I do about it I'm doing fine just and how are you I'm doing fine this case most of you- know, Aaron actually picks out. Most of the cases we cover its only on occasion that I will find something that that sparks my interest,

and I had a surplus of audible credits and I promise is not an audible. Add I had too many sorts to go. Spend some. This happened to be a book that I came across true crime. Novel very unassuming book called wicked takes the witness stand. With no fees or minimums banking with capital, one is the easiest decision in the history of decisions even ease, here then deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast with no we're draft ease, isn't he the decision that banking re imagined, what's in your wallet term supply see capital one dot, com, slash bank capital, one in a member of I icy tonight. We're talking about case out of Michigan where a man was dead in the back of a pickup truck and then the case started. Taking crazy turns after that mysterious death possible natural death,

possible murder there are a lot of characters were going to be talking about so no that jury, Tobias is the deceased, and lorry more is going to be demand accused for his murder there we'll be a lot more people accused laurie is the first one minute do my best to go through this material there's a lot that happens here gale Michigan, it's a very blue collar town, the men, their work out an oil fields deal activities around town or a kind of hunting and fishing very outdoors the area very isolated, want to call it a small town, because people get mad when I call their town small, even though I'm personally alain kansas city. So if I called a small town and just a few thousand people, it's all relative. Yes,.

because it's so isolated, there's not much going on there. So there's a lot of bars drinking and drug use does run ramp at their, whether be cocaine or marijuana. The law enforcement feels that the drugs or so bad, that ache any districts formed a drug enforcement taskforce to fight the drug scourge that they felt list. in all other cities. But it's This mostly marijuana and cocaine dealing. That's the problem, it was words December eighth, nineteen, eighty, six, four, Am it's a monday, a state patrol officer? I was checking out a pickup truck. They saw parked on the side of the road. It was at the end of the street, eleanor street, the copper approach, the vehicle saw that there was something in the back of the truck and the better the truck, and he will finding a man name, jerry tobias

who is deceased now a coat hat or gloves. Wearing cowboy boots genes and a shirt, but the shirts like hiked up to his armpits and its exposing him to the freezing elements that he's not dressed appropriately the weather, some might say lives. Emissions may be, can handle it, but no there's some they obviously wrong here. With this situation he's way in sort of an awkward position. One of his feet is lying on a guy. Ask can the other Is up on the side of the truck bed? He has some jumper bulls that are somewhat coiled around him in his arms. It's not quite clear if the jumper cables were used to bind him, but They are there and they are coiled around his arm. So it's a possibility because north central michigan. It is free,

outside. There is snow everywhere and that officer notices that there are footprints leading away from the truck and down the street, so a possible assailant Well, that's what it looks like because if his hands like they had been bound and their footsteps leading away from the vehicle, then I mean this first glance. It looks like maybe he was attacked sir, also notices that that two biases is discoloured, possibly bruised later on, the reports will find that he has bruising and his head fine needle marks on his arm up to eight puncture marks That's indicative of drug use, jerry Tobias, had not been seen since friday and he was expected home the next day.

But he informed as wife that he was doing a weekend job, and so she was expecting him more less to be home sunday. Instead, come monday he hasn't shown up and she will call his boss and ask him if he's at work. Where is that His boss will say that he was expected at work on Monday morning and he didn't have a weak and job now everyone's worried because nobody's seen or heard from him all weekend and his boss will call the police and a report a missing person, another police officer it actually spotted the truck parked on the side of the road. The day before ran the plate but the truck wasn't reported stolen or anything. So it came back clean, I'm assuming because its michigan, so called out. Possibly the officer didn't get out of the vehicle and investigate

further yeah. I just wonder if it was one of those situations where you assume it. Abandoned, or maybe someone ran off for a moment and you're just check in the plates and then you move on, but it's what a weird that the officer didn't see, the you know the leg or the boot. On the side of the the bed of the truck but I'm just gonna go with. They didn't want to get out of here look closer at this vehicle jerry too, it, was known around town people knew him. He was kind of party guy. He drank a lot he did have run ends with the police but nothing major. He never fought with them or anything more or less a drunken disorderly conduct. Sometimes they would small amounts of marijuana on him, but he didn't have a police record to speak of nothing excessive. That would give him a rapture very interesting

piece of evidence is found in his truck. He has packages of meat found in the cab which have been wrapped from a butcher shop. There happens to be a butcher shop. That's just two blocks away from where the truck is found. Called waltz and all the package meet found in his truck was from waltz butcher, shop, so kind of a connection there like, oh obviously as one of the last places he went to, he didn't make it home. Waltz, does choice, cuts of steak and meets, see food and they also process dear and game for the hunters. So if you shoot dear, he can take it. Walton though do it up for you. I don't know it's called dressing a dear what the terms are, but they will package that dear up for you, so it's you home put in the freezer, so lead, though, with the package a meat showing that came from waltz. This

Really. There only lead right yeah, they have nothing. They just have a dead man in the back of a pickup truck. They're not sure how he died yet, but it looks like foul play and the last person they know of is the waltz butcher shop while they visit this butcher shop at run by lorrie, moore, yeah and laurie tell them that jerry had actually by the shop earlier that week was asking, if his dear, was ready because he dropped dear off and he was with his two sons and the meat that they found was about two hundred dollars where the meat, when they laurie about this first, he said that he doesn't amber jerry, buying any meat from the store, and then one day, showed him. The meat he was like That's not even rap the way we do it. I could not caught or anything that's

the way we sell to customers. Lorry says he knows jerry they're, not exactly friends but their acquaintances, but Laurie cannon knows everybody in town: it's a small town and everyone comes to the shop to buy their meat order process there dear. So he knows everyone, so the last time, jerry was seen alive was friday night, they ask laurie, where were you at Friday night? Well in small town. There is a huge event. It's at the northland sportsmen club and it's called the annual animal game dinner and it's about two hundred people, local businessmen, government officials, hunters field workers everybody they all come together for this big. What to do? it's a men's, only affair to sort of weird. doesn't sound very inclusive when they say men's only.

so lorry more the owner of waltz, he was in attendance at night claims that he closed up his shop at six p m friday night. So he could attend this. Sporting event and by nine pm. He was heavily and drinking and having a good time by One, a m witnesses, the event say law He was wasted and by one thirty, a m A man named nelson spoke to him and said he was very drunk and it's about time that lorry would leave. It makes him phone calls. He talks to his friends girlfriend and tries to meet up and find his franny tries to get them to come to this yah, but they didn't want to go so we goes over there. He meets up with her and he waited for his friend Tom kirby to arrive home at about two a m. They hang out for

an hour. It said that lorry had asked his friend tom for drugs during this visit, but he didn't have any. so Lori laughed at around three a m. He arrives home he's so drunk that he's doing like a burn out in his driveway she's kind of stock in the ice and snow unease. Just driving aggressively in and he's pushing on the gassing doing a burn out means he's playing music really loud and singing because he's wasted drunk his wife comes out to be rate him, and then she sees that he's just happy drunk and not hurting anyone, so she gets him in the house the next day. He extremely hung over a doesn't get to work until about noon He leaves work early because he's not feeling well, but at this point there

the body of jerry, Tobias at thea article examiners office and the lead, Ethical examiner, forensic pathologist is not around so new examiner who is not certified, not board certified. This was her. First autopsy a frozen body. The examiner doktor new house he sees the discoloration in his face and his head. She says it's it's bruising from an attack from a beating, she sees all these issues with him, she take blood and urine samples. The urine ample shows that he has a bunch of cocaine in his system but the bloodshed, Bull is sent off for testing and she

says that there is no cocaine in his blood, but they'll come up later. She determines the cause of death by blunt trauma to the head: that's not unexpected, because is the others. I guess you could say evidence that was apparent when they looked at jerry was that it look like been dragged right because of his boots. They had scuff works on them on the sides. And then his shirt was torn any ad in the bruising obvious There was some sort of altercation or assault here. She finds boy in his nose and in his throat. So possibly somebody punched him in the face bloodied, his nose and goes down. Yet I had no broken bones, no signs of strangulation no sign, the stabbing or being shot nothing. So just blunt force trauma to the head appears, but she's not really sure about the time of death, because his body,

was frozen he found for pubic hairs on him, but they were not able to fight any matches for those and his blood. Alcohol content was point zero, to which that's very low very low, so either a he wasn't drunk at all or be he'd been drinking the night before, but by the time he died. Most of the alcohol had left his system. He had some bleeding to the brain. So again that just goes. Back to her determination of blunt forest trauma to the head. Please go and track jerry's movement on friday. They find that he was at the office to pick up a truck,

and that he went home or he laughed at around three or four. He called his boss, a check on his next job, which actually wasn't until monday at seven thirty friday night. He stopped by his wife shop and asked her for gas and food money and said that he would be back on saturday, so she game forty bucks, but then he tells her while I'm doing a weekend. Job so might be a little bit later, but he doesn't have a job he's going. two so he's lying to his wife right now. And the money he's getting from her is probably going to drugs while its forty bucks, its forty bucks. So I don't know you know but later that night he's at a bar he's with some friends. and he's bragging that he has five thousand dollars on them, and that is bad drinks for other bar patrons

getting wasted drunk. So this is weird well, if he's lying about working a job that weekend, why couldn't he lie about not having any money? Well, I guess that's the thing is he's not going to tell his wife that he is doing something illegal, and he's going to act like everything's normal. So maybe it's just routine that he would ask her for gas money or whatever make everything with normal. He will be. to one of his friends at night that he's going to gay lord to buy some cocaine so he's outside of the city at this bar. So it can take em, I'll get to gay. Lord. Do this stuff get back, but he actually says it he's going to come back to the bar before closing or see everybody tomorrow, obviously his wife's confused when she calls his boss and says minnow. What was he doing in the ices confused because there wasn't any weaken job, but here we have

Harry saying that he possibly was going to buy cocaine that friday night and He says he has five thousand dollars on him. He got forty bucks from his wife, but then is buying everyone at the border. We were blown. All is forty bucks, I'm assuming, but I don't know how much drinks costs back and nineteen eighty six and I think A box could go a long way here is an interesting thing. There's a woman that works for lorry more at the butcher shop and she claimed that she was giving jerry two hundred dollars to go by her some pot. Some marijuana have first Becky says she doesn't know who jerry's buying drugs from But then she can't comes round and says: well actually she was gone to buy it from my boss, lorry more which is

weird to me, because I'm just wondering why is she giving money to jerry too by the drugs? But maybe it's just because it's just isn't going to leave her house so Jerry's. There the middle man or the the gopher, for it then another coincide. I find here. She gave him two hundred dollars for weed and then he's found with two hundred dollars where the meat and his truck, I don't think it's related, but it's sort of weird coincidence. So now we have Becky saying that she gave need to jerry too by drugs from lorry more and we have the meat in the truck. That's connecting him back to walt to shop. Lorry more laurie more, is coming more more. The focus of the investigation here yet starting to look like a pretty tight circle. They call lorry in for questioning he volund

early goes down to the station. He thinks he's helping with this death here she's helping with the investigation. He says he doesn't know jerry very well, but he was processing a deer for him. They ask him about the meat that was found in the truck and again lorry just says that it wasn't cut the usual in the usual way. We do it and that he has no record of jerry buying he can't find a receipt, but they keep pressing him on drugs, drug deals and what not? At that point, lorries like screw this, I'm out my wife's an attorney, and I know where this is going, so he takes off. He talks to his wife and

since his wife's an attorney. She knows the prosecutor in town who happens to be a man named norm Hayes and she calls norm and says. Why are you questioning my husband what's going on here and Hayes is involved with the investigation, but he's not the cops that are doing the investigation yet he's just the prosecutor, but he also has his sights set on lorrie moore, Now, there's a lover of history here which a sort of interesting lorry moors wife dated norm haze yeah years before, but she left him for lorry more see. That's key. was about to say, but it's a small town, remember how you said now: people harp on about small towns. Well, What kind of knows each other, and in this case, They know each other a little too well and thereby

be a little bad blood there. Not only is it such a small town that he dated lorry moors wife, but Laurie, more and norm. Haze went to school together back in the day and a pair Lee situation happened on the school bus were norm, Hayes His father had taken his own life and laurie more inside, that day he was going to be a bully and said some very derogatory. things towards Hayes, a week sunlike you I'd, take my life to you, a little more harsh about china clean it up for you price, It goes without saying that we're all missing travel right now, but you know we're missing, getting more for less with pricing. can save up to sixty percent on your favorite hotels, and you can also get whose deals on car rentals flights and more when used the more you can do more more wow, this view is incredible. More

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exclusively in movie theaters July fifteenth buy tickets. Now We never apologize for this and he always felt bad about it, but he never apologize for it. so? You have norm haze, whose looking at his high school school bully, whose a suspect in a murder and whose wife was the woman he was dating. I guess you could say a conflict event, Yes, but I don't know you, I dont think I'd want to be in lorry more shoes at that point, so the cops got a search, warrant for the, but your shop for waltz and they raided the place. Yes out. Harry was found on december, eighth of knights and eighty six and the shop was actually rated four days

or so a lot was happening. A lot of investigation was happening in those three to four days. Yeah. You know it's a butcher shop. You have sharp objects, you have all kinds of things that you could use to kill a person with, but what what did they end up? taking from the shop aaron sore weird or remember that we talked about how there was blunt forest trauma on jerry, Tobias and what they find in the shop that they think was related to this crime was a chicken roasting spit. It's like a thin metal rod like a skewer. If you think back to the Michael peterson case, we talked about what happens when you hit someone over the head with a hard metal object. It can split the scalp cause skull, fracturing you name it, and this is what commonly happens is wait the always happen here. Right here. Well,

the medical examiner, Patricia new house machines saying that find something then and long to the investigator. So they also examples of the the flooring of different things, but this metal sky. Is sort of the murder weapon, as we would call it while the case is being built right, yeah they're, putting it together, but they end up exuding the body of jerry, Tobias yeah, which is pretty incredible. For this case I mean you almost might say that there, Doing a very thorough job here you would think it right. I mean that's what it seems like laurie more is indicted and they go forward with a trial against him. A marked second of nineteen, eighty four

Evan they charged lorry more with second degree murder, and then later that year in november he went on trial. and when they're talking about. The autopsy of jerry, Tobias, they're showing the works on his body to the jury and defence. And there are two red dots on jerry's head there not long marks or poking holes or anything there. Just dots and new house The medical examiner is saying that this Can skewer is what caused these marks on his head? They have her do sort of a mock attack, so they have a police officer sit in a chair, she has the secure in her hand and cheese acting like she's

hitting the guy in the head with it, and she saying this is how it went down. The defence says her. No, no, this is bs, it doesn't actually look like you could kill someone with this thing. I guess know the difference. Actually pulled out a pumpkin, that's relatively the size of a human head and said We want to see you mark up this pumpkin with that rod and, of course, the prosecutor haze objection says a pumpkin is not a human head, so they decide to bring in a mannequin head with clay on it into the courtroom. To do this, this attack with this chicken skeer to see what would happen, and they bring the medical examiner back in and they give her the steady skewer

and they have her hit this mannequin head with clay on it. I guess it's somewhat comical because like the skin on jerry devices head wasn't broken. He had no school fractures, thing, but she saying it's blunt force trauma to his head that caused his death, so she hits this mannequin head with clay with this metal rod and it leaves sort of a along crescent mark because the metal actually bins as it hits the mannequin head. Ok, It doesn't look anything like the two red dots on jerry devise so during little experiment are doing with this. Mannequin head at the defence starts cross. Examining new house medical examiner asking her like how is this possible? How is this utensil

going to cause death and she actually backs off from the blunt trauma to the head and start saying well, his head could have whipped around from the impact and cause death almost like whiplash or something to that effect, or she may be saying that his head was whipping and he was hitting a truck or the ground or something, and that was causing more trauma. No, no. She said it was whipping around from the impact of this chicken vague yeah I mean the accounts don't make it sound? Is, though, it actually look like a vicious weapon It looked more like something that would take you off yeah. It was He had no neck injuries, nothing so we're back to what was the cause of death. If it's not. If this is not the murder weapon and its obvious, that too

red spots on his head, aren't caused by a long, thin piece of metal. The defense's questioning her about a possible drug overdose. And she says that it's impossible. He did have Cain and his urine, but cocaine Metabolize is very quickly through the body and she says that there was no cocaine found in his blood. She says this testifies to it on the stand. The defence and calling in their own expert witness to discount the chicken secure as a deadly weapon. Ah, obviously it's it's up. Foregone conclusion that that's not what happened, but the defense is trying to find any paperwork on the blood test.

that. The medical examiner says had no cocaine in it and they're not able to find any paperwork so that sort of a red flag that they're keeping in their back pocket and china find out. They also bring in their own expert who analyze is the discoloration on jerry's body and They say you know what it looks like. He was in a fight all this is an bruising some of its just discoloration, because he froze to death yeah. They said thing about how it could be hemorrhaging ma am, just a natural process. That would happen if someone was suffering from hypothermia so now. We have an explanation for a lot. The bruising- and we have maybe an explanation of the leading on the brain. If he's hemorrhaging, but the matter Examiner will say that you only believe from the brain from an impact from trauma.

So of his body is freezing and dying and his gang hemorrhaging someone who perhaps doing an autopsy for the first time or is green, they might not know exactly what they're looking at exactly the defence brings up the pubic care that was found on the body and they theorize that possibly jerry was sleeping the wrong woman and got into a fight was on drugs, possibly overdosed, or got into a fight in when passed out in the back of his truck and then froze to death the process fusion, just hammers home the connection between jerry and lorry, the meat in the truck and the fact that Becky one of lorries, employees,

claims that she gave two hundred dollars to jerry to buy these drugs. Now Becky's testimony comes under fire by the defence and she says that she gave two hundred dollars to do four marijuana and then He changes her story and says it was actually for for cocaine. Then she says that she went by the shop the next day saturday, to ask lorry about the deal, and she says that lorry saw jerry on Friday night, but the deal never happen. Her story really doesn't hold up very well and changes because she's, She says that lorry hasn't. seen jerry since friday night or that he saw him at the club and then its changed again from the marijuana to the cocaine. It's me

no changes, but it's enough that it brings Becky's testimony into question towards the end of the trial. It comes out that door areas, blood analysis that was claimed I have no cocaine in it was actually not a blood analysis? It was a drug screen. So a drug screen, pretty much says: there's cocaine or there's not cocaine. A drug analysis will tell you how much cocaine was in And remember the medical examiner said no cocaine in his blood. This wasn't an overdose woe. They keep asking for this drug analysis, an exist. The prosecution and the medical examiner cannot produce it, but they do produce a drug screen, but with da. The drug screen actually came back positive for cocaine in his blood. She lied. So if you're, trying to

prove an overdose The drug analysis would be the better thing to have. They don't have one and it turns out that one was never done. So how can a prosecutor stand there and say this stuff it's not true, because they can say whatever they will not try to be a jerk here. But this is their theory this. The argument there going with going with it. The train has left the station by their being called down on it. The defences completely tearing part their whole idea that this wasn't a drug overdose. There are eight puncture marks on his arm. You can shoot up cocaine. an overdose from it very easily, and there was cocaine found in a system, but we can't tell you how much because they didn't do the proper testing and then they didn't refrigerate D spent.

men's correctly, and they had to destroy them later. So there's no retesting. That can be done. So a lot of you, probably thinking walking This is a mysterious death could have been foul play might not have been foul play. it could have been a drug overdose. This story. Isn't that interesting? Yet we haven't gotten to the the good parts yet, but I promise you it gets more interesting, so they bring lorries, wife, wife and testify about his meaner, the knight of the alleged murder. She says that she didn't agnes any marks on whom any bruising or anything, and that he was drunk in wasted and happy that interest. She doesn't think that he would be capable of this crime I mean you can be drunk and commit a crime, but he was singing and happy and just jovial the defence rest their case with his wife.

wife's testimony of the night of and prosecution staircase, with the connections between Becky and the meat and this medical examiners completely botched. Of events Mary will find him guilty of manslaughter. which is interesting. First to be murder, not second degree murder, but manslaughter, but wasn't this I may add this verdict came about because of the jury instructions right, kinda yeah I mean they. They pretty much were told. If you think that had anything to do with this crime. This is how you must come down on the verdict. I don't know I don't I don't know wanna, say: jury instruction was the cause of this because they could have said not guilty

where does it say, though, is life from what I understood was that the jury was instructed that, if you feel like he was involved in this gets into the degrees of things. But their say You could find him guilty of voluntary manslaughter. But the defence didn't like this because the way they saw it based on the theory that the prosecution had that this wasn't a manslaughter case either he didn't do it or this was a higher charge of murder, wasn't manslaughter exactly they don't like that this was thrown in their it's almost like the prosecution gets extra chance at getting a conviction here, and the defence is so shocked by it that they do a jury pole which is actually pretty standard, but the jury comes out. They say guilty of whatever

and then you can pull the jury which, as you ask, every member of the jury individually. How do you find and they give their guilty verdict? Well, they get to your number twelve who doesn't answer and then she breaks down crying. And finally says guilty the same you're willing to pay. being a sympathy card to lorry moors mother, say I'm sorry. I didn't want to edge. That's not cool. The defence already is working on an appeal process a retrial trying to get this just trying to build their game plan the general and a brick using himself from even this sentencing, because the prosecutor in defence were fighting so much. They

so hostile during this entire trial that the judges too emotionally exhausted to deal with it before sing even happens. Four of the jurors will sign half a day it's saying they want to change their verdict. saying they got it wrong for that's crazy. So does that give anyone pause? I would hope I would that, if you're on a jury, you can't take it back once you give up, guilty verdict or not guilty verdict. There's no going back. What's done is done, that's it! That's got Be a difficult thing because you're on a jury and who knows pressures are on you, but if you end up feeling later, like you made a mistake, I don't know that's something that would have to a pretty heavy on you

family, member of or more, is approached by a serious woman, her name is Debbie parmiter and she says, That she has inside information about the murder of jerry to buy and she knows that lorry is innocent, but she'll denied. If anyone questions her so howard, the family member goes too defense attorneys of lorrie Moore, says us this. Woman came up and told me that she has insider information and that lorries not guilty. The defence will find her and she's not that hard to find. They will ask her well what happened that night and Debbie here will say. I was riding around with my friend mark canter and another man named John and they say what whose John she says it's an ex boyfriend.

Ask her. What's his last name, she says she doesn't know, but she knows this other guy. She says that mark and john our drug traffickers and gun owners and that they were there that night to meet terry, more and another man named doug brinkman. She says that. They drove around doing coke and were drinking, they went to waltz to meet up with jerry to discuss a coke deal when things went bad and terry, more and dug beat jerry to death and lorry wasn't involved at all, which is weird because how All these other people get involved with this. She will go on to say that mark and john are big I'm drug dealer, gun runners, they run drugs to Canada and

they have a connection to local military base, where they get automatic. weapons and missile launchers, which she went with mark once out to a lake and he shot this bazooka a small island and blew it up completely and she's seen military style helicopters. Do cocaine, drops of light sales of cocaine sounds like a reverend. Horton heats on these helicopters would drop off these bales of cocaine for them to distribute lorries. Defence attorney wool try to sidestep this whole drugging, gun, running story, just tat for concern on the story about lowering more and Debbie demands that she gets protective custody and de defence attorney. His name's rob by the way

He tells her to just go to the police if she thinks her her in danger. She just needs to go to the the authorities and three days later, she he's on the radar of norm. Haze de prosecutor during this time rob lorry moors too, its attorney will receive threatening letters, and robert report these letters to the fbi, because of their death threats, prosecutor haze, we'll send his detective to go meet with Debbie and get her state meant. She will give a similar statement that she gave to the defence attorney. But now she's added lorry more to the mix. She says that they went to waltz to pick up. Terry they drove around, they went back and terry is the one that beat jerry to death. Doug Brinkley showed up later

They took jerry's body and dumped in the truck haze questions debbie separately and she goes on about how terry more isn't drugs and gun running and they take this so seriously that they actually get a warrant to wiretap terry moe, terry Moore's phone, and then they have debbie call terry and try to set up a meet. Try to get him to talk about the murder, because if terry moore had something to do with this, you get him talking, get him confess to the crime rate. That's the best way to do it because, as we know, if you confess that's, it cases done now well. Debbie calls terry and He says I don't know who you are or lady not going to meet with you, She eventually gets him to agree to me. She goes to the meat point he doesn't show

and then when she calls them again says why weren't she there he's like I thought about it and no I'm not meeting you you're crazy. She tells him well. If you don't meet with me, I'm going to go to the police. And tell him everything I know about how you're involved with this murder and terry more says, go to the police in tat. I want you to begin. You would have information about this murder than you. to tell him about it. She also mention these two other men, Doug brigman and mark canter. It's easy for the police to go russian, these two guys because their already in jail for unrelated charges. They are drug, deal, yours and larceny, just petty, petty stuff they brought dug in for questioning, and they ask

him now. Do you know this woman named Debbie Parmiter, and he says yes there. I do you no mark canter. Yes, how do you know then. We all work together at this place called beaver, creek ski resort. I know d because we had a relationship. Didn t very well? She told my boss that I was stealing from work. She got me fired and then my friend mark quit protest, because he knew that it was all based on a lie. So there asked it. They know the moors. You know the owners of the shop and there like not really We don't know where these people are now their of them knew jerry, Tobias at all the victim of this matter,

They knew who the moors were just because they were familiar with walls, but neither of them could say who jerry Tobias was. They took polygraph tests, they both failed, but when, here about the way the polygraph tests were administered site. They were being asked quest, and nothing was hooked up to him, and then they just said you failed and then incomes the detective and prosecutor haze to say you failed, polygraph, you're gonna go to for life. Unless you tell us how you were involved with this crime is sounds more like interrogation technique than actual polygraph testing yeah I dont want Will they get to confuse by all the names and throwing out there? So just remember jerry Tobias, as is the victim, is the man that was found in the back of the truck. and lorry more and his brother, terry more, are the owners of waltz in this woman.

Debbie. Parmiter is now saying she was at the scene of the crime she witnessed the murder and now she's saying other people were involved. Taken want to get a word from our sponsor mind's eye. What if your, nightmare was real in mines. I First fiction podcast from the park has network homicide. Detective kate, MC clay is having horrifying dreams. The only that can stop it catching a serial killer, minds, eyes a tense thriller. four listeners of Jan, why to crown podcast mystery novels and audio dramas like lime, town or homecoming, plagued by nightmares homicide, detective, kate, Maclean, enlist her radio journalists, husband to help get to the bottom of her horrifying dreams and perhaps solve a murder in progress in her search for an end to her nightmares. Cape fights against psychology, science, her own family and even a serial killer minds. I brought you from park ass, the story team behind hit shows like serial killers, colts an unsolved murders, true crime stories, the six episode

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laurie moors trial. He did this solely by himself. He was the only actor in this crime, but now with the addition of debt, they're like oh. Maybe there are more people involved and, of course, his brother was involved. Why wouldn t be and then we have these two men, Doug brigman and mark canter. She says they were there, but whose weird John fellow she was talking about well turns out that John. Is somebody else: name dawn eastman dawn used to work at the shop, the butcher shop for like two weeks, but he was allergic to dear hair and he quit and he wasn't Debbie's ex boyfriend. So her whole story just doesn't make any sense. right out of the gate, but hey you. We have a woman here who says she's a witness said,

that she knows things about this crime and she's telling them that, like I was there, I witnessed it and she says terry, more beat and staff jerry, Tobias, then all the men took turns beating him with a baseball bat had no stab wounds and no signs of a baseball bat attack. She can't get her story even remotely consistent with the evidence, but the district attorney's happy because someone is saying I was there and I know who was there with us and I know who committed the murderer and who helped yeah. So it doesn't matter that all the details are wrong. They have Someone saying hey, this is how it went down. That's better and circumstantial evidence, apparently right now, and why, Would somebody lie about this she's not being convicted of anything?

not getting anything in return for her testimony, but she keeps asking for police protection and she even says at one point: a cop car drove by that she witnessed through the back window of the butcher shop, but didn't stop to check out anything and apparently that's the only piece of her story that kind of matched up a little bit, because a cop did patrol that area that night, but the part about the story, that's completely false is there is no back window and that puts your shop. So how did she see a cop car trap pie? Did she get the front and the back and fused it's just everything about her story is wrong, so they try to find character. References for Debbie this. This is quite a task- it's pretty much a mingled web of just horrible relationships after one after another and she never really had an address of her own shoes

married to a man named Leonard for thirteen years, but they were in the process of a divorce. Leonard had actually filed divorce papers, but Debbie Parmentier had not been cooperating with the process, so they were still married, even know she didn't live at the house anymore and she'd gone on to other people. The asker how'd you have all these details bout, this murder, these gun runners in everything she says well arise. it all down on my diary like okay. Well, can we look over your diary. She says, will you could, but it's in my safe deposit box in florida again, I'm just thinking red flags all over the place, the initial detectives that too Debbie disregarded her the defensive,

before lorry more disregarded her, because nobody thought that she was credible. But here we have the prosecutor, haze hook, land sinker thinking, something's up, and she must know something. and if I can describe her to settle down for a moment, she's gonna be star witness and I'm gonna get a whole bunch of prosecutions. Goin on here. At this point, there's a new judge for lorry more who does the sentencing he will sentence lorry to the fullest extent, of the law for manslaughter seven to fifteen years and at the same time we have other men in the same courthouse being charged in indicted for the murder of jerry Tobias, while we have another man going to prison in the theory.

as he worked alone, he did this by himself. Keep that in mind. So Debbie had known, mark canter and dug brigman from this ski resort and got them got at least doug fired, while the manager at the ski resort It was a man named Roger Becker's and its interesting because the defence attorney is going through all this documentation and their finding pay slips and what not. He comes across some money: orders written out by a man named Roger Becker's, inside the thing about these payslips. These money orders looks really familiar to him and he pulls out that threatening letter he received the death threat that he reported to the f b. I and so this is the same handwriting. This is this A person that wrote this wrote the death threat and he calls

prosecutor and says. I think I have a lead here, Think I have something pro peter haze completely disregards him, hangs up the phone will bring this evidence enter into his appeals process because he's like ok, we have a link between Debbie parma here in this manner the ski resort, who apparently wrote a death threat to me. Why would this happen? Why would he do that? But he has a connection to the prosecution's star witness now it sounds like a of tunnel vision there. a little bit. The defence will go and talk to Debbie's acts. He still her husband, they talk to leonard- and they say, will you talk to us about your wife, because we want some more information about her leonard invites the men as oh, yeah, she's insane. She has Hamas. Idle tendencies, she's a command of liar, and a sociopath mile,

interaction with her she file day. False out nation against me that I attacked her with a pair of scissors and war. stabbing her and she went to the hospital and she didn't have any stab wounds and there was no evidence of the attack So that was his last interaction with her. For the most part, and rightly so. Yeah the man had been married to her for fourteen years and said that adjusts spiral out of control and once Debbie is done with you can't use you for anything more she moves on and that she, lie about anything for self game show He is still married to Leonard, so they can't put on the stand to testify in gear. impeached or de discredit her because spousal privilege interesting

leonard wood at least share with the defense. He thinks that her entire story The butcher s shop and murder is totally made up when they say. Why would somebody lie about this? Why would. Somebody drag four to five men into the crosshairs and accuse them of this heinous crime and leonard mould them. She moves from one man to the next and she can't take care of herself. She can. And function in society. She can't get her own apartment, so she just me inches off all these men and uses them for room and board apparently, and he believes that her inquiring about protective custody will give her a place to live and food. They will take care of her. They will pay all the bills

Does he literally thinks that that's her entire drive? Her entire motive of this elaborate lie, MR just be taken care of by the state So here we have the defence Please lorrie moore's defense team Thinks is a unstable woman. They see that prosecutor. As is now leveraging her for these other prosecutions by they just assume that the other defence attorneys for these other men are fine all this out themselves and so nobody's really talking. And the only reason why Loi moors defence attorney is, looking into. It is because of the death threat, the letters that he received and then the tie and back to Debbie. terry. More lorries brother is now indicted and is going to be going to trial. His defence attorney sees dead,

and just immediately is like we he d get her evaluated by a psychiatrist and he wants her medical history. They know Leonard wood testify against her, but also privilege, and then she has doctor patient privilege and she refused to be examined by psychiatrist, terry more defence is of hands tied here, but they think we're will bring in will bring in some experts and try to make this work and agenda das. Terry, can we prolong this polemic hearing, because we want the judge to rule on getting her evaluated. Terry site. I've been sitting in jail. My life is going to crap. I'm losing business, I'm going to lose everything

the longer I sit here. I just want to get this trial under way, so the judge actually was on board with getting her evaluated but terry's. I know just get this on Doug brinkman, he's sitting in jail he's had enough He knows he is innocent, but he does knows that if he just tells the prosecutor tells the detectives what they want to hear. Maybe he can cut a deal. The detectives are telling Doug well nothing that Debbie's told us can be proven, but she says that they were driving around in a red car. That night. Do you know anything about this red car and dug says yep. I definitely it's a red, shabby nova, it doesn't belong to us. We borrowed it from a friend, that's the car you're. Looking for get me out of here

as if that's just going to end everything and he can walk away, but what doug didn't do ask for a deal in writing so after he gives them this information haze and its active go, hooker will think about it and they leave the job. Doug immediately causes lawyer and says I just told him something was a total lie. I wonder recant my story there not getting me Also, my bluff didn't work. He required literally as soon as they left the jail. So I don't take doug's statement about this red car as any sort of proof that it existed. Debbie Parmiter got her wish. She got up protective custody, but this is a small town and their budget is slim, so the law enforcement agencies They can put her up in a hotel, but they don't have enough manpower to have somebody watch over her, so they start pulling and other people

m, tease and firemen and stuff to watch over Debbie or drive her round on her little errands that she needed to go on so there's a cup, I m tease, one is named Kirk barons and he was also a certified gun. Dealer, so is an aim. He and he, as is F, fell licence. These guys aren't cops. There told that they have to inform the detective of any weirdness that happens while they're watching over Debbie Debbie knows that barons can do, guns or can sell guns so one day she says: hey. Can you drive me over by my friends house, it's the gleason's, now Barons knows that Debbie is a witness on this murder case and several murder cases

and he knows that her friend, Cindy Gleason is also going to be testify on this trial, we'll Debbie ass. If he can drive her over to the gleason's house, he thinks that this is just to see her friend, but they get to the house. All the lights are off and Debbie says we could just shoot at her house right now and she's, not home, no one will get hurt and parents is like why the hell would I do that. She says if it appears that she's being threatened then it makes our testimony more credible and barren says: that he doesn't want anything to do with this, he could look his license and it doesnt is not a criminal barons wall end up telling the detective She had me drive over to this house and she wanted me to do these were things but the detectives were alive whatever did we dont care they're, just not

trusted and what their daily events are, and on top of that Kirk barons is falling in love with her he's been alone most of his life. This is the first woman to kind of give him attention. so we really likes Debbie's company. So he doesn't want get her in trouble and he sure that he's the one that's going to watch over Debbie, then he hears that Cindy Gleason's home has been fired upon a few days later so shoots the house. Any thoughts on that and see here will have it as some people, there are no coincidence is, I believe. Sometimes you can tell when it's not a coincidence and is just obvious yeah. Cindy's house has been shot at cindy calls and reports. gunfire to nine one one She also tells the prosecutor that she thinks that people have been snow,

or under house people been following hearn in cars. She calls Debbie and tells her like somebody shot at my house and that's when barons here's that she's been shot at, He knows the Debbie orchestrated this because she just asked him days before to do it. He tells the detectives like hey. I don't want to get accused of doing this, I'm a fire arms dealer. I don't want to go down for this, but again taxes are involved, dont care at this point. Barons is noticing that Debbie has all the news apple articles about this murder trial in her possession and she starts getting trial transcripts and a lot of them, like boxes for in barons, can't really figure out how she's getting this stuff heap approaches

the about it. She says that the state police are providing it for her and that his partner mark, whose fellow m t has been running her round on his off days to get the stuff and, of course, IRAN's is sort of in love with Debbie, so he's getting jealous and he's like Why do you have all this stuff for the murder trial? Why do you have the police clippings? Why do you have the trial, transcripts and debbie straight up says? It's up made my homework project. I have to get all the facts some details right. This is insane we have witness intimidation or we have a trial transcripts and news recollection, so she can get her story right about a murder that she was witness to and the prosecution is on. bored with this, so terry moore's trial started again

norm. Hayes is going to be the prosecutor, but now the trial has did terry more marked canter doug bring thin and dawn eastman to the night of this? order now Debbie saying that jerry owed the moors seven thousand dollars. I guess she had said four thousand in the prior statements, but she changed this. This number just say you know this trial, is very similar to more and more a trial, but now they have debbie on the stand, testifying it's pretty. It's pretty damning because you're getting a first hand witness account of this, but the defence. For terry, more saying we need to get this woman

value waited and judges like well. She won't agreed that so the defence says we have an expert who we want to bring in and if nothing else, we want to go through her medical history and have him give his take on this. His analysis and the judge says: that's ok, but none of her medical history can be privy to the jury. She can't talk about that. This expert looks over her her medical history and he comes forward and says pretty much she's insane and she's not reliable and, of course the prosecution is, it is going to. well. This should not be admissible. He's never actually spoken to Debbie Parmentier himself he's never given her an evaluation. All he's done is just look through her medical history, so the judge takes that. He comes back stances. Here's what I'm gonna do if there's anything medical history that prevents her from observe.

king or remembering were identifying people that's relevant, but you cannot say that she's not saying or she's incompetent, but this is import. moment because She is literally the prosecution's case. Yes, right They've built their case around her testimony, and there is this whole thing well she's, not on trial. We hear that all that these persons on trial. This person is well yeah in this case. That's a huge issue. If there there are real questions here about her mental health and how actually is very relevant to weather, should be using her testimony or not, and then that, if I can't even look at that and bring it in, as you know, part of their defence part of their case there, early being tall. Hey. She gets the server and say all this stuff. But

can't really hit her with anything the impeach witnesses and discredit witness testimony all the time, but in this case or in these cases, does seem to be happening. The judge says this is: how gonna go down and that's what happens. Yeah. What she says goes on she's allowed to testify, and even with this expert witness that totally discrediting her well you can only do so much so the jury, only here's a partial. evaluation of Debbie, and they have to take her testimony as is, and the jury will be told, to deliberate for terry more. They go back to the jury room A lot of the jurors seem very kind of agitated that I took so long. They want this done and and up deliberating for nine days and they keep

knowing the judge. We can't come to a dick consensus and the judges, like you just keep doing it. They're like we want a weakened off, we ve been deliberating for so long and terry moors. Defence turning saying my man's in jail screw your weekend. You keep deliberating

and the judge says no. No, let them have the weekend off and its obvious that there are having trouble with the the verdict and Debbie who's. The star witness understands that they might find him not guilty. So Debbie goes back to her friend, mark and barons, says I think my apartment needs to be shot at. I think my life needs to be threatened to make my testimony more credible. You just listen to the first part of who killed jerry Tobias to hear the second part. Please stay tuned were

using it next sunday. You won't want to miss the conclusion to this case

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