This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by peacock bridge did the original limited series, a friend of the family, on the story of the Jan proper kidnappings from again Tosca executive producer of the act and candy and direct producer eliza hip and comes a dark compelling look at the harrowing story through new lands produce which amber burke herself this theory stars anna pack, when jake lacy college hanks LEO Tipton and mackay grace stream? Now only on peacock, I don't
a lot of time to sit down to read a book, a noise on the go going from one festival or made up to another and audible offers me an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Although I think I stick to mainly the aea, thrillers in true crime section as an audible member, I can choose one title a month, including the best sellers and new releases audible members get access to a growing selection of audio books. Audio originals and podcast are included with your membership. You can listen. All you want in mortgage added. Every month, Gillian flynn is going to be putting out a new book soon. All the news about sharing penny. You might want to go back and give gone girl or listen. Let audible
help you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash guida, BP or text Judah BP, two five hundred five hundred: that's audible, dot com, slush judah, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days or more time, audible, dot, com, slash, gaeta beauty. Welcome back to them program. You were on several times before.
And I'm sure a good portion of the audience has heard those episodes has listened to them. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and talk about the new books? First of all, thanks again for having me back, you ve been very patient. Your listeners have been very patient. I know this is a lot of information for people to digest. My name is too, was henry horn. A study and teach the art and science of reading and writing and I was studying the zodiac killer, letters and music articles and books by people by robert gray, smith and While I was doing that these original case files from the different police departments in the fbi became available. So I studied those as well and I couldn't help noticing that the books that robert grace I had written were mostly false and
by following up the trail of falsehoods in those books, I came right straight to person who had all the knowledge he needed to write the zodiac killer letters and he turned out to have hen writing which is a perfect. As for the handwriting on the original zodiac killer letters so There are three books, people can get and read. From amazon dot com, the first one. it suggest you read, is called the great zodiac killer hopes of nineteen eighty six, it's a chapter by chapter page by page debunking robert grace missile original book. That book is there pretty much the only source people have had about the zodiac carcase, he had access to these same documents: regional police department, files, f b. I find There is no doubt about that, and in that book we compare his book to the documents he said he used
and we can see where he has dislike I didn't lied. The second book. Once we see here, one of the biggest lies he tells in his book. Zodiac is about the authenticity of those famous letter was written to the newspapers So the question becomes, he really wrote them ass, a killer didn't write them who wrote them. So. My second book is called the great, yet killer hopes of nineteen sixty nine were weak here. The letters to the actual police department fight, in newspaper articles and from that we build up or profile of someone who could have written the letters and take a look Couple different suspects and one of those suspects turns out to have
handwriting identical to the handwriting on their original zodiac killer letters there's a third book which is probably pretty boring for most people. It's the book I set out to write which just examines grace miss birth is the ecb letters, the newspaper articles, the movies that were made sets all that in contacts with the overall american pop culture of the twentieth century,. there's a lot of comparison with the site killer movies. That came out before and after zodiac. the new zodiac movie gray, psmith based his book very closely on the style of a book called the boston strangler by Gerald frank
an excellent, true crime book, which was made into a highly fictional eyes movies during henry fonder internet curtis site that that's a little bit more of a boring, but for most most true crime fans, although it's it's it's so pretty well, and that in pretty good reviews. So you can read them one at the time. I suggest you start with great zodiacal our hopes in nineteen eighty six, while speaking of that book, maybe we should get into robber gray, psmith himself, what you tell us about who this guy is in. Perhaps what he's not really clean about in regards to his own personal history, the Story he tells in his own book and when you see the movie by David Fincher stirring Jake John hall and john hall, had a lot to do with getting that movie made. He was a big gray smith fan story is that grey smith this nerdy quiet cartoonist. He was just a cartoonist in illustrator who worked at this.
Big time sensationalist newspaper call the san francisco chronicle. and that the chronicle receiving these letters from the sky calling himself the zodiac any sent in some cryptographic for readers to try to decode and that this robber grace myth character, became obsessed with this and sort of taught himself to be an investigator reporter. And put all the pieces together and came up with a the most likely suspect in the martyrs. That's the story. The real robert gray smith was more than just a cartoon. He was someone who got his first job at a newspaper when he was twelve years old, he's a remarkable person, his job at the newspapers where he worked was in what was called the production department in that meant that he not only drew illustrations and maps he he created maps
In our tunes, but he also would take photographs from the photographers he would take. I'm already comic strips coming in from the from the artist who created the comic strip, scammer ready copy of advertisements. He would take them into the dark room and he would photograph them with a special kind of a camera called a static camera stay
camera that you had a special lens, so it wouldn't distort the image any use special lithographic film. It changed everything to black and white for printing in a newspaper in in he also processed other film in the darkroom, and he would take these films of these objects. He would shoot and in the publishing business we call this stripping. We don't it's all done on the computer now, but take pieces of fellman and tape them together to make up pages that would go to the printing plant to etch the plates to help print the newspaper that was called the production department. That was what he did and then on his nights off. He liked the moonlight as an investigative reporter he'd been trying to do this for years and years and years at newspapers like the chronicle and before he worked at the chronicle. He worked
Open tribune in oakland those were union shops, so he couldn't be given by airlines. Often any stories he came up with he had to turn those over to the editor was most newspapers. It's. The editor is kind of the author of the article and less in particular stories. The report has given a byline, so he had misled readers about his job at the chronicle in the book he specifically stay it's that someone else was photographing these letters and other pieces of evidence as they came into the chronicle. But that's not true. Robert basement was the person who is actually doing that job and coincidence. Enough. These loud is always came in on days when he was working. They never came in on his days off, but he never tells people that and
as we get into it. We see why he would keep that a secret. There's, probably there's a need there to keep some distance so that he doesn't look like he's tied to closely to this case. Well in the question becomes, why would he we feel that was a problem. As we read along, we begin to realise that he lies about the authenticity of the letters. The claim is that the evidence collected by police, proved that the person writing letters was involved in the murders. Only someone who had been involved in the murders would know this information. The truth. is that a lot of the information in the letters was wrong, but it wasn't right, don't only wrong the correct information and the incorrect information. All came from certain pages from these police reports
And that implies that the person writing the letters had access to those documents, at least some of them and in fact the letters often state information that was true, but the real killer or killers could not have known and when grace myth wrote his book, he lied about a lot of, and so the question becomes well if he knew he needed to lie about the authenticity of the letters. He must have known that the letters were some kind of a hoax, some kind of a fake and that might be One reason why he would cover up his true job at these newspapers, because the profile he bill of the person. Creating the letters is someone who as training and access to this kind of equipment that robert grace matthews at his job every day. Can you give an example from
one of the letters, that's that we know not to be true. Based on the evidence based on the police reports, well, let me start with the first They came in there had been the shooting of the two kids. Unlike herman road christmas time of nineteen stay too high school kids no letters, no phone calls then July. Fourth, nineteen. nine. Another young couple did not really romantic couple darlene Mike Michel were shot sitting in apart car in the parking lot it blocks brings park. And I suspect, is arrested, and but for that murder a few days later, a letter is three copies of one letter arrived at the chronicle the san francisco exam. and the Blair house times herald in the letter writer says. I am the murderer of these people and to prove it states some facts in the let her he makes a big. He says I'll stay facts it only
and the police know, but he mentions, for example, that tin shots were fired, at lake herman road, well, tin, empty shell, casings were found at the scene of the crime, but that fact had been published in a newspaper, the Valais whoa news chronicle published by the same company who published the times herald this was an afternoon edition. It was not distributed I listened times herald. He claim to know what the victims were wearing at blue rock springs park, but it doesn't mention knowing anything about what the victims were wearing on lake herman road. That's important because there were suspects in that murder who did know, but they were wearing. Does it mention the fact that the number of shots pointedly, fired at blue ox beings park was different than what was reported in the newspapers, but the most important thing about that first letter is the facts. He states
and actual words he uses and words that he missed spells let her come from one very particular document. The report tight that night by richard hoffman, which happen was a young police office. He started out working as an undercover narcotics officer working the solano county in bali who had a joint task force for narcotics and by Ben valerio and hoffman joined the forces. I started off as an undercover cop. He was the only police officer to type his report that night before he went home all the other reports from the la police department's la county sheriff's office. They were not typed until june eighth or after the person who wrote that letter obviously had a copy of that report. So did a reporter at the san francisco chronicle.
but there were two items about that report that the reporter, got wrong or left out and the second letter that the letter was published in the newspapers. As everybody knows, they publish d, the crypto grams, the killer or the letter writer demanded a print the next day, the chief of police in Valais whoa challenged the letter writer to write another letter and provide some more facts, because he said that you know this doesn't prove much immediately responded. That day, though the letter Postmarked in arrived on Monday august forests, the second letter was about lonely about electric gun site in all this stuff, but the letter writer claimed to be as very specific suspect who was detained, leaving the scene of the crime. By
police, but he was immediately released its obvious as a kid named Andy, Nicholas junior in his day had arrived and Mike apparently mentioned them. They came in right before caught that the police arrived about twenty minutes after the shooting took place, it was obvious and he didn't do it, but the funny thing is The newspapers never mentioned anything about Andy, his being stopped. He couldn't have been the killer and the real killer couldn't have known anything
bout him, but the person running the letters claimed to be Andy, so that tells us in addition to the and another fact, the newspaper article in the chronicle had stated everything accurately from half men's report happened, got some facts wrong. For example, hoffman picked up seven empty shell casings, a total of nine were found. Hotham picked up, seven, the article in the chronicle reported seven shots had been fired, etc, etc, etc.
half men put in his report that might Michaud said that the what his window, the passenger side of the car, was rolled down. The two shooter walked up to the car on the passenger side to started. Shooting the chronicle article had reported that mike had said that the killer tore open the door and police did find a set of fingerprints on that door, handle the pass into door, handle darlings car and they believed for at least for several months it. They probably belonged to the killer. But the second letter comes in and correct that it responds directly to the one hour. Well that was in the chronicle that mention that and said I did not taro. I did not open the door. The window was rolled down already, which is exactly how its worded and husbands report, and the second thing is. He claims to be the suspect, Andy, nickel, honest junior. When we know he can't possibly be the killer and the killer and possibly have known about him, doesn't make sense. You can follow the evidence he can say well. This report was available.
before that letter was written and erroneous information contained in the letter also exists in the report. That's what you're stating Right and when in you, I showed in the block you word for word and in their own homes, inside and in the books. The footnotes are clickable links that take you to a free website. Where you can see the documents. I can't I can't publish them in the book. I can't charge money for these documents. I don't own the copyrights, but you can go to the free website. See the documents comment, ask questions if you find some more information posted, it's totally free and but we see that a report at the chronicle and the person writing the zodiac letters both had a copy of half my report and the two zodiac letters are written in red direct response to that article in the chronicle. Not the newspaper coverage in general,
to that. It's almost like the person writing the letters is calling attention to the fact that, MR reporter, you got a couple of things wrong in a new overlooked that there was a suspect who was temporarily arrested, snow accident, then that the letter was male doubt when it was. I dont think so. Andy was released a couple of hours later, it's obvious. He than the killer, but a couple of weeks later, the night that men landed on the moon July, the twentieth been villa reao that the head of this little narcotic squad he had been observing and informative. his name David, while he ought who was indicted in absentia for murdering a snitch was never put on trial. He suspected been some other murders. He he would arrest people
in aunt's house people would go into art house, they would buy drugs, they would leave. The l'oreal would pick them up, they would have the drugs in their pockets. This went on for about a year ago. I was a the best informant that had, and so the night of July, the twentieth, this young man, donald worn porter in his friend james philips, flowers, they knock on, ought door. Those there's no answer, so they start to leave and the arrest them now what's funny about that is built, I had no probable cause. If I wasn't home these gentlemen could not about any drugs. So why did he arrest them, which indicates that there were some kind of a set up? He searches, porthos pockets. He finds a p, thirty, eight which is a type of pistol that might have been used in the shooting. A blue ox brings part.
and in his report he says that porter turned to his friend flowers and told him. I'm gonna be worked for murder. Now either porter really said or valerio and flower of us both lied to John lunch when they got to the valet who police station. If, They both lied. That indicates they ran on some kind of a plot to frame porter for me, Darlene ferrin, if they're telling the truth that would indicate that porter was either guilty or he knew he was being set up for this murder and according to the description that make me feel good. best gaiters. Once again, the suspect couldn't have been guilty causes port. It was way too tall and wait. You skinny now his peter
eight was sent to the state crime lab in sacramento to be tested against the bullets taken from the crime scene in the victim's bodies. The results of that report have not been released There are about four pages that we can see or flagrantly missing from all these documents that have been released and that's one of them the results of that report, but he doesn't match the description of the shooter given by the victim. So I dont think you, his shooter, but he seemed to know as soon as he was popped by villa reale that he was going to be booked for that murder anyway, so he must have suspected he was being framed or attempted to be framed. In a few days later, the first zodiac killer a letter arrives. That point to this other settlement and the second letter that comes out two days later. It points to this other so called suspect. So it's either an attempt to help
porter get out of jail or- and we don't know we don't know for sure. When porter got out of jail. If you in jail when the letters arrived. You know that proves you didn't write the letters. So that might have been the reason what he was eventually released. We don't know exactly what day, but its it there's. No evidence that that he did he murdered anybody. was somebody who was named by darlings friends as a friend of darlene, then one of darlings friend stopping I have been having an affair, but she didn't know that for sure and he, but he was arrested with this peace. Thirty eight in his pocket when they get back to the police station Read they really search, I mean he's had another pest whole stuck down an ivory johnson pistol stuck down in his underwear, so.
So it seems, like villa reale, knew that this guy was going to show up on our doorstep with a p thirty eight in his pocket that somebody was trying to set him up, and why would the police be involved in trying to frame somebody for darling's murder and in in the second book great zodiac killer, hooks nineteen sixty nine? We take a closer look at that as to why or why that might have happened. But it's interesting that graysmith the suspects he talks about in his book. None of them there's no chance any of them, murdered anybody, but the real suspects in these crimes. He pretends don't exist and porters, one of them porter, was actually arrested and booked for the murder of darlene, ferrin and griezmann, pretends that never happened and hence zodiac research.
where's across the board seem to nazi that either every movie, every documentary and every book and every website that you ve ever seen about the zodiac killer case, is all based on robert greatness book from nineteen eighty six called zodiac gray smithkline he got access to these police files or most of them in its true. We can see that he quotes firm extensively. He lies about crucial details, but he definitely got access to them. The interesting thing is that never happens. True crime, authors never get access to those documents. How in the world did he get access to these documents? That that's a big unanswered question? He never answered and everything that anybody's ever written is all based on it. They ball trusted him. Everybody has trust in him, and even though these documents have made their way
to the internet. Since about two thousand ten, even the people who publish them on their websites. I've talked to them debated with them on their website. It's obviously be they're, not read them, or a couple of these guys have actually lied about them too, but mostly they never bothered to read them. You know it's, it's it's a couple thousand pages it I'm the who sordid the pages and coal hated them and put them together and put him in chronological order. Nobody else ever did that and far as I know, I'm the only person who ever really read them from start to finish. Everybody has trusted graysmith everybody in the evolvement burn. Could this also be a fact where they just like to copy them and put them up for others to see here? Are more documents related to the zodiac case, but not really dig into them? Yeah
because you ve had make more effort on your show, he's only one whose agreed to be on your show. That tells you a lot in my experience with MIKE he's he's honest and sincere, but he he gets everything from graysmith book and he has published a lot of files and I've gotten them from MIKE it's obvious. You know I've gently pointed out a mike. I got this from your website. Did you not read it he always shares everything he finds, which is more than I can for the other guys, but beneath he himself is still his own suspect right fits the profile, the zodiac as presented in and greatness, but the problem is that is a purely fictional
after created by robert Graysmith. Well, let's get into that. I know we're jumping ahead because we're talking about the palestine murder, but that's a well known fact that the entire profile of this killer seems to be built around someone supposedly seen walking down a street from where palestine was murdered. The cabbie. Well, let's start with the two kids murdered, unlike herman road, the only witnesses there were witnesses, it is the first myth. These kids were None of these people were murdered on lubbers lines that parking area phoenicia pumping station along the highway between the lay laotian venetian very busy road. They were parked right next to the highway lots of witnesses job I saw them part there when witness job. I saw a second car park next to them
and about a quarter of a mile down the road, he heard what he thought was a gunshot and but there were no survivors and to give police a description of the shooter when the second shooting at blue rock springs park. In july of nineteen sixty nine mike Michaud survived, he gave a description of the shooter to police. That description happens to match. Darlene parents, ex husband, Jim Philips, crabtree, to an absolute tee. For some reason, police didn't even bother looking for him, in january when they got a tip from a psychic he's he's by far the best suspect in that murder, 'em and in MIKE's description fits him to a t. Then the two kids were stabbed at the lake north of napa lake berryessa. That guy wearing a disguise. He had a hood shaped like a grocery bag over his head like a kind of season.
the eye it look like he had brown wavy, hair, big stocky guy, a lot bigger guide than that I described by MIKE Michaud to the extent that could give it corruption. It matches the description of a guy who was also a kind of peeking at some girls on the beach. Earlier that day that description matches park, ranger dennis land to an absolute tee, the composite. Catch that was made based on the girls descriptions fits land to a perfect e. There's, no proof that that guy committed stabbing Then, when the driver was shot in october, there were three tina europe is in a house right across the street, had a pretty good view, the guy winning
out of the cab and was apparently to wipe his fingerprints from the door handles. He the apparently got in the cab, the left, rear passenger door got out of the cab right. We're passenger door then went in the passenger front door to try to around the caspian and cover up its fingerprints and things. They got a good look at him. They described a man about twenty five to thirty years old about a hundred and forty five pounds, five, eight to five nine, with short brown hair wearing having glasses. They call the cops and while the guy was still still messing around in the cab they the police, dispatch they headed to the scene. One version the story says they were told it. A negro male adult suspect that may be true might not be true, but a block north of the crime scene officers falcons elms,
saw a man because a kid said that the shooter took off walking north on cherry street towards the park and block north of washington. Street is jackson street, and the cops jackson and maple saw a guy who was about forty before Five years old, a couple inches taller about fifty or sixty pounds heavier with short blonde air and no glasses walking around the corner, the park, but they hated match description. They got over the radio, so they they just proceeded straight to the crime scene. So We know from their from folks description in the kids description that the guy that fuck saw on jackson and maple. We know he's not the shooter he's not the same guy that the kids saw messing around the cat. We know that, but graysmith lies about these descriptions in his book.
You sound like it was the same guy because he puts his frame around those convicted sex offender, nay more thoroughly. Alan, who did resembled the description of folks suspect to a certain degree. Did not resemble the guide, the kid saw messing around the cab and did not match the description that might Michaud gave us the guy who's So that's one of the big lies that greatness tells relentlessly thrives. Book is changing. Witness descriptions, fuck head typed up after the zodiac, where I wrote another letter in november of nineteen sixty nine claiming you know it sounds convincing. He said two cops pulled a goof. They saw me walking towards the park. They asked me a couple of questions. I didn't stop
me they'll. Let me go now. We know that the that guy can't be the killer, because he doesn't resemble the kids description in any way shape or form. So once again, we have the zodiac claiming to be a suspect to a quote: unquote, suspect who's known to police, but not known to the killer. The killer couldn't have known that who can zalm, saw this guy. This was not reported in the newspapers. We do know that every porter was aware of it. A report at the chronicle was aware that food enzymes had seen the sky at this description, but all the descriptions and sketches publicity newspaper were based on the kids to skip,
not not african genomes, when this claim is made, that hey to coops pulled a goof fruit, typed up a report and had it sent to tusky and Armstrong saying yeah, we saw a guy, but they gave a detailed description of him. They didn't think it was the killer and graysmith quotes that so called fluke memo. He quotes it extensively and accurately, but he changes the description of the guy. They saw to make it fit the description of the that's one. The biggest lies that tells because to him that food member, as one of the biggest pieces of evidence he lies about the data was tied. He lies about fact. It out on the abbess lies about the whole thing and that's one of the sinner pieces of his case against Arthur LEO, in it. Something he lies and lies lies about. So kind of covered. How grace seemingly takes factual nation and then makes it
since to it, so that he can tie these crimes together and I've brought it up. On the last episode I did on this about and and you're the one that brought it you're, the one that in making this case but no evidence. Apart from these, so called zodiac letters ties each of these crimes together, because there is no ammo here. I've heard it said that he was killing. You know couples and lovers planes, but I'm sure you can put that terrorists, because one a couple. The other was not a couple and then there was a cabbie, so kind of lay out how there's no evidence and there's no ammo There was a terrible rash of killings in the belay who era in sixteen sixty nine, even going back to sixty seven all related to them
Some fellow mean trade and, as we all know, were meth goes. Violence follows darling. Fern was the tenth murder victim in the previous nine months. Most of these shootings for drug related, those terrible crime live and except in this case, is it
the teenagers on lake herman road. Apparently they they were totally clean, cut straight arrows, so police were briefly baffled. It turned out that David varsity, wrestler god and country boy scout, had gotten into almost got into a fight with a kid he accused of pushing drugs at his school and that description kind of match might show himself or maybe his brother. He had an identical twin brother, Stephen, who left below for reasons unknown mike himself, had a record for theft and mike has spent most of his life in jail, the poor guy, but the two teenagers, apparently at first
when, when investigators started to come up with this possible link to these drug dealers, the investigation stopped for some reason and and then when MIKE and Arlene got shot, there was speculation in the newspapers that there might have been a connection, but we're talking about different weapon, different it's possible that David and Betty Lou were shot because David was suspected of being a snitch by these drug dealers darlings own brother and sister have boats over the years it well. We weren't totally honest with the cops that night, her brother LEO said I asked darlene, she was going by some fireworks. Another party supplies for a party and he asked her to pick up a beggar we in the place she would go to do that was blue rocks brings park these drug dealers, the big time traffickers would bring in the big quantities. But if you get caught with that, it's a much tougher prisons and
so they would meet the nickel and dime dealers at that pumping station on wake herman road and do deals there and the little nickel and dime deals would drive on into town either to arts house or sometimes show the park. So and MIKE himself was dressed like a burglar like a guide jumping in and out of windows he's wearing three four layers of clothes. If somebody sees them, he runs around the corner, pulls off all errors, a layer closing his description, changes and here I had a record for doing this stuff and its possible- he was knitting for villa. Valerio may have double cross them. Valerian and hoffman both put themselves at the scene of the crime at the time of the shooting, but they both claim they didn't see darlings parlor. So there's something funny going on. Villareal was mistaken out david while David. While we ought every night. What's he doing it springs things park at midnight. Did he think I was gonna, show up there and make a deal.
But anyway, there is no real connect. There's no other connection between them. The weapons are different, The shooting the happen, a lake, herman, road gracious twists all the facts around to make. It seem like there was one guy who arrived alone, but it's obvious from the evidence, but it is a crying seeing that they should have got out of the passenger side of the second car, probably the backseat that matches the imo of david while they are when he should other people thought were senators even have one of his cohorts, pick him up in his car so the intake arts car, and then he would run the back seat in him. Get out do the shooting and make his mickey other guys participate. One hang we all hang that doesnt prove what did it, but that does fit his ammo, and that's one of the reasons grace must lies about this, because all the evidence shows that the guy Iraq gotta the passenger side of the second car, which means he had accomplices which their grocers zodiac theory right there other than that. There's no connection there there
we're fingerprints found on the passenger door handle of darlings car. That police believed belong to the killer. There were fingerprints found on us pay phone in a film in napa, where they believed a person called the police department took credit for the shooting a reporter got there. First, he waited the cops arrived collected. Fingerprints. There were fingerprints found on the front page your door of stones cab. I don't think they belong to the killer, but police thought that they might have belonged to the killer at those. Sense of right hand, there were principle left hand that were found on the drivers door of stones care. The witnesses didn't see him open the door, the front drivers door. Somebody did- and we know it was after the shooting took place because the fingerprints are pressed down into some tiny droplets of blood on the inside of the door. Somebody did that's a left
There were fingerprints found on the letters some of them probably belong to chronicle employees. There's some question about that. There were fingerprints, found and hardness card or passing through card, or were the assailant apparently wrote a message standing to be the zodiac, so there are fingerprints from each of these cases, except for lake herman road. There were no fingerprints found that anybody believes belonged to the killer. None of these fingerprints match in the epi. I very specifically looked at all the fingerprints that had been collected up to that point october, the third and said none of these prints match that doesn't totally rule out a possible connection, but grace myth implies in his book that the evidence did show a connection. The witness descriptions of the actual witness descriptions in these actual reports there, all different their fingerprints are all different.
The m o's are different. You have an execution style shooting, unlike herman road you, Somebody who couldn't hit the side of the barn blue rock park using completely different and he did apparently arrive alone. As far as my could see, the driver got out of the car and in all the shooting, then- the stabbing at lake berryessa where the guy arrives in, where in some kind of costume, he spends a lot of time talking to the victims of the. Surviving victims, estimated ten minutes or more. Then he ties them. and then he ends up stabbing them. Then he leaves he supposed. They leave a message at the scene of the crime that totally different from the others. Then you have a completely different crime. You have it. Actually driver murdered in his own cab, You know there was a string, a cab, robberies it we're taking place that fallen. There was a very good suspecting and in etc, etc. So,
None of the evidence suggests any connection at all. All of the evidence points in the opposite direction, except for these letters which take credit for certain murders. But when we compare those letters to the actual facts in the murders we see they could not have been written by the killer or killers. They kind cover themselves. When you speak to- or you read anything from zodiac researchers, they cover themselves by saying that he's just that dangerous. You cannot predict what he might do. Isn't that a sense you got is they try to say he's a new kind of killer he's, not yours. Standard killer, like ted Bundy, who deftly had an emma attacked a certain kind of girl. You know what I'm getting at the ammo, the modus operandi. This zodiac didn't operate like other serial killers right and the idea of a serial killer. Most of them have turned out to be compulsory
Orders murdering people is a compulsive aber, like some people, compulsory gambler, simply broken pulpy sex attics, their compulsive murderers, ever compulsion to oh they usually repeater crimes very consistently. The funny thing about TED Bundy was he was not to come. of murderer. Ted Bundy was a compulsive rapist. He murdered the majority of his victim so that they would not turn him in error likely one woman pretended to like what they were doing and how let her live and she turned a man, but his his method of killing would could vary, but he was right curiously consistent in the amount of his rakes. so he's kind of an odd example. But most must serial killers are com. It's your compulsive murderer and zodiac pussy, was a composite murderer there very, very, very consistent in their allow. These murders were completely different in its
if these people were not on lover's lanes and blue rock springs park or cars in and out of there constantly it was a very popular place to do drug deals lay common road that cars gone by you? Couldn't you had no privacy? Their whatsoever? Did that Udo, who was stabbed at the lake, they were in an isolated area and they probably did have sex before they were attacked, but then you and the cabdriver, and so there's no consistency whatsoever and the fact that the only evidence They even pretend to link these murders. Is these letters and the facts in these cases prove that the letter writer new things, the killer, couldn't have known only someone who had access to these police department files could have known pretty much proves that the letters don't linked the murders either. Yet shouldn't be surprising because way
back in the late baiting hundreds. It was said that a lot of letters came in claiming to be from Jack the Ripper, so. There is a precedent here of letters being sent in trying to take credit for mergers that the letter writer may not have had anything to do with, also the zodiac letters were always written to the newspapers and almost exclusively to the chronicle. The bt k, killer road led to the media to be delivered to the police, and he gave encyclopaedic details leaving absolutely no doubt whatsoever He's he's a good counter. Example of this. Is this just a bizarre that kind of detail. He could recall the zodiac killer letters pretend to lift these facts. When you compare them to the files and as a matter of fact, so you know I'm looking for something
Why would someone do this writing to the editor I have a newspaper with a bunch of investigative reporters. Why did he think they were going to do if someone had followed up on these letters? What would they have seen and what I see and what I show people in the books is that apparently there you know it appears that there's this drug dealer who's working both sides of the street as a as an informant who appears to be getting away with murder maybe that's true. Maybe it's not that's what appeared to be happening, and these letters seem to be specifically calling attention to those particular police reports, Try to get someone to notice that this is going on. With that, a letter writer putting himself for his family at risk by going straight to the cops, that's the only motive I can see for doing this, at least for one of the people involved
another thing that happens is after the third or fourth letter, the handwriting changes there was a conference. One of the claims graceless made was that there was no real cooperation pulling between police departments, s not just a lie, it might have been a case of too much cooperation cunning, getting everybody's imagination going and they had a big conference. on October twentieth in san francisco, representative somalis, police departments, no report
import is allowed, comparing all their evidence and a funny thing happens. Keith power with who graysmith not only doesn't mention his name in his book. He actually lies about who was the reporter at the chronicle covering the hall of justice. He claims that was bob pop pop pop covered, the oakland police department. That's something graysmith! The new graysmith knew that from when he worked at the oakland tribune, but he claims bob popp covered the san francisco hall of justice in nineteen. Sixty nine, that's not true at all. Keith power was the one who is reporting on the on the paul stine murder in these connections to the zodiac crimes well after october twentieth, and he supposedly came up with this huge break in the case. We'll talk about in a few minutes after october twentieth, there's zodiac stories taken away from keith power and given polypary after october twentieth, the handwriting on the latest changes after october. Twenty two personality, the letter writer changes after october twentieth this so called zodiac,
or doesn't have any access to any information about any roamer than ever happen? Is just a completely different letter, written for completely different reason by a person who is trying to copy the zodiac handprinting, but we can see with these color photographs. Now in his car scans, with which we can see, it's definitely a second, When a third person actually writing these letters, and all this happens after this conference october toilet. and the personality really shines through this a different personality. There's a different mood with these other letters. With the originals. Well, in my opinion date it almost as if they were more asking instead of demanding- and very specifically, you know- please print this on the front page of your paper- he had made a very he'd made. He'd made the very first letter. He makes a threat if you dont print these cyprus
if the front page, are going to kill rampage well, he'd mailed the letters too late. For that to happen, maybe that was on purpose may was an accident. The they were not published on the front. Do the newspapers before the deadline- and there was no kill rampage, so we know- was a bluff but in the third letter after the taxi driver get shot makes a very credible threat. He threatened to take a rifle and shoot up a bustle of school kid. That's a very credible threat, then, after october twentieth after this conference, his next letter? He changes his mind. He he is not going to do the credible threat about this sniper a threat. He comes up with this completely impossible plan to plant a roadside bomb and blow up a school bus problem with that is, go out to california and try to dig a hole in a road go out in front of your house.
I try to dig a hole in the road. You can't do that. It's I've you've ever done any road construction work. You don't dig a hole in the road, it doesn't work that way and you certainly can't do it without somebody noticing. So this is a completely and credible threat to plan a roadside bomb and blurb. Why did he do that? Why did he change. All of it's. It's the personalities, different. The reason for writing letters is different. He no longer even pretends to have fun about real murders, it's obviously different person- writing letters for a different reason. Okay, so up to this point, went through the letters, the axe, that someone would have to police reports and about the information would be altered between the police reports and this book. I guess before I finish, I kind of like to go back and talk about
we're gray smith, how he had said when he started getting involved in this case. But I know- You found information that suggest that he was involved earlier than he states. what his story is that he's just a cartoonist. this thing kind of aid away at him, and he he realised that they had this suddenly in nineteen Seventy one or whatever the zebra killings and petty hearse caissons, can't took attention away zodiac, so he decided to get involved, but then You know I am one of those annoying english teachers who reads the footnotes in a paper or a book and in in one of the footnotes to his second book. He mentioned that he was in male, nikolai monarch. I was the agent in charge of this case at the california department, justice he'd, been to this conference.
Serial killers put on by the fbi, conrad serial killers on the brain, and he, very early on he ye initiated some attempts on the local police departments to look into these unsolved shootings and see if they could find a connection which was proper procedure to do well. He collected these copies of these reports from always police departments, and then he said a piece of that bundle to the fbi, and then micro delhi got copies of those to the freedom of information act. That's where we get most of these documents. Gray smith self claims that he was a nickel eyes office in january of nineteen. Seventy two studying nicholas files and helping correct this tin, page bulletin that was sent out in nineteen. Seventy two: that's not the story. He told in the book zodiac that he got involved around nineteen, seventy six or so
We should probably also mention at this point that bulletin put out by Nikolai the supposedly, through letters, a ride with pieces of palestine, bloody shirt, enclosed, but according to nicholas bulletin, only two pieces of shirt were considered evident, which implies that nickel. I thought one of those letters was a fake. The page that would describe that in detail is one of the pages that we're missing in response to my room. What's a centre law enforcement people, the f b, I really some more pages, mostly about dennis land, still haven't seen the page, where nickel explains why he thinks one of those letters was fake, the one that's, obviously the the I'd. Fellow out is the letter to mobilise the handwriting is very, very different is totally different. Even if
the original zodiac killer. Letters were authentic and we're really coming from somebody involved in at least some of these martyrs. Even if that's true, if male nickel, I thought the belly letter was a fake and it looks like a fake there's only one person in the world. But it done that when we look at how the pieces of cloth were torn off of the shirt they were. Failed in the chronological order. They were torn off the shirt because we're photographs of this on those photographs is interesting about the pieces pending the place. If the belly letter was a fake, somebody would have to get their hands on one of those pieces, shirt and The letter that came in the second letter that contained a piece assure the november ninth bus bomb threat letter that peace was torn and two and the peace that was torn off of it was the peace that was
they held in with the melvin belly letter that went to his office and he he didn't turn that over to the police. He turned it over to the chronicle and in he'd been going around telling reporters printing in the paper. I agree represent. The zodiac. All we have to do is contact me or abuse lawyer. He got in public debates about this with the district attorney, the district attorney We cannot claim to represent an anonymous whatever you want it's a letter from the zodiac asking for his help. He puts a notice in the this paper telling zodiac write to me in care of the chronicle. That's that's not what your lawyer tells you to do here, He turns it over to the chronicle they photographic. Interestingly enough, that piece of shit that was enclosed in the letter is actually stuck. You can see threads of it stuck to the
so on the envelope flap when its photographed it was photographed at the chronicle. The person who took those photographs was a fella named Robert Psmith junior worked in their production department of the chronicle if he had also photographed all the others. Zodiac letters there came another chronicle and he'd photographed the other two pieces of shirt. They came in with letters to the chronicle only person in the whole world who could have faked the belly letter would be someone who alone with november nine letter and that piece of shirt alone, in unobserved long enough to turn a piece of that shirt off and put it in his pocket and the only person in the whole world who could have done that besides a police officer was the guy who worked in the Our group, at the chronicle named Robert psmith junior well in eighteen. Seventy six he changes named robert greatness and in took out a copyright
on a manuscript for a book that was going to be published by w w Norton there framed, a guy named whim. Joseph grant grace was called him Andrew Todd, walker and it's ridiculous to think that grant murdered anybody, but that book got cancelled even had announcements in the chronicle. There was an interview with grace within the chronicle about this, but coming out in in for real is it he's, never explained they killed that project about last. Second, so nineteen, eighty six out with a different version of the book where he takes the same evidence that he tried to frame, grant with and tries to frame arthur lee Allen with that book is, is actually published by saint Martin press in in his books. He describes how he thanks you. He claims that the handwriting suspiciously consistent throughout the letters- that's not true. The first three letters are written. Very rough and loose free hand
beginning with the belly letter in some of the other letters right race months, describes this method where somebody would tickets Graphic and larger and use a master alphabet and use it to trace the letters and naked fake zodiac printing. That way- and he forgets to tell the reader that one person who had the equipment and training to do that was Robert Psmith. Junior who you changes named Robert Graysmith Even if I am come pool lee wrong about all of this, even if those original three or four is really were from an actual murderer. The bell. Letter really looks fake and the only person, a home world who could have done was robert grace mouth. He talks about. He track down the books that zodiac used to create his ciphers, and he said those books
had gone missing from certain libraries at military bases, like navy bases around the oakland area in the mid nineties, sixties, ok, that's wonderful, he doesn't tell the reader is that when Robert Psmith junior was going to college in oakland He also had access to those libraries with his military dependence idea guard. His father was colonel Robert Psmith senior and therefore supply officer he mentions being in the same places. Zodiac might have been in any talks about stocking arthur we on which I believe you probably they do, but he never mentions that he was in the same library. At the same time, the zodiac was in their stealing these books that he used to create a ciphers. My first copy. The book was given to me by foreign them randy harness who was. He also gave me a book on my first book on jack, the ripper and game this book about the and I read It- and there was this all this talk about these crypto grams. In it
and the regional three part cryptogram. There is a string of seventeen letters when you d crypt them. They don't in he'd, promised that in this I for his mind entity. Well, I had that my friend five dollars that because in the book the arthur, Leigh Allen character is called Robert h star, and I said well I I I all know the name of the sky. It's I've. I've figured it out from this crypto gram, Robert Graysmith claimed it spelled out robert emitted, it'd, be well all these years later and then and then, and then he comes out with this book, and it makes the announcement that the guys Arthur Leon, I'm like what the hell you know, that's not that's, not who I thought the guy was going to be so I paid randy his five dollars when I was digging into all listen and in the process of which I came across. Robert greatness, real name. Let's just say that my friend rainy harder so
five dollars, plus about twenty twenty five years of interest in its right there in once again just think it's really funny that he never. He never noticed it himself, supposedly blood. It's it's right, sir, and you can see in the book I show It'S- you dont need X, ray specks, Anita, it's based on the official, the officially sanctioned cracking of the, code and it also his name also shows up. I think in the letter that said my name is the famous my name is letter and there's a string of thirteen characters. I think it shows up there again, but that's that's the one that was harder to prove, but seems you know it doesn't prove he wrote the letters it doesn't prove that he created the crypto grams, but it's one heck of a coincidence and there's a guy named robert with junior, who brings a thirty eight pistol to the local police department on his own initiative and ask them to check it out
a name and might have been another roberts. Must junior spoke of the same age? That's true, but he doesn't mention that either it their lot. All these reasons- and there are a lot more reasons when you read the book, it's it's a chapter by chapter page by page debunking, his work and also explaining why he changed his name. It's not it's it's common for true crime, authors to write under a pen name and that's bad, for your credibility as a journalist. But there are lots and lots of reasons why he changed his name. They will change their name for fictional books, that they write, write and or if they think their life is in danger. His life was not in.
It's obvious why he changed his name, and so it's, but he he's not. It's. That's not his handwriting. On the the letters, the the handwriting belongs to somebody else, and I have some indication it's the connection between him and and and that guy, but I haven't been able to prove that conclusively yet and the crypto grams look. You know the kind of block printing that a graphic artist would do my hunches their grace with them involved in creating the crypto grams. I can't prove that I bet it's pretty obvious that he's the most when, when us person takes over writing the letters, the number one suspect for that is great smith, but even aside from that, there's no doubt he he lied and lied and lied about about almost everything in these cases in
It's not just that he lied and made a lot of money. Several officers who took over these murder investigations have said they have used his book as their primary source, and then we he himself admits thing. These were. Information comes out that he was involved in this much earlier than he said at what point did he started interfering in these investigations? I think neild. There is no doubt that. legally. Arthur early on in his family could not obtain these documents to you. them in a civil loss it, but there is no doubt that if they had been able to get a copy to these documents, they could assume grace met for life. There is no doubt about that, and a lot of other people have complained about lies in this book, but they couldn't prove them, because at that time the public could not get these documents. Will these documents around now?
and there's just no doubt about it and you can go through his book. No one has to take my word for any of this. The documents are on my website, other people's websites. I've got them sorted and collated pageant, aided email me and I'll. Send you a zip vile. That has the whole thing all the newspaper articles, all the all the original case files and all that stuff. It's it's over twenty five hundred pages, but don't take my word for any less look all this stuff up fear! So that's what I that's. What I'm asking people to do? If you like Crime is a unique opportunity. We never. We never get a chance to see those original case files. This is the most faint case in american history. Anybody can meet these files if you can, we're I've gone off, attracts the website is freely comments whatever. Thank you guys very much
you ve been very helpful. Your listeners have been helpful the feedback I got from my appearances, the debate I had with make more effort very helpful and helping me clarify what to spell out in the book and want to leave in the footnotes. That was very helpful. That people were what did that for me. So I think- and she probably mentioned this- the great zodiac killer hopes in nineteen. Sixty nine was finished for a long time, but people were demanding it. I published a book on amazon, any block that was basically a copy of the report I had sent to law enforcement people it was heavily redacted some things in it turned out. I had to change it. I promised people that they would get a discount when the robot came out. Well, the good news is, I I was hoping amazon would send you an email if you bought a copy of the great zodiac killer. Hopes of nineteen sixty nine, the real finished come completely different version in the book is now there.
If you already bought a copy, you can download the new version completely for free. You don't have to pay for it. A lot of people have their kindle set for automatic, download of updated versions. You should have gotten them by now. If not you can you can get that for free. If you already bought a copy, you do not need to buy another copy it. It has definitely been updated. Yes, absolutely he asked other young people, they complained about the rejected names, bed need or not. When you read through this, you don't see these empty spots in the writing any more in a couple of things not corrected. For example, I thought the chief suspect was was ray land, it wasn't. It was just dennis land. Also, I warn people on the amazon page and on my web pages. Like look, this book is not finished, but if you I copy now you'll get a discount when the real but comes out whether book is out. You don't even have to it's totally. If you already bought a copy, you can download that the new version for free so.
ok. Well, yeah. I urge everyone to check out the books. I find it interesting because most books written on on murders, especially unsolved murders, people try to name a suspect. You do the exact opposite in a way, you actually say that there is no see I suspect here which would negate the serial killer aspect, at least from the point of view that it was the zodiac saw. Yeah definitely read the looks shoe them over and then feel free to contact com. act him in and let him know if you have you fight any problems or if you Enjoy them and I've I've already, gotten messages from people that, if this to the past episodes- and enjoyed. Every single zodiac episodes. I'm sure, though, they'll be some of the first ones to check out the new books.
Yeah I've been promising them for a while on top of a new stuff kept coming out, and that was great. It kept proving me right, and also I got sick last fall net. Put me behind schedule for five months. The main thing is Why am I doing this? It's not just it grace graysmith lied in and made a bunch of money, not famous I know these victims- and they were all young- none of the victims or their families ever got any justice. And you can see when you compare his book and the activities he's done to these case files. You can see that he has he's a big reason why there has been no justice, yet almost makes eminent. You could almost say he's been an accomplice to murder, because he's done so much to confuse witnesses and cops about these investigations. So that's more than just profiting from people's grief. I mean he has really interfered and in pursuit of just,
in these cases. I just want to say that thank you so much for having me back yeah thanks for coming back on yeah interesting reads. The the. In the late sixteen hundreds, the coast of north america, became a hotbed of piracy, but american pirate, much more than just armed robbery of the high seas. They were all a crucial figures in the growth of the thirteen colonies, that would eventually
become the united states. I lindsey grant the hosts of wondering, show american history tellers. We take you to the events times and people that shaped america and americans. Our values are struggles and our dream. in our latest series. We take you back to the so called golden age of piracy and review the true stories behind such mythical figures as black beard and captain Kidd loose to the age of pirates by following american history, tellers on apple pont, amazon, music or wherever you get your pot casts within one. girls and ad free by joining one replace an apple pon casts or the one rehab.
Transcript generated on 2022-10-18.