« The Generation Why Podcast

The Death of Tamla Horsford - 466

2022-05-01

November 3rd, 2018. Forsyth County, Georgia. Tamla Horsford attended a party where she was the only black person among a group of white people. Tamla was found dead in the homeowner’s yard on the morning of November 4th. From the beginning, the police treated her death like an accident, but crime scene evidence, details of the party, and police conduct indicate there may be more to the story.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joint wondering plus in the wondering app to listen ad free from wondering. I did. Are you doing I'm doing really good. Just in power you I'm doing good We do have a shout out to do axis and Jacob have an anniversary coming up so happy anniversary.
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the more I read and the more I studied up on everything that happened after the event, the more convoluted and confused an absolutely mine, gold? I was at this entire story so with that. What are we talking about tonight before I say that. Let me say that when I went into this case, I went in not knowing what to think, because I had questions. I say to find answers to before. I could even have a starting point I had no idea going into it. How I would feel- and I think, I came out feeling upset, but tonight we're talking about the november third, twenty eight teen death of tambo horse furred in for I've county georgia, tat was forty years old? She was away and mother of five children her husband was leander horse for She was originally from the caribbean. She was born,
in saint Vincent and nineteen, seventy eight she to the? U s when she was eleven years old, she met her husband in Florida. They have five children together her youngest son, was for at the time of this event. She was described as being very outgoing. The life of the party It was always laughing dancing having a great time her husband Is quoted as saying I can definitely say that she was the class, yes, women, that I've ever met and my life she had a of gold. I've never met anyone like that. My entire life so they ended up in forsyth county georgia because of lenders. Job now in two thousand and thirteen when they moved we know this is a suburb of the atlanta metropolitan area. So let's get to this case just in what brought tabula to this
house, where this incident happened, She had some friends and they were planned, in a adult slumber party? This isn't exactly a hey. Everyone just show up and robin spend the night together it, it's more or less hey, we're gonna have a party, and I have preparations if anyone wants to drink or party hard, you can spend the night here and it's a a new leave in the morning. So if you, want to come over and cut it pretty bad, and here we can do this. That's a good plan. Because, as we know, when you lie give a party and you and drinking it's dangerous. So this is at least from the start, a good plan and some care where was behind all of this, these women you each other because of the local youth football league. They had sons involved in it, and was john myers birthday shit
invited a group of all the moms to spend the night and she trying to be responsible and she didn't want anyone to drink and drive. So she said you can spend them. If you want to, it was superb to be a girls, night out or a woman's night in. I don't know how you want to put that, but her boy, and Jose Pereira and a friend of his named Tom smith, who happened to be another husband of one of the women who was at the party, ended up being there, and they were going to be sequestered to the base meant where they had a home theatre arrangement. So that happens. I've been supposed to go out one night when the wife or whoever's having friends over and then my plan, all through and unlike our stay home, but I'll try stay out of everyone's hair and even maybe go grocery shopping, just try to be away from everything
Tumblr shows up with an over bag and a bottle of tequila which, It seems normal to me she's planet spending the night and he's brought her own alcohol because I would bring my own alcohol erin because I'm not going to show up and drink that crap beer that they have in the fridge that was available for everyone, I'm not going to show up and drink the worst liquor ever, I'm at a show with my own bottle cause I'm gonna drink my own stuff, because I know it's good for their simpkins use of how many people the party justin there is this thing the forsyth twelve right and supposedly the count includes nine women to men and women. husband. I don't think, that's quite accurate. I think we're looking at here is: there are eight people who man to spend the night an angle stamina and their say in one of these men was actually someone who, I guess, head dropped his wife off and was
owing to pick her up? So maybe he was therefore a little bit of time. So I think the original count would be there were these women and then two men in the house and, like you, said there baby staying out of the way watching sports. How said that? and while I was the only one who smoked at the party and she stepped out under the balcony throughout the night, smoker cigarettes, although their will, two types or to brands of cigarettes that will be found at this party? So it's possible. Somebody else at this party also smoke cigarettes, and this is why air and we covered other cases- cases where in say this is the only person only did this did is the sewing personated that, but there are two groups of people at this party. There are, the women and men maybe they're just saying she's, the only woman who's a smoker at the party right. But since they don't say it, we don't know for sure they'll be running theme of people. the party saying tat
was the only one doing this or that the rest of us word and that just becomes a thing. say that she smoked marijuana during the evening, but John asked. Or to stop. She said that her her boyfriend, Jose Perreira, was pre trial officer and he couldn't be around drugs, any didn't approve of job you so he's kind, affiliated with law enforcement, but it wasn't hey, you don't smoke marijuana and my house it was like hey. Can you put that away? We, it was just I've does a very clear. as or almost teasing conversation, not a you're doing, something wrong and don't smoke part of my house, while the two men were down there's watching a sports game. I think it was football, its that they eventually went up in third hang out with the ladys upstairs and they play cards against humanity, which I have never played that just in my gosh, it's fun
game. But it's one of those games where its it allows. People that my be a little less edgier whenever to let loose and safer or do things that they normally wouldn't do. So it's a great party card game. Yes, it is So one of the questions people have justin is if you're having a party and there's I'll call involved, and we know that tabula brought tequila shirley. If something happens, couldn't alcohol I'll be involved as one of the factors. Absolutely and that's one of my initial impressions of this case is everyone at parties drinking getting drunk right off the bat witness testimonies not going to be great and without a hall and drugs accident can and do happen, it's a thing so throughout
night there hanging out, but it sometime around eleven thirty, when two of the gas leave now said that tallow stayed awake, she was doing stuff when the party was winding down. She was still either some food in the kitchen or having a cigarette by John and Jose, say they were. too bad at around one thirty, a m and the last listen to see, tabula, worse, brigitte, fuller and her husband came in picked her up from the party at one, forty, seven, a m, and she claims that she saw tabula eating a bowl of gumbo and tat. Was it you? gonna go outside and have one last cigarette before she went to bed and nobody said that PAMELA was a raging drunkard stumbling or anything like that. They're saying we won was pretty even keel and holding their liquor just fine, so this house is equipped with they home security system.
and it will actually record when doors, open and close so there is some idea of when that back door to the balcony opened and closed after brigitte left right. Then we have the following times at work: forty nine the back door opened at one. Fifty that door closed. and then at one, fifty seven that back door opened again so. We really have on file here for win. we assume Tumblr went out for her last cigarette and then at that for ten a m that their guest at the party least go to work. in forty five another guest left and then it thirty, one of the married couple at the party banded up leaping. So it's not until eight forty five in the morning when Johns aunt, who also lived there, went into the kitchen she was going to get some coffee
and she saw something in the back yard. So she over to look and saw tamara lying face down in the grass and her name was: Madeline went upstairs to get sean and she told her something's wrong with your friend from the islands. What do you know about? there's no one called justin. Let's play the nine one, one call learn I am for anyone that doesn't like hearing nine one. One calls its little over seven minutes long, so just fast forward a little bit. But how can one I need to look at like on the address pull for the for forty. I would like what luck with a bang. More importantly, would require. What is your name
you're a liar in your frederick, fair enough, yeah. Okay, what's going on, I want people over like the look of a point too bad. One of them failed on the balcony. He was drinking or we can point out the outside and keeping fake down in the backyard. Looked at me and getting there if you fell off the balcony, forty fifth, okay, if you're breathing- I don't know, I don't know about you. How old is she at forty one here hold on
hey. This is Deborah: hey y'all check the feed she's breathing she's, not moving wandered she's is not breathing pack at the chateau feather tesla. He employee will go down in the yard. She is Ok, you know if he were busy the anyway what I am without that? I'm not sure on ever think anything theory blood anything to wear
Actually, though, I dunno, if I should move her over on the girl, okay, I mean, can you just check and see she's breathing? He could not breathe then, and you know, she's gone the work. That is okay, though I'm completely not sure, okay, and not feeling glad that you would
That what I can see without moving her over, I had a pamphlet, and she admitted do you know if she was suicidal at all. I have no clue. I've met her one other time, yeah, like my girlfriend, said before over last night and the, whereas her birthday party, where not the woman that we believe to be the but for girlfriend birthday party. Instead of having everybody go out, she had everyone satellite and she was the last one. I saw before What do you mean? Everybody would typically put up that last one in the kitchen. She was just waiting around for the guide or waiting until the morning attack happened
I am worried she would have felt part of the deck from the ground and I would probably say the twenty feet. I can the people I remember when he would be on the railing the railing it felt as though he will have four feet of hair and what is her name? I know her name apollo given the short for tangier camera, was she there with anyone else or him port for hr at F, o r d e. Now- and I don't believe anybody was my girlfriend- have cameras here on the back deck that we can check again that I think would have caught the incident if she fell from here again through
it. It's hard to say if he fell from the deck or if she was already downstairs, he was the only european I'm Sarah marshall amplifier about them the thing. Yet he would. He was the only smoker owning them on the back deck right now and your cigarette lighter the finger out here. The county tennessee. Where are a Clinton? I okay have all the
well, that where they lost daughter, they still at your house who won't let her go. Okay, there are four people that were here last fall that are no longer okay, and I just let this morning or leave last night, we wouldn't harm the week reconsider or she'd gotten along with them a good word for the door open on her bound. Ok, but I would, I think, the last time I personally thought ham were probably about one in the morning before I got upstairs the bed pan
And then, at that point he was the only one in the kitchen. Okay, then, when everybody is, I have one caveat about the polenta, your subdivision south during the family, you discriminate and it is going to be around back and that the way you need to go will require an eagles up. The regular, the there'll be one one. One card street, for example.
and a thing called work in Calgary. How can I pay you to walk around the back or they can go around the side? I'm gonna grab my shoes and then I'll direct air it'll be easier for them. Cause he's laying in the yard down the carrier downstairs I've had a fair amount of I'll. Let you go then you're welcome, so earned. We have john calling on one one trying to describe what
and here giving up and handing the phone over to jose and Jose seems to be a lot more, even keel, and he says not moving one bit she's, not breathing she's com. lately face down in the yard. She is stiff. And then we have John saying she was drinking and it looks like guessing. Maybe she fell off the balcony. Jose will also mention that there appears to be a cut on her wrist and this number one call for me Aaron just right off the bat when I heard it, I didn't think they really stood out. I listened for what it was and I took it as well john. She didn't what to say so she handed the phone over to Jose and he took over, but the I do have a lot of reservations about touch the body or getting close to the body, and you think this is a free
or even a guest at your party that you ve found face down and the grass go over there and you would do something, but they Don'T- and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad. But that's my initial impression, not knowing anything about this case, turning to just that nine one call now thing really stood out to me as being totally suspicious. This pocket the sponsored by better help, but don't always realise that physical symptoms, like headache, teeth, grinding and even digestive issues, are all indicators of stress lesson forget about all of our doom scrolling sleeping too much, not sleeping at all under eating over eating a whole litany of ways of how stress can show up in a word that's telling you to do more sleep less and grind all day. Here is a reminder to take care of yourself into less and maybe starts in therapy. I know taken vacations to destroy
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did they not who absolutely they thought. This was a fall and accident now, that's not to say it wasn't an accident, but as we know, if you just going with an assumption, you can end up with a mass. Amid this is how the job in a ramsay K. Scott looked at it was a kidnapping. There are so many cases where you go into it, thinking one thing and not dealing as a homicide or as some sort of foul play, that changes the scope, of the investigation it changes the direction of it. It changes everything I say this aaron when you first suggested this case to me all I looked out was she mystery, in alcohol, she was found. a down and the grass- and I listen, that nine one one call I was thinking yeah, that could be an accident and she could have fallen and gone down. First and die. That's totally ploy, possible, not outside the scope well realm of reality. You brought up.
Jon Ramsay case- and I think at that and out it was assumed that she was kidnapped. I should say it's possible that she was kidnapped. She just never left the house right and so that assumption that she was removed from the house cause the police do not investigate real deep into the home. They just, setting up for that expected cos that would come in possibly a ransom initially the police will say, well who always at the party and John and jose, though, talk about if the gas and they're like? Can you get those other few guests back the four that left this morning? So we can talk to everyone and get a quick summary of what happened and the Do that but everyone gathered up at the house that same day, this is, Being treated as if there is any sort of foul play, so everyone's there talking in front of each other and the cap,
like who cannot sounds like an accident, so we're gonna, move on here and everything's. Fine in the initial investigation doesn't really start until two weeks after temple is- dead, face down in this yard, so what Sarah smith, who ends up, speak what police, two weeks after this and she actually express doubt that ten le fell saying I don't get it at all. I've been on the deck like a million times, I've looked and I've tried, and I just Don't understand and she's talking at this theory that Tampa leaned over the railing to vomit or something and she leaned over too far and food over the railing and face planted to the grass and also everyone saying that temple it didn't seem to be that drug brigitte, fuller, We noted that tablet didn't act, sick, that
because she was a season drinker. She said it would take an enormous amount of alcohol to knocker honour ass. I dont know how much of that, to kill about all that time were had polished off, but we were find out later what her blood alcohol content was when it was pretty high, yet so difficult to try predict how someone's going to handle their alcohol. I think because I got the sense that she didn't already with these ladys all the time. So you What someone in a new environment who knows they might drink more than they usually do and faster, and I get that because tumblr was there not planning on driving home. She can get his drunk as she wants, but when the toxicology report comes back, her blood The whole content was point to three eight. It said that she had some he ate see in her system, not a large amount. Also its that she had a small amount of xanax and her system.
I dont know how fast xanax metallic ices, I dont know but you need to take an over how many hours, but she definitely was drunk point two. Three eight is your three sheets to the wind and, if you add a little bit of marijuana on top of that hey, it could lead to you being very dizzy and getting sick. Jose this number one call also references security cameras on the back deck, so that just clear everything up, so the police are interviewing, some of the party goers and they're asking different question but I won't say there like- where were you at this time and Bob Bob their sort of investigating it as an accident, but whose, labour era. He works for long psmith writer, as we said He was a pre trial officer and he worked for the foresight the court system, but he was put on admitted. fraid of leave in december for accessing
financial files, and just three days after on the twentieth of december, on eighteen holes, breyer was fired, illegal accessed tablets incident report and the name record for John Myers skipper ahead a little way here, but that looks really bad. Your point, the file on this case that happened. Why are you try? to manipulate it. Are you trying to see if the law in force it's coming after you for something. This is a really bad look and now Where is my initial view of this case of everyone, seemed us the same thing I dont know how she could have fallen off this balcony or this rail, but he says there here. The cameras this should be cleared up real, quick. We should be able to see what happened here, but now he's pulling the file, he's literally doing an illegal act and he gets fired from his job for it. This is when this case starts looking way more suspicious
whereas before I could have totally bought that it was an accident, but is specious, now an incident report, it's going to deal hell what the police believed happened based on their witness statements and there Robert, if investigation, whether that's bank statements or phone calls, or were you name it, and I think by looking that up, he's probably trying to figure where the investigation is going. It's not like he's calling and talking to the investigators. So this is his way of getting a bead on whether headed with it, and that does seem to suggest that there are some. Concern there and I think, if you think about that you'll think oh, maybe he's worried they might be suspicious, Some of the people, the party and so by looking that up, it's a way to see if he,
you'd be worried or not, and since its illegal you can imagine where most people are headed in their heads. Now, with this case there thinking, there's gotta be more here right and then, when you hear or read, some of the tree scripts from the interviews from some of these party goers specially John and her aunt, they start giving different accounts of was awake at the time who was asleep, they start saying tat What was the only one smoking pot? We would never smoke PA. We would never do such a thing and then even inferring, I heard she did cocaine. Also, there wasn't any ok found in your system, even inferring weed no, if she was suicidal or not, but you know there was that caught on a risk. I know people try to be helpful, Sometimes they give more information than needed. But how dumb can you be theirs?
to be more things that happen more things that are said, but just right off the bat he go into the file and your deflecting all of these questions too. Tat! I was the only one literally drinking and doing drugs that night it gets really victim. Blame me, dear somebody's interviews or are they trying to steal things if the police, I'm trying to figure out what happened here and then you have all these these witnesses, throwing in things like how we don't know if she was suicidal. Those ideas now are inside the investigators heads and not all all investigators are going to do their due diligence and say: well, obviously, we didn't find cocaine. We didn't see any evidence that suggested she was suicide. They might just think whom probably did happen, we're not going to figure it out, but this was an accident or she caused around tat somehow and it's not fair. Tumblr or her family. This where my huh
attitude or opinion about this case will make a shift because remember I there are security cameras in this house there just waiting for jose or any one at the house to provide the footage of what happened. That's all it takes is hey, go, pull the footage and show us heard going out on the balcony by herself and fire off the rail or whatever happened this railing. balcony. It was for foot tall, which you would think would be sufficient to keep people from falling over into the yard absolutely but whose I will come back and say well the security cameras that would have caught happened that night. Well, didn't batteries in them, so they were recording anything. This seems to be just taken on face it doesn't seem like the cops we're like. Oh well. Let us come in and I dont know confiscate the hard. I've or any of them
recording equipment, so we can do a forensic analysis on it and possibly if you're telling the truth or if these files- and deleted. Now, just batteries worn in the cameras. Now air and I dont know what kind of security system this was, but most cameras that I installed for security system, they're, not battery powered they pull power off the cables Maybe these are wireless cameras and they do take batteries, but I don't think this was looked at at all or verified or vetted or anything so now We don't have footage which would have solved this entire case either though, jose on that nine one one call was saying: oh, we got security cameras here, everything's going to be figured out real, quick and now oh well, there wasn't any batteries anime where the batteries were dead. Just it's, We call convenient, I'm not suggesting that the
cameras for working and that the truth was recorded, but you always- have to check. You can never assume this issue something that has to happen to show that the investigation was serious, did tabula horse furred matter We should have a real investigation here, because obviously everyone at the party their stories are changing a bit and theirs. when dead this only upsets the public because then they feel like all. We are not really trying that hard. It seems, like you showed up and thought of this is an accident, will conduct interviews when you say public were really meaning: tantalus family, her husband, her children, because even if this was a so called accident, if you get a phone call that your wife died at this already falling off a less than twenty four railing. You get a question that has not just be like, oh, that that makes sense. So too,
and now you're gonna say what how did this happen? looking at this- and I am thinking here Did she follow over that rail and then you have her injuries, which she had. A dislocated rest, a broken neck, had trauma internal entries, though alone, could be consistent but the fall but the medical, examiner, they're, gonna back and say her death was an accident from bluff forestry, or to the head with multiple and to the head. I'm thinking wait, wait, wait, say that again multiple wounds to the head. fell, wants sidney. This is another question also family wants to see her body. They want to see photographs of her body matter, of amateur doesn't take any photographs during this. Examination just rights at all down. Ok, I guess
that's how they do in georgia quiet. So they said there was a cut justin. Is that really a cut or was her wrist fracture That's where I think her wrists was fractured and the bone possibly protruded out. So wasn't a cut. This whole idea this inference, if you will of She might have cut her rest or was suicidal. Now that didn't happen, she was. And suicidal at all, no one from a balcony to take their own laws and this cut on her wrist, probably from that fracture and that's a second story right with a balcony- is and I just doesn't ring true- is where, if you want to take your life, that's where you jump from no, not at all and we're back to falling from that high sure you smash your head on the ground and caused? serious damage, but the way
described the body, look like she was face, planted into the ground. Her nose wasn't broken again. I didn't see her fall, but the way her body was laying it looked a little odd because she fell? I'm assuming that her wrist was fractured because she tried to break her fall does she broke her fall with enough forced break her arm war. Had it head hit so hard wicked annulled that all day, I could accept that someone could die from this fall, but its everything else that's being set at this party now and all the homeowner in people's actions that bringing questions in this case, it's almost like the Amanda knox thing like she's making herself look real bad. If she didn't do this, but that's where we can three. The situation just then write some people
don't handle themselves very well when they have to explain things and when their asked questions about tat it just comes off office. Deflection, it comes off is where good people we don't drink and party, I think it's. says. I take care of kids. I watch kids. I met PAMELA last week at this kid's party cause I'm a good mom and I take care of everyone. It doesn't really answer any of the questions that the investigators are asking and she's kind of contradicting herself from even the nine. When one call and and two gaiters, or at least the police officers that are questioning her, aren't picking up on These inconsistencies they be innocent inconsistencies, but it doesn't appear there followed up on the coroner listed, tat was death as an accident and determine
that she had suffered from multiple blunt force. Injuries caused by her fall that she had suffered from acute ethanol intoxication any thoughts on that. Thus, the thing is multiple blunt force, wounds or injuries. I wouldn't expect multiple. I would expect one or two possibly it's hard to wrap your head around that and it's absolutely hard for tablets, family husband, ever friends too. wrap their heads around that because it doesn't make a lot of sense again. I think you can die from afar. Like this totally plausible, but if it wasn't for everyone else's actions and who, if it wasn't for this initial autopsy kind of not really being documented too well and investigators, not asking follow up questions or calling these party goers Further inconsistency is again
be able to buy this whole story, but at this point on the link, there should be a lot more investigation here, and all of this will culminate to the family, hiring their own lawyer to go through all of investigation and try to figure out What actually happened in wrath, fernand as their lawyer concluded homicide his strong possibility, he indicates that tabula had what appears to be defensive wounds. He cites the conflict. witness statements he talks about how the police did not preserve the crime scene. While they didn't traded as a crime scene, so there was nothing preserved. He talks about the crimes in tampering and evidence mishandling and a lack of autopsy photos highly unusual, which I agree, I think really the face of it. The reason why Tom family. The reason
so many in the public got upset about this is because of the optics on it she was the only black person at this party and I only that. But when you compare what happened to her with the waste, he was found. There are met. who say, there's no way that she was injured that way by going over Our railway? That's something where, if you walk up to a four foot railing and you look over it, you think how did tamara go over this railing. One of the themes, it was. Maybe she was going to be sick and she lay and over the railing and then fellow were because she was intoxicated, but me maginnis this on. My head: earn I'm leaning over the railing to throw up and then the top half of my bodies way, Pour me over the railing. I'm actually get a flip and fall on my back not face first or
Gonna fall straight down on your head. This looks like tabula act, He stood up on the railing and did a swan dive off of it. Faced planting facebook sit down her bodies lang there. So this leaning over the railing and falling bit, doesn't really jail with me- I don't know exactly how many inches from the balcony she was found, but if you could see, her body from the house. It seems like she was at least a few feet, so she be seen because again, this is a railing. That's pretty high up. So I don't know it's weird I dont know how they saw her. Maybe they're downstairs when they witnessed her body, but again their statement. sir, so incoherent that it's hard The tell what happened here. So you said it thou, but you mean like from
below the balcony and out right, yeah, and so one thing when you read about, This case on ws be tv. They spoke with her husband. He said it is physically possible for a body tat land like that from falling off the deck, because with all the more said she had on her. You don't get that from falling into the grass you dont get. Linear, scratches on your arm from falling into the grass. You don't it gashes in your shins from falling into the grass you'd. Get contusions on your head. So for him this totality of injuries just don't seem make sense if she had fallen from that balcony and smack into the ground. Just right, you would think just one blow to her face her forehead, that's about it or bruising yeah right. This looks different than just a fall. Ash is scratches whom I can see why they are not happy and ass the year,
that all the time. This does not add up and again, if the video cameras where recording or were functioning. We would have the answer here, and maybe they were functioning but will never know because they weren't analyze. Was just out there weren't any battery, so we're done fake. They turn their word for it yeah then we have a whole other. Back there in this case that in this town in this county, there was a lot of racial history and I isn't going to just jump in infer, ok. Well, the town is a really racists history So, therefore crime that happens is related to this, but an of trade. Keep this abbreviated I live in Kansas city errand and I both live here actually in our town, has some serious racial history. Our town
is completely divided by raise it was called red line. and the dividing line is true avenue, and it was about before the seventys. We were the fourth most I city in america and the effects of this racial divide can still be seen and felt to this day. At the time developers were buying black families, their homes and what we call the plaza area because- a man named Jesse nicholls wanted to build this huge shopping center and he literally was able to leverage hiv by laws and covenant guidelines to prevent black families from living anywhere west of trieste avenue, so he separate the entire city just to have white fangs. He's living around this high in shopping district. the east side of kansas city is completely neglected and has been neglected for decades,
meanwhile everywhere else gets all the budgets for the city. This happens and it's all documented historical record in the area where this happened heron, apparently this town, this county, they literally kicked off the black families out at one point, thirty laws through segregation, and it took huge amounts of march and protests for these laws and stuff to be reversed, but look at the demographics at that county. It's like ninety nine percent white, and here we have tabula and her family. One of the few black. families in the area are not saying that this was a planned murder because of this racial history, but you can damn well understand how that can play a part and how people view this case. I think that's totally fair. In this case it was twenty fourteen debbie,
corner Chris Shelton was to resign after he distributed photos of him posing. Mammy dolls. That's not good luck and he appeared with sheriff ron freeman in camp invite us. So here we have some very questionable and downright races, things that d corner and some other members of the police force doing together, so are we taking it seriously? Are they looking at this case and taking it seriously enough. Let's talk about What mammy dolls are. These are racial caricatures. And for these two gentlemen to be taking pictures, we mammy dolls, while smiling while grinning, I think he can read into that, whatever you want and think
people are going to find that this seems very racist right. This is humorous to them. Shelton also worked for place called operation, twenty one which sound actually kind of a good thing aims to educate offenders on the law to reduce recidivism rates, but the owners of operation? Twenty one are brian and anna, who also are and with Sarah and tom, these rob people that were in attendance at this party they'll know each. they're, they're all acquaintances and that's good? to lead to people questioning How well this case was investigated. Jose has ties to law enforcement. This corner knows people that were at the time, ready. Yet I'm not trying to say every one of this party plan to murder somebody not saying man but tablet dies and it appears not to be taken seriously
You can look at all these people under a microscope and it's not gonna, look great, officially Of course, they say that Shelton didn't work on tablets case. There needs to be said because he wasn't there. On that came up. Put this autopsy report, but people are going to infer people are going to connect, the dots police also didn't take anything, Your parents at the crime scene, data do a sexual assault. Kid they didn't collect her you're no clippings and they didn't asked or test the bottle of tequila, that ten lad. So I mean gin ws be tv to draw out of atlanta and again had spoken with cameras, husband and he said I'm not saying it wasn't an accident, but I m saying it was a cover up, I'm saying and they made it, look like something else. So what I like about this? Is he saying this is very suspicious and I don't feel
that she was there, because that's how she died suggesting. I think that his wife some other way. There was a dick situation going on and it either way it's a cover up that the scene was manipulated and what do we When we look at the scene just then the evidence is there any suggestion that the scene was manipulated alone. bed actually doing that. Nine. When one call you hear jose talk about her one arm with the caught on it and there photos taken with her arm and it was next were body with her left arm extended and bent the elbow then you have berra and John boasting in her arms or down at her sides and then you have already admitting to moving her arm to check for a pulse but Where were her arms? This is kind of a deal if you do damned if you down on the car they're saying they didn't really hush her or he might.
her leg. But then statements later there saying oh yeah, I checked for a pulse and I did this and I did that and she stiff Has it one arm sticking out or work of her arms out to her sides, it's a discrepancy and Obviously the husband his honing in on this and saying, which is it this he's just from looking at the scene. Looking at her condition, it said that the position of her body did not appear as if she had fallen from the balcony to the ground. They said it look more like she had fallen from ground level, does the greater the yard added up one foot to the height of the fall, so she fell and slid down some right and her head wasn't and to one side or the other. It was face down her leg. were extended behind her and both of her feet were pointed to right right, arm was eyed her side and are left arm was extended and bent at the elbow.
You said Pereira moved her are because she checked for a pulse or something right, but that's it. Beauty by him. This is all in a report by Kalen the investigator Andy Kalen. He said that rare told them that he had checked for a pulse with her left arm. ok. So, according to the report he did, but according to burn he said? That's bs, I never ever told Kalen thy moved her arm and he said, there's no way. I checked for a pulse, so that's in dispute and again that just shows the inconsistencies. to get a word from our sponsor cove co, believes. Everyone deserves to feel secure. purity shouldn't just before the rich and famous? That's why they make home security systems,
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before we move on. Just in you said You could imagine that if she fell from the balcony that it could kill her. After all broken neck right, and she had blunt for centuries. But let's take for a minute the theory that maybe she was down below the balcony and fell yeah there's this idea or alternate theory that there's like a lip leading, a pathway to the grass, and you could trip over this and fall. Ass, the boy- I guess I don't know makes more sense right. If you look at the time, of entry. She had pieper suggesting she must have scraped the ground or something I mean. If you fall flat on the ground, you not see these types of entries. But if you fall and there's a gradation, then maybe that explains it for
one that doesn't think that you can die from a fall of a very low high. This just happens to be a random thing, but one of my uncle's was on his front porch I think he was trying to change the libel upon his porch and either fell off a ladder, fell off a stool or something his feet were. Probably six feet off the ground, so his head was probably six feet tall used about twelve feet off the ground. He fell and broke his neck. He live. but he broke his neck and then I have another at issues, an aunt she fell now. She's older, both of them are older, they're, not forty there in their fifties and Sixtys she fell on. And even ground broke neck in the same way that my uncle dead again their older, your bones get bridge over time. Oh she's, forty years old balcony, were a lip on the grass. It's hard to accept that you could get
Many injuries from such a shortfall right right this is why it's really difficult to just accept it was an accident. But how far can you take it because The investigation is lacking, as it is here's to be in this case. It's really hard to come up with the story of what actually happened, but this is where have to look at law enforcement say how invested worthy when I was two were read the interviews that they did their the question they get an answer and then the interviewer just says yeah yeah yeah, it's not an interrogation- it's not it doesn't it. Here that they were trying to catch somebody and Alai, doesn't appear that they were trying to that a story here lead investigator and foresight. County was my christian, and he resigned in october, of twenty twenty, because internal affairs
is investigating allegations that christian was sending women information about this case and comments about this case He was having extramarital affairs. His real comment on this. As it came out was he shouldn't have resigned. He should adjust waiting for the fire him or taken a punishment whatever they deem necessary, and I think it's because he feels like this case has ruined his reputation. Many people said that he had a great reputation right, but because of the stuff that has been alleged about him by these act. Girlfriends It suggests that maybe be horse furred. Her death wasn't investigated properly What do we know about these allegations? What we do No just is that. Might christian apparently had further to tampa horse furred as porch lady. This is
an allegation by one of his ex girlfriends not said that he constantly talked about this case he also made allegations himself. That seem not to be true this second hand, but one of his axis was telling the gb I who got involved later in this case that christian told her. He found calls existed between. Jose barrera Andy Kalen prior to the deny what one call and he was during if Kalen had helped the people at the house. im of the story, but there's no evidence right at least the gb. I didn't find such evidence. So what's going on, here there were also snapchat messages that Christian sent to these women. These were discovered, the gb I and these before bad, These are glaringly bad, yes and I ve been a red one. Ok
Actually, I might be more than one let's just go on just see how far I get that this is going to be upsetting, and one of them says hello, sir. I know we ve never met, but I'm here to tat you that your wife and the mother. Of your six children is dead. Oh, yes, happy to report that she was really really drunk. Trip landed, face down in the back yard, and I know you have fun. Memories enjoy corralling these six boys, who are now going ape shit. This is free november? Fourth, ok, There was another message from the nineteenth where he typed greetings from race, cracker, bastard murder covering up land how're, you it's a nice, any day, good for taking shallow graves by the roadside, and this is where I understand that law enforcement take become a little jaded. They can have some gallows humour, but your law enforcement You looked at under a microscope and you have to have profession.
listen some tact, the core what have you- and this just adds or fuel to the families fire that this is not being taken seriously. I would lie, to say if you were in this situation, let's say the situation was flipped right but say there were eight to ten black people in this house and one white person and that person died and then the lead detective was blue back and was sending out race. comments to people here: is seeing on the side with that not be concern as well. Honestly. I think that if one white person died and everyone else at the party was black. I think you instigation, would have gone a little bit different. But that's just me, I dunno, and this is I meant we're talking at the beginning about where heads were at when we started looking into this. I didn't know what to think. I know the optics looked ban,
but I wanted to look at a fairly because I dont know what happened. But, as you read, do the evidence, it starts to look really strange and it starts to look suspicious and again even her own family isn't saying this is definitely a murder as far as we can see there, saying that it seems there may have been a cover up. But why exact and because of the lack of investigation, we might not be able to figure this out, but a few. Were to ask me pick one justin homicide or an accident based on her injuries and everything I might lean more accident. But if you say just homicide or accident, and then you give me all the transcripts and all the investigation, documentation and everything about how this case was treated in how everyone behaved afterwards. Now. I lean more homicide. I have lately more in that direction. I think there are some question
that may be dont have answers, but would definitely help here if she truly fell off the balcony. We agree that it is possible. She could have died that way right now, but if she died by trip in falling down below or being or what have you that can change things. I look at this I think about what her husband had said and again he doesn't mountain say she was murdered. He said cover up and it may been an accident. That's what he seems to suggest so I really side with him. I think it's very possible that she died in an accident or was possibly murdered. I'm open minded- and I dont personally look at this case and think everyone's responsible, if she were murdered, then possibly some when there are no something right, but that does ass. I mean everybody's involved, but I think that's what it slide from the outside, so I would just say, don't know that we can accuse these people of murder. I think really responsibility, lands
law enforcement, meaning we can create size them and say this should have been handled differently. I'm not even sure they would argue with that. Twenty twenty as hindsight right, it's easy for them to look ago can probably shouldn't have gone with. The theory of accident right off the bat. But that's where this case is in its very upsetting, because this feels like a case that could have been solved. Price really. Instead, this is blown up in twenty twond you had all kinds of celebrities sharing this change dot, org petition at the time it broke over six hundred thousand signatures when you have people like gap, A union and came card asked in signing this and sharing it always people looking at the optics of this and all the racial stuff that had come out. This is become its own animal and, like you said, it's like They went to check out the scene. They pretty much seem to take their here that this was an accident and they ran with it. And I you can't really go back. We ve got,
plenty of emails and messages about this case. Just then and trust me pretty much All of them say this is sauce. This is suspicious and they trust. Anything now that the police have set about this case, I absolutely went into it thinking that this is just an hour said aunt and everyone's overreacting bad wouldn't be covering the case, if that was the case, but this thing, and the upsetting thing about this case also is the fact that maybe we didn't get a proper instigation not because they weren't capable of doing a proper investigation, but because, camelot just didn't matter enough she warrant a proper investigation, everyone I gotta say everyone else. able to speak. She couldn't she was dead. So a theme like the ones who could talk, they're, the ones that basically set this up,
it was an ax, it must have been an accident, they don't know anything and that could well be true. But again we can't just take people out there word that's why you do the investigation you mentioned. They didn't check for prints. They didn't check into the security cameras if you're, just guy take people's word for it. Then you can end up with this kind of mass and we don't know if it's, because they couldn't give the proper answers or if they were hiding something we don't know, that's where it was up to the investigators to figure this out this case mine's me a little bit of the christian, andrea archeo case. It could have been, as everyone says, but I personally believe the the scene was manipulated and is because the scenes manipulated doesn't mean it was homicide but There is a question there. What is it that were dry people to manipulate the scene if they did if they weren't responsible for the death. In the first place exact,
Don't I just don't know what's going to people's minds at the time bright, to the people at the party They didn't notice anything because the either if they were asleep or when they got up, they were leaving, and they just had no reason to check the backyard. And if you oh by the security door, then the back door was opened and closed, but there were several: I there between one forty seven just minutes later, then may what that tell you it doesn't. Tell you much because you can open a door and multiple book and go in or out at that point, for you can open the door Forget what you're going out, therefore, and closed the door. No one went in, and out happens to me all the time, but in this case We don't have enough information to solve for acts, and I we could of, and I feel like, everyone's behaviour the only reason why I think this is so suspect and then the more you analyze her injuries and where
her body was found in the position of his found, the less sense it makes where I was willing to accept it in the beginning, when I first saw this case, but it wasn't it twelve when d safe county sheriff's office, announced that they were asking the gb. I the georgia, of investigation to Look into this case independently and did just six days later. Do you think you can attributed this tv public pressure, trust and absolutely not? So you would think if their under pressure that you might different result right because they're not behold in necessarily to investigate the original investigators on this case in their findings. They concluding that tunnel is death. Was an accident caused by falling from the balcony, which is Kirsty see- and this is after They release the formation about christian. I haven't said it just said, but he said
yeah? I did send those messages, but he's they were sarcastic and in poor taste how about you, but when I read those messages that he sent, I wouldn't have described in that way, can we haven't? You have taken them testing at the sarcasm, but that they were extremely unprofessional and disrespectful and had a complete disregard for human life. I can't help but think that they were racists when he broaden the children and what they were going to do there, that's what I mean. I would say this poor taste isn't good enough. it isn't surprising, because people who were like that, which, of course these messages are, he admits, the same them there. His I can give me commentary on that and my commentary, They came across his racist and I should like to hear what other people thought. How would you herbert those messages that he sent, especially with all of the aspects of this case. Here we are
You have to die, arising, crosser ts and do a professional job. In this case I got so much attention that everyone b. I came in and got everyone's farm logs everyone's text messages, and if you do accept that this was still an accident. This is why a families upset. This is why the public doesn't believe it was Truly an accident because of everyone's behaviour, So there are some left over questions here. Just in we talk, while the scene may have been manipulated and you have sabre era, john myers both stay at that time was arms were at her side, but then later you have an arm where it's out and bent at the elbow and barrera denying that ever moved it, despite what the investigator had said she heard from him. And then you also have the Xanax question. here, the sound was up. There is a part he attendee
who had as annex prescription one and she said, I didn't share my xanax at anyone one time, we they're going to come out and say well tamara. Wasn't that big of a party or drinker, so woman, though the gb eye when they were investigating, they got her text messages and on the morning of november forth, a friend texted her I hate to ask but I please get more meds. It really helped me right and this Woman replied yes and they were to meet though, if she's willing to give her friend Xanax, maybe gave Xanax to it just means it's very possible temples. Family says that she wasn't a big party here or drinker does it mean that she's not and it doesnt mean that if she has a night out. she doesn't have to drive. She doesn't a lot, but her family says she doesn't take Xanax. She doesn't have a prescription for its annex xi, have then annex on her person, so what
Did this come from not question too the amount in our system was very low. Apparently they said there was. Ass xanax in her system than the lowest measurement of twenty five micrograms per leader, but mixing Xanax and alcohol can be dangerous right, although absolutely not speaking from experience but dont. Do it people, I think after Having looked into this just then, we know something We know that the best the geisha in wasn't deep enough, wasn't thorough enough and is not like they needed to do many more things. But there are some basic thing: you would assume they would have done and they didn't do them ever. Outside looking in it looks like some of these people kind of connections to each other. There, be a reason for them to close ranks right. But that's We have is speculation. We really Don't know what happened there that night, all we know is tat below
was partying with her friends other moms and she I ended up dying, early this morning and we don't know anything beyond that. We just see a lot of either disregard for temblor or a poor investigation which we knew more so all end with this Ralph Fernandez families lawyer responded to this gb. I investigation. He said this is an ever expanding event. I dealing with a really unusual situation that has been complicated further by official. inner meddling, by an absence of cooperation from law enforcement. And by distraction within what I consider to be the primary instigation. I dont think it only fair to the project or the tampa, just to say here's what law enforcement should have done. I think what we need to do is also investigate. From our perspective.
How and why this became so difficult and so challenging. And so adversary, and so what? Think about his comments. There justin, dickie, summarised as a perfectly that's, why to read it verbatim. His quote because its summarizes it perfectly and this didn't have to be so complicated. This did not have to be so challenging. This could have been. ready, open and shut if laws for and the investigators had done their jobs and had actually questioned the party goers. initially with intent when I looked these comments I think way he's saying, is that we shouldn't be just talk: about how law enforcement should have conducted. This investigation, we should be asking. Why this investigation is so different. why things too, out the way they did and I
We can read into that. I think that goes back to maybe the answer is because it was tamar course we'd love to hear what you guys think and if there is any other information out there that you ve come across that sticks out to you about this case. Please let us know Never miss an episode of generation. Why subscribe to us on apple podcast, spotify, cast box or reverie listening right now. Also He sure to follow us on social media. Our tik tok is at gen. Pod are instagram, is at generation. Why podcast join wondering, plus in the wondering app to listen ad free
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Transcript generated on 2022-08-27.