« The Generation Why Podcast

Pamela Smart - 199

2016-09-11
Pamela Smart. May 01, 1990. Derry, New Hampshire. A 22 year-old media services director at Winnacunnett High arrives home to discover the condominium that she shared with her husband dark and quiet. Once inside she would find him dead on the floor and their place ransacked. The investigation would stall early on until a young man went to police with information. This would ultimately lead to the arrests of five people. One of whom was the very wife of the of the murdered man. The four young men would cut deals while she maintained her innocence. Billy Flynn, just a sophomore at the high school, had become her lover and said that she had coerced him into killing her husband. Did Pamela Smart conspire to kill her husband? Or was she falsely implicated by the younger people she had become involved with? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by peacock bridge ending the original limited series. A friend of the family based on story of the Jan roper, kidnappings from nick and oscar executive producer of the act and candy and after producer eliza hip and comes a dark. Compelling. Look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself, the series stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on peacock. Take a to get away from our sponsor racked racket, tennis the smartest and most rewarding way to shop in save, earn cash back at over thirty five hundred stores and every single category like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals travelled, dining subscription services and much more membership is free, and it's really easy to sign up rocketing posits your cash directly into your paypal account or they can send your check. It's no brainer. You can cash back for what you already are shopping for rocketing has
Fifteen million members who are already saving all your shopping, racket and outcome or get the rackets an app to start saving. Today, that's racket in our aid Hey? U t e n dot com, I did I'm doing fine. Just in we ve had you request to get our premium episodes up on itunes and, of course, bring
in the they're just for you to purchase an episode from us to help the show out. and we now have five up on itunes, one of which has a corrected price, the other four I have yet to get the prices corrected. By that I mean when emphasis it is a dollar. Ninety nine and the others are all nine. Ninety nine. Now this is out of our control until we can make a request for itunes to lower the prices, if you're an apple user. You can purchase our premium episodes through items. So please, god, check it out. Kelly Thomas is dollar. Ninety nine! Now the other four episodes well will try and get them to lower the price of sin, but you could help me the nine ninety nine if you want, but if you just wait a little bit, though they'll come down and price tonight's case PAMELA, smart. Nineteen nine- these are still in high school.
How does this go on? May first. Ninety ninety gregg, smart, twenty four years old, is shot and killed in I his condominium in derry, new Hampshire, the place appeared to have been ransacked and PAMELA smart greg's, wife of less than a year discovered his body and investigation reveals that PAMELA smart may, of course, her lover a high school student name, billy flynn, sixteen years old, to murder, her husband with the help of three friends In the end, your left with a woman who says that she was not involved and you have these high school students who all say that, yes, She was, and so were they. This was pretty big news back then this was huge. Some people say it's the first trial that was ever televised. Well there you are the first one. They say that his televised gavel, the gavel
You could tune in and see what was going on that day. Was there a witness defying. Was there a forensic experts, you name, it I know that the what is it the manila his brothers, they were. They actually murdered their parents the year before, but they weren't captured and tell about the same time as the PAMELA smart thing. This is a new deal for television for people to see real. Court cases and it exploded. Now I was in high school. I wasn't paying attention so I really nist d, the crest of this when it was really popular. I know watched any of the movies that are based off of this. What is it to die for, and I don't even remember the but it's a diver. Yes, that was stirring, Nicole kid men and it was a fictional film, but it was, I suppose, based on this story,
so multiple books and movies are made about this case- pretty big deal, this one? I want to know that I came into this fairly fresh without any kind of preconceived notions. When you You can understand why these cases were so big because in one you had the two who murdered their parents. and then you have in this case it's a hot for teacher case. Pamela smart was never a teacher. We'll talk in a little bit about why it's a hot for teacher case there's an explanation for that. Now: some backgrounds, PAMELA whoa Jess, later PAMELA smart, grew up in coral gables florida. Her parents moved to new Hampshire. When she was in the eighth grade. It said the move was due to their father's cancer.
what about the crime rate in miami. She has an older sister named Elizabeth and a younger brother named John, whose named after her father, she was known as an exceptional student. She attended pinkerton academy, for high school and made the honourable every year. She the cheer cheerleader for three years. One thing that notable about her was that she was obsessed with the rock group ban Helen, and this is what I want: first to earlier pot for teacher Van Helen has a song hot for teacher back when diamond day was the singer The only then Halen I ever listened to is when David Lee roth was with the ban in her Pinkerton academy yearbook, nineteen, eighty five. She is featured in the she's in the yearbook and she lists her pursuit as to dance tonight away with David Lee roth, like I said
diamond dave. Man diamond dave, her first car had a vanity plate that read halen she would later get a dog as a gift from gregory smart after she graduated college. It would be a shit zoo that she named Helen. Course. She did so she's a little into rock music that takes us tagrag, because gregg looked like a rock her he had the long hair and he was much into rock and roll just like PAMELA was after she graduate Pinkerton academy. She enrolled at florida state university by this time. Jeanne gregg, had met at a new year's party. and they said ever since she met him, and this was in nineteen, eighty six they were inseparable. Now she grew in florida and after she graduates high school. She wants to go to college in florida.
Now her father John, was an airline pilot and so do winged florida not a big deal, because she was able to fly back to new hampshire to visit her boyfriend. Whenever she wanted, those are perks of her dad being an airline pilot probably got free flights there. After a while. He would end at moving down to florida to be near her. I think he moved to tallahassee and- after she graduated, though she agreed move back to new Hampshire, because that's where he really wanted to live, he didn't want to live in florida, they're kind of noise These type people will PAMELA, though, really love florida. The northeast. little cool, though cold by she wanted to with gregg, sir. She capitulated. They met in nineteen. Eighty six at a new year's eve party. They said dating february of night Eighty seven officially just a little over
years later they end up getting married. May seventh, nineteen, eighty nine in lowell massachusetts They would move into a condominium on misty morning, DR now, that they're married, I think there starting to figure out they need to get on with their careers. Gregg would end up cutting his hair and looking more preppy die. He looked respectable business Mankind write his father was an insurance, that's what he decided to get into PAMELA he took a job as a media services director at when it can it high in hampton new hampshire. This is where they start running into trouble she's already had to give up florida. Now he's given up his look that she really light, so he doesn't look the way she wants him to look There are also not spending a lot of time together, he's hanging out as friends alot more. Yes, he likes to be outdoors and he likes me with his friends,
and he's really spent a lot of time. Leading up to this moment become an insurance salesman studying to take a test. So he could qualified to do that. Rights are very rock and roll No he's not a rebel anymore, maybe not so attractive in her eyes, but she still married him in the meantime he's telling his parents everything's great he's hoping that family going thinking about getting a house. anyway, that new them said pan. it's not really into settling down and having children. They figured that gregg would have to work on her for a while trying convinced that this is what they should do. The other thing that,
depends where she's at when a can at high. Is she volunteers to be a facilitator for a drug awareness program? Now this drug awareness program is titled project self esteem and students, as well as adults, act as facilitators in the program and all freshmen at the high school are required to go through the program and she makes friends with some of these teens, which isn't weird, I mean they're, not that far apart in age. Technically she really be friends, some of them to the point where I find it a little little odd, because when I was twenty two, I wasn't hanging out with sixteen year old. It does happen. True any did happen when I was sixteen. I know
friends of mine and I we would hang out with one of their brothers and their friends. Sometimes I was thirteen. I remember yeah, so it does happen. One of the people that she needs is cecilia, pierce, yeah, she's, fifteen years old. She considers herself to be a friend of PAMELA's yeah and just like you said, PAMELA be friends people, so she doesn't act as the adult she's, acting as a friend, yeah they're hanging out there going shopping, pierce, actually spend the night at her house kind of friendship right, greg's out an PAMELA has brought over silly to hang out. She would also end up paying out quite a bit with Billy flynn. His name is william flynn, but everyone calls and billy aged twelve. He moved from California DC brook new Hampshire soon after his dad. He was a partner in a small construction company. His dad died.
auto accident. His mother had to work multiple jobs to support the family. So he didn't really have any supervision like he otherwise would have minors. You can't really see their records, so we don't know what kind of a kitty was, but there is a lot of positive information about him back in the day he and his friends vance also on his J, R and Patrick alzheimer's pete were known as the three muscle Here's they would hang out all the time and they were doing odd jobs for neighbours. Elderly neighbours got helped and sometimes it no charge. Vance lattimer junior lived with his pen ass in a converted, mobile home, his mother, but and a woman who was concerned first son because he had dropped out of school now his name is ralph. Well, and he lived in a shack with his dad and this
thing is: is he literally had garbage bags in the windows? And me it's a shack, really run down. This really destitute, and this woman was concern for her son, so vance his mother takes it upon ourselves to invite ralph in their house and encourage him to go back to school. Like will give you a good place to stay, not that they had a great and they didn't have a great home either, but they had it a lot. than then Ralph did so. He lived with them and I guess junior soros saw him as a brother. They weren't hang out a lot, but they were cordial to each other and there was respect their another person involved in this case is Patrick pete randal. He had some.
With school, and what we do know about him was that he was truant a lot and it actually cost him graduation into tenth grade. So he repeated his freshman year. One other person to know about is raymond fowler for he was a couple of years older than these other guys. He was a good quaint. They would meet up sometimes but he wasn't really part of their group gives a really good acquaintance. These are the players that are involved in this s early on in the marriage. There's some diversion between this couple he's changed. His whole look he's changed the direction of his life, he's not telling his parents that
many issues, yet he's not hanging out with her a lot he's hanging out with his friends and she's befriended, some high school students and he's stayed out all night and the next day he says he was drunk just passed out at his friend's house, and he lies to her because in reality he had actually gone out and had a one night stand with another woman, so right on the bad. This isn't the best circumstance or relationship. This was in december of nineteen. Eighty nine. So I was There are some issues with the marriage. You have PAMELA spending a lot of time at these teenagers and she take billy and cecilia out to eat, to play arcade games and shopping malls. She had the car, you had it to seed under they would all cram in there and she would drive them off to places some time after gregg admitted his one night stand. Pamela spoke to Billy about
relationship. What I mean by that is, she starts talking to billy about them. And she asked him. Do you ever think of me when I'm not around and he replied yeah what kind of sport This conversation noah's, cecilia, actually said billy likes you two panel, and so that got the converse asian, going so they're they're, all very close, and they all know each other's business, because her spent how much time together in peril.
I says to him, while I think about you all. The time now put this into perspective. He's a young teenager, and he has this older, attractive woman telling him that she's interested in him yeah that's game over it's pretty powerful stuff. Now, on February fifteenth, this is the day. After valentine's day, Greg's out of town PAMELA drives Billy and cecilia to a video store to rent a bunch of movies, nine and a half. Weeks. Well, that's one of them actually rent like us. The brunei understand a rented, a stack of movies yeah, but nine and a half weeks is kind of the that's the first one. They put him right, yeah, that's the date movie that you know you yeah one of the other just cover he now I will get all these movies and then all will just put this one in yeah and the movie heats up and, as that's happening, PAMELA ass, billy, the go upstairs with her and give her a hand yeah. He goes up there.
He has put van hail and on the city player, and I think she put on the oh you ate went to album. She is it coming out of the bag, through a negligee. Let's just say things get really it up in the bedroom, cecilia after more than two hours. Finally, heads upstairs and calls out, then oh here, I hope you eyes are decent well there on the four naked, so she heads back downstairs. This is significant because was the next morning when PAMELA first- and this is according to not her but others, namely billy, says that she fur says they can't carry on our relationship with gregg around. She will continue according to him to have sex with him, and every time will tell him that gregg needs to go. There can't be together right, there's! No,
future there as long as greg's, around PAMELA according to billy, was manipulating him with the sex. Putting grew in a bad light by claiming that he was abusive and sleeping around on her, so she was making him Billy's enemy because now billy can save. Billy's can come in and be the hero. Yes, I think the reason that belief and gets on her radar is because, as I said, gregg smart has cut his hair he's not into the rock like style like he was when they met in was the whole driving force behind them connecting while she meets Flynn and billy flynn has long hair. He loves
rock and roll, particularly motley crew, and he plays guitar yeah now he's a little young, but he's everything that she's kind of looking for that edginess that free spiritedness. It's that lifestyle, the image it's what she wants speak connected with a PAMELA smart sent bill flynn, love letters, and she also sent him a picture very sexy picture of her in her bikini and what do you think of the the statutory rape of her being twenty two years old in him? Being sixteen? That's where an older woman in the younger boy now getting involve when a sexual relationship and a lot of times- and it's me they from men- and maybe this is why go that way. They'll say: oh good! For him there is considered a badge of honor for a younger man to be. With an older woman. But the reason I think that society has a problem with this is because
An older, more mature person can manipulate a younger person and get them to do bad things or get them into trouble, and this is exactly what we saw. case. I think that's. Another reason why this case blew up is because this is the sensational part of it. I have an older woman, taking advantage the younger man just clouding his mind with sex and promises of an incredible future, but there's something that Billy has trouble with, and that's that she makes it clear that greg would need to die because she can't divorce him, because greg would own everything he would take the house. The furniture and are precious dog Helen. Will you can't you can have at their some talk about there's a mild attempt on Greg's life as they are all right, but you know when we read about it. What really happens? I mean billy
that driving around and showing up the house late and by that time, greg's already inside, and so they There are two needy to attack him end billy's with flour that night raymond fowler yeah I'll, send his reign by these guys life will have nicknames even PAMELA had the nickname, Pammy, which is spelled p m e. So billy just couldn't do it and then Eventually, though, he gives into the pressure. But while this plan is unfolding, cecilia is asked to find a gun for them to use in He says that one of her coworkers zones again and her father owns again the co worker has like a handgun and she was actually setting up a scenario where her coworker would bring her gun to work but leave it in the car and then billy or somebody would break into the car and steal it. I think her father,
shot gun and according to them, a shock was maybe two messy, so they didn't want, he's a shock and they wanted to use a pistol or a handgun of some type. So cecilia is kind of in the know that their planning, something and she's had has a hand and telling them where she knows where there's guns are now really go anywhere because they end up getting a gun from somewhere else. Right, PAM says she'll, page five hundred dollars to each person who helps take gregg out and that whoever is involved can take whatever they want from the condominium. She has three, rules, though, that she said they must follow, one no lights. She says that gregg could easily be scared. If he notices that their lights on when there shouldn't be, he would become suspicious and probably just not go home. At that point, he would drive away too. They need to put the dog away, they can
aunt hurt the dog. They don't want the dog raising alarm. She must the dog safely stowed away somewhere else, now locked up in a bathroom or basement or some right and she loved that dark. So in three, she wanted them to use. A guy, like you said, can't use a shotgun gun. Dont want use a knife because it would create possibly just too much blood and would ruin furniture, juniors grandmothers car was supposed to be their ride, but Unexpectedly, it's an havre hill where the grandmother lives. I think it good that the vehicle was supposed to be at the house but after being at her house, so PAMELA needs to take them to get the car, so of course, all jump in her car and she takes them to. You know, drops him off at the vehicle. Right and then she goes on to the project. The self esteem place to argue about buddy,
cuts or something, and as some would say, this is her alibi. Yeah do though his dad owns a thirty eight revolver, so he fears he'll just borrow that gun they can you it? If need be, and then he can clean it and return it. that his dad, even knowing PAMELA, has given them some tips. So they aren't caught were dark clothing, which he says is you need disposable, clothing stuff you can just get rid of to wear gloves and then she's going to leave the our door unlocked, which is also known as a bulkhead. So they can sneak in that way enter the house they ransack it and then wait for gregg to come home. As we said in the summary gregor Smart would be murdered in his condominium, and this is what happens he could then, to his condominium end
Billy and randal, take gregg down to the floor and they want him to comply, ran putting a knife to his throat and he had actually planned to kill him with the knife, despite We're PAMELA wanted you don't, Just he loses his nerve. He can't do that. That's what I understand. and so that's billy pats chest area where the gun is and he'll pull it out and aim at it gregg and before, he pulled the trigger. He says god forgive me. there is a lot of debate or which were actually pulled the trigger. They say that forensics show that a left handed like. There is a lot of debate here, but their story matches so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day who pulled the trigger they agreed on, who pulled the trigger. So If you listen to them, it certainly sounds like Billy takes credit for it yeah. So
it will just go with that for the sake of the story. I know that anytime, you have two people involved with killing one person there could be debate, but the defense later on will make this argument drill it to nauseum, but it doesn't really matter. It's they are both in the house both there at the scene. Neither one of em tried to stop it and they both had weapons on them. So what ever story they give. Us is what we have to go with him, so they go with Billy's and I think it follow. The story bill is the one that has to do it, because it's his lover telling him you need to get rid of gregg for us to be together he's going to seize the opportunity. If he's going to save the maiden in distress, he's the one that has to kill gregg exactly may first, nineteen. Ninety, that's when they that's. When this goes down the
One to discover his body is PAMELA: smart yeah. She arrives back home and before we know it. She is banging on the neighbors door and screaming bangs on a lot of neighbors doors, because she doesn't think that they're coming fast enough and the police are called and she's actually allowed to come into one of the neighbor's house, and then they try to figure out like what happened. Did he have a heart attack? Whoa, you know: was he breathing whatever and it's pretty quick that they find the bullet wounds in his head. The police investigators show up at the scene and their questioning PAMELA smart. She says she has no idea whose done this. She has no clue if, greg had any enemies and she feel like it's a Robbery gone wrong or something she doesn't tell them anything, but they say.
We need to exclude fingerprints and other things from the house, so give us a list of all the people that have been inside the house recently and she gives them a list of like nine or ten, name's. Billy flynn is not on that list, nor is cecilia, so she excludes billy's name, that's just a little telling because he's been in the house, but she doesn't want to talk about tat yeah. Who else is she been hanging out with yeah? Exactly also the police ask her about her friends and greg's friends, and then They say who are your friends exclusively in you, hang out with, and gregg has no affiliation with. Now she gives
sicilians name at this point, along with other names, she still does not give billy floods name, the cops are contacting her friends and they contact cecilia and they ask What was the relationship like in their their questioning her, so silly you're saying, while I dont think PAMELA would have anything to do with this murder. She's kind of saying she doesn't know anything, but she consents to having the police put a wire tap on her phone and she consents to wearing a wire and going in talking to PAMELA. At the same time, ralph welsh will come to investigators also correct. He had heard a rumour about what had happened and he was spy. Hang on junior's. You know, I guess you could say he was his bedroom door. Here pressed again
sit and listening any third, some words that told him that these people were involved, meaning p, junior and billy. He would confront them about it by he would going with juniors parents. The latter means to the police station and telling them everything. He knew. One of the really strange things, happened was he said after they close the door on him because he did talk to them. Its told the jury heard, one of them whisper bills going to be passed and you who's going to be next- and so they asked him. What what does that mean? He said I thought they meant they were to kill raymond fowler, so maybe killing a witness, because he heard that he got upset and he opened the door on them, and I guess that's one just admitted yeah. We we kill them, and this is how it went down. He just didn't understand. How could they have done such a thing as yet,
it's on june tenth that j hours father actually brings the murder weapon. The revolver in to the police station in two days later they arrest, billy, PETE angie are so, these are the first arrests. Obviously welsh is information was significant in this case, they re able to move on it its june fourteenth when the police are getting the consent from cecilia, but this is all happening at the same time I'm so whether or not cecilia had anything to do with giving. A the information or if its jr or his father bringing get me and it's all happening simultaneously, so that the cops are investigating in the going in the right place. But this is a month after the murder. Pamela has not come forward to the police with any
useful information whatsoever. Pamela smart, will end up having a conversation with cecilia. During this conversation she says some very incriminating things about herself in the or being involved with murder, the conversation kind of ends with, if you tell the truth, cecilia you're, putting all of us in the slammer you're putting all of us I'm bars kind of insinuating like if you tell the truth, if you say that we all plan to do this work
we're going to jail or prison, so it's very damning. It's very incriminating on PAMELA's part. So after the police hear this conversation that PAMELA has with cecilia it's august. First, that the detective daniel Pelletier goes to smart's office unannounced starts talking to her hamm says what's up and he says well pam. I have some good news and I have some bad news. Good news is that we solve the the murder of your husband. Bad news is you're under arrest. She says what for and he says first degree murder. He stand up and face the wall, so that's how they arrest goes down, and he's gone on, multiple shows in tv shows and movies in that's like the got line that they may like to put out there.
I have a lot of time to sit down to read a book. A noise on the go going from one festival or made up to another and audible offers me an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Although I think I stick to mainly the aea, thrillers in true crime section as an audible member, I can choose one title a month, including the best sellers and new releases audible members get access to a growing selection of audio books. Audio originals and podcast are included with your membership. You can listen all you want in mortgage added every month, Gillian flynn is going be putting out a new book soon all the news about sherry, Peppino you might want to go back and give gone girl or listen? Let audible help discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days, visit audible
calm, slash gaeta BP were text J, w p, two five hundred five hundred; that's audible, dot com, slush judah, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days or more time, audible, dot, com, slash gdp at faxes, age, and why see? Is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series? American horror story created ryan, murphy and brad fell chuck with to all new. it's airing each week it promises be a season like no other it s, an y, see stars returning favorites like Zachary window and Billy lord, along with some fresh. Says including Russell Toby and Charlie carver. Something evil is coming ethics age, s and Y see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu. The teenagers will be Housed in this jail area- and this is a big- search for PAMELA because they say that
Well, now they're all get in their story straight, and it is a little odd that you have multiple people, accused of murder and you put in cells right next to each other, because now they can talk to each other. It's not typical practice, but it's not the end of the world either. They ve already pretty much talk to investigators and told everything so once there in jail cells that it doesn't. I don't know anyway, it's a bit to point to bring up because they say: that's it. That's an issue. All the boys implicate PAMELA, as the driving force as the organizer as the purse, who was telling them to do this and how to do it now It was really telling Billy, not all of them. It was
Billy. Who was the conduit for this plan and billy kind of recruited these other people in to help him now the prosecutor says, if you testify I against PAMELA. I will give you all second degree. Murder charges, as opposed to first degree and you'll, have a possibility pearl that that's key, because in new Hampshire, if you have first degree murmur conviction, you're not going to be purled yet so they agree and sincerely. On the other hand, she's gonna testify to but she's not charged with anything whether or not she was forthcoming with the police, investigators and the beginning about finding the gun, possibly not, but she is not charged. She wasn't in the car. She wasn't in the house,
ass. She really was on the periphery out on this plan you wonder because he seemed understand that something was probably going to happen. Absolutely she was in the know. Why didn't charge her or go after is I don't know? I guess I don't have an answer for that now, as this goes trial, can watch a lot of this trial on youtube. You can watch a lot of the testimonies that are happening, but before it even got air, it's all over. The news, this little new hampshire town is, is just. An onslaught of media and reporters. The defence team ask for a change of venue. Andy judge denies this. Ah the defence team ass for a delay.
in the trial for the you know for it to blow over or not be so hot, which the judge denies. That too. I kind of agree with the defense on the change of venue cause. This is a little town in that's the the biggest story. So how are you going to find impartial jurors here? The judge knows that this is to be a high profile thing, there's media everywhere, so I think the judge was being a little selfish myself on. I want this. I want to be in the limelight. You know I deserve it or something that up to that effect, Most people say that PAMELA smart was found guilty by the media and the public before it even went to trial its possibility. It absolutely is. There were things that
we're in the newspapers and tv shows, and the news about the story before it even was said in court. So if it was a mess, now income One of the investigators is testifying and he pretty much, laying out how cecilia and that the boys all knew about this. They all were engaged in this plan. Yet PAMELA add her defence is saying she had no prior knowledge of this of this plan for saying that she had no idea who murdered her husband. So put that in perspective she said and she was not in the know, even though cecilia and billy were very close friends of hers, so close that they were talking about.
Who oh he likes you in and things like that, then after her husband's murder, she has no clue who did it and so she's talking to cecilia on the phone and in person in she thinks it. She's doing her own investigation to find out who murdered her husband. That's that's her statement is I'm talking to cecilia, so I can figure out. What happened? Who did this? But as she knows to go talk to cecilia and billy, is her lover saw that she's having an affair with he's pretty obvious who killed her husband, and I don't think that she would have to do much investigative work to figure. mystery out her spanish and, of this whole conversation with cecilia seems ridiculous. When you hear it, it's very damning by her explanation is while I was trying to act like I knew something I was true
to portray that I was in the no. So cecilia would tell me or give me more detail why would cecilia be the with all the information. That's what I find curious exactly cause especially for whatever reason she can't come up with Billy as having been involved in this situation. So what is cecilia going to tell her that's my problem? with her whole statement and in this conference emission is she's. Not the police she's doing her own investigative work. She has no idea who kill her husband, but she knows exactly who to go talk to which is a high school student yeah, that's best friends with her lover, they would hang out a lot because PAMELA went by both of them along? So it is it very strange to me- and I am- it's down now, but PAMELA smart, As a support website- and we visited it and they make
big deal out of this. That will you can't understand anything being sad and that you know this is trying to get information from cecilia, so she pretended to be involved to get information. But let's put it this way, let's say the same argument that PAMELA was not involved and she he's lying to get more information from Cecilia? Well, do you really? I think you're going to get good information by muddying the water. How does that help it? It doesn't it's it's ridiculous up. Another thing that they talk about about the the tape. You know the alleged confession was cecilia. It is very poor quality audio You can't hear a lot of it. I talk to you every day on the phone aaron with my sprint phone and
What I hear about every other word, you say to me and I am able to figure out what you say. The prosecution is the one that has this tape. They play it for everyone in the courtroom, an they transcribing. The defence says that the transcription is wrong and that you can't figure it out, but the defence didn't have enough money, to hire their own expert to transcribe it. So they say there at a loss here, because there, the prosecution, had the funds to do all this. So their version of this conversation is gospel and they can't deny it, but it's not even really the parts that you can't hear that are the most damning parts. So I dont really see how this goes any other way. I dont here cecilia, saying that
Oh yeah? I know I had everything to do with it. You didn't know about this, like it just doesn't come out that way at all right. If anything, PAMELA comes across as being guilty. fact she tries to say well, I didn't pay them to do this. I didn't then they had to do it. I wasn't there I, somewhere else there all these excuses. But again you can coerce people to do things without giving them a check and- and more point about the whole conversation is during the conversation with cecilia. They establish that billy and his friends are the perpetrators of this murder. Does PAMELA smart go to police with this information? After the conversation, o thou be no right, yeah, let's with as this way. So if you go through the evidence here, there's stuff here that just its insurmountable, so you have the
who's in the room talking to her. So you have a witness their forget. What you ve transcribe forget, what's recorded, there's a witness talking to her. So her testimony backs up. Transcription yeah not only that, but here's something it's really curious Remember I said that PAMELA had to drive the boys over to havre hill to drop em off at the car. she was wearing jewelry and basically every finger and had next says around her neck because she was making. That if they ransacked the place, they wouldn't get the good jury. They would get other jury she's reign, the jewelry they end up getting jewelry, that's not quite as good, I would say: when she says that she didn't pay any one to do this, she did she let them ransacked the condominium and take whatever they want. If that's not payment, not dimension, there was a hundred,
forty thousand dollar hundred forty. Thousand dollars worth of life insurance on gregg. So if he d eyes. She gets a hundred forty thousand dollars. She can afford to give them five hundred dollars, apiece no sweat YAP, and I heard one thousand dollar a piece- but you know we're we're not going to split hairs here- five hundred thousand yeah- these are large amounts of money to high school students. Exactly if you think back to the the failed attempt where billy and raymond went to the condominium and then didn't do anything according to raman, they they went to the er where she's at to PAMELA's office, afterward And she's very upset when they hear that they didn't do it now, according to ramen they pop in the parking lot.
She comes out and get in the car and their having an argument. Raymond's actually not really involved. In this conversation, it's really does billion her and she screaming at em. They turn up the music, so people can hear the conversation and then they end up dropping offer Ayman and then she goes and drops off billy now, when Raymond first makes a statement- and they say, did she tell billy kill gregg raymond cotta says something the effective. I don't know I didn't talk to her technically he's come act. He never really did talk to her. She was always talking to Billy later on. He will read You re tell this story about them going in her getting in the car and having this conversation, and people will point this out as well. That's a discrepancy in a statement for
he says he doesn't know now, he's saying he absolutely was in the now you're young kid and I don't want to get yourself involved with this murder. I can kind of see why you're going to say I don't know. I didn't talk to her, but at the same time he wasn't exactly lying either way you as withholding information out. He is also the oldest one of the group yeah. So he was, while closer and age to pay le than the others were, and one of the things that said billy by PAMELA is that she said you must not love me. Otherwise, you would kill him when he's paroled, though he will recall the store, There is this documentary on h, b called captivated and as much as the film Her says it's not supposed to be a pro pamela, smart documentary, it very much, as I read its blade but at the end there talking to them and their time,
about the movies that are made in their saying. Will the sky must be miss remembering he must have watch the movie, and now he is thinking about it. But I don't get one the movie, they get it wrong. It shows billion going into the office and talking to her and the whole, happening in because, as I have happened, she came up to the car. So for somebody that miss remembering or creating a hole and higher seen in his own head. He actually corrects the movie, so I dont believe that he created this autumn, head because he remembering it the way it actually happened and he's correcting it. But at no point did they say: PAMELA hasn't me herself believe that she had no involvement and David then I'll, put that forth in this documentary, but though definite question all the boys in their statements. At the time we have some thoughts on that Joyce maynard wrote the book to die for, and the movie that they made from it. She went so far as to say that
there is a lot of her imagination at work in it, and so she doesn't really want peace. to use it as evidence against PAMELA either way. I mean were against. Sir, I mean it's, it's a movie. It's a story it's been fictional ized but like she said, though, the movies based off true then, so why would that even be in the movie? If it wasn't in a police statement or some other kind of testimony? She wouldn't put it in there I guess the thing with Joyce's she's when you go make a movie like this: they never make it fully truthful. They take their liberties, they take their liberties, and maybe for the movie it made a better scene or discussing it in the office rather than having the argument in the car. Maybe that would be a more difficult shoot. I have no idea- or maybe it just didn't play as well in her head, but as far as raymond, it's not coming out and saying originally what he should have. Well, sometimes people don't talk right away,
and it's not like he D being there, he was there. He just said I don't know, but he was in the car. I mean how much distance can you haven't a car? Obviously you heard everything that was said. Let's be honest, but even cecilia didn't give it all up the first encounter shared with police. She was like I don't know. I know she distanced herself also, so you getting a little bit of inconsistent statements, but it's kind of inconsistent because you can tell that they're trying to protect themselves at four and then they are coming clean later. I think, what's at work here, as you have friendships on the line, We already said that PAMELA Celia became good friends, and I think it's that situation. until they get some distance between them and some distance in time. It's difficult for people just to come clean. You have that sense to protect some. That you care about with raymond. You know what's
he's on the line his by his on the line. There's this woman that his buddy loves is on the line and it's. This is a difficult situation but later on, allow these people come clean and start to talk and tell exactly what happened and billy and the others they wool it met on the stand that this was premeditated and planned. out. I have kind of an issue with their plea bargain they took cause they're getting second degree. Murder charges which have a possibility, role, but on the stand there talking about how they literally committed a first to murder kind of back to my whole plea bargains only help the guilty and dont really do much, for innocent, but you know I will move on from one. We should move on just yet, because I do think in his pointing out that Billy and pete junior their minors
We've talked about it before. When you sentence a minor, you say you can never be paroled you're in for life. It's tough they're charging them and sentencing them as adults, though, but but they're still taking that into consideration right there they're trying to play it both ways, but I guess what I'm trying to say is we cover it with the Brian shepard case, where you're saying that the supreme court has said that seventeen or six What have you it's too young? You can't say that person, your entire life is wiped away because of something you did and as something things that happen with some people like with Billy what he did was horrible but he still a minor and we're not gonna get into just yet, but we'll talk
Oh how someone like Billy could be driven the murder for pans defence. They brought actually one of greg's friends onto the stand to testify that he had a conversation. With PAMELA smart about the conversation she had with cecilia and her saying that she was giving up more information and and saying she knew something about this to get cecilia talking and apparently, this other friend of greg's had a conversation with her about it. So that's the defences retort but doesn't mean. She's telling the truth done even mean a really happened, but he was on the stand to testify for the defence, which is a little telling, has its one.
briggs france, when PAMELA, gets on the stand. The defence throws her soft balls and lets her tell her story, but she does talk about gregg. Cheat honor, which I might well just gives you more motive to kill him the count know how that helps you. They talk about how He was playing this game with cecilia to give more information, but yet the audio, isn't you know we can hear say it's it's. Just a mass prosecution gets up there in my mind, destroys her. She is talking in circles and she has nowhere to go. The prosecution has completely Intro that courtroom an PAMELA smart will they have too much on their side they're holding all the best cards. Pamela, I think, is holding a card that hurts her throughout the case, which is arrogance she really believes that she smarter than everybody
that she had. This whole thing figure it out so I'm sure there are people out there that believe that PAMELA, smart is innocent, had nothing to do with it or, at the very least there not convinced that the prosecution was able to show that she did this or had a hand in it, but I think most people will find that there's just too much stacked against her here now most of its reasonable most of it is you have people that were involved in the murder or planning it have come out and admitted to it and you have other evidence that supports that physical evidence, yet the life insurance policy. The cheating that spells. They are the motivations for her, although I would argue that their drifting apart and her now on a divorce. That's that's behind allow these spousal murders is someone just does not see divorce as a reasonable
x, ray out is a reasonable exit. So is it just gonna happen that way, there's property involved there's a dog involved, so she didn't quite understand her place in all of this. I thought I know she would never have done this, but She would have done herself some favours by going to the police first. Is she really would have and she would have gone directly to them and talk to them even said billy flynn dead this you know. Is it in her head that her and billy can be together now that Greg's out of the picture, and that's why she didn't go to them? You know who knows I yeah, let's, we could talk about that and here's a scenario that probably would workforce just gonna police and said yeah is telling Billy that my and was a horrible person that I wanted him gone and he took it too far chap she told because he could have done that and then everything billy. What a so you know
that may not have worked in his favour anymore. I would been like while you it would have presented a scenario where she's the one that came to them and talk to them first, but she never tried that, and I think it's because in her head. She didn't do anything wrong again. We can point out she she pulled up in the car cheese, bring all that jewelry because she doesn't want them to get she's driving them to get the car she's, the one that told them how to do it. She she's one that told them what kind of closed aware to wear. Gloves. And she laid out the whole scenario they put the dog away. Just like she wanted them to every thing was done the way she wanted out. According to her, none of that happened in its all made up. cecilia made it all up and all all the boys made up all the stuff
it's to save their own asses and implicate her, so they could get reduced sentences. The high school students she's the adult, the high school students were more sophisticated than she was. Apparently she is very smart. This is such a problem for me because we ve already set it to hurt. Her academic record speaks for itself, yeah she's, a very capable person, but again, if you want to find how if you want to discover what brings down someone who's, intelligent, its arrogance, and that is what I keep seeing with her. She just thinks that she's, just so much smarter than everybody, and that she is, she believe, she's going to get away with it. You brought it up. There are problems with the trial. The is not really fair. The way that they disorder pushed it out really quickly.
and didn't move the venue, and we can argue that all day long, I think the venue thing is the most important. I know it. It became national news and away, but I think there is something about people who live in the town, yet that your more apt to find people who are biased, that's my biggest issue was that no change of in you, but, I think, say, casey anthony o J simpson. They were found not guilty with the same amount of coverage, so six of one half dozen of the other yeah. I see it the problem, but I don't know how much a factored in it's one of those things, that's more of a technicality, but really, I think he could run this trial ten times in ten different areas, and I I would be surprised if it went any other way so
billy flynn received forty years to life eligible for parole after twenty five years, and he is granted pearl and twenty fifteen patrick randal forty years to life is eligible for a pearl and he may burrow in two thousand and nine Vance blasphemy lotta me thirty years to life, and he got to reduce emissions and was purled in two thousand and five raymond fowler fifteen to thirty years, and he was poor. in two thousand and three PAMELA smart for first degree accessory to murder got life without the possibility of pearl. A few things that stuck out to me is none of these people have a recanted their statements or come out in support of PAMELA
since their pearl they're, not saying oh yeah. We we wrongfully convicted this person. We see that we see the lottery comments, we see people come out and support up, and none of them are. PAMELA has appealed this. I think at least three times basing it off of the media coverage, making it an unfair trial. You know they didn't change. The venue she's had some valley, points on her appeals. Every single one of them has been denied, so she is changed tactics and now she wants to go with a pardon because, as the only way she can get out she's pissed off that.
All the people that were actually physically involved with the murder are out of prison and she's not gonna get at any time soon, so the actual trigger man, the getaway driver, all these people that had a hand in it are free and she has no chance of being free, because in that state heads no possibility parole, so she's trying to say that's cruel and unusual or is harsh as we ve been on PAMELA for this entire
for episode. I actually have to say that I think she deserves the possibility of parole the possibility, I'm not saying you, should I'm not saying that she needs to be out. She's learned her lesson, I'm just saying she needs that possibility. I looked up multiple murder for hire cases where people have been caught red handed trying to hire somebody to murder somebody else. Most of them got between twenty to forty years. For this one, a x police officer murdered his wife and then hired a hitman to kill the prosecutor. He got thirty eight years for murdering his wife, and then he got forty years for the murder for hire. We have murders and rape is that our paroled after seven to ten years, I kind of thank her son
it's is a little unfair. I dunno I mean somebody get somebody to murder somebody they can rot in prison right, but I I think she should at least be allowed a possibility of parole myself, but how many of those cases happened in new Hampshire, exactly most of them were in other states that you know that they have a possibility. Parole. Even a life sentence has a possibility, parole, new hampshire does not the either law were arguing over something that new Hampshire decided that they are in favour of which is, if you plan someone's murder and carry it out. You can never be let out. One of the things that really stands out in this case to me is that gregg smarts family were not against the decision to parole these guys
Now that they said that is as long as they acknowledge what they ve done and show remorse, they ve done their time in and there okay with them, if they know that they have made a mistake, sir, This is where they ve also made comments about PAMELA smart, because PAMELA smarts been rather aggressive, as you said. Well, how come they get to be led out. There are already out, and I'm still locked away in. I was even there. This is a complete misunderstanding on her part: greg summers family, his brother dean, his uncle rick. They have said they would love to her admit to what she did to show remorse, but she hasn't done it, and so they don't even want. To say they support any kind of parole action, even though she is not really eligible for it, but they say they can't support anything like that, because she's, not acknowledged her complicity in this,
On her side she sang will, I didn't, have a part in it, but let's be honest here, the evidence shows that she did have a hand in it. She was the one who organise this she's, not taking any kind of accountability, here since she's in new Hampshire she's stock with lay in prison, stuck with new hampshire law, but I will say this: you're saying she should have parole. I think parole in this case not actually giving it to her, but the possibility of it might and must not for sure, But might be the care that is needed for it Have some sort of reflection and reconsideration of how she's handle this whole thing because if she knew she might be able to get out. Maybe then sheet and we admit. Ok, I was telling Billy that gregg needed to go if she could start there
who knows we might have a little better reconciliation here, because people do forgive yeah, they dont forget, but they might forget and we have already seen gregg smarts family. They were there for the hearing. When William flynn was granted parole, which I think on his birthday, they sitting there just a nature said: you know. We hope you do something good with your life, We don't want you go into the media, but please make a difference with your life and he acknowledged that flynn said. I do feel like. I need to tip the scales. back again, there was understanding there, he admitted being the murderer. This is the guy that is said to have pulled the trigger and killed their son, their cool with him being locked up in the thing is is bill: smart, who is gregory smarts dad he had died previously by all along the way he had said he wants PAMELA to admit they are not comfortable with her
maintaining our innocence when they know better, they What happened? They just don't appreciate that there's! No, they they can ever support her ever getting How did they can never let her out without her acknowledging what she's done they? She has to admit that what she did was wrong. Otherwise she hasn't learned a lesson. She hasn't figured anything out. I personally don't really care of her prisoner shows any type of remorse, but I think an acknowledgment is important. I mean anyone can see I'm sorry for what I've done. I mean I think it's
You can lie your way out of prison if that's all it takes, but just acknowledging that yeah this. This was me- and I did this and that's your first step to bettering yourself and becoming a better person, and if you can do that, then maybe letting you out isn't the best thing right when you've lied for so long and someone's giving you that opportunity to come clean and you don't take it, it makes them angry or it hurts them more and that's what they're getting from PAMELA The
do you hear that its little space for mindfulness become? Is a meditation pie? Guest in fifteen minutes, alas, become your space to unwind, listen exclusively on amazon, music or simply tell your echo device alexa play the podcast become
Transcript generated on 2022-10-16.