Humboldt County in California is known for its marijuana production, making up well over half of the total grown in the United States. But it's also known for how many people disappear there. The new Netlfix docuseries, Murder Mountain, follows the story of a man named Garrett Rodriguez who may have met with foul play. Despite testimony that the man was murdered, law enforcement has chosen not to take the investigation further. But why? Josh Zeman, director of The Killing Season and Cropsey, joins the podcast to discuss his experiences making Murder Mountain and shares what he has learned. Whether you have watched the series or not, you'll want to hear about Humboldt County, California and the unique situation that exists there. Murder Mountain, a six part docuseries, is out now on Netflix.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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The billion dollar marijuana industry that we have today, if you're unfamiliar with humboldt county Andy emerald, triangle, his little bit of history back in nineteen. Ninety six, California passed proposition two fifteen, the compact knit use act which legalised medical use of marijuana? At the same time, we had humble county, which is a very I- Insulated secluded area, it's very wooded twisty, unpaved roads, going deep into the mountains. You had ex vietnam vets, hippies, outdoorsy people, all coming together in this one area to essentially grow marijuana illegally. It was this underground gold rush that was completely unregulated without any government oversight.
and you have to realise that when all of the entrepreneurs, if you will, on this mountain, our doings any legal they do not want the government interfering and even if they need law enforcement, while they can't call them because they risk being arrested, themselves, the residence on murder, mountain we'll go so far as to park, construction equipment or other types of roadblocks to prevent law enforcement and others bring down their road. These growers needed a labour force which they had to pay under the table. So now we have people might waiting in and out of this area, where for a season or two and then leaving? But if ever how? a dispute with another person,
They have to resolve it themselves. This creates a volatile environment where disputes are handled with violence and people go missing all the time the documentary follows a story about a twenty nine year old man named garrett rodriguez who goes missing his family, especially his father, tries to locate him when he has zero luck. He will file missing persons report with local law enforcement, the response, It's from the sheriff let's just say- isn't satisfactory- now being that people on this mountain results their own issues, a lot of the residents, are getting sick and tired of being bullied or having other residents disappear. There's rumours of garrets murder and death and that his body
It's been buried in a shallow grave on the side of the mountain, so a group of men who will later be called the altar point, eight decide to take matters into their own hands. With this rumour murder. They confront the man who is alleged to have taken rodriguez's lie, one of the men will end up, shooting the accused and pistol whipping him. They will beat a confession out of him and force him to lead them to garrets body. Now this vigilante justice comes off as if it's a good thing. It's now given closure to the family. It's solved. Murder that law The law enforcement wasn't willing or able to investigate, but violence begets violence and you see the ripple effect.
of all of the choices that are made on the side of this mountain. Now, I've had josh on the show a couple times get along very well and we just have a conversation, and I dont actually him. A lot of questions. We just talk about humboldt county, the history and the environment and culture in this area. I still highly recommend that you watch this documentary. It's a version of anarchy that we don't get to see in modern society. Very often without further ado, here's josh, I started murder mountain last week, and then I had a snowstorm hit Missouri over the weekend says without power and internet yeah wasn't able to finish it until literally just right now, fresh in my Thank you very much for taking the time you had no problem, Missouri
It's legalized medical marijuana. So I hope we don't step through the same potholes that I just watched in your documentary. What was your motivation where the story gets interesting. We had originally heard about a lot of missing persons in this one, unique maria humble county in northern california. That's always picks out my interest. Of course I haven't done crops in looking at these ideas of missing people. It's just that when we really started to into the story line. We realized was so much more involved. Just a story about missing people, I'm from new york and I no idea, the extent if the world beyond San francisco and I just had no idea idea that there could be this community of lawlessness, if you will just-
in the continental, united states and in today's world. In the last twenty years we have literally the wild west going on in this area would always dig on you. Take thee mystique the legend more seriously. and I it's weird that we put a persona on this mountain when it's really the people that create this legend. This mythos, I always like to attack things from. What's the legend, how was it created and what's the reality, and We had heard about this legendary place. This murder mountain, where the cops don't go, and I was like Well, let's go there. You know tell me where the cops don't go and that's where I want to go, and you know it had this
somewhat nefarious history about a serial killer or to serial killers that I can have never heard of gin and bear karlsson. But it was just this fascinating world, it's almost like the alamo. You know it's the rest of the world while it legalise we'd. There is just one last point asking about war mentality where they're not gonna, go down without a fight and you know, once we got up there, it was pretty crazy. We I to get to know this community people would stop us on the road. They say who the hell are you Where are you from? Why do you have cameras? Are you afraid, and we would say no and theirs they would say? Well, you should be and then drive off you, so it was pre ominous this community, but you know four a journalist filmmaker when someone tells you you know it keep out. That's, of course, exact
They were you wanna go, and you want to find out why? If you told me there was a place where the cops dont go or hands off. I wouldn't believe it. I would just say: no, that's, that's! Not a thing cops go wherever they want, but in this case for at least the first portion of your documentary. Indeed, in the past and the history when this was at its source peak its climax, they really didn't go up there and if they do did. They were escorted by the residents which that was a crazy scene to watch of a tvs and guys with automatic weapons, escorting a police convoy up a mouse You know a lot of ways and tragically it's it's like the get a quorum, we're like if you go in you go in armed to the teeth or like the favelas. You know, and again with just so fascinating that this kind of what could be considered the story out of the wild west, especially when that deals with vigilante.
this could be happening here in the modern day. So that was the question of the series. How could this story of what sounds like its vigilante? Justice, the eighteen sixties, be happening. in the modern era, and so that's what we tried to investigate. You know, and it was very interesting because the reason would do a lot of. They didn't want the police at there, of course, because they grow, we at any time the police came up there. They were seated. run need an and bus them. So they did all these things to prevent the police from from getting up there. They would take construction equipment and pull out the necessary in a block the distributor, cabin leave it on the road they would lock the gates. They would do all these things to prevent the police from getting up there. The roads were so incredibly bad, that you had to have a four by for vehicle to even get up the hill. Do you know what the missing person of humble as compared to say that as a california?
well ok to use a very interesting things, because we all know that statistics lie just right and so humble county has more missing persons, per capita than any other county in in california by definition of its population. But what we don't realize I wish we got to show this more was that there are more people found also so there's more missing persons reports, but there's more people found than any other place in it more missing persons reports- because there are so many people who go off and work in the hills, I think it's a lot of kids who love to smoke dope, love to smoke, weed love the weed culture here, they found their theoretical shangri LA and then they when they work on these mountain top forms and they suddenly real. Oh, my god. I had known listen, I can't get home nor
tell their parents back home. Yes, I'm going to work on a wheat phone, so you get a lot of very concerned parents who suddenly hadn't heard from billy sue Ann. You know suddenly called police and unfortunately, once billion sewer found the parents, don't call the police back and save me found them. So the statistics kind of lie I get it and it's not even eight a black market should say it's a black industry, because when The product is illegal, then everything you have to do to to create this product is illegal and even your workers have to be paid under the table and like in a year, undocumented worker waved a and verifiable no records kept way, and I think it's a perfect storm for arguments to
happen, when somebody, oh somebody money or you, think somebody stole from you and there's no law to investigate. Why Just take matters into your hands because you have no fall back in everybody's hot. Let the other thing there's another interesting thing and I wish we done to ignore. You know, first of all, let's just a first stop that there are many more wonderful farmers growers than there are negative ones, theirs Few bad apples. Unfortunately, and me, there's more than a few in this case, so you have a whole bunch of different. kind of organizations you ve got the hippies back to the landers you ve got me, bulgarians you had the former how's angels, you have the mexican quoting called cartels, but they may not be here cartels who just smaller what they called drug trafficking organization.
You also have the even you know the five lawyers from Chicago whereby rolling in operation. So you have all these different groups of individuals going in there, and none of them are quite kind of least per se- and they all have different levels of quota cope alone. MR criminality, of what you want, but the one thing that remains constant is, Fortunately there is a lot of drugs outside and just we'd, for example, when you're crop your flower, you know, is ready to be harvested. You harvest all that flower and on your property, you probably end up having thirty forty fifty a hundred pounds of we'd that anybody if they wanted to come on to your property, with a bunch of guns and steal on your we'd? Well, that's very It is time for a lot of the growers until they finally selling this week from the point of which tourism to the point which they sell it there,
sitting on a gold mine and as a result, they get very nervous and up doing a lot of men to kind of stay up so that they can be around the clock to protect their. We because her. are a lot of home. Invasions that go on up there. There's a lot of drugs being mixed in there's a lot of perfect storm factors that create situations like murmur. Right. They are doing something illegal or something under the tape. Also they are very hesitant or reluctant to call real law and order. But then, when you have saying outside family, whose missing their loved one actually call the police. Their response isn't quite what most of these families would expect her. Why- and I think you really hammered that home with the documentary look. The amazing thing is- and this is what I enjoy is a filmmaker- is picking
situation where it seems like there's rights wrongs and it seems there is the good and bad but nobody's right, and nobody is wrong. You can kind of understand every side of it. If you were a police officer, let me tell you how frustrating it would be too up and look for somebody and nobody. Let you on your property. but it's slammed the door in your face, or you say I'm here to help you days. Do you know what they say? We don't want your help or I'm here to investigate one of your workers who is shot, and nobody wants to speak to you- also it's just an incredibly arduous process to even go up to these since its just it's like an hour and a half away its. You know it's a half an hour on a dirt road, with no lights or directions or anything. So we can understand. Why is right-
training for the police and why they may not be so incentivize to help or why they just may throw up their hands and say what we want me to do at the same time. You know junior grower, your steadily legitimate and you know, everything's fine and you dont want the cops around until that one day, when you open up your door, there's five masked intruders with them a our fifteen to come at you suddenly they tie up, they beat you up, they take all your money back on. What are we supposed to do like you need to call the authorities because it just been, abd? You know by masked intruder, so it really creates a difficult situation. I I like to think that the law enforcement and the growers they're both cannon fodder in a much larger political war on leap, and it seems that by the end of the documentary, the the new guard of law enforcement,
Finally took a more active role that that's all with the accumulation of legalization and regulation, so it it gave me a sense of hope that things were changing their it's. It's interesting. That sheriff is a great sheriff. he wants to show came out. They really kind of stout attacked they put out a very- a long and lengthy press release refuting some things. I think they also put out a pressing was to let the world know that you cannot connect on here said I think they also put out a press release to say like this is an incredibly difficult case to prosecute because of what had already happened. I have hoped that this guy going to be the best sheriff to lead at the same time You can only imagine how much corruption
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calm suggestion, why code jen? Why, as the public, we think fairness and when it comes to this off, sheriff saying: will they never met the level of probable cause they needed to go search the skies property yet taken polio and saw the road if they smell wheat, which I'm sure that whole entire place- mozart weed, ass- I slowly they can search your car. I mean probable cause, I think, is the easiest things for law enforcement to prove. Yet when it came to murder and missing persons, low hanging fruit is what they after and when it comes to the more serious stuff. It's oh well, we need probable cause and I'm sure that their statement that they made was sort of in response to that. But I think you can get probable cause way easier than what you're stating here, because we see it happen
every day on our roads yeah. I would agree with you on that part like that is where the arguments falter. Yes, they could have done much more at the same time. You know, I do think. Knowing what they were known, but the current sheriff was handed in terms of a case I think, is very frustrating. You know this guy has got the worst case in the world. You know so we also try and make the distinction between the rule of law and the rule of man, you know and- and that was why this case of vigilante justice was a great juxtaposition to what was happening in terms of the larger legalization issue. these guys doing right. Are they doing wrong? Are they doing right and wrong in it current circumstances. What is right, what is who's in our, whose criminal and so juxtaposing these two in other small cases,
you're, a rigorous in vigilante justice against the much larger acacia case of legalization. You're, really able to ask those questions against each other, and both emotionally invested in either case in either side. That argument, you know what I'm saying and when it comes to vigilante justice, we all have our idea of a superhero that goes in and does something, but one man, superhero is another man's terrorist store and murder and it's that question and these guys the and the other point. Eight alder point: eight, these guys. You know that they go in there and for all accounts, they're kind of doing the right thing. They seem to be fighting against the the actual crime and criminal elements of murder mountain, yet there adding to it by being vigilantes. That's a double edged sword. It only increases the meet those
you know it's like the perfect scenario of a western, whereas you know it's chinatown jack. damned, if you do your damned, if you dont, you know, I'm lived by the gun die by the got. It was very interesting when we went in it, in this case the joy to justice, and it wasn't just as one case that little kay spiraled and create the you know that it's not coincidental that the two leaders of the other point eight are now dead from other examples of violence. So it's just what created in this kind of unity. It becomes a microcosm and again that were so fascinating to us, an allowed us to juxtapose smaller What line against the bigger ones it sad because you paint a very clear message with well if this array, no crime had been investigated. If this original person had been arrested, all these ripple effects from this vigilante justice, other things would have happened. I'm sure other crimes would have been
I did, but this cycle of violence could have been stopped. It's true, but what I really penetrating and that's why we put the additional story of Zack harrison in this kid is that you know or our goal at the end of the day, was to both examined the legend and to stop it to cut it off at its needs, you know worse, you can never do that. All every examination of the of a legend, whether you know a fictional examination or a documentary, only purports and and use the ledge, however, but he's gonna know that when a man, but a point was the kind of bringing to light so that people can understand- these stories continue on that kid Zack Harrison he did what he did, because he had he was from murder, men and women. From murder mountain. You can shoot first and ask questions later you know. You can run from the cops, and so it just comes this very amazing kind of worst case
scenario by definition of inaction, and then you have the the accidental shooting that happened in people shooting each other and again this comes two. If, if there was a of law over the land. You wouldn't have people that were so on edge paranoid and for the first I'm in my life, I'm like yeah, they they need some more police officers they're here, that's right at the end that the interesting thing, for the first time in your life, you, like hey, gets some cops up there, because these people need some help in up, but then you know legalise marijuana and you see the government set regulations and price people out of the market. You see them with so much regulation that some of them dont know if they're, even within alignment with law or not, it's a catch,
twenty two it's like damned, if you do damned, if you don't and do they even regulate the way, we would think that they should be adopted and works right. It's like well, if I didn't have regulation years, the bad things that happen, but now Do you have regulation? Here's the bad things are happening, but the other layer is. This is just to state of california. Its mass federally legal, so it's like a cat, twenty two with an irony on top, so at eleven to twenty two becomes thirty three, because technically you can't put your money in any bank. That's empty icy, ensure it if it became to the point of ridiculous and I was just like I remember. We were sitting there at some. There were some conference that they were having at the local community center and in
conference at the community center. The government officials were trying to explain to these growers how legalization was going to happen, how people could prepare and how people could jump into the market, and- and it's like, how do you build a tax base out of an illegal market- and I remember one of the growers civil. What what do you want me to do and how to pay taxes and the guy I said well, you know, keep your receipts and you're, like, oh, my god, you're telling this guy to keep receipts from a drug deal with like a bunch of like gang members like for for mexican cartels, But I just couldn't believe that the two sides that were speaking in how they were so far from it consensus and their bad attach again. It's the public trying to do the right thing.
then literally a government trying to n this. This duality of states, legalized it, but federal government has not literally I, and so you know in some ways it it's a no win situation. you are not going to smoothly transition. A million dollar outlaw market entry regulated one without sometimes in the road. I think it's going to take another five to six years before that The ultimate irony is the back to the landers, who these are the folks. Basically who were hippies in the late sixties. They saw their hippy dream, become What my manson, by mixing and answer they left hate, ask very miserable. We want far away from the man, is possible. They found a lot of land and humbled day. You know
lived as far off the greatest they could. They develop solar power, which is something we never got into. I wish we could they grew red, and but we was just a staple like in tomatoes and all the other staples. But did these general growers ever think that when they plant these seeds with a bunch of Ben spoons- that this would turn into what will become a five point. One billion dollar industry, for the state of california or a twenty two billion dollar industry for the united states, probably not, I think, of the first people that came to america probably didn't understand what we'd become too two hundred and fifty years later so, but but this is a fairly can condense time period like we're only speaking, you know forty five years, like that's an awful short time,
to go from, you know zero to five billion. You know the other thing we I don't. I don't love. You stated. The california is the eighth largest only in the world the world? So you know this is this is an unbelievable undertaking and were not through the words yet by any stretch of the means, I think we're just started. How was humble when you were there, what was your Just initial take on these people and your interactions day today Humbled is an unbelievably beautiful place, as they say you don't choose. Humble humble chooses. You found that to be really prophetic. When the hippies move there in the lately, in six years, allow them and observing their cause. That's what they're bus broke down? You can hear that and over and over, like I just happened to come here and it's an unbelievably
uniform area. I've never quite seen an area so beautiful, but their secrets in the mountains. Underneath all that missed in that farc. You know yet, huge redwoods and it's just an unbelievably beautiful space. The other interesting thing is it's: a combination of hippies and ranchers. and the he beat the sons and daughters of the hippies and ranchers moved together. They join forces and created this kind of interesting a new type of individual- and that was that was very interesting to see like a quorum quote hippy driving, I'm a grow. Those are, you know, a big mac. You know a big ten truck. You know, I was like honest so interesting. I've ever seen these groups of people in iraqi before so it's it's really.
Well then attorney, and it really is that kind of twin peaks. He feel when you think of people that live off the grid. Normally it's militia men, but now we have a whole other spin on living off the grid and they're, not court members or nazis. You know who this in between the way it works. You know budget hipsters I have friends in California, I know people that grow in California. Some of them have I told me: they've gone to humboldt county to help, trim and live there for a month or two and even with all of their stories I had no idea that there was this underlying issue at murder mount like none of them had ever mentioned. It just thought it was all fun, loving, hippies up there, but how? How naive of me to to think when there is an illegal operation happening, I wonder, is
other places in the united states that have similar. I guess such a large black market going on that. We don't know about and have you come across anything in your travels? I don't know right because it has to be like a fairly large black market, ass. To be indigenous to a certain area whether it's like we pull this thing, from the river, the weather. We grow it in a field you know, so it has to be somewhat regional, suggesting that happen paper. You know, boss, in bank robbers facing the girl. I bank robbers in Boston, I dont know. Let's that such an interesting idea, you know what happened in the deep south florida or whatever as you know, in the board- towns of you know, texas, let that so trusting. I don't really know the one big thing and I don't know
documentary really show this. It has to do with how isolated it is it they call it the redwood curtain and it's very true. Suddenly, your cell phones, don't work the roads are. Horrific and you're suddenly very cut off from the rest of the world. Imagine living in a community where it's three hours for the fire department, were the ambulance to get you imagine what that is going to do to your ethos and tea. Were views on life. you're gonna get a gun. You aren't going to learn how to do things by yourself So I think that's so interesting and in with the cops it's an our or two for backup to arrive. If you get into an issue, so I see why they don't go up there either and the people that we show their kind of you know wacky and arctic
It is somewhat dangerous. There is a lot more dangerous individuals that we didn't show I mean it's not like cartel land. We didn't have that kind of access that cartel land had, but there are criminals of that ilk up there. There are cartels. They may be an offshoot, but there are cartels. There are compounds of russians, but they call boy bulgaria. and these guys come over they are, you know, armed to the teeth, and the thing is: is they'll shoot you and they don't mine. Doing I don't have the mind, but you know there do the ten years and then get out, You know what I'm saying so. I'd get ready, they're ready to go there, ready to open up open fire and they don't really have the same issues that we do they're living in a different those guys are living in a different world. So there is a lot of danger, whether it's the cartel.
As we say, whether it's the bulgarians and whether it be on vietnam that who has very bad ptsd who is who is not in reality, added to society and happens to have an m sixty and you know it, if the wrong person rubs him the wrong way, he is willing to open fire. I think one of my favorite characters was the the kind of drunk guy in the road that was holding the bag of beer, giving his philosophy on things. You know, as this is a very interesting thing, is a little bit kind of a secret as a filmmaker. You know when you, when you're shooting this You know you want it to be as highbrow as possible, right you're like no. No, no. We can't put that guy in there. He he really brings it down. You know he really. He really takes away the credibility of what they're doing, but you know the editors you know and that
it. Like I, I know he's amazing answers like fine put him in. You know what I'm saying like I I was against it now I realize how what an idiot I am and the like know if you have got like that, use it. So, thank god for the two now we have a white box and for some wonderful story, producers who help us get out of wrong way as filmmakers at the well, no matter how much. a straightway story, you wanna deliver. You need some comic relief because it such a downer in such a downer story that this was something like, oh my god, this guy so and that guy's hysterical, and it's amazing, like when you look on twitter, everybody's, like this guy, this guy this guy, this guy, This guy- oh my god, never seen something so funny re. I like her. You know we have today. six months with that guy, where we would be filming and he would come along and say something. I remember
time. I was looking for a location in a garage up in order We need it in the garage like had been cleaned out like twenty years since just completely full of traffic, and I was looking for a place to do it of you and I knocked on the door- and you knows woman, cotta answers and to run around like greece and mud like I am looking to see if I bike shoot here, Well, I don't know we're just right now we're trying to clean it up, and I hear this noise- and I look up and to my left and sitting in the rafters. Is that dude without a shirt on bugging out hard core and I'm like. Ok, I'm just gonna bet walk away from the situation, because obviously there was a lot of drugs going on and it can turn volatile really quickly is so fascinating woman the there was the one kind of hippie guy on the bed and if you look at his clothes it's his career, and dirt and paint and everything in every single home. There is
a house or something that's just been neglected for years it is said that tone of these people are this very disconnected and living on their own on its intel. You go into the town you don't get that sense of society again you're really out there in the sticks. Yeah I mean it it is like being out on the range like a lot of these people. Wouldn't you know, go to town for like a couple of weeks now that being said, when the documentary was over, I invited a couple of my friends to come. Hang out in southern humble it is beautiful. It is amazing, and there are people there were trying to create. The sonoma valley of weed, and they can, because this is an unbelievable, beautiful place, look half an hour where more about this there is a retreat called her but the institute that was a massage school. The nineteen. Seventy may be wrong.
So is there for a while and they it's it's. So beautiful and so amazing and so spiritual. You know we showed the bad, but I gotta tell you. Looking for an amazing vacation, go too humble, like you have to really try to get a murder about you. You know what I'm saying and chances are what you're gonna find easy beautiful Europe's place where there are endless farms where you can go on, but it, but they combine breakfasts. It's just a unbelievably beautiful place with such a rich history, the people meter or fascinating. It's like it's like I came here in nineteen, seventy two and I'm a jazz musician and you know and grow, and I do this and I love it there, That's why I have a humble tattoo. I got. We all got tat. Who is the whole crew, got touches the last night. There's somebody cops shows out. I oh, I saw one day psych alaskan state troopers.
unlike. Why has there been a cop show made about humble, but there was still there was we like we cops or something like that in a came out and so, but the shows like that, you know it's like they. Basically, you know you. I think we me to say it watch the animals in a cage or something like that like that's, that's that's how those shows do what they do. They watch people in work, Nicholas situations react ridiculously, and this our entertainment and I was like me- never ever want to do that. We never want to treat individuals who may be different from us as spectacle, because that's you know that whether humanity and really doesn't really get to know them, and when you get no them their unbelievable people like there's a scene, John riley, who happens to be like one of the guys at the same time, the guy isn't was an air gunnar in vietnam. So here
the guy who was in the side of a huey, kicking off people as they ran to the huey, to throw bombs and he's is tragically tragically scarred for life is piteous he has agent orange is you know, he's got doesnt work anymore, and this guy is volatile. He also, if you pick him up, I believe you could definitely explode with an m sixty. At the same time, he plays unbelievable music on a flute and it's like, but can you watch that per and with a discerning eye. Or can you watch that person with a reality t v? I and I think it's just an attitude of approaching them that that sets the difference. If you know what I mean, it makes them more human and that's even with a title. like murder mountain, we want a persona, thought the location or mountain and not look at the people, and you really focus on the people. There
And I love how you do cut the legend at the at the knee when it comes to like a member dear the killing season. You know we had this out in the desert sort of feel of what's going on out here Why isn't anyone doing anything about it? This myth, those and hearing here we are again and we have these people living off the grid and it takes a very unique individual. to live off the grid. I totally understand that vietnam, that for his lifestyle I get it. I get him and when some it happened in his neighborhood, he got involved and then even distanced himself from the vigilantes. This unstable guys doing there. right thing. Most of you know: I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers an incredible
action of audio books across every genre? I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities. Down experts and as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audio books, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership. I get one title a month to keep and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book anti social about online. extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation. Audible, hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP were text gaeta, BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, bill dot com, slash, J, w p m was so amazing. It right he's doing the right thing with amazing news,
guys, like john riley, there are many of them. There are many vietnam that's up there did. The ultimate irony is that these guys left vietnam. They came back. They were called baby killers when they came back, they had no recourse, they had seen horrifically, there was a complete lack. I think, of integration. That'll help all these other issues and even the hippies it a baby killers needed know what to do with themselves out. A lot of them went off grid and, for example, they the humble and if they found a week, really helped them. You know just live so they start to grow weed and suddenly The united states government comes after them with huge helicopters. What blackhawks and it's like, oh my god, talk about a recipe for disaster. You ve got this guy's completely volatile living off the grid, and suddenly you come after him with a huge helicopter and he is
Just you know, he's going to reach under the bed, he's gonna take out his and sixty, and he is going to just go frigging knots and said I couldn't believe the irony of what was happening to these vigils in that's another thing that I really wish we could have gone into more. We were up there on the mountain at one point with john riley and were driving and he stopped me get up, It goes to do an escape and suddenly he's freaking out and he's like looking around I'm like, what's going on, what's going on and and and he had heard a helicopter right off the top of his head, he completely names the type of look after how many there are what's it doing like he knew, and he just suddenly listen to combat mode and the helicopter was basically over us because it was looking for the vienna grows and onward a mountain, and I remember you to my camera. Man like she jumped She, John and when it was all done, everybody had calmed down my camera. Autonomy is light. You'd like to that was like apocalypse. Now you know
like you, I guess it wasn't just so completely not get caught up in in the emotion of what these guys are going through the constantly we'd, living this war over and over again, when you have the government spending hundreds of millions to fight this, when they could be making billions of taxing it, and here the song the ramifications of the flying and helicopters in having this like slash and burn kind of mentality. What does that, due to the people living there, regardless of whether vietnam, vat or just anyone just person living in the neighborhood. How do you deal with that? And I think, How do we deal as americans, knowing that we ve been at war forever?
over a decade and then you think well, we don't have to look at it, but these people are having to experience it every day. As we say, this was the only I think like more launch against the people? Citizens of the united states that use military equipment that the people one that's the irony is that people want, but at what cost at what cost those mom pops who fought this war? What are they give up in and they gave up their their lives? They gave up their farms and now the tragedy is that these days when this war, you think, ok, we won the war. Now you're gonna take your little mama pop operation and you suddenly gotta come like this huge like wheat farm and it's like now, you're just gonna get overtaxed and euro coca cola getting men and do something or philip morris or is not even to that level. Now now is just in the more mid range, but its leg
You know you're screwed, when the american government tries to sell you back your dreams. I love that that is very true, because thinking about getting into the industry in Missouri, but I'm in africa, or a lawyer, I'm going to have to hire consultants just to keep myself out of prison and is it is it worth it and a lot of people kind of criticized us for like not bringing up tat? The people of color issue or not bringing up the prison issue at its light. Look I understand how that is part of the story, but because a documentary and like I'm looking at this community, you know I'm saying- and you know that was not one allow black people around and you know for those that were we tried to shoot them and, of course they don't want anything to do with its most people didn't want in view of this, we would you know we got more guns made in our face in any way, and so I wish we could have brought up.
all those issues and especially all the marijuana convictions. But you know it's like I'm telling the story of murder mountain and that's the story, so I'm really not going to try and diverge too far is guess what they're so many stories of murder mountain that I don't have time you know on in its You shine a light on this one thing and you telling the story the best you can in your way. I very much enjoyed it. You gave me history of humble county. You gave me- players involved. You gave me a story to follow and then a ripple effect of that story. I think it was perfectly executed. If you, is that some of the characters are boring. Then hey? It's not your fault that your that's your subject matter. You know it's it's I mean I get those criticisms all the time of the podcast as a. Why didn't you bring this up? Well, I didn't yeah. I was talking about this thing and it right you know- and I wanted
I get that point across. You know it's interesting. I guess the weeds story is so big. You know we had no idea, I guessed that it would kind of hit at the same time that, like there's a big malcolm gladwell, article coming What about weed you know came out like last week, so I think it is just all you know. It is a good, perfect storm and thank thank the story gods that that it's it's all happening, you know yeah, who would have thought Missouri of all places, would legalize. If you would have told us very interesting, re re, you know dislike. Who would have thought these hippies were you know, bent spoons planting seeds, would have created this huge industry. I ain't. I live in the midwest, it's very conservative here, I don't know of kansas will ever legalise, but everything about Kansas is legalizing. So what so? Here's the interesting thing, it's good that they do it
now, because the reason why this world was created, this outlaw world was created was because we The idea of making we'd legal or medical was brought up in it, passed in ninety six to have medical marijuana, but the rules weren't very concrete- could have a certain number of plants if you had the medical condition and what happened was created a grave world of what the walls were and that allowed all these kind of illegal speculators. If you will to come in, We grow marijuana under the medical marijuana umbrella, but what they were really doing was growing for the black market you know, and so because they did it in steps it. It allowed a career This opportunity financial opportunity for all these speculators much like the gold rush
You know to come in and to try and make money from there's always a black market. But if you do it right, it works I've never seen anyone smuggle corona or dough sacking over the border right, because it's not financially advantageous to do so now and I know that's a very general, some five summary of it, but if you do it right, the legit people are incentive ized and not de illegitimate or the under the more into the black market and that's totally true. You know I mean I remember you didn't want to speaking. Twenty years ago about like cigarettes, stout came from me. The reservation burst like normal. Then it s like. If cigarettes are everywhere, then just you know a basic and try and buy cigarettes. You know it like you know, smuggling members, something like that. So your view
in the northeast. Isn't it like cheaper to buy cigarettes in jersey than it is in new york? So then do you go across the state line or city limit and get it? You know. I guess you know it's the end, but but but again it's like. So what's that? What's that worth it for savings worth to you. You know what I'm saying so that I think that's the philosophy if its legal in Missouri, then you just incentivize people to take the risk. of driving that we'd from california Missouri and and very interesting for other small. out there. I would love to get more into this here, but I had heard like like by this point. If this you know with all these kind of like written stuff if they see your license plate go from like california, too, to a couple different states and they know your crossing. The country like they're gonna, be looking for
like an and they're gonna, be looking for you to be true, sporting weed, and so apparently, even it's very hard on the smuggling side because of the because of the big brother esque ness of it off. So our freedom to travel gives them probable cause to investigate us, but saying this dead bodies out on this ranch doesn't give them. Okay, got it it's hard to make excuses for what has been happening in the previous administration. I was, I was kind of flabbergasted and there's even stop, you didn't put in the documentary because we felt it was just. You know insult to injury, and so we really wanted to stick with the facts. But again it's like the rule of law for the rule of man. Like you don't do this, you don't investigate this crime because it's too difficult because it probably won't and then conviction.
but you're going to bust this grower. Even though morally you have no problems with people who smoke we'd know it so it became like who is enforcing what justice and whose watching the detectives and who gets to say what's right and wrong. The one sheriff was downy says when you, use, vigilante justice, you you push us out, you push the law, ouch and I think, nobody's pushing in one day. The vigilante justice is happening because there is no law. I thought it was a flawed statement. I dont know yeah yeah, it's definitely slaughter, you know it's it's it's just such a quagmire. You'd, like vietnam itself, what I'm saying. It's just a quagmire where nobody winds and nobody losers and everybody is just fighting somebody else's larger war.
and you know like we now know- Nixon Nixon criminalized marijuana because he was trying to stop the hippies from pope protesting vietnam, and so, though, policies and continue to today. If you want to look at the hypocrisy, marijuana level class, one drug- it is considered of this. Dangerous levels as copyrights and heroin and your life what inside yeah, but that is still true of today, even though no its complete medicinal quality, I find it one of the more a nerd drugs out there. It is, but but what I didn't realize is the message that it sends to. To citizens of the united states that your government doesn't know what its talking about and when you are able to throw out one set of rules.
because those rules you know are wrong. You then, throw out other sets of rules that type of a name, policy allows people who do have bad ideas to then not adhered to. The other things which we know are right wrong, And that's why I find most disturbing it's this consistency all we really want and fairness. You can't get that when you have one agenda being pushed by when administration and then another agenda being pushed by somebody else or one sheriff not force on the law and then the new one does enforce the law and in even in the documentary, a simple clerical error can send a convoy of armed men to your house, you're, totally right and like, and we had filmed at that grow
numerous times so here's it so like were now they would not allow us to like you know, no, where we were going. You know nobody would know until, the morning of that thing was happening and Suddenly there like? Ok, we're gonna go to this place, it's read on and you know, there's no street names but they're like it's right on those the main road there and it's got some signs on it and I'm like guys These guys are fully legal, as this is the place that we are covering and they were You know we were really allowed to say anything, but I was kind of like a guys guys, but they did to their did their defence every our man now has passed through so many hands and others there is so much illegal activity that its dreamily hard to figure out. What's legal and what's not what parcel name is what parcel there's? No way you can figure it out, but you know I was once we pulled up to the spot where the guns blazing.
like all my god, I can't believe like were actually here and there thinking that display the legal. I know that guy that guy showed newspaper work, but you know I first of all I would love to and that that sure ireland is a great great individual and you know he's just doing what the municipality tells him to do and they are in every right to be doing what they're doing, because I can't tell you how many are quickly. Bad grows there are that are leaking gasoline into the ground there doing all these things, so any type of enforcement is good. They ended up get the bulgarians and the guy's off that mountain. I now speak to people in their like yet you know the bulgarians are gone. You know, so, thank god for that. But at the same time I was really happy that happen not because it was negative against police, but because it showed that the system works and it can work, you know, will end the he showed his papers. The cops backed off it's like
Okay, you got pulled over show me your driver's license that you're legal to drive a car. I did ok we'll back off now so it worked. You know that and that's what we not like. You know what I'm saying like that, that it does not have to be lawless, like being always being an hour on the body in clyde Jesse James than it sounds cool, but at the end of the day, you're not believe that long and it's not call you know what I'm saying we weekly romanticize the outlaw, but it doesnt work and practicality works in the movies. So I was really happy be that we were able to show that the system does work and what was not. It was amazing that the cops were like a that was the first legal growth. Racine on river man. This is up. You know, what's crack one open, this is great now the guys on the other side were like holy shit. That was the first time the cops over It is a waterway yeah, and they did a name
surely had this moment of right, everything's cool here, and it worked, and I appreciated that hopefully- the tone and the atmosphere of murder mountain will become one were they don't have to send a convoy of guys with guns to go, investigate they can just send one car and its a convoy of swat team, guys armed to the teeth, it's maybe even a city official. They just goes up dances, hey here's, the complaints. I just want you to fix them as it supposed to be, but you know I mean, but the crazy thing is getting back to the original thing is before last year. They couldn't do that, and before last year they wouldn't be knocking on the door of of a of course. I use the word in bulgarian as was turned, but you know a bunch of like gun, jordan, crazy. You know who might adopt a virus. and a tragedy. You know law enforcement. We need law enforcement as much as we need growers as much as we need weed. you know we need all these things
we all get along in coexist together and that funny enough was the original concept of what the hippies were trying to create? They just You know they were trying to create their own society where things can coexist and maybe maybe now they can, believe me, the latter, to be enough of a conversation that Latvia can bet. It's it's we'll be uneasy transition. I kind of like three just finished, with they're gonna wanna, take up your whole day there's a practised on management. Yeah! No out, that's perfect! It's it's gotta, be it a transition and hand over. So I love it. Thank you so much for talking to me it's it's over! is a pleasure and honour to have you on the show and see me. Thank you
it feels like we're living in the golden age of scammers from an adele v to the tinder swindler. These stories are almost impossible to believe, but they're amateurs next to Zubair sickly from one dirty and pineapple street studios comes the new true crime, podcast persona, the french deception, the untold story of one of the greatest criminals of the twenty first century, a man who conned the world's most powerful billionaires corporations and even religious leaders out of hundreds of millions of dollars. They all thought they were smart enough to spot a con, but they had no idea dealing with. Do you hear the full story? Follow persona the french deception wherever you get your pike ass or you can listen early on amazon, music for early and ad free by subscribing to wondering, plus it apple pod gas, for the wonder, YAP.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.