Steven Hassan (@CultExpert) is a licensed mental health counselor who has been educating the public about mind control, brainwashing, and destructive cults since 1976. He's the author of Combating Cult Mind Control: The Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults and the founder of the Freedom of Mind Resource Center. This is part two of a two-part episode. Check out part one here!
What We Discuss with Steven Hassan:
- What to do if you suspect you've been targeted for recruitment by a cult.
- How to tell if your friends and family are being affected by a cult.
- What you should and shouldn't say to someone you're trying to rescue from a cult.
- How phobia indoctrination keeps a cult's potential defectors tethered to its undue influence by fear (and how Steven helps people break this indoctrination).
- Why Steven is optimistic that we've reached a turning point at which the bulk of humanity is waking up to understanding the psychology of undue influence.
- And much more...
Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://jordanharbinger.com/238
Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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welcome to the shell, I'm Jordan Harbinger, as always, I'm here with producer Jason, to feel about
the Jordan Harbinger, shall we go the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant, an interesting people? We turned their
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Your own life.
Those around you and today is part two of our key
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one from Stephen House on this issue
continuation of that episode, lot more cult
I've gone on lately.
He memories are Netflix explosives, Scientology, there's, whew YO gathers self help, seminars
business Cults, Emmeline Stuff Cross Red Cross, maybe not quite right.
But he was interviewed very cross with documentary, so noisy Yanza, pretty funny. Never now, I know well defined
cults, of course, and we have former called member and current called expert, Stephen Hassan in far too his book,
don't mind control so interesting. It's all about the manipulative practices. Cults use, advanced hypnosis
all the way down to blackmail this stuff,
is crazy. The fact that it comes from intelligence agencies and things like that today,
and you get into what happens if you or somebody love is being recruited by a call. What to do how to get people out how his cult rescues, work,
is so much here that we are
the two parts- I hope you enjoy this and by the way
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cults. What Stephen hasn't? Ok, so we
just left off saying cult, mind control, Might
been created by
Korean CIA, which even
coming out of my mouth sounds like I've. Just watched too much. You know info wars, conspiracy, theories deaf, but that it was created as a counterpart
the north korean regime, which have
in their makes sense to me, which is that that's the best minds.
well I've ever seen in the currency. I was, of course, train and found a buy in part by the
American CIA. Soon in this weird roundabout way, the
I can see I was instrumental in creating. I can't leave him
and is called mind. Control techniques well spent
quickly the Mooney mind, control techniques but, of course, mind control techniques or developed many years earlier they were used
Hitler in World war. Two they were bit
for world war. One
then an evolution, but the the
in terms of my direct entry into this, was
spare meant or some type of of creature, of this
this joint programme
between the CIA and the Korean CIA, using the monies to influence people to be very right wing. I think it's
even scarier that the moon called, though call you wherein the monies they only
papers and gun manufacturers. That is a very scary combination. Somehow the
they, the patent for the Thompson, Sub Machine gun
saw rifles its it is
It's very scary and I was
linking this morning, just about how many people were being indoctrinated on line to believe, there's, gonna be a civil war, and so they should stockpile
assault. You know rifles,
with automatic keep away,
It is for the war, that's about to come.
The term. That's really frightening, well yeah
mean that some correct compound type stuff right there. You are ever that item. If I remember that you certainly remember that that was was contacting my congressmen, an attorney General Reno, saying I'd like to offer my expertise cause you don't know what you're doing and you
because a lot of violence- and they said we ve- got to
snow problem here yeah and they happened to meet the former.
Leave negotiator for the F b I doing
a taping about documentary, and he read my book soon. We sat down together and he said I wish I had known you back when he failed
RO badly. I'm sure I mean,
I can imagine you reaching out saying hey I'd like to offer my assistants you're gonna end up with violence and then saying we got there and then
but immediately to giant compound on fire FBI, Swat tank, rolling,
A garage and bunch of people burning alive in a building that totally didn't need to happen. Exact
and I had access to family members who wanted to speak to your loved ones. Inside the compound the F b I were INA didn't allow them to do that. Witches would have been my one of my many strategies that in having a really
sexy voiced female negotiator with David caress. That would have been smart
as well. I had a whole bunch of cigarettes
Questions which I later did talk at Harvard about
the things the FBI and the eight year did wrong and what they should have done instead, which is online on my site. I will definitely linked to that nation. It's I'm curious del. The sexy voice negotiator. Is that because we're playing to Croatia's ego in that's what we know rode away here, we are all part of his his thing
was that he he said he only. He could have sex with all the women. Even the married women couldn't have sex with their husbands.
He even had sex with a ten year old. After part of the abuse there buddy
He felt like he was Jesus so and the F b I looked it
having said this, is a con artists, so they thought that wonder. Gas was
was shot and that he would, you know, come out and save himself. He didn't understand that he wanted.
To be monitored. That was part of the plan rights it looking at college,
leaders as con man. Isn't quite the right angle
we're not looking at her somebody's.
completely. The wrong thing in this is
Is this this because to me it looks like a con. Man is somebody who knows deep down who kind of they turn off. There
microphone and they go or their video
when they go off all right. Let's go to Mcdonald's and sick of this vague in hippy self help Bs Gimme, my pride
jack and I want to go to the strict club at the knees in not that these called leaders are doing the same thing, but they also at some point, are more of a bullet
not like this other identity and their that says. Ok. This is just how I make money right right so
mean a con artist, wants the size up the mark figure.
The angle get in make the money or make the conquest and move on.
Current leaders are different creature altogether and most colleagues
We were in a cold themselves or in a cold like family system, where they internalized
a very unhealthy sense of self very narcissistic, often psychopath, illogical,
and they make the mistake, but they have to because their life is oriented through surrounding themselves, with people to us to give them narcissistic supply of
themselves with yes, people who don't
say you're wrong or you lie that worried by the way you prophesied something completely different people and not gonna. Do you know like that?
new prophecy. They just eject everybody. They just fire them
yeah, so they have no reality testing mechanism within their sphere of of of reality, and so it did
it's more and more bent over time. Let's talk about you,
four components of mind control. You ve got some pretty interesting,
actually a lotta components of this, but there's four should have basic overarching right. So cognitive dissonance theory is the first one that I wrote down here. Can we go through this? Is this I find is like the meat and potatoes of how your brain essentially, how
Personality gets taken over by this person or this cult. Well,
let me explain it this way, Jordan, I I've come up with something I called the bite model of mind, control bees,
and were behaviour control. I stay.
for information control than theirs thought, control and emotional control,
I have some very
your under each one of these, but I can
into this model from the unfair, stingers cognitive dissonance model which he wrote about in the fifties.
when studying a, U R foe called and what he paused
is that people have faults, feelings and behaviors,
and they seek to
choices and do things to reduce dissonance between the three of them sobering.
Ample if you do something behaviorally extreme
strong movement to rationalize and justify why it was a good thing to do and to feel ok about it.
So when I was studying all the models of brainwashing in mind, control the lift and model of singer model, the Leeuwen model it just didn't make
easy sense, but when I, when I thought about adding information control, the first fingers,
dissonance model and came up with the bite model. It all fell into place where
people can really understand quickly and easily weather
any relationship or group is destructive. My
control, one so kind
the dissidents. Just in this case to your point, the extra
Behavior requires extreme rationalization. So if I've given up my,
life savings to some Korean
I who says that he's the Messiah I dont go man, I've
a huge mistake, I gave my life's savings to the screen. Guy, who says he's the Messiah, and now that's
checking out what I do is go. Ok,
I'm having a moment of panic here. What I need to do is figure out
the reasons why I believe this korean guys, the Messiah, because otherwise that means I just gave away my life's savings to occult leader, and I don't really want to believe that, because that's
make me highly uncomfortable somebody jump through some hoops
so it's not quite that a rational, at least in the mind of a Mooney. What they are trying to think about is
few hammered out or a question
Bout Moon, the doctrine which is called the divine principle or the organizational policy. This
evil, spirits trying to invade your mind or Satan is trying to test you so
alienated from doing any type of thought,
process that begin
to analyze anything, you are trained to do thoughts.
helping, which is one of the that the techniques ended
she of the bite model. Your turn
into shut down any critical thinking and reinforce your called identity. So, in the case of my father, who
I read in the Washington Post one day, the moon had an m16 gun factory in South Korea and thought. Ah now I have the proof they get my son out and wake him up at this,
she's, not them aside, the moon isn't the Messiah and he called me up and spit Steve
come to how could the soil urban m16 gun factory we're from Queens New York? I should add- and I
started immediately saying, in my mind, crush Satan crush Satan, Gloried, Evan Peace on earth, colored them based on true parents to parents, your parents cassettes.
Was trained to do citizens alike surrounding this issue.
this being the engine
persecution, random Satan right. This is the adult.
equivalent of like putting your fingers in your ears and going Lala lie, can hear you right. It's just that type of
never thought of that one, but I'm gonna is use that should not go ahead.
Seriously. My father's intention was to wake me up and to get me to critically think, but the way he delivered
the message it forced me to to do this. Mine
troll technique on myself. That propelled me deeper
said the involvement and
me more alienated against him and distrustful of him. Other elements
thought control, I see this in a lot of you self help called those are the ones I am most familiar with. Just as that, so many people trying
it made to do these things and sometimes
I go to accord and quote leadership class like I mentioned before, and it turns out to be some bs like
in the past years and they they love.
making up their own work,
four things they love using specific jargon seal, say something like well
but there's another. Well, that's your racket! That's your vets! You're rakkeed that you do
you'd, and it's like you're trying to make yourself you're trying to make me wrong and that all these weird sort of twisted language,
you ve gotta have a friggin dictionary together to talk with these people after
right. So Robert Liftin, when he was doing his research on chinese communist brainwashing in the fifties and
His seminal book thought reform in the psychology of pluralism in his face,
Chapter twenty two we outlined eight criteria, brainwashing and one was loaded language and its its thought terminal
in cliches wowie, he wrote about it that it's it's some
that's a known only inside the group.
no meaning to anyone outside of a group of people, think it's Giles show stupid, but it commit it shuts down
type of understanding of reality.
so in the moon is, for example, if you had any type of of
relationship problem. They could be reduced,
to either a chapter two problem or a keen able problem. Ok, what what's a chance
The problem in the moon CALL Moon says that Satan seduced Eve sexually an impression
did her and got hurt to seduce Adam and that's how all of you humankind fell away from God,
Garden of Eden.
Feelings of impulses to of sexuality is
a chapter, two problem cases, Glade hook,
I was nineteen years old when I was not at home,
look is happy or two at that point. My all life was chapter two in the end, but you had a train yourself to do thought. Stopping you know me
dating nothing. You can never be alone with a woman you couldn't go. Women are kiss a woman at all because you know they could
The same could use her to seduce you
and it was just visa lovelier, yeah,
I call control technique for the keen eye
a problem. The biblical story is that keen basically killed
his brother able and
and says that that basically use
You need to surrender to your central figure, able figure the matter what
they tell you to do. Even if it goes against your conscience, its God's will
somehow the restoration will take place so
retraining blind submission to to your superior,
by using that loaded term but
point pointers. Words should help us understand reality better. It should work
In our view,
widen their ability to connect the dots with what is but
control calls its all about construction and make
things tighter, where you're in this ideologically total list web of of control, yeah,
see this with even modern day sort of ISIS, Al Qaeda infidels, apostates. Anyone who does not agree with you infidel anyone is not Europe specific.
and shove Islam right like there's those might have wider meaning when they were originally in the Koran, but really now they're, just kind of designed to be, if you're, not sitting in this room. Listening to back her
bag daddy or whatever from ices than year of one of these things and those people just broadly are worthy of death because Mohammed, whatever, because Islam Right
a radical branches on. So you see things
that happening break it can be really subtle in a lotta version
in North Korea and in any sort of country where there they have a really high level of control. They have special words for outside or not just foreigner, that's a common where they have words that are like pejorative and they embrace. Basically, everything that has to do with anything. That's not what say North Korea Friendly is just this giant pejorative word that has to do
yes, so it's about the map of a mind, control called, is
black and white all or nothing good versus evil.
Very simplistic and
the map is reality
post to it's: it's it's the script
a reality by the right, not a perfect one. When you're in a mind, control call, you told the dogmas, perfected, scientific, frightened,
few question at the there's something
inherently wrong with you that you can't see the truth with a capital tee
right- and this is one reason why it is called Doctrine- is vague right. It's not it's not supposed to be understood or studied rigorously it supposed to help you
regard your now.
And called to identity, limit critical thinking
focus on believing more strongly verses, fitting the dock.
Into your life as it already is, it's it's supposed to get rid of all the stuff that sort of Non Carlton. You talked about this before exact
we saw the point is not to understand an ideology of hope of a cold but to believe it completely and
and furthermore, the the that I think it was our coffer who said the vividness and tangibility of mass movement can be measured by by its devil
more the Moreira Real, you can make the enemy the more you can mobilise people to sacrifice themselves and follow you
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Georgia with Steve Arson,
other elements that I think people are familiar with things like information, control
while knowing very little even about their own called, not allowed to get outside information can even be critical with one another. You see this with Scientology. You see it with North Korea, of course, that can't even get radio and tv from
places no internet. You mentioned emotional control and these emotion
overwhelm the double bind.
lock us into the called. Can you give an example of a double bind, because these are so calm? And when you talked about those in the book, I went. Oh yeah. I've heard these a million times
I'll. Do the one. Second, if I may to Jordan, and just say that the number one thing about information control from my experience is deceptive recruitment or lack of informed consent.
people don't know what they're getting into right. We might does. Women were flirting with me right
didn't understand what was happening right? Let's go away for the weekend, suddenly turns into were a church gathering for the whole weekend and you can't go home and were not just hanging out right,
of anyone's listening to this, and they were have gotten involved with a group of any type or relationship, and you think back to the first. Do you expect
answers- and you can actually say they lie-
to me that should cause you to step back and
you know re evaluate what everything else
the following. After it, because
a legitimate group words legitimate person will always tell you up
who they are, what they believe
and what what they want like? What's gonna
and if you go into this relation
a bar. You enter this group. Will you go to this workshop and, of course,
Jordan. You know that a lot of these experiential workshops, the last thing they're gonna, tell you is what you're gonna experience, because they don't want
spoil it for you re you need to have your own experience spoke no
You want my money, you want my time, you want my body. Tell me what you believe
decided if I want to subject myself to this environment or not, of course- and this has never well then, if they can't, because
has to do with the emotional overwhelmed that you mentioned before. If I've, if somebody
and said we're going to a leadership class. If somebody said hey, we're gonna go
HU. I steering exercises where you're supposed to get the other person to cry after generating
dopamine and oxytocin could are staring their eyes for a half hour. Forty five minutes at a time- and you know
you cry you get to crawl.
Other persons lap and then then you're good, and you do it right. So, of course you get bored and you get ridiculously entry.
with staring at someone in the eye and then finally, when you get tired, someone just goes: ok screw it, I'm gonna cry because I'm sick of staring and sit near and other p,
are so firmly entrenched that their act
we're doing this, and so then, suddenly, you ve got this a fifty year old judge in your lap
crying and I'm just thinking to myself. What am I doing
now but I'm looking around and I'm not see another people looking around go and what are we doing in the lights are low. So you can't, you know it's just
believable so of course,
Can't tell you're gonna go do that you would never co you'd go. This is ridiculous. I thank you.
Actually end? You know you're a very sophisticated educated person about social employment. So you were gone.
into those scenarios with a library of resources to analyze what the techniques and
other geezer, most people don't have that knowledge and and and
people do have those critical thoughts in the beginning, but they they they learn to suppress it
That's another thing that I wanted to ask your listeners like
should never suppress here in our thoughts. You know it's like if you're having a
something's bs. Maybe it is like check it out again,
people are making you feel badly and
and threatening to to shun you if you, if you ask those questions
Are they really a friend is a real relationship, or is this just a cold
person acting out their indoctrination, we see
hypnosis, and this is sort of a different show here, but we see hypnosis working brain by shutting down in
shutting down rational faculties and that's what a lot of these exercises seek to do and, of course, lies.
We talk, we mentioned that the people who are highly critical. You know that,
actors and lawyers in the room that stood up and when you know this is I can't do this. I gotta be on caller, hey, I googled this
Yesterday there was some criticism online. What I have to say about that those people removed immediately because they can't even let that seed germinate in the rooms are corn, exactly
in the moon is, and many other called say they would could categorized. People is sheep or goats and
where the ones that that that we're gonna ask the questions that we're gonna be difficult and then
to be no isolated and were rejected
so they wouldn't affect everybody else. That was
I go along with it. What are we
you ever being recruited or we think we're being recruited by a colleague
splain. What this looks like you kind of mentioned before, if something sounds really good, and you think, then you deterrence
to be alive, you should put opinion
remember that. But what are we
We do in the moment
So a lot of people are recruited by family or friends, peep or coworkers people they lake and no
and so I say, do you are investigating up front s question
he's doing independent research
for you ever go
Greed do anything,
It involves your time and energy arm money and I am for being
the consumer? So you see tell me more
who founded it well, what's it
origins what happens if people join? What happens if people want to leave? Have you ever
anyone who has ever left and
and what you can
count on is a face.
Is looking like its lying wrath, because
Was that was the error my father's teach
to me about. You can know what people are trying to help. You know why do you buy there? They want
doing the eye or they'll look. You know shifty.
Whenever and this like, no the moonies were smiling and looking me straight in the eyes and lying there lying?
faces off essentially
So what do you do if you think that
being recruited into a call? Yeah, there's gotta be directed sorted direct,
the questions that I would love to add these to the work sheet for the episode you know hey if Europe, this is happening, ask him these five things. Are these three things? I think that the crew
go question is who founded the group? What are their credentials and their backing
do they have any criminal history? Have you ever checked,
whether they are these
entrails or real or not. For example,
He threw an airy said that he had the highest. I Q and the World Bank is the founder of next to him, who I think is in jail now right, yeah, he stolen jail, he's been convicted, seven counts of sex trafficking, conspiracy to commit sex trafficking and racketeering, but he here
so many people into accepting his version of his history. That is, was
king when he was really young and that he was a Marshall artists like no one ever checked yet in
you know, you're, not the smart
yeah. It's a surprise. This is a bunch
right, but I mean the people who check never get involved, but the people whom he again
It's an its understanding that recruiters are really good at recruiting there really good at the vote,
Bing were entrust many of them like and next learned and
p techniques, neuro, linguistic programming techniques that
of mirroring and pacing in leading and breathing, etc. Weapon
all feel like. Oh, my god, these people were, I feel, like I've known them. My whole lives and I've just met them twenty four hours ago. Well, if
feel their way in twenty four hours. It's really important to remind yourself. It's only been,
four hours yet, while this is a clue feeling and maybe they're really good people, maybe there's something else. Gonna hear its baby alert to write
I remember people saying this leader:
class. You know I met people that I'm gonna be friends with, for my whole life and I was like its day wondered what are you talking about
dates of weakened and actually, and I'm sure that
well made friends there, but I didn't
trusting experiment I put it. They got contact info for everybody that I was in their little sub group break as they put you in these little teens or whatever, to sort of him up. I
made a six month or eight month can't member now
reminder my counter to contact all these people via email,
not a single one was still in the vast mature
lady had taken the advance from the beginning class. Some
but went on to their fake. They caught a Phd programme, which is funny causes not a school. It's just a bunch of bullshit where you work for free for them selling. Other people on the intro in advance was right, but now there are everywhere.
who had gone to the Phd Programme, except for one person had said
and actually really angry with them, I feel like I was mistreated. They all kind of woke up after a while, but you know it took
Ex eight months. I think a couple people took like a year or more and I think they investor upwards, at thirty grand for the fake Phd thing. What
Dan. Was you cold calling people to sell them
yeah. So the thing about large grew awareness, training, type groups and
multi level marketing groups and my experiences this huge turnover within a year like most
people leave after
a year very, very few people,
stay in it for multiple years, but with with
mine, control, coats of the religious bent or the political bent.
two more extreme kinds
indoctrination people can be
for twenty years. Yeah, that's terrifying and
What are some mistakes that people make when trying to get people? Otto cults,
direct confrontation was one of the big ones
I mean it's, it's kind of stuff
typical that the average person will say this sum
like a calls, are you in a cold like the first?
it's gonna ants, yet
If they knew that,
understood what was going on with them or dude. I looked
group up online? It's a frickin coach. You know what's wrong with you or you stupid or something year. Iraqis,
like a brain more soundly like those types of confrontation. All you know,
down ash alienating car things of the worst thing you can do and what
I recommend is too too
ask questions from a curious position like, while you seem really into this. Tell me more tell me when you first met this group. Tell me what you,
about it. What didn't you like about it? Oh this,
Nothing you didn't like about it. That's odd
There is always something in life that you don't
like about something and then
like a little clue, but I think the the
so the worst thing you can do is attacked the person or put them down or label them. The best thing you can do is be curious and ask them
to tell you the story and end
then how much? How much are they actually researched independently, which means
relying on the organization for answers there, their group and
have they ever sought out? Former members and actually asked to hear,
story or read their book or listen to their podcast or whatever
Because when you're in a mind, control called you are not allowed to talk to
or listen to anything that
is negative against the leader, the doctrine. Another group.
so in Scientology people worked are told they have to disconnect from annex member. There told that the the
Romanians and failure at its negative for their spirit to be exact
goes to this, and I say you know if something the legitimate it will stand up to scrutiny and
it's not legitimate. Why would you want to spend your time and energy in money in it? What you
don't want. It also do broaden is overestimate your capacity to infiltrate occult group, because
out of people go in trying to help or a friend or a relative?
go to the meetings and they get the
the indoctrination, and they forget the play
they didn't do their homework up front and they had
got to them. Essentially, so did
You have some humility, don't think you're invulnerable get poaching.
Talk to former members, especially former leaders, but
I say it again. If something's legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny and
if somebody's involved with a group for ten years, recruiting you you can say hey in ten years, have you ever had a friend who decided to leave you now and then
the long silence right and then they may say no or, but they usually will say. Yes, oh
when they decided to leave. Did you sit down and talk with them and find out why they were leaving any answer
courses were not allowed to view that the wildly
they basically what you get his silence? They even want to answer that. That's interesting
I think I won't answer that- I think a lot of parents or close friends. They think this
temporary, is the phase or their, like my kids, too smart for that, but I'll tell you. I went to this.
cortical leadership course realize it. Was it called there? Probably a couple days before cuz I was doing googling and said screw it I'm going to go, cuz it'll be interesting and a bunch of my friends are going, and I'm too smart for this, and I said,
the call me that this is one
you stating my wife, and I ask you to call me every day afterwards and I don't care of its four o clock in the morning, and I will talk about everything inside
about things and she'd go oh you're, pretty
what about this house, because there were some things are like this is a good point at the residence but two bs, and then she would go. Oh okay! Well, you know you,
I missed you would not sign up for the advance thing and, unlike I'm, not going to do that, but on day three I was like I'm on the fence and she's like nope. You promises. I got that's true, but it's funny because go
and knowing that it's a bunch of b as knowing that its self help called not liking, most of the stuff that your hearing not being able to do
all this stuff being fully cognizant of it. I would still like maybe I'll go to the very next week, just to see a little bit more. I mean they are that good at it. You can go I've road map. I think I,
Thank you for your honesty and I thank your wife she's, a keeper yeah,
the whole idea of, if you're, going to infiltrate, to have somebody who's your ground base to
reality tests to debrief way. You even have a code word fur like Syn,
the police and get me out of here people
Often sign and notaries document had a time I'm going into this meeting, because I
have a loved one in it, and I know that there is a possibility, might get brainwashed. I my if, at any point a happy happy
I will stay, please bring out the star
immense and remind me that I have promised my love one, that I'm gonna take three weeks and an talk to a cold experts, afterward vow to to
it's really not not under estimate the power
of hypnosis a mind, control yet
I mean I went in there knowing almost exactly what was going on the entire time and having read this is called danger all these things on the website and I was very, very much it sort of
enter in the room, and then,
it just slowly you, if you stay, I mean look how much,
do in your sleep, deprived and you ve got underground thirty six hours of bullshit like there's only so much that you can do and exert
fortunately, a lot of people leaving called I've heard this dark
during our time with his mental health care. Folks
just kind of out of there we'll house, they don't really know what's going on, and if you try to find a
called counselor culture
This and now they ve got like fate, cult councillors and culture. Its just crazy. To me
there are a lot of phony people. People who are not
recall, members were not meant the health professionals who don't have the credentials who were out there hang a shingle and I've taught.
With numerous former called members who actually set up phony websites, saying that they were ex members to try to trap
all to see whether or not anyone was having doubts or to find it
If anyone is trying to rescue someone out of a cold say to be really care,
follow if you have a loved one on a group to to
understand their very high tech. Alot of these groups. You don't want
you don't want to use your real identity, it's better to have someone else that is associated with you
ET there's a lot of safety things that have to have to go into place
and you mentioned Doktor drew. I actually did an interview with them along yeah. That's why that's why this came up my son, I'm doing called intervene only goes out. It Stephen Hassen and I said yeah memory is good memory, so that
the thing is: is some I'm thrilled to do this with you, because its epidemic and and
the knowledge of how to manipulate people for the good or for the bad has never,
been greater and, of course, is a mental health.
professional I want more people. Did
for the good to help? People
change their lives and good ways that are ethical to help. People have integrity.
Yeah there's examples of that
is going to say, if you think about the the
the whole prison system in the United States, its not or oriented to helping people change their identity for the better. Now it's it's meant to
in force, then label them and keep them in our stock, and it's a shame
because we have the knowledge of how to help people here from traumatic,
wounds and all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and to become functional. Members of of the world
the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Steve Hoskin, we'll be right back after this. Thank you for this
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Inclusion of our episode with Steve, Hudson income
my control. You have some great examples of persuasion and using called
examples of mind. Control inviting people draw their own parallels, and I thought this is fascinating, so somebody's inlet say some kind.
other religious called and
instead of saying, like. I can't believe you believe this you can. You can see the example you gave in
correct me. If I'm wrong, you can
tell an analogous story like there's a can. You believe, there's group in Montana, where they think that some korean guy
the Messiah in this person who believes that some, I dunno Taiwanese guys the Messiah will be like that's unbelievable. These people are ridiculous and there's subconscious brain. I'm
hey it's gotta, be that will then
are to draw some parallels. Of course, the cognitive dissonance will eventually
dover and smash that, but it will
as these little bits of seeds and your idea here
the point here, was: u dont convince people to leave. You just make an opportunity for their authentic self, as opposed to their called identity, to come out and start
something which requires report building and a lot of I'm picture
It is this one of those times we are showing them photos of their childhood during, like the their family intervention in their starting to get more emotional and the cracks begin to show. Where am I d ever just watch too much Tv
no. No. No, it's that's, definitely a major piece, but it's I'm usually recommending that the family show that stuff to the person before the intervention itself to soften them up to get them more.
Powered to accept a voluntary
to revenge. Uncas. Remember I don't kid now: people are
them against their will learn right, sir.
So, yes have you watch
captain Marvel? Not yet the movie
so it's a story about coal mine control on the character. That's all I don't
Serbia's spoil our allow. But it's about you know her.
Waking up to our true self, and
Her friends are showing her pictures and reminding our of experiences and- and
and saying? We know you you're a good person, you know it's scary,
to me, though, that you even mention as its
cultural leave, baggage and people even
did they leave so people will leave and they'll think all my kids are gonna die of something and you are shown, I think, was it moon, the
called showed you like the exorcist. This is gonna happen to you in it sounds so dumb if you're not gonna call, but if you're in it in the moment. What are they tell you like this
I ve made this movie and is good at Moon Himself- said that the God made the exorcist feet in this movie is a prophecy of what would happen to you. If you leave, the unification
in church. Of course, he was laughing when he said it right laughing because a ridiculous it is, but I
had been so indoctrinated to believe you is the greatest man in human history and was
capable of reading mines and knowing the future and etc?
such rather when he said it was like ok this, but it scared the hell out of me, no pun intended
And I didn't understand that this is what is known as phobia indoctrination. That's one of the main
pieces of the e of the bite model about people
me to have these irrational fears that if they ever question the leader or leave the group
terrible things are gonna happen to them and in my book,
freedom of mind, I have four pages single space of the most common phobias that I have encountered in my career
hit by a car yoga. Can't sir, you die,
drug overdose, you'll, be possessed?
Demons you'll be reincarnated ten thousand times, but the eyes
Jordan, is that when you're undermine control called mind, control
You can imagine being free and happy
and fulfilled spiritually, you can
only generate negative models in your brain and at the point that a purse
needs, a former member who is happy, and
functional and doing great things. It starts to open that door
or of ha how come
it's not possessed how come you're, not you know, spinning our green vomit
and liberating and spinning around his head.
sounds a lot like they're trying to sort of imprint PTSD, and you see the same thing from North Korea. They say: oh this defector. All these two factors that go
South Korea, they're just beg to come back or
they die because it so poured out. I mean: there's all this fear is largely they're telling people that
I mean I've seen movies in North Korea, whether like people in America have to drink melted, snow because there's no water and there's no food, they get one
public snow per day. It's like the homage snow. Do you think we arrogant fill up on
we need to know it's. It's the above the cure to brainwashing in mind. Control is perspective and
and we need to have critical, analytic thinking that goes along with our emotional brain
an hour and unconscious mind. So
the case of fear. We need to have fear when there's a legitimate
concern or danger, but we
it's reality test. If something is wrong
absurdity, like some
the drawing of truck line on a carpet telling you that
Scott on thousand vaults of
charity and if you step on it, you're gonna die
need to know that electricity isn't conducted by carpeting and chalk
many guy right reared
and even though the person is very
and saying an authoritative and uses the hypnotic voice, its ball. It's real
this concept, you say
floating, so even after leaving call literature
trigger words. They can actually reach rigour. Your called programming, even years later and
Oh there's their people that you mention in the book and that I've seen on they
need to change associations with like music sounds places, habits food they can't they can't you,
jargon. They have to make all these new associations it. So bizarre. It's like this stuff is really in there and kind and ever goes away,
I can go away and that's what I teach my clients as like. It's your mind: you should control it and if you like, a certain kind of music
you should be able to listen to it and not think of the call to, even though the call used it in its indoctrination and it's about
you having an internal locus of control, fear, experience and eyes,
stimuli or triggers is is
is not a good long term solution for someone being healed from a destructive called mind, control group, so
the fastest way by the way, Jordan to get over
a trigger like that is, is direct experience again.
So if you
afraid of a dog, an you deliberately, look at a picture of a dog or go and pet a puppy. That's gonna! Be there
ass the sway to get over it there.
visualize it you go to a therapist, you could do systematic desensitization if, if it's too
I refer you to look at a picture of a dog order: tat a puppy but
if it does anyone listening and they have all kinds of phobias left over from their cult experience like a phobia of the Bible, for example like this, so many people
we're traumatized by fire.
Christian Bible cults that there
pray to look at a bible
just brings back the river called programming, the best
way to get over it is does go. Take a college course to take a course online to study the Bible Right naked, aggravating with it if we are with a grin
showed person who actually knows the Bible, that's the best.
Way to do it to challenge the indoctrination and to re frame it and through and through neutralize it
I was just going to say in my case when I first got out of the moon is when somebody said hey: did you see the moon last night? It would
Rigour me back to kneeling on a concrete floor in front of this fact. Korean billion ere, I thought was the Messiah and I had to
ask myself before I met the group when I
the word moon. What do they think of
thought of the satellite that went around the earth here and there
I just said moon and I thought of the satellite moons Satellite Moon and web-
well said Mon. I thought of the satellite. What
Are you most worried about right now? I know that we talked about business calls which is actually something most people think about. You know em l having called mind control,
such being used routinely. Also
I was gonna, say Enron. A friend of mine who wrote a book about political, called, stood a wonderful critique of Enron as a corporate qualities working on another paper.
there are no slow the blood.
Corporation, that that was very popular.
What do I worry about? I worry about governments a fork.
About China. I worry about you know any.
Anyone who aspires to be a dictator who wants to abolish or free press who won
Stu and slave and any critics are former members
of their administration or regime, and I think we're dead,
being point now were either the bulk of humanity wakes up to understand the psychology of influence, or they say
to it. So
I am optimistic. That's why
I love your show and I am happy to do this podcast with you
think, there's a lot of people who there's something very drastically wrong with, with the whole influence
mechanisms around the world
You say that guy I look at ISIS. I see this look at our guide. I see this, but I also look at white christian identity and I dont mean people who are white. They go to a true christian church. I mean Hake groups that are white or nationalist. I look I
in North Korea, and I see so many parallels, but I also see the same thing happening in ST gangs, and so you
these mind, control regimes. I'm wondering, do you think in Kenya?
strap await this sort of recent trend of let's say mindfulness, which leads to these whew.
Influencers online. Do you think that control
It's too this because I see people online and I got this person is dangerous and in people don't really know it. Yet there
Where can I I think it's very
just thing you bring up mindfulness. Yes, so
any technique can be used in an ethical way or an unethical away and any technique mines technique can be good for some people.
but not for everybody and
the whole mindfulness field is now taking off in a very concerning way. Where, where
their authority figures were being treated like gurus and others
and you necessarily healthy ones for
having being in your body and having having peace.
And having integrity,
actually just at a conference on a cold conference in England and I met-
professor of neuroscience, at Brown University who,
is researching the negative effects of mindfulness and there are a lot of them. So it's
not a universal panacea, nor is
transcendental meditation, which was another program that I saw at this conference
ex members. Talking about what it was really like.
upper levels of thirteen movement but
like meditation, but the key is you you need to be in control the technique and it has to be a technique that that
resonant with who you are as a person,
and getting Emil's recently another popular personal growth podcast that I really like had this guy on recently and his video got over a million views, I think, is, as name is like sod guru or something right, and somebody reached out to me and goes hey, don't have this guy on. I was like I wouldn't, but just out of curiosity wine, he told me the story of how his wife went to these sites,
RO meditation sessions ended up going to India, leaving our whole family disconnecting for
everybody getting divorced. Then
a year and a half later coming back out and going hey. You wouldn't believe it. That's a call. Never one goes yeah. We knew
Where were you for the last year and a half two years and she's like I just got I went to I want to do this,
M retreats and then dot dot dot. I'm living in India working for free at some vague
restaurant or whatever, helping other people.
here and she goes surprise. It's a call, and it was just so
easy to find something that seems really innocuous. Look. We just want to keep a chill life stressful, do
t em and the new data
like Scientology you get to the higher level. May go by the way this guy's he's a profit, and we want to do that as of freaks
well out, but here you go and then you believe it gives you already in yet to feed
and roads, but I
I guess I want to use the story you just shared, as is an opportunity to say hey. If you care about a family, member or friend that you see is getting involved with a destructive grew, and
but they're, saying oh, but I'm a happier than I have ever been in my life
leave me alone, I'm an adult, don't
listen to them and just now that they don't understand, what's being done to them and they all thank you for an intervention
my if my family, when I first came back from the moonies, had said Steve. If this group
legitimate. It will stand up to scrutiny to us
favour promise? You won't go back for the next two weeks and let's research together
What have you done that I was a reasonable request?
the thing is right now with the internet. Is that a lot of the destructive called sir burying them the best critical information of that time
They are so you can't just
be satisfied with the first ten hits on Google anymore. When your way
you're doing you know the name of the grew plus called plus x, member,
was brainwashing. You have to go
deeper into the whip and in some cases, go on the web archive itself
we back machine archive dot org to find the
Lee Juicy articles and the important information yeah, I think
you'd mentioned in the book that there are calls that by things they purchase or bully,
on profits, like cult awareness network used to be the call to where network. Now it's a front group which is really scary,
they thereon us Scientology, bankrupted, Jordan and
and they got all the files to in the bankruptcy court which is crazy and and on completely,
and a lot of people are intimidated by wealthy, yet I'll call threatening to sue. So, even though,
media will do show with me and then they won't arid because they're afraid of being sued, that's cool,
Is it because they mentioned you mentioned specific names here, as I mentioned,
the killer groups jails,
should I be worried about this. That, naturally, is
just my should! Yes, you should beak. We know you should be our lawyer, so you wanna talk legally about in a way that is responsible, that this is
an yes, you should be concerned in the sense that groups June
like negative information, told about them so crazy,
You have me on your show about groups. Don't like me at all. I say
kinds of mean things and nasty things that they make up about me.
Just absolutely mine blowing it's scary. It makes me think. Maybe I should believe out do I do. I need the blue.
Bout Scientology people know what we're talking about anyway thing. I don't think so, because they ve kind
exhausted themselves in the legal system. Harassing people like this
much information. Leah remedy, as a young ward, winning show that ending and
you mentioned T Amber TM, doesn't want publicity hands if they threaten to sue. You just say yeah: let's do it. Let's have some attacks
funny though they won't pursue it, and that's always been
useful strategy with called says they want. They want you to back down and if you say, nope not backing down, let's dance than they
awake as they realise that all groups
more negative publicity for them. If the yes, oh yeah, the interesting I mean I would, I would love
if somebody said you lied about us and I'll, be they all its examined, everything that was said and of public forum, because I can I dont, let
people say via their mine, have to have a critic and ex member exactly I ll go out with each other. Yet that's the plan that makes perfect sense to me. I would love to do that and then we'll see
looks better in the end, that's for sure
then the truth will stand up to scrutiny.
Stephen event you so much for this has been so interesting and that the country,
techniques. What to look for
all of this is absolutely been fascinating and hopefully very useful to everyone. That's listen! So very frank. You
and combating called mind. Control is thirty years old, tells my story about the moonies in depth and
a good overview,
freedom of mine book is no kind of the advance stuff on how they help somebody wake up from from a mine
That nationals the book was excellence and willing to your website as well. Thank you very much for your time. I know we. We did a big ol interview here, but it was worth it
We appreciate it and thanks for your good work, Jason
The conclusion here, Abbe,
the same, we didn't even get to a lot of business and am alarmed staff, and a lot of you
their types of courts. We didn't have a really good.
touch on some of this stuff, the book at a time more and he's updating it, and it's just theirs. It seems
it's a little depressing there's so much on calls. We literally ran at a time even with two episodes. The well is so deep on calls that either we could be talking verve. We
actually have an entire show every week about cults. They go so deep and
His love haven't Stephen hasten on the show, because he's been there, it's not like some academic,
it is giving us advice. You know based on stuff these red or interviews it he's done. He was a Mooney, so
He has been in the belly of the beast, which is fantastic.
take so this was it. I mean this is a great site,
episode, so I thank you so much
Stephen for common on the show this was this was so enlightening, and I can
is this. Every time I get a new friend that once the sign up for urban life, yet exactly exactly great big. Thank you to him the book
called called mind, control has got a new book coming out. We're gonna haven't back on a show for that were teaching
to connect with great people like Stephen and manage relationships using systems in tiny habits over at our six minute networking course, which is free over it. George
harbinger dot com, slash course. I know you're gonna. Do it later the problem with kicking the canned down the road is you cannot make up for lost time when it
MR relationships and networking the number one mistake. I see people make as postponing this thinking. You don't need it
not dig in the well before you get thirsty once
relationships? It's too late.
these drills are designed to take a few minutes today. This is the stuff I wish I knew a decade ago. It's
fluff. It is crucial in you can find it all for free.
Jordan, Harbinger, dot, com, slash course in mostly guess you're on the show they subscriber the course in the news that are to come and join us for that, as well,
speaking to building relationships, you can always reach out or follow us on Social, at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and
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used in association with Podcast one in this episode was co produced by Jason to Philip
and Jan Harbinger Show notes in work
it's by Robert Furmity music
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-23.