From school grades to fitness trackers, we're all being ranked and rated on a daily basis. This is having a huge impact on our happiness and preventing us from living our lives to the fullest. Can giving up on grades radically improve our wellbeing?
For an even deeper dive into the research we talk about in the show visit happinesslab.fm
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How happiness lab listeners. I want to tell you about a new podcast. I think you're, like it's called the last archive and it features one of my favorite new Yorker writers. The Harvard historian Jill Uproar Jill asks the big question who killed truth. She looks for clues and events across the twentieth century from a brutal death in Burma to the invention of the lighted factor to the release of the polio vaccine. The last archive is, unlike any podcast you ve heard before it brings history. The life with archival tapes, intrepid field reporting, an old, timely radio drama reenactments. The last archive unfurled, like a classic nineteen thirties mystery, but takes on the big issues of today. Wouldn't you like to know who killed truth then check out the last hour. Five brought you buy, Pushkin industries have included a trailer at the end of this episode. You can subscribe today on Apple spot,
I refer, you get your podcast. I want you to think back to your school days for a second. What was the worst great you ever got. How did it make you feel and now think about the best grade? How is that,
great, even decades after graduation, we can still remember what those marks felt like, and it makes sense that
reed's affect us so deeply because they are important. I mean
They're kind of synonymous with education: aren't they well, it turns out not really
ACT, creates a relatively new invention for all
seven centuries schools got by without them
professor myself, I find it incomprehensible, I'm
generation after generation of scholars completed their studies without anything akin to a great point average. How good my
predecessors tell students apart? How did they sort pupils
worked really really hard from those who just founded it back in
seventeen? Eighty five, all that changed, so we have specific Karen found for us today. I region
he went on a pilgrimage to especial spot at Yale, where I teach the binary Library in order to see
important document one? That's captain
inside a copy of the declaration of independence and one of the oldest pieces of literature in the world.
I can just I wash my hands, but I can just open it and it's like not going to break it. I was able to hold the
theory of as restyled seventh president of Yell University. So so then pour empire is right here on April fifth, seventeen
five he recorded the details of an exam he'd conducted that Spring Tuesday, with fifty eight of his students
colleague MIKE Moran, pointed me to a short but revolutionary, footnote twenty optimum. Sixteen second up to me,
twelve inferior worries, Bonnie Ten, but
in the unlikely event the or someone who doesn't speak Latin. Let me translate for you, sir,
Else was splitting his students up into four different grades from optimum best to procure is worse with this tiny footnote, just a few lines
its argued? That styles invented the four point, o grading system we still use today
I mean of meeting its like a single line, his hand, written text and the bay
Thing in education shaped our history. It's right there in my
and I got to hold the first ever grades.
Nowadays, we don't just have GPS, we have
say: tease and Jerry's in advanced placement tests and everything in between its estimated,
that the average american child takes more than a hundred standardized tests, but we
just great and education, we
think ratings are a good incentive for all our behaviors enemy.
Were constantly being evaluated
from the number of stars and our are driver rating to our posit
many percentages on Ebay to perform
review on the job we seem to
of being measured and when
yet good grades. It feels great all those
it places the gold stars, those little smartphone vibrations. We had our goal. They encourage
to become better more virtuous people or do they
are chasing. These incentives really is good for our happiness, as we think.
Our minds, are constantly telling us what to do to be happy, but
if our minds are wrong. What if I'm
I lied to us. Leading us away from all will really make us happy. The good news is the understanding the signs of the mind in point us all back in the right direction. You are listening to the happiness lab with doktor lorry centres.
The first hammer and boxed it. I felt kind of like a dweeb. This is Emma Lord. She rights for bus
that come back in two thousand fourteen she broke off,
I couldn't run for a little while, while I was waiting for a fracture to heal all that's kind of how the whole thing started, I was I was pretty much
not to run for like six weeks entity that kind of seed like a nightmare Emma was worried. She wouldn't be able to stay in shape while she was injured so her money,
but her a new step tracking device a fit bit hoping it would make her feel better and keep moving
while she held. But I hear you know the first day I use did it did that thing
where it buzzed, when I got to ten thousand steps and how is like, like this, is such a nice viewing it, I just got
invalidation from it and then I was caught a hook to Emma quickly expect.
Asked what science shows happens when we start greeting our performance with incentives like a fit bit buzz
Humans are like little lab rats when it comes to external rewards. Those buzzes
good grades and gold stars work really well, they change our behaviour quickly, but often more quickly than we
expect. I guess after that first day, at the baseline goal was to always hit the ten thousand steps, and then you know it started getting to this threshold for your like. Oh, if I could do ten thousand, I can do fifteen, and that was when
started seeing the problem
external rewards, like the buzz of a fit bit, are so powerful, but they often
work a little too well. I think the first
moment I felt myself becoming a little bit
did you, it was. I realized I was suddenly getting on the metro two hours before work, just like could get in the ten thousand steps before work
because I just like wanted that validation like really early in the day, so it's gonna be like off my conscience, which is like such a weird thing to think about because, like nobody was going at the police for it, gonna come for me. If I didn't hit
thousand steps that day, but I just like
better after it had bunched. The scary thing was at the fit, but what
just affecting Emma's happiness. It also started affecting Emma's relationships when I
I got a new job once and there is a fit bid
Leader, born to see who had the best apps and some guy in the office had like thirty thousand, and I went. I hope that we can to crushed it
and I came and the next day- and I was like- I got thirty five thousand and like nobody was pleased with me- it's like not the way to make the level of
petition Emma experience with her fitted.
Reminiscent of another time in her life when she felt super competitive back in school
I came from one of the most complex
school districts in that country is always like one of those things are every move like the hunger to humans and there. So I definitely do think that this is related to that in some ways. I definitely was one of those kids who is very, very manic about my grades in two thousand and fifteen
I am assured her experiences in an article on bustle entitled now
teen, very real emotional struggles of having a fit bit or does your fit, but have you I am
thought. It would be in related to other people who are kind of going through the motions on that too and weirdly. I got more response from that article been. Maybe anything I've read novels entire site because you know it is such a relate of all kind of mania, especially because you know, I think,
Who are so confused about where that compulsion is coming from that
It's almost a relief to be like, oh, not the only crazy one but display
Her own experiences with fit bit and the response to her peace,
years later, Emma
till tracking, you know, even after the foot, injury healed, Eyelike found myself still
Hunting, even when I was running that was something I'd, never really felt. The need to count before just to lake have that
number there. Until I know exactly how many steps I had an a day, I mean it
for years it I'm still doing it
Emma experience shows that seemingly innocuous benchmarks concur
we change our behaviour for the worse.
But they're more insidious than we realise F,
external reward, has the power to turn love into hate and virtue in device?
They can even relentlessly play on our most primal fears the happiness lab we'll be right back.
Where do you stand on Obamacare? It's one of the most
early divisive issues in U S politics today, I bet you have a pretty soon
opinion about it? So what do you think it would take to shift that opinion significantly? Would you
leave me if I said I could manipulate your view with some,
arbitrary incentive like giving you a fake grade. Let me explain,
back in eighteen, sixty one robber, Boston,
as colleagues surveyed more than two hundred students on a couple hot button issues there
whether America should legalise gambling and if the
she should adopt socialized medicine, a few weeks later, all
participants were assigned to re essays about these issues, but- and this is crucial- they were asked to defend. The very
view they had staunchly opposed people
viewed gambling as an evil had to reign Supreme.
Of casino honours. Those
saw socialize medicine is creeping. Communism were told to act as its cheerleaders. The scientists collected the essay
but didn't even bother reading them, boss
colleagues knew that the simple act of writing about the opposite view was likely to see
in everyone's opinions, changing their mind slightly, but what effect would smacking? In
which were agreed on those essays, have the next day the recent
was handed them back. Randomly
a third of them in a third of them. A d and a third
no great at all,
We are seeing their marks students
the original survey again. So what happened? Students
got no grade or a bad greed. Adee changed their minds a bit, but some
being much more incredible happened to the group that got nay, remember the creature
even totally randomly the agreed it S.
What better or more thoroughly research than the others. Nevertheless, students who got that fake
shifted their views more significantly than those who got a bad grade. The simple act of getting there a
students to change their core beliefs. Isn't that chilling views we?
hold dear, can be swayed by the simple act of evaluation, even
The evaluation is totally bogus. Bullets play a little game. It's called onscreen,
the letters I'm going to give you a series of letters and you
turn them into an english word. Here is an easy one. Just three letters ready k o eight times up. Did you get? The answer? Is book? Here's a harder one. Five letters ready, see: L p a.
Time's up the answer place and now and even harder one. It's got nine letters ready, o n v, o t you, I l e time's up.
The answer evolution think about how much you enjoyed playing this game unless you're a huge puzzle, fiend
the last one with nine letters might have been a bit taxing the first one with three letters. Probably wasn't that great either.
It was a little too easy to be fun.
That the one in the middle was just right when playing a game like this. We prefer puzzles that are hard but doable.
Those are the ones we tend to enjoy the most. The same holds for little kids
back in the seventies child psychologist, Susan, harder tested, sixth graders on Anagrams, just like this, she gave them super easy ones. Would just three letters
and ones with six letters that were pretty tough for children their age. What did she find overall? The kids were happiest
When pushing the boundaries of their abilities, they even smiled,
most twice as much when doing the harder puzzles, but what
then, when you throw grades into the mix to test that harder, told a different group of sixth graders that the puzzles were part of a school.
Their size and that they would be graded on their performance. The result, it's actually heartbreaking, here's how harder described it. Children working for grades, chose significantly easier. Anagrams
for not only did subjects respond below their optimal level, but they manifested less pleasure and verbal ized more anxiety when working for grades, the kids did worse, felt worse and aid
Lower grades can take experiences that our minds normally fine, really enjoyable and turn them.
To a source of dread, my
yes, memory of this was actually when I seventh grade this is,
see George, she spent her whole career.
Rising student suffering from severe academic stress. She seen first hand how
AIDS can become a dangerous obsession, how they Robson
of joy and even worse, I was
to a private middle school outside of Cleveland Ohio, where I'm from and
One day, a girl, I know, was crying at her locker right as in the middle class, you kind of snuff out I'd love to go to the bathroom, and she was there alone cry
and I asked her what was going on and she said she had gotten her first be and
He was so worried she would not be able to get into the school she wanted to go to and she had already picked
whatever Ivy league. She wanted to go to that time at eleven or twelve, and it was
hard to see that that she was
distraught and so worried about and really terrified. I mean she was crying and almost like shaking about what this would mean for her future.
And was the first time I realized? I really wanted to help people and stew.
And growing adults learned what is important to them today, train
as the founding director of the good life centre- a Yell university Tracy and I teamed up to
fell at this new resource on campus in order to improve
student, while being note the irony here, the very collar,
for GPS were invented now in place,
crazy, see as well as a host of other staff members to deal with the fall out of that two hundred year old system.
That yes, there's a long, long weightless to see mental health counselor here and that's really want
the purposes of the good life centres to create a space for this overflow
where to students go, and they need to learn how to manage this daily fear. The stately stress this daily anxiety, and this isn't just an ivy league problem or a yell problem. This is the thing that colleges are seeing nation wide re right. Absolutely,
this is an american thing. This is our country and how we are approaching education and its really
detrimental and is breaking students down. It's one thing to feel a little.
Asked about getting your first be or taken
bit neurotic about missing your fit bit buzz, but that's not what
college. Mental health centres aren't just dealing with a few obsessive stressed out: students we are facing a real epidemic,
In a national survey, more than forty percent of college students reported there to depress to function
More than half of current students say they feel hopeless a lot of the time more than
sixty percent said they experienced overwhelming anxiety.
More than one. In ten say they ve seriously considered suicide. In the last year- and these are not numbers
should be seeing in this young population. This is when their brains are continuing to form their starring effect.
Who they are what they want to do in the world. This isn't just a surface Lovell amount
of stress or worry it's really. The sphere
east reaction. Just like
experienced and seventh grade this fear about what it will mean for your future, really far down the line which most disturbing about,
All this fear and stress is that how it's making students feel its affecting students, physical, how the basic way
bodies function, and so this constant low level stress has a trickle down effect of physical effects. Like are higher blood pressure. Higher heart rate, quicker, breathing
which is the activation of our sympathetic nervous system that
is designed to help us fight, often animal or flight.
Run away from an animal in a very
direct way with our evolution like a tiger is attacking US base rate rate. There is a tiger in the Bush and we need to respond so our muscles tense, as if we're actually getting ready to hit something a runaway away. Heart rate goes up. Our blood pressure goes up.
Order to get the blood to our muscles to activate those muscles and allow
of functions, decrease that we do.
From eating survival like we don't need digestion, we don't need reproduction and we don't need a lot of major systems to survive in the moment and there's a ton of research that shows regular fight or flight with
causes chronic stress in the body has a trickle down effect of health impacts. The problem
as we see this system activated
students see these little lions and tigers and bears behind every bush.
Daily modern lives. So
like a tiger or a bare it's an exam or a transcript or an application. That's actually causing the same reaction so Anita.
To Students- and you ask about their stress responses, especially chronic stress responses- they often talk about headaches.
Muscle tension by just of issues even reproduction,
sexual issues and
don't realize untilled they're getting.
Process. This biological prospects explain its actually chronic stress, causing this trickle down effect of
the goal issues. It's really problematic
especially because I see them
that students or wrapping up their sense of value and purposes a human in their graves there not just being created in their classrooms, are being created with everything from
instagram likes to their put their fit bit is telling them absolutely,
heard. Some students doesn't always going like. Why did this picture get enough legs? Or why did this black? I stop getting legs after so many
days or whatever. You know any app
It is designed to support us in a certain activity like a running app.
Even meditation, apps rights or even
to be quite headed of even meditation. Apps are competitive. Now yeah, it's really crazy. Actually having opened a happen awhile because of this I mean even seems to come back to my class mindfulness class at a teacher at Yale are talking about themselves as being coordinated
bad monitors Tracy,
I have had lots of conversations about what we can do to fix things, but we both worry. It's going
take more than a wellness centre. It's going to take me
structural changes to how we and our institutions think about external rewards, the the culture
The system has to change as well, especially for the school that invented this for
point grading scale. We invented this process. We are,
in a great positions. Try to untangle that a little bit and to give
a new generation of students a fighting chance at being
functional and happy and successful, but that kind of change
really hard, we might be
need to abandon the ways we educated students since the time of as
let's get started
Psychology and good life
today through is just a quick introduction to the horse
have been listening to the happiness lab for a while. You know I teach
ass at Yale called psychology in the good life, an entire class devote
to teaching students how to be happier over a thousand.
Students and wrong the first time I taught it. This is all want is class, which is that
I actually want to help you. I also find ways to overcome the Strasbourg is not healthy, but even an ivy league
ass, devoted to making students happier had to
The one thing that I knew would make my students the most miserable these things. I waited you are read it all. We're gonna talk about razors nationwide October. I have to give you one. Is your wages or did I wish I'd? Do that's right, despite everything I just told you, I still had to
read my students and while showing them the research that grace dont work the way we think, but I
tried to give them away outlay you'll. Let me just last Thursday, when they re gravely now. I know you have a mechanism to support this, because you may have arisen, as has been seen to clasp Kennedy, credit d
is the yield version of past fail. You get a great
but there are no a minuses and b plus just credit or no credit, but I still couldn't for students to give up their grades. They had to elect to take my class credit d of there,
an accord. I did a lot to try to convince them why my hair,
Everything went along the horse suggesting resembling done you
learn less Europe works
In your have you been everything this force is supposed to fighting against what I have to provide. So
the glass petty seriously. I know how many
it is actually took the class credit d. I dont know because proof,
there at Yale are allowed to know it still considered a stigma.
Student to choose to take a class without a letter great, so they get to keep it a secret. Two hundred
yours after yell President as Restyle created grades. This is how deep his beliefs go
they're so entrenched there like a religion,
was starting to lose faith in this system, but to find a path forward. I had to talk to one of the few true heretics
who are willing to raise their voices and fight.
But if you're asking should we just get rid of grades? Yes,
I mean Grange poison, everything they touch the happiness lab we'll be back in a moment.
Writer Alfie Code has been America's fiercest critic of our grading obsession for decades. This could be
whether Lucian, you have to change the way you think about parenting, because how many of you out there have offered bribes to get your kids to stop crying hist
the warning about the dangers of external rewards got him invited on Oprah twice in one year back in the nineties. You think ginger being punished by the rewards in the long run right, but in the short run it works as right off his classic book. Punished by rewards will just reprinted to markets twenty fifth anniversary
three. Twenty five years longer than my college, students have been alive, Alfie spin railing against the creek,
as restyled for more than a quarter
Problematic because of a larger phenomenon of using extrinsic inducements, doggie. Biscuits, carrots and sticks choose your metaphor to try to make students, proof
warm rather than Austin.
Tickly. Engaging students in dealing with question
the problem is and projects that they find interesting and work
Fear curiosity and the three
facts of graves overall are one
Undermining students. Interest in learning to the bed
to my knowledge. Every study that has ever compared students with and without grades in terms of their excitement about the learning has found a negative effect from grades
boy challenging tasks. If they have
students to try to avoid challenging tasks if they have an
told it to do that, they will then pick the short.
Book or them
familiar topic for their project, that's not me
austere lazy. It's not me.
Their snowflakes its beak,
This system has led them to risk
rationally to an irrational demand. I mean if it
The point is to get an aid. Of course, you are more likely to do that. If you do is over easier
Let me turn around and blame the students for not being motivated when the
rating system has elicited a very predictable response and the third effective grades, instead of
students to think in a shall, wear or more superficial way there less.
Likely to really press
to say how do we know that's true or isn't that contradictory to what we did last week
There are more likely to say who, after all, this is gonna, be on the test.
And again, the problem is not with students is with the fact of giving great.
Search, finds that when you get rid of things like rays and indeed all rewards kids,
tediously pig, harder things to do so
you can't improve the system by merely tweaking the way grades or doc. You ve gotta, get rid of
which a number of schools have done, including some colleges and high schools have even more middle schools in elementary schools. When I first met
coffee at his home in Massachusetts, I took in the present a photocopy of that as
styles diary entry. I saw back at Yale the first grades ever I thought he might get a kick out of seeing it
didn't realize how strong his reaction would be this
like showing you the first paddle that was used her too, to hurt a kid
nothing. I look at frowning. This is not so
I treat her so as it relic as an educator. That's a tough thing to hear
obvious placing the grades, I give my students on spectrum that includes the horrifying practice of corporal punishment, beating my students,
that's one thing. I've learned from studying this topic for thirty years:
rewards like punishments are ultimately about power. If, if I, if I threaten you
with a punishment, you do this or I'm gonna make you suffer obvious on trying to control you. But if I say if you jump through these hopes, here's the goody I'll give you
It should be obvious, but it isn't always that that's just as much about control because its Trickly, you know, because it
captain Sugar Sirop, we
Often don't realize this is just as much about doing too.
Rather than working with healthy argues that
tend to see. Motivation as a single entity
when in reality, there are two distinct forces which drive us one, intrinsic the other extrinsic, the first as a hero, but the second is somewhat.
Villain, intrinsic motivation and general just means you get a kick out of whatever is you're doing it. It means
enjoy doing something for its own sake. That can be reading a book. Solving a problem writing code, painting
picture, helping someone who needs to help anything extremes.
Motivation means you do so
think this fruit for something extreme
two or outside of the task itself, such as giving a reward that reward could be money, a grade, a certificate that could be praise good shop. That's just a verbal doggie disk
or fear of punishment, which is another kind of extrinsic motivation. So the question I mean: can you could see some?
really wanted to motivate kids thinking was there are already interested in learning. One right add an additional reward. On top of that, you don't like you for two reasons.
Should be better than what I write. The problem is that
First of all, you can't motivate someone other than yourself and the more
you try, the more you pay
paradoxically undermine the very thing you're trying to promote so, for example, about
Doesnt studies have found the chill
and who are rewarded or praised or less
generous than their peers. When you say
good job? I really like you shared your browning
Miss Diane you're, so gender is good for you that kid just because
a little more selfish because you talk
The Diane's feelings are irrelevant. What matters is what you'll get from helping, in this case a patronising
pat on the head, if you wanted to destroy a child's interest in reading, you should give the kid a prize for reading a book. A death
nebula, active and people don't like to be manipulated, be it
principally devalues the thing for which you got the reward. Now the kid figures while reading must sock if it's something
they have to bribe me to do. You have re framed it in the person said that
I did so remarkable to watch little kids, who have not yet been graded and raided and rank
so on following their interests. You're, looking at
intrinsic motivation in its
diluted, form where little kids can't wait to figure out
how to make sense of those squiggles on the restaurant menu
they want to know, as my daughter asked, or their bones in my Tommy me
asking us until we give them down
he biscuits for six
as answering the question, and then they start asking a different question, which is how do we have to know this and working
anyone to treat our children are, students are employees, and sometimes even ourselves, in effect, like lab animals,
it's not just dehumanizing. The region
it shows its counter. Productive, not merely ineffective.
The students I teach at Yale are far removed from the innocent children. Alfie describes after you
of asian bees. They have internalize the
suit of grades. As the prime motivation for paying attention in class, I work
the idea that they should learn because it brings and pleasure and stimulation is long forgotten they
we down a path leading them away from their own happiness,
Question is not how much achievement do they
under their belts, its
happened to their souls is what,
happened to the desire to figures stuff out that all human beings start with
of them or joyless. So
We are in this situation where most educational systems are using grades. What's a solution, if you're in individual teacher, you do what you can in the long run by organizing a mobilizing your appears to change the structure rather
treating graze as effective nature like the weather. That's just always
gonna be with us, and we have to cope with. It
it's a political decision and there are plenty of pilot projects and school showing that you got
we can do without great, but their students do much better without them
two Alfie more and more, I started to believe it is possible to go back to a world without grades to education.
Like before as restyle started, this new creed Alfie understand
That is a long road ahead, but he believes the rest.
Your is worth it. He even things are
The mental values goes like equal.
The and intrinsic worth depend on it,
think your primary goal should be to help everyone to succeed.
If you had to use grades than you would want everyone to get aids. The idea that there is a little more
distribution, a bell curve.
Since in the head of a lot of instructors, even when they're, not grading on a curve rating
a curve. Is immoral.
Well, there's no other word for it to say that, no matter how we
everyone does, some of you cannot get the best grade
suggest that it's a war of all against all
the more we tend to see life in adversarial terms where I can succeed only if you fail the more
all of us are dragged out of failure, even the winners ultimately wounds. So what should you take away from this episode? First, the external rewards
no they're cracked up to be adding in a grade or a fit buzz might change. Her
in the short term, but it will cost you dearly.
Pursuing success on those terms can rob you of the joy. You may experience in your studies, Hobbes or even career, and that means we need to find
is to return to our internal rewards,
because you enjoy the sensation, not
some arbitrary number on an app taken?
ass to satisfy your intellectual curiosity not to
an honourable and make a pot costs for the fun of it not taught. The charts
as people and as a society we need to find
He is to reduce these systems of external rewards that we ve surrounded ourselves with its the
way to return to our childlike joy of learning just for
sake just cause, it's fun just cause. We dig it
and if you want to completely great free way to learn about the other lies of your mind, then I really
hope you'll come back for the next season of the happiness live with me, doctor lorry Santa
The happiness lab is color in and produced by Ryan Delhi. The show is mixed and mastered by Evan, Vila edited by Julia Barton fact, checking by Joseph Fragment and far reaching music was composed by Zachary Sober special thanks to be all about. Carly Mc Liore, Heather, Fain, Maggie Taylor, my acquainted and Jacob Wastward happiness lab is brought. You buy Pushkin industries, any doktor lorry centres.
A strange thing happened to me in the library, while back I needed to pick up a few books.
This was before the quarantine, a question.
Was nagging me.
It had been nagging me for a long time who killed truth.
This truth problem, it isn't just bad its deadly.
It's also way older than it might seem this mystery its historical
just and I'm a historian at Harvard and staff failure at the new Yorker has been a lot.
Time, trying to solve mysteries like this one.
So anyway, I was at the library
everything seem normal, Hum swiped my card
the elevator down to the basement.
Upon volumes of the shelves, and then
I saw it
something I never seen before down here.
At the end of the rope
hidden in the shadows
was a sign on the door tarnished breastplate
We barely make out the words it read the letter
everybody, tv and radio confuse hello.
hello, how are you
no one's there
the voice from the past voices,
We waited period prior, woe heralded the discovery which assured and who want to ban time was granted in here
he's lying before Corona virus, a congressional debate about the government's role in developing a vaccine. Is there any other term for them as socialized medicine, old horror, movies therein? Here too
punch cards from the forgotten history of the National Data Center network, referred to as being that work is now and operate in record's records of bird songs,
considered America, foremost songbird, hermits rush
all these voices from the past sound
Nobody is heard for decades
maybe somewhere in this vast last archive this corridor of the mind, find what
an answer to that question who
I decided to start a podcast? It's called the last archive hotel,
hundred years, a history of America.
In our arguments about truth and evidence. If you wanted
I found Mimi back here. I'll leave the door unlocked the last archived coming
brought to you by Pushkin industries,
Transcript generated on 2021-12-13.