« The Generation Why Podcast

Sebastian Burns And Atif Rafay - 297

2018-09-16

July 13th, 1994. Bellevue, Washington. Sebastian Burns (19) and Atif Rafay (18), who had been in Bellevue for a number of days to visit Atif's parents, arrive at the home around 2am to find a terrible scene. Burns calls the police to tell them of a break-in and the deaths of his friend's father, mother, and sister. The authorities get the two close friends a hotel room to stay in while the investigation gets under way. But they decide to go back to Canada rather than remain in the USA. The pair became the main suspects but how could investigators get to them? The Royal Canadian Mounted Police began monitoring Burns and Rafay and after a short time launched a Mr. Big operation. Illegal in the United States, this operation placed undercover officers in a position to make suspects believe they were dealing with criminals who were in a position to help them get out of their 'impending arrests'. With confessions from the two given to the investigators in Washington, the case is set. Did the two close friends murder the Rafay family for the insurance payout? Or was this sting operation only successful in getting them to lie in order to protect themselves?

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The idea of the better I'm good. and how are you doing wonderful, quick update for people. I was on cross base with timid lance talking about my last point, rural episode and to keep the conversation going. I was also on crime sphere, with MIKE more and nina talking about it. Some
and if you were wanting something else I was on the Mention of all talking about conspiracy theories, where I cousin rant a lot so put on your phones have even on anything lately. Well now, I've I've just been on framed an investigative story and that's going really well. Thank you so much everyone for your support and for checking it out. We need a dedicate this episode to our good friend, callin Fitzgerald, from cosmic cast off podcast, He has been begging us to cover this case for years now, and it's me, as this is his pet case, I hope you like it Colin. I don't get a lot of time to sit down and read a book boys on the go But I love reading, so the solution is audible, audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Best sellers new releases celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers catch crime and there too, as an audible member, you can choose one title: a month:
leading the latest best sellers and new releases. One of my favorites is connections: uncovering the real causes of depression and unexpected solutions. Only bon audible, let audible help. You discover new ways to laugh and be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot, com, slash gdp or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, audible calm, slash, gaeta BP, dead, montague, from our sponsor gang their good. I mean the key where rumpled suits and are all roughen graphic whatever, but they get the job done. Sometimes it seems like the poor. Might have had him fooled, but that ironclad alibi. Sorry, through that were that tiny teeny lie the killer, told them the first interrogation boom. He may wonder how is going to end, but that's kind.
fond of a good crime story. Are you ready to stream some crime stories right now? Hulu, it's a crime not to watch a little, the cursor before we talk about tonight's case, because I see it hotly debated out there on the inner webs errand. I will follow narratives we're not advocates. I've said this before and I will say it again: take sides in most of these debates were these acute his door wrongfully accused I just look at the evidence. Go with what I feel about it in Erin goes what makes sense to him and we're going to talk about this case. The way we always do So what are we talking about tonight?
its case involves the murders of tariq, repay sultana, Faye and basra parfait. They were a family father, a mother and a daughter, their son, a tea for Faye and his friend Sebastian burns were accused of committing the martyrs. This goes down in Bellevue, washington July twelfth nineteen. Ninety four, a teeth he was born in seventy six. The year of my birth, he is eighteen years old. He grew up in north vancouver, but he had emigrated from pakistan. Whereas family lived from eighty four to eighty nine he liked cat. Reading he's your typical teenager and he liked movies you as a movie above he got into computers. At an early age. But Europe
as this is ninety four? So computers are, you know, I windows three one might have been out, but he was interested in cognitive studies and philosophy this freshman year at core? Now he was granted permission to pursue inner d plenary course of study of his own devising as college scholar in lieu of a traditional major, so he's really bright kid. It's almost like keeking calo, every once yeah, That's a whole other level. I've I've, not experience that myself I mean I. This is just to emphasise that he's no dummy, I didn't get that operate, really what I was going to college. So my major was computer information systems. I was a test in high school and then went to college for theatre? and in order to pay for college. I got a job fixing computers
and then I realized made more money, fixing computers and I would ever do getting into theater and set design, but anyways nobody lives dreams right here did west vancouver high and his family had located to Bellevue Washington middle through his senior year, but he decided to finish out in vancouver. at worst vancouver. He had met what turns out to be pretty much his best friend glue sebastian burns. He just goes by Sebastian, though yeah he was a dashing intelligent young man by most accounts he was five eleven was raised and western coover graduate secondary school and ninety three and he began and arts degree at de cap olano collar
He played cello and the orchestra and he taught himself french again disguise highly until and he had a straight a average. He was good looking and tea was School play called a rope. He had now yet begun going to university, so he was sitting taking film at you bc. So a week before the murder July, twelve, ninety four, a teeth and Sebastian they came down from west vancouver to Bellevue. In turn to visit a tease family, and this isn't that the ordinary they have a large basement were the guys can hang out de spending time for several days at the house, but then on July, twelve, a teeth and his friends abashing go out for
dinner. They left the house at around eight p m and they went to the king restaurant around nine forty. They go. Who is showing us the lion king at the factory at cinema. Something that's key here is between the restaurant. And the theatre people remember seeing these guys because their very loud and sort of obnoxious, maybe looking and horsing around a lot. So I'm forty thereat, this theatre watching the lion king, which that's a little odd to me, but I'm not a big fan of disney movies, but two I'm going to see the lion king! No- and I I guess maybe they're bored, I dunno if they are both movie buffs. The only thing I can think of is its possible because it this movie had a lot of press about it. A lot of attention on it when it came out. I remember that so
There were a lot of people, I loved it. Now me I do watch a lot of disney films, and this is one of the I that I had no interest in I'm sure we'll get here email, but I have zero interest in most of the disney movies. Franchise or we're going to the amusement parks, anyways hope their sponsor after the movie, the two drove Two steve's broiler downtown seattle where they arrived at about midnight now between bellevue in seattle. It's about a fourteen minutes, dr depending on, where you're coming from and where you're going, but it's just across the lake from each other, especially ten o clock at night. Traffic's, not his heavy is safe. During the day. So anyone that psycho rush hour we get that, but it's late at night, after leaving the restaurant they tried to enter, a mere by night club. I think it's called the weathered wall and they were turned away, so they went back
Two steve's broiler ass to use the bathroom and then ended up driving back to Bellevue. So it's two a m in the morning, thirteenth now the ads about two, a m when they say they arrived home when they entered the home? They discovered a tv mother on the floor. She's been blood to death, so they continue into the house and on the upper level of the house, they find his father. They don't go in the room, they say they said they look. through the doorway and into the room and saw blood eyeteeth, would also later say that he heard his sick her moaning in her room. It's quite apparent than that. There was an attack but also that it must have been a break in because they saw evidence of things having been knocked over and chief, was missing some personal items as well as a vcr his purse lion. then were a disk man. He had disk man player and
and something else, but to them it was a part clear. A robbery went wrong or something so they, call. Nine one one at two o one at the time that they show up at the house is anywhere from one. Fifty eight to two: a m so it's within three minutes or less that they call nine one one. They give the information that we just gave to you on this call. You can go out and you can find this nine, when one call you might not be able to find it in its entirety, you'll find indifferent documentaries and what not pieces it's you can hear the way they sound. I think it's unbelievable, but then again I don't put much weight on nine when one calls and how somebody comes off, but I guess the impasse
in part, is how quickly they called and what information they gave and if you find that suspicious or not suspicious, the police respond right away, but they had trouble free the house. It's around Oh six, a m, I believe, when the two Eighteen year olds sebastian and achieve are chasing for this car and hitting window telling him to stop now, police show up. There are starting to go into the home, an officer, think is at the way I took it was he was sort of posted to stay by them outside I they were asked to sit down and just wait, and so they did that they were freaking out to hail the car down. They got the police officer to stop. Of course, but now there asked to sit aside while they go in and they started investigation, let's paws on this for a moment, during the nine one call. They said
Don't know if the perpetrator is still in the home or if it's safe to be inner, so they're outside on the street. Now some people think well think that the killer is stone the home. Why wouldn't you run away? And I'm thinking now you just you left the house. So that's good enough. when they were waiting outside of the house. The neighbors were one What was going on because it's too, I am so they're watching these two guys stand there very casually and nonchalantly talking and they won the cops arrive, they freak out and flag them down and yell and scream, and then, when they told the sit down they shut up and sit down. You can take from that what you want, but it's a little questionable in some people's minds. What do the police find by the police discover dad
sultana motifs mother has been bludgeon to death when they go up and find the body of tariq repay the father. first they said it look like he had killed himself with a shotgun. That's because he was unidentifiable and there was so much blood that it was running down the wall behind him, but. It would be shown that he was also bludgeon to death. His sister, is still alive. sister was developed mentally disabled and she hadn't spoken her entire life so Oh she's alive, but she's been brutally attacked now, even if she was in a place where she could have identified the attacker, she can't so. This is very frustrating because you have a victim here, but she's probably too far gone that she couldn't have spoke, but she
at least somewhat conscious. When they first arrived, one of the things they also discover in the home aside from look around to see if there was a break in because that was reported on the night when one call they also took a but the shower, the shower appears to be used, like somebody took a shower recently, and once they start using luminal in black lights. Well, there's blood droplets all over the shower. So whoever did this probably wash The hairs they found in the shower were inconsistent with any of the rafale family, the There is work consistent with a quotation, hair, the a caucasian that had been. The house was sebastian burns that we know of yeah they or is will collect evidence from the home fingerprint evidence and hairs anything they can. Some of the thing.
They find or these boxes that were toppled over anything that disturbed. They want to check it for a fingerprint evidence, so there's drawers that are opened boxes that are toppled over ransacked generally, I have to say, I don't want to come off bias so early in the show, but it doesn't look like a typical break in and robbery to me. The boxes that are toppled over just looks like they were stacked up and pushed over. It's not very, I dunno who knows what a break and looks like, but I've seen a few and it's either the places trashed or you just have drawers rifled through and there is very little disturbance. This looks like somebody what creating a scene. The more but items in the home were not taken. They all.
Oh found some cigarette butts in the back yard. A teeth does smoke. I dont think Sebastian did he may have this didn't. I just don't know about it. I July thirteenth, the Bellevue police arranged for burns and reform This is sebastian and achieve disdain to Bellevue motel so they want them near by, but they obviously can't stay at that house near the lead investigator detective thomas from the state They gave that night and from the state of the in and victims inside the house he's said on the record that burns and teeth are the prime suspects literally the night of he thinks these guys did They forensically examine all the evidence that they gather and There are some mysterious peace
of evidence that our unexplained they found an unidentified hair near to wreak were phase body. They found a mist the finger print on the shower door they found bloody shoe mark in the garage they didn't match either of the shoes that belong to a teeth or sebastian, but they here is that were in the shower match sebastian. The blood in the shower, matched to wreak. So we said that they came to his parents house a week before, so we expect to find some remnants of sebastian. There he's been staying there, so finding his hair and his finger prints. Not a red flag to me, yet you know I'm sure he used the shower
So maybe he used it the day before and a hair was left over well. Sebastian does say that he is the shower before they went out that night. So there we go, there isn't logical explanation for the hair. The perpetrators of this crime. We know you the shower also and that little weird that whoever did this showed up wiped out. A family took a shower. and left yes, he, the thing here is as if we ever committed these murders would have been covered in blood the. So stopping take a shower, that's pretty risky, and if this is a hit on a family they probably know that there was a son could come home at any time so Taking a shower doesn't make a lot of sense, and if it's you
ran dough serial killer, I dont know of taking a shower, makes sense to him either, but we seem weird stuff, so go figure, and if this killer wasn't sebastian or teeth, then maybe they were ball than didn't leave hair. Exactly is so it's it's! You know it's a question: where else did they find sebastian? your prince. That looks really bad. They found them on the boxes and where they actually process these boxes for the fingerprints, they use a technique that they say can take a while to develop the finger france, and so the thing that really struck them was that some of the prints were coming up right away. It's because of how much perspiration I was on the person's fingers, so is
Guess you could say a higher amount of fingerprint left behind higher amount of oil and perspiration left behind wherever a touch the boxes, and in this case it was sebastian. That was I because they said the way the boxes had tumbled over or it pushed over, and the only way for these prints too, laughter. At least some of them was when the boxes were closed, so maybe he opened Any movie push them over yeah, that's essentially what law enforcement thinks is he's the one that push them over, because these prints seem fresh. I know you can't put a time stamp on upon a fingerprint, but whoever toss them over ran back to the room unless they were wearing gloves, woodley fingerprints and said only fingerprints, we have reservations, it's not illegal. logic to think that he might it had been the one that, through these boxes over others, as wisely touching the boxes. Now the
repay family. You were muslims apart from a teeth he in consider himself a muslim from what I understand. Did you read that he has like kids growing up christian or catholic? You know they they go through the motions But shortly after these murders, the police received its hip from another police agency stating that the killings may have been tied to a radical islamic group. This group would argot muslims who do not practise their faith or interpret or interpret the koran as they do These are people that they have a real issue it. So Family was more moderate and very active in the mosque in the organizations. So the idea here is that
they were a target because they were a moderate voice or they weren't. They weren't following it and such strict adherence that this so called extreme the group was police also had a another tipp that there was a hit call. Then, on this family, the lead was up in vancouver, so there was a confidential informant up there, who told the constable that they were offered twenty grand to wipe in east, indian, family. The investigators and bellevue contact the parsee mp up in canada. It said that they want to persons house and knocked on the door. No answer. But when detective thomson is question about this lead, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't followed up on at all, because they felt that these two guys were the prime suspects.
And they put very little priority or importance on this contract to kill lead that some called in anonymously. The police had interviewed a teeth and sebastian a few times. They were looking to talk to them again, so they went to the motel that they had put them only when they got there. The two young men weren't there they had fled the two young men weren't there they had fled. Well, they had been there for a while. They wanted to go back to canada. They didn't live in Bellevue. They lived in vancouver so they left and they actually told the canadian council it that they were coming and the council, it called the bellevue police. said they're going to be leaving soon. Are you cool with that in the bellevue? Please, department, said sure, take a moment
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them nearby in case you need to talk to them again and it could be you need it. Information from them or maybe you're, starting to really take a look at them as being the suspect. So it does seem strange to me they should have detain them. They should arrested them. While there are rules about that right, emmy. If you do something like that, you have to give to put charges for in a certain amount of time right and then these kids actions there's nothing. You can do they can leave and I would have left to not going to live in some crappy hotel on the cops dime and I don't have a change of clothes. no I'm leaving bye, I'm going to go home, so I don't blame them at all for leaving, and it appears that they did it the proper way. Through the proper channels, so I don't like using the word fled here. Will they took off I say said it is well. They went home, backed canada, but of course there still interested in these two. Absolutely when
detective thomson is asked. Why did you not fall This led about this contract killing. Why reuse focused on these two guys when there's very little evidence against them and at that point they haven't, got the finger print, hair analysis back, but thomson said there was tat tons of evidence against them the way they were acting listened. at nine one one call and then they fled and I'm thinking dude here your porn, your grasping at straws right now you trying to put together is against them. I get it, but in his mind they were the guilty party from the gatt go and he felt that all the evidence pointed to them from the you know you they, you always hear the cops have instincts when they and through the house they didn't buy this breakin angle at all. That's the first
the thing that they say that Sebastian says on the call right when he makes that nine one one call he talks about a break in, but there isn't a break in there's no forced entry at all. Okay, but we might be mixing words here. Yeah well, semantics yeah, it might be semantic because if they noticed some things were toppled over and some These were missing, then you might call it a break in somebody picks the lock on my door and gets in the collar break and regardless of whether it was for censure gotcha right technically, it would not be a break. It. there was the back, wasn't a backdoor them left open, partially, maybe wasn't locked, but this is used as evidence again well, it would be for police. I would imagine that its evidence that maybe they didn't get the true story out of these two and so These too, are suspicious
The behavioral evidence really stuck out to him because these two weren't acting like he thought they should. You know I mean teeth, isn't isn't seemingly concerned about what happened as whole families wiped out I don't know how you're supposed to behave when that happens, so I'm kind of given the pass, because I don't know what you're supposed to do, but there is sick, security, footage of them going to a video store, the very next night and people, especially law enforcement thankful. Why are they doing that and I'm thinking you're cooped up in a hotel? What are you going to do? Maybe you're going to go rent a movie right in, and it's a fair point about. How do you react, but I think one of the things that we would expect is if you're willing to flag down a police, car and bang on the window and yell and yell and yell to get the attention of the officer but you're not asking any quest. In about europe
family members in their speeches it's kind of a contrast one you're concerned. You want to make sure the officer gets there, but then, after that, you're done there's nothing else you have. nothing else to say or ask about the neighbours around the house actually reported hearing, bang sounds and a ruckus at around ten p m and they're supposed to be at this movie that eight bought tickets for the lion king it. I'm forty on the face of it. They have a pretty solid alibi, and it's not until two a m that the neighbors report, that there's two guy standing there nonchalantly and then going to freak out mode and then stop asking questions It looks suspicious to some. It would to me and is being honest. I didn't ask the cops any questions when somebody broken my house, he lost his mother, his father and his sister. One. We should be clear about right now. Is a team was honest with the police
about his sister. He did not like her. I thought she was gross pages was open about it. The police are focused on them for a lot of reasons. Some of the. Might be asking were what's the mode of here. Why would this kid wipe out his entire family and you find out that there was a life insurance policy to the tune of two hundred to four hundred thousand dollars. And something they like to emphasise is that his sister add to die in order for our teeth to get this policy. I seriously doubt a teeth had busted out this contract and read it himself, so I dont really put emphasis on his sister had to die. If you try the poor life insurance policy. You just kill everybody you're, not thinking
I have to do this. Yo aside, I just I don't care for their emphasis on his sister had to die for him to get the pay out. But there is another story but why they may be needed some money, and this would come out later. we will go into more later, but Sebastian d want to be filmmaker He had a script and he had a movie that he wanted to make that had a message and they figured that movie, would cost about two hundred thousand dollars to make witches the baseline of this life insurance policy, so little ironic, it reminds me a little bit of the job in Ramsay ransom note that was asking for about the same amount as their fathers. Christmas bonus had ceased connections. One makes so one thing that you in discussed quite a bit before we started recordings, and I was
They have some evidence. Have some suspicious behaviour- capsule some areas of the country they may have in fright, yeah, but there are other areas of the country may be more them a lot more of them. That would say I dont know if I can move on us. In other words, what would de I say with this amount of evidence the you got my pension, but am I going to go to court with this you're you're, really adamant. You don't think they could take this to court. I, while they weren't moving on it. They had that evidence, but at no point did they start extradition against these guys. They weren't doing anything the bellevue, the washington police, were for all accounts sitting on their hands waiting for something for now. I realize that sebastian and achieve have gone to canada, so they can't interview them
and they're not cooperating any longer, they stopped talking to police, because while they got lawyers and lawyers, what are they going to tell you don't talk to the cops? What would you tell them? I would save lawyer up, invest hitters wanted dna from these guys, and these guys were done. They didn't want to give dna whoa. I don't blame him because were in the house for a week, they're going to in their dna, probably and any nay they find in their like okay? Well, your dna was found here so now you're the murderer, I can see why they wanna. Do it even if it's for legit reasons and I feel, like the bellevue police. Have nothing at this point not nothing but not enough to arrest them. Otherwise, I feel they would have already done it.
I'm not saying they are not doing their jobs on just saying that they just didn't have enough at this time in juncture and a war, looking at other leads either because they had who they thought were the prime suspects. Every time. You have a case that seem stalled. Everyone always has in their head. That says, when are they to get a break. In this case- and in this case they get a break. But it's not through any action of the bellevue police department, its r c m p royal. Can and mounted police up in canada, nay, very creative, with their investigation creative is an air quotes for anyone. That's not able to see them. Some people hate those jesting dinah take dirty ere, I know, but the r c very helpful.
They actually have access to investigative methods that we don't have down here in the states. And they wiretap their phones, because there are not able to catch them. You know they stick out their homes and their where the rapid did is aren't getting a break? They come up with this idea and they wiretapped their phones, and they hear that they're going to a hair salon. Yes, abashing has an appointment. He ate his hair cut because submissions gotta look good They know he's going to this place at this. In time, so they make sure that somebody there too, just bump into him how low conversation yeah obviously Sebastian doesn't know it, but in under cover. Our c is asking him if you,
knows how to get into his car because he locked his keys in it sebastian. Well, he can allow offer the guy ride back to where he stay because he finds out the guy has second set of keys, so he does that and the guy offers to buy me a drink at the bar. For his it's in january of this year as when they started wiretapping and in April ninety. Ninety five: that's when they put this I would call it a sting operation into effect. They dubbed it project estate and, at this point on board, with this thrown undercover cop atom see if you can get. How can you know by images listen, I'm up so happens, but this isn't really where it's going? It's not just Hey, let's be buddies. Here's a beer! Would you
I do we wouldn't be talking about this case. If that is all it was yeah, maybe not by it this enters into a completely different investigative technique that it's been declared. legal here in the states. Yes has so tell us about it just well. There was a case arizona, verse, follow monti where a pretty to child murderer. Child pedophile was being charged and in prison. He was approached by another inmate informant, really, who said you know what they do to child prayer. You're right, I can give you protection. All you need to do is tell me what you did in the sky, confer
says to his crimes to get protection. So it's it's almost like a veiled threat, but it doesn't have to he me a confession, or I will hurt you. It's give me a confession and I will protect you give me a fashion, and I will make sure that You are ok from prison life. Essentially what the r c is trying to do here? Is this guy's approaching sebastian tellingham, hey, I'm a welcome dude. I can help you guys out. You know if there's evidence against you, I can have it destroyed. If you go to prison, my powers far reaching and I can get
you protection in prison whatever it is. I can help you, but you gotta tell me what she did. If the tell me in detail- and if you do, I will make sure that you are protect, that your life will not be as sukhi as it would have been in so sebastian being his brazen self says. Ok, Well, tell you and even brings a teeth over and they start talking and this working with the sky, it's a very odd relationship but, as I just explained how this is illegal in the states, whether or not you agree, with what they're doing in america it's not allowed, but in canada. It is at this time, so They're getting these two guys to talk with the promise of assistance.
Whether it be financial or assistance with destroying evidence, assistance with protecting them. If they do end up going to prison, they had mold four meetings burns mention that he needed two hundred dollars for his movie. Daddy is planning and they said what will introduce you to to our guy as possible. Invest So this is how they started talking about money. He took him to a strip club. He introduces em to hazlitt, who is an undercover guy and they talk about their money. On April thirteenth hazlitt contacts burn and hasn't drive over to meet him in another guy and they want burns to drive a stolen car back to vancouver burn. Goes along with it and is
The little concern about it because he is now getting into this life of crime, but he takes this stolen car back to vancouver and they pay him to a dollars. Now burns gets mad at this point because he's unhappy with this two hundred dollar payment because he looks at this cars as do this cars worth a lot of money. And you just pay me two hundred dollars. What he's not understanding is you just got aid to an it to be a taxi driver, but he Looking at it, as I just allowed you to get this high valued vehicle burns says he is willing to participate in more lucrative operations like selling drugs or even
acting as a hitman, so he's not on the up and up, and this is all being recorded by the way all of their conversations- and I forgot what the total was, but it's over hundreds of hours of documented evidence and recordings of them too, fucking. So it's ridiculous and it went from being hey talk to this guy. He probably would invest, then your movie, to suddenly becoming hey you're joining our criminal organization. Yeah in that happened quickly. Yeah does days. So not. king good. They eventually will disclose to them that they are suspects in the bellevue murders why this comes up more or less burns bringing it up. It's not them asking which is kind of weird, but
of course they know about it. Yeah, and this isn't something that they're going to just let slide by. There was a newspaper article that they thought might have compromised their operation against them. So the under covers, they call it burns hand. He says he's glad to hear from and he's available to meet up with them and they com next day and set up a meeting. They intercept recordings of him singing that he's a happy man So they know that he's not no in this newspaper article didn't burn them, didn't out them as undercover cops more. Why was he happy? Sir, might say it's, because he now has enough money to make his movie and is possible that his friend, a tief has gotten insurance pair exactly day again say: hey. Are you interested making some money meet my friend
over here this royal scott hotel? victoria and burns ass, their friend me Yoshi to join them and they meet up at the hotel, for two days burns and me, oh, whose their friend from japan assist with money laundering by making cash deposits totalling a hundred thousand dollars into various automated teller machines and he paid then the undercover paid them two thousand dollars at the end of the day for making these these deposits slid had indicated that he knew some one within the bellevue to police department yeah. That would be a good contact to have right yeah. How can we the and, of course, burns has a few questions for him so burn just once to find out everything. He can about the investigation in what they have on him
and the icy mp geyser saying. Ok, well we'll find that out for you or row with it they can Can you doing more money laundering schemes they try to elicit, more details about the murders, this is where It comes in that burns and the t fool admit to these guys that they murdered his family and they will give brutal details about that night and, while they're giving them He tells they're laughing their joking about it and not even phased by the gruesome detail. of a tease family being wiped off the map. The argument here is a teeth and burns were, showing off for what they thought were big
I so guys that were well connected, so they had to sound cold hearted its it's one of those things where, if you watch the videos listen to the audio you don't it it's terrible. What they're saying is terrible and they are giving details about the night of that they weren't able to give police when they were questioned just after the crime. Now were they in shock that night, when they found the bodies and now they're more relaxed, so they can remember more, details. There has been lots of news articles that have come out. Are they just regurgitating stuff from that? But when you hear where they talk about it, it doesn't sound like they're pulling. Some news articles a teeth and burns give one detail that stuck out to me about his sister.
What was that are well. Sebastian said that when he killed basma achieve sister, it took a little more bat work than he had expected, she fought back a little and she was the one that was found with defensive wounds. She had used her arms in her hands? She had tried defending or so when she was attacked. It was very, obvious to the investigators that to wreak had been asleep in bed when he was attacked. So this to me, insider information that they shouldn't have known because the teeth during the nine one call and denied us says he heard sister moaning on the other side of the door, but he didn't check honour now they say Your sisters in pain and moaning, and you dont check honour that looks terrible, I'm thinking
Knowing that they have this information she defended herself? I don't think they would have been able to come up with that on their own, the other details that they give that are very very suspicious is sebastian talks about how he can did the murders, while he was just in his underwear so that he could simply clean up. He knows about the shower. We said, whoever committed the murders would have been covered in blood. Well, if just in his underwear and he gets covered in blood- can discover the shower so they're giving some details. They also ask him whoa: was it a metal, batter wooden bat and they say? Oh as a metal bat? I think that's fifty fifty you could have got that right or wrong, but they knew it was a metal bat just due to the wounds. They just assume that a wooden bat might have broken or splintered if they had been used. So
I don't put as much weight on them, knowing which type of bad it was, but then actually get him to say. Well. How did you get away with this? when the murders probably took place at around ten p m and they give more details about how they laughed and did this and then continued about their night and then wooden reported at later. So their feeding them their filling in the all the blanks that law enforcement didn't have
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not come. Slash easy. In late july till I twenty six nineteen, eighty five burns and his romeo. She met with hazlitt at all. Helen vancouver. It said the land is hotel. Me Oh, she had told hazlitt He knew about the plan to kill his family about a month before, but he didn't go with them too. our view. According to me, oh she it's because he was too busy at work, which is a very strange reason. I would think Emmi, is he admitting that he was willing to go? I think he was true to stay neutral and just came up with an excuse, he didn't think there were serious. I think the other possibility is that he took it serious sleep but doesn't want to let his friends down necessarily is he's got an excuse
hey man. I will go by right. I mean, if one of my friends that I'm gonna go kill my parents. I don't know if I would believe, but hey, I would find an excuse to like. I have to go returns, videotapes suck a little bit about Jimmy neo. She because he's going to be a big part of this case moving forward, he was high school buddy help them when they went back to coover and obviously he's along for the ride with burns for a lot of these extra costs. Killer activities. He's doing with the arcy mp, which they think is the mafia or something according to sebastian meals She and her teeth were pretty close. almost like that was his other best friend. I think there is even a comment about it there
Situation was little different. They might have even been married anyhow, but just they they used their just saying that they were that close over several months. We're getting these guys to confess to everything, give details unlikely, anyone else would have known about. and this is all being funneled right back to the bellevue police department melts cooperation. So before we discuss and really get into this. Mr big operation, which what it was let's talk about, what happens me. Oh she because me, oh, she at first when Paul move on these guys he's really willing to talk know he doesn't, actually says there in us
and he stands up for him and then he or I don't want to say, fled the country, but he goes back home to japan, but it's the promise of immunity which likely gets him talking and, of course this is controversial. But when he's given this starts giving statements to the arcy mp, and this is because in august. Ninety five in august ninety six and searched hot about this plan. That was put emotion. He gave them details about How they moved around town. You know said: up there alibis and going back to kill the family and this is being added to all the video when audio recordings they have from, The sting operation. So me she is being threatened with
Conspiracy, life sentence all these things unless he cooperates. Let's talk about this because he knew, the plan in advance, now I get what you're saying he could have laughed at often said you you guys I do that, but I am not so This had to have happened, but it's possible that he had asked them like. Are you serious and they may said? Yeah no were serious so here is where you have to take me. She had his word, or You assume that the police- are feeding him all these details for his statement. I know one thing That means she would turn on his friends, but he has and here's the problem is is he telling the truth? He seems to have a of details and know a lot of things about this plan and if
These two guys are actually innocent. He wouldn't have any these details. He wouldn't be able to just make this up on the fly unless somebody fed it to him and that's the problem. Here is people. Think that the police were so gung ho to go after these guys that they're going to pick them out as the prime suspects, the night of they're going to. just do the sting operation, and this is new everything between view and the arms are see mp, what's one more thing that the cops these dirty filthy cops, aren't capable of doing mutual these statements and testimony are usually discarded. Pretty quick from at least the innocence
groups and advocacy groups, but I don't really get why he is. I mean he's a key pivotal witness here, so you have to disregard him or you have to take them seriously. This whole thing falls apart kind of without him and in a way at mew. She worked at a global securities firms in Tokyo did the other. it is needed him back either either in canada or in seattle, so that he could now be deposed the way there at him to come back. Was they went straight to his come? I just said, hey, look this: why we need your guy, they said you know what no problem he's on aid administrative leave. He can leave you gonna have em. So if he doesn't come back, you were not a. We gave him every opportunity to go but there were no excuses at that point. If, if he was going to go through with this and testify.
burns and rafale are charged with three key. Of aggravated first degree murder, but they have to be extradited from canada. Well, Canada is not in favour of the death penalty, and this is definitely of case where prosecutors would want that on the table, but they gotta work with canada. So death penalty is off the table is going to be life sentences. This gets canada on board for extradition, so April. Sixty thousand one the two are transported to washington and arraigned. And in august the rafale families They value at about three hundred thousand dollars was turned over to a tea for Faye. So this is, you know, these are processes that are ongoing and ages an intersected this time, but you think these guys look like they're going to trial for these murders
and yet he's getting this estate dashes. How is working at the moment so these guys is don't go to trial for a little while it takes forever. You could say that they are being denied their rights to a quick and speedy trial. Some look at it that way Some also say that since the two weren't complaining that there wasn't an issue- and there was other snags in the process- that prevented them from going to trial. Well, one snag occurred because sooner Ashton's lawyer teresa Olsen, who had a very good reputation by the way, also quite the character, the way she dressed the way she would butter to herself, while she was talking before that the jury very outspoken it up, but also just say: oh I'm so nervous about this at the make sure and forget this and she would just kind of rattle. And sometimes to herself, but
out loud. She went in to speak with sebastian and I guess it was not uncommon for them to give a quick hug there. our rules in place about attorneys and their clients and how they interact. Well, one in two thousand to those rules were pushed aside and the king county jail guards, dan, and saw teresa olsen having intercourse with Sebastian into jail cell. So, if you're not happy with the way law enforcement and prosecutions beheading right now, let's just be fair. The defences, behaving any better. Also, if you haven't watched the many series, the night of things on h, It's an amazing show and
I see a lot of parallels between this case and even add ons case highly recommend show, but this was directly lifted from this case yeah. According to teresa, she said that they have and then it kind of went out of control from there. Never had to happen with a hug, but you know, but there is a trap Oh and the trial went from April twenty second through the sixth of two thousand three during trial. They have this physical evidence. They have a lot of circumstantial evidence but deal two gaiters go so far as to pull a play. That Sebastian was an back in high school, called the rope that I'd mention earlier, and this play is about a murder or committing the perfect murder and it's more or less a dark comedy but
they literally are using some of his lines from the play to use against him. like look? He was an evil guy, even in high school and adjusts it's ridiculous stretch, and I I just find that it's it's a terrible precedent to set going back to your high school years and then pulling stuff out to use against you, especially a school play. I was spain and in high school I directed a school play called attack of the moral fuzzy's where people had to choose between given giving somebody a a kidney transplant or Somebody else getting a new car. It was really dark comedy, do I have start worrying about my The class is now being used it
me in the future. Stick to the facts. Stick to the evidence. I found this whole investigation into their past being a little ridiculous, but there was one thing that the prosecutors did point out. That I did think was valid. Sebastian had wrecked the family car and in order to cover it up, he went to a movie that he wasn't around at the time that the car was wrecked, and I have to say that that's little close to home on this whole case. Here of oh wait. A second used going to the movies as an alibi once before in your life now, a huge argument to this case was to suppress their confessions based on our sea mps techniques, of getting them now. Remember already set this up this. Mr big text,
is illegal in the united states and just already explained why, but Canada is not illegal, so the king she would be if the can in police use techniques. There are legal there to acquire information that is very important to a case, and they transfer that information over two authorities in another country. Well, if the receiving country could not have used those techniques is this fair, is illegal and something those two questions, don't have the same answer right. It's very american to let others do your dirty work for your benefit lake Attaining prisoners in areas that are quite in the united states use enhanced interrogation techniques on them I don't like how this goes down.
even if I do see their confessions as being totally truthful and honour if it's not allowed in the states. How do you reconcile this? Well, the judge allows it, what and the judge is in charge until they're, not a bit. You get all of their confessions. You get all of the recordings de wiretaps. everything and you get their friend Jimmy Yoshi. Now jimmy testimony it it's not as questionable, because that's how they got him to talk but again in the eyes of somebody who advocates for them. This is really underhanded and I get it. I really you get it perception, is everything right? Oh yeah, so at trial They have a lot of ammunition at least to show these
two guys, a tea for Faye and sebastian burns people who are murderers and don't give a damn about this dead family. Yeah and let's see you suppressed their confessions, you see have some of this physical evidence. You still have the finger prints on the boxes, the hair, all these other things, but it seems that the Bellevue police weren't moving on them until they had these confessions. So we can play the what, if game in wonder if they could have been arrested, indicted, convicted and charged without this evidence, and that is the whole. The crux of this debate, but I thought I find a really interesting because I haven't talked to hundred people or anything, but it seems like the people. I've spoken with all think that these guys did it.
although not all of them, think that the way that they were prosecuted was correct either. I would be it not that group that when majority whatever you want to call see for me, I'm always going to differentiate between these things, because I'll beyond and say why I think someone's guilty of murder and in this case I would say, I believe these guys did it and I sure how they have so many innocent group saying they didn't do it. If these groups gis were concerned, earned with how our justice system works and not worried innocence or guilt just worrying about the process in what's fair was right, and what's just I could get behind that. I understand the argument I don't know, I don't know exactly still where I fall on that, but I definitely think that there is an argument there. I don't how about the argument on their innocence, because whatever you think about how they got information. I think these guys were being
totally honest when they talked about what they did, actually sebastian, I don't buy when he says he was just telling them what they want to hear. I know that's, you know just subjective But I mean listen to yourself. It's it's the content of what he says in the details. If you just said, oh, we just killed him. That night engage zero details. I can buy. That he's just tell them what they want to hear or we are. We used a bad When you listen, it's their filling in the blanks, their not being fed disinformation, and that's the difference here that I have a problem with spar as their quota quote, confessions and and even jimmy me Yoshi. He gives details that are factual.
If he was getting them wrong again. I would start citing Morandi hey, what's look at, who else could have done this or what not? But they get it right and that's the problem now burns didn't stay silent. He was given an opportunity to talk and talk for widely two hours course it it. It's probably worth looking that up, so you can understand why had to say I am not going to recounted here. Let's, say at least back then, and I know people change right- in a more recent interview he had said that is not the same person. He was back then, because back then he was pretty boastful. Pretty big on himself I don't know if that's prison, humbling him or just he's had time to reflect. Who knows, but he definitely was in love. With his own intellect and heat
definitely saw himself as above most other people would agree with that. A tif was far more humble. I feel that if I'm going to accept they did this. They planned it out and you had. These two guys had this. This idea. They thought that they could pull off the the perfect crime. I dont know why or how they could turn off their emotions. Wall, whiting, out an entire family for money, but I feel that a lot of people they don't think about tomorrow. They don't think about the consequences their actions. They just think about that dream that light at the end of the tunnel, the game Obviously, with any trial, there are appeals and both of them have
earned through their appeals. Have they not be? I there arrogant, and you know what they needed to appeal, because it was there questionable, the gathering of evidence and their confessions. We had to come up with the president of whether a mr big sting conducted by another country is allowed and the way that they argued it. Is they separate the case in arizona from this case, and they say we were talking about two different scenarios here: that guy was in custody
and talking to an informant. We all know that child molesters get hurt in prison, whereas these guys were not in custody, they didn't have any fear- and I guess they're they're, making the argument that what the canadian police did wouldn't even apply or was removed far enough, but I think the wrong in that I actually, I actually do think that it applies So now we just have to determine whether or not we use information from other countries that might not have been gotten in legal manner here, yet the appeals give. government, another chance to take another. get things really make sure that they made the right decision here, but I dont know said: don't you feel like some time? they just go through the motions there they made their decision they're pretty much going.
stand behind it right when it would take something pretty special storing this out there? But you know if there was in american investigator law enforcement figure. Who is assisting that MR big operation up there. Maybe that would have thrown the ranch in vienna, But since it was fully canadian deal- and these guys weren't I mean- It was just so separated out. It was like. Well, that's that was their business. It's legal! There is not for us to worry about that, that's it and they have this evidence, they're going to use it and the judge allowed. It therefore were good were covered. I don't know if I agree with it or not. I think a lot of americans don't care. No, I think they're like oh well, they admitted to it But why are we worried about them anymore? They lost their rights when they murdered these people, and that's lazy thinking that I mean sure
These guys killed a family, they don't deserve any more for thought and then that let him burn I'm fine with guilty people being punished. I'm not fine with the process at which we go about it and I think that's the import question, because if they can do it to somebody that's guilty take, do it every day yeah, it's the short cuts that are taken. They get shorter and shorter and where will beyond. That would be the fear. I know some people can't see that far ahead. They doubt it because they think that the people who are in charge- won't abuse their power that much because they don't do anything wrong. So they have nothing to hide. They won't be the one at the end of that firing squad right and they want the bad people punished been shown that there are innocent people getting sent to prison, and so
the concern of protecting the public. We can have to keep people honest, meaning the people in charge Oh I don't pretend know the answer here. I both sides, but I think it definitely worth the debate and I wouldn't mind if this comes up again and people debate. What should be done with it? I mean maybe someday they do change level the law and say: hey, it's not oh here, so we can't use any information obtained that way from anywhere else either. I know that socks because they probably got the killers, but we have to watch our justice system very carefully, because again you texts are taking short. Cuts could end up in a really bad spot. We already led the world with incarceration for anyone, that's interested in watching more stuff about this case. There's I think it's a twin twenty episode, honor, that's very thorough.
Also on networks. There is the confession: tapes, the netflix one a lot of people say it's completely biased in their favour and it's just garbage blah blah. The ironic thing was when I watched the netflix show, I didn't think it painted them in a good light. It this was more of a commentary on how they got the confession, which was not the best technique. I dont know why people think it so biased. I because it's a very short bit. You can't push all this information in their so I'm sure a lot of people will be like now. It's as hell. That's fine, but I didn't come Thinking they looked very good, so what we got me on this case was that they have information is, in my opinion, but whether they should have used that information where they did or not. That's the question: how do you make that work? did you make it illegal here, because you think it's wrong, or is this just a case
The investigators who were receiving the information they don't really have a problem with the technique. if it was legal, they would have used it themselves. So it's all fair, all fair love and war. at the
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Transcript generated on 2022-08-27.