The world around us is smart. We think your education should be smart too, with the flax path, learning format from compelling university, you can set your own debt, lines and leverage your experience to move forward at your pace, visit, capella dot you to learn more capella university. Don't just learn, learn smarter. they say to truly understand someone. You must combine their shoes. Well, axis. We design the Eu S with you in mind, every step of the way from leading leg room to positioning the touch screen. Four inches closer everything in the Lexus. Yes, a direct reflection of you, like the banner to discuss more experience, amazing Lexus dealer, twenty, twenty, two e s, verses, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two competitors, information for manufacturers websites as a five three twenty twenty one, the world around us is smart. We think your education should be smart who, with the flax path, learning format from compelling university, you can set your own debt, lines and leverage. Your experience to move forward at your pace, visit, Capella, DOT,

you to learn more capella university. Don't just learn: learn smarter, mom's are amazing. It tracking down hard to find items. Library, books, socks, you name it, but sometimes help is welcomed care, not makes it easy to find babysitters near you sitters with the experience your family needs like after school pick up and homework help you just posted job for qualified sitters to apply and since all care, dot, com, caregivers or background checked, You can feel confident about interviewing and hiring together child care help you need sign up now. It carried out, welcome to the shell, I'm Jordan Harbinger, as always, I'm here with producer Jason, to feel about the Jordan Harbinger, shall we go the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant, an interesting people? We turned their wisdom in the practical advice that you can use to him. Your own life. Those around you and today is part two of our key

special with Stephen Hoss. Then, if you haven't heard part one you're going to want to go back to the last episode and check out one from Stephen House on this issue continuation of that episode, lot more cult I've gone on lately. He memories are Netflix explosives, Scientology, there's, whew YO gathers self help, seminars business Cults, Emmeline Stuff Cross Red Cross, maybe not quite right. But he was interviewed very cross with documentary, so noisy Yanza, pretty funny. Never now, I know well defined cults, of course, and we have former called member and current called expert, Stephen Hassan in far too his book, don't mind control so interesting. It's all about the manipulative practices. Cults use, advanced hypnosis all the way down to blackmail this stuff, is crazy. The fact that it comes from intelligence agencies and things like that today, and you get into what happens if you or somebody love is being recruited by a call. What to do how to get people out how his cult rescues, work, is so much here that we are

the two parts- I hope you enjoy this and by the way you want to know how I managed to make connections like this. It's all about systems in tiny habits, so check out our six minutes. Networking course, which is free. That's over it in harbinger dot com, so course, and by the way, most guess you're on the show subscribe. Of course, if they breed the newsletter to come. Join us you're gonna, be in some great company. Here's part two cults. What Stephen hasn't? Ok, so we just left off saying cult, mind control, Might been created by Korean CIA, which even coming out of my mouth sounds like I've. Just watched too much. You know info wars, conspiracy, theories deaf, but that it was created as a counterpart the north korean regime, which have in their makes sense to me, which is that that's the best minds. well I've ever seen in the currency. I was, of course, train and found a buy in part by the American CIA. Soon in this weird roundabout way, the I can see I was instrumental in creating. I can't leave him and is called mind. Control techniques well spent

quickly the Mooney mind, control techniques but, of course, mind control techniques or developed many years earlier they were used Hitler in World war. Two they were bit for world war. One then an evolution, but the the in terms of my direct entry into this, was as a spare meant or some type of of creature, of this this joint programme between the CIA and the Korean CIA, using the monies to influence people to be very right wing. I think it's even scarier that the moon called, though call you wherein the monies they only papers and gun manufacturers. That is a very scary combination. Somehow the they, the patent for the Thompson, Sub Machine gun saw rifles its it is

It's very scary and I was linking this morning, just about how many people were being indoctrinated on line to believe, there's, gonna be a civil war, and so they should stockpile assault. You know rifles, with automatic keep away, It is for the war, that's about to come. The term. That's really frightening, well yeah mean that some correct compound type stuff right there. You are ever that item. If I remember that you certainly remember that that was was contacting my congressmen, an attorney General Reno, saying I'd like to offer my expertise cause you don't know what you're doing and you because a lot of violence- and they said we ve- got to snow problem here yeah and they happened to meet the former. Leave negotiator for the F b I doing

a taping about documentary, and he read my book soon. We sat down together and he said I wish I had known you back when he failed RO badly. I'm sure I mean, I can imagine you reaching out saying hey I'd like to offer my assistants you're gonna end up with violence and then saying we got there and then but immediately to giant compound on fire FBI, Swat tank, rolling, A garage and bunch of people burning alive in a building that totally didn't need to happen. Exact and I had access to family members who wanted to speak to your loved ones. Inside the compound the F b I were INA didn't allow them to do that. Witches would have been my one of my many strategies that in having a really sexy voiced female negotiator with David caress. That would have been smart as well. I had a whole bunch of cigarettes Questions which I later did talk at Harvard about

the things the FBI and the eight year did wrong and what they should have done instead, which is online on my site. I will definitely linked to that nation. It's I'm curious del. The sexy voice negotiator. Is that because we're playing to Croatia's ego in that's what we know rode away here, we are all part of his his thing was that he he said he only. He could have sex with all the women. Even the married women couldn't have sex with their husbands. He even had sex with a ten year old. After part of the abuse there buddy He felt like he was Jesus so and the F b I looked it having said this, is a con artists, so they thought that wonder. Gas was was shot and that he would, you know, come out and save himself. He didn't understand that he wanted. To be monitored. That was part of the plan rights it looking at college, leaders as con man. Isn't quite the right angle we're not looking at her somebody's.

completely. The wrong thing in this is Is this this because to me it looks like a con. Man is somebody who knows deep down who kind of they turn off. There microphone and they go or their video when they go off all right. Let's go to Mcdonald's and sick of this vague in hippy self help Bs Gimme, my pride jack and I want to go to the strict club at the knees in not that these called leaders are doing the same thing, but they also at some point, are more of a bullet not like this other identity and their that says. Ok. This is just how I make money right right so mean a con artist, wants the size up the mark figure. The angle get in make the money or make the conquest and move on. Current leaders are different creature altogether and most colleagues We were in a cold themselves or in a cold like family system, where they internalized

a very unhealthy sense of self very narcissistic, often psychopath, illogical, and they make the mistake, but they have to because their life is oriented through surrounding themselves, with people to us to give them narcissistic supply of themselves with yes, people who don't say you're wrong or you lie that worried by the way you prophesied something completely different people and not gonna. Do you know like that? new prophecy. They just eject everybody. They just fire them yeah, so they have no reality testing mechanism within their sphere of of of reality, and so it did it's more and more bent over time. Let's talk about you, four components of mind control. You ve got some pretty interesting,

actually a lotta components of this, but there's four should have basic overarching right. So cognitive dissonance theory is the first one that I wrote down here. Can we go through this? Is this I find is like the meat and potatoes of how your brain essentially, how Personality gets taken over by this person or this cult. Well, let me explain it this way, Jordan, I I've come up with something I called the bite model of mind, control bees, and were behaviour control. I stay. for information control than theirs thought, control and emotional control, I have some very your under each one of these, but I can into this model from the unfair, stingers cognitive dissonance model which he wrote about in the fifties. when studying a, U R foe called and what he paused is that people have faults, feelings and behaviors, and they seek to

choices and do things to reduce dissonance between the three of them sobering. Ample if you do something behaviorally extreme strong movement to rationalize and justify why it was a good thing to do and to feel ok about it. So when I was studying all the models of brainwashing in mind, control the lift and model of singer model, the Leeuwen model it just didn't make easy sense, but when I, when I thought about adding information control, the first fingers, dissonance model and came up with the bite model. It all fell into place where people can really understand quickly and easily weather any relationship or group is destructive. My control, one so kind the dissidents. Just in this case to your point, the extra Behavior requires extreme rationalization. So if I've given up my,

life savings to some Korean I who says that he's the Messiah I dont go man, I've a huge mistake, I gave my life's savings to the screen. Guy, who says he's the Messiah, and now that's checking out what I do is go. Ok, I'm having a moment of panic here. What I need to do is figure out the reasons why I believe this korean guys, the Messiah, because otherwise that means I just gave away my life's savings to occult leader, and I don't really want to believe that, because that's make me highly uncomfortable somebody jump through some hoops so it's not quite that a rational, at least in the mind of a Mooney. What they are trying to think about is few hammered out or a question Bout Moon, the doctrine which is called the divine principle or the organizational policy. This evil, spirits trying to invade your mind or Satan is trying to test you so

alienated from doing any type of thought, process that begin to analyze anything, you are trained to do thoughts. helping, which is one of the that the techniques ended she of the bite model. Your turn into shut down any critical thinking and reinforce your called identity. So, in the case of my father, who I read in the Washington Post one day, the moon had an m16 gun factory in South Korea and thought. Ah now I have the proof they get my son out and wake him up at this, she's, not them aside, the moon isn't the Messiah and he called me up and spit Steve come to how could the soil urban m16 gun factory we're from Queens New York? I should add- and I started immediately saying, in my mind, crush Satan crush Satan, Gloried, Evan Peace on earth, colored them based on true parents to parents, your parents cassettes.

Was trained to do citizens alike surrounding this issue. this being the engine persecution, random Satan right. This is the adult. equivalent of like putting your fingers in your ears and going Lala lie, can hear you right. It's just that type of never thought of that one, but I'm gonna is use that should not go ahead. Seriously. My father's intention was to wake me up and to get me to critically think, but the way he delivered the message it forced me to to do this. Mine troll technique on myself. That propelled me deeper said the involvement and me more alienated against him and distrustful of him. Other elements thought control, I see this in a lot of you self help called those are the ones I am most familiar with. Just as that, so many people trying it made to do these things and sometimes I go to accord and quote leadership class like I mentioned before, and it turns out to be some bs like

in the past years and they they love. making up their own work, four things they love using specific jargon seal, say something like well but there's another. Well, that's your racket! That's your vets! You're rakkeed that you do you'd, and it's like you're trying to make yourself you're trying to make me wrong and that all these weird sort of twisted language, you ve gotta have a friggin dictionary together to talk with these people after right. So Robert Liftin, when he was doing his research on chinese communist brainwashing in the fifties and His seminal book thought reform in the psychology of pluralism in his face, Chapter twenty two we outlined eight criteria, brainwashing and one was loaded language and its its thought terminal in cliches wowie, he wrote about it that it's it's some that's a known only inside the group.

no meaning to anyone outside of a group of people, think it's Giles show stupid, but it commit it shuts down type of understanding of reality. so in the moon is, for example, if you had any type of of relationship problem. They could be reduced, to either a chapter two problem or a keen able problem. Ok, what what's a chance The problem in the moon CALL Moon says that Satan seduced Eve sexually an impression did her and got hurt to seduce Adam and that's how all of you humankind fell away from God, Garden of Eden. so any Feelings of impulses to of sexuality is a chapter, two problem cases, Glade hook,

I was nineteen years old when I was not at home, look is happy or two at that point. My all life was chapter two in the end, but you had a train yourself to do thought. Stopping you know me starvation. dating nothing. You can never be alone with a woman you couldn't go. Women are kiss a woman at all because you know they could The same could use her to seduce you and it was just visa lovelier, yeah, rather Home I call control technique for the keen eye a problem. The biblical story is that keen basically killed his brother able and and says that that basically use You need to surrender to your central figure, able figure the matter what they tell you to do. Even if it goes against your conscience, its God's will

somehow the restoration will take place so retraining blind submission to to your superior, by using that loaded term but point pointers. Words should help us understand reality better. It should work In our view, widen their ability to connect the dots with what is but control calls its all about construction and make things tighter, where you're in this ideologically total list web of of control, yeah, see this with even modern day sort of ISIS, Al Qaeda infidels, apostates. Anyone who does not agree with you infidel anyone is not Europe specific. and shove Islam right like there's those might have wider meaning when they were originally in the Koran, but really now they're, just kind of designed to be, if you're, not sitting in this room. Listening to back her

bag daddy or whatever from ices than year of one of these things and those people just broadly are worthy of death because Mohammed, whatever, because Islam Right a radical branches on. So you see things that happening break it can be really subtle in a lotta version in North Korea and in any sort of country where there they have a really high level of control. They have special words for outside or not just foreigner, that's a common where they have words that are like pejorative and they embrace. Basically, everything that has to do with anything. That's not what say North Korea Friendly is just this giant pejorative word that has to do yes, so it's about the map of a mind, control called, is black and white all or nothing good versus evil. Very simplistic and the map is reality post to it's: it's it's the script

a reality by the right, not a perfect one. When you're in a mind, control call, you told the dogmas, perfected, scientific, frightened, few question at the there's something inherently wrong with you that you can't see the truth with a capital tee right- and this is one reason why it is called Doctrine- is vague right. It's not it's not supposed to be understood or studied rigorously it supposed to help you regard your now. And called to identity, limit critical thinking focus on believing more strongly verses, fitting the dock. Into your life as it already is, it's it's supposed to get rid of all the stuff that sort of Non Carlton. You talked about this before exact we saw the point is not to understand an ideology of hope of a cold but to believe it completely and

and furthermore, the the that I think it was our coffer who said the vividness and tangibility of mass movement can be measured by by its devil more the Moreira Real, you can make the enemy the more you can mobilise people to sacrifice themselves and follow you you're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Steve Hassen, we'll be right back after this thanks for listing in supporting the Shetland to learn more get links to all the great discounts you just heard from our amazing sponsors visit Jordan Harbinger about Gunflash deals: forget we have achieved for today's episodes. You can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key, take away from Steve awesome. That link is in the shadows. Jordan, Harbinger downsized podcast. If you like if some have subscribed to the show just go to Jordan, Harbinger Council. I subscribe. striving to the show is absolutely free. It just means you get all the latest episode downloaded automatically to your progress player, so you don't miss a single thing and now

Georgia with Steve Arson, other elements that I think people are familiar with things like information, control while knowing very little even about their own called, not allowed to get outside information can even be critical with one another. You see this with Scientology. You see it with North Korea, of course, that can't even get radio and tv from places no internet. You mentioned emotional control and these emotion overwhelm the double bind. lock us into the called. Can you give an example of a double bind, because these are so calm? And when you talked about those in the book, I went. Oh yeah. I've heard these a million times I'll. Do the one. Second, if I may to Jordan, and just say that the number one thing about information control from my experience is deceptive recruitment or lack of informed consent. people don't know what they're getting into right. We might does. Women were flirting with me right

didn't understand what was happening right? Let's go away for the weekend, suddenly turns into were a church gathering for the whole weekend and you can't go home and were not just hanging out right, of anyone's listening to this, and they were have gotten involved with a group of any type or relationship, and you think back to the first. Do you expect answers- and you can actually say they lie- to me that should cause you to step back and you know re evaluate what everything else the following. After it, because a legitimate group words legitimate person will always tell you up who they are, what they believe and what what they want like? What's gonna and if you go into this relation a bar. You enter this group. Will you go to this workshop and, of course,

Jordan. You know that a lot of these experiential workshops, the last thing they're gonna, tell you is what you're gonna experience, because they don't want spoil it for you re you need to have your own experience spoke no You want my money, you want my time, you want my body. Tell me what you believe decided if I want to subject myself to this environment or not, of course- and this has never well then, if they can't, because has to do with the emotional overwhelmed that you mentioned before. If I've, if somebody and said we're going to a leadership class. If somebody said hey, we're gonna go HU. I steering exercises where you're supposed to get the other person to cry after generating dopamine and oxytocin could are staring their eyes for a half hour. Forty five minutes at a time- and you know you cry you get to crawl. Other persons lap and then then you're good, and you do it right. So, of course you get bored and you get ridiculously entry.

with staring at someone in the eye and then finally, when you get tired, someone just goes: ok screw it, I'm gonna cry because I'm sick of staring and sit near and other p, are so firmly entrenched that their act we're doing this, and so then, suddenly, you ve got this a fifty year old judge in your lap crying and I'm just thinking to myself. What am I doing now but I'm looking around and I'm not see another people looking around go and what are we doing in the lights are low. So you can't, you know it's just believable so of course, Can't tell you're gonna go do that you would never co you'd go. This is ridiculous. I thank you. Actually end? You know you're a very sophisticated educated person about social employment. So you were gone. into those scenarios with a library of resources to analyze what the techniques and other geezer, most people don't have that knowledge and and and

people do have those critical thoughts in the beginning, but they they they learn to suppress it That's another thing that I wanted to ask your listeners like should never suppress here in our thoughts. You know it's like if you're having a something's bs. Maybe it is like check it out again, people are making you feel badly and and threatening to to shun you if you, if you ask those questions Are they really a friend is a real relationship, or is this just a cold person acting out their indoctrination, we see hypnosis, and this is sort of a different show here, but we see hypnosis working brain by shutting down in shutting down rational faculties and that's what a lot of these exercises seek to do and, of course, lies. We talk, we mentioned that the people who are highly critical. You know that,

actors and lawyers in the room that stood up and when you know this is I can't do this. I gotta be on caller, hey, I googled this Yesterday there was some criticism online. What I have to say about that those people removed immediately because they can't even let that seed germinate in the rooms are corn, exactly in the moon is, and many other called say they would could categorized. People is sheep or goats and where the ones that that that we're gonna ask the questions that we're gonna be difficult and then to be no isolated and were rejected so they wouldn't affect everybody else. That was I go along with it. What are we you ever being recruited or we think we're being recruited by a colleague splain. What this looks like you kind of mentioned before, if something sounds really good, and you think, then you deterrence to be alive, you should put opinion remember that. But what are we We do in the moment

So a lot of people are recruited by family or friends, peep or coworkers people they lake and no and so I say, do you are investigating up front s question he's doing independent research for you ever go Greed do anything, It involves your time and energy arm money and I am for being the consumer? So you see tell me more who founded it well, what's it origins what happens if people join? What happens if people want to leave? Have you ever anyone who has ever left and and what you can count on is a face. Is looking like its lying wrath, because Was that was the error my father's teach

to me about. You can know what people are trying to help. You know why do you buy there? They want doing the eye or they'll look. You know shifty. Whenever and this like, no the moonies were smiling and looking me straight in the eyes and lying there lying? faces off essentially So what do you do if you think that being recruited into a call? Yeah, there's gotta be directed sorted direct, the questions that I would love to add these to the work sheet for the episode you know hey if Europe, this is happening, ask him these five things. Are these three things? I think that the crew go question is who founded the group? What are their credentials and their backing do they have any criminal history? Have you ever checked, whether they are these entrails or real or not. For example,

He threw an airy said that he had the highest. I Q and the World Bank is the founder of next to him, who I think is in jail now right, yeah, he stolen jail, he's been convicted, seven counts of sex trafficking, conspiracy to commit sex trafficking and racketeering, but he here so many people into accepting his version of his history. That is, was king when he was really young and that he was a Marshall artists like no one ever checked yet in you know, you're, not the smart person yeah. It's a surprise. This is a bunch right, but I mean the people who check never get involved, but the people whom he again It's an its understanding that recruiters are really good at recruiting there really good at the vote, Bing were entrust many of them like and next learned and p techniques, neuro, linguistic programming techniques that

of mirroring and pacing in leading and breathing, etc. Weapon all feel like. Oh, my god, these people were, I feel, like I've known them. My whole lives and I've just met them twenty four hours ago. Well, if feel their way in twenty four hours. It's really important to remind yourself. It's only been, four hours yet, while this is a clue feeling and maybe they're really good people, maybe there's something else. Gonna hear its baby alert to write I remember people saying this leader: class. You know I met people that I'm gonna be friends with, for my whole life and I was like its day wondered what are you talking about dates of weakened and actually, and I'm sure that well made friends there, but I didn't trusting experiment I put it. They got contact info for everybody that I was in their little sub group break as they put you in these little teens or whatever, to sort of him up. I made a six month or eight month can't member now

reminder my counter to contact all these people via email, not a single one was still in the vast mature lady had taken the advance from the beginning class. Some but went on to their fake. They caught a Phd programme, which is funny causes not a school. It's just a bunch of bullshit where you work for free for them selling. Other people on the intro in advance was right, but now there are everywhere. who had gone to the Phd Programme, except for one person had said and actually really angry with them, I feel like I was mistreated. They all kind of woke up after a while, but you know it took Ex eight months. I think a couple people took like a year or more and I think they investor upwards, at thirty grand for the fake Phd thing. What Dan. Was you cold calling people to sell them yeah. So the thing about large grew awareness, training, type groups and multi level marketing groups and my experiences this huge turnover within a year like most people leave after

a year very, very few people, stay in it for multiple years, but with with mine, control, coats of the religious bent or the political bent. two more extreme kinds indoctrination people can be for twenty years. Yeah, that's terrifying and What are some mistakes that people make when trying to get people? Otto cults, direct confrontation was one of the big ones I mean it's, it's kind of stuff typical that the average person will say this sum like a calls, are you in a cold like the first? it's gonna ants, yet If they knew that, understood what was going on with them or dude. I looked group up online? It's a frickin coach. You know what's wrong with you or you stupid or something year. Iraqis,

like a brain more soundly like those types of confrontation. All you know, down ash alienating car things of the worst thing you can do and what I recommend is too too ask questions from a curious position like, while you seem really into this. Tell me more tell me when you first met this group. Tell me what you, about it. What didn't you like about it? Oh this, Nothing you didn't like about it. That's odd There is always something in life that you don't like about something and then like a little clue, but I think the the so the worst thing you can do is attacked the person or put them down or label them. The best thing you can do is be curious and ask them to tell you the story and end then how much? How much are they actually researched independently, which means

relying on the organization for answers there, their group and have they ever sought out? Former members and actually asked to hear, story or read their book or listen to their podcast or whatever Because when you're in a mind, control called you are not allowed to talk to or listen to anything that is negative against the leader, the doctrine. Another group. so in Scientology people worked are told they have to disconnect from annex member. There told that the the Romanians and failure at its negative for their spirit to be exact goes to this, and I say you know if something the legitimate it will stand up to scrutiny and it's not legitimate. Why would you want to spend your time and energy in money in it? What you

don't want. It also do broaden is overestimate your capacity to infiltrate occult group, because out of people go in trying to help or a friend or a relative? go to the meetings and they get the the indoctrination, and they forget the play they didn't do their homework up front and they had got to them. Essentially, so did You have some humility, don't think you're invulnerable get poaching. Talk to former members, especially former leaders, but I say it again. If something's legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny and if somebody's involved with a group for ten years, recruiting you you can say hey in ten years, have you ever had a friend who decided to leave you now and then

the long silence right and then they may say no or, but they usually will say. Yes, oh when they decided to leave. Did you sit down and talk with them and find out why they were leaving any answer courses were not allowed to view that the wildly they basically what you get his silence? They even want to answer that. That's interesting I think I won't answer that- I think a lot of parents or close friends. They think this temporary, is the phase or their, like my kids, too smart for that, but I'll tell you. I went to this. cortical leadership course realize it. Was it called there? Probably a couple days before cuz I was doing googling and said screw it I'm going to go, cuz it'll be interesting and a bunch of my friends are going, and I'm too smart for this, and I said, the call me that this is one you stating my wife, and I ask you to call me every day afterwards and I don't care of its four o clock in the morning, and I will talk about everything inside about things and she'd go oh you're, pretty

what about this house, because there were some things are like this is a good point at the residence but two bs, and then she would go. Oh okay! Well, you know you, I missed you would not sign up for the advance thing and, unlike I'm, not going to do that, but on day three I was like I'm on the fence and she's like nope. You promises. I got that's true, but it's funny because go and knowing that it's a bunch of b as knowing that its self help called not liking, most of the stuff that your hearing not being able to do all this stuff being fully cognizant of it. I would still like maybe I'll go to the very next week, just to see a little bit more. I mean they are that good at it. You can go I've road map. I think I, Thank you for your honesty and I thank your wife she's, a keeper yeah, the whole idea of, if you're, going to infiltrate, to have somebody who's your ground base to reality tests to debrief way. You even have a code word fur like Syn, the police and get me out of here people

Often sign and notaries document had a time I'm going into this meeting, because I have a loved one in it, and I know that there is a possibility, might get brainwashed. I my if, at any point a happy happy I will stay, please bring out the star immense and remind me that I have promised my love one, that I'm gonna take three weeks and an talk to a cold experts, afterward vow to to it's really not not under estimate the power of hypnosis a mind, control yet I mean I went in there knowing almost exactly what was going on the entire time and having read this is called danger all these things on the website and I was very, very much it sort of enter in the room, and then, it just slowly you, if you stay, I mean look how much, do in your sleep, deprived and you ve got underground thirty six hours of bullshit like there's only so much that you can do and exert

fortunately, a lot of people leaving called I've heard this dark during our time with his mental health care. Folks just kind of out of there we'll house, they don't really know what's going on, and if you try to find a called counselor culture This and now they ve got like fate, cult councillors and culture. Its just crazy. To me there are a lot of phony people. People who are not recall, members were not meant the health professionals who don't have the credentials who were out there hang a shingle and I've taught. With numerous former called members who actually set up phony websites, saying that they were ex members to try to trap all to see whether or not anyone was having doubts or to find it If anyone is trying to rescue someone out of a cold say to be really care, follow if you have a loved one on a group to to understand their very high tech. Alot of these groups. You don't want

you don't want to use your real identity, it's better to have someone else that is associated with you ET there's a lot of safety things that have to have to go into place and you mentioned Doktor drew. I actually did an interview with them along yeah. That's why that's why this came up my son, I'm doing called intervene only goes out. It Stephen Hassen and I said yeah memory is good memory, so that the thing is: is some I'm thrilled to do this with you, because its epidemic and and the knowledge of how to manipulate people for the good or for the bad has never, been greater and, of course, is a mental health. professional I want more people. Did for the good to help? People change their lives and good ways that are ethical to help. People have integrity. Yeah there's examples of that is going to say, if you think about the the

the whole prison system in the United States, its not or oriented to helping people change their identity for the better. Now it's it's meant to in force, then label them and keep them in our stock, and it's a shame because we have the knowledge of how to help people here from traumatic, childhood wounds and all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and to become functional. Members of of the world It was the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Steve Hoskin, we'll be right back after this. Thank you for this supporting show your support of our advertisers, keeps us on the air to learn more get links to all the great discounts you just heard. So you can check out those amazing sponsors visit Jordan, Harbinger, nightgowns lash deals enough get the working for is episode that link is in there no to Jordan, Harbinger Gunflash podcast, and if you listening to us on the overcast player, please click that little star. Next to the episode. It really helps us out now

Inclusion of our episode with Steve, Hudson income my control. You have some great examples of persuasion and using called examples of mind. Control inviting people draw their own parallels, and I thought this is fascinating, so somebody's inlet say some kind. other religious called and instead of saying, like. I can't believe you believe this you can. You can see the example you gave in correct me. If I'm wrong, you can tell an analogous story like there's a can. You believe, there's group in Montana, where they think that some korean guy the Messiah in this person who believes that some, I dunno Taiwanese guys the Messiah will be like that's unbelievable. These people are ridiculous and there's subconscious brain. I'm hey it's gotta, be that will then are to draw some parallels. Of course, the cognitive dissonance will eventually dover and smash that, but it will as these little bits of seeds and your idea here the point here, was: u dont convince people to leave. You just make an opportunity for their authentic self, as opposed to their called identity, to come out and start

something which requires report building and a lot of I'm picture It is this one of those times we are showing them photos of their childhood during, like the their family intervention in their starting to get more emotional and the cracks begin to show. Where am I d ever just watch too much Tv no. No. No, it's that's, definitely a major piece, but it's I'm usually recommending that the family show that stuff to the person before the intervention itself to soften them up to get them more. Powered to accept a voluntary to revenge. Uncas. Remember I don't kid now: people are them against their will learn right, sir. oh So, yes have you watch captain Marvel? Not yet the movie so it's a story about coal mine control on the character. That's all I don't Serbia's spoil our allow. But it's about you know her.

Waking up to our true self, and Her friends are showing her pictures and reminding our of experiences and- and and saying? We know you you're a good person, you know it's scary, to me, though, that you even mention as its cultural leave, baggage and people even did they leave so people will leave and they'll think all my kids are gonna die of something and you are shown, I think, was it moon, the called showed you like the exorcist. This is gonna happen to you in it sounds so dumb if you're not gonna call, but if you're in it in the moment. What are they tell you like this I ve made this movie and is good at Moon Himself- said that the God made the exorcist feet in this movie is a prophecy of what would happen to you. If you leave, the unification in church. Of course, he was laughing when he said it right laughing because a ridiculous it is, but I

had been so indoctrinated to believe you is the greatest man in human history and was capable of reading mines and knowing the future and etc? such rather when he said it was like ok this, but it scared the hell out of me, no pun intended And I didn't understand that this is what is known as phobia indoctrination. That's one of the main pieces of the e of the bite model about people me to have these irrational fears that if they ever question the leader or leave the group terrible things are gonna happen to them and in my book, freedom of mind, I have four pages single space of the most common phobias that I have encountered in my career hit by a car yoga. Can't sir, you die, drug overdose, you'll, be possessed?

Demons you'll be reincarnated ten thousand times, but the eyes Jordan, is that when you're undermine control called mind, control You can imagine being free and happy and fulfilled spiritually, you can only generate negative models in your brain and at the point that a purse needs, a former member who is happy, and functional and doing great things. It starts to open that door or of ha how come it's not possessed how come you're, not you know, spinning our green vomit and liberating and spinning around his head. sounds a lot like they're trying to sort of imprint PTSD, and you see the same thing from North Korea. They say: oh this defector. All these two factors that go South Korea, they're just beg to come back or

they die because it so poured out. I mean: there's all this fear is largely they're telling people that I mean I've seen movies in North Korea, whether like people in America have to drink melted, snow because there's no water and there's no food, they get one public snow per day. It's like the homage snow. Do you think we arrogant fill up on we need to know it's. It's the above the cure to brainwashing in mind. Control is perspective and and we need to have critical, analytic thinking that goes along with our emotional brain an hour and unconscious mind. So the case of fear. We need to have fear when there's a legitimate concern or danger, but we it's reality test. If something is wrong absurdity, like some the drawing of truck line on a carpet telling you that Scott on thousand vaults of

charity and if you step on it, you're gonna die yes, Madame need to know that electricity isn't conducted by carpeting and chalk many guy right reared and even though the person is very and saying an authoritative and uses the hypnotic voice, its ball. It's real this concept, you say floating, so even after leaving call literature trigger words. They can actually reach rigour. Your called programming, even years later and Oh there's their people that you mention in the book and that I've seen on they need to change associations with like music sounds places, habits food they can't they can't you, jargon. They have to make all these new associations it. So bizarre. It's like this stuff is really in there and kind and ever goes away,

I can go away and that's what I teach my clients as like. It's your mind: you should control it and if you like, a certain kind of music you should be able to listen to it and not think of the call to, even though the call used it in its indoctrination and it's about you having an internal locus of control, fear, experience and eyes, avoiding stimuli or triggers is is is not a good long term solution for someone being healed from a destructive called mind, control group, so the fastest way by the way, Jordan to get over a trigger like that is, is direct experience again. So if you afraid of a dog, an you deliberately, look at a picture of a dog or go and pet a puppy. That's gonna! Be there ass the sway to get over it there.

visualize it you go to a therapist, you could do systematic desensitization if, if it's too I refer you to look at a picture of a dog order: tat a puppy but if it does anyone listening and they have all kinds of phobias left over from their cult experience like a phobia of the Bible, for example like this, so many people we're traumatized by fire. Christian Bible cults that there pray to look at a bible just brings back the river called programming, the best way to get over it is does go. Take a college course to take a course online to study the Bible Right naked, aggravating with it if we are with a grin showed person who actually knows the Bible, that's the best. Way to do it to challenge the indoctrination and to re frame it and through and through neutralize it

I was just going to say in my case when I first got out of the moon is when somebody said hey: did you see the moon last night? It would Rigour me back to kneeling on a concrete floor in front of this fact. Korean billion ere, I thought was the Messiah and I had to ask myself before I met the group when I the word moon. What do they think of thought of the satellite that went around the earth here and there I just said moon and I thought of the satellite moons Satellite Moon and web- well said Mon. I thought of the satellite. What Are you most worried about right now? I know that we talked about business calls which is actually something most people think about. You know em l having called mind control, such being used routinely. Also I was gonna, say Enron. A friend of mine who wrote a book about political, called, stood a wonderful critique of Enron as a corporate qualities working on another paper.

there are no slow the blood. Corporation, that that was very popular. What do I worry about? I worry about governments a fork. About China. I worry about you know any. Anyone who aspires to be a dictator who wants to abolish or free press who won Stu and slave and any critics are former members of their administration or regime, and I think we're dead, being point now were either the bulk of humanity wakes up to understand the psychology of influence, or they say to it. So I am optimistic. That's why I love your show and I am happy to do this podcast with you think, there's a lot of people who there's something very drastically wrong with, with the whole influence

mechanisms around the world You say that guy I look at ISIS. I see this look at our guide. I see this, but I also look at white christian identity and I dont mean people who are white. They go to a true christian church. I mean Hake groups that are white or nationalist. I look I in North Korea, and I see so many parallels, but I also see the same thing happening in ST gangs, and so you these mind, control regimes. I'm wondering, do you think in Kenya? strap await this sort of recent trend of let's say mindfulness, which leads to these whew. Influencers online. Do you think that control It's too this because I see people online and I got this person is dangerous and in people don't really know it. Yet there Where can I I think it's very just thing you bring up mindfulness. Yes, so

any technique can be used in an ethical way or an unethical away and any technique mines technique can be good for some people. but not for everybody and the whole mindfulness field is now taking off in a very concerning way. Where, where their authority figures were being treated like gurus and others and you necessarily healthy ones for having being in your body and having having peace. And having integrity, actually just at a conference on a cold conference in England and I met- professor of neuroscience, at Brown University who, is researching the negative effects of mindfulness and there are a lot of them. So it's not a universal panacea, nor is

transcendental meditation, which was another program that I saw at this conference ex members. Talking about what it was really like. upper levels of thirteen movement but like meditation, but the key is you you need to be in control the technique and it has to be a technique that that resonant with who you are as a person, and getting Emil's recently another popular personal growth podcast that I really like had this guy on recently and his video got over a million views, I think, is, as name is like sod guru or something right, and somebody reached out to me and goes hey, don't have this guy on. I was like I wouldn't, but just out of curiosity wine, he told me the story of how his wife went to these sites, RO meditation sessions ended up going to India, leaving our whole family disconnecting for everybody getting divorced. Then

a year and a half later coming back out and going hey. You wouldn't believe it. That's a call. Never one goes yeah. We knew Where were you for the last year and a half two years and she's like I just got I went to I want to do this, M retreats and then dot dot dot. I'm living in India working for free at some vague restaurant or whatever, helping other people. here and she goes surprise. It's a call, and it was just so easy to find something that seems really innocuous. Look. We just want to keep a chill life stressful, do t em and the new data like Scientology you get to the higher level. May go by the way this guy's he's a profit, and we want to do that as of freaks well out, but here you go and then you believe it gives you already in yet to feed and roads, but I I guess I want to use the story you just shared, as is an opportunity to say hey. If you care about a family, member or friend that you see is getting involved with a destructive grew, and

but they're, saying oh, but I'm a happier than I have ever been in my life leave me alone, I'm an adult, don't listen to them and just now that they don't understand, what's being done to them and they all thank you for an intervention my if my family, when I first came back from the moonies, had said Steve. If this group legitimate. It will stand up to scrutiny to us favour promise? You won't go back for the next two weeks and let's research together What have you done that I was a reasonable request? the thing is right now with the internet. Is that a lot of the destructive called sir burying them the best critical information of that time They are so you can't just be satisfied with the first ten hits on Google anymore. When your way you're doing you know the name of the grew plus called plus x, member,

was brainwashing. You have to go deeper into the whip and in some cases, go on the web archive itself we back machine archive dot org to find the Lee Juicy articles and the important information yeah, I think you'd mentioned in the book that there are calls that by things they purchase or bully, on profits, like cult awareness network used to be the call to where network. Now it's a front group which is really scary, they thereon us Scientology, bankrupted, Jordan and and they got all the files to in the bankruptcy court which is crazy and and on completely, and a lot of people are intimidated by wealthy, yet I'll call threatening to sue. So, even though, media will do show with me and then they won't arid because they're afraid of being sued, that's cool,

Is it because they mentioned you mentioned specific names here, as I mentioned, the killer groups jails, should I be worried about this. That, naturally, is just my should! Yes, you should beak. We know you should be our lawyer, so you wanna talk legally about in a way that is responsible, that this is an yes, you should be concerned in the sense that groups June like negative information, told about them so crazy, believable You have me on your show about groups. Don't like me at all. I say kinds of mean things and nasty things that they make up about me. Just absolutely mine blowing it's scary. It makes me think. Maybe I should believe out do I do. I need the blue. Bout Scientology people know what we're talking about anyway thing. I don't think so, because they ve kind

exhausted themselves in the legal system. Harassing people like this much information. Leah remedy, as a young ward, winning show that ending and you mentioned T Amber TM, doesn't want publicity hands if they threaten to sue. You just say yeah: let's do it. Let's have some attacks funny though they won't pursue it, and that's always been useful strategy with called says they want. They want you to back down and if you say, nope not backing down, let's dance than they awake as they realise that all groups more negative publicity for them. If the yes, oh yeah, the interesting I mean I would, I would love if somebody said you lied about us and I'll, be they all its examined, everything that was said and of public forum, because I can I dont, let

people say via their mine, have to have a critic and ex member exactly I ll go out with each other. Yet that's the plan that makes perfect sense to me. I would love to do that and then we'll see looks better in the end, that's for sure then the truth will stand up to scrutiny. Stephen event you so much for this has been so interesting and that the country, techniques. What to look for all of this is absolutely been fascinating and hopefully very useful to everyone. That's listen! So very frank. You and combating called mind. Control is thirty years old, tells my story about the moonies in depth and a good overview, freedom of mine book is no kind of the advance stuff on how they help somebody wake up from from a mine tropical willing. That nationals the book was excellence and willing to your website as well. Thank you very much for your time. I know we. We did a big ol interview here, but it was worth it

We appreciate it and thanks for your good work, Jason The conclusion here, Abbe, the same, we didn't even get to a lot of business and am alarmed staff, and a lot of you their types of courts. We didn't have a really good. touch on some of this stuff, the book at a time more and he's updating it, and it's just theirs. It seems it's a little depressing there's so much on calls. We literally ran at a time even with two episodes. The well is so deep on calls that either we could be talking verve. We actually have an entire show every week about cults. They go so deep and His love haven't Stephen hasten on the show, because he's been there, it's not like some academic, it is giving us advice. You know based on stuff these red or interviews it he's done. He was a Mooney, so He has been in the belly of the beast, which is fantastic. take so this was it. I mean this is a great site, episode, so I thank you so much

Stephen for common on the show this was this was so enlightening, and I can is this. Every time I get a new friend that once the sign up for urban life, yet exactly exactly great big. Thank you to him the book called called mind, control has got a new book coming out. We're gonna haven't back on a show for that were teaching to connect with great people like Stephen and manage relationships using systems in tiny habits over at our six minute networking course, which is free over it. George harbinger dot com, slash course. I know you're gonna. Do it later the problem with kicking the canned down the road is you cannot make up for lost time when it MR relationships and networking the number one mistake. I see people make as postponing this thinking. You don't need it not dig in the well before you get thirsty once relationships? It's too late. these drills are designed to take a few minutes today. This is the stuff I wish I knew a decade ago. It's fluff. It is crucial in you can find it all for free.

Jordan, Harbinger, dot, com, slash course in mostly guess you're on the show they subscriber the course in the news that are to come and join us for that, as well, speaking to building relationships, you can always reach out or follow us on Social, at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This shows used in association with Podcast one in this episode was co produced by Jason to Philip and Jan Harbinger Show notes in work it's by Robert Furmity music Evan Viola and I'm your host Jordan Harbinger our advice opinions and those of our guests are their own? And yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, to do your own research before implementing anything you here on the show and remember we eyes by lifting others the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful which should be in every episode. So please here. The show with those you love and even those you down in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live What you listen and will see a next time, the world over does the smart. We think your education should be smart too, with the flax path learning for

from compelling university. You can set your own debt. Lines and leverage your experience to move forward at your pace, visit, Capella, dot you to learn more capella university. Don't just learn, learn smarter. If you're struggling with alcohol or drugs recovery centres of Amerika can help the holidays are over the new year is here and the time to act is now expert private care, a recovery and as of America will get you on the road to recovery today, so called wanna. Eight eight eight recovery. Now at our fully accredited world class treatment centres in Devon, Pennsylvania and maize, landing New Jersey, you will be treated with compassion, dignity and respect by our dedicated team of professionals. You will also benefit from specialised programmes, twenty four hour, medical care and the comfort of our outstanding facilities.

Let us help you. We will answer your call twenty four seven and can get you into treatment as soon as today. If outpatient care is right for you, you can receive a safety assessment and attend therapy in person or virtually, and because we accept most private insurance plans, you get premium care without the premium Don't wait, start your new year start your new life today call one eight eight eight recovery. Now that's one. Eight eight eight recovery,