« The Generation Why Podcast

Oklahoma City Bombing Pt. 2 - 356


This is Part Two of our Oklahoma City Bombing coverage. In this episode we talk about McVeigh's life, the trials, and give our thoughts on this devastating act of domestic terrorism.

Happy Holidays, everyone. We'll be back in January of 2020.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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They had also obtained the detonation cord and it was all sketched out by Timothy a he had his own notes. You could say about. He wanted this thing constructed. He actually I get soup cans out of the kitchen and uses them as Fifty five gallon drums to show the other two men how he's going to construct it later He stole the explosives and blasting caps from a locker in Kansas. He also it's more ammonium nitrate, so this cordless drill that they found was traced back to a burglary that they had committed and the tool marks from the drill match that on a padlock one more piece of evidence tying these guys back to the bombing, and he was storing these things that he stole in storage, lockers october, twenty first nineteen. Eighty four,
he disguised himself as a biker and bought almost thousand dollars worth of natural methane racing fuel. So putting all this stuff together, he's got exactly what kind of currencies for this bomb now. At this point he needs a finish up by getting prepared. He needs the getaway vehicle he needs to have weapons, just in case he gets confronted by law enforcement and on november fifth, he and Nichols robbed. A firearms dealer in arkansas, stealing weapons cash. ammunition price metals and coins december sixteenth of nineteen. Eighty four is when they're casing that federal building the Alfred p Murrah, federal building in Oklahoma city and his case, it with Michael Fortier. They've looked at.
Many other buildings and many other cities, but it was really the a f office at this building that they wanted to tar and I'm sure, with his disillusionment of the military there being multiple recruiting offices in the same building was just an extra bone. Form we started the episode by talking about it, explosion outside the federal building which destroyed he's the third of it immediately. You had said how they spent multiple hours, putting the bomb together in the back of this writer truck. They use barrels filled with a mixture of millennium nitrate, fuel and explosives before they get to the building is actually a security camera footage of him stopping across the street from an apartment, complex and then there's more footage of him. Adam
donalds. This is all right before nine a m, so they have footage of timothy driving this truck parking it. getting out walking around goin mcdonald's and then driving it to the building with multiple witnesses. Seeing him leave the truck walk away, though he actually walked away very slowly. Just like nothing happened, and everyone was thinking. You just parked your truck. They expected him to walk into the building and steady walks off, gets around the corner and that's when he starts running cause he's lit the fuse, which I just would have assumed that this bomb would have been detonated via a cell phone or some sort of electronic trigger, but
This is old school. This is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five to so. I'm wondering how long this fuse had, because he had to get far away from this and he walked slowly to not draw attention to we also told you that timothy mcveigh was arrested. Luckily, he was pay upon another charge, so he was already in custody, and so they, when they went looking for him, it has had to go charge him for this. Crime will get out of the charges here shortly, but the trials for timothy mcveigh and tearing nicholls didn't occur until nineteen ninety seven. There is a federal grand jury for two, they mcveigh and his sister testified. She had put up a result since early on, because was her brother. They had spent a lot of time together. He had filled her head, with all kinds of anti government propaganda by it.
Eventually, she comes around because the authorities- teller- hey we're just gonna, go after you too, because that's your brother, you may have had some involvement here or weaken, tie you and somehow were you're going to be charged with something and you go to prison and so she said: ok, fine, I'm going to testify now. The original attorney ford Timothy mcveigh once take this tactic where he says he's not the right guy, because you said lots, people saw things right there were other people spotted with mcveigh. Some of them were a man of men eastern descent had just stock with people, and then you have the other guy window number two from the rental truck shop. There's gotta be other people, you got the wrong man yeah. In fact, his attorney said that there was,
on a den of five leg found at the site which belong to the real bomber, as if the real bomber died in the explosion? And this would be a great defence tactic to say you can't charge my guy because the actual perpetrators already dead, Michael Fortier, along with his wife lorry boat, testify at the grand jury is well. My A fortier had really distance himself at this point he wanted to save his own skin and he does august tenth the grand jury indicted timothy mcveigh and terry nicholls on eleven felony counts that puts them at The centre of the blame for the bombing and the deaths of a law enforcement agents. Now fortier head
I didn't want to go down with the ship and, unlike we, he he had the least amount of involvement, but he absolutely knew about the plan so he's going to cop a plea. That's a huge thing, though so I mean we talk about this all if you know something, if you know something horrible gonna happening, you don't say anything. What does that make you? You know you can say it's an accessory, but it's a grey area. Well, since he was casing the building with timothy mcveigh, and he knew about the bomb plot. He knew what was going on I'd say it puts him there absolutely so he played guilty to minor firearms charge, and am he did his best to train This, in fact, he later on, was put into the witness protection programme, along with his wife and his children.
So he ends up getting an aim, change and moving. He ends at getting out the picture completely, not a slap on the rest really yeah. He ended. He did end up serving some time, but nothing like what's going to happen with the other two men. But for him to just serve some time for what has become the most deadly. Is the deadliest domestic terrorism attack on our soil? You would expect that they wanna nail all These guys are the war or anyone knew about the plot. Why? I think the way they look at it is they got enough good testimony that they're like where we can make use of you and will go after the other two guys. The public seemed okay with this, I guess for them part. The prosecutors even went out on October twentieth and announced, said they were going to go after mcveigh,
and nickels with the death penalty, Basically, everyone in the world knew about mcveigh at this point, but especially oklahoma. So can they try timothy mcveigh in Oklahoma, knowing just how the public feels about him. I mean. There's no question: why it's not like they're saying he didn't have anything to do with it despite stephen Joan says the public knows mcbay is responsible. I think you could do a change of venue. I think you could try to move it somewhere else, not that anyone wouldn't know about this case. It's the biggest case in american history. At that time, but by having it in Oklahoma, you have survived Members of family people that were impacted by this, so yeah they're going to try for a change of venue,
it's in ninety ninety six february, twentieth of ninety ninety six, when the key This is moved to Denver mcveigh nicholls who have obviously been at the center of much media attention are given a different venue so that maybe they can have something of a fair trial, also just days after that that leg that Mugabe's attorney had brought up? Well, they end up Then identifying that is actually belongs to a known victim and not a mysterious bomber whoops we don't see a trial for mcveigh and Nichols until ninety ninety seven. This is a monstrous investigation. They want to cross all their T. these, not all their eyes. They want to show the full force of the american government here. and they can't make any mistakes. You can say
that he has a right to a quick and speedy trial, but he needs time for defence and need prosecution needs time to go through all the evidence and there's a lot. I mean this is one hundred and sixty eight murders theirs even getting into the jury selection process, which was a nightmare because so many people thoughts on this case. It just everyday took a while by April twenty fourth, the trial was under way. So, let's talk about timothy mcveigh trial. Just a bit, Timothy mcveigh has said that he was a hat be with his attorney. Obviously, the attorneys job is to save his clients, life and you'll do by any means necessary or she will mcveigh wanted to really use his beliefs as part of his defense. He believed so much in what he had done, that he really wanted to mount what he called a necessary defense,
so he's trying to say. Let me show you the evils of the fur garments? You understand why I would do this visitor attorneys like what Doing that he's trying to get sympathy from the jury. You trying to say they'll see my point of view. Bill agree with me they'll, do jury notification and let me walk, I have to just keep making this comparison, its reminiscent of TED Kaczynski's trial, whereas I don't call me crazy. No, I'm not crazy. I want to defend myself in the court of law, and I want to do it this way. These guys are so egotistical there they are. Such believers in their rhetoric and their propaganda that he's thinking I'll get the jury. On my side, I just gotta tell the truth.
the prosecution, was easily able, in my opinion, to get the jury on their side because they showed you can't get sympathy by killing innocent people in new. That mcveigh was very much a believer in the founding fathers and he attack that by saying our forefathers didn't fight, women and children. They fought soldiers pointing out that mcveigh didn't go after the actual people that made the decisions he went after people who were going to their ninety five jobs. Essentially so talking about sympathy, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter how how angry you are, or what reasons you have for what you did. You don't get sick, pithy, murdering people, but yeah. This trial was huge. They had well over a hundred witnesses. They re able to go piece by piece and show all the evidence that they had against timothy mcveigh to show that he was the bomber. and there he had the means and the,
relation to do it. I I mean where do you save this man in such a trial? This is where is lawyer, so jones- is just betting on the suspect misidentification. That's all he's got, because how do you fight that Timothy was at this hotel signed in
You fight that they found all of these receipts all of these connections between his other two accessories. How do you fight that? He was witness to the ryder truck being rented and tied back to him. Yeah used a fake name, but this isn't rocket science. Here, it's pretty basic, straightforward stuff. The defense attorneys trying to he's trying to poke holes in it. By saying oh, this was you know, a very quick and you know, mishandled investigation should have taken much longer. Well, they had this guy in custody in like two days. That was a really good investigation, I'm applauding the government here, I wow they nailed this, wasn't somebody overlooking evidence or stepping in a puddle of blood or discarding some dna evidence. Now they mailed them,
probably the nail in the coffin coffin. Timothy mcveigh is when Michael Fortier, his former his testified that when he asked him, if he mcveigh about the people that would die in such an explosion. He said that timothy mcveigh brought up star wars and said well. There lie like troopers if their part of the evil empire than their guilty by association, it doesn't matter whether they ve killed. Someone personally or not they're part of this organization that needs to pay so if that doesn't illustrate the innovation of timothy mcveigh. I don't know what would he sees himself as the hero rebels going after the evil empire. Now dozen we, say that they nail into the wall I feel like they did, but there are some questions, because there were some people seen here there. The numbers vary, but there were
Other people seeing that potentially could have had something to do with his bombing. I don't how you feel about it, but to me as unimportant. We know that mcveigh was the planter and he was the guy that executed. This plan so yeah I mean if there was one person who may have I hour provided something along the way towards this plot? away? Well, they got the ringleader, they got the guy who made all this happened That'S- why would matter is if they didn't get everyone that was responsible here, but that doesn't cast any doubt on mcveigh. It just means that they didn't get everyone that they needed to. It doesn't make him not guilty he's just as guilty. We know
Was this the main guy the king pin? They can make that argument that there were other people involved, but we know Timothy mcveigh was involved in his attorneys even Jones is saying, come on the forty years going to say whatever they have to say, because you're trying to save themselves that doesn't ring his true as forty our brain star wars which Timothy mcveigh was, star wars and star trek fan know he would think of himself terms of certain characters like he would have similar traits. So when I think about this, I think he's really getting to the jury at. That point Fortier is because he's letting them know hey. I spend time with this guy we had conversations. This is what he told me, and then you have an attorney
who everyone knows is trying to help his client saying they're liars, but how about the over a hundred witnesses they brought in placing these men at certain places, getting all the bomb making materials renting the truck and being at the point of the explosion right before happened. That doesn't matter pick, it doesn't add up while the trail you know it took over a month or so, but I think it's this idea that if you can create enough fusion or doubt somewhere, along the way that the jury will be hesitant to pull that trigger. But really you know if you just have a competent prosecution, They will make sure to keep steering things back to normal, which is what the iter the prosecutor did in this case, and the defence for Timothy. There were smart enough to not take Timothy's advice or
tactics of all, let me just admit to it, not just get everybody on my side. They had the wherewithal to stay on target and try to give him a defence. I figure Is what june eleventh hundred ninety seven when the jury, after deliberating for nearly a full day, came back with a verdict they found him guilty on all eleven counts: Timothy mcveigh did not react or respond when he was found guilty and the verdicts were red and there's reason for that later. His father bill said that mcveigh was accepting of his fate. If that's what it was to be
after another couple of days, the jury was able to decide on a face fate, and that was this as a prize, you, though, no not in the slightest a hundred and sixty eight people died, hundreds were injured, they felt like they needed to do something. So dear to him to send a message. This was not necessary just to get rid of mcveigh, but to send a message of if you're going to pay something like this. You will die. The state will kill you now, the judge. He has no problem handing out this verdict. He has no problem handing out this sentence, but of course he asked Timothy, do you have anything to say so mcveigh quoted from a dissenting opinion. This is from a supreme court, This I donno vagabond has a name. Is it something like louis
and this is from nineteen twenty eight in the quota is our government is the potent the omnipresent teacher for good or ill. It teaches the whole people by its example that I have. This is mcveigh calling back to this idea that the government has done so many things wrong and has hurt and killed. So many people that this is what they're teaching people that it's the norm. And I think it's almost his way of saying they taught me to be this way it's almost like he's putting the blame for what he did back on the government. You made me, you can't take responsibility or accountability, saying you're the bad guys, and this was again his necessity. Defense. Be sure to check out where the crowded sing in theatres July fifteenth based on the best selling,
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involving was with timothy mcveigh. Timothy mcveigh is obviously already found guilty on october. Thirty, first of ninety seven? Seven women and five men were selected to be the jurors in the trial of terry nipples, the process yours are primarily showing how Terry nicholls was involved in the collection of materials to build the bomb and that something they can easily you once again, Michael fortier is, is a witness on the stand star yeah he's will remember he spent so much time with these guys and they were freely telling him what was going on mean he knew in october of nineteen ninety four and he was told by timothy mcveigh, Terry Nichols. Remember he had gotten remarried at some point to a woman from the philippines. Well, his ex wife testified
against him at trial, because she said a letter from her former husband to Timothy mcveigh said to go for it five months before the bombing occurred, meaning he's agreed to it and let's go for it pretty clear so course. The defense: what what can they do here because is there's all this evidence against their client. They going to save him. I mean they go after Michael. They say he's a liar and he's a drug user. They try to discredit the fbi. They had had now in a half hour long interview with terry nicholls, two days after the bombing they're trying to say that this is coerced you trying to say that this is questionable interviewing because it was too soon. That's not a good defense. I mean that's just here. We have some stuff, they would have.
They also try to focus on that. That sketch John John number, two saying that's not our client client, remember, the person that was seen with mcvay, and it wasn't him, but it was just some random guy and that's what happens in investigations. That's what happens with eye witness testimony. People can get wrong, but when you have all the physical evidence tying these people back together, yeah terry was found guilty on one count of conspiracy. And eight counts of involuntary manslaughter. I believe this was related to the law enforcement debts, and They were seeking the death penalty against him. The prosecution was but on january seventh of nineteen. Ninety eight, the jury could not decide they were not unanimous, so he would not be facing the death penalty,
Essentially they find him guilty, but they have a an additional trial for sentencing the jury's thinking you have a counts of involuntary manslaughter. Does that reach the threshold of putting someone to death, and they can't come to that conclusion. They made an offer to Terry Nichols. They are offering leniency if he would give them more information about the bombing he just didn't want to do it. He sees non cooperative. Michael Fortier got sentenced to twelve years in prison and find too thousand dollars because he didn't warn anyone, meaning the authorities about the bombing plans. What can you say? I mean he saved himself by being the star witness at two trials, knowing what had occurred, He got off pretty light. Now, Stephen Jones. He drops out he's he's done with timothy mcveigh,
They don't see eye to eye, they bought heads all, I'm so he's out and mcveigh gets new attorneys. He is going to appeal law, you get out attic appeal when it's a capital case terry Nichols it was sing when he was sensed the judge. The federal judge called him in. Any of the constitution, which is interesting because generally peep like terry nicholls believe that their defenders of the constitution so kind of neat line from the judge. I would say irony: this was not unexpected, but timothy mcveigh. his appeal was ridiculous. he came out with these different reason. Is why his trial was unfair this or that, of course, he didn't t never liked his attorney but it's one situations where everyone knows you were the bomber. So if you think that essentially, it is like you did it. So why are we going to hash this out as a waste of time?
why even bother with any technicalities, why even bother with- and I get it I want our system to work properly, but in a case like this or in cases with serial killers worth it's so obvious that they're, the ones that did it, everyone has their due process, but wow taken very seriously one in its difficult for me to see any real issue here. It really is so I'm like you that you know, it was interesting recently we had an attorney right into us and say when you guys say technicalities it's like he sang it doesn't give enough. Why to the way the process should work, and you just said it. If there are some issues there. They should tackle them, no matter what the circumstance, but this is, is best
I can tell there's nothing here, that's really warranting a revisit in an appeal. Would this is the problem? Is let's say the technicality is going to? Throw everything out is going to show that this person is innocent. I get that in Timothy's case. Is it going to warrant enough that he shouldn't get the death penalty? While you can hash these things out, but I dont see anyone sympathising with this man and reversing course on the death penalty. So yes, I absolutely agree that we need a hash out these technicalities in this case. We all know what the outcome is gonna be. We know that it's not going to change anything Now we're dimension that there were sightings people seem of mcbay who supposedly were never tracked down and
are a number of people who definitely believe that not all of the plotters of the a city bombing have been properly investigated or arrested the more ridiculous things I found, though, when I tried looking up to conspiracies, was They said that there were bombs detonated from within the building and outside the building, miss is pre nine, eleven everybody. So this is the inside job. Demolitions were used, buildings don't collapse this way. This is exactly where they got that from it was pre prepped to do this and it was the government doing this and timid is, is the the fall guy for it all and I'll tell you right now. If you would have asked Timothy when he was still alive. If he was the fall guy, he would have spit new.
Yes, I he absolutely takes credit for this. His whole defense was, I had to do it, so you gonna. Take that from him say the government really y know and later on, when he was doing interviews, you know his attorneys, They don't ask him about that. Don't ask him about if he was the bomber, but it's like everybody knew also. There were unexploded bombs in the building. Technically, there was an agent in the building who had what amounted to be reminded to a paper weight which was it look like sticks of dynamite with a clock on it, but that wasn't an actual bomb right in and when they were going to the rubble after the explosion, they found a dummy device that they used that the eighty, if used, is like a training prop and that freaked them out and they pulled back
thinking there were multiple bombs in the building. It was a tow missile which stands for tube, launched optical tracked wire command, commanding guided missile. It was inert these unexploded bombs, weren't part of a plot to blow up the building. If the building and ever blown up, they would have continued to be in the building and nothing ever would have happened. But conspiracy, theorists like to latch on to anything, in one of the problems we have with this idea. That there's a conspiracy here is that it takes away on the responsibility that timothy mcveigh has for what happened he's the one they did this by. You know coming out with these crazy conspiracy theories were essentially sang at was a really him, and this is the
propaganda and rhetoric of these same groups, the same anti government groups, because they are so blinded by their hate that oh no, this atrocity had to have been done by the government themselves because it was too well planned. It was what the However, they say they cannot accept that Timothy one of their own actually did it. It's two thousand when mcveigh instead, aside, decide that he's ready to give up and just be put to death because he ends his appeal it's because they're not going anywhere, they keep getting denied and his attorneys can keep trying he's like. I'm done and his father had visited him as well as a sister. At one point, he even got the right to make contact physical contact with his fans.
We have said if you're willing, we'll let you meet with your son with your brother and you can hug him good by Timothy said. No, he would only make contact with the glass that separated him from his family, so he put his hands up there. His dad would put his hands up there. It's like tat, If was maintaining that distance said he had had for a while from his family, but would you expect from him? He had run his mission, it was over and he was going to be put to death. What was left for him to do. You didn't need to make any connection, he didn't need to make amends with anyone. His dad try asking him. Why did you do this? me. Everyone knows. Mcveigh has made statements It lets you know, he's anti government that he feels like they have trodden on people's rights, that they've.
killed you us citizens and that they need to be held accountable, but he really wanted his son to talk to him, but just like where he couldn't. Open up to good old granddad who he was closest to. He wasn't about to open up with his own father. So the lesson here sin. Is it's an isolation thing? It's it's going to separate you from everybody and, in the end, its is really just a sad and tragic tale. Hundreds of people had to die simply because mcveigh. had no choice in his own mind, but to take action against his own government, because in his mind. He was still a hero. He was it's going against the grain because everyone else they don't know. What's really going on so Aaron, you ve read a book, you ve just filled your head up full of this guy's actions, this big v in idea log. Where do we start with this work
are your thoughts on him or this book that you read. Why wanted to read this book? and terrorist its primarily. And by louis Michel he was actually about low journalist and I think, a very good know it said that journalists just try to show you stuff. They pretty much just want to expose things to you. That's why you read their articles. That's why you read their books That's the power of the journalist is to try and be unbiased. Now this book is semi. Controversial right Well, so, if you're doing these long interviews with someone such as timothy mcveigh, who has perpetrated such a horrific crime, mean literally crimes, then some are saying you're, giving him a platform where, is the journalist might say in all the more you know, the more you understand and let me say this right off the bat you're, letting him have a platform. Your letter
him say how he thinks about things. I say: let him be is now you can show everyone hey this guy's, you're saying this this this and that they also murdered a hundred and sixty eight people. So let that sink in this is my thing. Is we have the history channel which people used to refer to as the hitler channel, because all it was was war were too commentaries trying to explain over and over again how the Nazi regime came to power in how This is wrong and we should never repeat it. How many podcast book True crime, John horror stories: do we had about serial killers, we're not giving them a platform were analyzing, it Looking at it, we're trying to understand how this happened, what makes this person tick with the hope that maybe someday we could prevent the tragedy right right, and so one thing that the book that Lou Michel wrote
seems a focus on. Is this idea that Timothy started as a young man full of promise, a guy that wanted to do the right thing believed in his country He became an amazing soldier when he perform tasks, or aged in training exercises. He was at the top of the class, but overtime sartor become jaded towards his own government This is based on stuff. He was reading as well as His own experience is one thing that really was going on was that timothy mcveigh was born with this too. I dont think it was simply. He read some staff. Some self happened he became jaded. I think that there has to be more to it than that, because there are a lot of people online that are jaded and blue the government is absolutely behind every single major military event or terrorist event that you can
gov and not raising arms up against against government government. I mean there's so many people think nine eleven- was an inside job. Yet they're not storming the white house right now. If you really believe that the government was behind it, how come you're not doing something? That's the question for mcveigh. I believe that there is something that he was born with the has some to do this, and I also think when you have someone who doesn't have good relationships that factors, and so if you look at his law if he literally lost contact with his mother. He didn't really contact with his sisters. Although I guess his younger sister jennifer, there was a little better contact there. He and his dad quite see eye to eye is dad wanted him to succeed and he tried to help him and he probably hats and feelings of I'm not living up to what I should be with my dad his dad was also very pro america. He flew the american
flag outside their home. He loved his country, overtime, mcveigh, lost that love So the only relationships that you could say really had. One of them was his grandfather, his dad's father, Ed, ads had taught him to shew guns, taught him to respect guns, but when Timothy mcveigh, I started to have his breakdown when he was really experiencing a major emotional event where he knew that he just couldn't cope anymore with the way things were, went to see his grandfather, but he would not talk to him. He just wanted somewhere to go in that, and he tells me everything he could love his grandfather. But does he really to me it's not that he loved his grandfather? He respected him, but he wasn't truly on the inside with him. Do you know what I mean so there wasn't, this relationship rig. Would say here are the problems I'm having here my thoughts. He wasn't doing that. the only person he ever formed a relationship with where there
this dialogue and working through stuff together was terry nicholls. So when you look at that, he lit They got into a single relationship which is not a romantic relationship, but they were friends almost brothers, probably warlike fathers. On or something really in the end. It was an echo chamber was key. formation by us and all he did was feed all of his eight and stuff back in and it was like a pressure cooker. That's how I see it. One alot of people can complain and bitch about the government, but not everybody is throw under fire. Bombs are going out and trying to blow up buildings because there are not a true believer. The way mcveigh was- and I feel that this is the going narrative with him, but it somewhat true he he saw what happened at ruby bridge. He saw the militia groups, the white supremacist groups come out and say this anti government rhetoric there like look what they just did these people for
having guns having their own religion, they murdered them, and then you fast forward onto waco, Were you have the same sort of rhetoric the same anti government the government's coming to take your guns away the garments coming to prevent you from worshipping that extreme rhetoric has roots in militia groups and white supremacist groups but it's way more broad and widespread. You have a lot of religious groups that are not white superman. Is that are not any sort of racist group whatsoever. You have the inner re, which that's their whole rhetoric is don't take our guns
hey. They have a very anti government rhetoric that was so bad at that time that even george h bush resigned from the in ouray, because it was too much for him to even accept or swallow to me. It was a whole like culture of anti government rhetoric and it was mainstream. It wasn't the fringes, it was out there and it still is out there. You just don't see it as much, I guess back then this was a natural progression for somebody like and the thing they vey or all the people, he was on bombers row with the guy from the world trade center bombing and tag convince key. These were all three people that were anti government anti, whatever they all came from it from totally different directions. Own belief systems yet could be their own belief systems, but I think what makes them
im, who they are, is really the primary motivator. Here I mean Timothy mcveigh could espouse his views all day, but when I listened to him talk and when I read what he's written, I just hear an in cell, I hear a person who doesn't have a good view. The world, because they dont have relationships, their life has literally become nothing, and so their rage is really about themselves. I think this other stuff it dressing, you know and it's something that they ve latched onto, because their own lives I have meaning, so they sought meaning, and where do you get that, meaning you go somewhere where Someone is drilling it into you with a passion that you've never heard before you get that from this white supremacist groups, timothy mcveigh, a lot of people are like well, was he racist or not? As far as I can tell, I don't know that
because the see the problem was, is the only group stepper really about the anti government about protecting your freedom. in your guns, were these white supremacist group, so I think he was going to overlook it, but you know he would take this literature to fellow soldiers and they would look at him like this. racist. It was the turner diaries right that was of their members. One of the primary pieces of literature that he would go to and he would say while this is it, this is what it's all about. If anyone is not familiar, with that book. It's essentially a revisionist history. If the blacks and the Jews took over and oppress the white race, that's what that whole book is about and then it's how to rise up revolt and pick targets for your terrorist attack.
This whole oklahoma city bombing is literally almost lifted from this book, but it's even worse than it is reality is much more brutal infection that was spired by no doubt. In one thing I can say for sure just based on the reading. I've done is that thinking they really did focus on what he called reverse discrimination. And I see this a lot with people who have a fear. It's like oh a white male now, I have to fear the world because I'm no longer fitting in I'm going to be pushed out, my way of life will be pushed out. My country will no longer be my country and to me that's fee, it's like these people? Don't recognize that day. Our city is strength. They judge fear. All this up, that's gonna happen, because these are people that don't think the way they do so now the future is doomed and again,
really think this comes down to his life became empty and without meaning what did he have? He had white supremacist groups that he could latch onto because they were so passionate. They were talking about what was wrong with the world and what they could maybe do to fix it when you think about what he was up. To trying to pass out the turner diaries to people when he was writing in the newspapers, and he was to tell his own sister about what is going on in the world. This is litter the guy who was falling latched onto something because it spoke to him. You know it's frightening. He bought a wholesale and became a fundamentalist day during his trial. One, it is defences, are pretty much has only defence, which is interesting, because it reminded me a lot of Kosinski, but mcveigh said he had two bombed it was necessary to do so, and this is obviously moulded by all the anti government rhetoric he had learned
but what I see in here today from people bitching about the government, all the time is, if you hate, government in think it's murdering citizens and taking your guns, then thames actions would make sense. But not everyone thinks that way. I see people go out online, pile on others call others out it's this very vile rhetoric, and I see he groups go after each other saying how bad this other group of people is whatever their target is whether it be Another group of people, whether be somebody you just think, is bad on the internet. I see that this response use we become the monster, you hate. What's the old quoted slake,
If you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss gazes onto you, Timothy here his abyss was the government in that's just what he wrapped himself with same with Kosinski same with a lot of these terrorists? They just eat, breathe and sleep. This confirmation bias in their echo chamber, just like any hake group, has multiple ones I can find on. Facebook is just these groups appeal. in cells whatever and that's all they want and there's no dissenting opinion. This is what you get whatever they think is the bad thing out there. They become worse than that, most of you know: I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers an incredible select of audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities.
Down experts and, as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audio books, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership I get one title a month to keep and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just Did the audio book anti social about online extremism techno utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation, audible, hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP were text gaeta, BP, two five hundred five hundred; that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, bill dot com, slash w p me a while. He was in a rack when some of them, four fired on by. U S, I'll terry mcveigh at the time was. Oh there was an ambush by in iraqi hit team will when he found out the truth, it really pissed him off.
So his reaction is to blow up a federal building in the united states. So let s think about this. There were some soldiers that were killed over iraq, but he's going to kill hundreds of people american right, that's his getting back at the government. Does he realized that getting back at the It doesn't work that way. These are actual human beings who are just to work. This is the problem, and here says it in his own words. He says you have to have a body count before any one listens. You have to kill innocent people before you make your mark, but even know all the rhetoric from all these different groups that we have just talked about all refer to the government as
jack boot thugs coming to take your guns. The government has made up by the people just like me and you and when you kill them, kill and a father you're killing a daughter, you're killing an american, so timothy mcveigh says you have to have a body count to be listened to. Listen to what it's not like, he's converted alot of people has he know. So what was the end result here? A lot of people died and then he was What did death this was a waste of human life for the fantasy of a madman. One thing that the book points out: casinos, would have happened if he had been given money. want to stay somewhere. Why is the military? What if he had been given that promotion if he had been given this or that would if he had got in there. We want it when he got out of the military? I dont think those things mattered. No timothy mcveigh was on this course. The only thing that might have derailed this whole thing is. If he had ever
formed a real, healthy relationship with someone I know it sounds crazy, but he never had this relationship I mean it's even rumoured. They remained a virgin up until the day died. It's quite possible this the little aside. But from what I understand when he would talk to women, he didn't know how to talk to them. He would try to escalate things very quickly, whoa slow out now and they were turned off by him. So I say in cell I mean it: it's not like I'm just making this up. But to me there is really looking back knowing who he was knowing what he was feeding his brain with on a daily basis, knowing that he got if his computers, for, even though he was talented computers, he got rid of them. He was focused on his hatred of the government, his fear of the government and that filled his mind until he could no longer contain himself change the name change government to technology. You almost got TED cause.
Gee I mean they're so similar in all of their rhetoric, their ideas they get to point b, just get there from different way. after such a devastating horrific event. It snows surprised that a memorial was planned approximate. Three hundred buildings have been damaged as a result of the blast oklahoma city, wandered away to honour all those affected and have a place to educate and to provide a place for reflection. I want to speak that about the oklahoma city, national memorial. You can visit the homepage, for memorial at oklahoma city, national memorial, dot, org five years after the bombing memorial was dedicated, the museum which houses more than a million photos. Artifacts and documents includes all the resources they need to understand what happened on April, nineteen nineteen, eighty five,
as well as the impact that the bombing had on the people of Oklahoma city, the first set undertaken to restore the city to create the memorial. after you visit the museum? You can turn after you go in you can turn right make your way to the outdoors. Symbolic memorial, which, if you look up the images of the memorial. This is what your likely to see as you go out. There is a survey or a tree. This tree had been affected by the blast, but now I survived it but thrived, and so it stands as a major piece of memorial and all around it is the rescuers orchard head is reflecting pool beyond that. The field of empty chairs This outdoor symbolic memorial has two large gates of time.
ninety one, a m in the southeast area of the memorial and, on the other end, nine o three, a m. These are literally the minutes on either side of when the blast occurred in between those two gates is a three hundred and eighteen foot, long shallow body of water, it's known as the reflection poor are, you can stand under, need these survivor tree and look out beyond the reflecting pool and see a field filled with bronze and glass chairs. There are one hundred, and sixty eight of them, nineteen of those chairs are smaller to represent the children that were lost in the bombing, according to the memorial website? No two chairs are identical. They also make note that, when you're standing by the reflecting pool or if your underneath the tree and you're looking out,
at these chairs you can actually reach them and that's a powerful site, so powerful thought, the fact that these chairs, that represent those who died as a result of this terrorist act there beyond your reach, but you can think about them. You can reflect on them, but you reach them. There were two surviving walls of the outer p moreau building you in the memorial and titled the survivors wall the names of those who survived the blast, our on panels that are from that same building. offense that was used during the search and rescue effort was so placed in the memorial visitor sleep, momentous there and imagine they're just expressing their respects there is also a children's area. That's at the front of the museum when you first approach it, Five thousand hand painted tiles,
Some of them have children's handprints and there are also these chalk, which visitors can write or drawn the oklahoma city. Memorial marathon was a way to help fund this museum memorial, the first one had almost five thousand participants these days. That number has risen by quite a bit and now numbers more twenty four thousand them from this goes hoard both museum, the memorial april, nineteen, twenty twenty will mark twenty five years since the deadly bombing, the terrorists behind the bombing who may have had their own political ideas there all night idea oh geez, that drove them to do what they did. They don't get their say. They caused a lot of death and struck. Those who survived this bombing
chrome, ascidians. Those who support them they're the ones get the final say there are the ones who defined with this tragic event meant what it was about, What it will continue to mean long into the future
Blood ties, the award winning on your drama from wondering returns, forts third season strange days with another thrilling story about greed, power and deception. Fine years have passed since eleanor play by giving Jacobs up community took over as ceo of the infamous richly family empire. Alongside her half brother Santana, play by christian navarro of thirteen reasons. Why, together they decide to invest the family fortune in a groundbreaking, controversial new drug but ash fucking revelations about the new treatment emerge. Eleanor and Santana go to every length to protect their control of the rich one. Family dynasty as Ellen his father did always say. Medicine is a bloody business, listen to blood ties strange days by joining one replied in the one recap, or an apple podcast, and for the first time and exclusively to one reply. Subscribers and the wondering, ty season three, as presented in dolby at most a revolutionary audio technology for the most immersive sound experience possible subscribe today.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.