This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by peacock, presenting the original limited series, a friend of the family on this story of the Jan proper kidnappings from nickel oscar executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer, eliza hip, comes out. And compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produced which and robert herself. This theory stars anna pack when jake lazy, common hanks, LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream. Now only on peacock taxes yes and y. See is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series. American horror story crate by ryan murphy and brad fell. Chuck with to all episodes airing each week. It promises to be a season like no other it s. An Y see stars returning favorites like Zachary window and Billy lord, along fresh faces, including Russell Toby and Charlie carver, some evil is coming at back.
The age ass and Y see premiers october nineteenth on ethics stream on hulu the her voice. It's got bonn criminology, professor ad. Who university in madison new jersey. I am also in an author and blogger. I have a regular column on psychology today that calm called wicked deeds. I blog about crime related issues and a lot of things about does serial killers and mass murders and so forth and dumb. I recently wrote a book called:
We love serial killers. The curious appeal of the world's most savage murderers and it's a I would call it s. A pop culture, look at cereal killers in our society, and so it's a little bit different rather than being a purely act, emma treatise and analytical approach and read and being a true crime sort of rendition. What I try to do is is look at serial killers, how they act they serve as a mirror, a very dark mirror of society itself, and I- and I think that that is part of the appeal of serial killers that that people are just absolutely fascinated by and compelled to understand why serial killers are drawn to kill people who are typically strangers. They don't kill people that they know normally its complete strain.
and they do so for their own amusement. It's not out of rage its. Out of any of vengeance, door or or even greed. Typically, it has more much more to do with some sort of He was, a young, a fantasy need that killing serbs, and that's just so far and straight, from the than normal, a of of human beings. That dog were compelled to understand it. Erin and I were talking about the definition of a serial killer and it's really the ones that you fine, I'm online or just somebody that murders three or more people over the course of a month or longer and that really leaves something to be desired there so like what would Where would you kind of define the cereal
miller generally as ok what I it's also a great question and, as you indicated, there is considerable debate about it up until nineteen, seventy four, the term serial killer, didn't exist? It was coined that year by a gentleman by the name of robert ressler, one of the premier f b, I profilers from a quantico virginia in the f b. I who fortunately died about a year ago, but he's the one who came up with the term serial killer before that they were referred to as mass murderers, and they were TIM typically lumped together with mass murderers. A mass murder is a one time.
and like the newtown shooting or columbine, or the colorado movie, theater shooting perpetrated by James holmes. Those are mass murderers. Serial killings are a series of of of events and the f b I's classic definition, the one that they came up with in the seventies it you just alluded to, which was three three victims at minimum in separate crime, scenes and events and here's the key That these events have what is known as any more emotional cooling off period on the part of the perpetrator between them and their. This is where the ted andy's in the jeffrey Dahmer is and so forth will blend back into society and seemingly normal wives, and they just go about their business. They live data day and functioning, psyche until this bizarre,
overwhelming need to kill this bloodless comes over them again. Now. That's the class at classic definition, however, to confuse things were agreed, is provided to create some confusion in two thousand and five, the f b. I changed the definition somewhere, They reduced the number of killings to too, and they also eliminated the emotional cooling off period. Now, why did they do that? They said that, for the purposes of investigation for the purposes of tracking these individuals and linking the crime scenes and going about the business
profiling them that the it didn't matter, whether it was two or three and the emotional cooling off period didn't seem to back matter now. From my perspective, because my book is really more of a look at the true what I call celebrity monsters who have emerged among serial killers, the ted Bundy's, the jeffrey Dahmer is the son of son of SAM Boston, strangler, zodiac on and on these individuals, fit that classic definition the three or more, with the emotional cooling off period so retain that. I use that for it in in my book, because I think it's important from a pop culture perspective. You know when one of the allures one of the one of the the cob but enticing things about people like ted Bundy, is their ability to blend back into society and seemingly function as extremely normal individuals. Some of them are just incredibly normal
gentlemen that I corresponded with extensively furs several years and who I write about quite a bit in my book, is a guy anyway and ass, a writer who called himself named himself, bind torture, kill, buying, be ironed d as entire torture and kill. He gave himself that name and here's a guy who was the president of his lutheran church association. He was a boy scout leader, he ran a business. He was to the outside world on it to everyone. Looking on, seemingly is normal is as apple pie and he was met and he had two children that he raised there there, I believe in their forties, now Dennis raiders sixty six and it took them thirty years to catch this guy. He was so I'm assuming it literally took them thirty years to catch him, and so it's it's the Dennis, rader and the end and the son of stands in the ted Bundy. Is that right
we become these celebrity monsters in our popular culture, a better, almost glorified through movies and books and poems and jokes- and you know Jeffrey Dahmer, a cannibal, jokes, etc. And so I maintain that original definition of three or more but the cooling off period d. Do you have like a sub category? Does I would put like, John wayne Gacy and maybe the cleveland strangler until one category output, ted Bundy richard ramirez into another category, more or less kind of saw their motives, but I've yap absolutely be on that. The one thing that serial killers have in common and people ask me this all the time is. Is you know what what what is the common thread? The common thread is, this is a fantasy need, their killings serve some sort of a fantasy need when
I should I even back up here and give a little more information. Serial killers are extremely rare. They represent less than put than one per cent less than one percent of all homicides every year. Now that's a good thing. You know, that's that's good, but at the same time it is. The part of the fascination is the fact that they kill for different reasons. They kill out of a hat, Fantasy need out of some it in many cases, they're not even sure why they kill they're, just driven compulsively to do it Dennis rader BT k once again, he he he didn't know how to describe this compulsion, but he had a name for it. He called it factor x, and he said he told me when factor x comes over him, it's absolutely there's, no denying it and that the the they fantasize about these killings and
and they work themselves up almost like foreplay. It's almost a sexual thing. They worked themselves up into a you know, a fever and when it raised reaches a certain point, a tipping point they can denied any longer and they have to go out and kill, and that is very different. then, the than the characteristics of the average homicide in the united states but most murders in the united states, of which there are approximately fifteen thousand now annually, fifteen thousand murders, the majority of them are not first degree premeditated murders with deliberation where someone thinks about it in advance the planet and they go and kill the way a serial killer does, was much more likely is to get into a bar room brawl with somebody that you never met before and it escalates into a murder. So most murders are actually second degree, murders where there's no premeditation or deliberation, but someone becomes enraged and decides to kill another.
in the heat of the moment or manslaughter where there is no intent to kill it all, and it ends up as an accident at of say, a bar room brought where there is no intent to kill. Those are my far more likely scenarios. Then the premeditated urge jack jack, the Ripper Jeffrey dahmer ted Bundy, sort of cyril killings How does this cooling off period work? I imagine that some serial killers their period could a month and for others it could be several months at you, absolutely it it can be. It can be days weeks months and in the case,
dennis raider, beating K it even was years from scratch, sometimes and been dead. Motive that drives them to kill is not necessarily sexual. In nature, its its believed that about fifty percent of Cyril killings committed by men are sexual in nature, but the other fifty percent are more about, say, domination and control it. The killing might be much more related to just physically having control of life and death over it over in individual. It might not even necessarily be about sex, but what some of them are able to do and bt k was notorious in this regard is he would save trophies an souvenirs
it's from his victims from these women. He would keep scarves include, item of clothing and identification, photographs, tat, sort of thing and and keep them in in literally a treasure chest, and which he called the mother lode. He kept this in his let basement locked up and what he would do from time to time is when he would feel this urge coming on. He would dress up cutouts and dolls in this, vanilla and he would relieve his crimes literally fantasizing relive his killings, and this sometimes would give him enough satisfaction that it would inhibit him from having to go out and kill it, and so he had at a very visceral level he I knew what he was doing was wrong and he even tried to control it and in some way he but it would. It ultimately would reach a point that this these reenactments and auto erotic fantasy, wouldn't be enough.
Sustain him, always wonder if if they see it's wrong or if they just know that society views it. Being wrong and evil. Therefore they cover up their actions. While that that's a great question to you know, a lot of these individuals are psychopaths and I should define what a psychopath is and and a psychopathic individual is one who is for all extents and purposes just completely unplugged from human emotion empathy, they can't feel it they they they know, excitement they know exhilaration adrenaline, that kind of thing, but in terms of fear,
terms of us remorse pity those sorts of emotions they just don't feel. Consequently, they are able to do these horrible things to people with with no sense of conflict or remorse whatsoever, and as such they are not mentally ill. They I'm the things that these do, you might say: well, how can they not be crazy, killing and eating people well from the criminal justice perspective from the standpoint of the law, if in it Visual knows something is wrong. When they do it, but Do it anyway, then they're, not in saying so most serial killers. In fact, the vast majority do not fit the definition of not guilty by reason of insanity, because they know it's wrong. They simply do not care.
what makes someone like a ted Bundy or a jeffrey Dahmer or a dennis raider, so shelling, and so so frightening is that they are able to mimic emotions quite well. Dennis raider was able to fool his his own molly for thirty years they they had no idea that he was doing these things because he knew what to say. He knew the right to do in any new, the right reactions and he could mimic them. He simply didn't feel them and ass such these visuals rarely made mistakes there very cold blooded in calculating. They rarely make mistakes because they have no fear. They had no fear of of being caught or orbs or remorse about what they do. So they there. They rarely make mistakes and
damn that's what makes them so and on on one hand, so such a curiosity and so fascinating, but it also is what makes them so prolific and able to get away with it for so long a bundy killed. Thirty six women, Gary ridgway, the green river killer, killed forty three. Women, so these individuals are are unfortunately very good at what they do. and there's somebody dimensions there that you're right it. That is what makes us you know intrigued by this subject and what makes people two no more. How can somebody do these horrible things? What what drives them? What is their motivation and in its kind it. disgusting on one side because verity bad guy a work of all giving them the the focus in. But yet it's their actions that.
Appeal to us as far as interest goes and yeah, yeah, absolutely and, and- and one of the analogies that I use- and I I think it's a fairly apt analogy- is serial killers are very much like a like. A great white shark is in nature, they're, rare they're, quite exotic and they're, also quite deadly, and it's that combination of factors being rare, exotic and deadly. That is. I think compelling to a lot of people. I mean we actually have a shark week in. You know that we that we celebrate down in society thanks to the discovery network, and we don't we don't get, have a serial killer weak, but I wouldn't be surprised if one is coming down the road you know, given the appeal of all of these shows the csi shows and and following a true detective and hannibal and criminal mines, and on and on and on we risk. It's a very clear indication that we are
You know that we are, you know or are very interested in this stuff, and but you know what happens in, and this is one of the the argues sir, and actually one of the main points of my book is. I contend that there's a blurring effect that happens in them in the mass media and in entertainment, where Jeffrey Dahmer becomes almost synonymous with Hannibal, the cannibal lecter and their described and very much the same is pure. Evil is monsters, vampires dracula, they use all these sort of terms, and in fact it happened very very. I think, knowingly in ninety ninety one when that was the year. The Jeffrey Dahmer was finally cod and it was also the same year. The silence of the lambs came out in the movie. Theatres and Geoffrey Dahmer was refer.
two as the real life hannibal lecter- and I think often times these individuals become, as I said, sort of interchangeable and to the average person. It almost doesn't matter whether watching the news and their sea and their seeing the story of a real life serial killer or the watch the following are true, detective or criminal mines. It's all entertainment, it's all popcorn entertainment and we by tee shirts and we we buy books in movies and, as I said, Jeffrey Dahmer jokes were still the popular culture they are. They know they are very much an entertainment commodity and what that does is it. I argue it numbs us and- and we become callous to the fact that these individuals are killing real innocent people. In the case of ted,
he killed thirty six women at least, and yet can anyone remember the name of one of these women? We all know TED Bundy, but can anyone remember the names of these women and an active? It's an indication of the focus is on the young The celebrity monster, as I said, I We want to take a moment to give some time for a sponsor audible. They carry a hundred and fifty thousand titles. Say currently reading. listening to revival by stephen king, which is pretty good? I, like the couple of as other one better. But I'm in the middle of listening to that our current author on right now, Scott his book is called why We love serial killers and I'm about to go pick that one up to sounds great This is why we had the author on is he actually goes, to Syria killers. Our angle, our fascination with them and our questions so
If anybody out there is fascinated by serial killers or why they do they do or did them the media's fascination with them, feeding feeding our interest. Then this book, A lot of answers for you so out highly suggest, especially if we it's, not your thing or you have a long commute. Definitely you could pick this pick this up from audible, dot com. You could pick this up and I would say your questions will be answered. It's it's a pretty complete, complete book on the subject, at least from. our point of view and from our questions that we have about serial killers in going out on amazon and a few other sites looking at the ratings of his book? That's mostly all five star ratings, but if you're one of the people wants to read at one star audible allows you to returned the book. No questions asked
Now, though, let you take out another both right and if you want to get a free book from our ball, we have to do is go to w w w dot, audible, podcast, dot com forwards. Ash generation. Why that's g and he are eighty, oh and w h. Why and you can get a free audio book Bobby. mentioned that the serial killers often keep mementos it's interesting when we admiral Delia. Yet there are people in the public who want to keep mementoes from these serial killers. Oh my god, you're! Absolutely right. I devote the eleventh chapter in fact of my book to that. Nominal? I talk a bit about groupies. There are you know there are those who are particularly women, who
interested in these individuals, which could be a whole topic for a show unto itself. I call it it's the bad boy effect on steroids. You know he's Edith, he may be bad, but you know he's my Charlie Manson. You know he's my face: my ted Bundy and dumb, and and, as you know, Manson has been a went to this young woman, although that now it looks like the depending nuptials or off, but but but as you mentioned, there are individuals who may not be the groupies but nevertheless collect these so called murder Amelia in a murder, memorabilia called murder. Amelia of these individuals. People literally collect tonia clippings in an hair clippings from from death row from these from these people and articles of clothing and photographs.
in an sign or doodles that ate some of them are are artists and they paint and dry in prison and and these these works of art such as self, are actually quite a lot of money. One of the one of the craziest things of all, I'm what it's all pretty crazy, but one of them that I did really struck me. There was a female serial killer, which debunks another mystery myth that there are no female circle. There definitely are. There was one out in california, her name was Dorothea twenty and latina, who was a black widow serial killer. She was, she was poisoning her elderly housekeeper, She ran a roominghouse and she would knock them down for their insurance money in and government money and and kill them and she'd bury them in her back she had a burial ground. You can actually be I am not making this up little plastic baggies of soil from her burial,
round in her backyard by this step, one on the internet, There are actually website dedicated to the sale of this stuff. It's him in truth is stranger than fiction, but but people do collect the stuff. I only get a problem when, if somebody is contacting say, John Wayne Gacy imprison sending him money for a painting. I don't I don't agree with that. as far as the the market for murder billion. I dont mind if you ve cross, say a knife that was used and now you the individual, not the murderer. To resell it or gifted or whatever. I dont have as much of a problem there, as I do with people that directly, associate with the murderer themselves. Trying to get letter
yours or toenails or whatever it is you get? What actually, you know you're bringing up an important point that I feel that I go into an in my book. Is the these individuals a convicted felons are not allowed to benefit financially directly from their creative work like telling their stories, and there is actually a series The boys called the son of sam laws that are as a result of of data berkowitz, who I also corresponded with extensively and met with in prison because he was offered Literally millions of dollars for his story after he was caught in it and incarcerated, and the state of new york said: there's no way that's going to happen. So there are laws that keep these guys from benefiting financially from their stories, but also they there's. There's a laws called notoriety for profit laws, and these are at a state level and as eight and eight or ten states that have them now
they cannot benefit financially by selling their stuff, whether as their toenails or their you know works of art or whatever. But, as you indicated, there's middle men there agents who will develop relationships with these guys in prison and say hey once you start painting and I'll be your agent sent. Send me to stop now. It's the It's the middle men, the agents who who are legally We are able to sell this stuff and make money, but there's nothing to keep them, there's absolutely nothing to keep them from standing a little bit of cash to these. These prisoners were sending them. Give sir or things like that? As well as long as the as long, the the killers, are not directly selling things to the public and and benefiting financially. For example, although she's no
a serial killer, jodi Arias, the one who was convicted of killing her former boyfriend in in arizona last year. She was she was selling her a courtroom doodles. You know she, she was a photographer and actually a pretty pretty good artist He was selling her courtroom, doodles and and drawings on Ebay. Up until the point that she was found guilty and now she can no longer do, the always really wanted that amazon that stuff that is discounted if you're, naughty or nice. The recognize employees with custom ink show custom
appreciation with custom ink outfit. Your teams with custom ink easily add your logo to your favorite products and brands at custom. Ink dot com make customize your custom gear partner with great customer service, quality products and all in pricing, along with personalized help when you need it and an easy to use website all backed by a one hundred percent satisfaction guarantee do at all today at custom ink dot, com wow, I I didn't even think about they could do it up until the point there guilty that's right and fill until they may become a convicted phelan. It's totally. Do we have some understanding of the thoughts
or the feelings or emotions that people who collect these items feel when they get say dollars? Watch yeah? Absolutely I mean it's there's a range of its a great. Question and again I go into this to quite an extent in in in my book there. It serves a multitude of purposes some of these individuals. I want to simply get close to infamy, you know, and it gives him a thrill sort of a vicarious thrill of being close to these individuals. In some cases- and this gets more to the groupie thing- they think that they have
that that the criminals are misunderstood, souls that only they understand and that's the kind of a bad boy thing. You know he meant he may be a bad boy, but he's my bad boy and I can fix it in also there's a bit of that goin on. But there is also something called the talisman effect at all. If you ve ever heard of it, the talisman effect and I've had people heard people described that what it is is a sense that these these artifacts have almost magical powers, that people like ted Bundy in jeopardy. Dahmer are somehow unique individuals that that are almost from like an another world and that they have magical powers. Associate it with them, even if these are dark powers and that by somehow holding something or touching something that they had it. It will imbue upon you these these magical forces in and maybe even be, a protective force of some kinds, call the talisman effect, and I've heard enough people too,
right back. So it's sort of like haley's comment: it only zoran gay so many years every somebody years, so it must mean something! It has importance exactly exactly, and some of these things go for big money, John wayne Gacy, who was a a very prolific painter on death row, and he painted his. His alter ego was pogo. The clown you're allowed to listeners are probably aware that and or or perhaps not but I'll I'll, explain I, in addition to being a prolific serial killer, he is his hobby other than killing was going to children's hospitals dressed up as a clown named pogo, and he would entertain them. This was this was literally his hobby. Well, he was he was obsessed with clowns.
and when he was on death row, he began painting a series of cloud campaigning. He painted other things too, but mostly clowns. His paintings gopher twenty five, thirty thousand dollars apiece. We have a friend here in Kansas city, has an oddity shop at new arts and oddities and she sells. You know like a baby food- in a jar, old medical equipment and its interesting that either Those items you know something from you know kane you know something from the past is still treasured today, but she will get people in her shop all the time that offer to sell her things like murder billions. and it s kind of, is a different subset of different genre of the oddities. And then I guess that the power of what we think the history that society holds dear, I guess yeah at absolutely n n n it. Yet
certainly is a young arabs and obsessed subculture of of individuals and I'll tell you a quick little story. Something that that I was given. That certainly would be. I married a rebel yeah, but I have no intention of of of selling it or or getting rid of it. I don't intend to or want to profit from it. It's it's, but it's certainly a curiosity. I, in my correspondence with with bt k, dent dennis you're buying torture kill after a year or so I got a package from him and in it was a actually a quite lovely hand painted card a little larger than a standard postcards of a floral arrangement, flowers in a vase, and I'm thinking why the heck would with dennis rate or send me this and I slipped it over and it was
find Dana sue great date, data that female named Dana sue, gray and I oh, who Dana superiors she's a female serial killer, whose serving multiple life sentences in california for for killing three men out there. Well, here's the story, the dennis explains it to me in his letter he says scott. This woman sent this to me sue, gray, she's she's got a thing for me and dumb. Who does she think she is? She only killed. Three p well she's, not even in my week so here you can have. It were true story. That's that I don't even yeah that's shock and awe right there hearing that reaction, not even in my league, yet he is not even in my league here. So I was basically, I was re gifted of a little love token from one serial killer. there. But you have this great story that goes with it gap. Absolutely absolutely will
another author. We had on Kevin Sullivan and he he got the the kill bag ted Bundy schoolbag, which allowed inspired him to write the book now he got the bag from a police officer detected that you know had. It is evident. So wasn't he has one of the trash bags, he should say yeah yeah so, but he He has no intention of selling it and I don't I don't fault him or you for accepting a gift. You know it's not to me. It's you didn't pay for it. You this guy, do not benefit from you receiving this item right right? It's it's a It's an oddity in and another thing that debt The dead dennis rater dies. It's it's fastened. It gets to his meticulous mine by the way this guy's, an absolutely meticulous individual who is not only a psychopath but a complete narcissist immunity is just absolutely self exist, but what he does he?
he's not allowed to have a computer or any art supplies other them little colored pencils, and so he creates his own prison stationary using color pencils and I it it looks like business stationery and he literally at the top it is signed. It says, from the desk of of Dennis L, rader established two thousand two thousand and five, which is the year that he went to prison and what he does is he's created. He's got two different us prison logos, wine, as he he takes. The d of of Dennis puts it on it's back so that it's like a a cave so that it looks like a little. You know an open cave and every Peter has a picture of something happening in the cave and it's usually seasonably correct. So it might be a snow man in the winner or birds edge. Being and and flowers in the spring,
and every one of his letters comes personalized. That way- and he signs each letter Dennis but did name dennis- is in the form of a shark, so he's actually created his own prison logo and in a shark because that's how he sees himself he sees himself as a as a shark. Do many of these captive serial killers, the need to stay relevant ending upon their motivation absolutely end and dumb and Denis raider is right at the top of that he. He is a complete narcissist once again and he has just recently in addition to your corresponding with me. He very much wanted to come out with his own official autobiography and the problem with that is is he's. As I said, he is not allowed to financially.
If it in any way from his own story and in fact there he, Has an a number of these killers often have the vip their victims, families in a consortium or a group that will attempt to block any thing that they do and to achieve additional infamy or any kind of financial companies. Patient for their work, so Dennis actually worked with the victims. Lawyers and bright in an author, and there is the official Bt K book is gonna, be coming out and only dennis raider can do. He issued essentially a press release from his prison cell. Saying look what I am doing. I'm gonna write this book because people need to hear my story. They need to understand me because I'm so fascinating and I'm gonna contribute the money to the victims. Families aren't I a great person now
what what he is confusing there and obscuring for for the public is the fact that the only reason that he can even put this book out is because all the money is going through the victor the families that so he he? I he's confused that and, of course, it's all about him and therefore he believes that society will benefit from learning about the great man and by the way I should add that that's very much the way I got him to correspond with me. I played clarice starling, you know from the silence of the and and when I wrote my first letter to him. I said that MR rader, I'm a criminologist, a college professor, and I want to write a book about the public's fascination with serial killers, and I- and I think I can learn from you- well guess what he wrote back immediately immediately, because He wants to remain relevant. Have you ever seen need the documentary I survived. Bt K, I actually have not know, heather, it's out on networks. It's it's ok,
As you know, quality production wise, but get it it's one. The surviving children of the family, that BT k wiped out o and he's the main care you're in the documentary and just follows him around, but it shows how his life has pretty much turned to utter crap. Because of this event- and it's really sad because he has terrible-
his family is surviving family members and whatever it's it's really a heart wrenching to watch, but at the same time it I think it it focuses on the victim and not so much on, dennis yeah yeah it. It it from what you're describing it sounds like it was. The terror of family is, first, is first murder Dennis raiders. First killing was in fact a mass murder. He he miscalculated. He went to the house expecting to find just the daughter, but most of the family members were were home, and so he did get at. In his words, I didn't get all dressed up or nothin.
It killed the entire well all of the family members who are home, but a couple of them were not and that's that I suspect that that's the what you're referring to there yeah it was the son. I forgot his name now, but the whole movie pretty much follows him around and his current current life. And it's it's sad. You know and and and I you bring up such a good point, because it's not only the victims survive the the surviving family members, of the of the victims. But I would also add in the families of the the serial killers themselves, because Jeffrey dollars father and mother went through absolute hell, as they were scrutinised in and ridiculed yet when when Jeffrey Dahmer was was caught, and so the victims come in many forms in I would. I would suggest that you know the killers themselves and and and Denis raiders wife, Paula, has come at just completely going into secludes seclusion, the only one
who's made. Any real public statements are his his daughter demonstrators daughter his son, is the only one who actually visits denison in prison. The theme, the former wife and and daughter do not, but these individuals have been, you know, had their life's torn apart I only know about bt because he was in Wichita Kansas, which isn't too far from kansas city. So that's right. and I would I would go as far as to say that if he had been killing in new york city, as opposed to Wichita Kansas, which, as you know, it's it- I mean it's a it's a major city, but not a bit. You know the size of new york or angeles BT k would probably he met the men of most notorious you're, a killer of all time because of the nature of his killings fact that they went on for so long and he wasn't apprehended and its possible
that if he was doing those in a bigger city, he might have been able to get away with a lot more yeah absolutely absolutely and dumb yeah. I got it Oh a gentleman who was just so helpful to me in my research and an dom is, as just Anna Maria real gentleman is name is roy hazel wood and he one of the three original f fbi profiles, therein quantico virginia it with it, was John Douglas, who has written a lot of books, bob wrestler, the one who died recently, who who came up with up at the terms killer, and then Roy hazel with an hazel would has entered, them all. He interview, Dahmer and Gacy and Bundy and all of them- and he said without a doubt he said the most stone cold psychopath that he's ever been around is dennis raider yeah. That's something that's completely believable if anyone were word,
over the images of all these men, I would totally he just by looking at a single image that Dennis raider fits that yeah, you boy, he, the heat, completely dehumanizing his arm his his victim seated, they weren't victims, they weren't even humans. They were projects he referred to. Them is interesting projects and it felt nothing more than yeah. Yet the way he would explain his murders- and who in letters and as well as he did in in non court after he was, he was caught it he met, I was never even a trial. He he admitted to his guilt right away and I believe the reason he did so is it allowed him to have. The grandstand is to sit there and explain what he did and how it took authorities thirty years to catch him, so he was able to you know, put himself in this position of of uh. You know once again of superiority and in
most the same fashion. If someone would describe a recipe or how to build a model airplane, that's the way he would describe torture and dismemberment. It was just it's it's just incomprehensible. Do you think that serial killers adieu sabotage themselves. So they'll get caught. You know that's great question and it's it's one of the great myths out there. I call it a myth and in fact, chapter two of my book. I completely divorced two debunking a number of nets about serial killers. One, they're all men too, that there are white three
that they're all evil, geniuses and and one of the mist is the the fact that they want to get caught. They they do not. I do not believe that the vast majority of them- I don't want to say that that none of them do, but the vast majority do not they enjoy killing. Far too much. I think here's what happens is they some of them eventually get careless and sloppy? You can't kill forever without making a mistake, and the classic example here is a guy by joel rifkin who was the most prolific serial killer in the state of new york in the history of the sale of new york. He killed seventeen prostitutes in that in the mid nineties and he was so meticulous and and disposing of these bodies The police didn't even realise a serial killer was operating. What happened was he got careless after victim number, seventeen p seventeen? He got lazy and a bit sloppy and he was dry
in around with a decomposing body in the back of his mazda pickup truck- and it was literally riding back their needs and smelled, he he was pulled over for a minor traffic infraction his his inspection sticker had had expired and a state trooper pull them over and when the trooper pull them over and walked up to the truck he smell this horrible stench and he made he may jaw opened the back of a truck and in there was a decomposing corpse. Angelo rifkin be incomplete, psychopath and unflappable in the situation said to the trooper yeah. She was a prostitute and I picked her up in manhattan. Things went bad, I had a killer. Do you think I should get a lawyer, my gosh? I have a little out of touch as they did in the end. In the end, the trooper was mortified, of course, but he didn't know that that he had just come
serial killer until he took rifkin into the headquarters and they started interrogating him and rifkin. He eventually said yeah and there's sixteen more. It's it's one of those things where I I agree with you. I think that they don't wanna get caught. They would continue on until they get caught, but I don't. I don't really think that they either they get lazy. They don't care but at the same time he has no clue that this is really that bad of a situation, so he can drive around with a dead body in the back of his car, not think twice about it. Yeah, you know I mean it if you take something simple like a drug smuggler. You know what are these guys they can they can have. kilo of cocaine on them and not not swear at all, whereas if I put a kilo of cocaine on you told you to go, you know, walk through court house, you'd, probably freak out,
yeah, it's the level of how cool in com. Can you make yourself and has a psychopath there were a serial killer day. It doesn't matter if there's a dead body in the trunk of their farther calm and collected and doesn't phase them exactly and in fact I have another great bt case story again exactly that regard I I I asked raider in one of my letters. Tell me tell me the moment that sticks out most in your mind day. You know in all of this, and he told me that when he was in the middle of his is killing spree. He his dream had always been to be a cop and in fact, in its rate, or has a bachelors degree and in criminal justice administration from I think it's it's wichita state college and
so he had always dreamed of being a cop. He never made it, but what he did. What he was able to accomplish convict is. He became a city inspector, he worked for the city and he was I could clients inspector he came around people's homes and if you're dog wasn't on Lee shore, if you're a grass was too long, he had some thought he carried a badge to issue citations, so its closest he got to be in a cop, but he got off on. It gave in this sense of power controlling domination that he wanted, but even better for him when he went to receive his his badge as it as a city and instead there. He had to go into the municipal headquarters in which a talk and guess what was there, that was the home of the bt K war room. There was all set up. You know four years trying to catch bt k. Well, the guy who gave him is banned
whoever was in charge the sergeant or whatever took him in there for a little look, look and see like yeah towards a tour of the the bt k, worm and so Dennis said what a rush- it was the greatest moment his life here here? I am giving a tour of the war room. It's bits set up the catch me and they have no idea worse, because that shows him how important he is that multiple people are searching for him, researching him writing about him right and in fact it that they're doing it right there in showing it to him you don't use the great man and so much smarter than them. They have no idea who he is. Do you how much credence do give till. I profiles, people that are like ok, I can look at this crime scene in this chain of events and know how this person is or how they think these are such great questions in and their questions
by that. I, you know that a lot of people want to know the answers given. So I dedicated also a chapter of my book to this is: is criminal profiling is it art is it jack. Is it science voodoo? You know what is it and I'll tell you how it works. What is based upon its based on what is known as in an inductive form of analysis, and what I mean by that is. It starts with the observations in a crime scene in where there's an unknown perpetrator, so in other words of local jurisdiction. They believed that there's a sarah
seller and the f b I come in and they they take a hold of the crime scene and all of the evidence, all the physical evidence. Everything that's known about these crime scenes it is recorded, and it's then put into a computer for analysis back in quantico, where everything that is known about every serial killer investigation, since the nineteen seventies is warehoused all of the the data and what they try to do is match up characteristics from this unknown perpetrator on the loose currently two cases that have been solved in the past and from that they're able to get a a good sense of
the the the at least generally speaking reddit the behavioral profile of of this individual, and sometimes it's it's uncannily, accurate or in a in a in a just. An absolutely amazing way is it: is it foolproof? Absolutely not, and there had never been really. Studies like I've asked the question. You know how on on how many occasions, what percentage of the time does does the profile that the fbi I come comes up with match a perpetrator once he or she is, is apprehended, and I have never been able to get a straight answer to that to that question. But I have talked many detectives who have worked on these sorts of cases where the fbi has come in and they have said without a doubt. The profile that they receive from from the fbi was was very useful in in the detection and and and apprehension so is. Is it? Is it foolproof? No, its not foolproof, but it's a it's. It's say it's a use.
the tool- and I might add to that that you know my friend Roy hazelwood at who is now retired. I think he is probably in his seventies and he's retired and in the washington d c area he's the one who's credited with coming up with what is known as the organised versus disorganized killer, categorization and with that is, is very broadly speaking, and this is part of the profiling process very broadly speaking, there's two kinds of serial killers in very broad brush strokes. Why
when is the meticulous psychopathic, unflappable unemotion of upon emotional ted, bundy type? That's one category! These individuals don't make mistakes. They they have plans what to do with the bodies. They dismember there very meticulous the other kind of serial killer. The disorganized type is the homicide or maniac type. This is the kind that does not make Plans often times kills and just leaves the body in a bloody mess right where they found it on, and these individuals, oftentimes, are, are very mentally ill lunatics and they don't function well in society. The classic disorganised serial killer from history is is jack. The Ripper and I've talked to some of the profilers,
out this I dont believe. Nor did they believe that jack, the ripper was be a medical, surgeon or part of the royal the family or any of these conspiracies. I think he was a true homicidal maniac that that didn't, you know, did not function at all and the the rage of his killings. The way he left the bodies just where he found them on a on a street corner is an indication of a very, very unstable, individual to me, like I think, of robert bardella or the cleveland strangler, these guys do function in society, but they work we're a mess and ably and chop the body. I put it in a garbage bag and let the trash can pick it up, which you know, that's a lot different than say, ted, Bundy or even richard ramirez. To me,
yeah. Well, you ramirez is a fascinating individual. Who is, he was somewhere in between. He was here not quite organised and he was not quite disorganized and in fact the his modus operandi was was was so unusual go into a neighborhood in suburban los angeles and he killed all over allay, which is why he just terrified the entire city he would into a neighborhood that he just didn't know, which is also contrary to most serial killers, most serial killer have a zone that their comfortable in and with its familiar to them. Whereas remit, would go into an unknown neighbourhood, and he would just look for a house with the no open and he would crawl in not knowing who he was gonna, find in there and dependent and who are you and what he found? He would just make it up on the fly if their way if was a loan woman, maybe he would rape, maybe he wouldn't he would rob her. He would kill her if it was a couple.
might you know you killed a man first and then do something with the one it was. Very unusual, very unusual, and so my point being is that these individuals don't necessarily fit neatly into one category or another. It's a mass, but that's why people are interested is to try to define to try to see if they can figure out the puzzle here exactly we yet you know there's this case that is still open. These so called long island serial killer. and these bodies started showing up a few years ago on a very remote beach shouting in long island gill go beach. but the individual, much like the zodiac or jack, the Ripper just disappeared and they haven't found any bodies lately. But it's a great mystery and it remains an open case in an dumb- and I mentioned that I blog about
things that was on psychology today make my blog is wicked deeds eyes the name of it in the article that I wrote about the long island serial killer just continues to just get hits all over the world. It's a it's a it's as a case in a story that that just seems to fascinate people. we are. We discussed that on our programme with the author, Robert koker, who had written a book loss girls on one of the quest. I had going into it was: do we know that there are- real killer, operating with prostitutes, war women who have, but we would term a risky business. You would think that there are at risk from more than just one person, and so when you have people disappearing or bodies. Turning up, how do you determine recourse robber? Culture was able to shed more light on what This is most likely a serial killer. That's operate
out there. In long island, yeah, yeah, absolutely well. Bodies were found in very similar. Burlap bags and dismembered bodies were buried in plastic and and so there's a there's a pattern. There there's definitely a pattern, but you bring up a very good. Important and important point is that unless the forensic evidence exists for these crimes seems to be linked there, it's possible for a serial operate without anyone being aware that there are even is one and and and so I'm sure, they're documented cases of hundreds of serial killers throughout. Just u s, history. and I imagine that the numbers are actually a lot higher because up until then, nineteen seventys, the methods of of identification were not sophisticated, and I'm sure that there were a number of cases. They were just never even identified the other cereal others who just operate, and then there are serious,
as who reach out many times to the press. Yup yup really good point, and in fact that's why I went specifically to Dennis rader who you know again, who called himself bind torture, kill and son of sand than David Berkowitz. He called himself son of SAM. I went to those two end of the it was because they gave themselves essentially their brand names. They name themselves a in in letters to the police. They both very much wanted to terrorize society. They wanted attention. They wanted to make a statement. and my book is all about- why this happens. Why this why these individuals become celebrity monsters? and I argued that in some of these cases and in some of the most well known cases, the serial killers very active. involved in creating their own public identity, but that's a question which the Ripper since it said that he may written letters or at least one year
where would he fall if he's just a homicidal maniac, but yet is trying to frighten the public as it were? Where does that place him? Do you think, Do you not believe that he really tried to establish himself hovered thing? I think those letters were were frauds. I actually think that they were written by the media by journalists two to just fuel the flames of of the jack. The Ripper story be the reason the jack, the ripper it, which is. This is a great. Any is. It is probably the greatest who done it of all time and I am actually very excited I it's. I think I can announce that I've been asked by one of the when the networks to get involved in a jack, the ripper project, to bring it up to date and and discuss the latest in for
even in and why it's an enduring story. After all, these years after hundred thirty years almost and a lot of it has to do with the fact that the proliferation of broad sheet newspapers in in london had just the technology had just emerged to the point that a store it was just waiting for a story like jack, the ripper that needed to be updated every day and in fact, the jack. The Ripper story was the first one in london, that that that brought newspaper circulation to over a million copies a day in london and, of course this was replicated around the world major citys around the world, which is why jack the ripper became a worldwide phenomenon. No news like badness fettes right, but I do believe, but in it to answer your your store or your rights, gives me your question
I think that those there's two letters that are that have been attributed to jack the ripper and one was signed from Hell and jack the ripper, and that's the one that of course, was made into a movie with johnny depp and the other one's called the dear boss letter. I think that they were both forgeries designed to just and fan the flames are fuel the flames of jack, the ripper. In the end, as the Tom west? Scott was our guests on a number of times and he has his own theories and Certainly has been involved in the Ripper ology me for quite a long time, but that's what I find vastly about this is depending on who you talk. You can get a different angle on the case, and I tend to believe that certainly the newspapers benefited and when we look at it from that angle, it makes sense that they would be forgeries and then, if you look at the crimes they
You seem very disorganized almost like opportunities, yank opportunities, and then I d, I dont, think, wool sir, I believe that will solve it one day, but I dont know that it's that simple. No, I don't think so in and and yet another thing about the jack. The Ripper case that so fascinating is. It was really the first attempt, the epp, and this is eighteen, eighty eight. So there was no. There were no fingerprints, there is no blood evidence. There is clearly no dna back in those days. There is nothing in fact. The standard procedure with a crime scene was to wash it as quickly as possible to get rid of the blood so that a wooden shock victorian society. So they basically did that they didn't have the means of of of analyzing the evident, back then, but they destroyed it to begin with, and but a police surgeon by the name of thomas finds it probably what would have been considered
at the the first real attempt to to profile and in in modern the modern world he he looked at. He was brought in after the five prostitute killings and he was asked to look at all the forensic evidence, the bodies, photographs of everything that they had, and he absolutely refuted, which was one of the popular theories of the I'm that it was a surgeon or a medical doctor because of the dismemberment in removing organs and stuff like that and his Inclusion was that this individual did not even have the scale of a common future. It was, it was purely just in ripping. I mean it was literally dismemberment, ripping he always got that. That feeling that its it makes the story better if if they were a butcher or if they were a doctor, but yet exactly exactly in- and that is exactly what this sum this individual dead. But but it was, there was a period
they're in in the fall of eighteen, eighty eight in london that any with a medical bag walking down the street was was a suspect and dumb So that was one of the predominant dumb theories of the time. But, but as you mention and answer he's in that at such an enduring story, until this day and age in movies and everything else is, there is at least a hundred theories, at least a hundred different theories about who the who jack the Ripper was. So What are some of the other topics in your book that you wanted to talk about that? We haven't asked you about well, one of the most interesting. Things that I found in, and you know I them prior becoming criminologist. I is a. I worked in me in the media field, and I and I worked in advertising for a number of years, and it became very apparent to me in in that My former profession, bad news is
Entertainment, you know I mean it's it you're on the surface. It's supposed to, you know, inform us, but it really is entertainment, and now, with the proliferate, in television channels and the internet in an instant jane and twitter and everything else, air there's so much competition that you have to sensationalize. You know if it's not if it's really is sensational and quick, and and and and and and grabs your attention you're going to overlook it, and so there's this. It really to sensationalize crime stories, and so I looked at night, my thinking was that this is not done just by by sensational tabloids but by the mainstream media. So what things that I did is as a over a twenty year period. I looked at article
in the new york times and articles in time magazine on serial killers. I I was able to pull using google ghoul plus anything dealing with serial killers, and so there were hundreds. articles in time, magazine weakly and there were thousands of articles in the new york times over that period, given with zero killers. Interesting Lee in in both news media that didn't your times paper and in time magazine an identical thirty. Three percent of the articles you some combination of the words evil monster, vampire dracula so and in these media that would be considered more highbrow intellect
whoa media you over for the educated audience time magazine in the new york times. Even they sensationalize these stories, the with a re- it's not surprising, then it's really not surprising that that indonesia- like dahmer and and gay see in burundi and raider become celebrity monsters when it's just the way their referred to. You know they're there, given their they're they're, just as there are spoken of in in human terms, and when you do that, It turns them into dracula and in turn them into almost immortals and that's when the story gets so fascinating, because the police who chased them become very much like Van helsing, in the dracula story chasing the you know that the vampire and their been in real life. A number of these nor is it a played out, including with Dennis rater there. There was a police detective,
by the name of ten land were who, sadly, he died about a year ago as well, that he's the one who actually cod rater after thirty years and the way that he caught him was this game of cat and mouse, and they Dennis raider had been writing to him and believed that they had developed a relationship Dennis raider was caught by of his own massive ego, he said. Can I want to send you something on a floppy disk? This is back in the days when you know when we use floppy death, and he said now. You can't trace any information and then I'm going to send you on his floppy disk right and can say no of course not. Then, as I can't you know, I can't trace that. Well guess what Dennis rader had deleted his name and the address of the church where he was the president of the church association on this floppy disk, that's how they got him, so he was really victimized by his own egomania wow. I didn't realize that that's how he got caught
that's right. That's shocking, cosy up his lack of knowledge of technology me being a pc tax. That would just be you know, checkmate yeah, exactly what dennis is almost seventy years old and dumb and according to the new car back in two thousand and five, so it s a little while ago by tat yeah. It is surprising and an end, but this see this gets to the stream. A sense of responsibility and ethics, even if, if you, if you had dennis raider here and you would ask him. Are you an ethical man? He would say absolutely. I am. I am a man of my word. I am. I am honest. I am a christian because he he compartmentalize as everything he sees. It sees no contradiction. When being a family man, husband, christian church leader and a serial killer torturer.
keep it there's? No, there's no contradiction there in his mind ass, he compartmentalize is at all and he was mortified. Therefore, that can land where who he thought was his body, this police detective who was chasing him. He was mortified that can land were would actually like to him and he and when, when he was apprehended one of the first things that Dennis raiders said too can lammers. Can I can't believe it? I cannot believe that you would that you would would lie to me. Why did you do that and then were said because I was trying to catch you? I worked with What do you? What do you? What do you think and it speaks to dentists, raiders psychopathy and his this strange sort, sort of ethics that it was just beyond his or his comprehension and but perhaps a final indication of his
the system is when he was sitting in interrogation and all the cops probably have the force of of Wichita Kansas was sitting there with him, interrogating him and, of course, he's basking in his glory now, because it's his opportunity to to tell them what was they were in and and how they were unable to catch him and any any looked round. And he said We gonna be here for a while, and they said yeah yeah. I think I've been here for a while Dennis any signal. In that case. Would you please mark my coffee, mug bt k, because I don't want it mixed in with yours, oh wow ended but Don't we all compartmentalize, I mean whether it be our religious beliefs. Are political beliefs just the way we would parents the way we would wash her car, I mean, don't we have our own ways of doing things and think that we know best and other people wrong. I mean, I think, we're all kind of
creates or we're all kind of weird like tat, but just not on the same level. I say bt k, yeah. I see your point, I I do understand your point and I think we all you know, probably do compartmentalize to a certain extent, just not to the extreme that you know that he does. I mean he he he. Actually. This is a rationalization. It's a criminologist. We call it a neutralization technique. It's it's a way he neutralizes his guilt. He he says: how: how can you can you meaning society? How can you condemn me? He said I am no different than a than a shark or a vendor the snake I was born to kill. I am a natural born killers. How can how can you condemn he and he believes that in the end, but of course he believes it because that neutralizes any any guilt that he might otherwise feel when he gets back
Who is there truly good and evil, or is it just our perception and interpretation of what we perceive as good and he was there. He would even say that he's not evil. He would say that better than you was born to kill and he's not evil at all, he's just doing his natural instinct, so he would say he would say that's probably a gift, he would call it a gift from god. The fact that he is a natural predator read its to reduce. get on the shark for killing the seal, do we get on the line for taking down the gazelle now, because that just nature and that's how he perceives right off or eat when he doesn't see, is sharks and hawks, don't fantasize and obsess. I dont think about torturing and killing. You know they. They just do what they do with their instinct, whereas he fantasized in and got off sexually by. by these terrible doing his terrible things were. All these things are doing it for hunger and survival. He yeah he's
survive. Just fine. If he's not killing anybody exactly exactly scott, you can go ahead and by the way, year book is available on audible? Oh, it is yes, my! I am once again that the title my book is why we love serial killers. The curious appeal of the world's most sab murderers and it is available in print it's available in ebook, both kindle and nook and it's also available from audible available as that as an audio book and dumb apportioning violent, the amazon, upside down the Barnes noble website, it's available in bookstores nationwide, and I hope that their people enjoy it. It's it's a different look. You know it's a different look at this. I think it's more it in many ways: it's about us, it's about our fascination with serial killers and and how they have become these celebrity monsters. So I I hope you know, I hope, you're,
You're listeners may enjoy I'm out on wicked deeds right now. My first article that I wrote for wicked deeds is the difference between a soul path and psychopath, and that one article has been read almost in times around the world. It's amazing well, thank you so much coming on to talk with us. This has been a lot of fun. I really agree. did you have any on the show w h, why the the
the one. In the late sixteen hundred the coast of north America became a hotbed of piracy, but a man and pirates were much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were also crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies that would eventually become the united states. I lindsey grand the hosts of wonders, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans our values. struggles and our dreams. In our latest series. We take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and reveal the true stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain kidd listen,
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.