Tamer Elnoury is an Arabic-speaking Muslim American, a longtime elite counterterrorism undercover agent, and co-author of American Radical: Inside the World of an Undercover Muslim FBI Agent.What We Discuss with Tamer Elnoury:
- What unique psychological skills (and desire for thrills) drew Tamer to the exciting and dangerous life of undercover law enforcement work?
- Why, when working undercover, you're only as good as your informant.
- How an agent is trained to work undercover (and why the FBI undercover school only has a 50 percent graduation rate).
- How an undercover agent blends in with criminals without breaking the laws they've been recruited to enforce.
- What an undercover agent does to hook a mark into noticing and eventually confiding in them.
- And much more...
Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/572
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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and he said Tamar. This town needs another nine eleven who were going to give it to me. I've heard him say so much horrible things for so long that you think at that moment in time I could have just accepted it gone up and did my job, but I couldn't, I imagine, killing him right there, and then I imagine stabbing many. I would add. I had my pocket and leaving him for dead. Welcome to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger, show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have enough conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies psychologists, even the occasional mafia, enforcer arms dealer or neuroscientist scientist. Each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice. You can use build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinking
your new to the show or you want to tell some friends about it. Of course, I would appreciate it when you do check out our episode starter packs. These are collections of top episodes organised by topic. It helps new listeners, get a taste of everything that we do here on this just visit, Jordan, Harbinger, dotcom, slash, start to get started or to help. Somebody else get started here with the shell, they Tamar L, nor not his real name, deep under cover in the? U S, and Canada to infiltrate islamic extremists? Terror groups that have a big mission there, we'll dive into under. Cover agents are recruited trained in place how he was able to get hard core terrorists to trust him like a brother and divulged, their secrets resulting in their arrest, and I just bought a first among other stories, from our hero of a guest today, by the way, if you're, what us on Youtube and all you see as a pixelate blob. That's because Tom are still has other people to want to kill him. Not surprisingly, obviously, I'm the other blocked the pale blah blah blah less picks awaited
If you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing thinkers creators, authors, undercover agents every single week it because of my network, teaching you how to build your network for free, no credit card nonsense, none of that stuff. Over at Jordan Harbin dot com, slash course, by the way. Most of the guests you here on the show they subscribe and contribute to the course come join us european, smart Company, where you belong now, just Tamar L nursery you ve, got more crack heroin and other drugs than most Muslims. America is that it can play its part that I'd like to think so. Yeah yeah, it's itself, may be tell us wise opium I just confused. I cut my teeth in my career as an undercover narcotics enforcement. So you do an undercover drug buys right. I mean in the beginning of the book, your kind of like you're playing like this sort of
Well, first of all, you naughty and plan anybody close yourself, your plane, like different ethnicities in your basically be unlike YO. Let me get that crack or whatever from drug dealers and when you're in a kitchen with a drug king pin and another drug dealer, and they ve got there. guns somewhere in the house or on their person, and they are doing drugs right in front of you. Are you this are, you excited like. What's going on? What do you feel and in tat moment it definitely isn't adrenaline rush? Unlike anything, I could describe working under cover putting your arm around someone telling them that you're their best friend getting them to believe you. I think the psychological aspects of my job, and that is what really drew me to it more than anything else
getting some other believe your legend or your persona that you are representing you're not acting, is hard to describe. You have to believe what you're selling in, if you keep the truth as close as possible to reality, then you're not acting in doing so. You get to see the underbelly of society. in a way that most law enforcement care, because they'll see you coming a mile away, you get to actually understand their point of view, and I was always a big thing for me. Hear you say that acting and I'm no, I'm no actor. So I really don't know, but it almost sounds like the definition of acting where you're kind of believing it so much that you become that character. Right I mean you, you ve heard of like I acting right, we're Daniel Day Louis, while pretending to make people call on Mr President, because he's going to be Abraham Lincoln, like he's eating Abraham, Lincoln eight unlike shopping, would in the back yard or whatever, with an ax yeah, it seems almost like method, acting where at least half The EU believes that you're a drug dealer or whatever at that point right. You know what I guess if you look at it that way, your exact
right, I don't know much about acting. I know what little I learn that mean you did it well enough to knock it murdered? So there's yeah yeah. I guess you can call it acting of course, because, obviously, I'm not a drunk, obviously, I'm not a killer on the planning, the deaths of thousands of Americans regularly in being a normal human being? But yes, there is some level of acting, but I can't look at it that way, because the second and I guess that's what actors do actors, don't think about the fact that their active you just get in the role you convince your our first before you convince your subject and as long as you're convinced everything should follow suit how long were you doing undercover narcotics, and it was this, what you wanted to do when you got into the police force? Would you like look? I hate drugs, they ruin communities. This is what I want to do. I was kind of like a man. We need you do an undercover of course, you're, not a white looking cop, like everyone else here, that's funny
Jordan, has no one's ever asked me that I got into law enforcement. For you know the stereotypical answers you help people people, I Didn'T- want a typical ninety five job. I couldn't sit in a cubicle. I couldn't be a business major the more in school when I got into law enforcement, I didn't really know where I would fall in that spectrum and I realize quickly in the police, the cat. That. There is a military born in my body, apparently a very big lack of authority, lack for authority, a lack of respect, lack of respect for thirty grey area. So, like someone telling you what to do, you like I'm not doing that because I don't want to because you said to you and my father always joke that I should have to the military when you eighteen, because I failed. He sat jokingly, of course, so right because now joke is sort of on him, where it's like. Actually you being a disrespectful, Bastard was like the perfect you added great exact
I was always a little bit of a divine. I little love, you know, skirt the lines so to speak, and I think that's what looking back it now, and the FBI tested us prior to the FBI, undercover school, you have all these Taipei personalities taken a test and you see them. on spectrum and they're all given letters, mine with you and one of the nine or ten in that arena? And I was up one or two so familiar is my hand ass the psychiatrist. Why is it that I am a nowhere near everyone else, and that was the joke. An undercover school is that you know my ability to relate to beat and not really follow rules. Help me understand. Basically, the criminal mind set the terrorist mindset and put me in a better position to understand and live outside of rules. You know I always wondered this about the FBI because they recruited from our school.
Stuff like that and from our law school- and I remember thinking like ok, I get what you want: lawyers, the F B. I mean it's good. You want over achievers trying to solve crimes, but a lot of the people that wanted to apply. They are safe. like I'm talking about like good luck, Tal athletic super smart guys with like a really good pedigree in your mom's, like a senator somethin, I get in go yeah, I'm not going to make it because I smoke pot in college and like kind of a lot, but not a ton, but kind of a lot in like waiting for you on, like the varsity rowing team of like some blue bloods, school and they're like yeah, and I thought okay, why do you think that a bunch of dudes who spent refrain what moment in church, and I don't mean to not disparaging religious people. What I'm saying is like really good. You don't want really the best people trying to think like criminals because they are not used to it. You are like a touch of scumbag in their right ecosystem.
without a doubt, yeah it's a catch? Twenty two, though, if you think about it, it is you trying to get the best society, but at the same time, when you shoot too high, there has to be a happy metal. There has to be someone, who's actually live their lives and I think the bureau, I think law enforcement in general is starting to take that turn and starting to understand that people who represent law enforcement- should be representative of the community they serve. They should be a mirror image of who they serve. If there's too much of a discrepancy between law enforcement, the government and the people they serve, I think that's when you run into some problems. I think so I so think, like you want to find and look I'm no expert, I'm running this by you more of a question, but it seems like you would want people who would probably do some bad shit but they're so afraid of caught that the best way for them to do this is like under the auspices of lawn, like I would love to the hacks,
terms and learn how to do that. Our like go. I can do this in that nothing and bus people, but I don't want to get caught and then thrown into jail. So the best to do is make me go after the people that are doing that, because I'm basically giving him it is their own medicine and then, at the end, I get a word or something like that? Like that's perfect, for somebody like me, rent absolutely Jordan. We had a saying back in my drug days, you're only as good as your informed and some of the best informants I've ever had where the people that you are describing, those who are super smart, super savvy got caught, doing something been, could never have a law enforcement career but they're the ones that you had your wagons they're, the ones that I had that informant. That I mentioned in the book he put more coconut than any detective or any cop. I ever worked with that's how smart he wasn't it Well, he knew the game how plugged in he was, and it wasn't a bad guy. Wasn't it where he was, and he was just a business man in the wrong side of the fence, and he was my best informed, yeah yeah. I totally makes sense. I get that it could be kind of
slippery slope, though, right leg? You don't want to empower smart people to do tons of bad things. We ve seen that go awry in Afghanistan and other places where we're like. Now we can totally control this rebellious army of guys that live in caves. We just need to give them tons of weapons and training nothing's going to go wrong and have to be kind of careful with that sort of thing which leads me sort of to the point of the book, which is at some point. You switch from buying drugs from drug dealers to focusing on islamic terror, and that is kind of a personal term. For you right absolutely essential is the perfect store. As I mentioned, I was getting into law enforcement to help people in all the right reasons, and I found narcotics enforcement under cover specifically to be my forte. If you will, because of my ability to relate to people and because of my need to not be the Swat guy hitting the door but the guy getting to know these individuals for causing havoc on a personal level
prior to in helping to build a case that way that skill set set me up for something I had no idea was coming. I'm a Muslim, I'm american, I'm in law enforcement to have friends best friends of every race, ethnicity, religion, it was never an issue, would never think that after nine slash eleven, we got punched in the face by an enemy that mainstream America. Just simply didn't understand. I didn't know enough about it. Didn't really matter what religion someone was, but all the sudden thousands of people are getting killed in our backyard in the name of a religion that most people didn't understand and that's how it became personal. Nine hundred and eleven was personal to all of us, but that's what took a turn for me, and I was hoping that I can help out with someone. yeah. This is interesting to this interesting to hear, because I remember distinctly a lot of obviously just hateful kind of bullshit conversations where people would say things like No Jews died on nine eleven numb like. Are you the? What who told
that you know or like. Where do you even think that the information comes from or they'll say? Oh, so the money? limbs that we have cause. I lived in New York after that. They say, like all, there's a lot of Muslims here, but they're like sleep or cells and like just do even the basic math and how many people that is. That is a ridiculous comment to make to mention how many Muslims and jewish people died in the tower Mhz just like none of it makes any sense. But there was all this distrust, so I can understand how, as a Muslim who lives in America you're like a man. Not only does this make everyone look bad, but if you're religious is probably the most blasphemous that anybody can do to your religion right, they're, using it to murder. People like of innocent people. Absolutely fine I'll! Tell you
now I'm not as religious as I should be, as we all think twenty four people who do follow up religion, we all feel like we could be more religious than we are, and I'm definitely sure on that spectrum as well, I'm not as religious as my sister or my father, but I lived with and grew up with the religion of Us1 and knowing full well that this was not the religion that was being portrayed. It kind of broke me a little bit inside. I think that's what kind of had me crying open at the time. None of us really knew what was happening it was. It took us all by surprise, my initial reaction, my knee jerk reaction, was to simply help with translations with wiretaps. Whatever I can do, I was in law enforcement. I spoke arabic, I'm a Muslim. Let me do what I can to help, but the f B. I wasn't prepared at that time to take on this new enemy at that you know The way things played out, yeah, ok. So what? How did you end up getting into it, though, where they just like fine every brow
guy in the department and send him to the F B. I like what you kind of mentioned. That's out when the blog you're going right away. You don't get out of it. Follow me right now. You know as a little ad hoc. There is definitely the recruiting those prior to. I remember my. Please carry me graduation, which was nineteen. Ninety six, I remember me, recruited into potentially joining up at that time, he was at the ninety three World Trade center bombing. It was still coming to light, but it was still a criminal thing. Wasn't really intelligence yet, but it wasn't until several years have passed and I was doing about little over ten years strictly under governor Colleagues, when I met the FBI under Cover coordinator out of New York, New Jersey at a private, the envy office that Canada shifted, my dears Edith met them at the DMZ. Well, it's not an actual. The envy of the natural private office run by the state police.
And its essential we made for undercover. Specifically wisdom is supposed to be. I see you get your like fake credentials, everything from this correct, a kind of wondered. back. Then, how do you get that without, like some schmo at the front? ass, being like go hey, here's your fake driver's license, guy who's, definitely doing somethin shady. You know like that makes sense, because they got a clear those people to read. Yeah. That's actually all law enforcement specifically. So when I was there and when I thought was some shit head was locked again dressed like a biker and he look like a mobster biker. I was will annoy to state trooper the sergeant at the best like. What are you doing? This is why I buy drugs. This is where I'm working. Why you letting some guy like this, and it wasn't until I took a peek at his blackberry and realize cuz, thank God. His eyes were bad cuz, it's fun huge, that you got an email from the Department of Justice. That's when I asked myself my man who you it and he says who you were like Sopranos Extra YAP, and that was it. He asked me
what I did and I explained to him- and he said what nationality or you could he couldn't place it? When I told him I was egyptian because these speak Arabic yeah, what religion. Are you if you don't mind me asking it Tom all about myself by me the coffee and then he asked me to help me out on a case that some, those centrally they were testing, and making sure I wasn't just because you speak a language and you look a certain love. Doesn't mean you have what it takes to act in an undercover capacity, especially over long term. That's different animal altogether. Yeah. That's interesting. Tell me about that. as you hear that a lot or how hard can it To find somebody to work under cover a lot of people speak. Arabic are a lot of people speak, but it's like the hard part is not finding the
Dude, who speaks manner in the hard part, is finding somebody who can what pretend to be someone there not for three months at a time or a year honestly, along and tell you there's many obstacles, especially as we get more and more into the digital age. For example, the last few years of under cover schools. I've noticed that a lot of these kids come on are socially awkward. You know they can communicate with healthy is charged with, while they can communicate without bit mode. Geezer tat,
thing is just about to tell you right now: go sit in the barn talk to that guy get as much information as you can't from a lot of people struggle with that yeah. It's that old fashioned human contact that we found was a major hurdle. Put matters side were all Taipei personalities. At least most people get into law enforcement or military are, and when you're Taipei personality is very very hard to dangle a carrot and not go after it. So as an undercover, you have to be disciplined enough to walk away from doing dirty from walk away from giving up too much of yourself and make it as natural as possible. You have to almost step outside yourself and Lastly- and I tell you, it took me years of listening to myself on tape before I tell myself shut the fuck up, we don't need to hear you any more. Let the bad guy talk, because, as an undercover, your desperately trying to get your legend across Europe desperately trying to get your story across and you're not actively listening to what the
it's our town, so there's so many nuances and layers doing undercover work that it takes time and it takes a certain kind of personality. Before you get a couple who are special, how do you have Andy just have them obviously there's undercover school. I assume some testing happens there and some people you just like to shake your head and go this guy's going to get killed in the first job, but there's got to be some. Like rubber meets the road. Ok, we think maybe they're ready, but we're not sure. What are you test somebody out? Well, the school is very sensitive. Obviously so I'll talk around a bunch of different things, but I was I will say this: there are scenarios and things of that nature and believe it or not. Everything is real in the sense that everything has happened to an actual undercover. So you put people in situations to see how they would react. Are they gonna break cover?
stay on standpoint stay on track, keep the train moving. If you will, because the undercover is the engineer of the investigation for the case officers and everyone else- that's interesting right, because that means that your kind of, loss, if you're, the one who is doing actual undercover work. Is that correct? Absolutely I tell my undercoat right now. I'm an executive managed, ok, and the first thing I told my under covers is there is no rack and under cover you're the boss, because you're the one that's on the ground, you're the one that says everything and hears everything and feels everything before we do by the time you get back to us and tell us, so you every decision you make, is yours and yours alone, and as long as you know, what the goals of the investigation are. What is and is an acceptable what you can and cannot do and what matters most. We trust your judgment. That's a big huge amount of trust that you're putting in one person, but it has to be that way, because
you're frontline soldier. You got a chain of command same in law enforcement, your patrolman all the way up to the chief. At the end of the day, everything goes through the chain of command, but those decisions in an undercover covert operation have two absolutely need to go by the undercover they're not coming we can't be pushed a supervisor can't tom you're going in there you're buying this much heroin and you're doing excellency does now life works us now reality is tat, makes sense right. They, cancer, go into this dark basement with no radio communication. Where we can see you, even though you told don't feel safe in your getting all the creepy red flag vibes. Just do it anyway, like from the safety of his van or the office right like the first priority is to make sure that you don't get killed or injured on the job. Absolutely not is the only thing in law enforcement that still voluntary. You can never be told you have to work in an undercover capacity interesting. So what are they try? I mean you mentioned the school sensitive,
so obviously describe as much as you can without giving our trade craft, but yeah it's gotta be kind of like acting school and in some respects, rent to an extent to an extent. The biggest thing I can tell you and I think tat most. What I didn't understand when I was going through. It is the sleep deprivation. Ok, sleep, deprived, ok for those two weeks and by design by design one thousand percent because of the fact that when you're sleep deprived your true colours come out. and when you're working a long term, covert up they'll be times I'm hanging out with bad guys here overseas. It doesn't matter and I'll spend hours with them will travel together and when they go to sleep, they think I'm going to sleep, I'm actually going
safe house to debrief Tee, so I'm getting may be one to three hours max sleep a night before I go on the next day. In addition to remembering things, if I'm overseas, I can't really take notes. There's a lot of things that I have two cannot put into memories, so there's a ton of work that makes you sleep deprived, and I didn't realize this one. I was going through school, but that's sleep deprivation. Your true colours bleed out whether or not you you Billy, when you're sleep deprived, who you are, will come out. That's one of the main reasons why the up yonder corpuscle has a fifty percent graduation. You make terrible decisions, terrible mistakes, life and death mistakes when you're sleep deprived. If you can't no sleep deprivation, you'll never be able to work covert. Did they give you anything So what you know, those drugs that keep pilots alert for hours, I'm gonna? Get it unless that's a matter, while the only thing I've ever taken was saw. Some ambient a flip Maya schedule
problem really far and stuff cycle avoid jet lag. Cycling work when I hit the ground running, it seems Well, if you're under covers a drug dealer and you're tired, you, Since right, I don't understand like there's something, maybe get your hands on that might help with that, or is that frowned upon? That's that's a big mona. No, it's ok. I understand it the big, no, no because of what you're insurance or have the health care, but like what happened. I am a drug king, Pellinore, drug dealer and I've got a new shipment of drugs in and all of these thugs are hanging? in their blowin lines of cocaine and unlike Sit down hat join us in you're like no thanks. I don't do that staff. I mean what how second a fly right, but we could achieve S. Life is in that scenario. Back
I put a gun to my head and said you do in a line a coke at out, and how many would you like me yeah? You want me to Canada for you, of course, out. That's, obviously, a life in that situation you can articulated, but it's just not a good luck or a good deal. One. A police officer is acting in an undercover capacity and is breaking the law as well, as is its illegal. For starters, we technically can't break the law. We can be a part of burglaries, robberies, things of that nature. As a matter of fact, in federal work, you have to get was called away, which is otherwise illegal activities, and things like that in an effort to make sure ok that whatever crime your committing you're protective for in the gun? We can't go back and prosecute prosecute you later later on. So I look. This is a dumb question and I am sure I am not the first person to think about it here, though. So, if I'm a criminal,
Don't I just make everybody do crimes with me and the guy who goes like. I guys, I'm pretty busy today can't join the burglary like that's the captain right come on. There's gotta be away yeah yeah. There is a way that there is a way to avoid certain situations and sometimes there's a way. If you know that's, where you had it, then you jump in front of it. You actually, I was tell my under covers this- that I train you're only going to be held back by your own imagination. If you feel like that's where this movies headed you had him off at the pass, you set up your own criminal activity. Have them join you? and everybody that's happening. Whether it's a burglary robbery is all in a controlled situation where their other under covers, and things of that nature. You can paint whatever picture. You are to the bad guys to help believe your legend. There's nothing holding you back from what you can do. ok. So, instead of me having to go with you on your thing or that might
and later, and I guess it would have to be cleared, but maybe I'm the one who's like. I guess I got this idea. This is personal lives alone. She's all she's got a bunch of are, I know we can fence it. Thank you. No help me get in people look out for me I'll, go in and grab it, and then you just get a bunch of stuff that was seized from the previous bust. That's exactly right! Something to that effect. You can actually orchestrate your own soft crimes. If you will in an effort to maintain your car there's so much, you can do how does the back stopping work, not like the background investigation, but you mention in the book but you, the F B, I gave you like a website for whatever fake business you have and you ve got an office and there's a secretary like what do you have to prove that you're, the jet when you're undercover? It's a lot? Actually that's a full time. Gig and again I hate to be the guy. That says: well, that's sensitive. I can't talk about it, but it is not, of course, some of some of it is yet, but that is
one of the main reasons when people have asked me that before they ask me up, aren't you scared gone through these different places with all these horrible people, and I said to them the truth of the matter is now because these terrorists, they viewed me as access to the West money, someone who could help them further their plots all their acts of terror that they wanted to do. They actually took care of me better than he took care of themselves. Now, I'm not naive. I understand the fact that if my cover was blown, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you right right get that. But as long as my cover was in tat, I was more valuable to them than anybody else in the world would be so that back stopping unit was crucial and when I got to see the inner workings of the links that they went to to protect our identities gives you, the woman Fuzzy's. Ok, because you know that Europe is real,
There can be no matter who dicks your listening to the Jordan Harbinger Shell with our guest Tom, EL nursery, we'll be right back thanks. So much for listening to and supporting the show it's yours of our advertisers that helped keep the lights on around. Here we put off of the urals, all the special codes, all those coupon codes on one page, so you dont have to stop the car stopped running, stop bench present, whatever you do and they're all one page, you can find them and we love when you support our sponsors, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash deals is where you can find those please do consider supporting those who support this. Shell, don't forget, we ve got worksheets for many episodes of want some of the drills and exercises talked about during the show. Those are all in one easy place: Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash podcast is where you'll find those right there in the show notes- now back to Tamar Elinore,
and you mentioned this in the book- some not blown anything, but you had a phone number where, if someone calls and ass for you or your face, you no name your alias here- undercover identity, yours could carry would say all he's travelling. Can I take a message and EU she would give the same or that you gave her the one that you know to give and you ve got your website and aids. working, and things like that all makes sense, because I dont know how far These sort of terrorist dig right, maybe a couple years deep, but it seems like back stopping could withstand most of even a decent background investigation right like if I assume a foreign intelligence, visit self could probably pole holes in it. Though right I mean I would imagine so your average most trying to buy some tax or what a big splices to take on a plane. he's gonna call and make sure that you have a real office will get some yell
reviews or whatever of your legal, your law firm and that's it yeah, there's that, but they do dig deeper and it's so easy for ninety. Ninety five on the internet, you could pretty much do a full background on someone that any day you know I mean their services everywhere. You could do that, so it has to be able to withstand a deeper dies but yeah the deepest dives, the government services, the intelligence community. I can't imagine anything hold up to that type of scrutiny. That makes us at the end of the day, though, you have government resources right, so you can have as secretary of state business or to forget that says you ve been in business and nineteen seventy nine year, even though you don't exactly exactly what happened, the operations over they just nuke all that stuff? And it's like it's out of operation. Could they can't reuse it now? If it can't it's funny, because it was weird with terminal normally, because they literally just pull the plug. Everything was just got. You know you could google it and you can see that they used to be a website that used to be a company that used to be this. You can tell that there was something there, but it's not
anymore. It is little creepy here. How do you feel like a party you died? You know like hell. Identity that I've been working on for a long time just vanish like nothing, no yeah nothin's, none So now, I'm in camera Mary was very unique because he was tied into so much all the other areas. Is you know every now and then and not enable come up and I'll be like. Oh, I remember that guy, I'm wondering if mother, passing away in nine eleven candidate? Did those things sort of why get laid a little bit into you working in this area to fulfil a similar need or similar vacancy. In that question makes sense, absolutely it does, and yes not ashamed to say it, but I was pretty much big mama's boy now and my mom, you know was my best friend grown up and she meant the world's me in her power and was sudden- and I remember when she was on her debt burden. Her last words to me, were she told me
No you're going to change the world do as much good in this world as you possibly can and war reunited sing it just out with common, but it kind of rang. True, I didn't need someone tell me to be a good person is just the way I was raised by. Like I mentioned earlier, it was the perfect a situation like this. There isn't any other American in my shoes that wouldn't have done what I did if they happen to have the right language. The right background and the right training and that's exactly what happened here. I happen to have such a personal connection to this world that new things that most people in my career in my field didn't know, I had a head start. If you well on the slimy fundamentalists mindset, so I was able to hit the ground running. How did you
yet introduced to the terror networks that you'd later infiltrated. Everyone was different. Some people like an drug worlds we mentioned earlier about talking about in being having good informants. I preferred called box more than most a lot of people like coming in with an informing the public coming in with an informant is you're, always to be married to that individual, so that person has some kind of debt or some kind of baggage, with the bad guys you're not married to that that you're not married throughout baggage, your kind of, for example, in drug terms, if you have a junkie, introduce you to a multiple kilo dealer, you're, always gonna be looked upon as the junkies friend, but if you meet that guy cold in here
he's you and I Mercedes her Jaguar and you develop our relationship with them you're coming in at whatever level you want and asked the same thing with terrorism, I preferred coming cold. I like to do my hope. I cheat okay. I study the shit out of you. I know everything about you before our paths cross and if I feel like their certain buttons, I can push under certain things. I can say or do that will bring you into my world and vice versa. That's what I'd prefer, because then I get the select. where I come in to your life and how and what I represent. So this story about how you get the mark, this guy's name to have you say the mark has to choose you you can adjust, hinted, that right? Not the other way around I can't like put on a hawaiian shirt and sit at a bar in Kabul. Afghanistan be like Sherwood like to meet those Bin Laden fella right, like I have to make it so that you come to me and say hey. We need you workin for us, you know you, I know you're so and so
I've seen you around. You ve got a good head on your shoulders about this. That the other thing we're looking for those skills. Your engineering that interaction, your engineering, people, knowing that you're good at whatever it is that you know that they need things like that right. Absolutely. I think it would be best case scenario, Jordan. If they choose you, that's not always alone that you you, but but if do your homework, and you put yourself in a position that that let put it it this way, let's say you and your wife are out to dinner. And your hang out and you have your life. I don't know about you, but I got I'm, your friends, I don't need any more, so someone were to come up to you in a restaurant. What would hear she need to say to you and your wife for you to want them to be in your lives for you to want them, so I would have to study you very well. Maybe your hockey, maybe your obsessed with a certain tennis player. I don't know, but I would have to have something to offer you that would make you want me to be in your life and that's and that's the mind it. That's essentially the the homework undercover work in the cycle
a warfare that happens prior to getting in front of a subject. This reminds me of how they got L chapel right. There's they followed this accuracy. They knew, he had a crush on who is like visiting with them and stuff like that, and then I think what they like followed: Frickin, Sean pen down there Hildy I meet him. I mean it was just like of all the ways for a guy like that to get caught. This was the dumb like one of the dumbest ways to get caught. I fell like, but think about it. That's human nature are every single person has a thing. I don't care. If you hardier drug dealer. Your gun, runner dirty politician. We all have something everybody has a vice of some sort. Maybe an unhealthy habit, but something that you want to be able to connect to someone else to and a trick in. Undercover work is essentially finding that thread and and you get you find that threat by studying their files or whatever the
nation that you have on this person is only so much a classified files going to reveal about a person's humanity about a person's pattern of life. You have to get eyes. I am again I was about diva thing a mine, but I preferred twenty four seven surveillance on are subjects prior to. If there were problems that it has to being really bad guys and everything in the classified file says these are really I'd guys than those poor. The time and effort into following this bad guy. Tell me what he's doing one is not being a jihadi Tommy, what he's doing when he doesn't think anyone's watching. That's when you get glimpses into a person's soul, when you can get that you could put the classifieds stuff along with the pattern, the life you could start to put together a profile for who that individual is and then you can actually take one of your seventeen aliases in your legends and say well, this guy. I think Samir would be perfect for this guy because we can change it so that he happens to run desperate
Geller Building or he does this thing because we know he walked excellency that's a mathematical equation and then you just kind of pop yourself in online and Starbucks one day say the right thing on the phone to someone else and he or she chooses you. Ok you're doing surveillance or their due and surveillance on this guy, and there like he, spends three hours and night watch in college volleyball online. So weird, then, when you see him at Starbucks, you, like Now, I'm gonna be late. Now want to watch the college volleyball championships who, at the bar now yams gonna, be alone, yeah, we're saunter and then the gag, as you are college volleyball like yeah, what why college volleyball, NEO, no way me to yeah. I love used to watch it Michigan all the time. Is it that you are you gonna watch the thing which ignited score keepers, yeah sure, and then it's like,
suddenly or bodies, but it was his idea to talk to you you're, just telling your wife why you're gonna be late from work, grant bingo. Yet literally that simple and that's the initial draft ass, the hawk as I call once you have that up and then you have somebody's attention. Then you can drop the breadcrumbs that you know he's looking for ok. What, then, do you do to develop the relationship to spend a lot of time, just kind of like hanging out with them? Doing nothing just broke out no in a surly it all depends because no one just stops their lives and start hanging out with someone. They just matter is not realistic. Everything has to fit the mould of life so in it case which she had, for example, tamarind. Nor is a real estate investment guy he's on his way to San Jose. He happens to bump in time and that plane ride. We get to develop relationship? And I also had another advantage when you have a target in this country who happens to speak Arabic and arabic as their first language and English is
bit of a tough sulphur. That gives me another letter, because now that person can speak his native language to me in this western world and feel more comfortable, so that also draws another Hey two brothers from another world are in the same place here together. So there's so many things you can draw on, but you have to live your life journey have to at least you're fake life. I should say I have to go. Look at a real estate problems at the go to meetings have to meet with people, but you can integrate this the visual into your life. There's a part in the buggy where you're talkin about this Bangladeshi scientist who went to IRAN is Michel have right, you're, Tellin, the Americans and the Canadians that he may be radicalized you catch on the fact that the guy's stopped going to the mosque, even though he was religious, and that was weird. It's like war It say about somebody who stopped going to the mosque while they are still religious after they got back from IRAN like it that made sense to me, and after
about it for a while, but I thought that was a really interesting catch yeah when you go to an actual mosque. Your hearing, sermons every Friday and they're, always preaching, is pretty much the same things as far as different verses from the Koran. What it means in your day to day life, but they all have the same overall meaning is peace, submission it's love each other and when a radical individual person has been turned to the dark side for lack of a better word. They don't want to be around that. They don't want to be around these, so called Muslims in their mind, because there they call them enough again or hypocrites to their religion. They hate them and the actual Muslims amazing Muslims they would point them out in a happy they would say you're out of your mind, that's terrorism bastards! That's that, and they don't want to be around that they're almost on the exact opposite spectrum, as too
people could be someone a mainstream muslim starts going to a who, normally as and their so called religious, that's the first thing that would be a major red flag to me with scared. The shit out of me, ok, so the guy to IRAN comes back, stops going to mask the reason that, as a tell is it's like, will wait a minute if you're, not religious, you don't go to church, but if you are super ledges, you don't go to a church. That is not as radical as you because you feel like their failures. That's basically it right correct! Ok, that's exactly what looking to say like what happened to this guy. He was so religious that he went overseas came backstop, go in there sit by the way nobody should be this book, if your hungry and you like middle eastern food, because it's gonna drive you crazy it s got
the food and the book. I really vivid, I could eat middle eastern food everyday and it's always like you must love it because you didn't say we got. Somebody like we got this there's this this. Unless this play came out with the olives Zion that again, like ok, there's a guy like food, it's funny it wasn't until I read the book all the way through, for the first time that I have said the cabin our my co author, I said to him: did we ate a law. Yet in this case and its true, that's the arab way. Does the customs in the Middle EAST is the all sit down? You break bread together. That's when most of the comes I mean when you go to dinner in Egypt. It's an event: it's not a meal, whereas here you can grab something to go and run me in a rock and roll and go wherever you got to go, whereas in the Middle EAST you're going to dinner at seven you're, not getting some one thousand and thirty one thousand one hundred, because it's an event That's when you're with family will you're with friends and there's the turkish coffee. There's the hookah there's a whole list of things that go with it. So that's why you see that a large number,
radical. Now you your march ahead, if that even the right wait, what call them what you call a guy when he's like the target of investigation is the target target those hard it yeah he's a mark until you get from right that make sense. Okay, the target he eats these huge plates of food in the restaurant because it hurrah for or against the rules to waste things. So you can't take this they're just sort of weird tanned though, but like what you can't take food home and there are many euro later. Of course, you can. The reason why I brought that up in the book is what you need to understand is radicalism in its purest sense, isn't just religion, its everything this guy does is today one hundred thousand degrees, and so in the Koran Bible everywhere you see ways not one. That is something we all learn. Your mother
her father taught! You grown up here, clean your plate. Of course I take doggie bags. We all do. We all fall. I order too much whatever, but in his mind, waste not want not means you finish it and you finish it like clean the plate. Literally with your fingers to the point where we were at stake house town Manhattan, eating Lobster- and I said this is the only way I can get this guy to stop licking. The friction plates was the order Alastor if he'd shells and dies and so be it at this point, I just couldn't think of anything else, and he got me. It got me to the point where the surveillance team listening was hysterical because the guy was taken. The waiter was gonna, take the bread and butter away, any grabs it from you and I'm the guy that some crumbs in there he goes to the crumbs seeds, the crumbs like. Ok, then he takes the thought but now and starts scooping it with his fingers and eating butter just part. So my knee jerk reaction at the time
was you know, that's butter, right, yeah and he just at tat got any just literally clean the butter dish- and I said I'd get away with this guy. Is that radicalism, or is he like o c d, but like gas other stuff going on, I mean that's, not gonna want this. We both oath. He d, because I know plenty of men are functional, but this sounds like mental illness. You, who does that that self reckon weird? I have plenty of those cities. Ok, I have some all kinds of crazy tendencies and I'm gonna tell you right now: it's a wart mine and let me explain something she had did have some craziness for lack of a better word, but what attracted me a great deal to this case? What blew my mind about this case was the fact that he was arguably one of the smartest most brilliant men. I've ever been in front of this guy was on the precipice of curing infectious diseases, the shit that he talked about.
His work with science fiction to me, creating micro manage boss to go into a body, remove cancer into their little metal bodies and come out. He was world renowned for his ideas in this world curing and preventing infectious diseases. How could someone so smart, so brilliant, such a gift to humanity, turn into a fucking killer and absolute disgusting peace a garbage overnight, and that's what the deep dive into the terrorist mindset for me became personal. I'm several different levels, not just because of my history not because of my upbringing, but because of who this person was and what he offered to humanity, what aegis essentially drew. I threw it away, I mean he's, never getting out of prison right bout, not now, there's always a chance. Obviously but the Armenia is obviously a flight risk. Any obviously also wanted to kill hundreds of people. So what was it by the way? What was his plan or he had a few plans? What
that is, I think a lot of people are gonna, go to guide and even doing right. We have to sort of explore. He was a brilliant scientists, but also he had planned to kill as many innocent people as it possibly could that's correct? Yes, she wanted to blow up a train from Toronto to New York City the rail train line, and he picked a bridge to do it over that- It is little water is possible, so he can maximize the casualties. He was trained by a kind of senior leadership overseas and brought here to create an operator has terrorism, terror, network and North America. He also had a plan to blow up times square on the ears Eve he had a plan to poison military bases, using shops and He was the epitome of evil. There's a lot of folks that will say- and I didn't look at your court transcripts or anything cuz. I couldn't really get it in my hands on him, but there's a lot of people who say things like there's a lot of talk there
going to do any of this stuff, they can't really do any of this stuff they're just trying to curry favor with their homeboys. You not like guys talk tough, like yeah man, I'm going to go! Do this and I'm going to do that. It's like gangster talk, but how do you separate that from these guys are for real they're gonna. Do this like they have taken steps to do this it on ass, a great question, and I very much appreciate the way you asked it because other people in the past I have just accused the FBI and law enforcement of court on core entrapping these terrorist threat. It's been said, the numerous places, sometimes in my inner circles. I will say this much. That obviously wasn't the case. Here any case that I was involved in in the people that I know worked him. It wasn't case and here's why what I like to do is a little trick called I nicknamed it the Christian Burial speech, because when you get on the stand, if this eventually goes to trial The last thing in the world you want a jury hearing is the most jihadi crazy person.
the undercover agent, ok, that this does not bode well, doesn't sound well you're, the guy radicalizing, the target that some trial. What you want is the target to lead the plots you want the target it. all come from him, you don't want to be the one adding to it and you could be the one fuelling the fire. You, the one one engaged in it with him. However, what my christian burial speeches I nickname in the book is, all is said and done, and I wholeheartedly believed the case is wrapped up in a bow and this guy's gonna get arrested for attempted murder. I try to back out I try to show that I'm not ready to kill innocent women and children, and I see- and I try to placate to their here- side. Are you sure that might be another way? Maybe we can just post a video? Maybe we could do something
else. Do we really want to kill women and children and you'd be surprised? It's got a hundred percent success rate, the venom that comes out of their mouths at that moment in time therein and their fear that there now losing me as a partner in this cry highlights whose idea is and why I see you're almost trying to talk them out of it and they like. No here's. Why we're gonna? Do it? Here's our plan, don't be a wimp. do it with us. You dont back out now. So that shows like this is a hundred their idea. I came immersion. Do this now come on now this You got here either. You know you're out Tamar Red, exactly that's exactly what you have to give them an hour. You can't be the bully in this situation. You have to give them an opportunity. Is to walk away from it. They actually went to the rail bridge when you went with them right to inspect the tracks. I did yes, yes, so that's gotta be kind of a
a bit of a smoking gun right when it's like well, here's footage of them could see. I saw the video sixty minutes were there. you- and there are literally walking on these train tracks and insight. Well, what was there are when in Coronel words hiking, I mean how do they sort of try to defend some of this stuff or should have had absolutely no defense? He just said that you wholeheartedly didn't even recognize the court system they had what was called a friend like an offence to turn that was a friend to the court, basically to just in case. He wanted to raise some sort of defence, but for all intents and purposes he sat it out gestures? Defense was a little different. Ok, he was basically saying he was a kind man trying to get money off of tomorrow, and I know that he was rich and everything, but we were able to out of the water using his own words against them. These guys are pretty they're, pretty scary. Vena you describe in the box plans and such like these there so angry that I almost feel bad for them. You know like live,
your whole life. That angry is it's gotta, be you psychology, equally over and over again, like everything they said, was how much Hate America, Americans, it's like they couldn't. Could these guys even have normal conversations today even do that now there are times when you'll see just smoke and mirrors. You know, you'll see a lot of passion between rats, Saxon, Yankee Sands Giants and eagles fans. You know you understand a passion Mary, but for them most part. No one's gonna put an idea in the others car. Ok, we cannot know where the line is the problem. Is they had this a heightened level of passion and they feel that their purpose? In this light, this particular life is to overcome the burdens of the west that the West is putting on that and that burden, if you think of it as a next life sort of thing as a whole new caviar to it, and they feel that their oppressed and they feel that they can't fight, and they feel that they're, the ones
have to take a stand and they won't die for a cause and that's what makes some dangerous. So a lot of these guys are recruited when they go overseas to Afghanistan to fight, and then it seems like sometimes their turned back to him got a candidate to attack over here. Instead, they want to go and carry on fallen. Theory. I know I know or Afghanistan I hold on hold on hold on, go back and live in Toronto and just wait for instructions tat a lot of times that does happen. Sometimes their home grown ISIS was the petrol and child about Qaeda. If you were here the teenagers that new everything right, so what did they do? They took radicalizing to all new level, they didn't online, they screamed it and they just said. Okay, if you're alone, sitting in your mother's basement bomb. Here you go design it you, grab machete, go kill a cop, go kill. This person go, do this and you say one button you're on your way in your part of the team. They found a very unique way using so
your media and the internet to rack lies people who were susceptible who had those vulnerable at ease, whereas our Qaeda was much more thank about it, they took their time and they recruited, and they vantage you so two different born to different groups, but at the end of the day, the same individual person. I found it interesting that groups like Hamas Al Qaeda ices. They compete for recruits. They compete money and there's a lot of differences like these. You call these jihadi bitch
and like a lot of guys, always bickering and in fighting, even amongst themselves with the groups, are doing it to right. That's exactly right, because every single group feels that there's something that's more important to them, whereas in out in Hamas, is all about removing Israel from the Middle EAST and giving Palestine it state, whereas archives all about in Yemen, occurred in Europe. A radiant peninsula is focused on the Americans and the west and the things that they're doing in the Middle EAST. So each group has its own little thing, so they all interpret the Koran differently. They all misinterpret. I should the Koran differently and they all use different, had deeds and passages from the Koran to actually further their own political agendas. So, of course, there's gonna be in fighting, because everyone has a different role:
You mentioned how dangerous and scary these american jihadi types are. What keeps you up at night. Generally speaking when it comes to these Ghana guys, I still think that Al Qaeda is the sleeping giant. More than anything, obviously the lone wolf. You you'll see them all the time that people who act out who were on? U s soil scares me like it, should guarantee everyone else, but sleep ourselves. As our time out. the Al Qaeda playbook that I was able to get an inside looked out over the years scares me more than anything. Why what's different about that like your run of the mill ISIS Bullshit, the long game, Jordan, they play the longing, ok and their smart, their cunning and their resourceful, whereas I mentioned before ISIS is that petrol team? That knows everything him. Ok, there is the educated grandfather who's been there done that and
no everything. So what sort of a difference in their in their game plan you know, ices is like you, go get a machete, kill random people to cause news and get us in the media. What is our doing different. Extremist honestly, I feel, like I haven't, heard about a queue for a long time in everyone thinks there just kind of done yeah We have heard about anything with terrorism for a long time and that's a good thing. I'm not try. scare. Anyone on that saying that I know of anything. Obviously, that's not what all what I'm saying, of course you asked me personally was gives me the most is our kind simply because of Let me put it to you this way. There ammo is exactly how nine slash eleven punched us in the face. We recovered, We understand our enemy much better today than we have in the past, and I think we're more prepared than we ever have been. I think our intelligence commute
in our law. Enforcement is much more educated in the world of counter terrorism, but are biggest enemy our biggest threat down. The road I believe wholeheartedly is AL because of their capabilities. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Tamar Morrell Nori, we'll be right back and now for the rest of my country. Nation with Tom R L nursery What are your undercover rituals? You kind of mention is right. You shower off the identity of what you shall. Of your own identity, and you get dressed in your cover clothing, What else is there? You can have this ritual of transforming into town Maryland, where your yeah, I know it's a little corner. And I'll, be the first to admit it is I get it. They make sense. Baseball players, kick their cleats off right, basketball, players, a relation their shoes, the air is a thing I know is just. It became thing when the ad some early on success. When I started to long term, the cover work
in the morning when I non travelling the next day, let's say for this case: it's tamarind Laurie. I got a bad as much identity. I wake up in the morning as my true identity. Obviously in them soon as I got a shower. I have everything laid out. I mean my closet looks like a serial killers. Ok, because there's literally like multiple personality disorder going on in their clothes and outfits for different situations and different, Ellie says that I have so that morning, I'll shower I'll put on time is closed. Slightest watch on his shoes. I drive his car. And the second I leave the house. I don't have any phones or delegations other than terrors, and when I meet people and I go to the beach I sit on it- You I go over every single thing in his legit, I go over mothers maiden name. Every identify you could think of business phone numbers cell numbers, home addresses properties, you name it once. I feel,
like I have it all kind of right there on the tip of my tongue. In the front of my brain that I jump in my car and I get to the airport, and I don't I don't look back until I come home, that's that's a lot of pressure hurry you have to forget about who you really are and just get all that stuff out. There is. The last thing you want to do is make some sort of slip up under pressure yet- and I realized I told people I tell my young under covers coming up right now. Is the minute you're, not scared, or the minute you're not over prepared is the minute that you need to walk away from this job, and I realise that too late, thankfully, without getting hurt in my drug career, I was doing under cover narcotics for almost twelve years and towards the end I was getting a little bit more flippant. I took a lot more chances shortcuts things of that nature. Where it put me in a position I felt like I could at ease
We got hurt or hurt the investigation, so my big thing is being over. Prepared is a good thing until you dont you ve got a rule as well, never pretend to know someone or something if you don't actually know it, because it by you in the ass give an example of that. That seems like a really good rule, obviously right absolutely perfect. Example. On the first week I met she had we were going to a restaurant. And I went out of my way to say I didn't know the area, and I was only there once which was true in San Francisco. So I said, I know San Francisco, but I don't know San Jose when we found the one restaurant. If I pretended to know that restaurant that would have bit me in the ass, because there was a are in there there was a ballet dancers. There was all kinds of everything wrong that you're trying to bring a jihadi too, and if I pretended to know that place that kind of whatever blown up in my face. I basically said I don't know a friend of mine told me this is a good spot and thank you.
I did because that's what I was able to hang my hat on how appalled I was that allow restaurant had alcohol and belly dancing right, okay, cuz if you'd said hey, I know this place well and then you show up and he's like so either you lied about knowing this place or you come to a place that is totally not cool that has booze and woman show self off so which one is like our you, a liar or just a really bad muslim rate, which one is it that's exactly right and the most important thing in doing undercover work specially long term under work, the least a man, a wise that you can make the better. It is for you because they do compound and they do become an issue. If you remember your legend, you stay in your outline. That's it anything
in those boundaries you gonna lie about. Obviously bit the lie is real anything outside those boundaries that you don't have to lie. You have you ever been the Houston. Have you ever been to this? Have you ever been in jail him? There's no reason why now I had no, I dont know that place. Have you ever heard of this guy? You know we do that conversation, don't I've yeah. I heard him now. You haven't ok, because no one heard him. The point is: there's no reason to love ever when you're undercover pass past, because you already doing so much lying that any other lie could blow everything else up. If that sense, yeah that does excellence right, you wouldn't want to say. Oh yeah, I've been Disneyland when I was a kid and I didn't you grow up in IRAN and psycho crap. We lied about that raises all these things. He just start cascading down, of course like if they catch you and something that seems small, they might see what about they made start testing your right and then, if you surf failing test after tat by all these little things, you start to really. their trust, which I can imagine,
you in some pretty tough spots. That's all ingratiating yourself to your subject, especially early on, is you only task as an undercover officer? If you get caught in the lie that bullet down ranging sailing you'll, never ever be able to recover. You already find yourself in some precarious situations, man like getting into a meeting with a bunch of radicals or terrorist in a basement, whereas no one can hear you? No one can see you. I mention that at the top of the show, but that was a real thing that you did and then a lot of these guys they have their own countersurveillance methods like what was one walking in the middle of the road, so that no one can over here your conversations, so these guys are not just some is that our watching too many movies, whose training them to do this out Imagine a lot of it for those that don't go overseas has to be found on line can hook. I'm sure you googled trade craft and any thing you could figure out, probably the ins and outs of how to do character
how to play a violin pretty much anything you could find online for these wannabes, but the guys, the real guys that should have that one overseas to train their train, because as law enforcement were the worst enemy. We gave everyone our playbook everyone's gotta peek at it and is called discovery and the courts anything that we figure out and we do to capture a bad guy. It's revealed in the court's obviously through discovering when it goes to trial and saw himself, so they have our people. Can they share and they talk about it. There is a manifest those in the jail talking about how to spot an undercover officer because geyser learning from their mistakes and they share that knowledge, but as far as Al Qaeda ICES and all the terrorist groups, if you're overseas and training cap, all this methodology is beaten. Where are those training to get like Pakistan or IRAN or Afghanistan? Priority above read all the above Theirs
when you go and visit this palestinian jihadi in Toronto, when you mentioned that in the book that already prayed without you guys, and usually you pray in a group. If you can- and I thought that was kind of interesting like you thought it was weird that he didn't wait for you, but then it that he was testing you and watching you- and you mentioned book in really say what this was. What you said there are tells in the way that you pray if your act for religious, like some jihadi, are so what are the tells like where the different types of prayer for jihadism, like regular Muslims, is not really
different types of prayers. It's your mannerisms in your movements and that certain ways that you are taking place just infer that you're more religious, the best way to explain that would be to be a most from. You have to follow the Koran and to be a good Muslim. You have the file the Koran and had deeds and had these are basically the ways the profit. So when you have someone who is much more devout for lack of a better word, they're gonna do things very specifically. So when you're praying and you put your head down and your hands are down and if your fingers are spread apart. Ok, that's what a mainstream was someone do, whereas someone who's a little bit more,
about with closed his fingers not crossed his legs when he sits up, because the prophet never did that. If that makes sense, so there are certain mannerisms, not necessarily what you're saying it's, how you're saying how you're doing it and your body language, and I knew that because those who are called unquote more devout do things a certain way and those who are more mainstream are a little bit more lax. If that helps. You explained that it does yeah. Does it's interesting study? You knew that he was watching you, so you did you change the mannerisms that you used to pray when you are under cover, of course, obviously Even one amount recover and on praying it's I'm always praying. Is myself? Ok, animal praying ironically enough forgot to give strength to defeat. the animals that are on either side of me, but at the end of the day I do Remember that I'm in role and I'm one of them at that point in time. So I have to play the role when you're in these groups. I assume you, Sir, to like some of these gases
a lot of them. Are horrible people beyond redemption, but some of them seem like they just have their minds poisoned by other radicals in other hanging out with their brother, their cousin of their uncle and, like maybe they're, not really in there just in because they are surrounded by a do. You think about that at all. Yet the joke when I was working drugs with my narco squad is falling in love with another target. That was the judge that I fell in love with my targets, and it wasn't about that. I was the only person who got to see the human side of them. If I would have put on beast paper the subject you had six felony convictions, one for murder, weapons answers and multiple drug convictions, along with the fact that he had guns and violence, and he was the leader this and you never met the guy. You probably think he was fatal honour right near regardless of what you know or what you hear, but when you get to know these people on a personal level on a human level, you
them as the human side. It says that a matter of form love of these peoples just a matter of seeing their humanity and understanding that what they're doing there about the pay for and they should pay for it, but I always saw my subjects in the much different light. Did you about shehab and any other targets I had it do test them at all. the guy's a have like no possibility of redemption, or are you making that determination at all? During your work yeah I mean there's
fine line, Jordan between collecting the elements of the crime and making a case prosecutor yonder, and then you know worrying about someone soul for there's only so much. I can do, however, when there is a lot of time, sometimes when they cases essentially wrapped up. I mean early on within the first month of this investigation, getting kicked into high gear believers, temper of two thousand and eleven where gesture and she had were under arrest. They just didn't know it yet so the case was done, it was over, but we had other opportunities, other things that we needed to uncover the investigation. So you do spend time with them and these individual, so you want to pick up their bread, You want to see what it is. What else is there? Why did they become like that? So I do go out of my way to dig a little deeper because I do have the time to when the case is wrapped up
I know you almost lost your cool and blue. Your cover tell me about that story. Cuz, that's obviously you're not supposed to do that that's the one job and it's not to do it right dear. I guess I keep saying the first rule of undercover work yet limited on the absolute first rule Undercover work is not blow your cup yeah mind. You were almost a year into this investigation and she had, on the heels of two straight weeks, just ranting in reading and talking about plots to kill Americans and every possible way. I think we covered poisoning reservoirs and water systems bombs, killing them snipers just so much anger and hatred towards the west that I'm pretty much had my fill this evening. I think it was just one of those nights. I was dropping him, ah
right when he revealed to me. He wanted to go over called operation Happy New year, the plot to put multiple bombs in times square for the following new year's eve course. Everyone listening to our conversation was excited about the fact that this guy was about to reveal his plans, so we're going up to his apartment, and it was right next to ground zero, whose it a night in december- and he put his arm around me and looked up to where the towers were and the construction of the new World Trade Center, and he said Tamara, this town needs another nine slash eleven and we're going to give it to him. It threw me off I've heard him say so much horrible things for so long that you think at that moment in time I could have just accepted it and got up and did my job, but I couldn't I imagine
killing him right there, and then I imagine stabbing them in the eye with the pen I had my pocket and leaving him for dead. There was so much anger that I have and the Arab and me was coming out towards him, and I didn't want that to be the focus and there was no way I was walking up those stairs with him. So I asked we shot him. I didn't even realize I did this till sought later. I shoved them away from me and I pretended there have food poisoning or not feel well, and I just got away from him and then, of course, the Eu S turn him. Everyone was not. U thrilled that. I just walked away from a potential plot to commit terrorist act on the: U S, soil, but I got it the next day I became a profession again. I just needed a knight to recover from it, but we all have our limits. We are human beings. All younger covers doing this. The matter what's happening, there's only so much death. Falcon take later on when you lure them to New York for the arrest. I gotta say God
pretty rich and ironic when you get him on tape, idolizing, Osama Bin Laden and, I think, hey man. You know what about this in this and he goes. Don't worry the? U S, government can never outsmart me. I got Are you nervous at all there's a part of me that was just like. I would have to look down on the ground and be like yeah you're, so smart and governments never gonna, find you buddy, like you, just stay nowadays and military never going to catch me it's funny, because we were struggling at that point with the one subject, a kind of one out on a limb. I knew it was almost a bit of a hail Mary, but I I freaked out on purpose. I flip the script. I had two because, if I play created that conversation I just went along with an oh brother, tell me what you're talking about whether you me and I king defensive in any way shape or form a shine, a light on me and at that moment he's a fucking stranger in my country, ok and
talking about killing everyone in this country time out. I'm gonna put the script on him. I stood up. I lost my shit I pretended to be because I was worried about my company I'm supposed to be, crazy jihadis multimillionaire who supporting terrorism, oversee and in the United States and this fricking guy. I do him However, I give him an olive branch and he brings the item I world I made it like. I misunderstood what he was saying and my reaction and mice equity glasses on a hundred dollar bill on the table meeting him in the city by himself, New York City, you didn't know, he's been there for three days and slept okay. One of two things is going to happen. I do is going to say screw this guy, I'm done with him. I think he's got meant, for he was going to make it right by me and he was going to to me that he was loyal to me, and that was my only playing. Thankfully it worked out. Oh, I see you deliberately miss
terminated the comment, the? U S, government or never catch on me, you'd deliberately misinterpreted. That is like him threatening you so that he would come that can be like none are now what I meant was and then explain everything yet liberally interpreted as him like what he was actually doing was. He was basically asking if I work for the government- or this was part of some elaborate scheme, and I interpret it as I made him believe I interpret it as him, potentially working for the government or bringing heat to my company. Being an informant or by being watched by the FBI either way, I don't want anything to do with him and he now need to prove himself to me. You're tricky guy very tricky, further We need that right. I mean that it makes sense. I can see how well that would work, and I can definitely see that working on pretty much anyone right like you, another crucial another? Oh here's! What I meant man Zalm talking about music, say that latter for the tape
Put that in writing. You know it's a! I wonder, though, you good luck. These guys are prison right, you're, Putnam away for a long time is there any part of either can separate the terrorist from the man in your head at all right. This there's like this nerdy scientist, who wanted to cure infectious disease verses. This crazy. on a medalist would be murder. You know sort of touch on that earlier in the show, if you could separate them at all, but I'm wondering why is there any sort of part? That's like well, here's this night. guy that finishes all his food and, like you know, says all these nice things, but also he's either eighty percent of home? Is this like jihadi psychopath yeah? An absolutely first down and having a conversation I could do and of course I can separate- and I can say what a shame excellency, but at the end of the day, there's no saving someone who has these beliefs does no saving someone who's gone to this radical cited ass because they're gone already Jordan. There is no savings individuals. Their only answer to life is today,
lives and when someone he reaches that conclusion, the matter whether its terrorism or any other criminal enterprise there's no saving that endeavour. So no matter how nice or their humanity, you may have been interested in it's a shame, but they can never be free. So how do we do feats radical Islam? Is it possible, what's our strategy here besides, Heaven of temporal newer is thrown a mile in prison I wholeheartedly believe, and I ask that the first thing I asked to recruits in police academy teaching them terrorism indicators, as the first question to my lesson is: how do we defeat anatomy, whose willing to die for cars and in all the years I ve been doing it. I've never gotten. The right answer from the answer is simple: its education, its understanding, your enemy, I mean not taken The sun's is the art of war or all the stuff that I love. The truth of the matter is, you have to understand your enemy when you
understand your enemy in you understand their motivations. You don't understand that every brown guy with a coffee isn't a terrorist. You now know the culture. You know the religion when I first start but the FBI. We were running gunning because people would see a prayer rug and think that guy's terrorists and things change quickly. Americans now are more educated. They understand the difference between the radical mindset and a true tenets of the religion, at least to an extent that was the purpose of american radical. So if we are more educated and can see the fundamental differences between these radicals along with the true tenets of their religion, they're not gonna, get to live amongst us anymore. They can, hide amongst us anymore, they'll never be able to feed us in our homeland. Ever again till it sounds like in many ways the best defence also inclusion right. If we let in a bunch of good Muslim
origins or future Americans, then there's always gonna be somebody who can help us call it out two feet: radical islamic terrorists, one of the reasons it was an interesting episode is because I think it I've a lot of us that it's not like a bunch of I had a blonde aired white dude, Scutcheon, islamic fundamentalists in sleep yourselves right. It scares that look like you not that I know what you look like a nobody does that's why you're big picture here, but I assume you blend in with the people that Europe targeting I do. I saw him. I must Arab, as you get looking obvious when there is no denying what I look like when I'm on target, especially, I think I've cleaned up a little bit since then. I was just
when I was working undercover. I wouldn't want to sit next to me on a plane, and I understand that because that was the look I was going for. I wanted to put that kind of fear in people's heads during that time. But, yes, the answer is absolutely inclusion and the answer is absolutely all of us together as Americans, we all have something or someone that makes us unique and different, and that's with me Americans and that's what makes a special further Turnin american radical to turn your book into what a movie or a tv series what's going on with Gunnar there's a movie deal in place nice is it kind a bummer, though, that, like you're, fake personality, that not a real person is gonna get famous in you're, just gonna. U, here still have to be revised. may it I was. I shudder. Banners are you around the world they tried. I now listen? I never did any of this to be famous and I look forward to seeing this become a movie
cause, I think, it'll draw more attention to the story and ethics and important story, and I did it an alias because I didn't need notoriety. I don't need anybody to know who I am. What matters is that Americans are better armed with this knowledge, because this case happened to be mainly the decline fine termer. Thank you so much for your time delay. Man really appreciate that and your service to the country. I think this is a fascinating story and I'm looking forward to the movie thanks Jordan. I appreciate it very much regulations on your success, big fan of the Show- and I appreciate your item- yeah yeah. No, I got thought on this episode, but before I get into that, here's a preview of my conversation with Bill nigh about why anti vaccination activists only endangering themselves and their crusade against the establishment. Why climate? It is real and a real threat, and what bill thinks is even more important for the future humanity than Elon Musk drive a car, nice Mars, here's a quick, listen,
it is fascinating, the energy will have the haters have to hate, but meanwhile the climate is changing, even if you re in my anger towards the things that you say is not positively affecting the climate. No really I gotta change strategies, man. The reason I want you to go back is really not that I care about you made me me me because
you're on vaccinated. You are incubator. Mutating viruses containing mercury can fight with conventional antibiotics. Denying discoveries me diligence on this over the last three centuries objectively wrong about hey. If Europe bladder, Arthur you're out there go to the edge and take a picture, is central to go out there the edge day, you think you'll find that your living on a big ball, you can travel and direction, that's impossible. How could be something that word because it's a ball I claim is if you're always curious worlds, always exciting, and today you will learn and vague idea behind that. Everybody knows something you don't. curiosity, just want to get
excited about this process and we are living at a time. It is very reasonable that we will discover wife, one another world something alive on Mars. Is it like or is it whole other thing to hear more about I bill Nigh, devotes his life to education, but has no children of his own how to deal with cognitive dissonance. The two things always happen when we go exploring check out episode. Three six, six of the Jordan Harbinger show. I love this story or the set of store because there's a lot of sort of Robert shall Dini influence in psychological principles at work, making things the targets idea, so they won't resisted or question it as much. A lot of reports, building like Jack Schaefer taught us here on the show is well really interesting, really a great use of psychology to keep us all safety also interesting. He told me this offline, how he sizes upper room when he surrounded by terrorists, and he is
ever sure. If he's been made, his covers still blown right. He knows where the exits are. He looks for all the potential weapons. He said you get older, you always go for the young ones first, so if you ve gotta fight your way out, you go for the young ones first, which now that I'm forty one makes a hell of a lot of sense right. You can, or you want to go with the guys at the most energy while you're still in one piece and while you have the element of surprise. So, if you ever was stuck in a basement, and there's a bunch of people that are probably gonna. Take your head off, go for the young ones. First, I don't know how practical that is. Hopefully you never have to use it. He also told me he said I'm safer undercover. Then you are crossing the street in New York City and then, of course, the coffee at here is as long as my legend holds up as long as my cover hold, I'm not sure I'm gutsy enough to take that risk. Thank goodness heroes actually are, I think, that's a big caveat want your covers gone. You are certainly not safe and that's why he's pixelate it and we ve distorted some of his voice details here on the show is well big. Thank you to
Morel nursery. His book is called American radical inside the world of an undercover muslim FBI agent. That will be linked in the shown us as it always is. If you do by books from our guest, please use or what links when you buy the book? It does help support the show worksheets for the episodes are in the show. Nuts transcripts are in there there's a video of this interview. Go up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan, harbinger dot com, Slash Youtube. We also have a clip channel with cuts that don't make it to the show. Highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else, Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash clips is where you can find that at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or put me on Linkedin. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems, software and tiny habits over at our six minute networking course. The courses free Jordan, Harbinger Dotcom, slash courses where you'll find it dig that well before you get thirsty most of the guests on a show. They subscribe to the course and contribute to the course come join us you'll, be in smart company where you belong. The show is created in association with podcast
My team is generally been Jason, Sanderson Robert Fergit million Campo, Ian bared, Josh, Ballard and Gabriel MA's raw. He remember we rise by lifting others, the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful interesting. If you know somebody who is interested in this sort of under cover jihadi terrorist infiltration law enforcement, stuff go ahead and share this episode with him. I hope you find something great in every episode of the show. Please share the show with those you care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what user on the show, so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-02.