This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by peacock bridge ending the original limited series, a friend of the family, on the story of the Jan proper kidnappings from nick, and sky executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer, eliza hip and comes a dark compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself. This theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on p fuck, I don't have a lot of time to sit down and read a book, I'm always on the go going from one festival or meetup to another. An audible offers me an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre, although I think I stick to mainly the thrillers and true crime section as an audible member, I can choose one title a month, including the best sellers and new releases, all audible members get access to a growing selection of audiobooks, audio, originals and podcasts that are included with your membership. You can listen, all you want and more gets added every month Gillian.
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I always installing a light fixture in was trying to strip a wire, and I cut my finger pre badly and blood all over the house and the best to my effort, I tried to clean up all the blood no, it bothers my wife to see I scan the house. I cleaned up everything that it at the next morning after I got my ditches and everything my wife was still finding blood droplets in the bathroom and in other places that I don't even think of So let me just say that I think it's pretty hard to clean up a murder scene of all the blood, because I thought I did a pretty good job, and apparently I didn't so interesting story tonight cross the pond all right and we have quite a number of lives there's from the uk and many People have sent in request please cover a british case
over and over again, and so we ve looked into it. We had many requests force very famous cases and, of course we already cover princess die, death out of all the ones that I looked at, I would say in the top three, for me was the case that we're going to cover tonight. When it comes two we have, I would say the uk- is right behind the united states in terms of listeners. trust me we're not going to just ignore you and then On top of that, we also have a large number of australian listeners will. Definitely be adding more astray in cases as well and even been in contact with people for austria who want to guest on the show and and discuss some of these cases so yeah you can think of a case in Austria, its honour, lest trust me the case tonight the one that caught my eye and am sure is caught justin's now that he's looked into it is Mary bell.
This is not, I know that kids, do horrible things, but this is truly the nature verses nurture argument. Mary bell is, we are an eleven year old girl who was accused and charged with the murder of two younger boys, start with that and Walla will try to paint a picture of how how a little girl like this gets to this point where she is accused and charged with murder. Yeah, that's the mystery, so many people have looked into this and and asked how does a person become a murderer and since Mary bell killed more than one person, indifferent time periods she's? finally she's a serial killer so any given her age it just it really stands out now. I know why
going to get into where she came from her home life when she was very young, I don't know you, you know so many people grow up in conditions like she did and were not we're not overrun with with killers like this now like her so again. This is something people are going to keep investigating over time. Perhaps one day will have an answer, but right now I think it's just too complex because we bring were born with with certain attributes with certain types of brains. So there's no telling what kind of man stir Betty bell gave birth to. But let's talk about her mother Betty bell, she's says she's, not a very good person I guess one of her parents died in she kind of had a mental breakdown from that her father, her father passed
and she started going off the deep end. We don't know who who her father was, but she married man who was an alcoholic and drunk her mother. It said that she was a prostitute, and she brought johns into the home. Her mother was an alcoholic also and fought with had the step father very hostile environment for a child. What was the town they lived in? Its scots would scots would an scots wood was pretty much a ghetto. It was very poor. They were we're in the process of bulldozing and tearing down a lot of the projects and water the homes, but they weren't real, quick about it. So essentially they left these abandoned structures everywhere, and the children would play any structures and supervised in her mother. Never ask
where Mary was going so her mom, not not the best person right in from early on. There is all sleep. I would almost characterize it as animosity betty just doesn't seem to lie. her own daughter, very much and its evelyn in the way that she treats her. It said when she gave birth tour, the fur thing that betty said about her daughter was take. That thing away from me That is clearly shouted that so that that might be hearsay but give the environment, cheese in and the number of times that she drops Mary off with relatives. It's just sort of evident that she doesn't really want the responsibility of her. But then she almost seems to exploit her. I suppose we'll get into that later. But one of the first traumatic things I see here is that
tries to give Mary away to a stranger. That's insanity to just want to give away your child, but was it a complete stranger? Was it a john did? Did you find out. it's it's a woman, and the only reason that Mary wasn't taken away is because His sister followed her, and she saw what was happening. She really was concerned about Mary. It doesn't sound like she trusted Betty very much with her author. I also read that she tried to adopt her daughter to others only members, so she was really trying to get rid of mary. Just Mary did not seem to be a convenience to her as more of a while. That's where the exploitation comes,
because no matter what betty does she always comes back for her daughter and that's just sort of curious. Why does she might ass? She act like she wants her daughter to be gone and yet goes in retrieves her time after time. In from what I understand, the family even tries to say, look we'll take her, don't worry about it, but she always comes back for n and mary goes. With her mother, it's a weird sentinel, I've seen it myself, where it's a pride thing where it's on her terms. If, she wants to give Mary away. Then that's ok, but if somebody wants to take mary or take her daughter because she's an unfair parent, that's not acceptable, so she asked approve them wrong cause. It's not on her terms, the other make sense, Another thing that happens early on is Mary has a friend whose five and this friend gets run over by a bus.
So early on mary witnesses, someone killed run forever In mary, she has a friend norma, whose a couple older than her right, norma bell, although they say there's no relation here, they just happened to have the same last name: as we go on, you hear more about this, but they say that nature of their relationship. Is that marries the leir despite being younger, she's, intellectually she's she operates at a higher level than the normal does, and it's quite evident in The way she speaks, but in the way she deceives and normal as much of a follower, so in this poverty stricken area with children just pretty much around doing whatever they want unsupervised and abandoned buildings.
her norma are a team. It said that they pick on children on the playground. It said that they even go so far as to TAT some of the children. I know that norma and mary were arrested for a theft from a gas meter. I guess back in the sixties. They had. I guess honor system meters or some kind of meter where you'd go unpaid, put money in it and they broke into it and stole money out of it and they were arrested and when the police officers arrested mary and asked her about the theft. He said no comment, she's, not even ten years old and she's, telling a police officer no comment. This is not a good sign The manipulation deception is is already in full force, so
Right in a more mature manner than one would expect from a young child, I suppose you could call them bullies. Certainly seemed as though there were some anger issues there. This is why we say that there's a stability of the environs, She was in contributing to the person that she is in the person she becomes because she's starts out abuse People who rage people around her and younger relatives by it. It sort of you could say it: it escalates Why it escalates is unknown. One could guess that her environment has something to do with this. her mother brings. And men into the home for prostitution purposes. Mary was there. And to be possibly reducing on some of these pills that she would get out of her mothers purse or that her mother may have given to her and the
you add in the fact that her mother doesn't seem to really love her and you have sort of a really harsh unforgiving environs and in her own home we make sense. I mean if she's got a job in the home and she wants privacy. I mean what better way to get the the child out of the picture than to give her pills and dope her out knock her out, or maybe she gave her pills and knocked her out for other uses for other motives. Yeah there's somebody possibilities here on why she would have these pills Suddenly. It may have also been that she wanted her daughter to just overdose period. So it's it's hard to know on that. Does that that would all begin work, and we really only have Mary herself who talks of this, aren't relatives who come out and can verify some of the worst aspects of her story,
but moving on so she's had some incidents, she's injured, some different children over time lightweight. Let's describe a couple. These attacks The first one was a three year old boy, Her norma talked into coming with them to go to the candy store or something, and he takes off and he disappears and they can't find him for a while. I wouldn't molly. Somebody finally comes across him, whether it be the shop owner or apparent he's bloody, in dazed, and they talk about that. They either beat him or or tossed him off a roof. He doesn't really have much to say about the attack, but he knows who did? It too
and so they know that mary Ann Norma were involved, but because of their age, the police dismissed it that the police didn't investigate too much, because who knows it could just be us a school. You know playground schoolyard fight, could and something very simple like that. Another attack was a little girl named Pauline, who is actually about marries age. In that the children always said that Mary had a very vicious temper, very short temper, and when you get angry, she would lock her eyes on on you and you knew that you are in trouble, and so one day pauline was her target.
and she started strangling Pauline on the playground. Norma could tell that this wasn't going to be a good thing and intervened got marry off of pauline again. The authorities recalled the school officials were notified, but again it was dismissed as a a schoolyard fight children. You know playing or children playing too rough, and at no point did they investigate this or the other child. They just dismissed it. You know they just said mary is a as an aggressive girl Her teachers had written down in their notes that cheap had attack students and she was very aggressive and had a temper on her at that Pauline was at least her sighs and her her age. So I can, you know: maybe she was able to defend herself a little bit better
She's now known for strangling children on the schoolyard that's kind of telling at her age. That's most time they punch you in the face. They pull your hair but strangling that's a that's kind of scary. Yet is this something that she found out about through her mothers activity? her mother may have been involved in saito masochism or something we don't know where data. Maybe she was strangling herb, step father. She watched them fight in oh yeah, I'm this is just a gas by get the feeling that Mary was a witness to what mother was doing inside the home, often times I dunno mate, perhaps resentful of the way the lifestyle that she had to live, so She was using things that she saw, but using them in a very violent manner whose her first victim
well there's a young boy, he's four years old, his name's martin brown, and they they find and in a an abandoned building. Maybe it was a home, some workers came in and found the boys body and obviously he was playing you know in this abandoned home and they couldn't really distinguish how died they, they weren't sure, but they thought it was suspicious enough because he was found in a in a house that they called the authorities and the authorities came and investigated it. But by the end of it the authorities had pretty much said he had either died of fright or possibly oh deed- on pills that pretty much the case on their own wide heard about the pills, because there was an empty pill bottle near by and so suspected that possibly the boy had taken a bunch of pills.
They just assume that he, it was no malicious. Note no malleson ten there. They they just assume that he died a horrible accident and being that this run down area with broken. Buildings was called rat alley. The newspaper said a rat alley boy found dead and thus meet our control. into the stereotype of that you know dilapidated area, they contributed. The dilapidated area, to the death of the boy saying well, if we didn't have these empty homes and buildings, maybe there's these accidents wouldn't happen, and so these they had a protest and a march saying you know please work faster.
Get these buildings knocked out. Lets you know refurbish the area. Let's get this nicer and Mary was at all the marches right out in front she liked to be in the center, but the spotlight, yeah the sense that these people didn't really watch after their kids that they'd burgess left. raise themselves. Essentially there into beanie helicopter parents and also when the police did a public announcements or pr events. Mary was every single one, listening intently and the front sort of putting herself in in deed Is it in trying to see the outcome
She also winton visited the little boys mother after his death and asked if he could come how she could see him and the mother said my boys dead, and she said. I know that I still would like to see him and at that point, martin, bronze mother, got martens father to get married. get off their porch, which that's kind of creepy too they didn't. She say I want to see him in his coffin yeah. She thought that he would be at the house like she's. Old enough to understand that he no longer lives there. She understands that he's dead, but she doesn't understand that he's no longer there like sore the disconnect at all well, but there is also possibly I dont know what it was like there at the time betty it's possible that far They may have had a loved one in there,
often in their home, for visitation at times. Yes, but I think at that point it been a week or two from the time of the incident, so I don't think the visitation would lasted that law I think it was just her naive understanding of life and death at that point or messing with the mother yeah just being cruel but at this point they don't call mary in their not looking at this as there, a murderer out there. No, no, they missed I noticed the the death they did not investigated. Who would have guessed to go? Look for a child. Let's talk about the day nursery Because the day nursery in may of this year is open into and vandalized failure and notes left. Yes, there are notes talking about how.
aye aye murder? So I can come back. There are notes that talk about I killed martin and weird crude drawings. Yes, the notes are varied, being. I have the right here. I murders of that may come back, I dont know the meaning of that one, but to me at first it sounds like it could be that she somehow going to come back, the dead at some point? But when I read it over and over again it it started started to say to me that you'd better watch out cause. I could come back. I I just look at it as kids, right, dumb stuff, teenagers write dumb stuff, they think, they're being you know deep and poetic and in dark, but I just look at his kind of ramblings. Another note said: fuck off we murder
out fanny and faggot. The f word is F, you c h and off his o f. We did murder, Marchand brown fuck off you bastard their violent notes one last one. You are my sea because we murder Martin go brown, look out there armors about by fan. and all faggot you screws, and these, of course miss spelled. It was odd. To the authorities that these notes were written by children are whether or not there written by the actual murderer, just people to the kids trying to be taunting and cruel. Well, they they didn't think cause, they didn't think Morton had been killed. Yeah drifting is so that day the the police bringing the notes back to their station, mary draws an image of a boy in the exact same
position that Martin brown is found in and she wrote, the word tablet, yeah meaning that the pill bottle or those pills our by his body when so the the nursery actually in tal some sort of in an alarm because they suspected this isn't the last time they get those visitors and it pays. off because friday the same week, the alarm sounds off the nursery and they catch me free and norma there. So it's pretty obvious that they were the same people that broke in and probably the people that wrote the cruel notes. While Mary denies it at first see, she said that they do broken in their before, but yeah in and then not too long after within a week Mary ends up attacking norma great friend Mary ends up pointing at martens house at this time
and in saying that house over there. That's where I killed pointing out The body was found right because my he's got a mouth on her again. People aren't making her seriously, they figure she's, she's aggressive. She talks a lot and they're. Not putting it together there not seeing her as as the threat. She really is no and why? Why would who? Whatever guess than the number of children who are capable of murder, a very small number. But I have heard the report that I do not believe young children are capable of murder and I've been in conversations with people like this, and that's actually one of the reasons why this case attracted me, but I wanted to talk about, is because this is a young girl whose ramping up
We already discussed the death martin brown and how the authorities at this point aren't taking this seriously, They just can't imagine that he was that he was murdered will, as will see Mary not done yet she's getting started here, and it's going to get worse. The thirty first of July, which is about two months after the death of martin brown, there's another child who is three years old younger than Martin smaller and his name is brian. How and they find his body andy ten lizzie, the grassy area behind the projects. Joy at taxes, age, ass and Y see is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series american horror story created. ryan murphy and brad fell chuck with to all episodes airing each week it promised
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as though he was killed by an adult they they described it as it was there, was something playful about it. It's still horrific its shocking. And they found a pair of scissors near by which were partially broken. Like one of the one of the ends the scissors were were bent, was bent yet bent or broken off. His belly was cut into though someone was cutting letters into it from what I understand it was described as it look like someone to cut an n into it and be, but then someone came back in may the end. Look like an m, possibly a normal bell, change to a merry bell. Yet Is it because there is no Adele and Mary bell. You eat after wonder if, if Norma cut the n
in there and then marry corrected it again. The police announcements about this case, an investigation mary, is at the front of all the pr engagements she's asking the police questions. She's engaged in this horrific crime, putting herself kind of frontal centre over this boy, this three year old boy that was recently murdered while when they were looking for this boy. That's interesting thing is my he seemed to know all along where he was she says. Are you, king, freer brian so she Endormeur head off. If they're looking for him and go right over this. industrial area mary? points over towards these concrete blocks and says that he might playing behind there or he might between them
norma attempts to distract everyone and say: oh no, he he never goes over there, that's where they end up finding Brian is behind that area. I mean, I would say that problem what does hurrying right there? There is actually a nine year old boy, who is a witness places, all three of them, norma, mary and Brian, over their right. This is this. That's true, this her statement, plus his eye. Witness testimony, connects connects it together because, as far as I remember that boy, I may have had some issues: yeah yeah, but when you add those two things together, it just seems to be. It just seems to be too clear that she bald an inch and Mary admits that she was with him that day, Mary admits that they went to go play.
so essentially she's places herself there with the boy also, but she completely denies any involvement with the murder. Yes, she tries to say that there is some other boy that was with brian that day, in eight year old boy, there was a confrontation of some sort, but of course the police don't buy, is when the police start to home in on Mary. They they gotta, marries house to question her and her stepfather answers the door and yells at the police tells them to get off his property and tries. it's sick. His dog on them is I I guess I I only bring that up because it just kind of again shows what the home life is like. If, if her stepfather's willing to threaten police officers and investigators
you know what bodily harm in seeking the dog on them. He just doesn't sound like a great guy, well norma. This is where things start to get where, because norma and dont want to take credit for this crime and they start a point, fingers Mary, who claim that there was a boy with Brian that day she describes that boy playing with broken scissors. Now this is a really big give away, because the police hadn't told Anyone about the scissors and Mary suddenly knows about the scissors and exactly what they look like and how their damaged another thing the police never released, was the first boy, Martin brown being found with the pill bottle and she drew a pitcher of him with. You know, tablet with an arrow and they said that that was not public either.
yeah, there's no. There's no getting away at this point after their done listening to marry, tell her stories. They end of charging her to end up arresting her I think she said something like I'm all right with that yeah and she there impressed yet Shocked by the way she interviews when she's interrogated, they'll, ask her a question and shall answer that question denying all you know culpability with the crime but jump ahead. And start aunt. You know asking and answering more questions at she perceived them. Their anticipates them to be doing pretty much saying yes, I didn't do this, I wasn't there and you can. Let me go now you know you can say she's much here for her age. You can say she smart her age, but really it's she's, very manipulative for her age, more so than most
yes, even when she's been questioned by the police, even. one point ass if it the places bugged, which is where did she get this information from? nothing that would just be pulled from their. So obviously, she's been given this information by somebody some. an educated, her on the investigator process and the lines are questioning that she would face. I would imagine, enduring trial. It wasn't I mean it was publicized It was in the media and the news, but for once they didn't really glamorize. They didn't Over exaggerate things, they were very ice about it or sympathetic about it, because it here is a terrible tragedy. Here's
I'll. That's killed another child and they weren't out for blood there will. I we need to you know, treat these children with with sympathy and entreat them and not punish them. We need to make things right so that was kind of the the angle that I got from the trial. She actually describes the method in this. something that another witness, described, is but described it of mary Even though marries trying to a tribute this de Norma, she would rob a boy the little boys and say: oh, you have a sore throat this I'll help to make it better and as she would rob. She would start squeezing harder and harder. Now. my even says that marries fingertips would go white wench. She was really applying pressure. It's it's scary thought. I guess it's disturbing. Does thinking about
this young girl, who, by the time, she's this second murder she's eleven years old when I was looking at the story. I just assumed the eye, murderer, so that I may come back was written by Mary. It's really interesting, but they had some one look the notes compare handwriting marries and now as to the notes and they covered in their opinion, that norma had written that one. When you asked the question is: how much is normal involved in these murders? That's one part! Why would she right then issue just cool, because hanging out with the killer. Or is she writing it, because she's definitely involved again we the earlier about how Brian had an n carbon to him,
and this wasn't known right off the bat that they discovered after cleaning them up and some some time had passed but and then that Anne had been turned into an am apparently they could tell by the way it was cut off beyond that. They found fibers from mary on both of the bodies when they checked them out, and then they found fibers from norma on Brian yeah, so it seems that norma might have intervened in the past, but not in these two situations. She might have had more more of a hand in the and the two murders right So it's almost as though people have sympathy for mary bell, but they really have sympathy for norma because they don't go after the way they do mary history fi Mary had a a grey wool dress and that's
the fibers came from it. They found and norma had a maroon skirt, so pretty obvious I like they had to even look at these things under a microscope to kind of match them back to right. They were different, colors, the red and the grey, but that that even comes up at at during the trial, as is mary just wish he born bad or why she turned bad by her mother, the the black of love, the animosity, the exposure you're too her mother, seedy lifestyle and her abusive father. now, Norma is dismissed. Let go during the trial, she's not charged, They say that norma? Is slow or was in blue by Mary. Norma is,
father, were diminished capacity diminished capacity as a good word can only compare and contrast on how american courts they typically go after them to confess first. So I was prized in thankful that they were left. heavy handed with norma because of her diminished capacity it doesn't seem to be the case all the time they these they sometimes they go after them. hanging fruit and you're. The one that you will get you to confess tat s, because you're not all there, but they do go after mary and they go off her to the fullest extent of the law is far eleven year old girl go. You know they can't they can't charge her with
murder and stick her in an adult penitentiary. They they have to treat her as a child, because she is one, so they send her to twelve years, essentially fur from manslaughter. She goes to redwood, which is, I guess, a juvenile detentions where she is: the only girl she's, the only female reality the trial only lasted nine days, so I'm by today's standards, that seems kind of short by. I would say It's the overwhelming evidence, her knowledge of aspects of the crime I'm seeing its just it's too much. and even though you have this shit and she said it. really marry. That is putting it out there that she's a killer she's, the one that's taken credit for it when she's, not speaking to the poor
he's so Norma doesn't really seem to do that so much so I did there. They're probably is some truth to the fact that normal is more of a follower. And that Mary was the one who had she just said way more issues, but mary would say that her home life had a lot to do this and that both she and Norma were not happy and They were hoping either escape scotland or to just taken away by the authorities either way they just wanted an escape issues, interesting that in order to escape, she feels as though she needs to commit murder and then lie, out it. So I dont know how much truth there isn't that, because if she will I d be taken away. She could have committed murder and then just said, look what I did He had enough sense to know that what she did is wrong and she's gonna face strict penalty for it, so she's not an own up to it.
But it's interesting how her story changes whenever she's, not speaking to the authorities, awakening authorities. She wants to talk big and say look what I did And oh yeah, we want to run away or we don't care if we get taken away by the authorities, but when faced with law law enforcement, she puts on an act and just says I'm not going to answer, questions you you're always coming after me, and It is normal that did this, so she doesn't want take any credit so again, I think it's manipulation I think beat over we're going to get into it. But one of the big aspects of this case is that when, as time goes on she's going to serve twelve years. But it's.
almost as though the vast majority of people who look at this case feel sympathy for her feel like she's, a product of the environment her mother put her in and that she can really be held responsible measuring that up against what she said in what she does. How much empathy should we have for this person. I think people see a sharp young girl, so they have sympathy for because she, smart she's, she's witty she's, a young girl whose put in a bad situation. I know when she was in detention centre. She wrote a letter to her mother telling her mother to confess, because her mother is the actual guilty party in all this She brought it and realise that by writing her muff
with this letter she really is admitting guilt that she done these horrible things because she sang. I did these things because of you mom it's kind of heart wrenching to see that, because it's this epiphany this reality that she's in when she finally starts to sort of understand the the magnitude of the situation she's in. Do you think some kids are just one bad? I dont know I you look at sea. People, Jeffrey Dahmer, for instance, from what I stand. He had a very good upbringing. there is nothing there to indicate that he would become such a monster but, as we all know, he was downright despicable
and there is nothing to show why he would become what he was, what he became ye. I in a case like this, where we were able to see her, in person or even on the news. The this is, years later, that were approaching this David I'll just be it'd, be guess You know we have no way of knowing just going off of her statements and what she did. I personally think that it's a combination of things that that she was born bad, but I think her her lifestyle. The way He was brought up escalated it. Anyone can be borne bad but Some of us are as susceptible to the realities of life or abuse whatever. So somebody can be
worn bad, but have a good life and never do bad things, whereas other people might be borne neutral in some bad things, turn them bad. I know there is a guide. I was trying to study serial killers and cycle paths and he looked he he scanned their brains, and he found ace particular brain pattern that all cycle had then for giggles he's like long scanned, my own brain disguise a scientist normal guy and he had the same brain pattern as a psychopath. Yet he wasn't moon. A terrible person. He wasn't a liar, he wasn't murdering people, maybe he just wasn't susceptible the same environmental aspects that these other people were, and I think, with with Mary, I couldn't tell you she was born back
but in that environment choose very susceptible to what happened to her, and I definitely hey that her her mother or her upbringing is a lot to blame, not that she's totally innocence of her own actions but she's a child. So how? How accountable can we hold her? You know, I think, about the walk, dead in that one season were the two little girls are on there and the one just has no clue that The dead people are zombies, trying to eat her, and she thinks it's pretty cool that when you die, you get to come back and she is up killing her sister cause she's like no, it's cool, she's gonna come back and in
the environment of the walking dead, a post, apocalyptic zombie world. There is no therapy for a child like this, there's no rehabilitation, so they have to deal with her the way they deal with her, and I guess, with Mary bell, it's good that she got the help she needed. She we had the therapy, we have the society with the structure to pretty much he'll with a child that is so gone there, direction such as mary cause when she gets out when she's twenty three years old. She gets a name change. She gets to live. You know a new life where she does struggle right when she gets out and she actually, I guess, the commit some crimes cause she's, trying to write shoplifting or something where she's trying to get put back in jail cause. She so freaked out
the freedom which, I don't think it's I'm a criminal and I want to go back to jail. I think it's when you ve been institutionalized for twelve years. That's all you know. We see it with other cases where people are released or exonerated but We finally moves on and lives a fairly reasonable life where she marries and has a child. I guessed the ring irritation was a success hand. She was able to get the help that she needed. It was just too bad that it was too late. Well her getting help maybe a question, because I dont know that everyone would agree that she's been brought around. She hasn't killed anyone you say that by it you know her,
If changes she ends up having a daughter in nineteen, eighty four and then, of course, she becomes a grandmother later on the two thousands you know, let's start with the victim's relatives, they they don't feel as though justice be done. As far as I can tell no, of course now, if you've lost your child, doesn't matter what the system has done
If there is no rehabilitation, they want to see punishment yeah she. So, even though she is anonymity, the press actually tracks her down at some point and discovers where she is and things well, so they report on they they're forced to move, marry again hurt her daughter is given the same anonymity and protection and that same anonymity and protection is passed down to marry his granddaughter who's known as Xe in the press. It's now it's it. I I suppose, previous to that time, this just wasn't done to have this lifetime anonymity before you were granted anonymity for a certain number of years, it was asked
that she receive lifetime protection for herself for her daughter and her granddaughter and they granted it. It seems as though the government believes that it did the right thing and ass. She or time that she's been somewhat. The ability to aid no longer a threat to society. Right well is that's. The question is Is she really in the end? Is this what we're trying to say in the end she's not really responsible for her actions that she was put in an unreasoning situation in unreasonable environment. the only outcome was horror and death so now that they ve got her away from that and away from her crazy mother that she's going to be ok.
What what we do know is, despite her anonymity, she was involved in a couple of books about her life and about these murders. The author doesn't seem to have a problem point, out that she thinks Mary may still be psychopathic because of the way her emotions run and when She is talking about a murderer. She seems to act sad about it, but that sadness, into happiness or some other emotion? You know at the drop of a hat, it's almost like she's. You expect me to be sad. So therefore, I'm goin to act or behave sad, it's like Alan. essentially yeah. She didn't seem genuine, so it's in the ets going beyond that she was well, to make quite a large sum of money from the books, the authored tries to say well, it's real
for her daughter. There is some outrage to this. I know when I was first reading about it. The source was saying that no one was upset with this, but it does seem as though people were upset him. It definitely in in america, you're not allowed to profit. If you committed a crime, you're not allowed to profit from that crime, so you you can, you know, write a book you're, not making any money, and- and I would That de the culture in america is that child is a lost cause, put him in jail for the rest of his life for her life. They there would be no rehabilitation there. It would be put em away. That's
really the question here, so she re she's in there for twelve years, then she gets out. The alternative is to keep her in there yes lifetime because of the horrific nature of the crimes. What do you think about that made? You think well yeah lifetime, or do you think twelve years was fair? I mean if, if you have the say, so what do you do with her? So when I first heard about this case and that she murdered two boys, I thought she did it all in one incident and I was giving her a lot more of a pass like okay, maybe she snapped, or maybe she killed these two boys and then she went to jail, but there was two months between the two. Murders, so she planned them, but at the same time, she's eleven. What do you do with an eleven year old? And that's that's why I bring up the walking dead it's like well, it depends on the society that you live in.
It depends on the environment that you have and the resources that you have and with what they had doubts the best they could do they didn't they they sensor to twelve years, I mean typically a lotta juvenile clark. Crimes they get out on their eighteen, because now there an adult in boom they can get out so for them to hold her until she was twenty three, at least there is that at least she went from a juvenile detention centre to a real prison. serve some time. I dont think an eleven year old is capable of understanding the consequences of their actions. Now, if you'd keeper in a institution or you know, like a mental lord. I probably wouldn't have been too against that, but keeping her in prison for the rest of your life
grew with that. I don't think I'm eleven year old understands their the ramifications of their actions at that point I have a hard time trying to figure out what I would have done with her, because it's difficult to know whether her statements are true or not, because she never really seem to tell the truth in the past. So when she comes out and says that her mother used her as essentially a sex toy, if some of these johns, you wonder if she was trying to release pent up anger and frustration with the shortcomings of her life and that's putting it mildly. So if, if her mother really put her through the wringer, it's difficult to say what her motivations were. They could be for escape or she could be just a bad person or it could be
you know when we talk about her apparent deception years later or psychopath ii, that perhaps he just spent too much time doing that stuff. So it sort of just ingrained in her to act. That way it's almost like she may have stopped killing, but she still is who she is yeah. I I believe that I I don't think she has changed much. She just understands that her her action swore have ramifications regardless of remorse, regardless of repentance, just now knows. This is how you have to behave in society and you can't go around killing people. Well. The way I looked at it was when she committed these. I am, she was a child under under her mothers, roof lucy, obviously despised. Now that she's in All she runs her own house. She knew
longer has that pressure on her, and so I feel like perhaps that's why she's not killing anymore if she isn't because she's not in that same situation, she's not having to exercise islands to feel like she has any power she's already that of her own household jazz, the power no right since she doesn't have to kill it now, because she's moved on but you I don't. I don't really get the sense that she was sorry for what she did again. You know you can cut see the other side where you say well, if it wasn't really her fault begin with that she was put in this situation. Then it's hard for her to apologize for something that was beyond. Control. Do you think it should be a requirement that people show remorse or say their sorry for their crimes before their released or peru I don't know because anyone can lie about that.
It's just it's one of those things. I think we as a society would like to see it's it's it's nice, which it gives us a better feeling about somebody. There already going to be released to be nice to see them expressed some remorse I suppose I put like, does the there's just no good here? No, do you for me at the end of this, I don't feel like well she's real. Tat everything's better. Now I feel like she's, changed environments, she's, changed lives and she's Ai, I think it would have meant something more if she had were express some real remorse, which I just never found that
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.