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Welcome to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have endeavoured conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts entrepreneurs, spies psychology. Even the occasional north korean defector, billionaire investor or tech mobile, each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice you can use to the deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical. If you're new to the Show- or you want to tell you about the showing you're not quite sure how to get em zip their toes and we ve got episode. Starter pacts, which are collections of your favorite episodes organised by popular topics that are held new listeners, get a taste of everything, We do here on the show just visit Jordan. ensure dot com slashed start to get started or tell somebody else get started with us. And, of course, I always appreciate that today on the shelf,

My friend your me part now I know she's a little controversial lot of you have written to me about her. I realise that there is some differing opinions out there about her, but her story is no matter which way you look at it. Absolutely in But now I wanted to do a different kind of show here with you and me part, because our story is wild escaping North Korea we done, shows like this before its in her book to channel and other interviews have really cover battleground already I wanted to break some new ground with her, so we go deep on all things: North Korea. That's why it's a two parter! You know, I'm obsessed with that place been there a bunch of times a lot of I wanted to get her stories in her thoughts on a lot of cultural stuff in the proper way and the regime and escape pizza, entail. I know you're gonna enjoy it and if you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers and creators every single week, it's because of my network, I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at Jordan.

Bonjour, dotcom, slash course. By the way. Most of you guess you here on the show, subscribed to the course contributed a course to come. Join us you'll be smart company where you belong now. Here's young me park. Let's start with a bit about, how kind of crazy North Korea is because most people have heard of it, people who ve seen. heard you another shows no a little bit about it, but I think it's really hard Imagine a country that doesn't have food Americans think poor countries are like,

Mexico or southern state that the roads are really bad. You know they dont understand sort of deprivation, endeavoured to North Korea yeah. I think it's the only place them modern. It hasn't patched their lifestyle like in the fifteen or sixteen century in the dark. As you can imagine you don't happen, I hear of technology, you have electricity aiming can have transportation. Ninety seventy percent nor scrambles are not paved Dorani paved arose in Congo in the captain. I never even see the crossword. Sweden have cars here in our so Frances thus forcing people to have an ox cart of high school. I feel really reach in the city, while so I've seen cars and North Korea, because I went there a few times for journalism purposes and no sort of tour purposes, which is a whole other question of like the ethics of giving money a horrible regime, and we can go down that road later, but the amount,

Cars you see in all of North Korea is like the amount of cars in a normal, suburban neighbourhood and United States version. You were only going through the highways that one interest canker yeah two ones, are that the energy from CAN. Now I hear We did go to the country a little bit of really is what it's hard to say, because we didn't really know We would do things like once when we were there than it was during this like one hundred years celebration, that was probably twenty thirteen or something out of the room were closed because for whatever reason, probably they were flooded mending and we went to the king. Free and what we would do as if we saw something interesting, a bunch of us. It's me I have to go to the bathroom or I feel sick in the bus would stop it. We all get out and use the bathroom on the side. well, but we would really be looking around ya. Gotta get tactic that was pretty good. Definitely caught on after awhile guys want to see something just ask, but no photos and we're not

that is my data. So we saw some country houses where the doors are like, probably up to my nose and you have to duck to get in because the houses a hundred years old or whatever I gimme a nurse her in the countryside, had the windows governing those seeking to his person. My plastic bags on it it's freezing cold winter. I am you think about the year. Is not a whole lot of glass. So did you grow up than in the country now is causing us city could his hand. It is one of the bigger citizen and urges the border town to nurse her those everything they could to pull up the show on the border. So, as other countries don't judge them, but even that is like unheard of life standard of living, and I was superb. In the meantime later, when my father got arrested the idea of putting on a show for the world, what you're saying is, it makes a lot of sense from

and down in China. You look over there. I think the two men river you see like affair This will and colorful houses, but its very clear when you use zoom lenses hammers that their rusted and they haven't been used in ever yet they have as other village Indians to him, who is a shelf, feels like ghosts. Village, her nobody's insiders, life, never comma, the Penman John, the Germans are here, there's a village chairs or North Korea does really could I, showing I mean pretending to manipulate the narrative. Pyongyang is also like that, the stores they put all the products in the front window. But then, if you notice after a while, it's always the same product and it's always one in each after you see like fifty stores within one bottle of So do you always the same? You kind of figure out that nobody's actually guy

anything not only get out for the buying of stores in general or even in coming out of this funny. When there's a bus, so bright foreign tourists passing by then they let that pound note two hours before the current than I electricity in? I give them a call in the past. I get turned out. I electricity! That's why and there I should it before you ask com. I was in paying out sometime into my father. They call it self reliant, so they ask us to buy the paints and gold paint arose and maintain our thing for free for the region. that day, how you see a wow? That's all the panes. Everything is just like people do with their own money. That is so that's the Jew traveller

if the right I've rely yeah like we don't need anyone's help, we can do it all on our own. We can but like that slavery. This time North Korea just had emerged parade in order to be participating parade they demanded is older than you have this practice more than ninety six month of a year without getting paid, they dont feature and you in pay for you on uniform my shoes and everything is egg beyond exploitation right, especially because it's not like you're getting you're busy, trying to literally find food in Europe. As you mentioned in your book, your finding bark and cooking insects survive and the light by the way focus on really good, and this marching banned or whenever you like. Are you kidding me right now, but it is not in our thoughts we can like saying ought to write and that's how they became. I got a mighty got it's funny. I should mention that

asian leaders, being God when I on one of the trips one of the women that I was with, she brought her baby. They were from like Denmark or something it was a toddler, probably three years old, and she pointed to a big picture. Of course, there's a huge photos or paintings of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong IL on building, and he said, is that mommy is that God, because the pro and a works at such a deep level that even this toddler was like. Oh, that person must be really important because everywhere must have got. The mother was like no. But I also don't say anything because could get at this is like tread lightly yeah then I guess screw you? We don't have other worth. I summoned regarding their monuments as thatched of Kim's, sorry that had to be you're sale, I look at, they show look at there's, none of that everyone knew the word advertisements got out at some, and I wonder what other work has meant was. He knows who did under that? What do you think

The commercialism in the west in the United States, where we have ads on like this podcast, has adds there's ads on the bus that you ride. There's ads on the outside of the bus. There's adds that pop. when you're using an app it's a bit, much right while the rather living conditions ads and freedom in food versus no ads and yeah. Ok, fire is just wonder if its jarring when for a place where you'd never seen an advertisement being bombarded with it constantly now mean that everything has a cost in trade off and nothing is free and people. The problem now in the west to allow people think there's things are frequent. Nothing is free and growing you're gone spot. A fire package to you watch free videos. Why do you want your song payment, look for so seeing as I, of course you have to watch budding. Was you understand that you're gonna stop complaining and I think one cell, understood as a goal can sense way

thinking in North Korea. The biggest problem is that everything seems like everything is free free. I scare fridge kitchen and turns out. Nothing is free. You hear that. certainly the case I saw hospital when I was there just four and it was grin, it was grows, and that was the hospital they were willing to show us. Imagine what the hospital that everyone goes to looks like there was no patients there, so you knew that was like for show only equipment from aid is stains on things no bustle, you know in a hospital here, it's busy hair was like they do. opened it, so we could look in there and there was probably nobody even working in there. I mean that country, where even hastening the one of the major cities in the house bitter they ask us to bring us our meters, if you cannot for the needle. While we are very poor to use one needle to inject everybody- and we don't have a shred drops to use a beer bottle from the trash and that used as a drug

there's like an ivy ivy, giving an ivy on the beer from an empty bottle yeah an hour, so people dont have bad. We got half the sign internal pattern, any of that. So you just revolve your clothes or any anything. You can find an admission that you don't believe. That's how we live. Free healthcare looks like right and in the preparations in North Korea didn't give any sticky. I win over the wire pending Sudan, as data and North Korea is very kind. To have a surgery out painkiller. Oh my gosh, Sir, this is, I was free healthcare, Doesn t now. Ok, so you ve had a child here in the United States. Was the appendix surgery, more pain, than giving birth. Young knight has to be right. Those, and I think they gave me some painkiller. My mom drive them, but it was very weak one. It was not

chronic anastasia for surgery. You tell your headache medicines. So, like somebody like bad horrible renown, thinking about it, it is kind of fine tuning. Firstly, you go sounding like their it wasn't really tough everything you you'd. If the page too much you lose your cautious and combat lucid and come back in our interests by like in North Korea. That's why they use Kristen an opium as occurred the medicine as a coordinator, does it work, it does have to be right and I haven't, but all my friends became drug at tell really that's how the regime makes money ratings are the Messiah news to Syria, IRAN other countries, and they say their people, and one of them is selling those trucks Chris math and not have you seen the mall yeah yeah, so he was on Show is. Why are we here

really, like a crazy brave guy survey, for people haven't seen that its Alice, the episode in the show notes, but this guy, when under cover walking with north korean arms dealers in China, in other countries about selling drugs missiles and things like that to countries like Syria IRAN or the Middle eastern countries. They made me says from North Korea near the eyes how they generate hard currency for the regime. So a lot of people Probably dont really understand why there is no food right. It's like you have some farm land. How can there be no food? What about food aid

I was there a famine, it's complicated, but can you take us through why that might be the case because it wasn't always the case there that there was no food ran so sixty seventy. There are some people dying of starvation, but not unlike millions, the millions of that began in the nineties from starvation. That's when I was born after serving and collapsed said North Korea, the natures, collective collectivism right. You do not want anything, there's, no private property, it socialist countries such as Paradise, so anybody can now on anything, therefore and pay. land, is owned by the regime to win your farm in a collective farm after the harvest. Derision takes entire crop away from you and they supposed to give you the public ration role, but they don't give you so you worked in the farm and per year right I mean that's like that. Do a good job replacement takes the harvests away then resumed on, gives your food and then toward her. You be self reliant.

Fine, do you always to survive by free trade is illegal, so they send. You preside carrier and then would in a fisheries, because you mean came down your sad and in the that is to the socialism and their less people. So he was thinking, watches hell a bunch of people and then socialism work better and our saw it, and then people when they are starving, why you are not going to thinking about the meaning of life right, but like freedom. If we are studying why now rag in North Korea? how they live, caused that if you eat breakfast, you worry about lunch. If you make it to dinner ok, maybe one more day here. How do I save up tomorrow? Every causes? Second, you think about your survive and finding food, so people s occupied, and that's why the better for the regime to having a population does constitute a starving. Like a holler games, you see exactly hamburger exactly it's keeping born the back foot kind of one of the times that I was there there

were no students anywhere and then, when we went on a bus trip to one side or wherever we were going, you could see the fields were full of people, whereas the last time I was that there were no people in our guide sort of told us in confidence that all of the people in the fields where the college students, because they have to leave school and go hardy. Yeah yeah, the mobilization, Yemen, even seven years old, have to stop work San Euro. We don't have the world for minors? We have heard of evolution is any less revolutionary. even when your kids, like five years old, you need to work in the fire and the railways saw even elementary school Pre K meters go high school college adored every single one of us have to do the forced labour every single day. That's why and how countries a labour can your and our countries again so day we have to go Sarah month in the highway system and also worth

the citizens and in the summer, and then the winter we had to go hunting that put because they don't have the harvest as I see it. I want to know what the proof hunting I heard you talk about. His people are like she didn't you say: hunting poor bright, tell us about hunting Pooh anger like in North Korea, literally nothing to throw away with among cutting your prevent p. He saw garments, gives us Cora. We didn't dare so poor. They cannot even afford the fertilizer. The country may long. Mr, like past rise again, they cannot make the fertilizer, so they asked people make give them Cora like in your family, your for people in the family bring one tonne of in January? How is that possible? I mean: does a family of four make one tonne of poop, you know, and you are now you don't improve once a month everywhere style there, why you don't put that all they re solely?

spectre! Is it that's why we have to go still put the hunting for full and thief gap, put thieves and in a black market they so put so rich people that government officials they have money, they go black and by the Pope and then give it meet their quota. Otherwise they gonna get punished. That is so like letting that sink in his soul. Rigging bizarre right, like the idea that you have to collect something that most of us would never want to touch and your stealing it from other people that is approved sort of the analogy for the economic state of North Korea. The second comprise like wonder: if there's a here, that's why you look like imagined twenty first century, when these are looking for, like finding poop hunting an entire they re, any free, Don Meteor quota, punish. Imagine that when that is the contemporary world, that we are living in. That's why? The? U N says it's a holocaust is a modern day. Hollow

asked, the? U N doesn't seem like they're doing a whole hell of a lot to help North Korea I've. I remember you saying that you gave a talk or were giving a talk and they sat you next to the north korean delegations, which is horrific to even think about, but they die a geographically their clothes We will also delegation, say anything to you cause this five, something guys their delegation three guys in North Korea, everybody had to smile at each other, so it's got a minimum duty people, because if I'm spying on you, so you are spy on that prison that perceived to be spent on me, say it's gotta, be tat way, I'm smile and I'm a spammer somebody's. They always end to report not to people she was too is too like can climb spy, and there are some things that three people always and that's wedding. A delegation, a good three to five b were nice to me and they were swimming in north Korean I don't. I understand North Korea's yeah. That's unbelievably callous and unthinking of them too.

I assume you're not super big on the United Nations bailing out the people of North Korea and I'll Carson and this morning that clean and resulted in the Britain they calculate shared it afore nosegay region, to finding their party like on September knife here this week, when third, a minute reporting the coins as a congratulations. Imagine those are the Carolina. The Hitler is alive. Why not disputing the leader of this freeware descending, the Congress, your national, that's crazy! How have we not isolated those holes in the sunshine policy issues, not proven effective? Retreating them with kid gloves has never worked. So when you were a kid and you're still in North Korea, you're collecting, bugs and roasting them with lighters and things like that to feed yourself right to eat dragon flies and grasshoppers out of desperation and sort of

the picture of this. I assume you have to turn your heart off when you're they are to the plight of people around you really new plan is singing sufferings. Involve your eyes saw you. Don't even think that unusual so does exactly that George Orwell's animal farm in the first generation they now they lived before the revolution. They knew the time that was different when you called the third once the new animals, they have no idea what the argentine life would be looked like its while I, if you don't know your enslaved, how do you fight to be free? I can our scramble. now was leaving their have no clue. I mean I've, never even seen the map of the world. When you were there, you never saw a map of the world. I never even knew that I would even did towards without Kamer sound

we know. Now, though, is now her curator. Through those cameras, some radio and in our screening calendar begins incomers almost war, I dont even know. Oh Jesus Christ is road, so you're completely completely isolated and that's why I just never even knew that single about his on the streets and people Having was something unusual, I thought I was a normal. They ve amount of privation and desperation that you grow up. Seeing does it make you question whether it is possible to bring a country like that? Out of I mean how can same magically tomorrow. Everything is reunited. Soft and north are reunited. It's gonna take generations for people to start thinking differently, or do you think that, though, adapt quickly like you did to hear their heart is not a good many managing our agents, a theme, their children and I carried a trauma that adjusting to Montana Disobey Craig. I mean look at how people I came here

We have in their smartphone by preserving the girl, did not have a smartphone and now look at. However voiceover Jesse had sweating. Humans are very adaptable, but I think the traumas and take a time to hear, but not the liking, all adjusting to electricity. Of course, noteworthy rattled I have some shower? I love you have some tea. We don't you think, so you have simply be a North Korea. It's it's not that interesting channels in the countryside, a one ass, a cat is a one. China begins at five p m and ends. I like some, at eleven, but we don't even have electricity anyway, oh boy in her ear. So if people don't know what a map of the world looks like our where their countries are or anything like that, then it seems difficult to believe that they would also know of their own situation right. You said they dont know

therein slave they another isolate that another oppressor. We don't even have the word for oppression. That's a day. My reader have word over stress, because how can you be stressed in the sufferers? Paradise is Georgia, worse dollars, spit may who controls the language. Controls are thoughts, so regime got rid of the words like human rights, really yeah gay they have the will to forget. What did you find out? What like gay people were like, and I assume that in North Korea theirs? I then I kinda MAC. Ok, remember somebody has again how to me and I get on my baby. I'm gave way to the authorities. see what the haze gay I went to order, I looked it up as a word to her really happy and understand gladly data have order for love in our school year because they don't want us to love other people that the deal leader said the only love the North Koreans noise reaching forward for the leader. Kim's angry, don't have word before liking, individual liberty- I mean

this concept day we take for granted. They don't know, what's so funny in America, when we were talking about how the oppressed and, unlike you know, for you sure press you don't loyal, press writers, noticeable, yellow screws, no Cordell pressed. or listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest young me park, we'll be right back thanks. So much for listening to and supporting the show your support of our advertisers is what keeps the lights on around. Here. We take all those discount codes and special urls. We put em all in one place, seed or have to memorize em. You can check out all the sponsors for yourself Jordan Harbinger got come slash deals please consider supporting those who support us Jordan, harbinger dot com. Slash deals is where that is and don't forget. We ve got worksheets for many episodes. If you want some other drills and exercises talked about during show in one easy place. That link is in the show, notes, Jordan,

ensure dot com, slash podcast is where you can find it now back to young me park. So if you dont have love what about or the concept of love, what about parents and children, I mean that has to be yours, a different they care for you, but they never going to get. My has never telling their love me. There's no proposed there's no one to four Romans Romantic relationships are not celebrate a very shameful thing. The only reason you marries because you and a glorified a revolution of the party and the deal later way so that we don't know where Shakespeare is: there's no Romeo and Juliet every single movies about propaganda, and therefore we we know there were, like you know, written form, love, but we don't think that was something we can use to. Another human personally I've seen weddings their yeah and the people are really happy and also they drag us in their photos, which is really weird like I know it was set up, was always said it does not have an Saunders holiday things. Yeah I mean we're like.

North korean wedding photos, guarding the bride and the groom it's so. We get therefore has a dollar it was very strange- and I felt like I hope this is like a real thing, but it's obviously it doesn't make any sense that it would happen every single time that we go every honor. We go there and then get the wedding, whereas if you read the monuments right of ammonia hurriedly apart and thereby ovens I've. Finally, I realize this year has five weddings at the same time and just happens to be enough for all the groups that are here. That's funny, that's all stage, but it is true that when you get married bursting out decoyed monuments to the kings and then respect, you marry not because you love each other. You married because you have served a party right serve the revolution. You do you have to go to monuments pressure. So when did you first experience? What you now know is love I mean really later when I can't american who allow later yeah, but

I do not know what love was. None too. I don't know, and I know you what is where there were many love is a definite Merrick. I didn't know what that was unsure coming to the West we have a child now, obviously special. I also have a half asian baby. The best mixed, in my opinion, is the fairy via the slight by a year. I wondered about that because I thought Maybe it's hard to adapt to romance over concepts of romance. If it's literally foreign to you. I mean people grow up in America, thinking about it when there in elementary school- and we see it in movies in you read about it again. and learning about it when you were like fifteen or sixteen years? I I mean people do lies, They're like I love you, but this I like you, but that sort of South Korea word so only teenagers who watch, paper drama. That say I, like you say Korea did. Anyone like you

easier because is arranged marriage. The party arranges: your marriage, parents, revenge, your marriage, your tongue, orange your marriage, it was never like a voluntary can fall in love because New North Korea, they have fifty one different classes. Fifty one do you have to memorize those though the big three classes, like the lawyer meters Edna wavering, lasted a hoss by three big. Agrees, loyal, wavering and hostile, and then they divide us of dividing them, and that is only government for me. ok. When you try to go to university, when you try to join a party that governments has any information, they have, they track you. What happened to your great great great grandfather the trick love your family, your cousins of cousin you're in love. in law. Who did you marry your cousin, whose today, if somebody get in trouble, facilitate even today to a generation get punished yeah we'll talk about that, and the second is that is

That's mine blowing. It's like a medieval aristocracy rules where it's like people, you don't even know your related to, could do something and then you get punished for it, along with everybody, your family? You mentioned that there was a facial that's defected and punished, something like thousands of people. Over thirty thousand thirty, five thousand people got punished of of and most of them taking none nine. They were relate to this guy. gotta geared to by association. Is that EU wide in America, Latin America? You suppose we guarantee, because your white zero sum ass ivy, born slaves in the back in visa gift allows us listen. It's interesting yeah, my family came hereafter that so, whenever you're wide yet are you are you get to suppose that everything is exactly the same concept? Eight generations is wild right because maybe you know you're good, and father. Even your great grandfather and that's three, but then it's gonna, be your kids and then their kids and then, maybe even more than that now

We need even on Monday, three generations. Do you see if you're married the enormity of the deer children, their fathers their cheered and goes to even the in laws, not the blow Langer affected? If you're Mary, then you get a fact it The whole point is just to keep people in fear. I like multilevel marketing by its well- maybe maybe not quite but it said, click the multi level, marketing of punishment, yeah Anderson

a review of the seat of rebellion. That's the thing right really out of the room where they get out of the safe somebody. Changing a party ideology. Didn't squatter killing your your son grandma, they really glad to a generation. I get rid of empire that clan and that's how they prevent. The revolution is good as euro tolerance, zero tolerance yeah. So what this means is, then, if you're sent to a working because of a relative, your kids could even be born and Mary are granted table were born and he's like concentration camps and they die there near. I think the Control controls zones Gavin. When this is like a shit, don't you come in time? They they ve been there. Yet it's none of the crime in your there. The first crime you get kid is asking. Why am I here really yeah? So you just even know. Why are there that? Never never never did I ever tell you. Why are there? That's how you get kid. I dont, even send the logic behind this. But of course the whole thing is comes down to fear and control. So does

is it? Is it all about because they can they can say, because I can. I borrow the author adherence, because I can't they do whatever they want, is not about being widening, doing the right thing or the regulation, because they can simply tell them. You know consider him, then I don't ask us why the book about the concentration camp, I think it's called escape from camp for so will link that in the show not growing up your mom told you. Your tongue is the most dangerous weapon. Even the birds in mice can hear

I get that right yeah, so this is kind of what you're talking about you can't say anything to anyone. Everyone is spying on each other and the punishment is so catastrophic that it's not worth letting anything slip ever yeah. There's a bag of furs and my mice carrier ispra that that most anything that I had in mind body was my PA. That's how they control your speech, but who controls speech they control like you're thinking. Why, since the regime prevents even as a thought crime, even thinking about crime, even thinking is treason saw, I was afraid you think I didn't even know what thinking was a dry skipper. South Korea, you didn't know thinking was cause you thought kept. The leaders can read your minds, you don't, even though our creed figure thinking was when I was ass career. I was so very much to thank you and I can assure starving and hungry and more. He saw how the moral and ours the what the regime towards us right. They were working so hard. They don't do sleeve, and now

like telling the south korean people- and they were like. Why are you talking about like he's a fire sky in the picture as a what and his friend looked. Every was here and, as a Dane, I somehow to teach me day was fat Oh you ve seen him with your own eyes all my life, every single down tv under newspaper. He was a big big guide. How can you be possibly starving but again were dresser de meta? He wasn't asked. Having what's going on with him now he lost a bunch of wake him jungle and his it's unusual cause. That's not really. I mean he was very sad when I saw him on tv- and I think twenty fifteen Labour last until earlier this year was over three hundred thirty pounds for like five seven faded guy was very big, well yeah, so maybe he's sick. That's what they're saying not think he's really working out Workin out

so that he doesn't diet to earlier get as possible. I think that's what's going on because he was wearing a jedi. Is now he's a veto by sickness. It's interesting to see the changes in somebody like that. His first Beach in public in North Korea was on television, and I happened to be there at that time and he was shaking like this over yeah and he was the only twenty nine years old or something when you gave this speech or less nesting seminars on me and the guides we were with were like all he so Karras haddock- and I thought no. This is like a sea minus if you're in a class and road going as being this is legit terrible aching and staring at the paper. Never looking up and like you would you have to redo that speech of years. high school areas in front of twenty five million people on tv shows a bus God you are men memorize this. They lived bullet points here, like no TED talk for you Kim Jong, and when you live there the calendar,

different. The numbers are different. The years start, you sort of touch on this earlier. The years start with the birth of the fur leader, I and others here, because due to the idea that you didn't know your Asian, though that's new right, I guess: did you just think everyone in the world was the same except for Americans who tell me what the word unwise in like a gay name. Another were different planet. I didn't even know the word acquitted, space space. Even after the rocket launchers like us after you left, they large rockets right and disperse ya at her left powers, sowing the countryside sitting. Use on tv right sure is even only the news. The newspaper one newspaper that people can read is only the officials can read, we'll commoners we don't get even have. The newspaper is not like everybody can go Wyatt. I knew tat even the morning. The money is only approve. The people gets a government, a newspaper invited and in the people Tanya, because on only that people there, the subway stations there's a newspaper

yeah I've seen a bookkeeper income outdated. Its stay can a non us. When I resumed we're like in the countryside to renew gets pseudo even easily the rocket thing we don't get to read the newspapers. I hardly know what to say says right right, yeah, remember asking a friend of mine in North Korea, one of the guys who had seen a few times item. Where would you go if you go anywhere in the whole world and I think she said like Mount Peck do or something like that ceiling right answer to that godlike Rohingya, our captain, our heart, that's where she lived worked already. As I know what like Africa, or something and she's in Africa and in her mind, drifted off and she was staring into space for minutes at a time and she was really happy because I think she had never actually even thought about that. It like never occurred to her ever and then quite We had dinner. She told me Canada, so she could work on her English, which, at the end,

in the latter magazine, Sword Anna now, why would you onto the world S funny their site? in China. I assume you saw when you went to China. There are signs that say dont, let North Koreans into your home. Don't give them any food yeah that's out of there. Put on them, We want more money, yeah, there's so there's like refugee hunters in China has a slave hunters like its give you five thousand one chinese one, but for this farmers, that's what they're making per year. Man says a lot of money, so that's how they incentivize people to report the North Koreans. That's her It will make money too for a lot of people. It's just a mystery why China would send North Koreans back from China back to North Korea rise couldn't easily send them to South Korea. South Korea wants to accept them or America, Canada, Japan, Australia or the western european countries will now subnational refugees, but China does on wanders. Provision to crumble. Didn't was, unlike me, gave a speech,

against them. Yet you must be making a lot of friends and the Communist Party of China. I assume North Korea has amateur you worried about ending up on the kill list. I have been on a cure. You know this already The vows outcry intelligence. I clearly more than me up casually gadget like yeah you're on the game is, however, we have a conversation about this so well, It is very many years it was before. around our session in Malaysia, yes filled with people who don't know Kim Jong NAM was the her other have had a brother of Kim Jong Il India, and these two women were tricked into sprang him in the face with winter. Do you know the ex yet nerve agent? He died at the airport in Malaysia, so when you saw that that must have been lost, ok there actually doing this was a big Meda go to the word. Yeah is aiming for dictators. Man, then wonder people dare zero accountability round. The world is not just saw, he was again.

who I see whatever I do, there's. No, I'm a look at China, Cush yogi you got chopped off inside, of causing turkey nothing happening to them. My nobody in America Standing we'll get Saudis SAW is ashamed when shameful. That's a world like is really rethink that good wines in his they dont Segundo almost going. His shows all of us. This is what happened there. does that make you worry at all, but change your behavior. But there's thing: when you enemies, games eyes. Quite liberating experience save your life, I now get gang, maybe there's a room to run away was on the earth. There's a nation with a nuclear capability reaching America even on it cannot handle them, then games on these sized coming down the Maya lives up to him. To mean there's no way I can escape from him on this earth.

Liberate Island, as I gotTA miserly lamas, who her right you're laughing at I've, ladys kings? I'm gonna come after me, no matter what, as I am on this earth yeah, I guess you could go to Mars. You thought the internet was bad in North Korea. Try Mars, the actually he'd, probably make sure that you have before you together I think that is a good way to look at. It's the only way to look at it. Otherwise, what're you gonna, do Grauben be fearful of this, and I think your enemies so much bigger than you write. So in a way, like wag as everyday says, like a kid who I was, should I be what I want to believe in him and that's all I can do for her Ironically, though, in I've seen your instrument go to ITALY. You go to Australia. Are you gotTA, Canada? You go over the United States that guy can't go anywhere. He leave North Korea has chosen prince

I'm in you Linda. Don't you live there? There's not a whole lot going on over there. That guide. The best thing is to look forward to is our parties and maybe plan some xbox like he can't even go to Mcdonald's if he wants to ask should, but he cannot. Fish is safe from Japan, annexation for him That's awful health issues cannot be boy real ones. Do you to Poland who really got it a referendum in this area may try to intimidate. You are come after you, but you're right, I mean so then what you can't we're but that your whole life now that's true perspective yeah. So I heard that you don't have any concept of light porn Dorothy and North Korea, not none of that agency thanks. I even know the word is sex vendors of color society. Another there's, no one for rape either because all news everything is happiness vision.

Get than usual when you're in North Korea is able to understand, and everything is like area reading, a victory over these amazing wartime pro yeah, the only thing, the bodies I get, our enemies Americans by their destroying them be reopened. I win this war away, so never someone die from high standards of fire, somebody get raped, somebody got murdered and ignore those news, So you are so sad from the word that I do not know why human trafficking was. I did not know what sexual sword towards a rape was. So when I was doing my mommy maybe in China. I do not know. Even that was a search so rape. I used the omega, though so horrible, that's all. I knew so we'll get two year trafficking story in reef because you ve told it in the world

places its in the book, which I recommend I wanted to have a little bit of a different kind of conversation on the show. Just because I feel, like you, ve told her story so well in so many places that it be a shame if we just read that, but of course I do want to talk about your journey first, though, the propaganda run so deep in North Korea that I think a lot of people. You really do have to go there to understand it, not that I recommend go in there and you shouldn't especially now, but when I was in the countryside, once there was a loudspeaker blasting something and, as I said, to our guide, that sounds like an emergency and he said no, it's just the news and then the next day it was the same thing and the next day there's all is this feeling of life were being surrounded by the enemy? We have to work really hard. When you translate the court, him quote news, it's just fear porn yeah constantly is I got. Everything is a battle Let's finish our thirty Reich hundred I'm in three years they bought or one hundred days over the harvests battle Nike,

or some like spring battle. Everything's about everything is noble. Like fighting envy I've heard that even when you're learning something like math there's propaganda, is it really like the example? I think I see once is: if there are four american bastards and you killed two american bastards. How many american bastards I left is that real yeah they fully that's real, even the physics, even the chemist, she everything a teacher up again, the said they use every median. They can't every song propaganda, North Korea. Very, like no songs that were dedicated about country music. There. Some are winners who I never knew that sound of the music. Do you never knew was our Zanu because of different types of music. What John now. I know South Korea there's a what type of music do you like what they mean their different costs. Mozilla is a goal classical jars, him

pod, I'm an egg. Indeed, what are those threats and another is a one time writers. They, though, our times of revolutionary stuff out their old songs, though our IRAN, or, as I also get added dying, is the only some of them from the old times they re now, but daddy's or so bad how suffering in the under the you previous came Marcel when we were suffering because really napkin that's why they were letting us know that some countries about the someone going and you know missing- answers are suffering they are trying to brainwash their life was a dark age before Gimme some got here and he labored drew a whole universe that he's a caring about earth that here we are stuck with two beings country. Therefore, we have nothing to envy new sword right that nothing can visit here.

some Pedro. Yet nothing to envy is also the title of a book by Barbara Denmark about then I ask assume you ve read pretty much everyone ridden by these folks tat. It has to be very weird finding out things about your own, I'm that you lived in that you realise was just like when you realize the it was just a web of lies like Kim Jong on is just an overweight young, privileged horrible guy is no magical, is his father, who was also just a horrible guy, also had no magical powers and the guy before him was just a liar who spent most of the korean wars hiding and brush.

it's really gotta just rock your whole world, ran it is the thing about then by ear, always disguise you into this thing about like providing you with a copy of outcomes providing retaining our safety and prosperity. Injustice sedate disguise themselves, as do the revolutionaries killing the oppressors, killing the capitalist right. Now I see how they were disguised by begging, North Korea. Of course, I was so grateful that kinda was defenders from our enemies, which was Come masters this is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Yoni Park, we'll be right back and now for the rest of part. One with you and me park

I heard that suicide is illegal in North Korea, for through in the penalty, is deaf which wrap your mind around. That I guess so, paradoxically, is in any case, because they are they one absolute obedience from yet they do not want to have any control your life whatsoever. We did so only regime all out to kill you, but now yourself right to your basically property of the city. You can't you are on the right of states to designate before you were born you tackled by the state, so the I think one thing the North Koreans allowed to do by themselves. To guess what it is I mean if you have, collect your own poop and you can't kill yourself. I don't know. Is there anything left, breathing air? That is the only thing you can do easier on the idea that they are not what you think why you see why you listen How even you move your body, how you dance get you in trouble go prison. If you, movie buying a more like, maybe censure, away now you're in trouble? Well,

even like a how you move your body, how you move, where you think, while your hair cut right, the hair haircut thing is kind of weird the guides are just you'd basically have like two or three choices of men: Erica right. That's not more than two inch long. The ITA women too said everybody was laughing and welcomes all requires his hair cut. To be everybody. Men have a his hair cut. It was a joke, because they want control, they don't want you to take that you on like freeware yeah. We don't they don't want you to day for yourself. So governments tell you what to do what to listen to what to watch what kind of help to get what to wear even mine. The regime tell you what to wear. So you never learn how to think for yourself and that's why, when I was asked for someone told me so what's your favorite color, I was what the heck is, that you mean cause you, you don't get to have a favorite anything known eyes, never thought they tore dream. Told me my favorite color was a revolutionary color read, write

Everyone in the whole country has the same answer. Why? What's your favorite food as a career, I give you is our national food values outside area they like being somehow you have a thing for yourselves and that's why regime control freak they make sure they country every aspect of your life? What was it like eating until you were full after being hungry for you? a life. I mean that's the first time you wait until you were full, probably in China had to just be like out out of body experience rang, it must feel is signed. really wasn't very happy. Experience like I mean a lot of North Korea's like what we want is eating. Boiled egg boiled agonies, that's offences for they began So like I never ate onto I fall, so I thought I would do a boiled egg a whole bucket like like fifty boiled? All I get is a hundred I'd die. Ear bugging actually eat them. The israeli hard live

other thirteen years old, unlike any part of like sixty fifty seven pounds or less smaller, just escaped so my still more so shrunk to and my son was now used to possess the FAT Food and like a lot of important, so I got so noxious and throwing up alot, lad sure. Maybe that's it. I'm always now just to food that Chinese was eating am I was always ignoring ingredients just pure plans, so little anticlimactic sabena until your phone and be like. Actually, I wish I hadn't done that as a new movies, you to be like that's amazing or somebody should leave your start, all your life. You can. I read it. I just after the wire it took many years for me to eat the fool like here here that has somewhat different salaries and fat and everything You love even now, of course, yeah liberating. I mean any time lick, my wife is also like a very small asian woman and you all

like a hollow leg or somethin about now that, like in eighty ninety pound Asia, woman is like my it's mine blowing, it goes evaporate our evaporation. It's like its common outer than it was so funny. You see like we'll go out with a bunch of her friends and where you put in the food, that's funny, of course, you obviously now I've who doesn't right now for the first foreign movie. That use I heard was titanic and you can get in trouble for watching foreign movies ran, save us a death sentence, death sentence. Sometimes hear kind of hard for me to read my mind around risking your life for TAT it's not worth it?

The way that in a country you haven't really nothing to lose their easier carrying away. Then you wanna get cared sometimes, even if you don't get executing my divers, starvation or nothing. So it's easier for nurse kind to risk their lives than Americans to preserve in America, people a lot to lose. A nurse kinds are not an essay shows when nor can watch does movies. It is the only time they can escape from their misery, their suffering. That actually makes a lot of sense. Will you Prize that all watching titanic that in nineteen twelve, that people had more and better things than you did and nine. Ninety four in north korea- and I remember what our orders force and lives in the order, right that I tapirs. Doesn't I don't know either and then I sing or the plates. They never seen those plates in my life, but also the whole movie, there's no propaganda and guy just eyes for a woman

for his life love very confusing the beginning. I will even be hot shit, confusing even I knew you are better for us to use free stuff. You ve met the funny thing is thousand law movie, so we were watching with big because said thing, so you need at least five of them were like a real or a view just reached is are, you sure tat, they all alike have met him. Dirty means forty minutes each tab at your film going like ok, if you do tat TAT one box of pay. So this is the chinese move on yeah. Ok, because I've never seen anything that you could fit Titanic on one VHF day by think, like bag and nursery, wasn't the union to handle that things inertia have electricity comes only the holidays are recommending years birthday, key merciless birthday or maybe the new year re. Only nowadays them in electricity. Comes

finishing one movie can next month. We, like you just thinking. I used it they're looking at high again tired thing, though it is always a is a battle one day that they go home, and so that makes appreciated, even if it's corny movie whatever you watch like. I remember people use that I give to you, Might the ass sir remember like watching as a lot so someone like others. I turn on tv. I don't like those capable when I go to a hotel rooms. I look it's like, as so. I store chinese signalling North Korea living has across a border looked at the second Merrick Strawberry MAC stronger in the lads, and I never seen the strawberry like that, and everyone see the mic uneven. Another cow made a milk So we looking at what the heck is that have arisen drink it is suddenly dishes and even with the North Korea is a most mind. Opening thing experience

We don't know strawberries, strawberry, Israel. Milk is yak, as you can't really get fruit, fresh fruit or anything like that. yeah. You do have a refrigerated. Where do you keep it right and we don't know why? What a man on is, and we don't know most of food like I never knew. A stake was, you know. Well, like none of the food has stopped pizza, never heard about it. Even in the black market, though, in your border town They must have had some candy and clothes and things slowly from China live market button. Those that perishable goods. Oh yeah, like me, carrying over an hour, saw the differences. Are we do have why the strawberries Wade struggle the wide to one grows of actor in the mountain o wild strawberries hang in there. you're not like this is where he saw I do not know that was like a strawberry Yoda. Villages wreak through tat, furrows very different here, and I gotta grocery stores in the beginning have no clue what they were.

the cherry tomatoes, because North Korea's of farm is so behind, didn't do genetic what at all so like what the heck tying it brings a quota get tomato way. that must have been such a trip as well to see all these things I mean even now. I don't know what a lot of the fruits hours I can imagine if you ve never seen anything like that like a whole grocery stores is overwhelming. Tat is what's that what the radio's in the home right. So when I was there there's these radio in the wall and you can't turn it off and its straight out of Orwell's nineteen. Eighty four year in its place. The news, but it's just propaganda being piped into your house. But what are they saying like? Is it just the same thing as on the tv. it's not radios that they give out for free. You ain't got a hare, but because visited in the window user you have more. Electricity is when I was younger even than every home have to

IRAN and you can turn down the volume, but you can turn it off is connected to the wall and also the make sure that peepers, you need record the papers. You and everybody has been these papers. You need a common check on it, a measure We are maintaining. Why too? This is when they tell you like do you know and norms, which means a lunch time. So you don't do not let individualism you eat. all together in the morning they be re gap that so weird they wake countryside hotel on their playing. This weird music, like as I'm learning mining, is my trip in right now. What matters is ghostly music playing in the morning and then there's like something it sounds.

Spirit in every deadly work time was five. Am everybody have to go to collect mobilization solved families? The maps can occur, sick, intrude on go out, and so does the time in the immediate blasphemy work and in seven I am come only breakfast and then go to school. Everybody go to work and then we go to class and then those timing peeps again and nobody goes home like a casual, Scattered everybody moves in the same schedule. If you don't have electricity than those things don't work is out what those vans are with the loudspeakers on the exact what they're doing the same thing they do it for the whole village. We are that exactly does as the days actual humans to North Korea. They picked up people who, as a good voice, and I would be like my job in North Korea's does Eagle at everybody in a village to go to work. Any launch needs a further means. Pirate fear them might really brainwashed. Yes, so depressing air, again

or the Koreans re Nosegay, we don't have the instruments right than using electricity saw courtiers in guitars are the most common instrument, so every music is used to be brainwashing here. You ve ever seen those performances those like those are so creepy, because the kids are really good at dancing or guitar singing, but then also it's like their whole life. It's like the olympics of being good. It up again and having no artistic flare were the thing that your practicing, your whole life and there, like six There was a document use. I would recommend you twice called under the sun and he's a russian director caused North Korea say like online, and I could make a document, your bad, how you probably some Shaw Parade or something, and then I d do it, but he filmed before those thing. And after that thing

so reach was everything was sure. As those like be role, the I roll turns out to be the actual the BT us behind the scenes. Actual documentary ass, every three accolade about interesting by was checking. This is nine years old cars. I gotta see me why she, this time, It was a holding him down your session at the priority because everybody they just should they cared so she was a use as a character who was very blessedness. Soldiers Paradise having a wonderful life, and then she was like ok, she's echo. Why don't you just like? Maybe he reader, poetry and nation is now in our poor trees, so she restoring her commitment of their leader and ass at the end ass, a good. She was not happy that she was not I doing good job, they could see me. Are you happy and then like? What's that she does not know what that is my happy. Even emotions are off limits, North Korea, that his wild- yes, this keys, I saw where last, but there I become Roberts, because all fear about yeah

Is that there's a lot of sort of robotic tired people will? Actually? I should say I assumed it was because their tired there'd be people who, when their standing in their like at a bar, serving food- yeah, like is able by nor squirrel Hotel or whoever it like yeah, like a restaurant, la understanding there, but when they're, not interaction, If anyone they just do this, my friends and I were like. Is she sleeping while standing and we learned shortly that she was actually like sort of sleeping cause. You could see her move it like losing our balance gradually and we,

Who is that she was so tired and so malnourished than she was literally falling asleep, while standing up and working- and I think, like to live your whole life like that in turn not be able to have access to your own emotions, as you rightly like, robots keeper dive after sixty pages it they North Korea, you never hear the people died from strong or people died from my cancer. We don't wait that long to get killed by disease. Like other thing it is first to North Korea is a life expectancy, is extremely low near my grandmother by that thing, around american age, at fifty eight or fifty nine, while more starvation and everybody was all she lived long life which is crazy, cause it. Fifty nine, your problem in America, you're, probably

some, your your prime, your kids, maybe our grown, so your kitchen ass at work in you're, doing a thing you're, making to retire pretty soon, you're, not winding down. Now no unbelievable. I know that people have asked me this before they say. I was it true that if you follow the newspaper wrong, you can get in trouble and I think we should highlight some of the things that you have to do in North Korea to the performer. Nonsense right? So if you fall the newspaper incorrectly, if there's a photo of the leader, that's it ray, you might get a concentration camp, but if you read it so every fund newspapers, Korea, Kim's fodder, but that pays you don't see it for some time. You do not see the front page, an Eu Rapid, that's how you get executed. Okay, so of course it can be accidental in a hotel wants it there's these magazines, they give you the floor Every single one obviously has like Kim Jong Owens face on it before was Kim Jong IL site, and it had a magazine with Kim Jong IL's face on it, and I put it on the table. Hotel, because I wanted to keep it and then there's an ashtray and I put

Austrian and coins in it, and I put it on top of the magazine cause, of course, the United States. You never think about this. Who cares it's a magazine when I came back all my stuff was range neatly in the magazine was gone and on the way home on the flight. They seated me in the back next to, I think, like some sort North Korea is usually they separate the foreigners in the North Koreans have. I had to sit next to this tough looking guy in the back, which is a little scary, and I wanted to borrow a pen, and he gave me a pen and I had the inflate magazine and I wanted to write something down, except for Kim Jong IL's picture was on the cover and I was writing on the back and he grabbed my arm and he was like no because, if you right on it, it makes little indentations on either side that damages the photo, and I just did nothing for the rest of the flight, because I thought what happens to me if this guy gets really stuff like onawandah, then torture. Does too

little wonder in this is before that wealth. For that I haven't gone since, but that kind of thing is, if I feel, level of fear, and I'm like look man. I live in United States what're, you gonna do we're on a flight we're leaving the country. I can only imagine what you feel when you ve seen people's parents disappear yeah that must be happening at school right, someone, parents or even the kids, your with there's only I'm an old family Gaza. That regulation goes if the North Korea at your House get fire. I call on fire the first and why you do nourish near true down my parents. You rascal portraits of kings, the porters that you can. Your everybody. Have portrait of kings chief, you let that get caught fire bathroom, clannish dead, consented prison camps here so you're supposed to save these stupid printed photographs of your leaders instead of your own kids- and there are some- is not just a portraits, maybe portrayed look at this picture. There was a tree,

We are treating the games on. Look that looking back. Thank him dinner looked at and then those trees are like in his treasure lasher, because our dear little looked at one point that putting it just looked at it. So bad thing was caught on fire. Who somebody heard it, and particularly at these, are moving meets a grey and as it were, a measure here or low sandwich sure yeah yeah. I saw even a tree. That's how you to give your life for It's funny. You should remind me of this. This is such nonsense. Right, cuz you'll go to like an ostrich farm or some dumb, stupid tourist thing that you don't even want to go to, but they may you go with Ireland on the itinerary ostrich farm is literally an example of it are like some sort of glass plant or chemical factory. has never. That thing has happened on sixty eight like it's been arguing. hell, it's not working fact, really obvious and you're going. There you can see like. Oh, this is the chair that the great

Comrade general Kim Jong on Saturday and when he was inspecting the factory and others a huge mural that took months to create and take it, they call it on the spot. Guided if you heard here it's where he like walks into other land water letters on the wall where he sat here when you visited the it's like here's, this guy who's, never seen a chemical factories like hey. Why don't you put that tank closer to that thing in the lake wow Gene is revolutionise the way we make chemicals and I'm thinking to show and tell other people how to do their job must be the most annoying thing in the world and they're. Just like well paint the entire wall write down everything you said: gold plate, the chair that he said in forty five minutes, then make like a golden tile on the floor and then never step there again, just so ridicule. The whole thing is myth. Here in Europe. Even those cameras on newspaper, the description of accusing you so hovered paragraph greedy ally that great as leader of our people, the army of some data Party of the Sunday and is

ending the use of some things. I the introduction, heads a paragraph both at Grand Marshall leader of the five year. Does that going back? the actual content, visions, their hope. It's like reading opposed on forbes dot com. It's like all fluffy idea, one one sentence of content, the rest of its nonsense, but need was we journalism Here's a trailer for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger showed with Charles Room here on the Jordan Harbinger Shell. When I was fourteen, I get my first opportunity. Teeth gave North Korea and go to China. Police came to house plaguing deports North Korea. I got transported to detention centre there brainwashing list for nine months. I start working on coal, mine, lowest paid only in rice. So one morning, instead of entering the mine, I walked up the path and began running and the in the distance I saw train come to stop. This is my chance

need to get on the train. I finally made it border town, unready term, the next day, right. I walked into the river device, North Korea, China, which is yellow fever and then slurry, walked into the water I slipped in Iraq and illiteracy. I was on my back and I heard a soldier screaming. Every man don't stop stop, but I wish you the Gaza Strip screaming at me, but he never for the trigger, and then I went to one field. I'm in China now sign on a long journey to subway station gets Thailand. That was the best day of my life. Going to type prison and then I was trying to apply for South Korea, but they didn't recognize myths refugee, until I we would have to send you back to China. Chinese government sent me back to North Korea, but you guys don't want to help me and that's just the tip of the iceberg. He escaped the police. He had a run in with sue

police in China, I mean this guy just has an absolutely amazing sense of survival and story. That's episode. Eighty four, with Charles, through confessions of a north korean escape artist, part one and part two episode. Eighty four of the Jordan Harbinger shall make sure you check it out alright, that's it for part. One part to come up with a few days, links to everything you me will be in the website in the show notes her Youtube channels and book. You can find the show no Jordan, harbinger dot com. Please use our website links if you buy books from any guessed, it does help support the showing. Yes, they work with audible those links. So please do click, those if you buy from audible as well worksheets for episodes in Show notes transcripts in shone out. Videos of our interviews go up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan. Harbinger Dotcom, Slash Youtube. This one is no exception. We also have our clips channel with cuts that don't make to the show highlights from interviews that you can't see anywhere else. Jordan. When dot com. Slash clips is where you can find it. I'm at Joe

in harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me I'm linked in I'm teaching you how to connect. with great people and manage relationships using the same software systems in tiny habits that I use every single day. That's the six minutes networking course the course is free I don't need your credit card, none of that nonsense, Jordan harbinger dotcom slashed course is where you ll find it. I'm teaching them how to dig the well before you get thirsty and most of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course so come join us you'll, be in smart company, where you been They show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jays Sanderson, Robert greedy Milly, Ocampo, Ian bared, Josh, Ballard and Gabriel Ms Rocky remember. We rise lifting others the fee for the show is that you share it with friends, and you find something useful or interesting if you know somebody's into North Korea's stuff. If you know someone is fascinated by cultures like this We share this episode with them. Hopefully you find something great in every episode of the show. Please share the show those you care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show

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