« The Jordan Harbinger Show

555: Jessica Tracy | Why Pride is the Deadly Sin of Success

2021-09-02 | 🔗

Jessica Tracy (@ProfJessTracy) is a professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, where she also directs the Emotion & Self Lab. She is the author of Take Pride: Why the Deadliest Sin Holds the Secret to Human Success. [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh listen!] 

What We Discuss with Jessica Tracy:
  • Pride is a universal human emotion and a force that can be harnessed to help humans succeed — it’s a key ingredient to confidence.
  • Understand the difference between hubristic and authentic pride — why you should seek out one but try to minimize the other.
  • Learn how pride intersects with grit.
  • Identify pride to gain an advantage in shifting your own behavior and knowing how to react to others.
  • Discover how the statuses of dominance and prestige are affected by pride.
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/555

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show people show pride after experiencing a success, people from countries all over the world and in any one he watched the Olympics and see this. We actually did you study looking at the ads and that's how we found it, but we also looked a blind. Allenby adds people on the Paralympic Games, and so we had a sample of people who are congenitally blind. You ve, never been able to see and are thinking was both people that they show the private splay. That's pretty likely to mean that this is indeed an hard wired, because it's hard to explain how they could, learned it. You know without having were seen. Anyone else show it and that's exactly download even congenitally blind athletes after winning a match, would show pride. Welcome The show I'm Jordan Harbinger on the georgian Harbinger show what he called the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have enough conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts entrepreneurs, spies psychologists,
the occasional billionaire investor, drug traffickers or legendary Hollywood director, and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a our understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker if you're new to the show warrior lookin for a handy way to tell your friends about it. We now have episode starter pacts. These are collections of your face Episodes organised by popular topics that help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the shelf. Just visit, Jordan, Hart dot com, slash starts to get started port help. Somebody else get started with us, I always appreciate that today from the vaults, we're talking with Jessica, Tracy author of take pride as well. Disgusted, pride is really a magnifying glass that we ve started can put on ourselves will hear about the two types of pride. You should have them when you should seek to limit them and, of course, will learn how to move from one to the other day unhealthy to the healthy forms of pride that actually can serve us will explore how pray
forms those around us both at home and work and dictates the level of achievement. People of reaching our lives, of course, of Europe too proud you limit yourself in yada. Yada will go into that. Of course. Spotting and being aware of pride and how it gives us a huge advantage in shifting our own behaviour and knowing the reaction to others, depending on their sources, tat expressions of bright. the great arrow and our quiver on typing human personality and predicting the behaviour of others, as well as spotting If you're wondering how I managed to book all of these great authors, thinkers and creators every single week, it's because my network on treating you Build your network for free over at Jordan Harbinger not come slash course: court, free was again in the most. That gets you here on the show subscribed to the course contribute to the course come join us you'll, be in smart company where you belong now. Here we go with Jessica Tracy Jessica thanks for coming
on your time is in demand in the book is really good, and I appreciate you go another thanks. So much thanks for having me, there are two kinds of pride: explain this and tell me what this is all about, because, first of all, when I think of pride, I kind of thing alright there's the ego and that this kind of all I've got really for it. I just think I'm proud of this- I'm proud of that. Sometimes it's healthy. Sometimes it's not while you ve done the work on it. And there are two types of pride, I want to know why these are important yeah and I think you're intuitive kind of view of it. Probably isn't it yeah that that the issue was sometimes it's girders man's is healthy, and sometimes it's not your rights and what
found is, but that's because these two kinds of pride then good one or healthy when we call authentic pride and that's the private, you feel when you ve worked really hard for up an accomplishment or an achievement that important you important. Your sense of self made typically makes you feel kind of a genuine sense of self confidence. It's what we feel when we feel like we accomplish things we forget about ourselves and a real, genuine way. The other kind of pride we call heuristic pride since the pride that much more about arrogance, egotism, considered this we often identify and other people. I think as much as we feel it ourselves were just as like Brazil that guy he's he's got you Bristol pride, but we do feel it and ourselves as well. We found the people will report feeling hubris decry they wore port feeling, arrogant overconfident. I think he would say and what it looks like we found that he birthday pride is linked to a lot of psychological problems. People who tend to feel this kind of pride tell him poor. So surely
ships, they don't care so much about others, their unenthusiastic. As a result, they dont have great friendships or EU interpersonal relationships are romantic relationships, whereas a thinly bride is really great for all that stuff enterprise make Wanna, like others, be close to others and help others, and it helps build our relationships no way when I was younger and less emotionally healthy. I feel, like I leaned much more towards hubris to private. Even then, I kind of new was fake. It was like well if they don't like me, they're idiots, no screw them, and I don't care about them and eminent. You know not work with them on this project or sabotage. Their workers spread rumours about them and we were talking like middle school Highschool, Crap Ola, here but even then I kind of realized I wouldn't even thought about. That is pride. It was so transparently false and I think, as adults it seems like we get really good kidding ourselves about what type of pride were actually experiencing. The line seems to get thinner as I get older and better rationalizing bad behavior tat S really interesting
say when you were younger your kind of aware of the falseness of hubris deprived. As I absolutely agree, it is based on something artificial right. It really is this defensiveness sordidness unconscious or conscious in some cases feeling of insecurity and the way that we cope with. Security is to fight against the you'll. Let me Walter, I'm not like you more. I'm gonna show you how to fighting being announced its rights to bullying really kind of aggressing out against others as a way to protect the self, and I think, you're you know it's interesting. Young people might be aware What they're doing I think you're right that adults oftener than we do get ourselves me, get really good at deceiving ourselves in thinking now I am the best I absolutely should be acting like this, I deserve to be the basque people should look at me. People should treat me this way. I am entitled to this. We really gonna believe this grandiose sense of self that we ve constructed. In many cases driver who lives, we ve been constructions, grandiose itself as a way of protecting ourselves. From that insecurity right, it seems like it's a construct that we create an order to know
said, protect ourselves and the lot of some cost involved right, because when you were a kid you can kind ago today, I'm this well today I'm I'm that ok, I know not doing that anymore, but as an adult, you can't go well in this way for twenty years, maybe I should totally do a one. Eighty, and luckily, usually for us workin on ourselves. Here it's going to require a one eighty to get out of it. It's usually five degrees to the left, eight degrees to the right right. It's like steering a shit but in the same way that it is like steering a ship, it can be hard to go while I've just made up of huge facade. That is terrible and nuts Bring me well and that has destroyed So my relationships instead of death, going down on it. Maybe I should figure out how to fix the problem yeah. I think you're, absolutely right that we get so locked into the sense of ourselves. Really hard to get out of it, especially if our entire sense himself worth is based on the right of women. come to believe, while only reason people like me, no imprison people look up to me or do want them to do is because they believe in this concept
me too, I know. Is it real? That's really, I think about that, but I think you're absolutely right. But when it comes down to its people, always are happy to see someone be less arrogant right there never disappointed by that, and so, if someone who has behaved, that way can switch gear is about cancer to say you know what I'm gonna. Listen to what other people say this time, I'm not gonna. Just in both my own view, I'm actually gonna too smart people who have advised me an internal, listen to them and see what they have to say that always gonna be welcomed. Never gonna be paying that's my who we thought you were in that always gonna be appreciated by one's friends, and I think it really can change a person's life relationships, You looked into the cognitive dissonance, that's created when somebody views us one way and we actually view ourselves a different way and what that effect might have, because I feel like that really does intersect well with pride, for example, if I think of myself- as well. You know I'm not that good at this round, not that good at that are not that knowledgeable in this field, and yet I'm getting
you, mail from people, as I have been for the last ten years that say you're doing this, and this is amazing. I really like that. That was very difficult for me for the first five years. White melted into that identity yet, and I feel like it was really unhealthy. It basically highlighted all the things I thought were shortcomings rat then made me think that they were somehow being replaced with more authentic pride, and so it seems like if you let your Bristol pride go unchecked, and if you let people also fill your head with things that should fill you with authentic pride. You end up with this weird gap between where you're authentic pride should be You're hubris pride is and this gap you can live in there and it's not nice yeah. There's this theory called self verification very by this ass psychologist name, though swine, talk a lot about this idea, that we don't like it when people see us in a way that doesn't resonate with how we see ourselves, even if they see us kind of what you are suggesting. This is better than we see ourselves right surveys it all. You know you're so,
in this way we sort of Philip. Nor am I not right now. If you don't really know me, we don't really like it and for people who have low self esteem. It leads to all kinds of problems, because I ran away they actually gonna wanna be validated in their losses. steam at one level, one level little feel good about themselves, level. If you feel bad about yourself in someone else's, always how you know your great great, it doesnt really help it just makes you feel like you're, not understood, and that can be really problem can, I think, you're right. The two prides do play into that's right, because one way of coping with that is the sort of very those feelings of not feeling It encourages go if they think I'm great, I'm gonna go with them. and it doesn't feel real. You know it does feel fastened. It does become this artificial kind of hubris do pride, which can lead to problems in the book. It seems that hubris decried is a sore I have a lot of human down falls and unfortunately the pride lies at the heart of human nature. Let's talk about what you brisket pride can do.
and why it's bad, and then we can sort of move into why pride is good and necessary for us to survive and evolve and be where we are today. Is this humans shirt, so he rested. Cried we found basically because its defensive, because it is this thing that people experience as a way of protecting themselves his people to engage in a sort of grandiose, arrogant manner where there are constantly talking about how great they are showing. superiority over others and people, basically as a way of kind of feeling, it about themselves, become quite willing to put others down to manipulate others take advantage of them. In one study we found that a you know: it's not just the case that people who disposition they tend to feel he burst out, crying happens, a trade do this, but actually anyone manipulated to experience the proprietor through experimental methods. We lead people to fill in Bristol pride by asking them to recall a time when they felt he rested pride and we ve all been Therewithal had at. So anyone can do this when, in that experience, when feeling those emotions, people
actually tend to be more mean put down. Others were different from that. So we did this. We asked people to make judgments about people of a different ethnic groups, but we're minority ethnic group or gay people if they were straits for minority sexual group, in both cases, feelings if he were surprised, lead people to actually make worse. Judgments of these other remember suggesting that he Bristol Crag and actually people to engage and prejudice, and it makes sense, I think, is engaging prejudice. Is it wait. I feel good about yourself right if you sort of had this artificial sense of self, and you need a constantly bolstered putting down others who are easy targets set stigmatize others tend to be. Is one in doing that job. Is there really societal, problematic way? You can imagine Allah YO pitfalls, there haven't society of our leaders feel out. If he Bristol Privacy, Bristol pride, does get people power. If those leaders engage and prejudice which I think might happen, yeah, of course looking at things like a common and emotions and where they appear in our mind in our body? What we think is shaped by, of course, how we feel,
and then we rationalize that behaviour in our brain tries to figure out. Why were feeling a certain way and back it up with court on quote fats or alternative faxes? The buzz word of the day happens to be, then you can say something like. Oh well, I'm prejudice against dispersed because, if you Bristol pride, but I'm gonna rationalize- that I was watching something advice- the other day about right wing extremists in national socialism just like asian people, gonna look like cats, so they must be lower on the evolutionary scale and equally cats and not humans, and I was just like this from a guy that has like three teeth right, so the curly brisket pride playing a role in this can we have pride serve, and not the other way around a minute seems like you. Bristol cried basically turn us into a slave and a lot of ways, because then a dictator behaviour in negative ways- yeah. No, I actually think so, but we can that's the beauty of our enterprises, and I really think people often distinguish between having alone.
right or too much pride now, actually think it's about quantity. I think it's more about quality, and I think if you have the right kind of pride, it can be great for you ran and that's what I've been deprived as authentic cried doesn't make people put others down right. We found no evidence that, in fact, when we ve experimentally, manipulated people to feel at the deprived, the actually respond by being nicer to other people who are different from them. They show empathy towards our group's right. Without groups of people, minority groups were different and I think that's because When you genuinely forget about yourself, when you feel confident like your accomplished, there's no reason to put others down and you should have can be more generous about it. You can help others, you can give others advice and that's what he often deprived makes people want to do. It makes us wanna, take care of others and and I think this evolutionary reasons for that's right up and we think evolve to help people attain prestige, which is occurring of high rank. That's based on respect for prestigious leaders are the ones that we look up to,
and in order to get prestige, you have to be admired. You also have to be well liked. Rikers, prestige is the kind of leadership that followers willingly grant reaches. Our are prestigious leaders, because there are people that Bali do we look after them, but we like them. We think they're gonna, help us and so it is very useful for at that prior to kind of engender this willingness to help its willingness to advise and allow others to one from you. I want to die of deeper into authentic pride in a bit of course, but I want a kind of highlight the differences as well ego versus fulfilment. What causes different types of ride to occur, because it is clear that we have one or the other are one and the other in what behaviour this causes, but do we know why we end up with you Bristol narcissistic pride? What causes that? Because I feel When we highlight those things, we can then sort of highlight aright than what causes authentic pride? How can we get more of that?
the direction I wanted to show her yeah. So I mean at a basic tenet, experiential cognitive level. People tend to feel you pursue prided are more likely to feeling Bristol cried if day a tribute something about themselves. their success to something global and uncontrollable and stable about who they are so, for example, work on a student, and I do well on an exam, and I say that, because I'm just really smart right, that's something I can't really control it stable and it's not an inch
age. That is more likely leader. He rested pride than if I were to say you know I did well not exam, because I studied really hard. That's a specific behaviour, that's more controllable! It's less stable at something that I actually have the power to change or not, and that's what leads to attempt it pride when we actually attribute events do things that are more control on unstable states can have a natural should cognitive level, the distinction, but I think they're, broader personality differences that these people to make these kinds of attributions right. So someone who is more narcissistic as a personality disposition that person is more likely to make the kinds of attributions that will lead to hubris decried. Correspondingly, someone who has genuine self esteem, not narcissistic, but generally fills a true sense of self confidence That person is more likely to make the kinds of attributions that will lead. You often deprived the starts to make more sense. When I think about the kids, who I grew up with that were maybe really well off in their first car was a b W convertible and things like that they weren't necessarily bad people, but as
got older? I notice that their level and no matter what they did was still growing for a lot of these guys and girls. Because what had happened was their parents set them up to win in such a way that, if anything went wrong, it's sort of really put to add their ego and their insecurities, because they were probably secretly worried that they ve been hand everything and were not sure as to whether or not they words bring things or they were just a fortunate winner. Of the lottery upon where you're born and who your parents are in that got worse overtime if they didn't really create their own achievements, if they didn't work hard and Ethel, attics or school, or something like that got worse and worse and worse, as they saw other people who are like them develop and more healthy ways. We are absolutely. I think that if you base your sense of self worth on the staff, you have these kinds of things but fancy cars, and you are
and who got that stuff raiding? You know deep down. I have the start, not because of any thing I've done or any kind of you no hard work. I've put in Unifil hubris, decried right and it's not to say don't be a rich kid don't have stuff dancers did not base your sensibly all right, so you can know yeah. You know my parents had enough money to buy me this car and I'm really fortunate to have that in Ireland Do my own thing and find ways of using a car using the things that have been given to have my own accomplishments. can have a real basis for filling up anti pride, but if you're constantly basing your sense of self worth on stuff, you ve gotten due to others You know it's due to others that you need to somehow find a way of attributing that success for that accomplishment to yourself it's gonna be artificial right of course, and then you end up with that. Narcissistic cried that covers up the ego and the deep seated in securities cigarette sort of pudding with cream on the turd right, instead of actually cleaning it up in the first place, and it seems like
worse. You feel, of course, the more strongly you're going to react, because you want to cover those feelings of shame and it could be a real vicious cycle. I would imagine TAT night think so absolutely because you re the more that sort of your covering it up the more you know that you're lying and seating herself, the more shame the come just stay there and gets buried the more covering up and lying there you have to do your listening to. Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Jessica, Tracy, we'll be right. Back now, back to Jessica, Tracy on the Jordan Harbinger Show is pride hard wired, or is this a social construct that we're dealing with here? Now? It's is headway, and this is one of the meetings we found is that people all over the world has tried to do this by studying the Nonverbal to slay the people showing their feeling cried. So they engage in this kind of expensive pastoral behave.
Are there had told, sadly, smile of it and we ve shown photos of people showing pride to people all over the world. We went to procure foster, which is in West Africa and showed photos of pride displays tat villagers living in this country area world countryside mud huts, she knew no electricity, no plumbing really no contact with western cultures, and they looked at these photos. Nay said: yeah, that's pride right, which is we got a nice evidence that this is something that people all over the world. Now it's not something we ve created an american culture or western culture, something that people really no way of accessing those cultures. Nonetheless, now at the everything we found, I should say is that people show pride after experiencing a success
people from countries all over the world and anyone who watched the Olympics and see this. We actually did a study looking at Olympia ads in that's how we found it, but we also looked a blind olympiad people in the Paralympic Games, as we had a sample of people who are congenitally blind. You ve never been able to see and are thinking was full of people like that they show the pride display. That's pretty likely to mean that this! innate in hard wired, because it's hard to explain how they could have learned it. You know without having ever seen anyone else show it and that's exactly what we found that even congenitally blight athletes after winning a match, would show pride right. There's no one says look if you win and they announce your name, raise your hands up really high in the air smile and jump around a lot, and that's all you.
go. To your excited, I mean that's the only alternative have offices in some people about you that well nigh, who knows, raise your hands in the air that their songs and even say put your hands up, and I can, I think, but we found things like trust expansion right. It's hard to imagine that these people are told, expand your chest, like that's a really kind of specific small grain behaviour. That is hard to imagine that the work that way always a possibility right, yeah sure, gingerbread, breathing and stand up straight elongated spine. We want to see the Chin Elevated, a like fifteen degrees. Yeah seems like year. Hypothesis is pro we more likely one combined, especially with other factors as well. So we know we pride. We know a little bit about why we do this when we look at things like chimps and guerrillas and stuff like that, how does pride function, their because whenever we look at animals all the stuff that humans do tends to be just exaggerated times, a hundred because they dont have language and so I'm wondering, did you look at you in grilling, go okay, this is the function. Pride serves inhumanity, probably except for when a chip does it wrong, big it killed or how
there's somethin like that yeah? No, actually, I think it's a really useful way to try to figure out why we have tried and where comes from to look at some of our non human primates ancestors, we can't look the ancestors, but we can look at our cousins, which is which helps are, in fact, there's a lot of evidence from private houses to suggest the chimps. Do this thing called a bluff display, and it looks a lot like the proud expression right is really stand up on their hind legs, which is how chimps, usually stammering, usually are four legs, but they stand up on their hind legs. They push their chests out. Their hair color stands up on end and what's known, his pillow erection sort of like the chills, but it makes them look bigger. Basically, an alpha temple do it now for male. If he feels like he's being challenged a way of saying, hey I'm, the boss, you better back off you better watch out the waves of threatening challenger, basically, This is not really how we use the pride display most the time we usually experience. Prime showed the display, after we had achieved, meant not kind of before, as some sort of agony sticking counter some sort of fight as a way of frightening,
Let me do that and I think we do that, but that's much more of dominance displaying its more intentional. It's more surrounding to show this guy what I'm doing so. I think that the difference between humans and shrimps- and I think it something that's evolved along with humans, unique sets itself. I don't think chimps experience pride in the way that we do simply they don't have a complex sense of self and the way that we do right, they can recognise themselves in a mirror which is quite advanced. Very few animals can do that. We don't many evidence to suggest that they hold it mind. A complex areas suffer presentations that we hold. The centre. You know who I am now was wildly tomorrow, my relative place in every different group that I have and how it varies across the different groups. I might be high status and one group and low status and another group and all the various ways in which were able to think about ourselves an incredibly complex ways. I dont think chimps have that and the fact that we have it gives us a lot more than they have in terms of getting along with others, accomplishing things being motivated to achieve certain kinds of things and hold up a certain reputation, she's a lot of advantages,
Having a himself writing with it comes this needs a sort of after you haven't accomplishment, convey it to others through a pride expression. That's why we do it after rather than before. I soon that's because that effects social status and things like that in modern society, yeah, no doubt we found that when we see other humans display pride, we had is unavoidable automatic sense that they deserve my status. We ve done stays where we ve shown people were clearly low status will have a homeless person, for example, shown pride. We know homeless people through the lowest status segment of society, but we see them show pride, our brains automatically perceive them as high status. We can't help make our perception of Ami instruct people in various ways to not do that. They serve can't override that tendency to see deprived expression is indicating high status and that generally, the crests poachers as well. We actually do the study in Fiji again with people who are in a totally cut off in the western world. I'm uneasy pride displays they have the same automatic responses
can't help but see that person is deserving high status. So is the right type of ride, namely authentic pride. Is that somehow then beneficial to society? And if not, why haven't we got rid of it? And now it is it's very much beneficial to decide. I think it's one of them. important reason why our societies are complex and developed as they are actually is because of a hundred pride. I think that its, what motivates us to achieve to do all the great things we do, whether it's hard or science technology or being a good person, whether that means you're taking care of your children, taking care of her family being a good partner. All that stuff. The reason we do it is because we want to feel at the depriving wanted, get about ourselves, I'm only don't feel it when we realise were lacking that sense of up- and you probably don't feel good what we're doing in our lives. We make a change,
and were motivated to make a change because of the desire to feel often deprived. So the book I tell examples of best I can give you an empirical is ever we to study in which we looked at how students responded to exert before they were taken, exam, a real class exams, and then we looked at how they did and we asked them to report it pride, they felt in response, and our thinking was that students, you did really well, would feel a lot about the deprived and then that feeling can motivate them to work even harder. The future they will do even better and surprise to get more success does not exactly what happened. It turn up the people who did well felt pride and they did what and in the future, but the price that they felt had no impact on their future success, because those are people who, regardless their feelings, their studying there is doing well that kind of thing no added succeed, an exam domain, private economic players,
one way or another, what was interesting was that the people who didn't do well unexamined people who did poorly many of those people, told us that they felt a lack of pride. They did not feel often deprived their performance, which is correct they shouldn't and because of that lack of private eye. They change their behaviour. They told us they were gonna studied differently for their next exam. Those differences that sort of new wave, studying or new amount of studying actually lead to an improved performance on the next example, which we were able to trace back directly that lack about the deprived, some other words for people who did badly the lack of pride they felt in their performance directly contributed then changing their performance doing better in the future.
Tells us pride is motivation of the desire to feel pride is what gets a store are right so often deprived as it sounds like its critical for fostering achievement and working on long term goals and putting in the work you mentioned that both forms of pride or adaptive earlier? What is each form of pride? Do that works for us, because it seems like all we ve talked about his hubris decried being bad, but obviously it has a function. Yeah. No, I agree both forms. A pride are adopted in the evolutionary sense, which means I think they help us spread our genes, not psychological sense. I think that an important distinction is something can overspread her genes, but not been good for our psychology right. It can make us not feel like a good person was still having a spread our genes, and I think that's the case. What he rested pride. The reason for this is that both forms of pride help us attain high status. They both help us climb the social actors
get high rank them depriving talked about. It, helps us get prestige by basically making us seek out those accomplishments. Work hard towards achievement. Having achievements is basically a way of telling others that we are an accomplished person who deserves respect power status and other willingly choose to defer to us. They choose to look up to US treatises leaders, because they want to learn from us. They think that we have something valuable to contribute to the group and procedures. People are nice about it right. They like procedures, people, and so they think. Ok with this is gonna be a good deal, could have a leader I like and respect, and here she ll be nice to me. That's where that deprives adaptive. He bristly pride also gets people power, but it's a very different kind of power, and we call this kind dominance
deprived basically motivate people to engage in behaviors like aggression, grandiose, any putting others down. These behaviors allow people to basically take control take charge even when followers don't wanna give the power. So this is sort of the power that comes from intimidation and threat right. This is the leader who is another people look up to him, but people feel they have no choice, but to give it our because he says I mean a fiery. If you don't do it, what I say right: the boss, you kind of constantly uses that threat as a way of retaining power in their bosses like this. Unfortunately, many of us know people I guess whether in Basra, coworker schoolyard bully the person who gets power. My saying, if you don't give me what I want, I'm gonna take your lunch money. I'm gonna beat you up. I'm gonna control this resource that I have often wealth. In a really manipulative and aggressive way, essentially forcing you to give me that
I want and it works. We found them in small groups of undergraduates working together on a task. People who wield dominance actually do get power. You have cut an amazing user groups, people who probably never see each other again, they don't know each other before they have no reason to fear these other people, and yet what they tell us is that guy in the group who they found
kind of threatening and scary who they didn't like. He was a leader he did get our and we value data by having externally outside people watch videos are these interactions and they say at that. Guy was a leader that guy's able to convince people to doctors, opinions. We look at the hebrew measures of who is able to convince people to do what they want the most. The dominant people are quite effective. The prestigious people are too it's not the prestige. Doesnt work, it's a thin. Both work, both in an effective way of getting added group citing that's why he burst deprives adaptive. It helps foster this sense of dominance that neither you nor could have people like you, but you can get power prestigious, something where, if your friend has it and he's your friend, it rubs often use or you want other people around. You too who have prestige because it makes all of you more prestigious. Basically, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts in this way, whereas dominance is kind of a zero sum game where, if you have it, I dont so authentic pride being transitive here. If we're gonna translate this down to
our values scale along with your scale of dominance versus prestige, it seems like we would almost always want to choose authentic pride and prestige over dominance and who brisket pride because its one better in the long run, because you're actually well light in two. You can constantly ratchet that up right. If you look at, celebrities that we like guys like MIKE role, for example, everyone loves that guy. If you hung out with him, you wouldn't be like. I gotta show him better than micro. You just feel like I'm hanging out with. I grow right, so you'd be stoked about that. Why do people choose the strategy of dominance and he risked pride does the strategy. The long term win of authentic pride and prestige, why do people go there? Don't know it's a great questions. I absolutely agree with you that both get you power, but prestige also makes people like you. It's a window, for everyone? You know you as longer staying power, because even if you're no longer able to back up your accomplishments, people like you so they're, not gonna, kick you out. There still gonna, keep you
group, even though you know you're not as high status as you once were dominance as soon as they lose their power there out right, you gonna give the champ when Alpha Jim can no longer back up his claims of threat he's killed over here. waste in various ways. So does the better change in that way, however, it's nice Hannibal for everyone. You know, I think, there's both an objective sense in which the unattainable, if you're, not someone who can accomplish things if you don't the skills or the intelligence. To get things done. It's gonna be very hard for you to attain prestige and, if you're, someone like that, but who still big and strong or wealthy, you might think I'll have to be a low ranking. Member of the group right. That's what happens if you have nothing, if you don't have the wealth or the strength or the smarts, you just a low status group member, that's fine! But if your big and strong wealthy, you may think you know what I can get power. I can run this group and if you don't have intelligence or the competence to get prestige, its advice,
way to go right, there's also personally factors. Some people dispassionately due to a combination of genetics and environment operating. I'm very agreeable right: there's people out there who just kind of irritable, jerky, emotionally unstable, volatile, do personality stuff for those peoples can be very hard to attain. Prestige has an important part of prestige, is getting other people like you being sort of charming being nice being helpful. The others a dominant doesn't have to be well liked. The dominant fact is often not well liked, and so, if you have proven Showing disagreeable personality diamonds are gonna, be a more viable strategy for you take Is the Jordan Harbinger Shell with our guest Jessica, Tracy, we'll be right back thanks, so much for listening the show. I really appreciate that, of course, your attention is the highest compliment you can give, although it doesn't hurt, support our sponsors as well. We took all of the codes all the promo code,
a special you are Elles and landing pages. We put em all in one place. We redesigned this whole page, Jordan, harbinger dot, com, slash deals, we made a whole page, you can search, you can sort, it should be easy to use even on your phone. So please, let us know what you think: Jordan, harbinger dot com, flash deals and please consider supporting those who support us. Don't forget, we ve got worksheets for many. The episodes, if you want drills, exercises the stuff we talk about during the show. All in one easy plays cause. You don't wanna, take notes for yourself, your bench pressing your jogging, you drive, and that link is in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com, slash podcast and now for the rest of my conversation with Jessica Tracy. We see people trying to control pride in certain ways, especially the dominance in your basic pride. I feel like we see people and groups controlling us and looking at high school in middle school and even now in the internet. Let's be real. If you see somebody who you think of this person doesn't deserve the type of pride they have.
You either try to minimize it and ignore them are cast them out or you make fun of them and you may caricatures of them, and we see this we'd surge upon which here, on the show a few months ago, who had helped foster a revolution in the former Yugoslavia against Slobodan Milosevic and one of their main tools was: let's make fun of it because Negative Yoda out gun this dictator, who controls the military and his terrorizing our country and in a standing off against the United States. We can't really minimize it because he's got sick police and is pervasive and our lives. But what we can do is scraping caricatures of him and I think they at one point they had a barrel that had a cartoon. Him kind of spray painted on it made a hammer near there and they had a sign that says you know Wax Lobo and people were just walk.
by bashing this barrel until the police came by and arrested a big spray painted barrel or garbage can, and so they used all these types of techniques to ridicule dictators, and we see this without bore his organization exporting this and other countries as well right of ridicule leaders that we don't like. We see plenty of that happening right now in the United States as well. So there seem to be methods of control against pride that we feel is on certified, does that happen more with you briskly pride, or does it happen equally with authentic pride, as well like gases that it happens? Monte, Cristo pride in service will file question psychological question, so I can draw my psychological expertise that much, but I think it makes sense that would be more effective, with heuristic pride,
Does he really bright? Has this artifice misdemeanants equality that really assertive based on this inflated artificial sense of self? It is a viable way to take someone downright someone who feels a sense of hubris and is constantly ridicule than attacked is going to respond, is going to get really angry. Really upset is gonna, lash out and fight back. That's what people are narcissistic do when their attack, even if it's for something meaningless. Even if it's for something that you think, why would they possibly care about this thing? You know the leader of the country. Why should they care, if someone's making fun of their hair Carter? You know whenever it is to hand size they feel they have? how to defend against everything attack against everything. That's the hubris deprived us that need but constant scented, I'm not good enough to any time. Anyone comes after me. I need to fight back and show that she's an effective means. I think I've kind of getting under someone skin annoying them and
Shelly, revealing to others that you breasted pride. I think the hope in many cases is that other people who support the person will come to see their arrogance eyes. Arrogance, see it for what it is a sort of artifice if they see while this person, who should be caring about these big things, is getting all wrapped up in this little kind of fight this little battlements meaningless. That might be kind of a wake up call to followers people who feel offended pray where the genuine sense of self confidence, I dont, think its particular effective for because, if you truly feel about who you are. If someone makes fond of you were ridicules you, you should be able to come to blow it off right. It's who cares what they think. I know who I am The people who know me know who I am the people respect me respect me for who I am. They can say what they want. They ve got their own thing going on issuing bother you so much under evidence to suggest that the people who have genuine self, in particular bothered back a little meaningless attacks, negative feedback unnecessary for school class or even for a research study,
shouldn't matter at all. Drives people were narcissistic, crazy, writing, lash out they want to fight back it with genuine self esteem, are able to come blow. It often say who cares yeah? I think so. the great sort of era when our quiver on typing human behavior. So what can you tell us about moving from more if you Bristol pride and externals for validation in ourselves and the Associated problems at that causes to more authentic What can I do to be more authentically proud? If I find that I might be lacking in that area? I would think that the key is to think about who you are. What is most important to in terms of who you are and tried, and not think about, people, think you know it's really hard, because I want to say, walk enterprise, not at all about what other people think and cause. That's not true. You know the things that we come to feel authentically proud of ourselves are typically things that we ve learned from the cultivation growing up in whatever deciding grown up in these are things we should care about. These are things that we should have learned to live. We should care about, but it is,
time if you're someone who tends towards hubris, depriving you know that about yourself, I think it can be really useful. The kind of step back, shut out those voices and just for a moment, think who am I what most important the kind of person I wanna be, and what can I do to get there? I think the question people often ask as well what, if I'm not feeling cried my life I think, that's a really coming, not that I'm telling you bursting pride, but I'm just going about me every day, job. It's fine everything's going well, but I'm not feeling that sense of real accomplishment, sense of pride that I long to feel in the book. I told a story about how I felt his way back right. When I graduated college, I was working in a cafe which I really liked it. You know I had plenty of time to read out and do all the things I want to do, but I wasn't having that Sunday I don't really missing it, and so I think that's where the key is to think. Ok. Well, what kind of person do I want to be, and what do I need to do to get their right and it could be a simple? Was you know what I miss having art my life? I want to spend some time taking photography class
or I miss feeling, like I'm being accomplished with my body and might lead us, I'm going to go start running programme on a train for a marathon or half marathon can be. You know I need you feel like I'm helping my kid more, I'm gonna go coach. Her Socrates is positive, always knew that could be to the point of any change my career wrapped just careers. No, let me feel pride you I am. I need to find a way to have declared that amount, dreamed of having that really fits with the way that I see myself, there's a whole range of things to do it, but I think that the key- because this makes sense right having something in one area where we can sort of always strive to get to the next level, whether that something with art, whether that something in our career or both and it seems like. Yes, you probably need to be fulfilled in multiple areas, and I know what kind of reaching outside the topic at hand and probably reaching into some of our Jonathan field subjects where it talks about the buckets of health and relationships and your personal life, and I know for me things that have helped with this in rhetoric
I wasn't doing it cautiously in the beginning, at least not for pride purposes, were things like learning chinese. When I found that I was only working on my business the whole time I considered myself, this well travelled linguist that I haven't done anything like that just for ever and so I decided one mandarin and that's been kind of a cool source of pride that comes from my own achievement. that has nothing to do with the whims of the market or how our monthly sales report saw a download numbers or anything like that in ten, To be more within my control- and I think also when we see thing that were working on in our life. We can sort of make a mat. What kind of person do I want to be? Let me pick up a new hobby. Let me get back in shape. You start to look for the holes that maybe you once felt really proud of. physique, because you're working out every day in high school and playing hockey- and you haven't done that for a decade- you right not think I need to get back in shape- you might just be thinking I don't like my life right now for these vague reasons that are in Tional, instead of logical,
Suddenly you end up going to the german endorphins aside. You start to go. Oh I'm feeling like I'm. more comfortable in my own skin. Now, because I actually made this happen, do you see levels of self confidence and self Trust, an elephant pride translating from one area to another, say I get back in shape. Do you find in the subjects that you work with o now, I'm actually? feeling better and more empowered in my career, because I felt more empowered in this other area taken control, my health or learning something new? Do you see that translate me? I can't say emphatically that we have the direct cause of Lebanon. Talking about, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that people who disposition, I feel I can take pride, It will come from any domain, do a greater sense of confidence across domains right, that's what it is your prone to this kind of pride of you tend to feel it. You know to treat like way. It's gonna affect all the domains of your life, and I actually think it makes sense that if you get it in one way
You know one place in your life. It's gonna play outside, allowing it had better relationships of people, another domains of your life, doing better in your career. I love you commander- and I think that such a need example- where it's very much about the way that you want to see yourself- it fits with this identity that you have about yourself and you're, doing it because I think I saw him at the time you are like all I'm going to China. I need to know this, but it's really just this issue. I am, and this is gonna make me feel better about myself and then you get these real consequences were it does have that effect. I think that's fascinating and I think it's a great example of other stuff works and we often don't realize that those consequences are gonna happen anyway, the aid. Actually, there wasn't anything like that. You're right, it was just why German and I learned some Spanish. I learn some serbian, but Really a linguist everybody says the Chinese, as you know the hardest language. Can I do it, because if I and that remains untested I'll. Never really know what level I can attain in this particular field, so warning Mandarin is kind of like. Oh, I guess I can't
in the Olympics, Land Rover still so to speak. It's not just your back. my day. I was really good at this, and I was on my high school tracked him. It's kind of like. Can I get to the top? Can I touch the brass ring of of light which is so to speak and that's been really fun for me I'm on doing it at kind of an amateur level? Last but not least, though, we interviewed summoning Angela Dockworkers sure familiar with how would that not selling? It seems like there's an intersection of pride. grit somewhere along in your work. Can you about that, are my imagining that now you actually right and in fact in a book, I talk a lot about the second in the last chapter into this idea about group plays into it. So great you're listeners, prowling, oh great, is the sense that some people have that they want to put in the hard work for a goal that typically is kind of a very long term goal. It's not sort of just what today, when I get
done it's much more. Like here's, my long term girl, I want to be the kind of person and the people who really are the ones who are able to work hard day after day week after week, in a year after year, even when the work is tedious and boring, and I think that one of the most important parts of it she found that it's not the greek people, get excited about new ideas and do all the fun parts, it's that, even when the work is not fun, raiders always times when it's not fun. He I tell the story in the book of denies this ultra marathon, our british friends day and night, basically rugs
loves it it sooner. His dream come true: it's allowing him to be the kind of person who wants to be, but there are hiding, have ours were he's out there running in pain and agony, and it's not fun and grit is the thing that gets people through those moments that pushes them, even when it's not fun when it's boring and tedious to keep working- and I think I love her work- I think it's fascinating, but the only thing it doesnt tell us is what makes people have great. What motivates them to put a network, and that's rising pride comes in that, basically, the desire to feel authentic pride that drive to feel good about ourselves. That's what makes people greedy, and so I think it's made because I think it can be harnessed by anyone in some people are more naturally disposed to it, which is why she finds these individual differences. Were some people have a lot of great others? Don't, but once you know it is about offended pride, I think it can be harnessed for almost anyone Jessica. Thank you so much. Of course, the book will be linked up in the show notes. The book is take pride. That will be there. So don't you worry about that? Thank you so much for your time. This has been excellent.
They will. Thanks for having you know, it's not offend the talks. I appreciate it. I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before I get into that check out episode, one fifteen with Michael Scott, more here on the Jordan Harbinger show in Somalia trying to track down pirate gangs- and I love the kind of here what this felt like? We went with the big security team we paid the security team a lot of money, and there was this one portion of a clan and central Somalia that was supposed to protect us. So how did they get here? My burger ashram So after Mogadishu, I drove him to the airport, and then we saw him off. He got on the plane safely and then on the way back from the airport back into town towards a hotel, there was actually a truck waiting for us was a truck with a cannon. Welded in them he's a very common trucks are called technicals at first. We thought it was there to watch over as protect us or something, but actually it stopped our car and told them and from the flat been
came over my side of the car and there fired in the air and then open the door to me out of the car waiting for me, and they will probably waiting are hoping for both of us. I think a little bit discipline but there was only one journalist- maybe me they broke my gun this, isn't the time Add another car waiting, a bundle me into it and off we drove into the Bush for about three hours, some like that hard to keep track of time, but at some point we start they blindfolded me, and they took me a few steps over to a mattress. So there was a mattress waiting for me Nowhere there are other people. There are the guards and other hostages, and I sat down and for the next two years next month, for more on life in captivity under the thumb of somali pirates and how he made it out check out episode, one fifteen with Michael Scott, more
on the Jordan Harbinger, show fascinating stuff. Of course, I think we all know somebody with too much of the wrong kind of pride, and maybe that person is us or was us knowing how to type these concepts and tell apart and identify this behaviour on ourselves and, of course, in others, seems like a very useful skill that I think we can all put to use I wish I knew about it when I was twenty five, although that I would have been too proud to actually apply. The book is called take pride. Special thanks to Jessica Tracy for joining us links to everything will, of course be in the show notes, and please use our website links if you buy books from the guests. That stuff does add up and support the show worksheets for the episode or in the show
that's transcripts are also in the show notes. Are you to channel as Jordan, harbinger dot com, slice, Youtube and Jordan Harbinger dot com, slash clips? Of course, that's where you find highlights in cuts that don't make it anywhere else, I'm at Jordan, Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me I'm linked in I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six minutes. Networking course that courses free, dig the well before you get thirsty Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash course is where you can find it mostly guess, use your honor show, during the course contributing subscribing so come around and join us you'll, be in smart company where you belong. This shows created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen, Harbinger, Jason Sanderson, Robert Ferdy Milly, Ocampo, Ian bared, Josh, Ballard and Gabriel Ms Raw. He remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends. When funds
than useful or interesting. If you know somebody is interested in psychology or maybe needs a little hint hand about their pride share, this episode with, and hopefully you find something great in every episode of the show. Please share the show with those who care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-05.