« The Jordan Harbinger Show

585: Timothy Snyder | Twentieth-Century Lessons on Tyranny

2021-11-11 | 🔗

Timothy Snyder (@TimothyDSnyder) is the Housum Professor of History at Yale University and author of Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning and On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century.

What We Discuss with Timothy Snyder:
  • Democracy has to be an ongoing activity — not a waiting game for the next election cycle.
  • How fragile a democratic republic can be against the concentrated efforts of would-be tyrants — and that the United States is not immune to their strategies.
  • The small actions we can take every day to ensure we’re doing our part to maintain an open and free society.
  • How to consume information critically in a “post-fact” world.
  • Recognize the scary parallels between historic catastrophes and current events.
  • And much more...

Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/585

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Special thanks to our sponsor Glenfern single malt scotch whisky. You ve heard me talkin, dog lymphatic. They have sponsored the show very generously thanks for that they get their highly recognizable, stag, icon, right on the front of show our right next to my cat, they ve got old new line of work that aims to challenge the traditional notions of what it means to be wealthy and live, a life of riches, Glenfern believes beyond the material, a life of wealth and riches about family community values, fulfilling work- these are the valley, that lead glenfern to become the world's leading single malt scotch whisky. Today's guess. Snyder well. This is an episode about authoritarianism, kind of the opposite of rich life, anyway, moral partners at Glenfern coming up later in the show coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show? It makes a lot of different now, whether we choose to talk to people who might feel excluded or whether we did let ourselves adrift in the memoirs of fourteen reaching changes- Words Nazi Germany or of Soviet Union or Communist Eastern Europe, for we know that there is always that moment where the person remembers
Well my neighborhood, but hiding we no longer hide me or my finnish colleague now was walking across the street, not talking to me if we can just avoid doing that. If we can make sure that we're talking to the people, everybody who might possibly feel marginalized or targeted by this government were already, a big different voting through them, but all who Purcell welcome to the shell, I'm Jordan, Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger Show, because the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people, we have index conversations with people at the top of their game, spies and psychologists, astronauts and foreigners, even the occasional national security adviser, neuroscientist or money laundering experts, and each episode turns guests wisdom into practical advice. You can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical think or if your new to the show by the way, are you wanna tell tell your friends about it. Of course, I appreciated when you do that we ve got our epoch starter packs, please, our collections of top episodes Borg by popular topic. Tell me
nurse get a taste of everything that we do here on the shelf. Their available on many platforms, Spotify included just visit Jordan Harbinger Dotcom, Slash, starts to get started, poured out. Somebody else get started with the shelf. Now today, one from the vault. This is recorded a few years ago, we're talking with Timothy Snyder a professor of history at Yale, one of the most can you say, celebrated historians, when you're talkin about the Holocaust he's one of the most celebrated historians of the house. I'm not sure if that works, but if it is one of his latest works at this time of recording was upon tyranny. Twenty lessons from the twentieth century. I read the book when it first came out, but on the best sellers for a long time, the shore book, but an hour red go get it. linked to it and the shouts. It's got twenty lessons that you can easily consume. You should listen to this episode if you want to learn how to think in terms of protecting your rights and our democracy because mindsets to become and stay aware of shifts in how we and others around us thinking behave now. Blossoms
details and small actions. We can take every day to ensure that we're doing our part to maintain an open and free society for ourselves, our families and our communities. And, last but not least, some scary. Oracle comparisons and some even scarier current comparisons. While current at the time of recording, I should say that this is a few years old again. Take note. can use these comparisons to become sharper and more discerning critical thinkers when it comes to consuming information and with respect to our roles in America or the world today, and if you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks, it's because of my network and I'm teaching, you had a dig the well before you get thirsty and build your network for free over Jordan Harbinger, Dotcom, slash course. Most of the guests on the show, contribute and subscribe to the course become join us. He'll be smart company where you belong now, here's Timothy's like what is the story of this formulation and it's a little scary. When I saw this, I actually read it right when it came out thinking. Oh this open is cool academic issue.
Review of subjects that I mean trusted and lived in. The former Yugoslavia have got a lot of friends in Russia who lived in the former EAST Germany, so I've kind of grown up in place. Is uncertain times in my life around that isn't to all your really the right word for word cycle. Things were great back, then, oh, they were also horrible and terrible, but there was also a good thing, because that's people remember their childhoods their teenage years regardless, What's going on, unless maybe there's a war in the country where you're living and even then sometimes it just depends on how- but did you were by that same war? and I ended up reading a practical, how do guided by how to deal with something that you just really hope never happens to your country through the story. The book coming about is story, you Meat coming home
american women storing, but about an american historian. I work on Eastern Europe, which means that I've spent the last twenty five years running lots of different languages and spending time with a lot of difficult sources. Having to do. another ten years with Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and from the darker chapters out of european history to do that. I've had teachers and those teachers have burial then people who lived through communism and often fascism in another done that got nowhere by students, people from Eastern Europe who have seen democracy received. So when I wait the twentieth when the November two thousand and sixteen what I'm bring two. It is the sense that it can happen that is too much democratic republic and collapse, I'm bringing to the sense that it can happen to people like us, because the people I learn from our teacher people like us and then offered assembly can happen here. because I just don't have the assumption that Americans are wiser, smarter herb nimbler than my friends.
Other countries where democracy has collapsed. I've been worried over the course of two dealt with exchange. I D written a farewell about the russian story, which echoes actually the first person, and you asked to write about. I wrote about interference in the elections in the summer of two thousand and sixteen thinking in November. With that didn't going to be a shock, what I can do is I can try to impress the things that I think I have from wiser heads than me. He basically from the people who experience national socialism communism try to bring that into some kind of grit queer form quickly, so that Americans and make use of it well, there's still time to do so. That's it. during the book, so it comes out of you know two times that comes out of my whole life and then it comes out. Let specific moment when I went to react quickly. We want a hope, is often happen in our country, and we want to make that happen. between our country, other countries and we want, Imagine a lightning the huge majority mountains to imagine that America, how cut off from the rest of history that America, somehow special
and you see how people spend their wheels were not clearly not through. So some of the main reactions from people who are worried about the election of Mr Trump were things like well, we ve and been every countrywomen democracy which had not really true. The institutions will protect us or fundamentally it can happen here, and the problem when you don't notice your book or turn it. You don't realize that your own normal, You mean reactions that those forms of exceptionalism which are pretty arm with day to day work and fleet more and political trap when you're institutions are actually aroused. So I was writing a book to make sure that would help to make sure that people wouldn't just Turner, had the way. Wouldn't you say it can happen here. Wouldn't you say that America Exceptional, because we know from was we're in some ways were not, but you don't know how wonder We warmly rocks had been tested, and now the moment when we are being tested, I think it is an interesting phenomenon really for lack of a better word that Americans, we is Americans, don't get how lucky we are in terms our government in terms of our history
If you are a white male there? You really don't get it because you never really had to deal with it. In your lifetime, no matter how old you are you're still alive, and we don't really see that democracies can fail. We can get lucky pretty fast as far as being Americans, especially the middle class white deeds in America and the Americans of today, are kind of like the czech or pre com in its eastern Europeans of not even a century ago. The note that a lot of wonderful stuff in that comment I mean I love that you mention chuckled Roebuck here, because the Czechs are actually a good example of a country which, in the twenty than birdie, was more democratic. The United States was at the time by many measures, including its acceptance of minority, and yet none the last collapses and communism after the Second World WAR in nineteen, forty, eight and many people at the time. It was a good thing
The people were in a kind of green state or kind of alternative reality, which MILAN Kundera captures very nicely in his novels, and those are people who are very much like us. I mean, if anything, politically, probably all that more savvy, then we are also love the mentioned a lot, because I'm not an american historian. Don't I look at you, I think yeah. There are these moments where we had to have good leadership and damn where we lucky with Washington with Lincoln, We ve, rankled donor rosabella mean every generations we had to have a good leader and by the standards of the pine those works, nuptial leaders now the next moment and run lucky. We have our finally bad leadership. We got lucky now we ve got lucky, but we didn't, and in that sense it's the first time you really have been tested and then your point about. U S. History is also really well taken part of our notion of exceptionalism. You know that we're not roll normal can that we always in a democracy, but we haven't really meet women democracy. Their partner countries have been more democratic and we have been at various times, including right now,
I not involve democracy now, but the story that american democracy tutored here is that something that you say that but why goes much further work on your website nods women to be able to vote for a century an American to be able to vote for half a century and left her fifteen years have actually been moving away from democracy with the more specific gerrymandering wit about his oppression laws, with the different united, the endless in politics, we ve been drifting away from democracy rather moving towards democracy. The kind of aspiration, forty one about the book. It reminds us that damn we have to be an activity acting in such a way that we might get better outcomes. so, if Americans are no wiser than the Europeans who saw their democracy yield to fashion I'm Nazi ism communism, depending on which part of that geographical design, sir, you are a part of our job.
It really is one that we can learn from watching what happened over there from a distance, hopefully yeah. I mean this is why the book as it is a case for history, you write it absolutely, not an academic history book, it's something quite different. It's really a manual with a political pamphlet that give hit by drawing from history, but reggie. It's also a police for history that there's a whole lot of wisdom. That remains in the conference. with communism, with a confrontation with fascism or with other kinds of authoritarianism, and that that wisdom is accessible for us. If we took the concept that we needed and look back and learn from others that the advantage, the thing that terrifies me is how weak and just look wait from that. How we conduct imagine that over this has never happened. Anyone else do either. We say in other to american impulses. The first, as is now happening in the second, is evident happening, nothing less This has ever happened to anyone ever before ever again can therefore no experiences road at right, whereas in fact things are-
they now resemble other thing. That happened other people and if we can just break free of the horizon of everyday experience of being just get out of the horizon of the Daily NEWS and looked back a little bit they're all these helpful bit of advice which were left precisely for us. I mean the people that I'm fighting in a book and it is calling for them in the book is not so much me being smart. The book, as my trying to recall other people who were smart, and we are more difficult moment if we think of Victor Clamber, keeping a diary and not be dominating above the Hubble readiness for the powerless in communist Slovakia. They weren't writing for themselves, the rain for other people and already the rain, fell into their own times. They were writing for the future and that the generosity that we have to accept that we can accept that. You know then the way we see the present changes, because I've just been stunned and confusing overwhelmed by the Daily NEWS like over. You think. Ok, I'm part of some kind of a tradition of people
program I'm gonna, learn and then I can take would have learned from them into the day into the future, and I can make a little bit of a difference. I think, thing that really surprised me, the most and freed me out. It was when the election What's going on, and my friends in the former EAST Germany who had lived through the he's german regime, which is pretty terrifying front he will live in Russia, Ukraine and in the former Yugoslavia were used work. They protect the. continuity election but he clearly well in advance of the press here at home, and it was too many people for them to have just got lucky or for their collective paranoia, which I used to make fun of them for to have really played a part. I used to really kind of laugh. They tell me things like there's. All kinds of conspiracy theories abound over in those places as well. So I just kind of chalked up to that way of thinking when you grow up where everything is being manipulated all the time You do really only have a one party state and it was kind of
disturbing when they said this is what's going to happen, because this is going to believe it in this is a reaction. That's going to happen as result turns out we gave ourselves a lot more credit. Then maybe we were due in many ways. Yeah I'd have very similar experience, as I was kind of going in and out of my american bubble in two thousand and fifteen. I try to look at American from a russian point of view, because you know there was a smart people in Russia over do things and they see conspiracies when they're, not there, as you say, but very often they can be quick and trading about affix premarital life that maybe we would be shy about being specific about.
You know when you look at the: U S from a russian computed abdicating, you think yeah. Here's a vulnerable society is a polar society has a naive precisely where people are not critical about what they read. Here's an electoral system which is shocking. We opened outside interference both at logically but also just morally, because no one expects to come, I'm kind of describing what the Kremlin actually did, but I'm printed on the broader, which is that if you take a step away from the U S and look at it, it does actually look rather vulnerable for the kind of thing which ended in two thousand and fifteen and you're my students with similar to yours, where you know my friend on the polish laughter, my friends on ukrainian laughter, my russian diffident friends were saying that this could happen in because they recognise as a kind of politician also because they recognise the fake news and the kind of subterranean propaganda of the attack on Hillary Clinton and the dawn emails as a kind of politics, they knew, and
Then you could work, especially in a place where they had been tested. Showing. What funny thing about Ukrainian, for example, is that their much resistance of kind of thing than we are because they have seen it before they ve blown up with it. They know what it is. I did twenty experience where, ukrainian war? Journalist friend of mine dropped into a Ohio and within just basically within a day. She was saying I'm going to win, and I thought you know what's interesting, that one smart person coming from a completely different society who actually just go to talk to people is going to get it right or is our entire media? Complex is basically going to get it wrong. They apply to their father with a bit of a strange, applied any applied to recognise. We are in one world that we can learn from other people were not these problems that we have. One of the things we can do is we can reach out to other people and learn from them, and that party with the book does mean some lessons in a book. For example, even the term corporeal politics, which I mean just getting yourself applied and doing your politics outside not print screen data- think I've learned from
younger people from democracy that have been challenged, so that can be heartening to realise that you're not alone. I think that is heartening in some ways, but it's also disheartening because I dont want to live in Ukraine. I lived in Ukraine before and I didn't like the government there here. No I'm trying to give it up right at the end, then waited law approach of the book that the range Possible outcomes is a lot broader than Merrick and usually we think a wealth gonna be some form of democracy, but why should it be? That's not the lessons of history at all. We have people in the executive branch now who are indifferent and hostile. In fact, too policy and the rule of law, to our imagination may only then to various forms of democracy, but reality extend much further than that like what we can see. The visible spectrum there's the whole realm of generating cosmic rays and so on. Beyond that visible spectrum, which is also possible, we need
three, we need some knowledge of contemporary according to them, so we have some idea of what possible there. On the other hand, though, if we have that, if we see that you know if we retain ourselves that we can see, all of that, it couldn't have the tools to fight back, even if we do it fast enough, I think we can prevent these. we shall comes from coming at so on the one hand it much worse and on the other hand, it's it's also much better. Yet I'd want to live in I want to live in a non kleptocratic, non authoritarian, democratic, egalitarian, United States of America. That's what I would like so then if things like that, if things like democracies, telling what usually happens. It doesn't mean they fall into something like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. The democracies set up with good constitutions and good They generally do fail. Just that's what his he says and you're right historians even correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like, of course you don't think as things are possible here and their possible just as their possible elsewhere, so is what we're doing here, primarily fighting,
normalization of, The erosion of our rights are: what's the primary thing that we have to do here here. I think that a good characterisation, the primary thing it's about you normalization That's why the lesson number one and on tyranny is don't obey in advance, because if we accept that this shock is going to overwhelm us and we're just now going to take whatever happens every day as normal, then we're done. Then we don't have a chance. One of the things that we do know about. Nineteen thirty three under about a portent regime? Change in general is that in the beginning, the new rules require consent, unorthodox forms of consent, just not reacting, looking away internally, adjusting your own expectation and obeying advance. That is, you start thinking what the new rule is. Gonna want and you'd start doing it. If you do that, then you're psychologically logs, because you started to normalize your own soul, it will be very difficult.
He walked back that profit you're off the politically lost, because the one time when authoritarian regime changes are vulnerable is in the first week of the month. So if you re the first weeks and months by saying that in such a big deal or by looking away you're, probably not gonna, have a second chance to go back and to do anything. So if you can fight the normalization that you can say here, I am I'm not with this programme, I think of it basically wrong about what kind of America what kind of American I want to be given to that end of the stick in the mud. While everybody else is drifting, then you have a chance to do other things so that, while a number one is less number one, because everything else follows from that. If you can do that and coordinate sound than their lot of other things, you can do that are very effective. But if you blow that one then you're
taking part in your turn regime change, whether you like it or not. That's what you're done. Can you give us an example of what it means to obey and advance? You said yesterday to try to figure out what the regime once and then do it. But what does that look like in practice? Yeah, the one would be the moment of the victory. Will you could be the kind of person who thought that camp was unacceptable for the region with the you thought you was appointed a robot. What's that you thought that he wasn't a patriot and someone who is likely to betray you ask what you thought it was a massage, no, it literally just category person, but the moment when he wins you'd find yourself thing, but on the other hand, you know, maybe you ve got a point about tax wires, ie and if you do, is you open that aperture than all the poisonous air started to rush in an hour?
then you know you'll, be things robots, alchemy, opening up and before you know your thing while he's just like I mean you, ve got his problems: beaches, supporters, Mikey, others. If I get some more thought, it would be like expression on Wolf, but through space on election. I like people, realizing that they think it's their job. To me, normal. A second example would be at the level of civil servants so distort we in Germany, for example, if the civil servants haven't treated the regime as a normal top of the hierarchy than the others would have been possible in a month in that we're exactly like that are over that our civil servants are or that yielding cover not. But it is a reaction in the civil service and say: ok, the new leadership is gonna, be against human rights and therefore I'm sorry preemptively disabling, not part of my job and doing it even before the orders actually come down that both in the people who work and Iraq receive, and they have to think they have to be active,
if they don't wanna, do something like that. A third example of not obeying in advance, I have to do with the fundamental one I think in their other chapters, and I'm gonna have to do with accepting what true, what's not through the window, forms of normalization but you see a lot of the United States and its good one that the according regime into their aiming for the one that authoritarian of the Putin and from rise more else when people say well, you know I'm not really sure what's happening because, on the one hand these media, they didn't know your help me. You say about the present trumps as this encompasses the other thing. I don't really know enough. being in advance, because cities you give up on figuring things out for yourself you're, then just gonna directors without be bullied, forgetting up yourself. Your basically done so those are some of the ways of luck. Your listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Timothy Snyder, we'll be right back this episode.
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egg, so that other news is probably think I'm just gonna watch, Netflix or sure come, said this in the hearing, but you know he led this Our information me said that too, and then this other side said that, so we don't even know who's telling truth that I give up again, I'm gonna go watch Netflix. Why bother everyone's big liar, you know, if you wanna, be, the Terry enough exact like if you want to be in the border society, that's exactly the posts that you need, the strike and ethics the mood that you need to have, and I think it's pretty important for people when they say I'll, use your praise when people say I don't know, I'm just so much networks. That means that you are actively taking part in the transformation of United States of America from Republic to an authoritarian regime. If that's your attitude were not at the moment where you have options that are choices, everything you do with a choice. If you did say I don't know, I mean you're still my couch you're, making a choice and the choices for authoritarianism and Limited explained that if you, whenever public, that means you have to be a citizen.
If it doesn't mean you try to figure things out for yourself, if you give up on the impulse to figure things out for yourself, if you just stay well prevention stories, one way or the other way, then that means that whoever has the most firepower. Dover can generate the biggest spectacle he's gonna win. If you stop trying to figure it out for yourself wherever there's some kind of shocking event with war terrorist attack, something completely invented does it matter during a cold long by the crowd and cold long by your emotions and the system is going to continue to fall down around you, the answer is: we have to do some things which make us feel a bit uncomfortable and we should okay, because freedom is uncomfortable. I'm in Vienna, porch energy was pretty comfortable, you're just unproven, poor it comfortable, because you don't really up to think you know you can just watch the Netflix yet the deep under which an uncomfortable now to say. Look. I think that the facts are out there and I think I can figure them out, and I think that this is important in our present cultural moment that can sound naive, rightly concerned like oh well, you know, don't you realize it
hey Craig, I mean everybody has become a kind of epistemic seventeen year old. Like oh yeah, we don't know, we don't for small Begot was dad. We don't trust our grandparents, you know, and people think it basket. I got. The height of enlightenment is not believe anything, that's not an out equally important politics and public cept. They sure I'll make mistakes, but I'm trying to figure it out for myself. How can you think of yourself? You can pay attention to people whose job it is and those are the investigative reporters people who actually do that day to day and have met with and have discipline. But if I give you just discard the teeming internet for a moment and only pay attention people whose job it is to be, I what's happening, you will actually have a pretty good idea of what's happening. I mean for the tragedy of all this. Is it it's really within our grasp to have a sense of what happened and avoid the cynicism they got. They pick to little tiny little tiny risk. Hey, I care, I care I care about knowing I care about learning and therefore follow these journalists and made a pay attention to people whose job it is to actually get things right. I think that is a challenge because Self deception
is a pretty seductive habit and it becomes a state of mind at self deception, an laziness, but mostly Deception, couches, laziness, right kind of like, well, you know I don't have time to figure all this out. I'm just gonna go on with my life, really isn't just laziness. It's kind of like hell, there's some really bad going on, but I'd dal afraid, I'm Are we going to see more of it? If I look for the truth, so I'm going to ignore it for now and hope it goes away, even though in the back my head, I know it's not going anywhere year. I mean that's part of what being free persons like, I think, is overcoming impulses which has fared hardly human and totally normal, it goes back precisely to the framers of the constitution, which is where the book starts. They think and there I can quite right that our natural tendency is towards turning their worried that, when push comes to shove, Americans are not gonna credit rating
justified and worried about that. If anything, they thought the republic was gonna laughed much less long, and it actually has lasted so I mean, I think, if they were looking at the stupid thing, to think that they really have now they would disappear that we deceive ourselves or that we were lazy or that in some part of it ideas and party political system. We actually one have authoritarianism, so we don't have to think about things that were surprised them in the least. They thought that we would have to have appropriate institutions such as the free press, to alert us to give us a chance of not acting in this way. They thought we had to have checks and balances said that the judiciary, for example, can react against executive to give up share of thinking in a way which is contrary to the way that the leaders are gonna think predominantly something completely different, which is that a lot of this is actually habit, though a lot about the book on Ernie is trying to propose. Is that how we carve up the time in our days and have a great influence on how we think about the politics of the world? How much importance we need to actually have if we can manage to do little dumb things?
I could spend an hour left on the internet every day and subscribe to newspapers, then that unbelief the elementary habit of picking up a newspaper. The doorstep can make us feel more conducted in more active in the world. If we just sort of drought ourselves on face look into. We had enough and in turn the tv not only real, less well informed, but we also feel helpless. We feel like we can't really do anything. Is it too much right? A lot of it has to do with how we actually treat our bodies like? What do we do our bodies, what kind of data we have every day, then that's supposed to fit the screws? I'm gonna get somewhere over. So what can we do to actually increase our ability to take responsibility? In fact, One of the things that you mentioned in the book on tyranny is to take risks on stability for the face of the world, in other words, or at least in my other words, maybe be sceptical about propaganda and the things you hear, search for truth and things like that, and also this is what, The primary functions of this show in many ways is to challenge people to think about
things they might otherwise take for granted or else can we do them to motivate ourselves to take responsibility for the things that are happening around us for the conversations people are having you. get into this. When you talk about defending the language- and it seems almost a little bit ridiculous on its face until I read it to understand what you meant is that we should actually monitor the language were using in our own heads areas that were using and conversations with others On the one hand, under criminal law,
more dire? Then we, I think, we'd like to admit, and that the element of this perception that you're talking about earlier. On the other hand, this means that we have much more power than we think we do, since authoritarian regime changes require consent. We have all kinds of powerful, although relatively simple ways to deny its and all kinds of things which ordinarily might not be politically significant, are much more politically significant now so, for example, the smallpox. It makes a lot of difference now, whether we used to the people who might feel excluded or whether we did what ourselves addressed in the memoirs of authoritarian regime change. His words Nazi Germany or of Soviet Union, are common in Eastern Europe. We know that there is always that moment where the person remembers, what
neighbor who is hiding, we no longer the hiring or my business colleague that was walking across the street, not talking to me if we can just avoid doing that. If we can make sure that we're talking to the people, everybody who might possibly feel marginalized or targeted by this government were already making a big difference valley for them, but also for ourselves how we use the language you mentioned as a good lesson: nine, I think, be kind of language. This is hugely important. One of the ways that our sense of imagination gets right, get comprise is that we got had over and over again with the things that people are saying today and acquitted natural try to grow with going on today, having very exciting things are happening every day, but with the way that the news covers. It is by extraordinarily small vocabulary, which is largely designed by the administrate Its opponents every morning, pitching a few very short with Jays to the media, about what's happening in those talking points have found their way into our brains over the course of the new cycle. If we read agreed Nixon distance, if we use all broader swap that the language
If we have enough time in our day to read a few pages of a novel or completed their history book, then we can express ourselves differently and jump in the act of expressing yourself differently. We also broaden the political discussion, so that becomes less about the yes in the no less about accepting or denying the days talking point and more about, perhaps with figuring out what's going on. If we all use the language more broadly, we end up broadening the whole problem beer and we end up creating the possibility for more connections among people. These are all in your face. The world which you mentioned. This is often hugely important. I mean the example which is closest to my heart for the swastikas, because I work on the Holocaust. Their origins are now more swastikas any less than they were before. There also for people who are getting up early in the morning and whitewashing swastikas than they were before, and those people are making a difference, because if we get used to seeing the swastikas than we can also get used, two others things where we are means that little activities, especially regular ones, can make a huge differ.
But we have to accept where we are weak up where we are- and we can also see that these small things which don't carry political actually are politically very powerful. Why is that this seems like such a small thing like again going back to the language who cares if I use the same tropes that are on the news or that pop culture, sources are using their ankles the same ones that are being used by both sides and medicine at the common language, why should I work about which words were using, and on that same no, Why does it matter? If I talk to the people, I work with her talk to my neighbours. Are? Why don't I mean? I have definitely notice that difference in Eastern you I've been even in the former EAST Germany. People just didn't talk to each other that much even afterwards does it wasn't really a culture that was built out like that, and there were our immediate neighbours in Germany that were very close to, but when I looked in countries like yours, we and things like that. A lot of the people they didn't even really know who lived in the same apartment building when I was in Ukraine, there are people that in the same building. Is us with the family
everywhere than they ve been there for years and years and years, and we saw people in the hall and when I was with them, you never said anything. I thought that was really weird. You answered your own question would be required, but when it take a stab at it anyway, put Americans think about what an authoritarian government would look like, or what a repressive and state would look like. I think we first think of the big personalities rethink of Hitler ridden Stalin. And then we imagine a government that had unlimited power, which is over well me, which can do whatever it wants and when we do this, what were effectively doing is worth striving to Hitler and Stalin superpowers. These people did stride onto vague, and they can do whatever they want that way of thinking about it, who publicly destroys all of our responsibility. All the responsible
the Germans, all the responsibility of the Russians or whoever it might be, because it always the case that matters are people have to in some way participate, if only passively, if only by letting things happen. Not letting thing happen involves thinking yourself as an individual in choosing how you're going to talk, and where are you going to make your way through the world just the very decision that you're gonna be an individual and you're going to talk about things in your own way? Actually matters tremendously, because it means to take your example that you can talk to your neighbors. Are you can talk to somebody in a bar who may or may not agree completely? But if you ve got your own way, walking, which doesn't immediately fall into one thing or the other thing. Then you might find some other areas we could agree or regionally could along aggravates. He was a person and maybe something that you say it's in their minds:
having some kind of conversation later on. Another very important thing is the possibility of a right. That is something we take for granted. We can trust regretted like we take it for granted with their all kinds of things that are possible in are basically functional. Rule was society that depend upon trust thrust depends on language. If we get so deep down in our silos that we can communicate with the If we all just repeat very kind of coaches, then we end up not trusting by another. If you dont trust one another than we currently have, rule of law and the care we have democracy. I'm thinking of this because of your example of Ukraine or post communist situations in soviet set ups people were only three in the kitchen. People did have a deep sense of trust, but for a very small number of other people, usually family members are close friend, and you talk in the kitchen literally in the kitchen, normal for a totalitarian state.
If you want to avoid that kind of thing you have to try and an individual citizen to keep the crushed going to keep the communication going outside of the home in other places. The one wait it's really struck me was in the run up to the election, where I realise that when I was talking to people about politics that I was very often not talking to them, I would interrupt the conversation they were just having with their facebook be, it was like I was intervening in their desire to be all alone with one thing which they trusted, which was their computer. Basically, we go too far in that direction. We're just knock and trust one another as people, but I think you know, I think we can break that. We have to be worth its happening. Yes, that being aware that its happening is actually kind of tricky in the moment, because you give it actually really brilliant analogy of this. I believe it was in something I read on mine speaking of my facebook feed, but that people forget what freedom and we forget, what liberty are it's like cake once it's gone, you just
don't know what it is not like. Oh yeah, there's some of that somewhere, it's just gone. You have no concept of it in any way. In any more year, the oppression of mine that we can give up freedom, and waited. He rises from hot water at a certain point. Just now, there and the waters become cold, and you know you started shrank and you're unhappy, but you're not really sturgeon. when it happened. When did go wrong, that everything was fine for a long time had. Our problem is that I am not speaking for you, but so few of us have actually done anything to deserve living in a free society. This is partly a generational issue. I wanna reasons why we're so upset. The word for recently with the Second World WAR is the notion that those people who did something right, but all across the west we ve now lost touch the moment between us, three win. Freedom really was not down to dramatic or light
Many theories, but we're freedom of tens of millions of people really did hang by a thread and where was clear that actions did matter. We lost track of that, and so in any irony is, do we can jump to quiver you're thinking. nothing that we do really matters and we lack the imagination of what losing freedom would be like. We think it out. You will see it coming, but we want, and let me know how to look what's he coming? I mean, if you don't see it coming now, with the denunciation programmes, the Department of Homeland Security, with the obvious targeting of Muslims and other people that's because they can be marginal associated with about Portugal obligation. The total undoubtedly campaign the White House with the demand for loyalty, which is a fascist project, you coming down? I mean you're, never gonna see it coming. You have to recognise that it's not gonna come out. You like them blocks big you're right. It's not gonna, come out. You
some overwintering supervillain. It's gonna come out you by getting into your personality, making you think I can do without this. Second, do without that kind of fun to denounce people, but the big deal for the swastika on the train station, my neighborhood, you get used to things and then you live in the throat half way and have not been the terrifying thing, at least for me, the thing which animates me is the notion that the next generation of Americans could have no idea, what being free is actually like and then the one after them, and then we'd have to go through the entire thing all over again from the start, and who knows if we would This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Timothy Snyder, we'll be right back this happened. sponsored in part by Glenn, fitting glenfern breaks from the single malt Scotch whisky Norman helps redefine what it means to be rich. We all get bogged down, they material success when the currency of the new rich, it's about getting more time and enjoyment out of what we ve already got. Glenfern has been around for a hundred and thirty plus years this affair.
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But why do it alone? Just works, makes it simple to hire and manage remote employees across all fifty states find out I'll just works can help your business by going to just works dot com- that's just works, com for more info and now for rested my conversation with Timothy Snyder right every word, especially now that technology and things like that, make it easier to entrench things like this and make them. Et regimes like this and make them more ubiquitous when you see outside resistance reforming Germany. That resistance came from a free United states, it wasn't going to happen from inside most likely and if it did it, gonna take a long time, there's a reason that Hitler called it a thousand you're right. I made it wasn't something that was going to stop in his mind with another election during his lifetime or during the next ten lifetimes of people that he had planned to succeed him later groups of your friends and neighbours is the bad part of global station pick out a group of your neighbors and citizens fellow citizens, and is
hearing them with some sort of worldwide globalists threat, will g that sounds like nineteen thirty. Doesn't it will? Of course it is ended. The quite conscious use of that three Rwanda reasons why we can't afford to what history go. Is that people who, like the nineteen thirties, haven't let history go? American and european right wing and fascist thinkers? Reuniting thirties are in fashion in the right, arrogant, I shall end with Mr Ban and we can say all that. Does it really matter, but if it matters the people who are governing us, then it matters to us directly, whether we like it or not, you exactly right. Fascism is a few things, but one thing the fascism is awaiting had a localization. Globalization is inevitable. It's just there. It's not. All of you have evolved, make it just so happens that were living in a world together with lots of other people with one economy which has linked in impossibly complicated ways, and you need to face up to their trade deal with that say: ok, we'll have policies which are winning
minimize the inequality in Maximov the opportunity and we're gonna be real citizens about this and to face up to it, or you can say well global vision that really condition at the conspiracy. We ve not impersonal. It's personal and hear the people, those people for the fascists were the Jews usually opened always exclusively. They can be deduced now, but they can also be cool the Mexicans. It can be the Chinese that can be the Muslims. The way that this works, regardless of whether its act wisely. Greedy, your cue, the waiter politics works his once. You start accepting that your neighbours, not your neighbour but is an element of a larger global conspiracy, then use thought being as it is in the country and you start being what you think of as a defender of the virtual.
of your special group from this global threat. As soon as you start, thinking of your neighbour is someone you do now for the post. Some induce her fellow citizen or your neighbor, then you are taking part in the accord, inrushing change and if we choose not to understand that then word biting problems here and that in a global thing, really striking, I spend so much time. Reading the Turkey, the people with whom I did the gray and a truly striking out a lot of votes, one American right talk about the globalism. You know which had been imagined conspiracy and they do it to the exclusion of real enemies of actual threat. So only one thing which is where which is happening now is a lot of books on the right are spending their twitter deeds talking about resisting globalism with are actually is a foreigner happy in other than enemy, which has interfered in our elections, and we can overlook real problems, real threats in order to create a bastion of late, some kind of conspiracy. Much worse. Here's now, here's a question that a handle on asking but you're just a regard for this Russia
in the nineties, dipped into democracy and then God, how democracy pretty fast. I read: a ton about Putin is one of my obsessions that doesnt seemingly have any connection to the things that we talk about here on the shelf, although it starting to become so important that I can't ignore it, but the russian system stabilizes inequality because it uses fear and scarcity etc to keep the staff school more. You look guys like prudent doing extreme things like blowing up apartment buildings inside Moscow, using the security service to scare people into obedience. That stuff is not even just read out a nineteen. Eighty four, it straight out. Nineteen, eighty four, either the nightmares People have in the book nineteen, eighty four: why is this model? spreading. It seems like there's some obvious answer that I'm missing here I mean: does Russia have to spread? negative, disastrous model. because Russia isn't becoming more like Europe and the USA. They have got as some
I'll. Try to make the USA and Europe more like Russia. Is that the case and if so, why? How does it work now? I think you captured it pretty. Well, it's a little bit like in the bank combined youth. We could think our institutions are gonna, spread from West to EAST there's a kind of Nova gravity. Today, things are gonna fly Where's the east people become more like us. They wouldn't have noted that in last year's that's ethos. Now tilting the other way and things around laying down from east to West and many of the things that you are talking about before with respect election. Many things that have happened here and last year already happened in Russia, whether with five years
ten years ago for twenty years. I think what happened is that the current russian regime recognizes a that it can actually reform the country over address the terrifying levels of economic inequality without losing their own grip and be they can't bring Russia closer to Europe or the european model again without losing their grip and rather than conceived defeat they confronting, which has very intelligent, which is to say we are going to deny that it can get any better. So this is how Russia,
russian authoritarianism is different from the big ideology, the twentieth century. The big idea of the twentyth century said: there's some better world out there and we're gonna get there and they said liberal democracy is irrelevant because democracy is failing in its much worse than these utopias. We got what the russian leadership says is now, but their thing is: go watch networks, that's their ideology, their ideology. Is you know what revoking the joke democracies a joke? It always trust is a joke. It all a joke. There is no proof, that's the way they run things at home and then once you, if you win with that, if you can get the public to believe that the next step is the public, those yeah everything the. Why did we prefer their own lives to foreign lies in a special form of post I don't know. What's it to you know to government lines you would you also believe- and you think you're clever for believing that it all government always like everybody. So we must refer. Oh my dislike for our own Socrates and the russian foreign policy tries to do is to spread that because, insofar as there might be a democratic Ukraine,
our report. There might be a democratic European Union. Are a democratic, United State that the threat of existing model in Russia to their quite intelligently, trying to bring us down to their level? That's what they're doing, and they do it not by Spain ideology. They sped lots of ideology. They spread contradictory ideologies, they pitch different stories to different people. So during their invasion of Ukraine, they told the international left that there are stopping fascism and no stupid people bought out, and they told the international right that they were stopping sexually and stupid. People about that they were claiming to play worked against. Fascism was actually they were doing anything a kind. They were just invading their neighbors. They send out the contradictory narrative very effectively with high production values, then, at the end of the day, you ve got a wink, nodded say: well, maybe relying but everybody else's line anyway. If they can persuade us of that, and we all just watch enough, let in short our shoulders, then we will
whose democracy and then they will win. I mean, after which a point that they will win prudent, had its own problems and that's all the people on the american right would my Russia. You should really go there and durable you think of accurately. It is without them put much point that they win and wood fortunate that we lose. If we become like them, we become, but only lets free but really become available up or very fast. He. I think that the to look at that and that side of the world and think, while you know they're doing a lot of things right. I remember when I was in law school. One of my friends was rough but had never lived. There said something like this Putin Guy, I admire him. He doesn't take crap from anybody. Dude pushes policies through doesn't care about what other people had to say and you at some level. That's what Russians really need. Yet none of his back and forth stuff that we're doing over here that's for pansies he's pushing these reforms through he's, not letting these guys get away with anything. I really wish. I could grab that guy, find him now and say what you think of how that worked out for the last fifteen or twenty years, and I would have a feeling that, since he
the news you pray as a slightly different opinion of how that shook out for him friends and family who are still stuck in Russia, and probably dont- want to be there at this point, especially being their jewish. They still have and he was planning to go visit them shortly. Afterward graduated, and I think actually did I'm wondering how happy and healthy those people are right now, especially being connected to the government and things I gotta just really scary, the more I think about Putin, the I read about Russia, the scare that whole place actually becomes year. I'm in your point that people should really go. There is very important. One historical analogy that occurs to me. The international right in Russia today is just a tiny bit like the intern left in the Soviet Union in the nineteen people are drawn to an image or something, but if they could spend a few, in the reality of it, it might be very useful to them. you know for the international rate or the like all right which lugs Russia
Are they aware that Russia actually how the tremendous problem with its muslim population which we really don't. Are they aware that the way the Russia manages terrorism and by collecting muslim heritage into the government they were generally. What would you like to live in a society where they're not free and where you know people even all right all right, we'll go in and out of prison at the whims of whoever has power or they we're just how it the way. It is not that of the rule of law, not the ogre thing which you want not build, have your business at the terrorists at her. But the other pointed ears I wonder return To- is the success of Russia, very good, quite temporary, in managing inequality? Much of that system goes back to that that Russia has terrifying levels of inequality, and I think that with the element of the decision which is attractive to MR trumpet and his colleagues, this notion that you really can have a system A relatively small number of families controls tremendous majority of the national wealth and get fighting to put up with it in part of the secret of getting too
I did put up with it is something which I would call this fatal populism where there's populism, but the populism vernacular demanding for the people. The populism is, can can't blame the rest of the world for our problems and the reason why many nodded it did. and perfected. In Russia, centres of living in Russia are way down. Its rush invaded Ukraine. Russia pointless invade Ukraine. There was no point in vain Ukraine, but good may questions what for, but so long as Russians believe that are taking part in some grand struggle. Against the american superpower. Yadda yadda their willing to put up with it, at least for a while. You take her pain because you think there's some international point to it. I hope you're not gonna get there. I believe that we will, but we at the beginning of a trajectory that Russia has already gone much further along ten. Thank you so much this is. very enlightening in kind of a scary way, but sometimes those are the best shows. So I really appreciate your time. I definitely appreciate this book. I will be giving away several copies of it because it really short. I think I am in an hour, and that was because
I just sat down and did it. It was really easy, really interesting. It's got twenty little discreet. Lessons that you can stop if you get interrupted by your kids, are life and come right back to and it's pretty darn important. It becomes more and more important every single time. I turn on the news. It seems thanks so much for a conversation. really pressure as opposed to talk. Europa can do it again. That's some thoughts on this episode, but before I get into that Then he Luciano remedy was born into the world of organised crime spent much of it life, is a mob enforcer and played a part in heist and assassinations alleged Here's a preview of my conversation with the former italian mob enforcer common decline, put some level of together this guy watching
the position is gonna, be there was talk, it pulled. I've done a show that a fresh start right away he's guides beat me shop mad. I don't even know how I made it back doubt. Tat was crawling around the place. Liberals crawling with like remember things you come back here. What's gonna, have a close call for you boys and has a fundamental decision was that he is taken from the harshness of fires should face later. They tell me what this guy watch. I want it. Enjoy D. We went to the basement weapons. His family was gone running to me. If you want to be fifty to bomb attack, I gave you three days will have already lost their metabolism. Get his dad Randy Dad stuff like you'd, have shot, because we pick out some take the causes got Nigeria. Don't you have a new and I parked right in front of the place is participation. gonna my waistband gonna go away and talking about an issue of what he told you I just don't want me.
when you talk to lasting clotted, when I walk through- and I turned around- I seen me out his passionate and he was positive girl carriage- forget capped, the musical that he would tell me should at least behind you for every reason before she was so I'm gonna make this guy get job what'd. I tell you you, thirty mother, you must have a closed caused me hammer blow. You can have the opposite jack and I soon began to weep and he put his hand on it May I didn't have been hopelessly dip junk always get a drink. Hit me sheltered and shoved. His caning is just kill somebody, since they cover the cucumber for more with more italian mob enforcer, Anthony Remedy, including the many creative ways. Mobsters have gotten rid of bodies over the years check out episode for two five on the Jordan Harbinger show big thing: Timothy Snyder will link to the book in the show notes. Please use our website links. If you buy the book, it does help support the show
Snyder is really really good. It's something that I think is a very unfortunate necessity right now, because we do as Americans, myself included in this. We think of this It happened here. This won't happen here from the institutions that will protect us. This was really a few years ago. Are we in a from? They sinhala that we were back then I dont know. If we are, I really doubt eventually people will decide they had enough for people who voted one way or the other way positions of power will eventually say to heck with this and I'll pull the emergency brake, as we can see the historical examples, that's not always what happens and that in itself quite terrifying. So this is certainly something to think about again. This episode from the vault. I know that some of these don't stand up over time. I think this one certainly does work sheets. The episodes are shown its transcripts or in the shadows, I'm at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or you can it be on Linkedin, I'm teaching you how to connect great people and manage relationships using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use. That's our six minute. Networking court
It is free. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty it's over it but an harbinger dot com, slash course most of the ass. You here on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course come join us Europeans. Our company, where you belong, the shows being authoritarianism. Please share this episode with them. Hopefully you find something great in every episode of the show. Please share the show with those who care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear by lifting others. Defeat for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's interested in the direction, we are headed politically in terms of our freedom and of an the creeping authoritarianism. Please share this episode with them. Hopefully you find the great in every episode of the show. Please share the show with those who care about in the meantime, do your best to apply and what you hear on the show? So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time Fourthly, a game nights, baby showers and more trinity brand believes not only that everyone should have a place around the table, but that everyone should be welcomed with open arms and a full cup
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-28.