This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Stephen avery of new zealand. I think what do you think you been following the stephen every case in the united states and you live overseas epps you ve heard of the crew murders, which are the murders of harvey and jeanette crew. Much like the avery case, you have a suspect that the police have gone after and convicted, yet much of the public just doesn't believe they don't buy it. They don't buy the case against the suspect, there's alleged planted evidence, there's bad witness testimony all kinds of problems here, because this is a new zealand case at hand. Just and I are in america- and we know that americans have a tendency to butcher the pronounced stations of words, another which is now will do our best exactly
many of the words that are used over there are maori words and that's the best. I can say it. The crew murders case A local farmer named lend them learn, and this is on june, twenty second of nineteen. Seventy m puke at our new zealand visits, his daughter, jeanette crews, home that she shares with her husband and their eighteen month, old, daughter, rochelle. While he gets there and their harvey nor jeanette are there can find them, but He does see his granddaughter rochelle in her crib and she's, crying and she's dirty, no one's been changing your diaper alleys That day, this will set off an investigation, of course, and sir, specks will arise one being arthur Alan Thomas, a local farmer, but before we go had of ourselves. Let's talk about
His family end. What led up to these murders, UKIP jeanette Lenore crew, was born to a farming family in february of nineteen forty, she would be educated and become a teacher the man she would meet and mary is David. Harvey crew, also known as harvey and he was a lifelong farmer. Before got married though harvey london. I have heard them lars half share of a three hundred and forty acre property and farm house that was left to them by their uncle uncle, Howard chanel, who was the brother of may denmark, which was jeanette mother property, was in puke cow. In fact, it was right next to the demo property, so pretty good location for them, and heather agreed both jeanette and harvey owned. That
pretty they raised cheap and cows and, by all accounts for a very successful in december of nineteen. Sixty eight is when genetic harvey welcome little russian. janine into their lives. Eighteen, months later, Joseph more and ronald right to different men are contacting lend Emily. Jets father and both of them are saying: hey we're trying to get a hold of. your daughter and her husband, and we can't reach them. These are free ins or salespeople that are trying to get a hold of them. One of them was trying to pick up cattle or livestock from the farm. Right land says I I guess I'd better go check it out. He didn't know it but during that weak and we're talking it, this was on the twenty second, starting with the eighteenth, the local delivery man started. opting off items in the mornings and then
the folly mornings, the items that he had dropped off would still be there, so can get a timeframe of windy, stopped response, turning to the public, lend them or shows up to the property, and he says the kitchen, the ports later on and there's a lock in on the back door that has a key in it and according to him, that's normal. The key often in the lock on the back door. Nineteen seventies farm community people are pretty open, don't lock their doors, well then enters the house, and He notices that furniture has been moved. He sees bloodstains on the floor and then He finds rochelle inner crib russia sunken eyes and ears, it's like she's been chewing on her nappies and on the top of her crib so. She's chewed away along the top of her crib and she seems
he had been upset now, in. Denmark chooses to do something very odd here. He leaves the house without taking or, And he heads back to his home and calls ronald right back now run a right is the guy that was supposed to come and pick up some animal, some livestock cancels. He says, don't go there, but it takes. I think it takes about fifteen minutes to hear back from modeled, so he waits at the house until then, He goes and gets owen priest to help him search for genetic harvey only. He doesn't tell oh, and about the bloodstains or about anything maybe being criminal. Here he's gone into a house.
where his son and daughter in law, are missing, there appears to be blood. Possibly a struggle. Does blood smears in an unattended baby he leaves leaves the baby goes and calls a sales person that was passed a pic of livestock. First and then calls a friend, and an additional odd thing here is that he could have made these calls from the crew home I get it if he's freaked out being in the house and he doesn't want to make calls there, but at least take the child this is really weird. I dont have children and if I walked into ass, appeared something wrong like that. I might pick up the child and call the police. That would be my first instinct, but maybe he thinks they laughed and he doesn't want to take their child and come out if they come home and their trials not there, but
either thought was, if he didn't want to make the call from the crew home is because he didn't want to disturb any evidence. I don't know that seems like a stretch, but he's not call the police first, these call in a sales rep and then his colonists friend, to help him look for his son and daughter. yes, now about this, is about one forty, five on june, twenty second lehne return, with owing to the property, and he retrieves rochelle. Now he will too here too, the home of barbara willis, so she can be looked after and owen calls the police to report that there's blood found in the crews home and the couple is. Seeing the father never even does the report. Somebody else makes the first group While lehne heads off to take rochelle somewhere, it said that other people shop to the property because now there hearing that something happened, so not happy
entering the property who are neighbours. Orangist nosey people at three o clock the concept I've, but under orders from the senior sergeant he'll have to wait in our before the house and properly or searched now. He did kind of do quick, walk through, but then after that you know he gets the colleagues toll. Hey get out of there to make sure what else is in there. Just stay stay there and wait for us to get there which are his superior there's so the senior sergeants, letting you know hey this way- does hold up now. The other big clue, aside from the blood is that the dining room table is set and Her had been served and apparently mostly eaten it's as if they were able to have dinner and then maybe they feel next, and then something happened since the baby was in the crib. We assume that they ve been
stan, but the baby away in an harvey was in his arm, chair, in that- and this is a little nasty but his boy and some of his brain matter were on that armchair. So finnish dinner go gets in his arm. Chair to relax, have a cigar whatever he does in his arms an investigation is carried out and they collect fingerprints, blood samples there's a search involving eighty law enforcement officers and as well as civilians. They searched the property looking for harvey engine at they can't find the couple but a scientists from the department of scientific and industrial research analyzes the blood and brain matter any concludes that it must have been a piece of wood that was used to kill the couple. Because he's looking at the bloodstains he's looking at the brain matter, anything's both of the crews must have been bludgeoned to death with a piece of wood and then,
Perhaps that piece of wood was thrown in the fireplace and burned up, because they also have a rug and a cushion that appears to have been burned up and the fireplace has all kinds of ash and debris in it. On august, sixteenth of nineteen, seven, to fishermen head down to the why congo river- and they see a body this floating in it and its wrapped- the new dovey and tied with wire, fencing wire to galvanise steel, wire and pathologist will assist in the recovery of the body, because these these fishermen would go back and get someone gets help. He observes that the woman who ends up being and a fine later as jeanette crew with, not once in the head and her draw was broken and teeth have come out. Possibly struck and then shot or shot in jostled around now, we'll get into what we think happened.
After a while, but one other thought I had was. I find it interesting that, after the couple was murdered, that their bodies were put into the river and I wonder if they had given any thought the idea that maybe they were both tied to the axle to try and keep them under water. Jeanette broke free from it, but The question would be my: would you get rid of them, then that passion I mean if they're already dead, you could just move on. I do oh, that it's quite often someone that knows you they murder you. They try to cover you with a blanket or they try to then want to look at you yeah. They don't want to get you so maybe they were hoping that the bodies would just not be found until they were well past their identifiable state If somebody knows you and is trying to take possession of your farmer, something like that, and they gotta get rid of you-
if you're bodies are their them. They have more to work with to solve this crime. They do think that d opposition could explain many of her teeth coming out of the jaw. But what this does do is that, with the recovery of jeanette, they can see that she was shot. That means that they weren't bludgeoned to death. Now she was struck The bullet is what killed her october. Nineteen seventy up river from where found jeanette, they find the body of harvey crew and he appeared to have been weighed down with a car. Axel he's been wrapped in fabric.
and the same fencing wire is wrapped around him and around the axle, and he too was shot in the head now october figures to be a very key time in this entire case because october, twenty seven nineteen seventy is when a garden The crew farm is searched for a third time. Remember we already reference Stephen every before this is going to start to see why we would say such a thing, the parallels they discover, a shell, case two to three inches into the ground. And they will run tests on this showcasing enable tie this showcasing back to a man named arthur Alan Thomas now what's important about this is all up to this point. We already went over how odd lend embers behaviour was
mean leaving the child behind for and we what amounted to forty five minutes to an hour. While he went back to his house in call the guy who is supposed to pick up livestock to tell him not to come in and go get a guy. You know a neighbour and say: hey, come come over my daughter's house with me up until this point. The father had been the prime suspect, or the primary focus has been on him. Yeah, it's his behaviour was odd. The best way to say it is, he didn't, seem real upset know, and so what we have said it before you, You can't always gave someone's reaction and use that against them, it's it's tricky. Some people, aren't very good at showing emotion, but after this point they were Focused on land, daimler and this car as more issues where this investigation at the time when they first start this. They decided once they understood
that there were shots fired and that that's what fell this couple, they started collecting weapons they collected. Sixty four different rifles and shaka ends from people in the area. And they categorize them. By are these people who had pretty good access to the couple knew them? we're friends or family or where just people who were within a certain radius of their farmhouse five kilometers out. What people that they were checking with was arthur. Alan Thomas, his statements were taken. But they were not corroborated or investigated, and his rifle despite looking like it could be a good match, was returned to him the day after they took it from him. They were focused on tumblr, not on arthur, and they didn't check
his statements. They didn't try to corroborate what he said: his alibi. And let them was the primary suspect and his behaviour was odd. He certainly had access to that farm. Next or his. I know we're talking about his these farmers, like four hundred and thirty acres in his daughters property, was sizeable too, but he was the closest one too. The property for whatever reason they just felt like. Maybe he did it, but now that no, the couple is shot and their running these tests on bullets and their checking forensic we their checking to see if the bullets they they recovered from the bodies could have been fired from any of the rifles they collect. Now they're starting to look and think may arthur Alan Thomas. Did it further on they do some investigating on this actual that's found, and what are they find? Just in so many people?
This actual that it was. They go back to the nineteen fifties. So, twenty years prior to the murderer, finding all the previous owners they find parts of the actual that were welded off are still on his land and the heavy is part of it is what they used to wait. Harvey, and also the fencing wire. The steel wire that they found resembled pretty much the wire that they found on his farm they collected wire from all these different farms, but the wire they found wrapped around harvey an jeanette, closely matched wire on arthur's farm,
and was in close at all to the other wire, or so they say. So. We have this axel, there's big piece of metal that their tying back to his farm, this fencing wire. They also get jailhouse confessions during this time. But now during the investigation but after they ve arrested him of people saying that, yet he told me that he killed them and then he they were killed with twenty two caliber rifle and he owns one and now they're saying we found this cartridge in it belongs to you. So open and jack Gay said seems pretty straightforward. They say that arthur had a preview. this romantic interest and jeanette, and she rebuffed him and he held onto this jealousy and got up
asked with her. They also had prior incidents at their far the harvey and jeanette did where they had a break in happen where only sentimental items to Jeanette were stolen. Nothing of real. value like monetary value, but things like jewellery and staff that she owned so they're alive that sounds like a slighted lover, but her and arthur had her dated or had any romantic relationship. So obviously it's he was angry about this and that's the emotive. They paint see god jealous anyone over there and he shot these two. We also have another. I witness an eyelid, his name bruce roderick, who happened to be working on a near by farm, and he says he witnesses a woman pull up in a car.
And she's out by the car in the driveway of the crews house. Now you put in the whole factor of was the baby being taken care of four five days. Will, who would do that? Obviously, the murderer or some an accomplice of the murderer? This man saying he saw a woman there two days before it was reported that there are missing everything points to arthur and they do collect a lot of evidence on arthur. They collect his rifle again. They collect a single twenty two brass cartridge. They collect fourteen twenty two cartridges that are found in a glass jar. They also find a twenty two long rifle icy, I box, but the boxes and contain the original ammunition it contains. Twenty two bird shot ammunition. They tracked down infirm,
and about the batch number that's on the box, and it would have held twenty caliber long rifle cartridges with an eight embossed on them. Although the and this will come up, the icy I markings would have included an arrow design that the showcasing found in the garden did not now with all that when I first went into this case erin, I thought this guy's guilty as hell go to the list. What's pointing at arthur Alan Thomas at this point. Well, there's prior incidents at the farm. He close by so is this a neighbor rivalry. If he had a room, and take interest and jeanette and was rebuff now he's pissed off and he's doing things. to the farm is stealing things from Jeanette we haven't axel, which Belonged to him, he was abe owner of this actual and he had discarded it, but
brothers will say. Oh someone took that acts or five years prior wasn't honour our property. Yet he was. As a prior owner of this axle. This axle is used in the disposal of the bodies. The bailing wire they are. The fencing wire is a pretty good match for what he has and then you have a twenty two caliber cartridge. Shell found that They say comes from his gun and they match up the the hammer mark and age say. This is absolutely from him expert witnesses up there on the stand to say all this came his place, and it is open and shut right. Now you talked about the the burglary but there were some other incidents that happen as well. At one point, the house was set on fire, although they are able to extinguish fire and then later on, the barn was
on fire and it actually burned to the ground kindest your stuff here again which he suspects at this point, its lend daimler, who is genetic father enemy of arthur Alan Thomas, who may have been a slighted person who is interested in her one of the times that there was a fire lend emma was actually with the couple somewhere else, so he couldn't have set the fire. He couldn't have set one of the fires for sure it and also if he wants the farm, if this is a property dispute between the father and the children, I don't know if you'd want to set fire to it unless he's trying to scare them off months before the murders lens wife dies. She leaves her half of the demo or farm to her daughter, jeanette, she and her husband harvey have this farm next door to the demo or farm and then she now owns half the damn their farm, so between to farm. She owns a machine,
has been. They have three quarters of this now and lehne only has half of his own farm, at least in terms of ownership and lynn is said to be in financial ruin, yeah, I'm not sure fees and ruin, but he had at least ten thousand dollars worth of debt, which nine in seventy. That's a lot of money. Ten thousand today, not so bad. So there may be an issue there where he's upset with his daughter, basically take over the farms yeah absolutely and he would have access to this farm he's basically next door, and if he can expand his property, he can get more livestock. He can take their livestock whatever and made more money their whole livelihood, and it might be another reason why rochelle wasn't directly harmed or livestock or even the dogs. Now, when they invest These things, let's go
the baby roquat the baby again had been chewing on wet nappies. She had been chewing on the cot that she was in her eyes, looked sunken and she was dirty so she could have been left for five days, it's possible, but to pediatricians and nurse all agreed that she had to have been taken care of somewhat, because they felt that she hadn't loss quite enough weight. If she were left alone for five days, it just makes sense. They also said there appeared to be some evidence that her nappy had been changed during that time. So you put that, together with the fact that the dogs looked very healthy, livestock look taken care of. it's very strange. Why would these things have to take place that way? If you were just coming to kill the couple you would give a damn about their livestock or their dogs with you. This is hinter kaifeng right there, murderer stayed on the property for awhile. Well, that's stick. Did someone stand the property I dont know?
everybody's saying they did but almost sounds like third suggesting that they came by once in a while by which to revisit a crime scene. Unless you didn't suspect anybody, would you now discover So we have our to suspects. Both of these men could visit the property land emma was essentially next door. Arthur Alan Thomas lived thirteen kilometers away, but now he could is it the stuff? You always really want this holiday at amazon that stuff that is discounted if you're naughty or nice. The keep things
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to arthur. There was a man who had worked on this axel and was pretty much the local maintenance and automotive guy. Whatever rod rasmussen, he describes cutting this all from various vehicles or trailers and replacing it denies. Knowing about this axel He never confesses to yeah. I've worked on that and this is it but arthur's like yeah he's the one that cut it out, and these are the cuts, and this is the left over parts that are on my farm, that your finding that match perfect The key to this piece of metal that was found on harvey's body, so rasmussen is a factor now because he was I endorse the last person to handle this actual and it doesn't just end there either because
Rod says that he finds three guns under a water tank, This was on his command all batch, which is a beach house. One of the web and was a twenty two caliber. He claims that each eyes to give it to the police, but they seem very interested until a relative of his name, Paul jelinek, accuses Rasmussen and his wife of being in view. old in the murders and feeding the baby. So now we have another person saying oh, I know who that woman was, it was residences, wife, rod will say, He turn those weapons over to the police, but the police will have no record of this. They will not be able to find any interaction he had with the police. switch is somebody's? Turning in a gun, you think that they would. down the serial numbers and stuff like that. So I would hope that that would be recorded So we have some suspects to look at we ve, given you
some background as the why they might be of interest. But we need us focusing now on the main piece of evidence. Let's go through some of the other of two I mean the wiring justly with hair, now you can say yeah. This hair looks just like that hair, but his really scientific, All these are farms all of them use this wire. They took samples from nine different farms, But it's kind of a small sample I'm assuming its all farms at work within the general area. So why would somebody from very far away come over and do this so we're back to the actual, and they know that they were filled with a twenty two calibre and they find this cartridge while on the axle they're trying to tie it to thomas, because he and his father had possession of it and they find the stubs from the actual buried on the farm tipp, but they really camp
move that it wasn't taken away five years before that's the alibi, for the actual is we haven't seen this axel for five years, some men took it away, but that's just hearsay and she's them saying that happened, but the police are able to prove that it definitely was on the farm and that he had access to this axel. what sort of even Well, they were able to trace it back about two decades. They can't trace it back to recent times, but he can't prove that it wasn't. There all is their whole. Story's five men came and took it not these five men and give names. It's a very general story but who has to prove what exactly. So, let's get down to the most important piece of evidence in this entire case, which is exhibit three fifty it's the shell casing found in the garden
it wasn't found. After two searches in these were very thorough searches, but if you, if you know how large a twenty two caliber shell is its rather small and if this is in grass or if this is in some sort of rough edge of some kind, you're not gonna, see it. So I can buy that they wouldn't have found this thing until mid. searches later so to searches, and then they find it on the third now the reason why they say that the garden was search for the third time was because, on the eleventh of october of nineteen, seventy, a detective johnson is looking over photographic evidence and he sees a spot outside it. How's, from which a shooter could draw bead on harvey crew, and they say You stand on this ledge near a window,
naturally alleged, but it's kind of like a a brick part. The house that comes off the house next to the window if the shooter stood on that and pushed his rifle through an open window that he could have in eight at harvey sitting in his arm, chair and there is a photograph showing that that, while that's possible and harvey was shot in the chair, ok, but we'll get into it later on how likely this is october. Twenty sixth inspector bruce Hutton ass, sergeant jefferies if the garden had been sieves search back in august sieves. meaning you take a very fine great. Pull the dirt on it, and then you let the dirt and and sediment go through, and it just leaves any larger objects, such as a bullet or shell and jeffreys replies, no this is odd because some say it had been back. Over twenty. Seventh, please
have they've already collected, arthur Thomas's, rifle and cartridges identical to the showcasing found in the garden. October. Twenty seven just so happens to be the day that they search it again. They are trying to use a fork and a sieve. So these efforts, to loosen the ground and then the other person sieves it. But the ground is too Dante's the sieve they resort to using a fork and fingers method and the two detectives charles and parks are the one sitting there digging up and saving and somewhere between eleven thirty, a m and twelve thirty p m that day. They find this I'll casing buried two to three inches in the ground. Now they pull this case he's out of the ground dry, soil or dry mud comes out of it because I because the whole ground his damp, its muddy yeah, why Would it be dry inside and wet are everywhere else. It would just be wet everywhere.
now police say in others an experiment done to see whether this was possible and they say that they were able to show surprisingly that you could have dried MA inside, of a showcase if it was in damp soil, this area, They found the shell casing was fifteen feet, ten inches from the wall where the window is, then the farmhouse which, if you're up on this brick stoop and you ve, shot a bullet through the window, arthur's twenty two caliber rifle was a pump action, so it a jack the show, your elevated. That makes sense, that's about where the shell casing woodfall, that that's what they're the reconstruction is, what they say told them hey. We should look for the showcasing. If there is one over in this area and this window that was shot through, has multiple
horizontal slats, you can open up the top slats and leave the bottom was closed and that's what you would have to do to shoot through the window, not leaving not breaking the glass with the the gunshot, so that's their reconstruction of this, but something curious happens which wool it caused? A major issue for this investigation later on, arthur thomas will be charged and his first trial is in nineteen. Seventy one he will be found guilty and sentenced. All of this evidence will come into question the the shell casing, that is found the axle, the wiring all this stuff and he will be granted a retrial in nineteen. Seventy three but same outcome
is found guilty, nobody in the courtroom thought that they could find him guilty again. They were absolutely convinced that it was obvious. There was at least reasonable doubt by the way. There's a booby called reasonable doubt out there about this, Sir arthur we'll be pardoned and nineteen. Seventy nine so he's exonerated he's let out he is given actually innocent status. They reward him with nine hundred and four two thousand dollars and nineteen eighty so a year after his pardon which in today's money is about four and a half million dollars, falada money. He in prison for nine years, so nine years, four and a half million dollars Some of you might say hey. I would the nine years in prison for four and a half million. But let me tell you, you really one indeed
number of nineteen. Seventy nine is, when he's pardoned and the prison farm that he's at the superintendent walks up to him and shakes his hand and says I got a christmas present for you pardoned. They said it first arthur thomas in believe him, oh yeah, as a joke, I mean he was convicted twice. You could understand his release. thence to believe such news. He said he felt like he was being treated like a human being and because, before that he was Monster, double murderer despair of the bodies. Let's talk about the problems with the reconstruction in and this evidence, because when I first heard about this case- and I looked at the evidence I'll tell you right now, like this guy's guilty, I didn't with I'm like I don't care what evidence
bank and in a lot of a more pretty much based on this man, was, can charged and convicted and found guilty on a single shell casing, and I thought no he was found guilty for a lot more than just a shell casing. Here's an actual there was wire. There is the shell casing, jailhouse confessions down. There is a lot that, bad for him. This was in june so that reconstruction says they Harvey was shot through a window june in new zealand is actually the winter time or the colder months, also the ground as well, because it was raining. Why would? Have their window open if it's cold and radio the shooter would have to come up? open the window shoot. This man his chair and then run on the other side of the house gain access in and shoot jeanette who
is standing there not moving resist the case. It just doesn't sound plausible and I would urge anyone whose wandering about this whole reconstruction to look up the images from it and you, and see where the shooter, what it had to have been an where harpy would have had to have been it. It's an awkward place. I didn't think of it at first cause. It sounded very plausible there, the prosecution theory here, the more you look into the more you think. That's that's kind of weird. Unless the skies like of a ninja stealth, I tried to assassinate this couple is no reason why somebody would jump up on the stoop, take their first shot from outside and then run around in and do a finishing shy, The way I see it is, I think he may have been shot after his wife is struck after genetic struck, because I think jeanette was struck a knock down before anybody was shot that just now
opinion I could see it either way, but I almost feel like there was a threat going on there and this person did need a shoot through a window. They didn't need to break in the door, had the key in the lock, again it's a farm house, this in modern times where people are more paranoid, about locking up and being that the bodies were not at the crime scene missing had been dismissed. of the river- we don't know the angle that they were shot in all we do know is we know that because of the blood and the brain matter on the chair that harvey was sitting in the chair. We don't know which way his head was facing, we don't know again for sure whether the shooter results are not. We just find it unlikely that he was outside of the house at the time, because then he would have to run around and hope that jeanette just stayed in that same room, not moving, because she was obviously killed
right there in the room with hearty. I thought, okay, so it's possible that they planted this twenty caliber shell out in the garden, but I was still thinking well what about the actual? What about this wire? I don't care if they planted. The shell mean its crappy if law forspent planting evidence, but we still have this actual. We still have this sensing wire, but then you take into account the wires, not a perfect match for anything and when was the wire purchased, what what length of wire did they cut from it's, it's not a perfect match, and then this access, if you can find the owner of it
find the murderer, but they cannot prove that arthur had this axel at the time of the murder, and he cannot prove he didn't have it it just his word against. There's the only real thing tying him too. This is this showcasing everything up and this point is hearsay, oh, by the way that the jail house confession witness very unreliable and had said multiple people had confessed to things. They said that he was a total swindler and there it it's like was that a real jaws confectioner was at him trying to get less time him trying to work with the prosecution. So you throughout the jailhouse confession from this other eye. Witness
we're down to the casing the cartridge? As we said it was found on the third search inspector hutton, had ass, sergeant Jeffreys. If the garden had been sieves searched, the reply was no, but this is very curious, because inspector hutton should know because he he looked through the reports he's the lead investigator he's the one in charge of the investigation right and so if they had saved search it. That would have been in the report and he could have read it, and he would know that this little conversation happens the day before the search happens and the shell cases found. What else is problematic, with his showcase? The bullets that they recovered from harvey in Jeanette? Had the number eight stamped on the back, which means they came from me specific manufacture
sure specific brand. Now these showcasing they recovered from the garden happens to be these, aim brand of bullet, but from a different batch or category So the one that was found in the garden was a category four, but the bullets recovered from the victims would not have come from a category four shell, so this shell, they found they prove his from his rifle. But how could it have been used in the murder if the bullet that was shot it doesn't match the batch and in number this all came out in a nineteen. Eighty royal commission inquiry that says there
major missteps, and this investigation. This shell actually does not tie him to the murder. Now, unless they planted it or they said it was found two to three inches deep in the dirt. What if it had been there for years when not had anything to do with the murder, but the show was found in a location in the garden that was close to the window where their recreation, the reconstruction of this murder, puts the shooter at the window. This is the perfect spot for the rich creation, but if the window shooting doesn't work, then this is the worst spot. You know to plant evidence from a rifle now, after it's found, of course, the shell casing is described by multiple people is described by detectives, charles and detective parks. It's also described by the scientists
from the department of scientific industrial research, all of them describe it very similarly, but inspector hutton describes it a little differently. He describes the showcasing as having in inky stain which is precisely what you would see if there was corrosion honest, a casing like it's been left out the elements exactly that something else that points to possible planting of evidence, because, here. We have the inspector saying I saw this on it and yet the other people who looked at it, a scientist and two other detectives, didn't describe seeing and inky staying. So it's very suspicious hoddan as the only person. That's too
grabbing at this way, if it's a clean, fresh shell, then it hasn't been sitting out there for months now. The other idea or theory here is that the shooter or, if were presuming its arthur, is he had an empty shell loaded in his gun and ass. He was walking up to the house. He rack the slide and rejected this shell and then walked into the house and fired different ammunition were ammunition from a different batch from the same company
to the victim's? That's pretty him like I'd know, that's not why. Why would he want to give away his location racking the slide as it will as he walked up to the house? Why would he have an empty shell or spent shell in his gun, walking to commit a murderer? That's just doesn't make sense. Why was the window open on a cold night there's a lot of problems with this recreation? That's throwing the shell and the idea of how this went down on question. investigative journalist, pat booth, as was forensic scientists named james brought, are the ones that broke this shell case wide open. One of the. I guess you could say that the way that you could show that this was planted as well, is that, as of that october, twenty seventh date the police had for about a week. The thomas rifle
well as ammunition that would have matched the showcasing that was found in the garden so they had access to all of arthur stuff and they could it taken any of it and put it anywhere in with the recreation of the shooter at the window, pane throw their own. Are we found it and which really bad about all this? Is this in The geisha was so poorly conducted that anywhere. You look whether it's the finger printing statements by different witnesses. What have you all that was poorly recorded so on the fingerprinting they collected all these fingerprints from the murder scene. They were not able to identify multiple fingerprints. I think it's up to twenty five. They didn't take fingerprints from Rasmussen. They didn't take fingerprints from any of the wives a just
Worse. Seven vehicles were seen at the crew property between wednesday and monday of the week in question, but they weren't tied to individuals, so perhaps missed opportunities. If you saw vehicle there the woman, have one guy saw They never were able to identify her. They could have at least gone to the families in the area and checked out what kind of cars they had and did that kind of investment but they didn't do that. The other thing tat happens is they test fire all of the rifles three times, except for one and one of them. They test fire six times they dont collect these spent bullets and shall casings and catalogued them into evidence. They just get rid of yeah. They could have easily taken a showcasing because they weren't having to leave
get into evidence and just planted at the farm house. They could do that. They all so destroy a lot of evidence that is collected from the scene later on. One hundred and thirty five exhibits were destroyed in nineteen. Seventy three yeah on these rifles, the sixty four rifles that you were talking about that they collected and they were test firing. I'm thinking Well, who cares if the shell matches or doesn't match? What's the rifling say on these bullets collect and does the rifling match arthur's twenty two rifle cause? If that's the case, then I don't care about the show on the garden depending on who you listen to which expert dedicated at one will say. The bullets recovered from the victims do match the the rifling marks that that the barrel of arthur's rifle would leave others say absent
it does not now the rifling in a barrel is plains of steel that her twisted. Now there either twisted to the right or the twisted to the left and then there's of those planes you have between four to six, depending on the rifle paul that they were able to identify how many planes, the barrel should have had in which weight was twisted and they're saying that it doesn't match his rifle. If nothing else, the bullets that they recovered from the victims are inconclusive, to his rifle, he cannot say one way or another cause just wasn't enough of the bullet left, but you can say that they had the now
rate stamped on them, which says there from a different batch which does not match the casing that was found in the garden. The planes that they refer to, at least in the commission report, are typically lands and groups that we refer to as in america again. These are just twisted flat steel going down the barrel with is what gives the bolt the spin think of a quarterback, throwing a football, the more spin you have. The more stability you have in the straighter. The bullet goes but different styles, a weapon have different different groups in and they leave different Markings on a bullet, they really can't say if the bolts recovered came from his gun. At that point, I don't care about the shell in the garden anymore. It's inconsequential, the other the bullet recover from Jeanette was more intact. Then the fragments recovered from harvey
but it still not enough, for. I dont think anyone along and say we know it came from this weapon definitively. All they can say is it's possible now hutton to his dying day says he absolutely did not plant any evidence, and his daughter is even out there trying to clear his name, because any news article you read says cop who planted the have nots but something it's really bad. Maybe he didn't plant this. If what these two officers in these two skaters that found the shell of it with what they say is true that it was two to three inches into the dirt that doesn't sound like it was there for three months. That sounds like it had settled there for a long period of time. well, but they say they are able to showed that casing was fired from his rifle yeah. They check the
the hammer mark on it. The the firing pin mark all these things, and it was the brand that he owned at his house. In the commission report and it is funny cause the news headlines, say: police admit to planting evidence, but in the commission report it actually says it is more plausible that this was planted. Then it was not, but they never come out and say: yeah we planet evidence that you're, never gonna, find a commission report or any sort of report on any kind of investigation. That straight up says that anything, it's because they say the reason they didn't prosecute any one in the department for planting evidence was because they couldn't show or approve who could have done it or who would have done it. They have suspicion there. They don't have anything definitive enough to take some
in law enforcement to court. Over this I mean they keep saying hutton, but we don't know, I mean if let's say an officer did planted, was it him or was it the guy the found it right they could have been like ass. We ve been out here almost two hours. Let's just get down with this crap they want to show will give Michel a review reveals as much that hutton had been under a lot of pressure. There were overall high profile murders at the time that he was having to oversee the investigations of em, so spread a little thin. Then that's what they're saying by it. I dont know that it's acceptable to people in there your job, and this is a very high profile case, because double murders? Don't happen in farming communities up in this region, not that common. What were left with here is this man was twice convicted and then pardoned and when he was part and the prime minister at the time was sir Robert Muldoon. He was told dont pardon him. This is the quote you
make a mockery of our system of justice, but I think it was brave of the prime minister to pardon arthur thomas. You had this well respected, couple murdered in their own home. He who's going to say that the person that was not committed just once but convicted twice of the crimes was going to be, let go and then later of course, he would be paid what amounts to a million dollars it had to have been a very controversial decision, but when you go through the air, and so you see that the police weren't record things very well. They weren't career parading statements they weren't doing enough investigating in fact it was described in, review as them going from their got instinct and that's why they focused on denmark first because he just sent weird signals to them and then after that, because of the shooting gas that they covered. Oh wait. Maybe it was. Someone else await me,
its arthur thomas, because he's when you possum, the own, the axle that was found to be with harvey's body in the water. You here all the time police at tunnel vision mainly focused on this person? Well, in this case, it wasn't just tunnel vision, it was poor, recording it was poor documentation, and if you want to get into all these reports, you can read them, and there are hundreds of pages, and you can see just how they didn't things down, they didn't take very good note, and so what you are left with is a very good possibility that at they fired a shell, took the shell casing and planted it in the garden and and later mysteriously to frame and who may or may not have been guilty, but when it comes down to it, when you have a planting of evidence and you dont have a clear motive and you can't show that
this wiring is definitely that wiring in that the actual was in his possession. It all becomes got. Instead, and that's not good enough to convict a man, and in this case here, nine years in prison before he was let go there It's can make a mockery of the justice system if they pardon him. It's always humorous for me to hear when judges is prosecutors. Were anyone that's in charge says we can't go back on this, because it will make a mockery of our system, and I think it actually reinforces with the public that you're doing there, thing in it tells us that you are willing to check yourself air correct along the way I, like. See this. I don't even know if arthur's center guilty, but the investigation proves that there wasn't beyond a reasonable
the crews daughter, rochelle two thousand ten she's, the one that pushed and got a review done. This investigation, and in the end, have you seen two clear her grandfather lend daimler a being invite all in the murders which, of course, pleased her. But it's to reinforce the idea that, to this day the police believe that our their Alan thomas is: the likely killer of harvey engine at crew, which I think is like a job in his direction. Yeah you be but we're gonna. Stick it tee one more time and adjust is more weight to the decision that the prime minister, sir Robert Muldoon, had to make back when back in nineteen. Seventy nine the Thomas family felt that this reinvested, geisha was whitewashed,
and there are their quotas. We ve been cheated. The facts haven't come out. They have moved on from nineteen. Seventy pat booth, the investigative journalist he was asked about this. Should they reopen the case? Obviously they don't have the killer to this day. How are we going to bring justice to his family? or families and pat booth said: there's no reason to reopen it, because he feels that they were able to clear arthur Alan Thomas's name. Pat booth goes on to say that he believes that jeanette killed her husband and then killed herself days later and then wrap them up. Zambian went to the river like now. I think the theory is that lend ampler would have moved the bodies, bad move, jeanette. Maybe he could do it, but no one Don't they? I don't really think anybody believes that lend emma could have moved harvey crew. He wishes
it'll too big, moved him by himself. He would have had to have had help ina. We talk before about motive and you dont have always have a motive, but I think in a case like this, where people said that arthur Thomas had, crash on jeanette and wanted her and she had rebuffed him. There is nothing that I could find that supports this idea that harm and jeanette would have killed each other, a murder, suicide thing, yeah, yeah Things supports that. If we're we're gonna go off the deep and there I mean you might well be, I need to believe all the other crazy theories that the police came up with and couldn't support. So in the end And how do you some of this case justin? I went into it thinking this guy was guilty. And even in the face of a lot of the issues it wasn't until I figured out the problem with the the shell casing
arden that I have my aha moment. Undecided. Ok yeah. No, this is a bad investigation and I dont know if they were framingham as I dont assume malice when incompetence is so prevalent in today's world, but do I think that when did this too, I think that rasmussen did this flip. A coin rasmussen was kind of technically last guy, with the access to the actual, in my mind, or lin could have gone over there to arthur's got the actual because it so much and if he knew where it was, then he could have done that, but that seems a little fetched unless he'd gotten it prior to the murders, because why would he go over there and risk being seen to get this piece of metal? He could away these bodies down with anything. I I don't think arthur
was the killer, but I I understand why the police might have gone for him and decided that he was a prime suspect when the evidence falls apart. I don't have much of a an opinion anymore and the police won't go. How can we investigate? Because most of the evidence has been destroyed? You can't go back interview key witnesses from forty years prior. It's it's done you! You cannot solve this crime at this point. The other question for me was: were the prior insight involving the burglary and the arsons where those related to the murders and I kind of think they were now building up of conflict. I would say that because of the poor investigation,
that what we are left with is an unsolvable murder. At this point, we wouldn't be fair of me to start pointing fingers than guessing who, I think, killed anyone, because there's too much room here for fabrication of evidence, and I know we have other cases where police have been accused. But to me this is worse because they had in their possession a rifle. and ammunition that they could have used to plant the showcasing and they we have done so and no would be the wiser and the only reason they were able to figure it out was because of pat booth and Jim Sprott. Some of the problems with the investigation, the crime scene, as poorly preserved. Many people went through one detective, even left his notebook on top of a table. Cars were parked on the front line. For the first day there were things scene and photographs, but not taken and evidence, one of which was an oil skin. They don't know affair,
had any bearing on the investigation of the crime or anything, but it wasn't taken it evidence they don't know the front of the house. given priority and not the rear They know now that they should have focused on the rear of the house. Fingerprinting evidence evident, seizure, photography, all that was affected adversely they say because they were taking a lot of items. Um what amount to the wrong part of the house if they were looking for evidence and fingerprinted invocation just poorly documented. This evidence was not secure either they don't have good records of who had what at what times, and it makes for a very bad investigation
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Transcript generated on 2022-10-16.