oh go syndrome went strong towns and woman- and I'm saying it cordial

the talents and woman I owned whole albums. I didn't own and nerve on our lives, I lived through. This was also their first. Album was awesome. I didn't really catch much after that, but, like she had one of the best female rock voices of all time yeah, I don't I have it. I think that, and I'm not sure you know what I as sorry so that the yoga syndrome or yeah. She was just as kind of zany as he was, but because she's, the precious raw, stars. Creed the wife, everything as is the radicals, q or tortured everything she does that that's erratic is evil and calculated yeah I've just sick of it yo go on now still is like as a symbol of light. The ski woman interfering with our beloved rock star, and it was bullshit that is now to cargo bay. Was drawn to her for a reasoned. How can you love, kirk obey?

and think that she is evil you don't know him those closest to him. not suspect her of murder, to me, there's a massage any that needs to be addressed now, one of the best piece of evidence, that invest say shows that Kurt Cobain did commit suicide is that he has what someone describe as an operation or an injury to his left thumb, and that's because if he pulled the tree. and set up the shock on that it you're too some right and those who say that This was a murder. They claim that well, he could have gotten that, just by having his hand put on the shock on by it, they keep telling you that he was really really dragged up on heroin and there's no way he could have shot himself. Well. How is he going to keep his hand on the shock on? I just don't see that's possible

think if, if he's that bad off then his hand fall the side and he won't be to keep his hand on a shot gun. So for me, this dumb injury really does pour it the case that he committed suicide. I just don't see any other way that it works as Only given the location on his hand, if you see the image, I don't see how he gets that injury just by having his hand placed on the gun. This is someone who pulled the trigger yeah, one more thing that Courtney did, that is very questionable, and I just we have to bring it up. Is the the the piece of paper that looks like a practice sheet that she was riding on that was found in her backpack ended, appear Is that she's writing letters to kind of make it look like she's writing, like Kurt

so when we haven't even got into the suicide note, yet it's kind of a big deal right. Kurt suicide note is the first half or that the first ninety son of it his him writing a letter that this kind of- dress to his childhood, imaginary friend write his name's bought a b o d d, a each it's a little whimsical, but at the same time he's he's gonna going through a stream of thought where it sounds like you. Kind of retiring or getting away from the music seen right. It's done overtly good bye world and then at the bottom. There is, for lines that are very much keep going for france and by love you, I love, you comes out be more like wow that it appears to be a suicide note, but The writing at the bottom is totally different from the writing at the top. Some

that it was written at different times, which is very much possible, Maybe the top was written when he was sober and the bottom was written after he took a hit in a we don't know. I've heard that it when written on the linoleum of the floor he was found that maybe he wrote the first part and then finished at their because I mean who knows so. They find this practice sheet in courtney's bag and it looks damning. It really really looks damning cause it. It does look like kurtz handwriting, I think it nina when they match up right. There's a video online where you see them one by one match up the final lines with the handwriting samples from this suppose it practice she'd that was found by cordial

lawyer in her bag? Why she was going through corny loves bag? Who knows courtney left? It thereafter visiting the lawyer once and who look. I wouldn't go through the bag, but whatever anyway, it does look pretty compelling, but what they do as as they line it up at the same exact contour So, in other words, he's writing this scrawling thing that's kind of dipping and rising, and then, when they do the comparison there, digging her letters from this she and arranging them in the same dipping and rising motion and for all I know, re sizing them so basic they ve done a lot of the work for us before we even get to look at the individual letters and looks very damning, but I noticed some ray some. Some sees that look like backwards, threes in an corneas version, whereas Its handwriting was that it was very like it was around it at all. There is definitely discrepancies, but when you

fitted into the same contour. Has he rode at looks a lot more, a lot more like his handwriting that I think it. What if you just took it as it, as it is Tom. In one of his interactions with Courtney. She go it often says you know Kurt's, useless and, and he he couldn't even cash a check if he tried he doesn't. You know he. He doesn't know how to take care of stuff. Mio Tom took that as she's down no downplaying kurtz abilities and and saying suicidal. But to me I heard I do all the bills and I have to sign everything for him wherever we heard that before, like as president in his life further the woman in his life have an end of the bill? The bells maybe he's earning by he's the you know, he seven plenty interviews the business is lost. I mean it's, not the music business, I'm interested is just a music. He said that his own words so

thank you. You make a very old and compelling pollution. There are least at least a theory as to why she would be doing that may be she it's an explanation. That's all it's! It's just as feasible as she was practising it to murder, her husband. I think that you need to be except that route as a password spoliation as much as anything else. It is just how you view this, how you frame everything here, do you frame it as Courtney was was? Can firing to murder him or Courtney was actually a concerned wife and calling on people to help her to help find kurt calling on people to you know, prevent him from harming himself and she might have been terrified and acting a radically. You know saying things that were misconstrued because secretly she's turbines you now you prisoners used to join vulnerability. Will, for instance, Tom says, the missing persons report says Kerr

acting radically. He suicidal any has a shotgun in he describes this missing persons report as this is her setting up the explanation of him, committing suicide your friend or your girlfriend or wife, was suicidal and had a gun. How would you fill out that missing person report spoke The guy was openly even an inner you talked about suicide. Like I thought I was gonna kill myself, I mean Tom ground. As for shit, because there's an interview with mtv, I haven't the age ass, a kid You know when I was twelve or thirteen and he talks about how he had suicidal thoughts in it. So but yeah I exactly it's frame, framer and there's. I know that people are going to get. Analysts, know us and be like, but there's this the thing and there's thing, but what I would say to them is like we can address all that its insanely, convoluted and there's tons of of little clues. I want everyone.

things. There was a murder to thank without the heroin without the shot gun. I shall evidence quote unquote without the practice sheep, the practice she What do you have you? have motive. We revenues I was means we haven't really establish opportunity who even did it yeah exactly yes, they would fall under means right use. I mean they said Kelly did it, but what there's no evidence of that just now, I would believe Dylan. Did it over kali try not theirs. much evidence of another thing that Tom points out was that courtney allegedly hired or attempted to hire a man to murder kurt for fifty thousand dollars in his name? Is l douche well I'll? Do j yeah yeah he was

front? Man for the mentors, I dont think anybody would ever take this guy seriously it his band is: is horrible, its a very elementary redneck version of gigi alan but Gg Allen. Actually was shock disguise and he spoke on camera. there's an said that she had offered and fear thousand dollars and that she wanted him to kill kirk obeying make look like suicide shoot him with a shock on. I may just details that anybody would know about it. Sort of like you fitting the crime meaner coral quote. I would urge any to look at into the background, the sky, because I watched one of his videos. It's pretty horrible, I I know this will come up, but misogynistic is just barely touching upon with this guy's all about and easy seems like just a wild guy, who will say, whatever I'm sure,

We ve all run into these people that just they just talk shit all the time and this guy's eating it out because he's on camera and he is giving an interview, while he's excited, he's eating it up and he's constantly asking. If there's beer and things like that, well, l do CHE ends up getting killed by a train, in three days after this interview, so serious the arrow, and that that, of course, could be another conspiracy there that, oh, he came out and talked and he actually mentioned that he actually did know who who killing curve and not that. But he said that he wished. He accepted the money that he had done. It So this is a great human being right. I guess. If you truly believe this man, then you believed that there was a Spirits see put your money where your mouth is and write the dna and have them reopen the case, because if, if disk

really was a murder or if you choose truly believe that courtney attempted to hire this man. That's that's a pretty big crime trying to hire a hit man, kill somebody. If someone was approached and asked to kill someone for money, then they should go to the police exactly and he did not that's punishable, that's very punishable. They would ever look at that seriously at all. So while they can't one more kind, a little issue was the credit card, was used? The day after his death for, like I love, was six do somethin dollars this? This got me as a kid because make a confession right now. I believed in this back in the day, which was tough because I loved court love to, but I I was intrigued by I believe that in this this is the one that got me. Somebody like bought roses or something it was like one

I would someone have the card. Why would they do that? You pay. You heard the explanation re with share it yeah it's pretty mundane like certain Other things that, like google search, is that you can be sure one sunday was uploaded to the internet because they refreshing. I therefore rates when the car is cancelled. We already learned that there's much less data, of all about the attempts of the transaction and they uploaded at their leisure in theirs batch processing, exactly so when they upload it is when the time stamp com. that's not necessarily when it happened. They get more accurate data. The card was active because they could know exactly when the transaction having so could have easily been a day before two days before he died. It's not evidence because, there's another explanation, a simple: Kurt also had a no. I think it was in his wallet, but it was a piece of paper from the phoenix heights

considered an urban resort according to the sheet of paper, but on this paper is written by Kurt. I believe. Do you kirk Cobain take. Courtney Michel love to be your lawful, shredded wife, even when she's a bitch with it's an siphoning, all your money for it. In horrifying? Will you promise the fucker at least once a week? Ok, that wasn't this released with business. I was released by the seattle pda right. Well, I think it's funny because this is one of those things. Were people point and say he totally problem with her and- and I think it's per cent- because while first read this, this is how Larry s it should his sense of humor if they had a completely different lifestyle. Where

weren't doing drugs and they went to church every sunday, and you know she was a school teacher. I would wonder what the heck this was that these are rock stars: They probably revelled in this kind of this kind of like you know it buddy allow room ago, hey numb knots, they just start Yellin south asia, and it's funny. I can imagine this way. They interacted and honestly, the fact cap that momentum says Then too it was in his wallet. Ok, clearly it's a joke. People use this as like holy shit. Doesn't providence yeah. He had an issue with her, but it's clearly a joke, and you know When I hear that it reminds me there, there are people with sense of humour and that they took the rumours in stride sometimes, and they could make inside joke out of it. it wasn't all unhappy times and that's how they are portrayed now to feed this. kind of explanation of the events that there was just this miserable thing. You read that in the vote

in his wallet couple years right, yeah I'd. This is something you and I talked about as well about perception, and about how relationships have there ups and downs and so of course early. rumours that there is a divorce or a change in the will. You know pending by it really when it comes down to it is, if you, get a small window into relationship in all you heard was they were fighting, and he said this her and she did this year, getting the whole picture there are a lot of. People making judgment calls on their relationship, who aren't qualified to do so like when I was there. A relationship is more complicated than that and will be. me out and where I see the massaging comes in. It's like all kurt wanted a divorce so corny kill them. Maybe if you made that called to his lawyer. Maybe it's because he wants to show you know a little bit of his power. He's against the wall, corridor, tone

he's got get up drugs. Maybe he play Does that call as a desperate tactic to to get to her pushed back that's hard. He plays yeah. That's all it's the only power he really has. So why so? Because he's not going to attack her, these prove You can be selfish. So why do we jump this woman killed her? has been another. This guy might have been just doing to dick move there reserves, we, like others, what I use a real person, that's what I hear about the demonization. Of course he, like sure she's troubled, but we give some. The guy rock stars so much leeway. And tat her behaviour leg painter in this evil, then dick a lie and- and I think once you stop seeing her like that too you're gonna find that you may not by and all the other evidence I did read and

call about how this is very misogynistic. This angle, that kurt was murdered by courtney good I like to read that desire that that's been meyer, my impression of it for a long time now it makes great points we may, people fail to see how society for since, as far back as there's been a society has been massage They can it's just sort of accepted. It's an absolute standard right. These rock stars are angels and we have to protect them and how dare someone take this angel from us? We ve got ask them and we have to blame somebody. We ever say: oh well, they just they screwed up. Instead, it oh it's. This woman's fault, like you, said that with yoko oak I mean to this day. There are still people can't stand because she's, the one that ruined John Lennon, basically right yeah and it was basically just paul mccartney being a dick

Are we know it's exactly Nor can we be him, he's perfect, crying right and everybody who knows the beatles and really knows about. It knows that that steps be asked that she didn't break up the beatles but you'll. Never convince the public that it always be. Oh is the yoko of our group. I just can't stand that stapi, even as a joke. It's just by. I taste for it is gone. It's a good narrative until you actually start to think about what it says will act, about the situation, but about you or even if you dont, like yoko, it's the guy. She was worth that made. The decisions I I can't blame all of his problems on her and I wouldn't do it the other way there. I want to talk his diaries, real quick, because he left behind these no books become. goals. Diaries whatever, but their very eye, opening like there's lots of little prick reality quirks in there. Their are reed

that he drew notes, letters that he wrote to people. He has a letter and there too dave growl, which is really interesting because grow like I guess he lived far away and had to drive really far so it kind of impeded them from having regular practice sessions at times right and and also in their there is meant of suicide, but the one thing that really it out to me- there's a recur. the theme of that. Humans are awful and that he's ashamed to be a human. Essentially, so this hatred towards the human race and I'm sure we all made comments like this, but I also believe it's reflective of high feel about yourself. So the more often you start saying that stuff, probably the more unhappy you are as a whole, because maybe you don't feel like you ever deeming qualities. He is that kind of its. a good fear itself, clothing in security and,

it s an antisocial way, but you know We talk about the possibly could have been bipolar. There's other times were. All he talks about is empathy. Eeg swings both ways drastically and what is I? Don't you've you thought about this, but one of the other factors that might be involved in people wanting to believe he was murdered despite available and nation? Is that he's responsible for taking his life? and abandoning his child, and that might make a bad guy to some people and its easier for them to say no, no heat, and do all that he was unable to spend as much his daughter because his wife was controlling and then she murder him. So he couldn't spend his life at the child by it. he's the one that had remarked in the note in august. Some people dispute the note But in the note it says that he feels she would be better off without him.

suicide is often seen as a selfish act, because a what they say is its permanent solution to a temporary problem. Yeah. That's that's a real! It's a cue Saying by anyone who actually understands depression would never say that, because it's not temporary, it start. Primarily that in temporary, in that it comes and goes, and it's not selfish, is the exact President salvation, you know it's a tough love these be up. Oh, don't really have a grip on their own emotions, it's very easy for be like being, his daughter would schoolma but like at the end of the day. It's like do you have any idea what it's like to live in and limitless pain misery to the point where you really do believe it's for everyone's better interests like how is that selfish, like you think that its bid you'd rather be gone to save them their pain. What they get In it's another perception issue, because if you ever watch people who are reunited aspect

If you see a father and a daughter reunited and the father had left because he felt like it would be better if he was gone, and then the daughter gets to express exactly what kind of misery she's experience not having the father in her life right what he may feel again, they're coming from two to four places, because one has their own pain. The other has a pain, that's completely different, but is a pain. It was or out of the other person's decision that they thought was a correct one in again and if you ask the daughter now wasn't the correct one, it gives point where there's only one way, to solve it. You know you have to stop at any cost and- no amount of your picture your daughter, no amount of light guild trips are gonna talk, somebody out of that there is a place of desperation. Thank god. Most of us will never now, the right I really had yeah eyed. I don't want to know that feeling. So when it comes down to

this? How do you guys see curtain Courtney other? There were two people they had really magnificent. Artistic achievements in their lifetime dad I'm just got swept up in it. Then how do you react in other married glee and young fish data kid young ash and there were top of the world. I mean and neither of them. You know really well equipped for it. I think that they were good people at our and I did. They probably had a really good love for a while there and I think, circumstance, Annie now biology in his case with his mental illness played a bigger part in it, then really anything else. I actually sadly kind ahead, lower opinion of Courtney, going into this thinking, She was the the reason for kurtz drug use. I thought she might

then the enabler in the relationship. I just wasn't sure, but I just assume as I researched it, I did really have an opinion on whether he was murdered or committed suicide. But I didn't see all of her actions as suspicious. I saw most of her actions as a concerned, wife and a concerned, wife that might have had a drug problem herself and couldn't quite convey or communicate that very well because of her drug problem. I dont know if they were coming really happy, but I dont see her being a malicious person and and seeing how this all plays out. I take a lot of her suspicious actions as her trying to conceal her personal life from the media, as opposed to it being more militia

in turn, right, which is understandable, as we know from what they can't. I went through you. I look at their backs grounds and see issues there, that led them down probably a difficult path despite their success. I feel a lot of sympathy towards Courtney myself, because she did put her often some bad spots and she lost her daughter a number of times and how to get her back by it she did stick around she's managed to accomplish even more things, and I hope that she has a poor support system and her family. If you look at it, her own father wrote a book. Simply stating that she is responsible for kurtz death and he not a guy that put any real time into her,

nah, he doesn't even know her and he calls her a psychopath and he says a psychopath like. I am right and he starts making statements like. I know the next things that would come out of her mouth and I know exactly everything, she's thinking- and I thought this is one of the people they hold up as evidence that she's responsible for kurt's death the whole time he was talking. I felt like he was just a despicable human being and he's one of the reasons why she had a difficult life exactly and god bless you for and yet people are trying to say. Oh, oh, you have the truth. Oh, I can't wait to hear it. I don't care if he was involved with the grateful dead that doesn't make Anything to me that doesn't say damn thing, though I think that talks that speaks out that I see is that he was not involved. he doesn't know more about her life. Then a lot of people honestly well column we'd like to thank you.

Joining us for this episode and it's kind of cool that it your birthday week you justin share a birthday- oh yeah yeah, of course, adjusted, and I share a birthday. The seventeenth, so look if I couldn't have been at your meet up, I'm so glad to have been on the show again and it's my like favorite thing when the world is due to gas. The show, thank you guys. So much also tell your fans. to listen. No, my podcast cosmic cast off paranormal comedy check it out the

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