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I'm scenes. We ve seen them all right, washed up on the shore sticking out a shallow graves buried under the house and stuck in the bottom of a lake, but sometime there's a little more off the beaten path that makes you sit upon your ouch and shouted your tv wait. They found the body where, but that's what you're looking for we got. You ready to stream some crime stories. Hulu, it's a crime not to watch

new ideas about it, I'm doing very well just them. Thank you for asking. How would you like that we just staring casey so many people and we had a great time our presentation, was alive, fun and for or patriarch subscribers, well you're, probably to be hearing it soon, it will be it'll, be cool.

I hope that we got a chance to talk to everybody that showed up. There are so many people. Sometimes I think we we should do like one our slots with ten vans p. So I can. Actually you don't talk to revising, but that would take for so it was great to see everybody in, and I hope that our enemy, That showed up got a chance to talk to us. I would like to see, a special thank you to a couple of people, Shelly philip off for speaking with, us, and I would also like to thank jordan bonaparte of the night time podcast for his assistance. So if that doesn't key after what we're talking about tonight, it is the disappearance of emma phillip off november twenty eightth twenty twelve This is in victoria british columbia. I guess they can. vancouver, island and Victoria is a small, or city on the south end. Twenty

six year old. Emma is out barefoot on a cold winter night. and she's not be. Even in a way that some of her acquaintances think as normal? They will the police to do a welfare check on her the play will show up and speak with her for about forty five minutes and then let her go. And after that point nobody sees her again and of hers name Dennis way. Seize her on the road standing on the side of the street she's trying to cross the crosswalk but she's not going, and, after speaking with her for about an hour He realizes that she's not behaving in a normal manner. Emma fill a path in Perth ontario with her family, her parents,

Shelley and james, philip off her parents have four kids emmenthaler path out of the four was known to be fiercely independent artistic and he tended to write a lot and interests included photography traveling. She had a lot of friendships about for years prior to her disappearance, her parents separated and of the children. The separation seem to affect her. The most. not to say that the other children weren't affected by any time. parents split up it's difficult on the kids and it always affects children differently. I win my parents got a divorce, it didn't phase me at all, but it absolutely phased. My older siblings meanwhile I have lots of friends that have gone through divorce in every single child is at like errand, said, affected completely differently

it's the end of the world to see mom and dad split up yeah hurry your brother at the time was fourteen emma was when he too, might say: well, she's, an adult. it doesn't really matter. This was tramell for her and operation was a painful one, her parents, when to divorce and dash the thing. It seemed at that point that emma was still further they close with her father but her father was known as someone who didn't ask her a lot of questions. He didn't pry personality wise. She was very much like her father. They were both very artistic and they both were very private people. I think, absolutely no shelly was doing her best to raise her children in a structured environment, and while that seem to work for most of our kids. It's to have a different effect on Emma Emma.

moved out of the house at aged. Sixteen because like all the rules, she didn't like all of that structure and Shelly, would recognise this and try make some adjustments, because in the end He just really wants to be, therefore children and she wants them to be there for her If any relationship there's some given take this, is something that will I'm more as we go through the events that happened with Emma philip off after she, too. eighteen. She decides to leave perth shoe wind up getting journalism, degree aid, agreeing culinary arts and even teach wish in china, so she's very entail jack she's very driven. she will end up moving to Victoria, which, is on the other side of canada has so Perth is

but new york and victoria. Here- is above, say seattle. So this is cross country move now counting all the other places she would go, it seems that she was a very free spirit. She liked to travel. and it's possible that she wanted to. Yet some distance between her and her family. I dont want make that assumption, but it's about us as you can get what's certainly enough away that she's not having to follow anyone's rules, at least not any family rules. That's what and when you move out of the houses, you create your own structure, you decide what you're going to do and I think that something that she really wanted. What we know is that when she went to move out there, she didn't have anything set up. She literally moved out there and then plan to go and find work. She got a job cafe as a barrister,

didn't last very long. She went on to bounce around, but eventually she'll get a job at a a fish store, but it More of a seasonal position, Shelly worked at red, blue fish? It was a seafood restaurant. This seemed a job that who's going to stay out for a while, but something about Victoria is technically it's on an island, its smaller city call it a small town, because there's eighty plus thou and people that live in the city proper, but its slower paste a lot of people walk there. They don't have cars, doesn't have a cell phone, but she'll. Never really own a cell phone to her life. This restaurant is open during certain times of the year, so I guess there's parts when their closed I don't really know if it's a seas a thing or what the deal is, but she's working

for a while and then she's going to leave and tell their reopened yet seems to close, the winter, but really what what No one should know about Victoria. Is it fit with Emma philip? of personality, this is a is where she feels like she fits in well, I think she's, still communicating with her family, correct, typically via email. It's pretty ouch exclusively email, because she doesn't own a cell phone and when she comes locates the emails just an easy way to send a message after somebody, for instance, She was in contact with her mother, She would only sand about one email a month. In some of those emails were poetic. Her otherwise, I would even say some of the more cryptic it never just a standard hey. you doing this is what I've been up to lately. It was always a poetic.

explanation or description of her life well He did write a lot and The trouble here is that more. For instance, when I was speaking with her mother shelly, I stir about her daughter about How well she knew her and shall said at that time. She wasn't sure she knew her that well and that's because the information she was getting from her daughter was so poetic or cryptic. so she had a lot of questions, but it's not as though she could sit down with emma and ask request and get the answer she needed to undermine and exactly who her daughter was now sleep. She up in the house with her and felt like she knew her pretty well for a while, but we all grow and we all change and There's just this period of time Where am I seem to be trying to

push everyone away, a little bit to gain some space and some would say, maybe to find herself, or maybe she just needed that space to feel better. We're not sure but I like the fact that mother was very open about what chief I felt she knew and was also very open about what she admitted that she didn't know so emma, I think, for a lot of people. As a bit of a mystery beyond that when she was having a good time with her friends or family. She really immersed herself in it. She was known for her laugh and she was known for being able to just let go in those instances and really just have a good time. I would say that this It's just me with all the reading. I done emma seems to be a very out in person a very kind in person the a little naive and

simultaneously, she doesn't like clinging people. and I think, I'm very similar to her and that aspect where, if you're friend, you're my friend, but if you overstep? If I dont know you very well, and you insert yourself into my life- and I don't really want to give you that kind of time. I will act hopefully distance myself from people emma cheese. She push people away cause she likes being on her own. She likes being the boss of herself. Not all is well, I think, in Victoria when I was reading on the website. They they mention a lot of her descriptions and and things like that. But one thing they say that I sort of She waited on was where she living on the streets and technically she wasn't living on the streets, but she didn't have a permanent address or home either yeah. If you think about it,

Emma had the means to take care of herself. She had a bank account it had, thousands of dollars in it. She had had a vehicle to drive and she had some possessions the question is: is why didn't she have a permanent address that may come back on two. She just didn't want settled down anywhere right. There is a commitment thing I think, but the restaurant clauses for the season and so she's without work, but she does have money so you think, while still just live on that money until she can go back to work on february, first of two thousand thirteen. That's when the restaurant LOL back up starts living at a hotel, hotel, seven, sixty she's cleaning and staying on boats, even

the website even says that sometimes she sleeps outside under the trees. Again, she doesn't have to she just chooses it's on the night of november twenty third, two thousand twelve, when he fell a we'll get a call from her daughter. Daughter, is in tears, she's, crying and she's telling your mother that she's dying. She can't it anymore, and she was. To come home. Well too, she wants our home come on I'll, take care of you, probably some relief on the other end and she's we too have some help. So shelly as I won't get you in e ticket all to do is get yourself to the airport, and then you come home and we'll get this all taken care of, shelly is careful not to ask any questions, because her daughter already seems like she's stress and she doesn't want to cause

any more problems. She just wants her to know that she has the support. She needs, that's it, and so she says I can remain on the call with you or He d go that's fine, but either way you have a plane ticket you're coming home, literally hours later that she gets another call from her daughter emma and now Emma still sat is saying I'm going to work this out. I'm not coming home. Ok oh sure, cancel that eating ticket. She even too to family members and ask them. What do you think? I should because I feel like I should go out there, but everyone, her kids, her, ex husband. Everyone assures her look emma needs to do this, however. She wants to do it. You have to respect our wishes. If she's decided, she is coming home. Then you need to let it be. This a grown woman but they're going off of the emma they knew their going.

Off of the, they grew up with and they Don't know this verity of the situation. I think they're give good advice. I think they know that Emma will push away of somebody's trying to cling on. I think they're doing their best all their hearing is what shall he's telling them so I'm sure she's told them that Emma was in tears. She was very upset right, so guess: they're going off, what they know We can say here somewhere things change might not know that she's living more or less a transient life, I dont want to say, homeless, khazars the weird stigma that goes with that, but she litter it does not have a permanent address. That's too, a little bit more of a downward spiral, I know people that live this, this lifestyle. I know people that travel and they don't

a permanent address, I'm not trying to dog on that, but emma who has degrees? Who has all these things going for it just seems a little out of place for her to not have an apartment or a place that she calls. While there are a series of calls that follow over the next so many days, where am I call she's upset and then she not only says I need to come home, but you need to come. Get me mom and shelly will actually book plane, tickets and then Emily callback call the whole thing off. So this is really weighing on Shelly fella path at some point? She asked to make a decision because, while He wants to respect. Emma's wishes her muff. early instinct is this is in about her wishes, there's something really wrong. and the only way she can be of help is too, whilst there and get her daughter and its socks because

incites twenty twenty. She probably should it has gone out, the first phone call, if, if she really I'll bet. There's was that is of a situation but Emma's enter twenties still her daughter, she still her child. But what do you do there? You wanna respect people's barriers, but now she's, who, standing that this is probably more severe to me thinking just go out there. You I'm just I'm yelling at the speakers on when I'm listening to her talk like just go and if nothing long gray just have this weekend in Victoria, you know, even if you bring your daughter home, just just go and just see what's happening here, but again hindsight twenty twenty while her instinct was to go out there immediately. But, as I said, the rest, the family was saying, respect emma's wishes, but there's something at play here, which is

Emma wasn't really in communication with her she would send a monthly email or something this isn't actual phone call, and I think that shelly. This is this is so important to get right. She doesn't want to scare em away, she wants amateur now that she, her mother and she we'll be therefore her any time she needs are so she's playing this very carefully on fourchan time, is wasting here, and she doesn't know that until you know yea, so many phone calls she does I think she goes to go out there right, that's which She do because her daughter obviously having some sort of crisis, because, whilst call multiple times I mean to say, come get me no way when of work, it out, don't come in on that ass call she's telling her mother don't come Shall we can accept that because there have been too many calls she can tell

from the sound of her daughters, voice that there's something really wrong and ass, her mother, she wants to go out there, so she can fix this, so she can take care of her any good mother. We do in one of those phone calls on the call idea shows up as sandy merriman, only just assumes that this is a friend this is somebody that she's staying with so she's going out to hopefully find her daughter and bring we're home, but sandy Merriman turns out to be something. Quite different the name of a woman, shelter that has been staying at often on and the women shelter had a thirty two policy you could stay there for thirty days, get back on your feet and then at the leave and you'd, to be gone. I guess, for thirty days before you could come back and stay again

she's using this as a temporary place to stay, and she's using the phone in the office. To call her mother instead of pay phones, so because shelly has this number on her phone. She knows that this is the show- sir, that emma was at an she'd called, before she laughed to verify, I, who was and add six p m that night immobile returned to the shelter and they inform her that mother is on her way. She's been calling looking for you. One of the things that you found out when she went there was that, They had to have someone from the shelter in the same room. Is the person making the call, and I think we can agree that? That's just so they get a better idea. What's going on with that person being

shelter, there's a lot of responsibilities. Possibly the shelter would know more about what was going on with Emma. Why is she so upset and wench they get there. She finds out. That m is not there, so she blown all the way across canada find that her daughter is no longer around exactly and because they have a confidentiality agreement with anyone. That's it the shelter, and this is for good reason, because if they ve been a b used or if there is a demand, dick situation that they're getting away from whatever the case may be- they can't information out about the women that are staying there and its for their protection, so they're not your forthcoming with and mother, but they pray much have confirmed that is staying there, but she's not there. Now, if she's not in the shelter by a certain time, then someone else can take that room. So this is

late at night when her mother rolls into town it's the middle of the night, so he said that emma was missing but she's only missing, because she was expected to be shelter but she's, not it turns out Emma gets in a cab. What happens in the justin? She says that she wants to go to the airport, which is odd, because is her mom, says she's on her way she the cab driver. How much will it cost and he says around sixty dollars- and I don't know what the money. Conversion is up there. What money you guys use, but she has a couple grand at least in her bank account and she has a two hundred dollar bank card. She says I can't afford that and instead can you drive me around the block so that cabbie? I around the block she doesn't want to leave the vehicle

this guy seem semi, nice and accommodating. He says: well, and stay here until I get another call to go, take somebody somewhere. I guess, stays with them for a few minutes and tell inevitably the radio goes off and they start I am to another location, but when the radio goes off this apparent. scares her. She doesn't I it's just an abnormal response. Again, it's the noise. Of the radio king around or maybe it's impending doom that she's gonna have to get out of this cab. Take a moment. Word a word from our new sponsor: do you do you? Have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer is but never They go anywhere well summers. Finally, here it's time get out of the office or your house and get a change of scenery with price line you can save up to sixty percent on your favor hotels plus, find amazing deals on car rentals, an flights and, when

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friendly customer support. Try the number one customer rated home security system order today and get fifty percent off your customized system get started. Cove, smart dot, com or right back to the show. Emma had talked with acquaint This acquaintance. Name was Dennis way, someone. She had spent some number of hours with a library research information about japan, and so they had met before now when he meets her again, The conversation is odd and according to his quae, she didn't kill recognize him not in the way that he would have expected, he be I'm concerned after a while He decided to call the police so that they could check on emma is worried about her. So he spoke with for about an hour while she didn't cross the road and realise that she was not in full

use of all her mental facilities and even says that she didn't recognize him at first past. boy didn't recognize him at any point during the conversation, but was just being kind. So he calls the police and they're coming out to do welfare check on her She standing in front of the hotel empress barefoot club her shoes and freezing outside, because its canada and its november, I believe they got down about forty degrees, Fahrenheit, that night the police show up They start talking to her, initial reports. Are that she's not an bring their questions verbally but naughty. And shaking her head Then the more you read into it. You realize that they're asking her all kinds of questions there. Asking her. She has a place to stay she's She's telling them where she's staying she's been

a little bit more informative than what some websites and stuff have portrayed, but they talk to her for a good forty five minutes and decide she's good just one a pause here for a second, the police. Could it showed up and said move along your loitering and laughed they could have showed up and said. Are you a harm to yourself? No, Do you plan on harming anyone know see later they took forty five minutes to try to figure this out now. I think that her appearance, what she's doing her being barefoot? watching her shoes is very odd behavior. I think it's off. is that there is something wrong, but they deal with these kind of calls all the time now, I'm not in the family shoes to me. If, if one

I loved ones, went missing and I heard a police officers talking to them just near hours before they they went missing out why didn't you take them? Why didn't you detain them arrest them? Why didn't you do more? I absolutely get that but tat nicholas, didn't even have to respond to the call- and that's just reality of it also most people mentally ill. They go to these calls. all day, long all the time. I would hope that day Had the training and the know how sperience and use the proper judgment here. But at the end of the day, she wasn't doing anything wrong. She was making any laws so they left her answer the road. I don't know that anything wrong shall we would have liked to have had the two officers git into car, possibly and take somewhere. Maybe the station maybe talked or some more

she's not under age. This is the doll woman and She obviously was able to answer the questions well enough for the officers to say well, there's not much to do here now again. As you said totally, yet, where she's coming from this, her child. So It doesn't matter what protocol is or what processes are usually emboldened. These things, you only care about senior kit again. And in this instance, we have officers of the law standing with her daughter prior to. her going missing and there the last people who were confirmed to have seen her. So this is a very stressful situation and I can see why she believes that they, handle this call correctly, but just as an outsider get why they left her there. She is six years old charity you probably wearing her shoes by. my mom hates wearing shoes

no amount of conversation is going to get her to change her mind. I can well imagine that emma whether she's in a right state of mind or not, she doesn't like wearing shoes. She She doesn't she prefer. To walk barefoot? She has a lot of idiosyncrasies. if you knew Emma her walking on holding her shoes, be more normal behaviour. Then somebody on the outside that doesn't know her. Now, still it's really old out, so I'm not gonna, say that's normal to walk barefoot when it's freezing outside She had a lot of other odd behaviors leading up to this. She was removing some of the property. From the women shelter, putting it the front yard I guess it was some of the electronic equipment and furniture and when they told her

Do that please put it back, she wouldn't. She would hide some of it this whole situation, with emma moving furniture out of the women, shelter and under the law on this. Information that Shelly fell upon his discovering by us. in questions and it's it's it. the gold thing, because the shelter hast respect someone's privacy So some of the information she's getting she's. Probably not. Post to know when the furniture moved back in then decides to moved across the street, and they ask her why are you doing this? What's going on here? and she said that she's hearing things that the furniture he's talking to her It doesn't seem to like it, of course, and this was something that was going on about a couple weeks prior to the evening that Shelly arrives in Victoria about a week

before on november. Twenty is, which was a tuesday. Theirs video of emma going in visiting a. Why am CIA Jim? unity centre stuff there. She is taking out a membership. Well, I've heard she was of the building and leaves the building between four and six times in a fourteen minute period. She keeps entering an sitting coming and going it's becoming a pair that she's very paranoid she's. Looking around like her friend this quay on the road says that she was darting around looking around the street- he admits strangers at the women shelter would even say that they started to fear, Am I a little bit because of her odd behaviour? Not because they were, I guess afresh, that she was going to attack them, but

Just such a I'd be A view of such a weird thing to do that they just didn't know what was going to happen next. We talked about the officers. Speaking with emma, there were a couple the things that happen. That day too, earlier in the day at around eight thirty in the morning emma s third a seven eleven and purchased a pre paid credit card, which is odd because she already had a bank card and had thousands of dollars, but is buying a prepaid credit card and then While she was in the store, she was acting out again looking out the window and she seemed kind of paranoid close to six in the afternoon, Emma turns to that seven eleven and she bought a as you go cell phone, which is really because I'm never cell phones and she, for only one before and now, she's bought one and once again she's looking around as if

his paranoid she's worried, perhaps that someone's watching for her outside of the building, now we said her friend, called nine when one for welfare check that actually the second call to police that day there was one earlier in the afternoon were two witnesses saw her saw her odd behaviour and had called I dont think the police, bonnet and time to catch her in question her So she has a prepaid credit card Andy. I guess you call it a track phone or pay. As you go phone she's. No, I had a cell phone before I'm paranoid, I'm not to use my regular bank card can be tracked, I'm not going you use, paper, once or the phone at the women shelter anymore, because that's going to trace back to my location, I think she's trying to cover her tracks with these things, batches

initial knee jerk reaction or thought on that we should that she believes, possibly that she can't beat act with these new items that she's purchased she comments to her friend that people were following her that there were caught park down the street, and there was suspicious people that would look at her, so the shelter seeing this behaviour to under slow, coming out. With some of that sum, the details, but this is all coming from shelly just poland teeth and it sounds If the shelter is not that forthcoming, but giving her enough information that its putting the paint a clear picture here I'm seeing a paranoid skits a frantic, she has four. that you're talking to her. She thinks people are following her. She seeing dark

sudan's parked on the ends of streets. To me, this is a slow grew. Dual breakdown of reality, and it can happen slow and it can happen, quick in this case she had such eccentric behaviour that walking around barefoot not an abnormal thing, but then What is normal and in this world, when she's sleepy, outside or staying at women, shelter to me think this sounds pretty serious. Myself thinking this is. This is hitting rock bottom slowly. So time line six o clock. she leaves the women shelter six ten. She gets the cab to go to the airport but then doesn't go to the airport and made he spends a few minutes in the cab

Then she runs into her friend. Dennis quae speaks with him and tell close to seven when he calls the police and they big with her for another forty five minutes in smear hours later when Shelly her mother shows up in town Shelly. He off gets a room at the hotel across the street so that she can keep an eye on the shelter shoes hoping that she would see her daughter arrived back shelter because that's where she had been staying but she's, not resting on this she's. Also digging she's looking around she's asking questions she's, really. The reason why we have such a picture such a time line of what was going on with her daughter, because she was there find her daughter, and she did a lot of detective work and She also had a lot of support. They were, people that helped her in her search, but this

next day she pretty much calls authorities and submits the mist. person report right right too. His precious. When someone goes missing, you need to act quickly, oh she's contacting the police she's trying to put together a missing persons poster, but she doesn't have any pictures of emma with her again emily kind of moved away from her mother. She had lived with her father. She had lived with a friend, she had moved across the country, so she asked the shelter her time with the shelter is coming to an end, the shelter because of privacy. Concerns is going to shut her out, but luck for surely she gets a picture from them that she can you. To put on the posters, so she can plaster Victoria british columbia with missing, posters of emma fell upon her daughter on november, twenty ninth of twenty twelve chateau

Victoria arranges for tow truck to come retrieve, emma's van, that's in their lot police wool located later with all of her possessions and This is her passport, her laptop her camera all of her stuff. So you put this in place, active if she was just going to take off. She had a car show vehicle and we assume it's a functional vehicle. It's running. She has money to fix it up. She had had a toad many times before, so I guess parking canada pain in the bud up there, I've, lived in allay the only absolute so there are death and parking fines. So she's had this Van toad several times, and now, it's being heard once again after her disappearance, she's using this vehicle. She doesn't have any if her belongings with her that's,

a little weird, because it would be very easy for her to just get her van and take off, but has said she has this two hundred dollar prepaid card and a prepaid phone, and in her own bank card, but if she doesn't want to be tracked, maybe she's not wanting to take her vehicle but oliver possessions or an, and she doesn't have that much in her life. So much surprise. She doesn't take off on her van again. I think it That paranoia would repair annoy, has gripped her. It's not allowing her to take your own ban. She has to do something else. One thing we need what emma is that she likes to walk so taking off on foot probably what she does right she had got. The cab but then because she didn't want to spend sixty hours because she says she can't afford it, but we know she could she has the cab driver bring a right back. Were the cab driver picked her up. We

some idea that she's not of sound mind and that She is desperate, just not death enough to spend the money for whatever reason, bad You can't understand oliver choices. I just believe that she's being guided by paranoia at this point, same day her mother is going to the shelter she's to get as much information out of the staff as she can their blood drawing up a little bit and they tell her about furniture moving incident that same day. There is a weird report from a witness. They say they saw Emma at a lifestyle market. That's on douglas street, which is in that same area while days later, a witness reports. they incur a woman who tells them remember the name. Emma fill a path and asked

them to repeat it three times, that's odd! But again, these are just unconfirmed sightings, the beginning of december. now here's something that happens on December. Fifth, at eleven. Seventeen aim in the morning that too Your dollar prepaid credit card is you used at a picture, canada station the card gets flagged and, of course, the police, respond to go question the person who has this card. This is the first, this time we have some sort of, I guess hard. dance or something linking us to Emma? And it's this prepaid prepaid card ripe, right the police question the man apparently he's covering alcoholic he gives them location approximately where he found it. It's by a very large park and has trails

wooded areas. Do you think that would be the end of it, but it's not an that's because the police give that information to challis, but then this I turned around and starts contacting Shelly and he said in the first call he's. The man that had the prepaid card that belong to emma, but then he said Is that he's too nervous to talk? He causes, in time and says I just want to let you know that I don't really know where I found it. I can't remember what he called the third time I am, and he said that the police are lying because there's no way he doesn't know where he found it. So they can't say that the card was located by this park, meanwhile and worrying jump ahead, a little bit here, nay, twenty fourteen in ass town british columbia. We don't have a lot of movement happening we have

these missing posters for emma being posted up all around town, a random agitated man his captured on video going in, clothing store with a crumpled up missing persons, poster of emma yells out ever my girlfriend he just wants to be left alone. Then he actually takes the time. to look at some of the clothing in the store and look like a top and say this might fit my girlfriend. This might think emma. Yea said it's a small top and she's small, but this of course, alarms the people on the store. They call nine one. They have one camera, you can look up, pitcher online. It's been plastered everywhere, so this is a year and a half almost two years after the disappearance. It's really I began is this guy stands out, he has touched.

On his for arms, they sort of flames, and he had A particular walk peculiar, walk, as though there's something wrong with his leg he's limping or he's trying to but weird strut. I can't really tell myself you would that someone would know who he is, but no one has ever contact, contacted anyone to say who he was so is this. Is this some guy that is having fun at shelly, fella puffs expire, since at our families, expense. What is it's just an I dont know This is a key the person that gone in a spouse, some random stuff. If Emma ran off in is just I'm just speculate, living on the streets, its possum, that she's run in with different people. I I

say we can flip a coin on whether this guy's telling the truth or not Our listeners would be very disappointed if we didn't bring up a third person somebody, that's been an emma's life, a lot longer emma had a male acquaintance is what I'll call him when she lived in Perth, she was at a. I guess it was like a concert, slash art. Craft show or something some sort of festival and there was a photographer there and Emma being, I refer, having a degree and photo journalism was checking out stuff win this man named Julian strolls up and he's there pretty much to get Emma's attention. He. Talks to Emma. He wants to make plans with her

She says that she wants to see a concert and if he wants to go so he says, yeah, that's it this, so they start hanging out a little bit now. I guessed mate, they hung out a dozen times, possibly going on walks going different places and according to Julian, These are immediate plans emma, doesn't say in four. I've days. Let's do this now. She says: let's get together to morrow and everything is tomorrow. So if she makes plans is for the next day it even to the point where somebody says hey, would you like to do thing later. She might I don't know? Maybe things between her and Julian? Don't exactly work out? I would venture a guess that Julian was infatuated with her and

She was not so much to him and he paused. What was being clean or extending his welcome and she didn't want company any longer- and he didn't like that has an answer. He would call house and she would am. I do want to talk to you any more. You call back in this fight there would answer the phone and say she told do not call here any longer and then Emma would back on the phone to kind of new things out. It appear is that the sort of I don't know if I want to say a rocky breakup, because I don't even want to say that they were going out. You know no. I would comes down to I think is emma didn't like protection for what I stand and did her dad so do in calling hoping to reconnect with Emma. They were going to tell him off now.

Their james or emma they going to say: buzz off, creep, and I'm not saying he's a creep, he likes her and that's normal right. If you find a woman, you like you, pursue her it let her know, hey I'm interested in you I'd at least to be in your company and because neither james. Nor am I want confrontation. You know Julian's able to get them to talk on the phone a bit and he's not being told the buzz off? So it's kind of like he's left on the hook here, so emma living Perth cuts the sky off, and then moves too coover island, which is a twelve hour flight or days, drive away three months, before she disappears. Sue shows up in Victoria vancouver island thou, be julian.

There's an interview out there on the night time. Pod would Julian, where he explains why he moves to victoria in talks, bout weather patterns. He talks about a place He wants to ride his bike. He talks about just wanting to go to the west coast, part The police, something lost in translation PA I believe we just way. He is, there is also a message that he wrote in his father apologizing for stocking her, but when I listen to this guy now and I've covered stalkers on my peripheral podcast. I think you sound like a creep now and there's nothing that he could have said in any tone or way, there would have me, let me think, oh he's being up front- oh he's, I believe, em. I personally think

he went out there because he knew she was there. Now that said, I won't say that he had anything to do with her disappearance but its system. Little too convenient he moved thousands of miles across country and ended up in exact same town as emma to him they ran into each other and victoria hand. waiting to him. She was happy, see him at first and that they did interact and park, but in my eyes that's exactly what a stalker would say. I can't really leave him because of their past history. Is somebody tat me that they don't want me around I'm gone. I dont need to be told twice, in fact, I'd sort of think it's a bigger punishment to them. Removing myself from their life than it is telling me to go away. I dont know how this plays out, though I

Julian comes off very odd, and I feel he were explains thanks. If you were to just I just wanted to move to the west coast. I didn't know I was gonna end up might be a little, more believable to me, but then the lack of explanation. I might think well now isn't really want to say why he moved this one town. The talking about whether patterns and where he's gonna write as bike. That seems like over explain like he's, trying to really say I wasn't there for her. Now I give a little bit of a pass, though, because we have behaving in a very paranoid manner and I'm thinking is julian, guys, stalking her following her around this might explain her behaviour but she says that she sees cars parked on the end of streets. Follow julian doesn't own a car. He only rises pike, and she never says Julian's following me, pretty sure that date

did see each other in Victoria. She never tells him when its julian snare warns. Anybody that the sky from my asked is following me across the country, so is it is I think julian behaves in- is on coincidental as I find him to be in the same town as her. She for telling anybody. Julian is the guy emma. Called her mother in a vampire start. The twenty third saying, please get me and then would subsequently call back and say: no don't come, don't send me take it one way you can. look at this is what are you as being stopped- and was wanting help, but then very core. Is this fiercely independent person who doesn't ask people for help? So it's it could, a struggle. If you take until illness out of the picture if she

is being stalked if she is being followed, then Maybe this is her reaction. It's that struggle between. I need assistance, songs to call my mom, because need to leave here. This place is no longer what it was for me because Now my past is coming back to haunt me So I need to leave, but on the other hand, she doesn't want help from her mother because she's in it, and a person she doesn't need help from her mom. So is that it or what I really it comes down to. How do you see Julian I just see him as a love struck guy, who this was the one person who really want to be with not, I dont think in a life or death way, but he was going to give it some effort any did and it failed because, according to him, over the years some eight visits that he had with her. She made clear and clear that there was no future their dad she wasn't going to spend time with him, see air

and I don't always agree well one end same thing that happens with Julian is and this mother is hanging out at the library in going to all the places that emma with her, now that or spend a lot of time that an julian will be the library one day and law get Shelly reckon eyes her from the tv from posters from all the I'm an effort. She spending trying to find her daughter and he will approach her introduce himself. This day very odd and awkward situation now. I dont think Julian was there. Waiting on Emma. I think it's just small town in this actually might been a coincidence that an shelly were both at the library or not a coincidence because they're both for emma and they both

stand that emma likes to go to the library. Now my spinning it's always. However, you want to look at it. Maybe he's looking for her to write It almost seems as though Shelly was trying to say she felt ass, though he was watching her by what, if they're, both looking for the same thing? What if they're, both just looking for Emma that's how you gauge that one, that Shelly makes clear about her door that she knows for a fact about emma is that people are attracted her not necessarily in a sexual away, but just they like to be around her she's got good personality, she's, always happy. She makes everybody happy. She makes them smile to she's artistic she's interesting, so how do you say on one hand that Dennis quae take? time out the day to spend time with someone you'd only met once before is not weird, but Now you have julian, who apparently has himself too,

near emma and is sort of tracking her down looking for her if Emma's this magnet then isn't is understandable me. How do we know there weren't others that were like that? That wanted to get most emma- and once she made it clear that she didn't want them around that they did leave one of her friend in victoria talks about how, Emma is very out going in that she would talk to homeless people that she would talk to anybody so she is this magnet and I'm sure a lot of people like the attention span firstly from a younger women, so yeah, I think so could attract a lot of a lot of heat. well to her, but then it sort of this alleged sword of oh I'll. Talk to, right now at this moment, but give me my distance before we go into a lot of theories and

population, there's a few more things that happened This investigation that I feel are just worth mentioning: Shelly started a facebook. group and website help find emma philip off and people would fight, and different things. Our leads would come in, but there was a phone, oh of a woman. In a way, I guess a coffee shop. That somebody sent in sort of a profile pic. And if you look at this It looks a lot like emma, but she tractors photo down tracked down. Who was in the photo and another woman said now. It's me- and here are some four graphs of me and of course, these photos she said then don't look. Anything like Emma except for one which was more of a profile pic, but it just Congo's the show that people can look different and photographs everywhere

She comes across another photo, and I guess this is called the street photo and there is a group of people just. Hang it out on the road and there's a photographer who just wanted to take group shots. people in their natural habitats and it's what they call the skater girl and there's a woman carrying escape board and she walking along with canada, gutter punk looking guy, there is alive debate on whether or not this is emma now the photo I dont It looks anything liker, but it's all in the eye of the beholder the woman very run down and ragged, which I think any and would look that way if they had been living on the streets for years is what to do about this photo, but the first vote of this woman and coffee shop looked exist actually like emma and it wasn't her

so now. We see this other photo of random person, walking down the street its edge moreover, an odd situation and that that It was taken in vancouver, not victoria, which is just right across the water, so we have a few I guess hypotheses here, I think it's possible that Emma had a breakdown and is living on the streets, and that's I personally think thee most positive, theory or hypothesis to go with if we go with foul play we have a few suspects that stick out. First have julian, who we ve talked about at length, now Julian was interviewed by the police was even featured on. One of the tv shows, one of the numerous tv shows about emma's disappearance, and

not in a very favourable light. Yeah. That was the fifth estate documentary he has asked with Emma. He shows up in the same town as Emma he's certain messages to her father, saying sorry for stalking. But you should read the whole message and its context. stand that again. It might be something lost in translation, their english is now first language he's from quebec He also was willing to talk to Shelly. He was well owing to be interviewed at length on other podcast. I dont know the plea these questions julian, and they gave him up polygraph, which they say he passed will come back to polygraph later you you heard arrogant eyes, take on it. I think he comes off a little creepy, but that doesn't mean that he had anything to do with her disappearance. Errant thinks that he's just a regular guy and had feelings

or and wanted to be around or more. it sam in his mind, He loves her in her mind she likes her freedom, her independence, and she doesn't want someone attaching themselves to her. So you have people going in. for directions, but it might, anyone that doesnt automatically may can a killer he doesn't have a car. He has a bike. I don't know it's I'm not saying anybody who thinks that he's a good suspect is wrong. I just don't get that vibe. Then we have green shirt guy, which this is just so random that I dont know how much stock I put in it, but going off of the idea that if she's living on the streets, possible. This guy did know our very possible that he did read, nice her in this poster with the reward, I don't know What do you think of green short guy? What struck me about

In short, guy is something that he said and I know it curse, much on the show, but he said she ran away cushy, fucking hates her parents. Now. I think this is a detail that sticks with me because had issues with her parents, separation in divorce. She seemed to. her father a bit maybe just because her dad didn't ask her questions or because she and her add shared a lot of similar traits by it. This whole hates her family thing she go away from home. She went across the country and she want her freedom. So you wonder, is this someone speaking from experience? They know this is something emma would say, or have they really, Reading up on this case, and no more than you would assume, because after glances of some crazy guy walking into a store and talking nonsense. Crumble, up a note and holding up

in saying this would fit emma see, I look at that and I think we'll who else would be looking for, of course, it's her family. So a incoherent ran about. She doesn't want to talk to her family isn't totally out of place to me, but it is just sort of odd. That desk does this and makes mention about her parents? he hated on the head kind of thing, would have been sitting in his apartment somewhere and this bugging him that there's this search going on for ever philip off and maybe in his mind, that stupid, because she just wanted to get away from everybody, so looking for already that could explain it. I think why he takes the time to do it. I don't know Finally, we have are pre paid credit card guy that, wanted to use her carter, had a gas state he was buying cigarettes yeah

recovering alcoholic who called and his mother three times and where did he say he found the card. Why set apart, but at the end your place is known as the Wanda fucker recreation centre, its by a large park trails, but this is He apparently told the police and the police pass on information along too shelly fella path, but then, as we He started making phone calls to Shelley and at first, he was too nervous to talk. The second call. He clears it up and says. I remember where I found the card and then the third all seems to say about the police that their liars that he didn't know where he found it. There's no way they could say that he found it by this recreation centre. So the first call. He says he's too afraid to talk, which just seems weird to me, because either a he's afraid, because he might be considered a suspect or be he

should be a suspect that this is not good either way from finding a pre a card. That's from missing person I think I'm gonna be reaching out to the family. His second and call saying I don't remember where I found it. And then police are lying. They didn't find it over there. It seems that he's trying to distance himself or the hard from the location of where he claims he found it gee. I immediately just jump to well there's a park there Maybe that's where she is any. Trying to trying to tell shelly don't look there, but when you tell somebody that I think that kind of keys off to go look over there now. I don't know me as near as I can tell everybody who looks at this case just dismisses the sky.

bad memory. He doesn't know where he found the card were moving on right. Will you in between him and Julian. They were given polygraph ass an they pass, so their cleared her I'd like excuse me they were given a white and they cleared on Y, a polygraph. You can flush down the toilet, I dont care about of polygraph were these guys interrogated. These guys extensively questioned and we're not talking about Julian anymore, we're talking about the prepared credit card guy. I dont, how about a polygraph. How is this guy cleared and why did he feel the need to start calling shelly out of the blue. Think I know Why- and this is just my opinion, but when Shelly philip off first went to the police about her daughter being missing their answer to her was we have thousands of people,

go missing in vancouver every year. So in our It's not even taken number and get in line its sorry. We can't have you, what I'm trying to say is is the end. The being led by Shelly, philip off so looking at it from there at point of view you have this guy who found this prepaid credit card and tried to use it Whether he was involved in Emma's disappearance or not or even if he had, as just told me when we are talking about possibilities. What if he had come across her body? He doesn't to be involved in a death. Instigation. Okay, that's the feeling I get there. He was involved or not. He doesn't want to be a part of this and so with Shelly, who is having to manage investigation by herself with lots of volunteers, of course she's a when managing this, and so on he gets to her and says: don't we

about this, because I don't know anything I can tell you anything about this: it's a mystery. Let it go It seems to have worked because everyone talk to about this, they all say. Well, he doesn't know anything, no, that's taking him at his word right can think is, is the only evidence. Has turned up since she went missing. Is this pre paid credit card and this man had it? The police verified it They tracked him down, but they take them seriously. I'm just one because they shelly, no early on that, you kind of stuff on your own on this item no, how much effort they put into it irrigating him and now he's make calls to Shelly look if he can't remember where he found the car, but he can remember her number and remit to call her back. Something bothering this guy, I dont know what it is. I'm just saying when it comes

onto leads in evidence. This is it this what you have you have this guy. You have this prepaid credit card, and if you could figure out where he, he found it, which I'm just going to say if he can't remember I'm going with what the first thing was, which is this wonderful. girl recreation centre get out there. when I understand happened, was the police went out there and did a little bit of a search engine take a long time to find somebody. If we assume that something happened to her out there whether it was accidental explode, you're. What have you then you need to know where to search, and I don't see what anyone has a better search place. Then this place this where the card was found, according to the first report, she's not moved on living on the street somewhere, if the poor, I think it was suicide or if you want to go a foul play, whatever it is this.

B, where she is, I'm surprised eyes that we haven't heard this on other podcast ass or youtube channels cause this stuff two errand and I did one guy with the prepaid card who seems to be passed over right here, You're my spidey senses thinking go search, the part maybe we're off base. I dont know, but stuck out to me julie six out a little bit to me, but not not as bad as this because the sky had physical evidence on him either he founded on, saw the road or he got it for emma directly. Let's I gotta how that works. Emma was known to walk for quite a distance, and barefoot too We said that it was about forty degrees fahrenheit. That night in the area and, if she's out that way she could have dropped this card it's entirely possible- the other

possibility is that for a good while there she was not eating properly, which is disturbing to me, because she should, caring for herself so she's in my opinion she. Going out into very cold weather, where at least close seamen k for the weather but she's barefoot, since she's probably malnourished, I dont know how she handles being in agree weather as well as the average person, would because she's not your average person anymore. In my mind, if you look at her behaviour and look at the way she wasn't eating and then that she seemed to move away from people pulling away she's moving away. She doesn't want people clinging onto her whether it's her parent. or whether it's someone who's interested in her anyone so in my opinion, whether

she added a dying or whether she was just moving on getting out of the area. She was moving. We look at what evidence there is its justice prepaid credit card. So, in my opinion, that's where the investigation should have focused at least until it couldn't go any further there are, in my opinion, just taking the guide. As word is satisfactory to me and of peace. are looking for in a new lead? This leads Their thousands of people go missing or are reported missing in the bank over area every year, there are hundreds thousands of john and Jane doze that are never claimed, get buried with anyone ever knowing that their loved one is gone There are so many ways to slip through the cracks and you have to. he's going off those numbers justin when you were talking about this. What

her to me was wait a minute. Some of those people at least half tat people looking for them yeah, but just because- a body ends up in a more doesn't mean that they know who to contact or even how to identify the person. There are checks, and there are ways I'm sure Shelley and her family has called hospitals called everyone they can, but the system just is imperfect. and that's the reality of it trying to say that any ones at fault, I'm not trying to say that their efforts were for nothing saying that mistakes happen, the morgue, the hospital they don't always register people properly, somebody's having an off night typos, something find them later. There's a million things. I can go wrong when you're trying to find somebody there's a man and things that can go right. You can find random pitcher of ST seen in fine, simply find your missing daughter or of all the

thousands of people that go missing every year, which is horrifying to me I can't even imagine what that's like when I go there rush restore- and I see the the bulletin board of- missing children missing adults. I just think how does that happen? In hearing you talk with Shelly, it's it's just so hard to grasp what she's going through and how Law enforcement, I'm sure, isn't taking it as seriously as she wants them to, because she, is the driving force behind this search behind this investigation. When I was true, think of what I thought may have happened. To Emma am fellow path. I really want, to get a sense of who she was and where she was headed, and I already spoke about her behaviour as they Just then, in the weeks leading up to her disappearance, her fierce independence and her eccentricities one of the things that,

friend of her said her friend aim Ellen said that Emma would tell her don't tell anyone else about where she was going. So if she said hey, I'm going to do this he would tell her friend dont tell anybody- and she said it didn't matter where there was a big thing or a little thing it just emma. Really wanted her privacy now. I imagine, if she's getting paranoid, that this would only get worse if she's, not using her vehicle and she's abandoning areas that she used to live in, to me- am I is trying to get away. She had he got away from Perth ontario now She has Julian out there in Victoria. Her mother is showing up and dictatorial, and it's not against Shelly phillip off as nothing against even julian, if they I'd get away and they feel more comfortable communicating over email, but not in person,

I can see why she wants to take off the problem with Is that emma was bidding, really odd behaviour. If the nature is talking to her That's not a simple matter of I dont want anybody to come near me. I want to be by myself, know the furniture stocking and when you add that in with not one to be around some these people. After all, she told her mother not to show up and again I think Shelly did the right thing. You need to do it. You have to do. And that means fly out there and did you a rescue, then you should do because you care, but if ms trying to get away and he's getting out of a cab and she's walking, then we don't know where she ends up. I just know that If she's, malnourished and she's barefoot and she has what I understand- vision issues at night- then I dont know where she ends up. I know you're going to say what was only forty degrees of forty degrees.

for a normal person, is probably ok for someone. Who's now getting the nutrition they need whose unhealthy at this point don't think you can just say it was only forty degrees and soon he's trying to get away. She's going you probably if she's moving furniture out of her room and saying is talking to her? I don't think we can say she's going to make a good decision as she moves forward ass, she was down the road she may off into the woods. She go into the water, we don't know what would happen and she's not do, the things you think she would do she had a vehicle. She had a bank with thousands of dollars. She had a prepaid credit card two hundred dollars, I she had a cell found it was never used or activated why wasn't it activate if she had that she could have reached out to somebody, but that never happened? And that's because I hate to say it but in this fight

time that she had that anybody had any interaction with her. She was pulling away more and more in it ah, that she reached out to her mother the way she did. It was like this instinct you know we all have this instinct within ourselves to this self preservation. It's like that kicking in, but then she was fighting it and down. But I was speaking with Shelly. There is a song by you to its title to violet and theirs a line in here there want to read- I guess the price of love. I know its, not cheap, and to me what Shelly fill a path has going through since since no one, twenty eight, two thousand twelve, is that her love for her daughter is immense, and even though her daughter kind of kept her at bay just in munich, once a month through email. Her mother doesn't at that her mother loves her

conditionally, and this search that she's been on for nearing five years now it's not ending and I think some that's something stuck with me because if you really truly love somebody, you don't stop loves, always going to be there and it's going to cut deep because we you're hurting because of that other person ages the payments magnified by how much you love them, so Can we imagine how shelly has to deal with with her daughter disappearance shelly! to go out to Victoria to pick up her daughters, things. That's a painful reminder that our daughters nowhere to be found there are things that a lot to her daughter shelly. Because she doesn't know what happened to your daughter is. Holding onto these items so that hopefully, one day if she returns, she can return these things to her. We a special message from unless mother Shelly, we like

who, in the show with shall provide information about what you can do to help if people would like the help and show a puppy, and then share the help find out the philippines page. Some people told me the understand that light is wonderful on it and it's it's good for my morale, but it's the show air that we named, because every share. We don't know how many hundreds of people are going to see it so that something that people can it was the go on the help find an assault on facebook page like it. Yes, of course, that there are over ten thousand lakes and then that will go up forever anniversary because I always some the sometimes I opposed the song depends on how prolific I've been doing the month, but I normally right a palm for and posted by yet, The people would share that page. We could double the numbers of people that become aware of her at her missing status

that's, why it's all important to keep the story alive? I cannot rest for a minute on its important people, not forget that emma has not been found. That's my big focused! That's why I appreciate people make you erin willing to do this because I need this is what I need. I need more and more people to hear about it because it's going to take one person, but you ve got to find that one person and you can't find that one person unless europe you're putting it out there well having great night. Ok, thank you so much here and I really appreciate it. Thank you. Shelly. you're probably listening to this podcast, because your curious about something and that's why they create magellan tv, a new kind documentary streaming service for smart, curious people, wanna see something worth watching if crime is your passion. They have a deep collection of binge worthy playlists and original true crime stories. You won't find anywhere else from numerous,

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