The Fairbanks Four. October, 1997. Fairbanks, Alaska. A 15 year old named John Hartman was found badly beaten on a curb in downtown Fairbanks, Alaska. At the hospital he was placed on life support as police worked the case and tracked down witnesses and suspects. By the next day John had died and authorities felt certain that a picture of what had happened was quickly coming into focus. But after four convictions and almost two decades the case had changed and the four who had landed in prison for murder were being released after new evidence made its way before the courts. Had the Fairbanks Four been wrongfully convicted? Or could they have committed the murder and then convinced many otherwise?
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I don't get a lot of time to sit down and read a book noise on the go
but I love reading, so the solution is audible, audible,
offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Best sellers new releases celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers catch crime and there too, as an audible member, you can choose one title a month
putting the latest best sellers and new releases. One of my favorites is
connections uncovering the real causes of depression and unexpected solutions only
bon audible? Let audible help you discover new ways to laugh and be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash gdp or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible.
Calm, slash, gaeta, BP, a montague
from our sponsor gang their good? I mean
the cops were rumpled suits and are all roughened and or whatever, but they get the job done. Sometimes it seems like the poor
might have had him fooled, but that ironclad
alibi by
through that were that tiny teeny lie the killer, told them the first interrogation boom. He may wonder: how is
going to end, but that's kind
fond of a good crime story. Are you ready to stream some crime stories right now? Hulu, it's a crime not to watch
I don't know I'm doing
ok just and harry you here doing
good as I can be well. What better
to kick. This often does say we're back a
happy new year and all that good stuff,
hope you were able to survive a little bit of a hiatus from the generation. Why
For those of you who were curious.
We have a venue now, for our los angeles california meet up on march. Twenty fourth it'll be from three
to seven p m pacific time at idle. Our
it's gonna be loads of fun. We were
to get a venue where we could do like a show and stuff, but always expensive, so you
it's gonna get to hang out with us. Instead, tonight's case takes place and
fairbanks, alaska, nineteen, ninety seven and it sir group of kids. There
get into some trouble one cold night there, all
they're all teenagers, and I personally don't think you can really look at any one in this case and think they were a perfect angel. But I was
in a perfect angel either at their age. So I don't judge them on things that happened. Twenty.
Thirty years ago,
I only judge this case on the evidence. So what are we talking about tonight, her tonight? We're talking
the case of the fair banks for and they,
for young men who were accused of beating to death a fifteen year old boy
name of John hartman, so
we're. Being alaska has allowed
over thirty thousand people that live there. A lot of it is blue collar. I
dont want to say that its low income, but
there's not a lot of opportunity there for all that
population
bashfully, the young, the younger crowd, the teenagers
is not a lot for them to do so-
drug use and alcohol is pretty rampant. This is
a knock against
Anyone that lives there. This is
is what happens in
Any city, any town where you dont have a lot of things for kids to do there as well.
in particular night that people like to
go out and celebrate some people call
wild night because everyone
in the town receives a dividend,
for the
oil and other industries.
around that area? So
these people that are now
very well off, get
a fairly large check like a lot.
people who aren't used to having
any money or living paycheck to paycheck when they get a check
they want to celebrate now whether this is going out drinking going
Gambling boards,
partying in general. Also,
Everybody knows everybody's
paid that same day, so the darker
side of this is
criminals or opportune
will come out and try
steel checks from other people, though play
pretty much the knock out game. If most of you know this, it was a
net phenomenal a while ago, but you
up to somebody in you sucker.
them and knock them out? And while you record it now, this is
you know the late ninetys there now
recording this, but the running
and attacking people in an hour.
or to steal their money or get their check from them this night
is overwhelming for the local law enforcement.
on the night of october. Eleventh.
Ninety ninety seven, the police,
her so short handed that their actual
calling up other officers,
on their night off and asking
the come in and work. They can't keep up the
alaska permanent fund sends out dividend checks about every
october and this
they all started in nineteen? Seventy six as an amendment to the alaskan constitution and its arise,
big deal for some people.
people who out of work or who don't earn very much money at the time in ninety. Ninety seven, the checks that went out forever
native alaskan, which, by them
definition would be anyone who has spent a calendar year in a row
skype
Nineteen. Ninety seven, that payout was one thousand
two hundred ninety six dollars and fifty four cents, so
You can imagine how
that went over there. A bunch of people out ready to party raided by things
or has just mentioned people ready.
Take this as an opportunity to get some free money, but this why
night brings out all kinds of people
The centre of this case really is a young man by the name of John hartman, who is fifteen years old at the time he was out.
with a friend named chris stone
what we know is is he was actually wearing chris stones pants
kristen had these corduroy pants. They were
We baggy on John, because Chris were
larger than he was.
I don't know. I know some people like to wear baggy clothes.
back in the nineties, baggy pants worth kind of a trend. Now
Chris was known to be a drug user. He accompanied
on hartman out that night, but at some point supposedly according to
risk. They part ways and this
is really the start of this horrible night for
hartman
during the night there down
from house to house and
it is alleged that their drinking can taking well beaten and its
employed John hartman, actually goes into a seizure or kind of flips out. He will.
I help people throughout the night that he's been
taking well beaten and he'll, tell people that has been taking lsd now.
skip ahead, a little bit autopsy report.
It will show that he did not
I have system and they didn't
then find the well do you turn into system either so long
alcohol, that's all
we can really confirm but
as most teenagers do they like to talk up them
ass. They like to act like they're doing something
far more rebellious or cool than just hanging out and drinking, so that sort of
theme, I think that might carry this story along, but yeah they
bright ways at some point. During the night and johns
walking home, we assume, but there
saying they're going home
they had been offered rides home earlier that they
I turned down
So, whether or not John was on his way home or
heading somewhere else to party some more. This sort of up the near but his fur
and stone is the last person to see him alive.
early that morning, and this is what would you say around one-
thirty in the morning yeah
a woman by the of Melanie, was staying at a woman, shelter on
the avenue, and this
area is in downtown fair banks. She
is watching a show and she gets. I don't know she reaches appoint the show where she does not interested so she steps outside.
to have a cigarette, and she
there's a smack. Sound
this is kind of like imagine someone getting hit or slapped on the skin.
And then she hears us-
can smack. And then
a voice saying help me help me.
She could then hear what sounded like someone getting beaten and then
a second voice older who sounded drunk with
a native accent.
So a native alaskan accent. She also
said this voice sounded very angry, but she could
make out what they were saying. She didn't kill
the police, but she did go down and speak too.
Person that ran that the women, shelter and told
what was going on so they stepped outside, to listen to see if they could hear anything else, but they do
hear anything and they
It's really see anything here because
of where the sound was coming from. She could tell it was coming from a relatively busy street, so she figured okay well they're, not calling the car
spite someone driving by will have seen something and if someone down their needs, help they'll get help. Someone will stop
that's it about one thirty in the morning and then
calvin, moses
driving Louise lambert and her sister home and
they noticed some one lying half in the road louise. When she looked at the person line lying down like they were on the ground, she said it look like
little boy stretched across the curb and into the road. That's how she described it. He was still breathing and they know that because it is really cold out and they could see his breath coming out, but he was bloody about the head:
louise notice that his pants were down towards
his knees, his corduroy pants and they left to get help
they didn't want to stay there and
to get help because they were nervous that whoever it attack this kid made still been in the area of is actually less than ten degrees at night. I think it was about eight degrees paramedics.
got. There are very quickly. They know
is that his pants had been pulled down. They noticed
that, because the way he was moving that he has
effort head trauma and they could see
and so that as well,
so. They didn't another test where they shine a flashlight in his eyes and his pupils didn't dilate. So that looks
really really bad the people that stopped
and discovered this young man. That was it to fifty so, but
we, in the time that Melanie over at the women shelter, heard something what sounded like an attack to her and
the time that people acts
stop to help who had seen this kid lying down on the ground. It was in our
and twenty minutes
That's a long time for someone who's been brutally attacked to be
lying there in the road
so they rush
This young man to the hospital- and he is
put on life support.
During the night
another teenager name: eugene vent has been out salary,
being in partying there,
a hotel that a lot of the kids I too frequent.
The alaska motor n
A lot of under age. Teens will go there and drink and party in the owner of this.
Hotel more that manage
that's on the night shift, he's called
the police and saying hey. You have kids that are out of control. Here
being the night that it is. The key
our real receptive to out of control. Kids, even when
He tells them there's underage drinking. Still, nothing
happening until he says one,
These kids brandished
a firearm and threatened him with it? Well that
an happen, a lot and fair banks, apparently in the cops or their pronto, but this is
not until much later in the morning. His first calls
we're probably around three a m the cops they pick up. You
and who is really do
a case. I think his blood alcohol was point one five, eight,
double the legal limit and he's under age. So there is really no legal limit for him
Andy hotel honour says that's the guy.
That threatened me with a gun
so: the police arrest him they do not.
And again on her hand
it's never exactly
proven if he was
the actual person that threatens
hotel owner or if he just happened to be-
lucky teen that got pointed out that well, I think, give in
The lack of evidence here
I, just assume that the reason why there was a gun brought up at all is just like what you are talking about. He couldn't get the cops to come out,
and he was at his wits end. These kids were parting it up and trash,
the place yea, it is too much for him. He was dying. He was past his limit and I think the gun
simply brought out because he was a desperate man. At that point, it's very possible
because I don't, I don't think eugene.
Actually had a gun on him, because this
is going to sound bad, but a dream
teenager isn't going to be smart enough to ditch the firearm. When the cops come arrest him, that's it,
not going happen. He would still had the gun on him at the time
the arrest them
bring in eugene
questioning and
I understand that he is wasted out of his mind,
He is seventeen years old and he's been
stood now and brought in for questioning you can
imagine how well this goes.
Hours and hours where
They would allow him to sleep for a bit and then
they go, wake him up again and continue the questioning
What were the types of questions they're asking a mere these
active that was interviewing. Eugene was detective ring and he starts off
by asking him feed like a parent present and eugene's,
doesn't matter I'll, be eighteen next month, so
However, I adult at adults, this talk to me,
and they read him his rights and let him know they can have a lawyer. He doesn't have to talk, but they would like him to. Of course he starts
off by asking you jeanne about the gun he said here, is that it
Wigan is a real gun
eugene responds. I didn't have any gun at all then
ask him about the trouble on barnett street and he said
confused. He doesn't seem to know about barnett street, so
detective ring, insists that
He knows something about it and brings up
of his acquaintances, summoned by the name of harley someone
eugene knows he said
You ve already told them. You know I mean parties already tolls about what happened at ease
hall and at burnett street eugene's
I will hardly can say where we wants now. He said
you ve already been identified with a gun. You got
fight it eagles hall, and then you got in a fight at barnett street, and so you
jeanne asks him if its by the
laskin motor in and its
really from here. You get the sense that eugene starts to sort of try to answer. Detective rings questions or respond to his accusations,
they're, not on the same page. It all eugene's thinking one thing about his night and the detective is asking about
something completely different- and you know it
they get into the interrogation technique that
give ring and sergeant kendrick in some of these other long, for
meant figures use its the red technique,
and it's really coming
the place of. We already know everything. So
make it easier on you. You just need to tell us what happened you can
fight in us. In the more you tell us the better it will be for you just fill in the blanks ring.
Asks him who he was out with, and he said
I was out with my friend Conan he's.
That he and Conan went to eagles hall and, after that,
Eugene laughed and went along to the alaska motor in and this
work is really confusing because you have to understand. The detective is coming from
place of we have
fifteen year old who got beaten almost to death whose on life support may not.
make it and they have picked up the sky
who was really drunk
and who was already identified by
the man
moreover, at the alaska motor in as having been involved in some things and already
gun. So now they have his dangerous person there. Trying to
next him to this Burnett street attack and so eugene starts tellingham about Michael Luton, bachar, who,
was wanting to buy wheat from him and you,
makes it sound ass though he were
the do sell that night, but loom
Fucker was acting tough and was getting on his nerves, so he didn't want to deal with them.
There's this whole story about how he told Michael Luton Bachar, you know just page me later, I'm going home
again, obviously not on the same page at all, with the investigators.
Ring keeps asking him about a fight, Annie
referencing his bloody shoe print and he keeps referencing it
Jeanne has no idea. What he's talking about yeah, detective ray
tells him that
found his shoe print in blood.
The scene on barnett street. So
Eugene says well
all if they say I was there, I guess I was there, but I go all over downtown and he's like know. You were there where the city
was you were in a fight? Theirs
blood on your shoes, and your shoe print was in the blood on the street
and a dab point. Eugene looks down at his shoes for blood and the detectives
m dont, bother cleaning it off. We already know, but this was
im affirming this with eugene a drunk.
Seventeen year old over fifteen times
for eugene says,
Maybe I was there.
And then eugene, though, he's thinking about this, and he says if I was in a fight
would have bloody knuckles and then
detective ring responds not if you used a tire iron or something like that.
and you Jeanne said
no, I dont use stuff like that. I use my bare knuckles and again John harmon had been beaten and stopped
To death, so this isn't lining up but
they say- he's pretty much confessed here.
because he's like- or maybe I was there sounds like I was there.
so they're going down that avenue? They feel like their breaking him now take a moment.
get a word from our new sponsor priceline. Do you have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer getaways, but never
they go anywhere. Well,
summers. Finally, here it's time to get out of the office or your house and get a change of scenery with price line you can save up to sixty percent on your favor hotels plus, find amazing deals on car rentals, an flights, and when you save money you can explore more. That means more beautiful views and experiences and more poolside fun doesn't matter where you travel zones or out of the office. I always use price line to find the lowest rates out there and you should do a price line. Every trip is a big deal.
So when you ready to book your next summer, adventure visit price lined up com for the best deals that are.
we get more out of it.
Moment to get a word from our sponsor. Cove co
believes everyone deserves to feel secure.
Purity shouldn't just before the rich and famous: that's why they make home security systems
that are easy to install, affordable and reliable cove arrives configured for your home and you install it and just mere minutes. No technician required and it's easy to control from the sleek touch screen or up its professional grade systems price to be affordable and come with life.
Equipment, warranties, faster,
spawns times thing competitors, because threats, don't sleep sakharov doesn't either no contracts. Twenty four by setting friendly customer support, try the number one customer rated home security system order today and get fifty percent off your customized system get started
cove, smart, dotcom, ensigncy,
keeps bringing up this fight eugene keep.
Thinking of Michael Luton, bachar and thinking he must have got into a fight, but he
isn't their witness it. So he doesn't know anything about it.
He doesn't even know where it might have taken place
ring is trying to get him to talk about barnett street and eugene? Just isn't getting it. So eugene
starts telling him he's tired
Ring tells him that his friend is in the hospital and he's hurt
real bad,
they don't know it yet, but,
The young man is John hartman, his fifteen years old and who
we're attacked him, beat him and stomped on him
well. He may not make it an eugene is concerned. He wants to know who was he's like I don't know of any friends who got hurt so
tell me who it is, give me a name and
detective, says: well,
He didn't, have any idea him. We don't know his name. That's why we're talking to you. You know
to give us? His name
Eugene says I wasn't
I don't even know who this would be so
Give me a name gimme whenever you have, and I will try and figure it out basically
he he just doesn't know what the detective is talking about. So
how eugene is turning it really frustrated, because he saying you don't believe me and have already told you everything I know. So. Why should I keep talking?
That's what is basically telling the detective, because the detective keeps
Don't lie to us. We already know this. We already know that you just need to come clean with us. So then re
asks him after a while
we was with at night than barnett
now remember eugene doesn't seem to know about this area and is only admitted to being there, because supposedly there is forensic evidence showing that he was there a bloody footprint, yet, which seems,
conclusive right yeah so
Eugene says Williams, Lou
bachar and me, and
Dana and and who is Conan's girlfriend
now. He says: Conan stayed at the hall eagles hall, which is where there is a big dance.
There because of a wedding, I think, but
williams and luton bachar are the two people that he was around that night, mostly because
he was trying to sell we'd, so
take ring wants to know how they got from ego.
Hall tonight than barnett
eugene says that they walked they circle
around and around about harley again
supposedly, what had happened was at some point that
one of his plans that night was to meet up with harley because harley
twenty five dollars so
to collect detective ring
springing this back up talking about harley, because supposedly harley gotten
waste, and so there look
four confrontations here. Were you involved with this? Were you there when this happened and you
he isn't getting it
still doesn't always talking about any true.
To tell the detective that he never ended up meeting with hardly any
activists, like that's, not true.
To me so the first rate,
It gets worse he's like
don't believe anything I say
told you all. I know what more
Can I say or do he starts
asking Eugene more questions about the different people, eugene responds by saying, but why don't you just go talk to that person to
As the interview is happening, it's not really going anywhere, but the data
it already has it in his head and it this is very evident and when you agree just in that, he believes
that eugene was involved in this attack, but,
there's zero row
to it. He was picked up because he allegedly
reddened hotel owner with a gun. He wasn't picked up for a fight. He wasn't picked up because he
was identified as being at the scene of the crime. None of that they're just
pulling a man
questioning of about another random acts of violence. That happened, but it really seems like in this is something we ve heard about many times. As though say: oh as soon as they talk of this person, they fixated on them and they now
we're got off of em. So that's why we end up with this person being convicted. This is
are those times where this is absolutely that, like I've debated
pass with other people about different cases and whether there is a suspect
or a person of interests who is focused on in
to the exclusion of everyone else. This is it
this is so apparent that this detectives
looking after him for that
the attack but
genius is in getting it. He doesn't understand what this detective
talking about it's really apparent. I think that if they were
trying to investigate who could of beet this this teenager, he should have said hey. Did you happened,
yet the street in the street during the night, yea or nay,
You happen to know anyone that god and any fights tonight I mean more general questions,
cause. They're diving right in their not getting anywhere and
I don't even know why they fixated on eugene,
people say well, it's because you know he's
native alaskan
racism. They just do it.
to anyone.
That's of you no more of an ethnic descent. I dont know
it's so weird that they fixated on him that night, because there was nothing tying him to the scene. Eugene was picked up.
Early the next morning after the attack
as I said, the detective is really focused on him really feel
I like he's connected somehow. So as part of that interview
if you want to call it an interview, they get names
They get a lotta names. That night
has been telling them about all these random people. He's hung out with an hasn't hung out with so
which names are valid and which ones are invalid, which ones pertain to the murder.
which ones don't really it's anyone's guess and were playing like throw
dark at a door bored with names on it and we'll just start picking those people out, but something interesting happens the next day his friend jack.
urge freeze makes a visit to the hospital he's, hurt his foot or his ankle he's dishevelled.
Like probably most teens in this town after the wild night, they say what would you do to your foot and heel?
goods that he got into a fight in the nurse who happen
to be a nurse
That's been working on the other boy that
dying upstairs because he's been starved to death, says wool: are we
I see the other guy. You got into a fight with an george
now you're probably not going to see him. This
It's really bad because
They know that the door
teenager, was kicked and stormed.
And now you have another kid coming in. Who has a foot injury
It is talking about being in a fight now,
to me is the total red flag, I'm not
it's enough that you need to come.
Immediately, but this
makes more sense. This is a lead yeah. This is someone you should talk to now,
there at the hospital he's playing to get
x, ray done because he feels like his ankle or as foot might be broken. So
the detective is talking, did George george
right from the beginning. Here, says
He doesn't remember anything now to detect.
doesn't give up? He continues saying
may take some time for him to be able to talk, because he knows that he might feel some shame, or this is just a lot to deal with that he's had a long night, but george
just keep saying he doesn't remember overtime, detective rain
who is the one interviewing him is
getting more and more determined to get information from him and, in fact, if you were to reach
through the transcript,
you'll see that most of what is said is by detective ring
George hardly says anything. This is really just ring running at the mouth cons
we talking and telling him things
and george saying I d.
no, I dont remember so then,
directive rain has georgia's girlfriend, get his left shoe or boot. They just want
no they're going to have a sergeant kendrick, take it to see if they
match it against the print that is on the skin of the victim and george. Doesn't
seem phase by this like whatever so they take it. The detector
says you know you're having trouble talking about this you're having trouble remembering what, if I
to drive you two where the crime occurred. Would you
ok with that and george
seems agreeable to it. So the detective takes him
just want to add this in real quick. It's really
trusting to me to see these young guys who party get into trouble be so respect
full and cooperative with law enforcement, ivy not
that they shouldn't be, but
there's no attitude here, there's no, I'm not going to
to you or anything there there actually pretty willing and open with law enforcement and agreeable, really so george
taken to the crime scene. Then they come back door
freeze ends at mentioning vernon roberts as an aim of someone who was there now
their meaning. I guess he's trying to appease this detective, because the detectives very insistent upon you know you are
at this scene, where there was this terrible beating this visit
to the crime scene. Didn't help him, though, because he still most of the time he's just saying. I don't remember the detectives,
its pressing. Him assures him that
remember
especially since he injured his foot, so they kind of get in.
Who, how he entered his foot and according,
george. He had kicked the ground.
And that's how he injured his foot, but the detective
working him in and saying you know, there's this kid that got badly beaten
and you must have been there and that's how you injured your foot right well,
eventually join.
Says well, he might have kicked
a couple times and then that third
I'm he was gonna, kick him again. He actually that's when he kicked the ground and then we went down because hurt so bad. So now
this point. If you're just in
active person
this is very suspicious. Not only did he start by saying you, you probably won't see the other guy that I fought with
but now he's saying that he kicked somebody
couple times and then the third time you went to kick them, he injured his foot and that's. Why he's at the hospital this
this is a red flag. It looks really bad. Is it this guy
is absolutely the one that did this
We don't know yet, but-
It sure sounds like
wasn't an altercation the night of where he was.
kicking somebody because,
of the detective.
Having already talked with eugene now, then
starting to try and put together a picture of who could have been involved in this. I guess you could say:
their biggest piece of evidence, at least in terms of trying to put together people
place is a picture of a boy.
skip all team and the four people who had played
I believe three of them were official players. The fourth one was academically ineligible, but they were george fries eugene,
and Marvin roberts and Kevin peace.
These are the fair banks for
and this is what they're going to start using to try and get these people the top.
By saying hey these your bodies, you you're out with him right well when asked you
urge about. Eugene he's
as I only see him every couple months. I don't see him that much. These guys are friends
but they're, not best friends. So now,
Georgia's game really frustrated and he said
its cursing any say
get it in your efforts head. I dont remember because the detective
is telling him hey. I know you were there. I knew you were involved. You were kicking this poor kid,
and he doesn't remember anything he says so he's
This really tired of talking to this detective. He can t
the curse in response to this detective. So then detective
he says, don't treat me without respect and george
doesn't even want to respond to that. He still really frustrated now. He's cursing. Even more he's
everything's f, this f that job
actually says at this point he says. Get me
notice or something I don't remember, in other words
bring someone who can pull the truth out of me, because I've got nothing now at this point, detector
ring leaves the room and you
freeze, wisest sitting. There says I want to go home
I want to leave yet this is significant because he's being recorded so
not as though no one hears this. This is equivalent to
king, a police officer
I being detained-
am I under arrest and if you're not you get to leave, but the detail,
if he acts like it in here right at this point sergeant,
drink walks in he's
sk saying you know detective ring had spoken with you earlier, but you're having having difficulty remembering thing, so I'm in
to try and help you out. Let's talk about this, one
I like about this part- is sergeant. Kendrick actually asks him. What are you doing less
let's talk about where you were so
words tells them that he was at crystals drinking at eleven thirty p m or so and crystals his girlfriend.
The sergeant asked them well: where were you at
and he says where they were these- these kids-
jump at around from house to house so they're trying to pin
point their location to see if it was
ass to the murder scene. He keeps were
during two marvin roberts as vernon, and I found
some of the people involved in may? Not
this case, but in that area? Have other names me
they have preferred names they go by, but they started with different names than was they currently use yeah they at their nicknames
then he says that after a while that he and Vernon walked down town, they walked
that was about at one thirty in the morning
Then the sergeant suggests that he might have gone to eagles hall because a lie
people were going there,
and george says most likely.
But he doesn't remember
You can imagine that this sergeant is getting more and more frustrated. Just the way that detective ring was
but he's giving I'm reading questions. Oh, I'm sure you went here, but
he's not allowing these suspect to give him the answers. He's feeding the answers
so detective ring at some point, interrupts to say that he will be talking to Marvin roberts as he has a car that matches the description of a car seen at barnett street
While everyone knows that Marvin Roberts has a car, because most these people that are
involved. In this case they dont have cars but marvin
it does because he worked
as a wild fire fire fighter
would earn pretty good money, so he was driving a blue mercury topaz and, as
a fire fighter, especially in alaska. You have to travel
great distances, so he had to have a vehicle, I'm sure now
I kendrick wants him to describe what happened at barnett street. All george
we'll tell him is that he kicked the person a couple of times and that Kevin peace
kicked him first. So now he's kind of bringing in some one else, and he
back to saying he doesn't remember anything so there
The pressure becomes greater and he's being,
press for more information on the attack
He says he heard his foot.
Agrees. It was after kicking the victim and that the third kick actually
the ground and that's what hurt him real bad and
went down there
the latter part of the interrogation. He agrees
to himself that
eugene, cabin and another guy. So
it does is, it doesn't seem like starting kendrick is very successful at,
Out of him who this
The guy was then something
I just want to point out is all of the people that george has
named that night are
poorly different. Then all the people that you Jeanne has named that night. There
zero correlation between us
two stories and there
is zero continuity between their two stories between the facts they ve given. There is-
Nothing relate, above all between their statements,
kevin pieces interviewed detective.
Reed's him his rights and tells him
can have a lawyer present but pieces
is willing to chat with him Kevin pieces. Nineteen years old again
these teenagers are pre open, at least in the beginning.
respectful of law enforcement and tell it
and go the way. Anyone wants it to detective ring
ask him about eagles hall,
Kevin says, wasn't ever there, then he asked
about the part
at alaska motor. In an hour.
responds wasn't even there so this
this does sound suspicious right, I mean the detective
asking questions he's like was there man wasn't me here
It is one of these things where you can think well
he knows something's up, so he doesn't want to place himself at any.
Where there is a problem or
the other side of it is
He really wasn't there and, these being totally honest, detective ring
asks him about a fight that happened at barnett,
and ninth avenue and Kevin responded.
seen it on the news
ring says he knows that peace was with eugene and marvin, and
He says he wasn't. He was with his girlfriend jessica at fair view.
Her. He says he went there about eleven or twelve o clock and could not
definitively state which apartment number
or building and in that
he explains that the that he's not been there very many times, so he can't give them a building. Now he said,
spy saying oh, I think it was building d, but then it attacks
like no its buildings, one two three and four areas as well.
Make it was to ease they will. That's the one that burned up
because what must have been three then so it's
working out. It sounds like a horrible alibi right yeah. I might even think
do this guideline right, hey he's not able to tell
building or apartment
but on the other side,
the other teens could have been.
linking could have been out of it
isn't familiar with the place.
because he doesn't go there that often
yeah. It actually wasn't his girlfriend's place and
see. You just happened to be there and I don't think this is
kind of guy that was paying attention to where he was that she was probably meeting him outside than they were going into gather. That sounds like
excuse. But as we talk, I think it will become clear now. He said
he tells the detective we'll just
car you can talk to her and the
text says she's.
I'm going to lie for you. Kevin
as wall. She doesn't
after lie, she's not going to lie! She'll just tell you the truth and
The second says: well, don't depend on her
so then Kevin's asked for a lawyer and
to bring says he understands that because he
I know you're lying. So I know you want a lawyer because you ve gotten
thing for me: you're just going to keep lying. That of course,
peace, a little upset and then the detector
asks piece about the blood. That's on his shirt and he's
that's mine. I had a bloody knows
and then he's asked about the fifteen year old,
kid. That was beaten and he says I wouldn't beat up a fifteen year old kid and
to bring says, but you beat up your mom because there was a disaster,
once call earlier that night or denied of where
There was a disturbance at the house where Kevin and is
got into an argument, and now that
active as asserting that he beats his mother
when there was no evidence of that it was just hey, there's a big
heated argument. The cops are called
But meanwhile you gotta realise that Kevin.
For a lawyer
and the line of questioning doesn't stop.
All I really need to know at this point myself. I think everything that he's.
should be thrown out at this point so
detective ring insinuates that peace sexually assaulted the fifteen year old boy, peace at
We deny is doing that remember this is after he had already asked for a lawyer, it sort of like the detective his
in item
and this is all because of the boys. Pan
being down near his knees. So then,
nice being their says, he would have run away if he was guilty of attempted murder.
Ring said: don't worry, I'll, be interviewing jessica and her parents and commenced
Why do you have to enter of your parents and he said yeah
interviewing her and her parents aces whatever that's the end of the interview. Soap, witness
Well, it depends I mean, according to detective ring, he probably feels
like he has three or four people already lined up because they're not talking, but they know something.
how Marvin roberts
we ve already established as a car and in this
pays the way the police are looking at it. There is simple
the car seen they figure that these kids would need. A car to get,
they're so Marvin Roberts is definitely a personal interest here. They
Your view him robert disk,
I'm hanging out with some friends
aim Daniel Huntington and angelo Edmund.
They go to a dance which we assume as eagles hall there,
wedding reception, big old celebration and then, after that date
to the alaska motor in party. Now breaking this down, he said
that they were
eagles hall at about eleven thirty and then
and Dan actually
and Dan went eagles hall and they met angelo, add eagles hall, where the stance party was the detective, his teeth,
figure out where he was that night because he was driving around so he must know more information about going
with Dan is like, where did you pick dan up and why pick them up at eugene vents house?
of course, is a very interesting for the detective he's got a tie and now to his first aspect. Yes,
now he's like war. Ok,
was eugene there and robbers is telling him now. He wasn't there at the time
where was he and his
I dont know we'd neither
this new, where he was
then? He says that while they
at the hall they heard
that someone had been jumped outside had been attacked and robbed, which
I am sure that actually happened. There were molten
poor muggings and attacks. That happened that night John Hartman, just
happened to be the most high.
Dennis and fatal so
then he says that they left the hall about three thirty or forty em and went on to a party at the alaska motor in and they got
between form. For thirty, the detective is like waiting.
What were you really doing in between that time? Marvin said: well, we are really cruising so that he didn't have a specific time to give him because they were cruising,
and according him they were looking for girls, but
time line, is very loose. Robert disaster
his car- and he says- he's had it for about two years and that he gets
people asking for rights all the time and starting
hendrick comes in and says you don't seem
The kind of guy that would be involved with people who beat the daylights out of a guy and robert
responds no, I probably be breaking it up. That's pretty violent and he's a good kid
sergeant kendrick tells him that eugene has implicated. George and him in this crime
and robert says, give me a lie detector, because I wasn't there
and he admitted seeing Kevin eugene and george during
course of the night but denied
I'd hanging out with them. In fact he said that
never asked for a ride, eugene and george, both ass for rides, but he turned them down because they were drunk a hidden,
on to give a ride to anyway, that was drunk and so
kendrick says: why would they implicate you then my were they do that
and Robert says well maybe to get out of trouble, but he said he would never do that himself. Then detective geier,
suggests that roberts is kind of.
victim, since he was just giving rides and this all sort of happened without his
prior knowledge. Tat
to get him to open up a little bit like you know, hey, we can see how you might
of known was going to happen, you're just giving people rides and then
they get out of the car and then there is an argument or something, and then it goes down.
From there, and you didn't know, is going to happen and you didn't know what to do after two really dry.
this home, detective guy
tell them that they have tire prince and suggests that
They look at his tyres he's like
Why would they match? In other words
look at these two and when they match like they already know, they will then
You have no reason to say you weren't there because rob
keeps the nine they was ever over there. Now.
Word comes in while they're talking that the boy
that's on life support isn't going to make it this
he's going to die ends.
now the detectives are really really putting pressure on roberts
but he doesn't give in
that moment were there. Like will this?
turned into a homicide
start telling him is proven your car. Was there
ring comes back in,
starts in with
boy, was sexually assaulted and insinuates at robbers know something about this and rob
keep saying he doesn't
only anything about this. The detector
art giving up and then-
that now our are using this you didn't know what can happen there saying
the others, have already talked navy.
They told us what you
that night what you were involved with they said your own
minimally involved. So if you just tell us what happened, we
clear. All this up, robert
he's getting really upset me saying: I'm innocent, I'm scared because
innocent and he tells detective.
To talk to Dan and Angelo and they say
we already have. Of course they have right. So, despite
The enormous pressure on him roberts
contains is innocence and
actually says he really hopes that boy pulse through he's, going to pray for him well
what any murderer would say right well, remember the other saying that will in the interim
The thing about marvin
story for the night, is that he was at this dance hall, where
wedding reception was going on
and there are multiple people that witnessed him. There
at around one thirty, which is the suspected time of the murder or the attack.
None of these people are questioned by the investigators.
They will come up a later and court, so he really
it does have a pretty solid alibi. The detectives of also
his record up and theirs
really nothing to speak of their minor. Can
someone
He also admits having a speeding ticket. I think, but that's it. So all the people
they ve been looking at these fairbanks for
he's the one with really
nothing to speak of on his record, and I think there
Trying to use him
as hey, you ve, never really been in trouble. Why get your
often trouble now. You can help us out you'll be in a better
it's down the road? So this,
went down in october
of ninety ninety seven october, eleventh on october twelfth
these four arrested, as
before they had all play basketball together and it was a picture them altogether that the detectives had.
that they were using the kind of show hey. We know,
friends. We know you would probably all back each other up, also after
This all went down and they essentially have confessions from to the fair means, for they end up talking and they all
I agree that they are going to fight.
declare their names and they won't take any
kind of deal they are going
to stand together on us again, their friends.
They know each other there on the basketball team, I'm sure they do look out for each other, but they're not that tight.
and for them to come together and say, I think something's
who is happening here, let's not say anything, let's fight this little telling
and I was always wondering why,
they were twisting. These
these four together, especially marvin who had the card I just assumed. Well so what he has a car, but there was
another witness named Harlow alston
claims to have seen another attack from a distance and all the attacker.
Jump into a car and take off, and I think that's really thee.
The icing on the cake for the investigators to
wrangle these for up because they need
a car and they need
did the attackers and this all fits together perfectly for them. This podcast can
did by progressive a leader and
insurance. Welcome aboard to care free boating,
here. We don't worry about the what ifs, because we explore with progressive boat insurance for as little as one hundred dollars per year for a basic liability policy. Progress
also offers a variety of other coverages and can help you cover repair costs when you need it and with disk
like Malta policy safety courses responsible driver in more your minds can really float free crews on
where do progressive dot com to get a quote today and see if you could save progressive
salty insurance company and affiliates rates and discounts not available in all states are situations what's gonna
over the time here october fifteenth ninety ninety, seven, a grand jury brings down charge
of murder for the four and
Ninety ninety nine there will be three
trials, so they'll have to
separate trials, and then one trial for two of them at once. What will
from here, though, as we just want to kind of take you through what the
evidence was how that pertain
to this whole question of innocence here, because it would take ten years
yours from the time they went to trial,
the alaska innocence project got involved, and I think in this
case. It starts off with questions about racism
she's about whether the investigation was done well because
when you say that someone committed murder, then
question is. How do you know that in this case it's really simple? We have the detective
is questioning these young guys. There are strong
telling them. We have you,
shoeprints in blood there were
have your shoe print on their face on the victims face. We have
or car placed at the scene
we have a witness that saw you for there. But what
They really have just in well
This is where I really
into this case
I was literally bias. Looking for all the reasons why these guys are guilty.
I wasn't even looking at the advice
The gaiters overzealous nurse I wasn't looking into the
anything wrong with the trials I was merely going for. Why are these
eyes guilty, because the
prosecutors in the investigators. Still
the days were up and down. They got the right guys.
So I thought well, they must have some compelling evidence here, the boot print well, first off there wasn't a bloody shoe print anywhere honesty
so they were straight up lying to eugene and police, are allowed to lie to you and say whatever they want to you during an interview or prevent any time they're alive.
To lie to your face, no matter what the boot prints on the victims face compared to georgia's
friend. Well, the investigators take a picture of it
and below it up and have it as
transparency during trial and they match it up, but
like a lot of things. There isn't a scientific technique here. This is just eyeballing, it kind of like
bite mark impressions ere, you know, sometimes they look. Ok, but for the most part does not,
scientific here, and if you
turn image enough,
Is it really what you start with anymore? Not exactly you had the blood
Kevin pieces jacket, that was his blood,
he had a bloody knows, and he said
teenager, so he doesn't wash his clothes like he should there wasn't any tire marks the
witness that says he saw them they're taking off in a car
four hundred and fifty feet away
in the middle of a cold night and I think the guy
I wanted to help.
Now he's not so sure what he saw and now he's listed as a witness for the
listens project, meaning,
his story has changed. So
What are we have as what you asked me? Thou would be joy
making a off handed comment in a hospital room about
oh, you should have seen the other guy and you have
eugene saying, while I'm
I've been there, because if my buddy shoeprints was there, I might have been, there
I would even call those confessions. I thought that they actually said
Oh yes, I was there. I absent
We did it, but when you read
statements.
That's not exactly how goes and they offer
gene and marvin deals.
Hey. You only serve a few years, maybe
five years he tell us.
Happened in utah
evidence on on the other to and they turn these
he'll down offered five years or life sentences pretty
but I have a really poor opinion about,
please deals, I think plea deals only help the guilty and they screw the innocent. But these guys turn them
the deal down
what are we have I'd, say,
lauded nuthin.
Our low all seen it turns out was poor.
far away he
standing there. Looking over at this attack, he was four hundred and fifty,
feet from the scene
and then he was also drunk and high. I'm not
He makes the best witness and I think that's what that's really
that developed was. He was being assured
by law enforcement by prosecutors that he was really
helping dissolve this crime and I think that
where this started, but then later he realised that this was a big mistake. I d
as much as I could, because I thought surely somewhere there is
something that we can really
point out and say walk years. Something to look at this is why may
one or more of these guys was involved in this attack on John harmon, who
it up dying within thirty
hours of his attack, but all I could find work
is that, at one point, eugene vent told the detective that he
might have given the victim gum and they,
and a small pack of gun at the scene, but this is something that is
wait it out as being significant. Well, let's told eugene your bloody footprints there, so you had to have been there and you-
and says well, I must have been there if you found my footprint, what who gave him the gum
Maybe I gave him the gum. I don't.
I dont put a lot of stock in this gum statement because you can
put any stock in some of these other statements, just because there happens to be a package gum somewhere
I mean they're. So many leading question so many statements about this. I don't put a lot of stock into it
not a smoking gun to me in my
b to other people, but if three
or for guys are pummeling another dude. You would think that there would be
a little more physical evidence there. Besides some random stick ago,
it said that there was no leading statement in regard to the gum, but I have a problem with this whole gum thing, because if you're going to
tax somebody. Why would you offer them gum right? This is just
since it doesn't feel right it. It doesn't make any sense to me. They also point out that george freeze dried
his so called confession is the one
Who comes up with the story of how John hartman was beaten to death? They say that way
His doing he's the one who came up with that. He described
how he was attacked. But if you actually read the transcript, he doesn't give a detailed statement. He says
that he might have kicked him twice and then the third time he kick? He struck the ground.
not a very good description. A good description would be
it was myself any three other guys. We approach the victim
exchanged unheeded words. We jumped m this guy attack
damn first than I did this than there was nothing like that. It was made
I kicked him twice and then I kicked the ground the third time that is de false confession that
people are looking at now, whether you say that's a real confession or false confession: those are the words
he used and where
dna evidence started exonerating people in the first two
people exonerated up to
sixteen to twenty percent of them, that were exonerated on dna evidence had given false confessions. So that's between thirty two and forty people said I did this crime
and that's people that sign statement, saying
brutally murdered or raped, or whatever gave graphic details have been exonerated, but this guy says
I take him twice and kicked the ground. This is the the confession see
to me. He never names the victim. He never is concerned
simply linked to this victim. He
merely saying that he kicked someone a couple times I mean he could have
the grounds in another incident. We have no idea, but it just doesn't feel legitimate here actually
later on
say that he was rustling, whether friend somebody tool
totally unrelated, and that's how he heard his foot so tat. He might have kicked
sound and his friend and whatever one there are wrestling. But I don't know it's
It's just really weak
to say that when I first read his statement in the hospital, I was
whoa. Dad does not sound good at all, but then I think back
John hardman was telling people he was taking lsd that night, and that was
true, either.
There are saying they were on drugs. They were saying they're doing this, oh, you should have seen the other guy. I I really think,
this is just ten
age boys trying to sound cooler more hard than they really are
all you need to know about these trials, that occurred was that it,
really rested on the woman who heard the cries? Who was
at the women shelter and then
hello olsen, who witnessed
some other guy being attacked by what
determine was the same group of boys
that attacked the other kid so you're. So much
we tax that night by the same group and one
ended up in murder. Now, when it comes to
Carlos statement
do we even know he actually saw. Anything in here is the problem,
He says he saw an attack from over four hundred.
Fifty feet away and can recognize people
but I'm wondering if he saw-
an attack at all it with you
just trying to be helpful. People do want to be helpful.
Especially when
thing as serious as a murder.
Happens and their home town. There told a wheel
They got these guys. We
we know who they are and what they did we just now,
if you to tell
that you saw it and if you ever told that by
an investigator
they already have em. They don't need your statement
not trying to tell you not to talk to cops, I'm saying that
you didn't see anything you don't give them anything you have. They can talk to
to giving false confessions. Why couldn't they talk?
poland, to giving false witness statements
I'm sure. You didn't see this, because this would really help us. It happens all the time, our
oh in some of the other witnesses, will be told that
We already have other witnesses that play some their wages
what more ammo here now
I was the only guy on the stands saying he saw anything. So, let's be clear,
every bit of evidence, they collected they tested and nothing connected
any of these four men to John hartman,
you ve already spoken in the past, about witnesses who
I mean how reliable are they?
you take someone who's, drunk and high, and four hundred and fifty plus feet away me. We,
stammered the distance, because luckily I do too
is measured. The distance, which I think is awesome gazette had that helps, but then they decided to take the jurors
out onto the street in the middle of the day and do a little
experiment which that doesn't work because
it's the middle of the day and everyone sober so yeah yeah. I would have liked,
if they had brought them there at one thirty in the morning,
hi really drunk and then had them, watches seen foreigners fifty feet away and then describe it later. That would
more relevant test,
be more relevant. Yes, anyway,
the prosecutors are successful. They get convictions
for each of the four we ve already
scribe now shoddy this whole cases at some point,
fucking within ten years. Here the alaska
since project enters the picture and the
make an agreement with Marvin robbers and george freeze to investigate their case
though they start going through an interviewing everybody and one of the
people? I think they find that's very significant and today,
and twelve is william homes.
william homes hasn't been mentioned at all. During this entire nigh
They don't know em nobody's friend
with them
William, has a very interesting story. William, had
happens to be serving time for an unrelated cry
He doesn't know the ferber
four from anyone,
but he remembers a beating happening that night on that street,
when and he is willing to sign an affidavit and swear to be out here,
doesn't know these guys, he has it
no connection here and he's
Gaining nothing from this statement
He saying he knows where happened, that night
and who really killed this boy.
william have was a drug dealer. He started with pot
and then he says at some point. He was
robbing a house- and he found cocaine and started dealing, a cocaine too
he wasn't much into gangs or anything like that. He was his own boss
he made up his own rules according to him and one
The people he ran around with was a guy by the name of jason wallace. Now
morning to homes. He said that
night they were driving around in, they were planning to beat up. Somebody
and he says something they would do, but I think they
indicated they were going to beat up a native.
These guys are looking for alaskan natives to go rough up. That's there.
Ass time, their bullies and
it's pretty races to when you think about it. This is wild night too, so
I don't think this would have stood out too much to anyone and at a pair
I really didn't, because the cops work called until hours after the beating
as alleged to have occurred according to him. He stops the car and
jason, wallace regime brown, marquez pennies
and show our johnson jumped out and attacked john hartman, he
said that it was jason Wallis who face dumped him and that
why he believes that Wallis is the one that action
delivered what would be the killing blows. I saw
interview with the fair banks for when they were incarcerated. They were asked if they knew
Homes or any of these guys, and why
I said yeah. Actually, I've heard of homes of Madame whatever saigon alike, em
we don't get along? So
for them to not even get along what
Homes is motivation to clear these guys.
Well according to the naysayers
we say that homes is already serving a life sentence.
Oh he's just screwing with the system at this
point when he's come forward. Anyone
that's familiar with the case. Could
given as much information as homes sure, but for him to come forward and sign it
affidavit its mind boggling to me that he would want
to associate himself of this crime, and it's my
I'm going to me that the justice system wouldn't want to vat is story,
when they don't have much evidence with their current guys. You would think that the-
Adding of the evidence would happen before you're having too
prove it in a court of law, but
case. There wasn't
any bedding
and they didn't really need to prove it in a court of law because they got their guilty convictions anyways and
we're going over the evidence and how they too
today, and they couldn't fighting linking
suspects to the victim. I also
to address the whole.
accusation of sexual assault on John hartman now remember:
I found him. He had his power
down around his knees and early.
We talked about how he was wearing chris stones pants and they were corduroy pants. They were very baggy, it's very
possible that
and he was in a fight- and he was being attacked- that his
I just came down during
its attack, a rape kit was conducted
on John hartman, but there was no evidence of sexual assault, but remember
detectives are insinuating that there was a sexual assault and they were.
asking these guys. Did you do this or do you know?
think about this and they kept denying it
What turns out that from
all available evidence that job.
Hartman was never sexually assaulted, twenty twelve
this when william homes com
forward as a witness and says that the murder was by four of his friends and then in twenty,
fourteen is
when our low orson as recanted his statement, but the brother of John hartman Chris Kelly
He was told by the prosecutors we got. There
guys and care.
Will even visit these guys in prison. One of them
our banks forces I'm sorry.
I didn't know that was your brother and, of course, care
It takes this as an admission of guilt, but this state
and to me is very vague,
I'm sorry, I didn't know it was your brother. Does it mean
I'm sorry, I didn't know I
your brother or
I mean I'm sorry, I didn't know
your brother was the victim in this case, and it
you're. The brother of the victim, I know,
which way you're gonna take it, because your heart
your soul. Your emotions are very much invested in this, and the prosecutors had been telling him. We got the right guys, so
what else is heated believe at this point, the sum
of two thousand fifteen marvin roberts is released on parole, also
in two thousand fifteen due to the efforts of these women,
is coming forward. You
our low olsen, who rick
answered his testimony you have.
we am homes who's coming out in saying I know who did it? It's
guys over here when the court took away.
but all this they decide
that a jury.
in two thousand fifteen, probably wouldn't be able to convict these men there just isn't
evidence.
it really shows you how this case was built around
our low alston,
really all they had. I mean it's one
thing to lie to a person that you're talking to and say we have your
at the scene. We happy we have.
These people saw you there?
You know your friends have already turned on you. That's good
a freer little interrogation, but why-
comes to a court of law, and things are on the up and up
they didn't have anything on these guys so december of twenty fifteen, a judge vacated,
convictions of the four men. Now, what happens
They created deal
they say is we're going to.
Dismiss your convictions. Ok and you're gonna go free, but you cannot sue any governmental
entity involved in this case as part
steel there
to get Marvin roberts to come back in and agree to the deal, because he's already on parole he's all
free, so they can't use the will lead
ago thing here, because the
actually saying we're. Gonna vacate your conviction, but this takes time.
six months to a year
if you want out right now. Will you
I have to agree not to sue us, so
Of course, these four
the deal and
they're all released just an already brought up Chris Kelly who's, the brother of John hartman, and he was-
pretty upset about this
and he's trying to see it from every angle. He saying if their innocence,
If you believe that all of us are now, I don't see why you could even justified doing this to them and if their guilty
I don't see how you can justify making a deal, so in other words, if they didn't do it
then, why did they put him through all this stuff
and why are you saying that you cannot sue because you, you ve, literally lost twenty years of your life just about and then if they are guilty, why are you cutting them a deal they murdered? Somebody took Chris kelly
welcome to the true crime genre because the
is the inconsistencies that we look at and analyze every day and you just like you bud, I'm confer
used an flabbergasted myself arloeux olsen, who had recanted his testimony, who had been
an instrumental and getting convictions of the four originally he died.
taking his own life in prison in July of twenty seventeen, the fair
four have now all filed lawsuits, but they said they wouldn't sue. It's not that simple,
and this is something that we ve talked with people about at length, which is when you ve been wrongfully convicted
and the state comes to you and says: ok, we'll let you out, but you can't do anything back to us. There is
actually saying they can do
sorts of harm to you and nothing
will ever be done about it, and I know that
people who say well, but they were freed and
now everyone knows that they were involved. That's not true. We
Had people writing in some of them pretty serious, saying I think they did it.
kay, I still don't see the evidence of that, but there are people still believe that their murderers, that's not just
need go away because the state cut a deal. Sometimes people think well. They bowed to pressure
there is concern of racism here or in
the activity to the native alaskan. Its political yet
Medical move right, so
already tarnished their names
Now I know you could point say some of these guys were already doing criminal activities whatever. But, let's be honest, you can't just
convict someone because they may have committed a crime at some point by convicting them.
something that you don't even know if they did just because you ve
it is a crime. Ones doesn't mean you can peg them on something else later that they didn't do
I mean there's no evidence here
They were involved in any way with the death of John hartman. If you just wreathed
the transcripts of the interviews that the detectives dead with these four. I think that should be put
convincing in and of itself that they worked really.
hard, as the detective said he's like we've been at this for sixteen hours. We know what we're doing we. We know you were involved. This was really just. Let's just get this solved and move on. I
truly have gone to the point where I feel that in the court of law
and in a trial in
sense or gill has zero to do with anything in its all about
who makes the better argument who fought more? Who got the better experts on the stand and innocence be damned in a case?
like this prosecutors can say. Well, we do
everything right, so you can't say that there were,
any wrong doing, even if their innocent, we charge them
according to the letter, the law we didn't do anything wrong. Therefore, there's nothing to be said
and we cannot be held accountable for people that get themselves locked up.
This is a very decent
it's fine case, because there's no
evidence to show who committed this crime
There is no evidence to suggest that, though, ever be able to get there.
while parties, because research,
have the prosecutor saying we did the right thing. We had the right people
this doesn't make any sense to me. It's as though, the death of
on hartman will continue
to be without justice, and I think that's it
terrible thing for the people that supported the fair banks for and witness
come out and region
in their families, theirs
all victory there, but really at the heart of this
there's a young guy that lost his life on a night where he thought, hey, I'm having the time of my life is life was cut short,
and there is no one to hold responsible for this- the people that they had convicted there.
Fictions are taken out william homes despite coming out in saying. I know who did this. These are the guys you want to look at two of them. Are
even imprison prosecutors,
can't use way, am homes is affidavit to pay,
secured anyone in this case they just don't
the evidence. We already said that they tested all the evidence that the fairbanks forehead and none
the ties them to this crime, so they have
In addition to that, they have not.
that suggests anyone
else at all in the eu in question
wallace.
That he had immunity. It wouldn't talk about it
He wouldn't say that he remembered anything from that night in every case,
I can never definitively say. Oh, I know
actually what happened, because I
there that I wasn't there at the scene errand
I just collect the evidence analyzed
the best we can. Can I do
Ben actively say their fair banks forward?
Not do this now, but
I definitively say there is anything tat
them to this crime. No, I can't, when you look at
beyond reasonable doubt. I
they don't know how these jurors found them guilty. I I just
It does not make sense to me so
Obviously they were under represented. The prosecutor held all the cards.
whether or not prosecution did anything wrong. I don't know, but when these guys
are found guilty on deeds,
charges and the lack of evidence that they had, I can't
think that the system and the process worked correctly and
Those of you who are wonder,
about the effectiveness of eyewitness, testimony just ask yourselves
Would you feel comfortable having a man who is legally drunk
and really high, and witnessing something you did from foreigners.
fifty feet away over a football field
giving testimony against you.
the.
When you're scrolling through social media. How can you tell what's real anything can be posted on line without being fact checked, but if you heard about the secret to permanent weight loss, wouldn't you give it a follow
Tommy sucker brought founder of the trendy, high fibre effect or diet. Hasta la
followers, including megan, kelly and supermodel olivia cocoa, but allegation
of troubling side effects with the diet began to surface and people started a question: is she selling powder or power Emily jealous a popular fashion, influence her saw these allegations and put the diet on blast to her own large social following she launched a crusade to x
those tanya any the f factor diet. What was once an online feud escalated into the real world resulting in threats, lawsuits and a whole lot of.
Emma from wondering comes a new series about wealth, wellness and influence listened a fed up on it
what podcasts, amazon, music, spotify or you
less than early an ad free by joining wondering plus in the wonder YAP?
Transcript generated on 2022-08-27.