« The Jordan Harbinger Show

560: Dan Carlin | Apocalyptic Moments in Hardcore History

2021-09-14 | 🔗

Dan Carlin (@hardcorehistory) is the host of the wildly popular Hardcore History and Common Sense podcasts, and author of The End Is Always Near: Apocalyptic Moments, from the Bronze Age Collapse to Nuclear Near Misses.

What We Discuss with Dan Carlin:
  • Do tough times make for tougher people? How do we define what "tough" means?
  • Will war ever become obsolete, or will we always need to be prepared to engage in military force on some level?
  • Why do the people who are best qualified to lead rarely get elected, and how does this hurt us all (even if "our" candidate wins)?
  • How denying the cultivation of skills, talent, and opportunity to the poorest members of the population underserves society as a whole.
  • Is a de-escalation of our current political polarization possible, or have we passed the point of no return?
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/560

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Today. What business needs most is creativity. So, let's create a I with integrity, not by us. security that henceforth threats in the wild cloud management that requires less management and new ways for business to do business, let's create at scale right now, together, let's prototype, let's tweak, let's test, let's adapt, let's create something that changes everything IBM, let's creaked learn more. I began dotcom live. My life has all of your favorite music and you can listen for free, whether you hit play on one of our hundreds of curated music stations or create your own custom artist. Radio station you'll find the music you love on life by live, visit, live Ex livestock arm or search live ex, live in the Alps door or Google black and listen for free now, coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show, there has never been a period in human history, were average people have had voices like they have now.
in one level of my brain. I've always thought that that would be a great thing to give every body a voice, I'm watching it's like when everybody has a voice, and I dont know what I think of it. I just know that we're easily exploitable and I think that that's a problem. So then, if your easily exploitable and turned into a position that sub, let's just say not even a truthful one right, you're living in a fantasy world, and then I give the power to talk to other people who also believe we're living in a fantasy world and together you can create a narrative that we live in a fantasy. Were I mean we live in it? times. We really do come to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger, show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have indeed conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts entrepreneurs spies cycle
even the occasional extreme athlete neuroscientist or drug traffickers. Each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinkers. So, if new to the show, or you want to tell your friends about the show it. Of course, they always appreciate that we ve got these episodes starter packs that we through together for yet these are collections of your favorite episodes organised by popular topic that I have new listeners, get a taste of everything that we do here on the show just visit, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash start to get started, or to help somebody else get started today, Dan Carlin, if Europe into the podcast many probably know DEN Carlin, is just a darling, pod cast who world are now, many people would use that to describe him, but I meant to do it. We started pod casting around the same time. Peace did his show hard core history around two thousand and six, and it is just floated isn't even the word, for I think it's just been hands down for a decade and change one of the most,
shows anywhere in the five guys. Universes episodes are ethic there, like four plus hours long all history told in a fascinating way, and you know it stuff like how the Romans conquered. There fire Alexander. The great Genghis, Khan, etc vertically, So to of it here, probably obsessed with it like everybody else, this is a wide, ranging conversation on the state of the world. Why history says we might implode and how that might happen as a civilization, of course, also some fun like, could our generation beat that of our grandparents in a war. The process of creating great content in audio format, authoritarianism and the rise of China, internal and great power conflict to the breakdown of empires and a whole more and, if you're one how I managed to book all these great others thinkers creators every single week, all about that network. Folks, some teaching You have to build your network for free over at Jordan and you're not come slash, coarse and by the way most of the guests on the shows they subscribe to the course come join us you'll be in smart, come
where you belong now cures Dan Carlos I noticed you barely do social media, instagram and stuff like that and everything Facebook related. So and Instagram Zone by Facebook there was one of those and I think they've been many, but one of those he don't leave Facebook days or whatever and I'll was one of the first ones. We just said you know screw this. I use twitter, you don't listen, there's a lot of things. I could do better, If the conversation starts with that, we get a good forty minutes, I could do on on the money I'm leaving on the table or the promotion I'm leaving on the table. I don't know you're right. I don't do much that an end. If we had more options that weren't Facebook related, I think I'd I'd problem. Do more of it. I don't I've. Never done is to grant at all, and I have two teenagers, so I should know better yeah. You know I got sucked into do this promote this. Do all this. You gotta have these clips. and ass? We, you know what I am not entirely convinced that somebody
gonna sit down, listen to and our long to our long or in your case, three four or five plus our long show is going to find it bites. Rolling through something on the toilet that has a twelve secular, whatever minute long time limit and a video is, I'm not can Those are the same people all the time. There's definitely overlap, but I don't know man specially. Would Tik Tok I've got two thousand followers their core. How many of them now go and consume your six hour, audio books, one out of ten thousand, I think, there's a critical mass thing I think, when you're really trying to stand out from a what's a very crowded field. Now I think you got to do everything you can, but I do think that at a certain point you don't have to push. It is hard because the audit he's out there pushing at on those same things for you that makes sense yeah. So I think there is it at once. You reach a critical mass. That doesn't mean you can't do better and that it's not important. I just think it's not as vital. I hope I'm right.
about a year. I mean look if you and I are worried about leaving money on the table. I think that's losing battle. Rikers I've we ve all seen the people that pick up every secretly spare sent that they can and it always affects the final product it's the show was sixteen ads in it. It's television, radio is what it is. Knowing you hire staff and you get a burn rate need investors, and I think it turns you in due human resource. manager when you need to be doing what you're doing, because I d you, but I'm too much of it. You know when my name is on it, I'm not going to let some guy managed it or some person management for me without my oversight, but I can hardly answer all the emails right now. So time is that coming out of you know, so I you leave it on the table figuring that recouping those costs is actually not worth it it comes at a time with your kids. Are the show you? How are the shell yeah, and I didn't finish- reading for my guest tomorrow- and I you know, I didn't pick up my kid from school and go to a soccer game, but man I'd Cyril Inbox, my tweets, I got all my instagram dm handled from total strangers that wanted to sell me promotion, service
this is also a marathon not a sprint, and if you're gonna be doing it for a long period of time you gotta somehow integrated into into a pace you can handle. I do think when you're starting up and gives getting going, you have to act like a start of company and you know sleep over nights in seven days a week, but after a while, you gotta figure out how to live with this long term, and that requires, like you, said some time with your kids some days. off some creative time are. You know me doing this in two thousand and five, so I figure were in the marathon stage. Envelope were in the marathon staged by now. I want to switch topics here to something that these, Whole audience can really dive into, which is no one thinks there. Civilization will end right we doubt and it doesnt matter where in the world you right now, even if you live in North Korea, you don't think you're civilization here particular nations gonna end the faroes didn't think they're civilization. Would end- and that's an interesting thing to think about
when we're looking at everything, that's wrong, because there is, on the one hand, to the extreme there's people who are like tomorrow's doomsday and the sun's going to melt everyone and its Armageddon there is the rest of us which are like well we'll get through this, but history says the hold on not necessarily rent. I kind of look at it this way and I feel like it's a fork in the road question and the other path that we go down. Fascinating, and the fork in the road is either everything's gonna happen. The way it always has, which is what you just talked about- or it's not an either one of those outcomes is fascinated me, I'm he could we be the first in a more global civilization. I could be the first civilisation that doesn't have to go through that. That's fascinating, Could we follow in the footsteps of all the ones that came before and and it fizzled out, yeah, that's fascinating so either way I funds the outcomes, possibilities really intriguing. Scary. Yeah, he's scared
yeah. You mention in your work that there's two ways to learn, or I've heard you say, there's two ways to learn: right, one put your hand on a hot stove or two. You read books and learn from people who have done that and find out how it worked out for them, and that is that why you ve written this latest work here about us blowing ourselves up or or literate, your figuratively war. I mean to be more honest about it. I could have done this is a pod cast. I was approached to do a book and when we sat down and said you know they were like what what do you want to talk about you start sort of examining. I actually went back and looked at the shows that we done in the past and tried to find if there were any connecting threads, and you know it's almost looking at one of those inkblot tested the psychologist, shows you you find out a lot about yourself. I do know about you, but I don't go back and listen to the old shows on a pay any attention to them there in there the mere but when I had to lay them out on the living room floor, look at them all a sort of a group. I googled long, I'm inordinately interested in fall of civilizations, and these guys. So I think it was a logical thing to use as a book subject because I'd exported in depth and am obviously pretty interested in it, and I think there
valuable things that if we examine the concept that we as a society are certainly individuals in the society. I think we can glean some interesting stuff from it there. There are no answers it simply because who doubts right, but it's a book of questions and know that the most important questions may be. As a group ask you, dont, go back and listen to any shows from ten years ago, or anything like that, just to see what they were like. I don't listen to any from any, I mean, I know why, because I would want to redo all of them. Yeah I hear you this. I pull my hair out over this mistake or that thing I don't like her met effect when people say what's your favorite show, I always go the one I'm doing next, because that's absolute truth. The book starts off pretty harsh dives. It does right and important to everything else we do. I was thinking I was thinking about that really late. Ediths sets it aside its dies right into parenting topics and some crazy, abusive previous societies. The children were just you'd instead yes right. If you are like in Anglo Saxon, you get what was it? You train the kids for the military,
your inspired or over the Anglo Saxons urge beating kids so that they would remember specific trial evidence. This is just like that at all. That's an old, and you know I'm not sure, other societies into that tune that it's not a big thing. It's like an abuse thing Boca. They were trying to figure way to make something that they wanted. You to remember memorable where you can think of all kinds of ways to make it memorable right give you some fantastic gift that you never forget whatever might be, but in some of these cases and then that's a good way to put it as a historic mistake, while you were generally, but in some of these case is one of the ways they did. It was give him a good beating, because you'd remember that in that way they sort of in their minds solidified this event, this memory that you have to have for the future with something you wouldn't forget. I suppose that since a kind of reminds me of the count of Monte Cristo. You ever see that movie, where every day on the anniversary of them getting into this horrible prison, he the warden whips. You are some like that basis. Not only if it's the same kind of thing s getting soft can wipe us out, though right you give you the example of Sparta. I think verses
Persia, it's been a while, since I've gone over that particular piece of of content, but the Spartans were made really preoccupied with hey if there's any sort, a weak link in the chain it's over for us. I think a good way to put it is, I think, first of all, we talk about how we are to term toughness is because what is toughness even mean, and it almost becomes like with the Supreme Court had based we set about pornography, whereas we are, they can define it, but they know when they see it. But the thing is, I think, toughness matches the times right. You don't you dont need spartan levelled toughness today. You might argue that you would be better. taking whatever time and effort she needed to cultivate that to cultivate something that we do need in this society. Now I brought those subjects to the fore. The book, though, because I was trying to sort of establish how we might respond
to some of the challenges that we're going to talk about later in the book, because, obviously, if you're living through either a civilization collapse or near civilization, collapse, that's going to change you and I would assume it's going to change the way you raise your kids in the kind of kids you have, and I think we compared it to the difference between raising your kid in Eunice, a Germany or Britain, the second World WAR verses, raising them installing grad after the battle of stolen credit. For that I mean you need different sort of survival skills in those sorts of situations and as it that's kind of what we were talking, but try to figure out do tough times make tougher people. What is toughness? When do you need it can society? If you decide your, not tough enough. Can society do anything about that I was examining the basic issue because you kind of read about it, especially before the pre modern era, all the time in the sources, but nobody ever take the time to define it or say what it means or tell you how you could determine that this is more or less toughened something else. So we fight around with that issue for a while
I find it interesting. It almost seems like I am won't cares about your opinion here. It almost seems like physically. And mental toughness is coming back more than it was in the nineties, and that could just be maybe an older, and I notice it morbid now. It seems like young guys, and I mean no 2030s and have they haven't obsession with our gotta be awesome, jujitsu and I want to with a bow and arrow and hunt more, and it's like this is almost like a cycle that my dad and his we're doing in the sixties and then in the seventies, eighties, and even nineties outer remember anybody trying to be that tough, at least not where I grew up. I just didn't really matter was about working hard in getting good grades, but I am also a nerd, so there's that yeah, but I'm gonna, take it down the same road. Is that tough? Does that meet a definition of tough look? I mean there is also the difference between physically tough mentally tough. Another word you might use for some of this is resilient to her and- and I think you know simply having I mean you know- we have people out- there listings our voice right now. That may be have a small child there taking care of the elderly too.
Both parent they're, trying to work a job or to me, that's tough, you don't have to have a bow and arrow. That's a different kind of resiliency that that builds up. So I think it's an amorphous, not quantifiable issue, but something I mean if I put two people in front of you and show you their whole lives. I bet you could say well by my standards. Personnel is tougher than person being, but again, I think what you need to be tough changes. I dont think you need to have a bow and arrow to data, be tough So would you call that, like the equivalent of having an elective in college right to hit, you don't have to have a bow and arrow to be tough in modern times, but it probably doesn't hurt yeah. I think what I meant was more along the lines of we see I see or I'm casually observing. Almost a resurgence in overt symbols of things that are considered physically are physically tough, it very much So all about like down, there's more of dominance. Vibe, I think they're making argued refusing to much social media That is also very possible that I'm just so you know,
I would say that is already being effect. What do I know? I know. I actually think, though, that your story, something that could have a lot of legs in terms of being interesting, an intriguing, I'm not sure it's toughness, this damage and, for example, the dominance thing. That's an interesting word of exit anything to do with toughness, but I think it's interesting, and why would we in I'm thinking back to the nineteen sixties, where a lot of the complaints from the old timers back then was that society
was becoming softened. The words that they used to, like you were a feminist and men and women were becoming androgynous that all these things and I think these things go in cycles. The right, I think, the same thing with it in a body types that are attractive. You know. Sometimes you want really skinny wavy people. Sometimes you want more beefy and muscular people. I think some of this might just be cynical. I am intrigued by the impact and you just brought up social media. I am intrigued by how things like social media and the fact that were also much more in touch with each other and influencing each other on a daily basis. That, to me is a wild card, because I look at the past always and I try to put everything into some sort of relation to everything else. but that's different, I mean I think you could say before about nineteen hundred the world was pretty, I mean the fastest speed you could. Travel on land was the speed of a horse. Will you say a railroad, but I mean a somebody said once that you could better understand. Jesus is time up to
Nineteen hundred they were using that as reference, then, after because life is so different for us now and the variable I keep looking at the social media, slash internet one, because That is such a wild card, and we are in such the early stages of this still do not have any historical analogy than I can look out to try to make sense of it. Yet I feel like we're in a lot but of generational blip right now before we get into whatever. The next thing is, which is very possibly our grandkids just listing primarily in a virtual space, not denounce it. Look at their funding. go to work where, in the modern equivalent of inaccuracies headset their interacting with people in a virtual space, your house can be a complete frickin dump, because who cares it's just like this physical space that keeps the rain off of your whatever regulate step. It you're right. It's just fascinating s, non issue and then people we like weight so used to have this little ass shitty terminal. Were you Dan Carlin are like seeing a tutor your image of one another and you're talking synchronously. What a weird thing here,
typing emails like these written letters back and forth the scheduled time, it just seems ridiculous, the equivalent of I'm giving a letter to the pony, express guy to have him run at ten miles away and people just go how quaint and inefficient and silly and something that would never get used. But this is this time that we're in right now more seems like the shortest version of this right that just a very nascent internet and nascent remote work. People are blown that were able to do work from home, and it's like will, of course, were able to do from going to work in a hive bubble office building. That's what's weird, I don't think that's theoretical! My teenage kids already think. I'm a dinosaur forget typing email. Two people in my younger one goes weren't. You just snapping um, you know I mean I and gas, here's what s interesting to me about that, though, because for so long and it's an arbitrary distinction, how long does a generation last right? So a lot of people? Officially, I guess generation ex person, but if you look at the people that are generation ex people,
They travel all the way and like the eighties or the baby boomers is just not a baby boomers, just barely, but but what I always look at and go. How could I possibly be a baby boomers if you're born in nineteen? Forty six? Are you telling me this summer morning, nineteen sixty Five has anything in connection with a book, but their long generations. When the point of the story is, I got two kids who are three years apart and the technology is changing so quickly and it has such an impact on their generation that I see generational differences between my two kids, who are only three years apart, so it might be somewhat connected to the pace of change and the pace of changes. Up yeah? That's a good point. It's almost like for me being born in nineteen eighty. If I'm talk as somebody who born in nineteen nineteen, seventy five one thousand eighty six it's kind of the same, but it If I'm talking to somebody who was born in ninety. Ninety, ok, it's their substantial similarity, but you are right when you look at kids, it's like three years apart five years apart, they ve never heard
a people that they follow on you too, they ve never heard of the people that they or their dont use Youtube, because there are twenty five and not toilet fifteen or twenty. It's a completely different thing in itself even the media are different right. You did say Otis, watch that tv show when you were young says ST oh. No, we had teletype is now it's like television I dont ever watched television, because I have an ipad that I have drafted to my face right, if your six or seven years old now, depending on your parents, if you look twenty up there's a twenty years that that they have been of these are stupid things, but they classified the baby boomers. I think nineteen, forty five nineteen sixty or that's! Nineteen years, can you imagine a generation lasting nineteen years now and having anybody even pretend that they had anything, but I dont think people in nineteen sixty four had much in common with people born nineteen, forty five, but you couldn't even pretend that today in and not get laughed out of your your sociology club for whatever you, I think I think you're, absolutely right it just doesn't. The pace of changes is accelerating so quickly. It makes me wonder what the limit of
Human adoption is right, kids are doing fine, then do tech, theoretically random, and I guess we need to catch up with things like mental open social media, but worse still, able to use these things and adapt quickly. them and have our younger generation adapt quickly to them. I guess it seems like it's gotta be a limit to that. But maybe the limit of its adaptation is faster than the limited. The speed of creation, its action, excel a trend, that's been going on for a while, which is how long your knowledge is applicable, so I mean I'm factually fascinated by this now I've, I'm toying with the doing a show on it at some point, but for a very long time in human history. If you learned something that skill was good for your entire life right and somebody taught you had a makes thing in the middle ages, that was probably a scale that, when you're sixty five years old, which would have been a decently old person in those days that still makes you valuable, because that skill is still applicable these days faster than
ever weak it sort of outmoded. Where already I mean you know, I'm as it had apparently teenage girls, I on the internet when the internet first became something regular people started using, and I have my kid show me things now: another that just roll their eyes at me and I'm all the outmoded in their minds so where, once upon a time, one's life experience was probably good, in almost every area for their entire life, as the probably the nineteenth century bits the twentieth century world around all of sudden, the old people started becoming really outmoded, and I think that as the technology changes even more quickly that it happened at younger and younger age? Is can you imagine, being twenty eight and all having fourteen year olds? Correcting showing you the latest stuff and tried to help you. You know navigate your way through something that you just. Why can't we do at the we did it when I was fourteen with you. No regular apps as a
virtual reality ones. You know. So I guess to me that's a fascinating thing about how long your experience is viable, it sort of may me a little bit nervous. You know my parents are our here visiting right now, and this is something like, while you know you're doing so well and you're, only forty. Why and you have all these years left work, and I corrected my dead and my mom. Both who said something similar is another. I've probably got lake more years where I'm relevant and I say, is falling in this nice window where a lot of people like getting consume it, and then I've got a few years after that, maybe a lot where a varying immoral. narrow portion of my audience is still like. I like the way this guy does audio only podcast or whatever it is, and then it just sort of fall off, whereas somebody like Larry King, for example, All the way up until the end is just relevant on television doing radio everything is there and now that the pace of change is so rapid and wonder how quickly, I'm going to lose relevance to the
Jordi of the world and thankfully I can make a living worrying about that in just having relevance to like a fractional percentage of people, but it seems to be happening very quickly. if you don't jump from one medium to another and you're, not willing to do that in its guys, like you and I agree long form, audio people who want Do videos of this all think? Well, I don't want to do a hundred times the work and hate every second of it. That's one reason you know what's funny, though, is If you look at it the right way, I would suggest that Larry King in his later years was not doing programmes for fifteen year old. That's true, I think the audience aged with him, and I think that if you continue to want to- and you continue to operate at a high level- I u dont get boring to the people that already like you, you all great. You all grew up together. You know anyone who we, my parents were watching people on television. When I was a kid and I would just go, why are you watch in the sky? And this he's great? What are you talking about? But that's how those,
go so I mean I think, for me, you know a guy who wrote a book called. The end is always near I'm looking like health and things like that. That can throw you off your game. I figure. If you have the energy you mentally alert and those kind of things that I think you can pivot, I mean look. We all know that there are people who are much more flash in the pan in terms of what they have to offer talent wise may be the reason there well known as cause they their physically beautiful right here, twenty two year old there very attractive. Ok, that's something you can build for the very long term. Cuz Sunday, you're gonna be sixty. But if, however, your appealing to someone in a more mental sense something it has longer? Legs is maybe a deeper sort of an attraction and in an and pay off I think audience can age with you now you may be a guy doing an internet show for sixty year olds when you're. Sixty, that's fine, but look sixty year olds have a lot more money to donate to upon castle. It all worked out in certain ways. I suppose there ya and going back to what you mentioned about the generational thing. Usually hey questions.
that's what you're one of the only people who, I think an answer this do you think we could beats grandparents or our parents in a war right not like the state that there are now that we are now we're all the same age, say: military capabilities and technology. Do you think from like a sort of a mental toughness standpoint or an attitude standpoint? We could do that or do you think that we that's my question right. I did in a I do the podcasting. We started off one of the chapters that you reference, though that may be Wi Fi I'm so smart for thinking of risk, as I wrote it nor its thirty? I love the concept because it forces you to think what that means and it's a double edged sword, because if you see something like no, we would never have the guts to drop in atomic bomb, I'm on civilians. Well, I mean. Is it a virtue to be a person who could do the more cold hearted? Certainly gonna win you a war over people that wouldn't, but I think there is a case to be made
There is advantageous, and this was the toughest question to disadvantages on both sides of it, because the opposite of toughness isn't necessarily weakness. It might be empathy. it might be a sense of understanding. I mean there's ways to look at this as let's call it an emotional, zero sum game and if you're not taking up space with toughness, what are you making space for right, and so I think the idea of being your grandparents and wars inch. Because if you say no, they would kick our reruns because they be more brutal. They do what it it took. Okay, but is there a downside to being Wait a we have advantages because we're not that way that allow us to do things they couldn't do so. I used the war example causes so blatantly something that requires this idea of penal going to the nth agreed to win
but there's a lot of other things in our society. That dont require that a row or require different sort of skills. For us to get to the nth degree, and so in answer to your question, I dont think we could beat our grandparents in a war with the same kind of material. I would hope that being a generation that feels the need me, he debt to have less existential wars. Maybe we could avoid war with the emperor who make peace with our grandparents yeah. That's a comforting thought kind of although it does get me a little bit worried about what other in other other culture, that are in a different place on whatever time, liner spectrum that we might find ourselves. This is a bit of a deep on buddy, think, violence or military force will always exist. I do think in some so start with force. I was once contemplate the whole question of force and whether or not you could get by with no force, there was a great star Trek episode in the original series, where some advance group of people had decided that there,
gonna be no violence for any reason, and that anybody who started to be violent, they would just be cut off at the past, and it was interesting to try to imagine all of the things in society that keep society running that require force right. So when you get to military affairs, that's a whole different level of force. I do think that there is going to be some level of fighting all the time. Cause. I think some of the low levels of fighting are akin to whatever the next level above policing is right. But when we talk about like full scale things I dont know, I tend to think: there's gonna, be more full scale thing and then, when we see what that means, that'll be the last one, because I think the scary nests of atomic and now nuclear thermonuclear weapons. I think that's worn off a little bit, so maybe You know humankind often need sort of a refresher course on how nasty some of this stuff is. But I dont think if we have a war where its full all out war between first rate powers- idle.
it will have another one afterdeck, as I think the great grandchildren will still be picking up the pieces, and I think the lesson will last a lot longer in the scars will be a lot deeper. I think that you still might need low level stuff if only to protect civilian, sometimes mean sometimes you have to go into it is to stop a genocide. It's a tough thing, because I remember when the whole libyan things going on and we were debating when I had a current events podcast about the rightness, wrongness or moral high ground in that situation, and I think the question of having an agency. You know that I think the two war showed us that there is a need for some one who can step in and do something like in the situation where you can have massacres right, but whose job that is, I think it got caught up in the same old power politics that we have had for thousands of years, without really recognising that the day of those power politics rules being applicable were over, but I dont think we ve act.
Really I mean you are giving league of nations after the first World WAR, we have a United Nations and multiple military alliances like NATO after the Second World WAR, but those things heaven get in the way that that the really high minded people after the world wars had hoped they would. They devolved much more into tools for regular old stander power, politics things, but the need that was identified in the first place that the created the incentive in the impetus to create them The agency's those are going away, so I think, eventually, happening it'll just be something that either some major power has to step in and do it themselves, which I think is the worst possible way to do it or somebody's gonna recreate some sort of you. No global police force entity that can operate in relations where it's not a major war. It's not as a third World war, but it's something where somebody's gotta guns on one side to prevent some terrible tragedy occurring somewhere.
Your listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Dan Carlin, we'll be right back. Thank you. So much for listening to and supporting this show it's your support of advertisers that gives the lights on around here. Of course, I appreciate anything could do feel of overseas. I get it but to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you ve heard. You can check it out for yourself, we put em all in one place, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash deals, has all the codes and links it. You need consider supporting those who support us and don't forget. We ve got worksheets for many of the episodes you here on the show. If you want to, the drills and exercises talked about during the show in one easy place. That link is in the show notes at Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash podcast, now back to Dance Carlin. What do you think of the push towards authoritarianism in many? This is because that's in many ways is one of the reasons we dont intervene in a lot of places is because there are countries that say you know what Vito this or I'm not going to allow this, because we should let
everybody handle their own internal affairs, which an authoritarian speak means. I don't want them to say when we do it DORA people, so I'm not going to say it when they do it to their people and they stand in the way of a lot of us. That's a deed question in their several different avenues. Regan explore the first one is, I think authoritarianism is in one sense or another. The default position I think in the post. Second world war. You know the triumph of democracy, all these sorts of things that people thought we were entering into a new age. I think those are the outliers, so I think the default position is much more to have a society words very rigidly structured hierarchy, pyramid shaped with one person at the top of the apex or some oligarchy at the top in controlling things, and I think you can see that in places like Russia right now, China right now. Certainly at the same time, though, I am not sure any country, regardless of governmental type, is all that open to having people from outside criticise their actions. And what not I mean
during the civil rights era in this country? The late fifties lot of nineteen sixties. Communist Soviet Union was slamming the United States, for here you know that the second rate status of african Americans and all this kind of stuff, so in a very weird sense that actually falls into the power politics stuff. It becomes political propaganda to use against Europeans, and I think all the me countries. Do it there's a lot more similarity than we like to admit between government types? Definitely, the authority. regions are much more open about it, it's lot less disguised. Ours is much more of a velvet. You know gauntlet kind of thing, and certainly you know sometimes it has to back off in ways that Putin does never have to back off, but think the authoritarian are the way it normally is worthy outlier, and I think, even though we the outlier. We react in similar ways, sometimes Two and we do a lot of the same things: the same spying, the same propaganda that I mean, I'm absolute,
sure the Russians are on message boards, pretending to be Americans trying to pull the United States apart, but I mean: are we gonna? Be so naive as to think we don't do things like that, and so I mean I'm a little bit cynical when it comes to that. I dont think any nation state is full going down on the job of pushing in all those same areas. I just think I just think the authoritarian are a lot more fine, not disguising right. We have to be careful how we do it. I agree then you're earlier point that doesn't bode so Alfred their national police force that says: hey we shouldn't do, we should committing genocide. Rightly the! U S? Will pay lip service to that? The west will Sir said I, but what how many years did it take us to get into Bosnia and then did we ever do any about Rwanda. Or do we just wait until everybody was dead on one side, I mean it really when nobody was in a rush fallen over themselves to get to Yugoslavia or Rwanda, different situations certainly and the proper
this is what I meant when I said earlier that eventually you're gonna have to come up with some agency. That really does the job, but when you decide that there's gonna be a United Nations and you're gonna have multiple countries on the permanent you and Security Council, and each one of those countries is going to. The veto will your basically saying in the design of the organization that it's not really gonna, be this, already rule you know of fair Emmy. All those countries who have a veto on the Security Council are going to use their veto for their own national interests, and it would be weird if they didn't, but I think in a place like Bosnia is a perfect example. I mean that was an area that the former Soviet Union, I think it was transitioning too russian federation. At that time, that's in their backyard as far as their concern, and they have historic ties to one group of people that was in that conflict. The serbian out, and so it was natural for them to push back in ways where the rest of the so called civilised power
pushing in the other direction. After a while, at least to them. It almost seems like its standard. Machiavellian politics being sort of rose coloured glass is through the lens of the bosnian crisis, the same sort of jockeying for position in Eastern Europe that you saw happen after that too, with the expansion of NATO and a bunch of places which looks like progress and democracy moving forward to us, it looks like being surrounded to the russian we are, of course, how does is usually end up for authoritarian society is right because our art systems built around one person just more fragile. I dont think. Well, I think what we could argue whether or not these built around one one further, and I get a small group of people, a smaller group of people's private, a better way to raise that there are people who would say that the United States itself as a sort of an oligarchy a large group of people. I don't necessarily not necessarily arguing against that either I mean I'm not a pair of conspiracy theories. Do anything about it. If you look at who really has the power and society? I think in Russia when prudent,
goes away. I do think it's going to be a time when the deck might get reshuffled and all kinds of things might happen in China. I think it's a different situation. I think they can have a well oiled leadership machine there. When the current leader goes away, they will operate as a kind of a permanent oligarchy there to put forward another candidate, and they ve done this now bunch of times, whereas really since Putin made all these changes to Russia. We haven't had another person who wasn't a puppet of Putin's, so little a whole new experiment. When he goes away to see how functions without him, I think you're right. I know that Jinping wants to be chairman for life that may be of little. They change on the term limits, but we're right with Putin. It's more like here is in entire remakes of the constitution, as with siege in paying it was more like all right, I'm staying, but then the chinese kind of no The communist party knows we ve gotta, make the smooth we ve gotta be business. First, we ve gotta. The people in power who have power to keep things from sort of escalate
or becoming chaotic, whereas you right away in Russia, there might be a few camps fighting for controlling and China. They done it before. I mean that's what they ve done it before right, so Putin. We don't know what happens China. It probably happens just like it happened last time, exactly where you stand societal and empire breakdown throughout history, and now you ve done it with twenty twenty say. But I'm wondering what vulnerabilities you might see in our modern society in the United States would say if we have narrowed down that you think other people either don't see generally or that we're just not paying enough attention to that might lead to the downfall of either United its or western civilization, as we know it. If you want to zoom out a little war, here's the thing is you get closer to that moment things that people saw your noster, domicile thirty years ago, warning about it becomes more obvious, is like me, when you're getting closer to an iceberg. More more people can see. I think, there's there's a bunch of challenges right in front of us that are
clear to anyone paying attention. You don't have to be have some specialised knowledge political science running like that to see. I also think there some things that have been threatening us for a long time that we become complacent about forgotten about. So in terms of of what threatens us that everyone sees. I mentioned earlier these variables that we ve never had to deal with before the pace of change and some of the changes that we ve seen. Social me is a perfect example. You know so many of the things that we look forward to as these giant labour, raiders and and levellers. You know I used to do capital pitches to investors about what we called amateur content before. There was a youtube where there were any those for there was an Itunes for there was podcast and what we are trying to tell them was it's gonna be great. You can have any gatekeepers everyone's gonna be broadcast their opinions on these. It looked like a relentlessly positive future, but they'll never worked and well, but it's not that they did say that. But if you had told me back then if I could go visit myself back in those days,
One thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and tell myself will listen. It maybe isn't as relentlessly positive as you're suggesting it might be cuz. I wasn't looking at the downside if you'd said to me everybody's going to have a voice, I would have said fantastic, but who would have known that? This is how we might use our voices. so I would suggest that that's one example that to me is the iceberg. Everyone sees what this is doing to us and the destabilization its causing lack of knowledge about where this goes from. Here, everybody gets that what we ve forgotten about, I think, is the nuclear thing. Had I've got a bunch of shows on this and talked about extensively when we did and on the development and early history of nuclear weapons? I had a theme running through the show in the theme was, if somebody's pointing a gun to your head, and they do it long enough. Do you forget its there and if you were born with the gun, pointed at your head? you even notice it, because we ve had this gun pointed at our head. The entire time I've been alive. It's part of our existence. Now
When I was a teenager early nation eighties. They came out with a couple of made for tv movies. One was called the day after and its use the modern film techniques. Canadian to show you what a nuclear war might be like, it was so upsetting for people to see that in a form that got through right. You could talk to them all day, long about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but show them what a thermonuclear weapon would do. Ronald Reagan himself was so heavily impacted by that movie is considered to be one of the reasons he pushed for a meeting with Gorbachev. to deal with a nuclear weapons issue may have influenced the star wars: development idea, because, simply being reminded of this sort of death, Please that hangs over our head is enough to sort of recalibrate our senses, but we ve forgotten that the most dangerous thing in the world, the most dangerous human caused and controlled thing in the world, but in the middle of a pen,
you might have to make a distinction layer that yet put an asterisk next to its nuclear weapons, and we are way to blight on me. I think we just like I had said earlier. Longer you get away from one of those traumatic civilization. Learning moments. Teachable moments, the less we remember it. It took that move. The day after to remind people, you know what this might be like. We haven't had even a day after I think when you make a movie like this now it looks like a horror movie. Just like a thriller. Colonel one takes the lessons to heart that, no, you don't understand these weapons are all still out there and if you look at how the first World WAR, for example, wrapped up it's a wonderful example of how quickly things could get out of control and progress, direction that will make your head spinning you'll go twenty days into it. You'll go! Oh, my god. Can you We were really facing a nuclear war twenty days ago. We won't even thinking about this. It can sneak up on you quickly. I'm surprised a movie didn't given how many pandemic movies we ve had never one went well
I think it is early days right. I mean, I think, and I also think there's a when you get the first day after it makes a big impact if you get three nuclear war movies. After that, that effect is lessened every movie sending the pandemic? Think so I think it's a little bit like you get shocked with the first one and it becomes plaza and any light entertainment by the third or fourth I've heard. You say I trust people individually but less so when we get into groups. That makes a lot. sense, but I'm wondering why that is from your perspective, because we devolved to the mean we become a herd if you take the best human beings out there and that changes depending on the subject you may be the best human being in category a and not the best human, be because we all have different skills, the strengths and weaknesses. I think, if we pick, for example, leadership from the most qualify
and that's not always the people we think are most qualified depends on your criterion. But I think, if you were to pick the best leaders amongst the human race, I think we ve got the potential to work our way out of any problem right, but I think that we don't pick the best people from the human race and I think that when this is a crazy thing for me, because one of the things we have to talk about on our political current events Show- and this also gets the social media was the idea of democracy about having the people involved in things in and and I'm not as confident any more that I trust my fellow man now. My problem is, I, don't trust, pudding else in charge of my fellow man, so I don't have an alternative, but this is what you are talking about it by getting devolving to the mean, look at how we are,
look at how we are on anything vaccinations, pick any subject. You want to right now and you looking you just go holy cow. Some people really think that way, and that's what I mean about devolve into the mean at that point. I dont think they're really special people and when I say that that's every category, their people that are special singing on stage in Broadway, we all are gifted in different ways, but I dont think we're having the really gifted people unless it's gifted and fund raising gifted demagoguery, gifted pandering to specific groups and extremists, I dont the people that are the ones that can help us out of this mess. The word I'm looking for is not there, because there are no better people overall, but there are people who would be better leaders and I don't think, a person who The qualities we want in a better leader could get elected today, right em in the first thing, you're gonna want someone would speak the truth to you. Ok, right. There you're gone here right here, disqualified me and my stepfather said a years ago says: if you wanna see why we don't get better people running things. He goes divide a piece
or in half and list the pros of running for on one side and the comments on the other side. He goes anybody with the kind of judgment that you would want. That situation are gonna, look at that and go up there's a thousand times to problems right at one of the crows. It's an ego trip. So if that's the oh, that wins out over all the columns, you don't want that person anyway, so I mean I just feel like to get back to your point. I believe humanity has incredible capabilities across the board. I dont think that the people who we would see. I don't necessarily should the Great Broadway stars or even get not broken. My point is that I think, is an across the board a problem here, he has we're we're not getting our best people in the best positions, and I think we all suffer because of that and I think will be devolved to the group. You can see what happens the loudest people get the attention the most we very panicky were very brave individually and a lot of cases, but we get very panicking. Groups give are owned, a whore a horse once they are the most panicky darn animals you ever saw in your life. I got thrown from one of them because they
their shadow in a puddle on the ground right. Ok! Well, that's how people get you fool. You scare horse and heard the whole herd moves in another direction. Quickly didn't even know why they're scared, but one oars, got scared. Everybody followed, I feel like that's where we get as a group, we turn into a herd and yet, if you were to single out the individual horses in this case, the individual humans, we have a ton of gifted people across the board in so many different ways with so many different qualities that they're just so Bennett shop, but we don't have a meritocracy. We don't have any of the things that would allow. I think we actually is a society produce everything we need, but the people that are the production that can get us out of me. indifferent masses dont end up where we need them in this almost sounds like some totalitarian societies, you on things, does it like let me the great leader put all the proper people into the proper places and we want you to be greater than the sum of its parts. You don't you
hope and as a free guy, I always hoped that it works out that way that people have an inclination. You have a skill set. You have talents, you start to maximize those talents. The people that higher you will give you opportunities, reinforced that and go down the road. You end up in the place where you're not just the most beneficial to yourself but asked of us that's a pipe dream, but clearly it's a pint jim, but in my head, when I say what we're missing out on its the ability to be able to take advantage of all the talent that's out there in our society for those of you who don't know with a totalitarian reference was, for example, North Korea, they will say: oh this first greater love playing with cars and there are technical? They can fix things. So then they there are technical school may not be that young, but I wondered when I was there when to North Korea a few times on a tour in running a business that dealt with them, and I asked how do you find committee it's because our comedians make fun of politicians
as on, and they don't do that their surprise. Surprise not even a little bit and they say: oh, the teachers find funny kids from the class, and then they put them in the comedy school, and I said, oh so, like in high school, no, no, no, when they're young. So basically, if you have any sort of outlier personality at all, you get taken out of your class and you get into a comedy school or other type of theatre school in North Kivu and they just develop EU in that way, and they do the same thing for technical occupation and other things like that is one of the Olympics are going on right now, so want to point out. The Soviet Union would find out there in the first couple a grades and say wow you You're really flexible, wouldn't turn you into a gymnast, so those societies were. The idea was that they were going to find the talent in their societies and put them in positions where that talent could help. That's absolutely from an american standpoint from my standpoint is a freedom guy, that's a worst case scenario.
And yet I can see the beneficial side of it theoretically right, I just wish we ended up there our own way. I would love to have someone smarter than myself to some sort of study and figure out, if that's even possible, and if it is possible. What have we created that an impediment to that? I certainly think that we have a hard time, taking advantage of naturally gifted people who are born into poverty. Right. Definitely, I mean like if you are in a position where you can send your child to a ballet class when I got girl since ballet classes, something she Senator ballet class and the first thing you do is you turn around and you go so what're? You kids, who would be great ballerinas but whose power we are struggling to put food on the table. They can afford a ballet class. What happens to those kids, and so I mean that's another example about where we may be leaving a lot of not just the talented people but the gifted people who could help us out of some of these, was, we may believe it a lot it out on the table on new under utilised in our system. I wouldn't it any other way in a freedom sense, but I think we should understand that unites us.
Believes and merit and talent we're, leaving the talent under utilised. I absolutely agree It is a shame, but of course the answer is not put everyone in a category and kindergarten offers great and then take them away from their family had burned out here you get burned out exactly. Do you believe that civilizations in society? Naturally, themselves apart or polarize automatically? Somehow? Is that something that the you ve noticed in your research? I think a different society to society depends on what's holding them together in the first place, so I think ours does, but there is a great book. I forgot what it said. Look american nation,
something I get where the author tries to show you why that is in the United States in his basic intention. Is that if you look at the United States before it was the United States about eleven different countries and they all have sort of different temperaments and personalities and and attitudes on what the United States should be and that when there is an something actively pulling us together, that that's a natural divide or because the people are different, and I think you can look at the United States now and point to regions ago, while these are vastly different places, with different values and different views, and so what's holding it what's holding the deep South the West Coast or to New York serious, they move. If you ask people in those places, would we be better off without those other guys, I'm not sure what the results would be, but I don't feel like there's a lot of people going in the south. Oh, yes, we really need San Francisco or people is ever says, you're going. We really need to be more like Mississippi, so I think in the United States. I think that is a tendency. I think there are other countries there are held together by different sorts.
bonds and that they may be more immune to that kind of feeling. In other words, if our entire country was a or like San Francisco, or more like Mississippi, will then is it pulling itself together all the time apart all the time I don't know, but I do think in our country specifically, I do think the tendency is to pull apart and then there are things that happen that occasionally throw back together and remind us of a sort of our common interest. If you well, I don't want to insult is every bit as somebody who lived in San Francisco, I wouldn't want either of those places. You know what that's a great that's a great point is that I, like the two most different places I could think of right, but that guy was talking about with eleven or something different nations. I mean right. We have partly. This is a big country problem. Right I mean China has great differences. You go to the West of China is a very differ Place and they have very different issues with people like the wiggers or that were the most
central asian areas of China, which are so different than the Han areas right. I think smaller countries probably deal with this less, although look in a place like Iraq, IRAN had three major divisions and a tunnel minor ones mean yet Shi Ite. She had soon Asia Kurds and they used it before Saddam Hussein was depose. They used to say about him that it may take on iron his dinner here that about you, just lobby to an iron fist and sort of regime to keep these people from killing each other, which is what they they would say at the time they naturally want to do so. I dont know, I think all I can talk about with even a semblance of a view is our country, and I do think we naturally pull ourselves apart. I think you're seeing that now and a tie this all in a bow I'm wondering if the social media aspect of it isn't accelerating and amplifying the whole thing? I think you're I think, you're right. I want to clarify my earlier statement cause. I don't I kind of cut my way way to clarify statements. I have about six. I declare I don't want to
for that. What I said earlier. We dont want the United States of San Francisco, but we also don't want the United States of Mississippi. I think I only said half that and I think a bunch of people like this guy, he hates the south and loves Africa. I just want to San Francisco. We don't want people who run that place run in our country, but neither do we want to. I would say that there are a few things about San Francisco. I wouldn't mind having a few things about Miss it be I wouldn't mind having I like that. I like that the food in both places is extremely, has a lot to recommend itself. Great restaurants San Francisco. We can leave it right there for that particular line of thought right. I know you talk radio and you have to see this now when you can media political hacks and talk show host. They love to misuse historical examples. Right they'll say like this situation: this situation, where in right now it's the same as dot dot, DOT Hitler and ninety thirty eight and it doesn't even matter whether talking about is always Hitler. Nineteen thirty eight! Where do you see this kind of thing happening now? This sort of blatant misuse
you're, not everywhere yeah, ok, every would give a few examples in minors adieu broad here's, the problem. The problem is that there is an assumption built into it. That's wrong. The assumption is that somehow, let's take the example, you use the nineteen thirty eight examples all based on Munich appeasement of dictators, goes back to if we'd only been tougher on Hitler during barely moves. We could have avoided the second World war. I mean Churchill had called the Second World WAR, the unnecessary war because he had wanted to do, but he said be tougher on Hitler during the earlier. The mistake is in assuming Hitler in nineteen thirty eight is representative of any other person in any similar, said waste because we heard it with Saddam Hussein right where they said, because I brought him a Berlin wall. We know not to appease dictators. This is how the same as we know, not european
tears, had we learn this in nineteen thirty, eight block. No, we didn't. We learned in nineteen thirty, eight in a very specific german sort of situation that you can't appease that particular dictator at that particular time. In other words, this idea that history teaches us lessons that you can then plug in X, for why, in another time period is wrong and there, the almost no historians believe that, and so when they start to use. History is an example of what to do or not to do in a current or future situation. That is a misuse of it right there. Now you can learn certain things you can say to yourself. Ok, we should be careful here because this might happen right, but to sit there and go no. We learned in ironclad lesson from that circumstance. Its applicable in other circumstances, with a thousand different variable is wrong, and so we need a misusing history simply using history as a tool to guy future actions in a rigid way is a fallacy. To begin with so much, when somebody start doing that I instantly now they haven't read much history or don't know much about it. He, I think, that's all.
with a majority people. Honestly, regarding political are not necessary, having looked at history and a nuanced way, it's a problem, though it's a problem because how? If you're gonna, make an argument with somebody a political argument? What do you use to bolster your case, once upon a time in an era where we had basically agreed upon faxed on, they may have been fallacies, but even if they were basically agreed upon fallacies, you could use them. As a talking point right, you can make an argument with them in this post. Truth era, where the first thing the other person's going to say to you as well, I don't buy your faxing where'd. You get that information. In other words, you never get past questioning the sources in a situation like that you're left to trying to figure out How do I bolster my case? If I have, if I'm in a post, truth society and a lot of times, people will go well, look at historical examples. I will do that myself, but it's the way you use those historically
apples that determines whether or not it makes some sense to apply it in this case or whether or not a bunch of crap that you're just using because usually because they heard somebody else use that argument and they think it sound. Valid the nineteen thirty eight one is the one that drives me the craziest, because it literally applicable to that situation only and to think otherwise is to pretend that everyone ever been and authoritarian in any country in the world is going to act like every other authoritarian, as I mean like somehow there robots and if they have programming and that the programming requires The act. This way- and I mean it's ludicrous when you really sort of break it, open and examined it. I think the fact that it continues to work shows that nobody really does that can America unpopular rise in european air are there, but maybe I better question is: are their examples, historical examples of society's de polarizing that you think might apply? I think about this all the time. I absolutely think about this all the time. So I'm gonna give you an answer. Somebody else gave- and I don't even like the people that gave it, but there was a group called project for new american century
a while back and before the nine eleven attacks they had put out a paper was more of an internal thing, it was on the internet. It was taken down after nine eleven, but somebody saved it. Unlike the way back machine, or something like that, I'm paraphrasing from memory here, but the project for new american century group in sort of laying out the document that they were going to show had tried to say. Ok, this is the lay of the land, and one of the things that they had said was the lay of the land is that the United States naturally pulls itself apart in normal times, and that it is certain incidents which pull together so Pearl Harbor in the Second World WAR was an example that they used in the rear. In that the document is, is controversial and was saved in the people. Still point you days, it almost looks like they're asking for a nine eleven, the way that they phrase it in order to contradict the normal forces that pull the United States apart, and they even said something like a Pearl harbor or something. So you can
me. Why, especially if you're a little bit conspiratorial minded, you go ah well, but their point is well taken in the sense that everything left to its own devices will pull ourselves apart, but periodically something happens like a second world war. Something that contradicts the normal lay of the land pulls together again for a while, and then the process begins anew once we return to normal see, so I'm trying to incorporate all these kinds of ideas. As I try to figure out myself, do we really have to go through some sort of cataclysm that all of a sudden puts all Americans on the same team against a common opponent? Is that really how far we have to go? So I'm trying to find an alternative to that at the moment? So that's the lay of the land, though, as as I'm looking at it. This is, Jordan Harbinger share with our guest Dan Carlin, we'll be right back and now conclusion of my conversation with Dan Carlin. That's get scary to think about that big
one you know nobody wants a stir of catastrophic event, but too I can see something like Look if we we're nine eleven now or Pearl Harbor right now. Let's do Pearl Harbor, it's a little less emotionally charged. I can see the internet getting flooded with the Democrats. Did it Donald Trump? Did it it's an inside job, which is what they said about nine eleven in eleven in the first place and then there'd be a whole bunch of people. That said that never happened. It's a hoax pearl harbor! Still there just a my friends friend he just was there He just said he was There- may take it to the next level. What, if a bunch of the people line making that case, going back to your Pearl harbor example were japanese yeah. What if they the japanese, military and intelligence services being the ones.
No paying thousands of people to go onto you S, message boards and spread that information. Her somebody said to me that a lot of what's pulling this country apart is dish information from other countries, intelligence services- let's yanked Russia, as they get that they are the number one country that gets blamed for this. My answer to that is, if this is true and if they manage to pull us apart through the use of social media, pretending to be other Americans and starting fights with I mean that would be the greatest intelligence coup in all human history. Definitely, and yet you do not have be some sort of conspiracy believer to think that that might be happening, because this is standard operating procedure. We know that countries around the world have groups of people that operate that way and I'm
pretty sure we do some of this. Our selves I mean we doesn't, is the modern day social me equivalent of what Radio Free Europe was back during the cold war. All though I it's funny, because when you see how much the Soviets got freaked out over one clandestine radio signal, piercing their iron curtain will look, have now its wide open space, at least radio Free Europe. You knew who was broadcasting it right. You news by nowadays the guy you're Talkin, due on the on the message board about football, whose name is Ben, might be a guy in the Soviet Union who works for their intelligence services. Deliberate job is to make a friend of you and then explain the EU how your liberal neighbours ruining America. You know this isn't conspiracy, theory, I've done tonnes. This shows about its, not Renee, dressed out enough. You ve heard of seventy six, but if you search Jordan, Urban do not come for this information, or are things like that? I mean there. There's a ton of evidence is another guy, Quint Emerson who talks about russian Botz and disinformation. The reason that Russia,
is it more, as the KGB has been doing this since the beginning of the KGB, they spend the majority of their budget on information warfare where's, the CIA is more sort of like technical step. I mean this is this is not spirits theory at all which, as we know, doing it? We know they're doing it to us. We just you just don't know of Ben in Chicago is bad in Chicago or Vladimir, in a suburb of Moscow and the other problem is- and I dont want to like the villain eyes, anybody there doing it to russian citizens to write? So this isn't just like they hate Amerika, and I think russian people are some of the smartest and talk about a civilization that, if their government would just stop shooting itself in the foot would be just an amazing in already is an amazing civilization could be on tethered one of the greatest world powers. That adds value instead of just constantly trying to figure out how to stop themselves from getting robbed by the next oligarch. This is another show, but yet these types of things are clearly
happening. The disinformation stuff is one of the things I am constantly fighting against and trying to teach people how to think instead of telling them what to think like everyone else. This is itself that keeps me up at night, because people got well if our nation can fall just cause. So people are arguing on social media, then so be it. Will it people mines are the biggest weapon near the public. The miner, the public has the biggest weapon, the biggest cudgel that anyone can wield in, not just that. I dont know what its reasonable to expect people to be able to do so. I give you an example. My background is news and an back before there was an internet that any woman's using them in the result we have to go and directive late sixties. There was an internet, but an internet than any moment using part of my job was to read five newspapers a day right when I got to work, and I consider myself to be a pretty savvy guy when it came to news judgment, I actually could name most the reporters
by lions appeared in the paper by name. So after a while, you start to know their tendencies, you become a real savvy news, consumer. It took time, but you could do it. Ok, so fast forward. Do now as savvy a news, consumers I am and, like you said, I want to talk radio after that I was doing, but I mean I've never stopped being as consumer. I was just about to say it takes me everything, but I'm not even sure, I'm successful added to try to to separate the wheat from the chaff, the information, the disinformation and I'm having a problem when this is a twenty four seven gig for me with thirty years of experience, how is somebody else who has a different life? You know western
to their accounting job or their acting job or whatever it might be. They can't spend all the time and they have been five years of experience if I can't figure it out. What are they supposed to do here and so that this becomes a basic building block of disaster in a free society, because if you can't, if you dont, have information like I said earlier, I am not so naive to believe that we ever had truthful information. Being disseminated honestly, but I'm not sure that you have to do for things to function if back in the days when we believe that the New York Times was telling you the truth, and you can have it argument around the water cooler work and cite the New York Times, and ninety percent of the people in the office would accept that whether the facts were true or not, you could actually eminence funny that you don't have to have truth to plugin for truth to have it works, like truth, but I mean- not even have that destroys the ability to have conversations across different political groups and then you're just talking to people in your own bubble. The most
name of those people are able to whip everybody up into farther and farther fetch the ideas, question motivations of people that might be completely benign and turn them into evil minutes. The part that blows me away now is how much the equivalent of the word evil for our country minutes thrown around out there? There is no compromise with evil right when everyone's either a nazi or a marxist in our country? There's no room to get together and solve things right, so that to me is the problem, the death of objective truth or the death of things that looked like objective there are, throwing a monkey ranch in our ability to work our way out of this he absolute look now, you can even engage in these discussions. Otherwise your collaborator and become the enemy to that's. My problem is that of whether or what they say you know if you try to see both sides, the word that they use for me all the time is what about is right here, I'll, say: ok, but what about is a might be just trying to bring people together, but if you must can
the other side, otherwise you're in evil person or some one that is, enabling evil? Ok with it. It's the same thing, if everybody's a Nazi or a marxist van, if you are trying to see the nazi side of things or the marxist side of things, you might as well be a fellow traveller. So I mean I think, that's Thirdly, what kills us is that not only do we not acknowledge the validity of a middle ground, we actively turn it into an evil itself. Right simply being in the middle is evil when moral times call. For you know, people to choose it's right, pick a team to pick a team Jordan. You can have it both ways, and then people go here just doing this, because you dont want to alienate those on the right in your audience. It doesnt you're, not gonna, like yes, but not for the reason you think it is not because I know I'm in a loose outdoors it because if I say hey person who believes in this thing Europe Frickin Idiot, then they go and they turn it off. But if I say what about this and what about that, some of the people who are on these Paul's go. You know, maybe not everything is black and white and eight people start to gravitate towards the other side or or get pulled towards the centre, and you can't do that.
You pick aside what you can't do that, if you can have these conversations, you can't do that if you do like you said before, we are forced to pay. A team or everything is effective. It is amazing to see how our little disk and has even allowed. Sometimes I get this message every day from somebody on the left and somebody on the right. The extreme pulls you know, you're turning a lot of people off with your bias, and I go ok and I have to ask what by us, because it's never it's always something new. It's what you said this about vaccines. Are you had this person on, so you must support they say, I'm thinking. Do you literally think that every person that you do support every person whose a conversation with you, because if so that's gotta be exhausting our every piece of content that you consume has to be a cheerily for something you already believe in and though always say no but why you playing that standard to me and you see that happening all all across the board, especially online. It's like you can't even talk to somebody
like you can't even have l, Frank and honour bench appear on, because if you do the other side's, like you know I d platforms, you shouldn't me talkin that person. Why? Because they disagree with something in it, usually the can't even point to exactly what they disagree with its just a feeling, or it's just that persons other guarantee the opposite team. I think that might eat itself. I think, I think it might be cyclical and I think it might eat itself. I mean take, for example, just picking up One little thing that's going on right now are the inability of people to speak freely. I think, as you, limit the space more and more for people to speak their mind even for unpopular things, eventually you're going to affect the very people that are the most the biggest supporters of such things. Right and they're not going to be able to speak their mind, and then it becomes something where eventually it becomes. The cool rebel thing to do
to push against that. We know the same way that younger people always want to upset their parents and that's a dynamic, that's not going away so I mean, I think, look look at, for example, the nineteen fifties during the mockery. The era where you had it'll look like the United States went temporarily insane for seven or eight years right and then the The thing is the minute it went away. It was like everybody realised what the hell just half
but while you are in the middle of the insanity, it's hard to get perspective on, I think anything that keeps people from freely speaking their mind or creating or performing. I think something like that has a natural lifespan, because, like a terrible fire, I think it burns itself out. Here's the funny thing, though I am not sure that it hasn't done some positive things. At the same time, let me give you an example: the Harvey wine steam me to movement, my wife and I were talking about then one point: something had happened where she said well, I think this is may be going too far now and I said hun I say when you have something that is as deeply rooted as the casting couch in Hollywood just doing enough, but not too much to get rid of. It may not scrape the soil deeply enough to have a lasting effect. Sometimes in- and you see this over and over human history in every summer,.
is the pendulum almost has to swing too far, for it won t be effective but too for it to break the spell like the Mccarthy report is the line that the guy being questioned by Joseph Mccarthy's. It sir. At long last, have you no decency veto and everybody woke up our Moreau? Do the thing we basically said you know: how long is this going to continue and everybody woke up? I think some good things have come out of all this, including us understanding a little bit more just how hurtful and damaging things like words, and I grew up bully A lot of people did in my generation. I always felt like it made it, maybe a stronger person, but you know what: how would you have loved to have been the most unattractive girl in high school? Do you know what that must be like, and I think this whole movement has taught us a little bit. How do you think about those people and how is what you're saying that just seems even sort of harmless, basically to you? How could this be destroyed, contributing to
drawing another person's world too. In the same way, I think the me to move it would have had to scrape the soil a little bit deeper than most of us would have liked. In order to be permanent, I like to think that there's gonna be something good that comes with it. I don't think we can continue to focus on it the level of intensity we do now without impacting all of us in ways that we don't like, and I think that's normal with with movements, I think normally it. Nothing is a hundred percent positive all the time, but I think at a certain point, you're going to see a snap back from some of this that I hope takes us to a level where weaken not make that trauma that high school girls experience any worse, but at the same have some freedom where, for example, creative artists can go out there and pushed the boundaries in the envelopes of of creative artistic expression and not be destroyed four in closing here, let's say in forty years, still going strong, do and hard core History are a hundred years writers to gods, trying it ever gonna retire, and you ve got some amazing vitamin whatever hooker, what episode
hard core history. Are you doing about this time that we live in right now? What are you talking about during that episode? That is just bad shit. Crazy right. Can you bill that in twenty twenty twenty twenty one this happen in this set us on this path for the future? What's that episode about? It depends on what happens in the inner room right, because that's going to determine exactly how you sort of evaluate this chair, I mean, for example, if it the way I was just talking about and we look at this period like an insane error, like another Mccarthy era, that we have a lot of insane periods in the world you can look at then its ones evaluation. If, however, despite everything I just told you, we kept lying down and doubling down and doubling down and amplifying all these trends that you and I have been talking about- the have some negative ramifications- we're doing to show in that case, but I mean I well my point is that we would have evaluating differently. It sorted depends on where things go. I do think this is.
Are we going to be one of those areas that, in ten years we analyze pretty intently and we figure that we learn some lessons from, but looked Everything, as I said earlier with another point into a bow. I dont know where the internet's gonna take us in people's communications, and I mean there has never been a period in human history. Were average people have had voices they have now in one level of my brain, I've always thought that that would be a great thing to give every body a voice, I'm watching what its when everybody has a voice, and I dont know what I think of it. I just know that we're easily exploitable- and I think that's the problem so then, if your easily exploitable and turned into a position that sought, let's just say, not even a truthful one right, you're living in a fantasy world and then if you the power to talk to other people who also believe we're living in a fantasy world and together, you can create a narrative that we limit a fantasy. Were I mean we live in it, times. We really do you're everyone here
democratization of content, you're thinking, hey, I can do hard core his real name Persia and nobody can tell ya you can't perform in front of an audience anymore mid. I was selling this stuff to investors, but you know that you're not selling to investors. Oh, but let me warn you might be bad when everybody can broadcast their five can cause is covered in the Jews. Are lizard people like you? Would you like that out of the proposal right, adding get in festers anyway? That really would have killed the mood, I think so I mean in people think I'm joking. When I give those examples, there's one and it gives those specific examples- very famous guy in the Uk- that's where I get this happy Where do you come up with this real action? conspiracy there to have him his followings online. Really in your at. I asked you to try and pretty. future. I know that that's tough, I'm! Actually, I guess asking you to highlight what you think is most important about the present, You ve done, and I know when the middle the storm right now, so it is really hard to do, but that this was dark, but it was fun. You know your great creator,
and upon Castro's always good time rapidly with innovation was dark man. This is dark. We can. We can do lot darker than is, I think, you're I think, you're right. I think the next one it's gonna be like algae aright. So well, you know what you're good at keeping the dark interesting are making the dark interesting, but you're right, I think we can. We can do much. Darker, hopefully, will be looking for something to darken our bright moods in ten or twenty years, because that we just nothing, would have solved all these problems will be looking for certain a spice the mood up, a little that are now, let's hope, we're all retired in a happy place by then that's ramps. That's right thanks! So much thanks for having me I'd, appreciate it. If you're looking for episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sink or teeth into here's, a trailer of our interview with Moby, iconic, musician and producer. This was a super real conversation about creativity, mental health money and what really makes people happy and fulfilled lobby was really open with this one,
and even if you're, not a fan of the music, I guarantee you will dig this episode. I grew up, and arguably the wealthiest town, the United States, Darien Connecticut, my mom and I were on food stamps, the welfare. My first punk rock western audience of one dog and my first like music show was two miles: Davis that wanted to stop the show impatient splendid, the movie stars in the beautiful people that they made a mistake. celebrating me, but I was in nothing. I was a kid from Connecticut, worse secondhand clothes in the front seat of his mom's car. While she cried and tried to figure out where she borrow money to buy groceries. Now it was Ninety nine, I was an insecure, has been, but we kept playing.
Celebrities kept dancing in chairing the weird thing is things started to go wrong when I stopped feeling that way? Ninety ninety nine, I thought that my career had ended. My mom had died of cancer. I was battling substance abuse problems as battling panic attacks. I lost my record deal and I was making this one last album like ok, I make this album all put it out with a back to Connecticut Connecticut I'll, a job teaching philosophy, some community college and then all of a sudden, the world embraced embraced. I handle fame, dwells really disastrously so humiliating. I wouldn't trade any of it for more from, though including how he bounced back from a four hundred drink per month. Booze abbot check out episode, one ninety six of the Jordan Harbinger show.
This was a fun when we had a lot more, we could have done, but, but you know we both had to get back to staring at the all of our living room as what does depend hammock studying history, you're really good glimpse at a timeline, sometimes literally in for me. Whenever I think I'm not moving forward or I'm stuck in neutral? I always train zoom out on the time. fine, and you realize that we dont progress at a linear speed development can speed up or slow down both as an individual or as a civilization. When we're young it's hard for us to see that it is I get older. I realized that seeing this knowing this is a huge advantage and accused me from going in In some of the time, more importantly, right now we are a very divided society, and I know we must have historical examples of this. I don't think they ended well So I wonder, can the United States can the west as a whole combat from the brink. Are we even on the brink to begin with radio night about this on the show before his cycle of the changing world order and where
on that cycle. In his estimation, that's episode for nine one, if you're interested my conversely, with ray Dahlia, so will the boat right itself or will it capsized? That is the question. We all have a vested interest in seeing them worthy of a country. The majority of our society do very well because otherwise, according to history outcome, the pitchforks big yet again, Carl and his newest book is called. The end- is always near apocalyptic moments from the bronze age collapse to nuke your near misses links to all his stuff will be in the website in the not Jordan, harbinger dot com. Please use our website links if you buy books from any of the guests on the show. It does help support us here. Worksheets for the episodes are in the show, notes, transcripts or on the shoulder there's a video of this interview go up on the Youtube Channel, Jordan, harbinger dot com, Slash Youtube. We also have a brand new clips channel with cuts clips that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see it. Where else Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash clips is where you can find that I'm at
Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram produce hit me on Linkedin on teaching. You how to connect with people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six minute networking course. Not courses, courses, Free Dover, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash course dig the well before you get thirsty most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course they contribute to the course come join you'll, be in smart company. Where I know you belong, the show is created in association with Podcast one. Might Ms Jen Harbinger J Sanderson Robert Frogeity, Milieu Campo, Eden, bared, Josh, Ballard, Gabriel, Ms Raw. He remember we rise lifting others the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody is interested in history if they loved and Karl and hard core history pod gas, or you think this discussion would appeal to them- share this episode with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of issue. Please share the show with those you care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time
Transcript generated on 2022-03-04.