« The Generation Why Podcast

Oklahoma City Bombing Pt. 1 - 355

2019-12-22

April 19, 1995. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. A Ryder truck was parked outside of the Alfred P. Murrah building in Oklahoma City before 9am on that Wednesday morning. Inside the truck was a homemade bomb that, after detonation, destroyed the building and ended the lives of 168 people, including nineteen children. More than 600 people were injured. What motivated the bombers to target this federal building? Join us as we discuss the OKC bombing and Timothy McVeigh, a former Gulf War soldier whose life once looked promising but who later opted to start a war against his own government.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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for the easiest way to get more. How an extent vacations so earn you ve read a book. You ve just filled your head up full of this eyes actions this big v in idea log. Where do we start with this april? Nineteen ninety. Ninety five oklahoma city, Oklahoma, a man parks, a writer, rental truck outside of the borough federal building he steps out of the truck. There is actually people coming and going in and out of the building, the building houses, offices for social security, HUD, a t f and numerous army recruiting offices, a man steps out he's got a military staff
hair cut, nobody thinks anything about it. They just think I must be a sergeant or somebody who's, picking something up or dropping something off and he's walking away and then at nine o, two a m that truck explodes it's. A very powerful explosion, cheers off the front of the building causing about a third of the building to collapse. In on itself. It kills a hundred and sixty eight people, including nineteen children. There was a day care about fifty feet from where this bomb detonated inside the building miraculously six children and that day care survived. It doesn't take long before a person connected to this bombing is arrested, but at the time this person was apprehended
not because they were being tracked, but because of a violation and they didn't have a license plate on their car. But at this point right after the bombing news outlets media, everybody is talking about how this is a foreign terrorist action. This is the work of a middle eastern terrorist group. It has all the characteristics of pre out. Qaeda, essentially bombing in terrorism. A man is pulled over in his car on interstate thirty, five near billings Oklahoma. Eighty miles north of oklahoma city. His car was missed,
It's license plate as the state trooper asks him for his driver's license. The man will reach for his wallet and that's when the trooper notices a bulge under his windbreaker, and he asks the man to step out and asks him if he or she has a pistol on him. The man says he does and he does not have a permit to he said weapon, so the officer will end up arresting this man. There are the same as an investigation into this, and one of the things that I guess you could say was a major clue, major piece of evidence. We, as a serial number, on a truck axel, so was from the truck that housed the bomb. It turns out that it master writer truck
they have been granted in Kansas. A couple of days earlier, the rudder truck had been rented from elliot's body shop, injunction city. Oh of course, fbi agents are really interested to go and talk to the people that work there. They interview the employees who give descriptions of two men, Andy truck, actually rented under the name bob clean. Now, that's all they have to work with. So they start scouring junction city and Canvassing the area asking any and every hotel. If somebody had stayed there with a writer rental truck, may finally find dreamland hotel. They said how long ago was it just a day before? Where did they stay room? Twenty five, who did they check in ass timothy mcveigh? Now
this point. The description of the two men at the rental truck shop- one was a white man with crop hair and the other one was sort of ambition. was looking man with a sports cap on now the idea, was it was a middle eastern, looking man that possibly fled the scene. It's a foreign terrorist attack, so the investigators and looking at these two individuals and thinking well that guy in the cap might be our guy. We don't know who this military hairstyle guy is, but we're going to figure it out police release sketches of two men, John doe we're one and John doe number two in their hoping that someone, the public, will know who these men, are John doe number. One is obviously timothy mcveigh, John doe number two, possibly
middle. Eastern terrorist is what they're going for that was April twentieth april, twenty first, this is two days after the bomb The authorities arrest timothy mcveigh? He looks a lot like the sketch John doe number one. They didn't have much time where he was going to be released on the other charges. You know for not having his plate so He's sitting in jail for the stock from earlier having a firearm on him and once they found his name from the hotel room, story. They do a search on the database and are like oh he's, been arrest he's sitting behind bars. We need to get their real fast now that they have timothy mcveigh, it's not long before they have another name, and that's terry nicholls
They thought terry nicholls might have been the other man in this sketch, but as it turns out, John doe number two happened just be some random customer. That was in that trunk, until place and they just miss remembered him being there at the same time as timothy mcveigh, that's kind of scary back, I kind of lucked out because he came forward is like that's the cap, I'm wearing its ball cap. You know, that's me, but I dont know these guys. I swear, but they find out terry nicholls name, pretty quick. And they know that he has a history with timothy mcveigh. They hold both terry nickels and his rather james. I'm material, witness war, It's so what I like about this investigation and the way that it's progressing is back at the site. You know, even into the night of the day of the bombing, they were still pulling people out of the wreckage they were trying,
to save lives, but then the investigators are trying to piece together what happened in just within two days. They have a strong suspect and then, They have another person who might be connected. So it's a fast, moving investigation, the kind of lucked out, because someone just happen to pull timothy mcveigh over and arrest him. He could have kept going day, fine, terry nicholls, but initially they think nicholls lives up in michigan, so they raid his house there, but brother James is the only one living there and he informs them that Mary is actually living in kansas, so within hours does the power the government they have agents everywhere they raid his place down there and when they raid terry Nichols house, they find receipts for fertilizer. They find a cordless drill and a calling card.
When they start looking into the calling card, they find that there has been phone calls made to chemical companies. Racetracks and another man named Michael Fortier on April twenty there there was a memorial service for victims of the oklahoma city bombing. Then president bill Clinton spoke may forth. At this point, rescue workers have ended their search for victims. and are going into body recovery mode, the bodies of christie, roasts us virginia thomson and Alvin justice, who were all the buildings credit,
in remain buried and unstable rubble, but the death count still stood at one sixty eight. It was leaked that timothy mcveigh was the Oklahoma city bomber and the press and the people gathered around while they walked him out of the building and permits at this point that everyone goes from This is a foreign threat, a foreign terrorist too. This is one of our own. How could this man have done this to fellow americans and it's a shock to everybody wherever at the time that was the narrative that was going on was it's not a foreign born terrorist The home grown one. It was shocking. It was like no way it is still hard to stomach, but it felt like people thought this was
worse you're, being killed by someone from your own country, your own community, sort of the no troops scotsmen argument- and it's no true scotsmen- would do this or that. So therefore, there not a scotsman and here we have. No true american would have done this. How could this be so is not an american there. They exactly that's what they ll turn around and do is renounce him. although he was born, raised and trained by our american government. On may tenth of ninety ninety five day, formally large, terry nicholls in connection with this bombing. They fell at that point that they had enough to show that he was part of this plot? Now I did mention earlier that his brother James was arrested as well, but the charges similar dropped. Terry did live with his brother on his property on his farm from time to time
so is not surprising that they thought that terry was living with james, but at the time like you said, he was in kansas just in you mentioned earlier, that there were three people that were on accounted for. This is just the thoroughness of the recovery effort there, trying to recover every single person that they can from the wreck. Age living or dead, and I twenty nine. What did they find? They finally recovered the bodies of thomson justice in Thus now they no longer have any more missing. They no longer have any more questions about how many fatalities they have suffered here so now that we have this atrocity this horrendous event. We know it's one of our own. We know that this was a domestic terrorist people, always
want to blame obama, a foreign action. You know they don't like us. we're americans. They don't like us because of our freedoms whatever. But how do you explain when it's one of your own? How did Timothy They end up here. Oh what we know about timothy mcveigh was. He was born April, twenty third nineteen sixty eight in sixty eight new york. He As the second of three children of mickey and william mcveigh, yeah, two sisters, the elder sister was patty and the younger sister was Jennifer his parents, separated in nineteen, four and ended up divorcing in nineteen. Eighty six. You know it said that the parents were just different people, as he got older and their kids got older. They grew more apart when they separated timothy mcveigh chose to stay with his father bill and I don't know that he was particularly close with his dad, but it was said that he had
Virtually no real relationship with his mother, Timothy mcveigh, early on was kind of a scrawny kid. His dad was kind of a lanky guy tall because he was kind of weak looking he would get picked on by other kids. It started this thing in, and I've kind of got it to where you hate bullies. You can't stand it, that's something that stuck with him for a long time as you move through his life, though he got into computers. He got into star trek here as you name it, he got into the fantasy staff, even using commodore, sixty four You remember this computer, I do I do are dating ourselves. I had an atari two thousand six hundred myself, but yeah yeah commodore sixty four was a computer back in the day. I guess yeah back when, like people had atari for gaming, they were compete, who that we be sort of like the pc gaming, and it was comers sixty four and heap
so good at it. He used it to hack into installations like federal installations, which is pretty amazed. It shows you his early skill. Computers became a real thing and he had two of them at once. This is back in the floppy disk days with oregon trail and the little turtle thing that you can punch in mapping points, and it would make little triangle staff so he had friends and he would have them for a little while and then his family move, his David move and his mother would move back further. While the move away and so he never really settled in with anybody and as he got older, he became interested in girls, the first girl never really got interested in. They started to date, a bit then was introduced to her family. They liked him and he
treating her well. She was treating him well, but then, all of a sudden he broke it off, and that would be really the last time he had a girlfriend. I'm not even sure you could call her a girl. Friend, because it wasn't very long lasting, he was a teenager. They also He just didn't know how to talk to girls. It made things awkward, whereas you know when he would just talk about girls and a general sense. He would say. Oh, he was interested in california girls, things like that. He loved fast cars. In fact, cars were probably one of the reasons why he ended up dropping his interesting computers because he would get car eventually and then you'd want to put some money into it in a soup it up a little bit. He could get that money by selling this computers he'd gotten in trouble. he actually got a sysadmin alert on his commodore. Sixty four after hacking into a government installation letting them know that they knew he was there. That's the story, so computers drop
off. He seems to put less time into things like comic books and fi. he's because he realized that. was a waste of money. He had spent a lot of money, a comic books, and eventually you want to sell them, probably for money for his car, something Emily went to sell asylum, the guy that had sold them. The comic books only off m like less than eighty dollars for the whole collection when he had sunk more than a thousand into him? So Well, isn't that how that works? Have you have you ever been to gamestop? Well, I think the idea here is is that some people are collectors and they'll. Think, oh, I just need to have one good one and I'll have a lot of money, but honestly it's pretty much worth whatever will pay you. So you can have a good sized collection, but you may not get anything. Out of it. But that was a lesson he learned. He didn't want to have this life where he wasn't getting something
back out of what he had invested. So it started to change his mind, set now the most roof. Oh person in his early adolescents and is ten years was his grandfather, his dad's father, Ed. Now, admin they taught him about guns about hunting. You name really gave him this sense of outdoor zinus and he would love to spend time with them back of his entire family, that's probably the person who love the most, was his grandfather. Ed by that's also when he started thinking about survival ism and he started Bring about did they have water on hand in case something happened and did they have a bunker somewhere to go to school? Is a proper now will end if you ve watched these shows the papers they make. It seem like doomsday could come at any time, which is true, but if you live your life that way it's a paranoid
Is it not there's no fun in it? None but they're prepared yeah. There are always prepared the way I look added is. If you have more people, more guns and you can go take over the prepper is a little insight, listen and go get whatever you if you're out of stock. But that's just how I see the does toby in future. Now his father and his grandfather, hard workers from what they get tell with Timothy was that they would like the same for him by despite having a scholarship and, despite his dad, putting forward money to go in college. He didn't stay very long, the way Timothy, but at it was it's just not for me, it's not working out. He didn't like being told. Okay, you have to take math courses. take history courses. He wanted to learn a real skill that he could go and get a job with, so
It's disheartening to him. But that's reality. That's how life is. That's why I dropped out of college, because I was like I'm not going to use most of this. You know I just wanted to take the classes. I knew would get me through. Give me a job give me hired, but they all want that document, that piece of paper that says bachelor's degree or whatnot on it, and To get that, you got to do a lot more for many people, myself included just having that document. That degree is pretty cool but yeah I mean what do you do with? It It's still. It's a lot of effort to get there now moving ahead, timothy mcveigh, lies. He wasn't going to go to college that wasn't for him, but he could join the military because he loves guns,
and he loves going into an environment where he doesn't have to worry about where his meals are coming from or what his day is going to be like, where he's going to be dictated to and his whole day is regimented for him, and when you get to boot camp jackson, they break you down and build you back up into the What they want you to be a soldier, yes, and it really defined mcveigh for awhile. And, of course, if you read the book american terrorist by loomis Well, he goes into great detail about boot camp and about mcveigh experiences there. Now this isn't to build mcveigh up as this american hero. He becomes this terrorist, so few goethe. Rude, the boot camp. We go through his military life and his successes as part of a broadly fighting vehicle command and his accuracy with a right with a gun. This is someone who is really embracing military life. We have this idea,
but the military is Emily, go out to combat and you're fighting for a nation, so it in the united states. We have these wars with iraq and in The new nineties, yeah, is was eighties early nineties cause. I was still in high school. We had operation desert storm right, the gulf war, the gulf war and so timothy mcveigh, now being a member of the military was sent over there, he witnessed combat first hand and he actually took law Waves, I remember the quote from him saying that he shot and rocky shot him in the head knew he had killed the man, and at that moment he felt nothing. he didn't even understand why he had done it. You didn't under and why he was there in Iraq I understand why the american government could be there could dictate to other people what they can do with their lives.
I guess it became disillusioned that point right, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that when he got over there and engaged in combat for the first time, the united, aids military with so much more powerful than the rock military, that these battles really weren't resulting in the american casualties, The only american casualties are really happening because of what they call friendly fire or accidents and then the other thing I think the affected him was like there would be an entrenchment or something and u s military wood, fire a shot. It. They had a moment where everyone in there I forget how many people it was humming soldiers, but they all stood up with their hands up and surrendered. it turned out that allow these soldiers did even know who they were fighting didn't know: the they didn't know if it was egyptians, Eliza was the americans. They were likely to have a chance, So a lot of them, which is give up there, is also
story that he was being told now you need a shoot to kill and he was like, but these people aren't prepared it's not even fair yeah. He felt bad. This is where, with any of these, mad bombers we've been talking about you know later on. We know he gets in with these white supremacist groups, but he's feeling remorse feeling like what are we doing to this foreign nation to these foreign people? There's no hate in his heart for these people and he's not wanting to pull the trigger because he doesn't understand. Why do He's told about what saddam Hussein has been doing and he doesn't like it and ok, you got a point But why am I not just duking it out with him? Who are these other people, so he obviously on one hand, a very good soldier which is backed up by all the Foundations awards he ended up getting on the other hand, his brain,
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calm gin, why code jen? Why so is tour? Is over and I wrap these kind of searching, for something to do. What does he do her timothy mcveigh is turning out to be guy in search of a home for his heart and his head. The only group out there that he has a place to put these things are militia groups widespread. mrs groups, because they're the ones that are preaching about how the government is come, for you. You can't live the life you want. Your freedoms are going to be taken away and if you won't give them up, they'll come for you and they'll take her wife, it's a scary world that he's looking at so because he's still relatively young he's still thinking about his life. What does he want to do for a job Does he want to continue in the military because the military is prepared to you know, make his dream come true One of the dreams that he had going in the military was become a green beret. Timothy Mcveigh said I want to be in
two forces because I want to be in the field offers. He had been getting we're all office work. We want to move in with the big guys now he didn't want that. He wanted to be outside again at mcveigh had taught him the outdoors he loved it. He felt one with nature and felt it was real, So they finally said we're not let you try out for the green berets and he went in fact. That's the crazy thing he hath arranges own travel. but he end up going there, and this is right after the war, the war didn't last, very long. Did it just says? No, I mean we pretty much took off. In the first two weeks, but then we had skirmishes and insurgencies and civil wars for years, because that's what happens and so he went off to try out for the green berets and it didn't work out. Even though this was the guy that was always marching when you didn't have to march. He was always ready to go in the morning. That's one thing I read in american terrorist was he had a uniform just for the czech when you have to
up in the morning. He only use that uniform to stand in for the check that they do when they get you up. It's called us static display and he would be considered what we call locked in tight means he's locked in and you have a uniform. That's just perfectly pressed or you have your locker- that's just static, it doesn't change, so it always passes presentation. It always passes the drill sergeant or whoever is looking at an inspecting it, and then you have this tiny little bag of stuff that you are, live out of, but everything else is spotless imperfect. It doesnt work out because he has to do these different drills here,
the march for so long. He has to do so. Many push ups. He has to swim for so long in his gear he's worn out. I mean you think of the navy seals you think of delta force, you think of all these special operation groups, the green berets, it's not a joke not a joke. I don't know what the the statistics are for the green berets, but any of these special forces- groups like a ninety percent wash outright like not very many people get to do it. So he why out he tells them is not ready and he feels like he rushed it. And so there like war, will let you try out again some time, but I don't I don't know that's legit. I don't know. If that's like we'll have you back? Don't cars will call you either way, though his mind he'll tellingham, the government's bad. Now, he leaves the military. He can't find a job for what
understand. He really thought that having a decade military career like he had and being a hero when he got back from where he had saved a man's life. He had actually patched him up and he had disobeyed a commanding officers orders. To save this man's life cause. He said I know more about the field medic stuff than you do when he was in. He could've been in trouble over that he saved a man's life end up getting a bronze star, amongst other things, he thought that was going to help him. He thought when he got back, he could find a job and that it didn't work out. No and that's what sucks is especially back in the ninth these computers weren't that big of a deal, the skills that you learned in the military back then didn't translate well to the private sector They can tell you all they want. You know, yeah. Everyone wants military background yeah.
It looks good on erasmus, but you gotta have some hands on experience or some sort of skill set, that's applicable to the real world and according to him it was the lack of a degree. That's what hurt him, so he couldn't get a computer job. He was trying to find a job that wasn't like what his dad work. He didn't want to work. Work in a factory or anything like that, because you thought it would be too boring. In the end he had to go back to what he knew I mean before he entered the military he was working as a security guard is no. Honor in that you know, he's not a big dog. No one looks adamant, says, while your great, in fact, There is a mention in american terrorist where he goes out to practice at a gun range with three fellow security guards, and he was embarrassed by how poorly they able to shoot and he's like this is what I'm working with my team. Yes,
it's just disillusionment after disillusionment. Now, I'm not trying to put the blame on anyone, but Mcvay here now. Remember I how it was for you justin When I got out of high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do was. As you know, I joined the military when I was in high school I joined as a seventy four charlie telecommunications. I do not regret, joining the military. I think it served a lotta purposes, but the job I signed up for was obsolete. Ten years before I signed up for an I learn stuff on a teletype just like a typewriter at the cable coming out the back windows. Ninety five is out at this time and I'm on a typewriter talk about disillusionment like what am I doing. This is ridiculous. I have just left civilian life where I was in a chat room, and now I'm setting up a typewriter with a cable. So people can.
Chat with each other over a typewriter. I mean I get it, but I didn't let it get to me, and this is the thing he is hearing this rhetoric. He is reading these books saw the same logical path in his mind. So he'd left the military in december of nineteen any one. he got home moved in with his dad again and was doing security guard work. I don't think he was comfortable there. Kid essentially move down already now he's back with his dad he's, not making a lot of money, his he's, not realising any of his dreams. At this point. In fact, even though he has a problem with the, u S, government and he doesn't feel like he can a soldier anymore. It was much more rewarding than the life he had in nineteen. Ninety two so his life is not going well and he thinks I need to have my own place also
is it this time where he starts really getting vocal about how he feels about the world and so he'll start writing letters to newspapers. He, wants to go on rants about taxes and politicians, and you know the threats against people's personal freedom and you know we're advocates for the freedom of the individual. Absolutely I would hate to admit that I might agree with some of these ideas, but that's it. It's just hey pupil the individual, you protecting everybody, but as we know, the government likes to circumvent those kind of laws and constitutional rights Mcveigh is feeding right into that that rhetoric right into that conspiracy right into their come after us One of the particular incidents involved a letter that he wrote to a new york representative. Who is a Democrat. He was
set, because there was a woman who was arrested for carrying mace in the letter They a he said, police can't. always be there to protect you oh she's, just expected to go unprotected and then hopefully nothing bad happened. he was incense about it. I would be to actually I used to carry pepper spray one hour escape border, because people would always jump out and try to beat me up. I'm like you know, I'm just doing my fang and I'm gonna defend myself to get so incense die right, a big angry letter, send it off in the mail some of them. Is he would write. Had titles such as america is in decline? Do we have to shed blood to reform the current system little foreshadowing for you, mcveigh, just didn't, seem to hit it off with people. Really. He had felt soldiers in the military who, I guess you could say, started to have some issues with him.
when he was in the military to bring this up now, because we need to explain how there's a decline with mcveigh, he had risen to the top and the military. But while he's even still there he's start to really immerse himself in the turner diaries and some other literature which very racist, very separatist, very anti government very paranoid, and he can do nothing. try to tell everyone else about it. He even where these for a year had joined the coup klux clan now morning to mcveigh. He didn't realize right away how racist they were. You not complete ignorance, something else. as paranoia didn't. He think that you had some sort of implant, some sort of chip implanted in them or something
I thought. Maybe the government was tracking him via a microchip in his, but going back the Google plan again, it's that group. That's telling white men that you're in danger that the world is coming down on you. Your way of life will be over its staff paranoia, the fear, the government group is telling him that he's like right on brothers right so It doesn't matter how racist they are. Timothy mcveigh is latching onto groups that are speaking his language. Other issues. popping up. There is a woman he worked with for a while tat. He was really interested in. He would start. I and chat her up, but she didn't like him that way. She was not interested in him romantically. I think that was The last time he became interested in pursuing a partner- or he was rejected, and now he's given up, not gonna, try to date, women anymore, because there are
awful because they rejected me. I'm sure some of you are familiar with those kinds of statements and we call that in cell yes, involuntarily a bit. The other thing that he was doing was an this isn't a surprise, because anybody whose kind of on the downhill, their sliding they'd and to get in more trouble and for timothy mcveigh. It was gamble and it was always this idea that I just need to have one good day. Gambling and I'll be its chasing that dream its chasing. That dopamine fix its that thrill in its I'm, so deaf brit, I'm willing to throw money at the worst bed. So let's talk a bit about major events that cause timothy mcveigh to take his belief in this,
ro gun, antigovernment culture that he was embracing so the next level. Well, I think that the incident at ruby ridge is probably the first, I guess a point or event flashpoint if you will and we covered this event- previous episode. This is where randy weaver, who was a christian identity. He was a white. mrs and separatist. He is approach I a federal agent where he is asked to saw off a shotgun just under the legal limit, because they want to entrap him essentially and then leverage that for him to turn on his fellow white supremacist group and therefore they can infiltrate this group, but they didn't understand, was right. he wasn't that involved with the group. He was just more anti government, so when they get him too,
saw shock on and then say. Ok, you did something wrong: we're gonna arrest. You now Randy gave them the finger. Back to his cabin with his wife and kids. It took up arms against the government, doesn't turn out well and even non white supreme, even people that are totally involved with the situation can look at and say that could have been handled better This was a rallying cry for the white, aryan nation, the white supremacist militia groups like look? He can and own guns, and he can't practice his own religion. Can't live is like the way wants exactly and the government will come and they'll kill you if you don't give in to them and that's the way make they looked at it. The next incident is the one that we think, and I think many people think pushed him over the edge and caused him to go.
To extremist mode, whereas before it you know before it looked extreme to us, but he took it to another level. Now was waco texas, the siege on the branch to video compound. Now we covered this episode also previously to very early, episode and I wish- or I don't know if I wish we could do it over, but there's a lot more. I know about this situation now. For those that don't know the brain, the video ends, I were led by David crash, who was not that stable stay end, but this group of people they were actually very diverse. There were different mix of people races, all kinds that were on this compound. It was not
a racist group by any stretch of the imagination. They had fully automatic weapons, they dealt with arms and what not? They were preppers the government and like that, and after a very long stand off, the government decided to raid the compound, now there was a lot of talk about the government sending in here gas and then that ignore eating and burning down the compound. But since then it's had a proven that
remainder, eight thousand and ninety people, or at least a group of them, were dousing the whole place in gasoline ready to set it on fire when the atf agent came in. That is not how it looks when you see this rate, it looks like the government shot and killed a bunch of people and then set the place on fire and said we're done. That's going to really incite the masses. That's going to rally people against the government. Now. I again think that waco could have been handled in a much better way I think they could have gone in way before without guns knock on the door. Just talk to David, but if I had a government always works one at the time. I believe, after had gone down, and there is a death toll and things were being reviewed even. Some in the government were saying yeah, not our best luck. This was not where the way we should have handled it must have
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Calm, slash gwp, there's criticism, mumble sides, but for some of them They or any one else who has a problem of the government. They look and they say you're the big bully you're come in and exerting your strength and your power over people that you could have just left alone? They weren't hurting anybody, but they broke some law that you didn't like and you have to pursue it to the bitter end. The tf was the driving force behind waco, so they become the jack booted thugs of, government that Mcvay hates that the white supremacist group hates even the in r Reyes, calling them out because they're the alcohol, tobacco and firearms division so they're, the ones that are going to come and get your gun, Now, there's a connection here between
these incidents and the federal building in Oklahoma city. So the way it's understood is that the ruby ridge incident, the sniper there, who had targeted, randy weaver release his family, was named lawn whore, Yuki and timothy mcveigh took it upon himself to try and encourage other people to go after this man, and he was writing to him. Personally. saying things like what goes around comes around essentially putting a price on his head. Pudding hit out on him. He was threatening his life in the other tie in here is They looked at a lot of buildings to bomb. They looked in tulsa, they looked in dallas, but they ended up on building in Oklahoma city, because there was an eighty s office there so turns out that going after an individual didn't see, like it would do the trick for him. Then he stopped
talking with terry nicholls about targeting a building, because in a what's going to get them the audience here, The government is not going to sit up and take notice. Unless there is a body count, they can always build a new building, but a body count the only way to get their attention or to get a message across is you need to hurry them where hurts the most. So their message is: the government needs to back off respect the citizens and when preserve our way of life, and they think for some reason that bombing of federal building with hundreds of people inside of it that they'll get the attention of the government. Well, you know what jefferson you bomb, a federal building, you'll, get the attention government but they're not going to be asking you. How do you feel today and you're not going to get the ball
king of the people going. Oh yeah the government's evil and you just killed a bunch of innocent people that probably had nothing to do. With whatever your issue was so there are people that timothy mcveigh knew he had things in common with these- are people that he met in the military. One of them was Terry Nichols. He also met a guy named Michael fortier and they all have There are similar political viewpoint, while some guys he would talk to about the turner he's needs a yet. You can keep your racist bullshit. These other people would say, oh and check this out hanno. They would feed into the discussion you reach, after five, because this is what really resonated with me.
It is my understanding that Terry nicholls new, even more than mcveigh, about this stuff. So it's kind of like in talking with these guys. He finally formed these relationships that they weren't healthy and we keep referencing. This book called the turner diaries. This book is essentially how to form a revolution: how to be a terrorist and how to bill. The bomb they literally right, it out paint a picture of what you need to do to build a truck bomb because they do it in the book but getting the ingredients or all the parts to this bomb is not easy These things are highly regulated, so what the things that he would need for his bomb were blasting caps. So timothy mcveigh visit a construction site and
call them. I was like a rock worry where they used explosives to bust up to the rocks and had a Look into a storage locker and got all this stuff They were also making large purchases, of ammonium nitrate and at first when they were doing they were using it to sell to other militia types, but then they started collecting it for their own purposes. So essentially its fertilizer, sweat farmers, you so this isn't that big of a deal, but it still regulated because it can be used as a bomb. Now the turner diaries they use. I guess so, maybe fuel oil of some type, but mcveigh wants to ramp this up. So instead he gets nightrobe methane racing fuel. Now. Remember that calling card they found it was phone calls to chemical
companies and racetracks so now is posing as hey in a race, my formula car whatever his racing car is- and I need this high in gasoline to do that, but he needs it for his bomb while their collecting these thing Is there going on a little anti government tour of the united states right? I visiting the sight of ruby ridge visiting the sight of waco even going to area fifty one or roswell all the conspiracies at the government's coming after us, and just reinforcing this. This idea September thirteenth, nineteen, eighty four, is when Timothy mcveigh allegedly visited a low, hame city and this is an area where there was a lot of white supremacist group activity.
There is talk that he was participating in a series of robberies with a guy from that area. Just like in the book you going, you rob, you see and then you can use the profits from that to fund your revolution also in nineteen. Ninety four. It just happened that a federal salt weapons ban, went into effect, which you can imagine irritated the hell out of timothy mcveigh. Who was known to have all kinds of gun, sir. The Brady was signed. This was the rallying cry again of look we're right. They are coming to take your guns away so because of this federal assault, weapons ban, which we know Timothy mcveigh loved, a our fifteen's. He loved all kinds of firearms. This really to him was the final nail.
It says, though waco told him he needed to start preparing and the federal sir weapons ban, told them. You are on the right path You start moving more quickly on this now bacco chamber just getting louder. This is what happens with any hate groups or any groups like ones on facebook, where you're in this echo chamber. This confirmation buys you all hate. This one thing and then it's like they're just egging each other on till one of them commits a violent act, so what's happening, although Timothy doesn't need to be egg dawn, he's already planning it. This bill is just a catalyst suggested timothy mcveigh is putting together his bomb. He has procured a rider truck to put the bomb and he's had some help. Now there will be
well who will say that there were more people helping em, but for the purposes of our episode for right now, let's just say it's timothy mcveigh, terry nickels and Michael Fortier, let's get into their feelings leading up to the bombing. The actual bombing- or I think it's said Michael had the least involvement. He was part of the planning, but once the little
thai government tour started in the bomb building started Michael shied away. Terry nicholls, though, was very much involved with the planning and building of the bomb it was April eighteenth and they drove their truck to the jury state park to assemble the bomb which took several hours. I think, up to four hours. That's when terry decided that this was a good idea. Innocent people were going to die. I think that's when it became real, terry ike up until that point he was just a talker.
And he didn't realize that he was a with a true believer such as mcvay, and so he told the vase like. I don't want to do this, but at that point Timothy said I will kill you and your entire family. Now, if you question, if this argument, if this fight actually broke out later on Timothy will actually say, terry helped me under ass. He gives terry and out saying now he helped me, but it was under duress because threatening him. I would think Timothy would really bother. Maybe would these two men had backed off at at least the last minute, and this was all him. Show at that point. There is evidence that timothy mcveigh could have done that because the things he had done his pass was he had written a twenty three page letter to a childhood friend to. Let him know that they were parting ways, essentially, because it was
it was him versus the government, and blood would have to be spilled and he said in the letter pray. It's not your blood telling someone. That you're, not gonna, be friends anymore, because you're going to war with the government. I think this is this is not turning out well, anger. issues yeah disillusionment, think about it. So Terry Nichols a man that he had trusted. Implicitly, they spend a lot of time. Together he was teaching timothy mcveigh things. He was telling him how he could live a better life, essentially one of the things that Technical did after he got divorced. He went to the philippines to get a wife, and this is important because Timothy mcveigh was like yeah whim, they're terrible. They don't do anything for you. You know, despite all your trying, they're, not there for you, you can't you can't have a girlfriend, it's impossible. You can't get married. Women are selfish this and that oh wait, maybe
go overseas to get a wife because the more compliance we just talked about that in the north hollywood. She being one of the guys went to russia or somethin to get a wife of cop they're. All the same, so I believe it of terry nickel, saying am having second thoughts about this and make them who is all in on the bombing, is looking at him like what you can't back out. What are you talking about this? is what we're doing this is our mission in mcveigh doesn't have a family mcveigh doesn't have to support or provide for any one scan nothingness. is now he had a relative. Getting married, I think, was a cousin and he was did you go the wedding and he said I'm out of here. He didn't want part of his family. He left his family behind and essentially in the only person, even tried to string along
after that was his younger sister. He started trying to fill her head at some point of all these crazy ideas he had and he got to her a bit we'll talk about it in a little while, but I mean Yeah he's really depended on terry nickels and when tyrannical start to show some cracks. That was probably unacceptable and I I could totally believe him threat. They carry nicholls, that's not to give him an out, because, if you're planning and helping to put together a bomb, that's capable of killing hundreds of people a few, Ok, I'm not giving me out, I'm just saying things can change and people can have second thoughts and for the
and whose all in and gung ho about the mission seeing that develop, that's not good for them and they will have a problem with it. I guarantee it. This is part one of the oklahoma city bombing timothy mcveigh episode, stay tuned for part. Two
the.
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Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.