Special thanks to our sponsor Glenfern single malt scotch whisky? You ve heard me recently Talkin about lymphatic with the highly recognisable stag icon that we ve got right there on the short, then get a new body of work that aims to challenge the traditional notions of what it means to, the wealthy and to live a life of riches? Glint verdict believes that beyond the material, a life of wealth enriches is about family community values and fulfilling work. These are the values that lead Glenn, fitting to become the its leading single malt scotch whisky. This week's guest Steven Pinker exemplifies these valley. you'll find out why, later on, in the episode more from our partners that Glenn fitted coming up later in the show coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show why which allows us to share all kinds, new ideas at among them could be ideas of how we reduce war and crime and racism and oppression. It's possible. But we can improve our lot, even though we're stuck with human nature and then in better angels of our nature, I show that it's not just the theoretical possibility, its habit,

or has come down, and rape and child abuse you just whenever you have the data you plot mobile time, available graphs go down welcome to the show on Jordan, Harbinger on the Jordan Heart you're sure we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have endeavoured conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts and entrepreneurs spies in psychology, even the occasional legendary Hollywood director, mafia, enforcer or neuroscientist, and each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice. You can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works in becoming better critical thinking. If your new to this show- or you want to tell your friends about this- show the episode starter pacts are a good way to do that. These are collections of favorite episodes organised by popular topics to help new listeners, get a taste of everything that we do here on the show just visit, Jordan, Harbinger Dotcom, Slash, starts to get started or tell somebody else get started and of course, I always appreciated

do that today on the show Steven Pinker author of many books, including the better angels of our nature, enlightenment, now and rationality, has newest Steven Pinker and I've been trying to have this conversation for years now glad we finally made it happened today. We ve got away variety on the table. For example, why is now the best time in history to be alive, not just because of advanced technology, but because things are actually better for almost every one in nearly every category and by just about every metric that really matters. It doesn't necessarily feel that way too lot of us, I'm looking forward to hearing what you'll think about this conversation is well. We also discuss some big issues today, like Syria Afghanistan, the weaker genocide, even universal basic income. So this conversation is really all over the place. I think we did a great job of keeping everything with through line here. I hope you enjoy this conversation and if you're wondering how I managed to book all these great others, thinkers and creators every single week because of my network, I'm teaching you how to build yours for free over at Jordan,

ensure dot com, slash coarse and by the way, most of the guests on the show, subscribing contribute to that same course. So come join us you'll, be in smart company where you belong now, Pierce Steven Pinker. So if you listen to most, say parents, because picking on boomers is not cool right. It's not called a generalised, but if you listen appearance, they'll be quick to tell you. Things were better when they were younger than they are today, but this is actually through by pretty much any reasonable measure right. That is correct, a grey area. The older generation are always saying that the kids today in a good mood, but it is first of all their features of human memory that led us to think that such as we confuse changes in ourselves with changes in the time when you get older cattle, but slowly remember things as well and things in some ways juicy worse. Also, our memory tends to filter out the negativity have Ipad

experiences? So I you I remember what life is like at the outset of these, but I mean I remember how bad it was to go through it at the time when you actually look at war objective indicators of how the world is then we are much better off today than we were decades ago and by we I mean the species, the entire planet. Extreme poverty has plummeted. Rates of war. Have and down crime is going down. The United States until were adopted in the past year. Infant mortality he has gone down. Literacy has gone down so pretty much. Anything the new measure about human well being hasn't proven to say nothing about the advantages of streaming video on a flat screen tv as your house to ITALY, with rapid years on a little black and white twelve and sat here. Of course I mean technology aside. We seem to be in this. Is it

lucky time period, or is there some countervailing forces working against these trends that we're so common in history? You mention war and crime are down it s, just the beginning it from or tell me, is it just technological innovation or There's something else going on: it's a combination of technological innovation, another knowhow and their origin values. There are currents toward a more humanistic value system that would privileged obeying of humans and other living things over things like last glory. The pre eminence of the race religion following the laws of scripture? Those are all sources of morality in the past, better them they're still alive and well, but there are trends, especially among a lease toward a more humanistic mindset, be right that our default would people tend to four yet? Is that it's not as if we were ever in some, even from which we deteriorate Brother are natural state of nature. Is your disease and hunger and conflict, and we ve got

it will be applied our ingenuity to make life little better for ourselves here, read history or there's some anecdote. but I was reading something extra care. Remember what it was, but basically London had horse, there are piling up so high in the streets that people couldn't use the roads to get to work, and then they had something called. I'm gonna get the year wrong, but it was like the great stink of eighteen, fifty eight right where the river, the Thames smelled so bad, people are dying of cholera is like a thousand people a day or whatever it was that they thought it was the smell that made you six of course, they're, like oh get far from that, but you know, go ahead and drink it with your meal and However, my asthma theory of disease that it was out of the sector is in Canada to it. But it's wrong and germ theory disease, which a second nature to every school shall today it had to be discovered and proven guess exactly it in

course, looking at a lot of things in history, married to into a China Family rights- are there like you, have to drink tea, its healthy and, unlike I'm, pretty sure that, three thousand years ago they thought that D was healthy because it was boiled and it was the only one They didn't have eleven, but Julian deadly amoeba living in it at any given time because it had been boiled. It's not like there's something healthy and tea leaves, but people still believe all this and it's kind of funny. It will look back at something like that just reverse engineer the fact that a lot of these wives tales are alive on me. What's the opposite of a wives deal were something good for you, but now we're thinking, something's badly, superstition right. Some of that is still very much alive in the form of nostalgia, wrote in a way here, a beer in Chile, everything you boiler anything with alcohol better by lucky coincidence, Kilvey bacteria, these parasites and single cell organs. where we ve inherited women, which is fighting saved your life. yeah like beer and half the fact that your hundred you,

because they re the only sterile sources of liquid out is a happy coincidence. Yeah, I remember my mom, telling me years ago, like buyer pirates, always drunk right typical little kid question and chief, I think, actually found the answer, which was Tat really keep water on a ship, but you can keep rum and there like. While we got a drink, somethin rights this room and spoiled stuff that turned into fermented stuff that we can now eat and drink, so are better access now to education, sanitation, in working hours seems like it's kind of the next thing. Are you examining current trends at all hours, that kind of too hard to do? I do A graph in my previous spoke enlightenment, now showing working hours in the United States in Europe, which have gone way down for more than sixty hours a week to fewer than forty eight and that's probably an area in which there could be. There should be more progress by we will people work more out the economy demands tat. It could be that way.

France is an artificial intelligence along the boring repetitive jobs will be automated, taking some of the pressure off human labor in the past, as we automated, we found for people to do so they used to be elevator operators. I still remember elevator operators when I was a kid in the Big department stores here, guys, who, last and all day with a lever making the elevators stop at every floor, we don't have any more, but we do your tattoo removal, technicians and pet psychiatrists. So there is a certain turnover, but probably it might take some legislation push it along reducing the number of working hours expanding the number nowadays would certainly be a humane development. I remember learning about the working hours in Europe and one in Germany, we work more than anyone in Europe and it was like thirty IE seven hours or something like that. Up to fifty, I thought I'm pretty sure my dad

looks like ten hours a day it forward and he's gone on saturdays. You know it when I was younger and then you look at France and it's like I'm gonna get the number wrong, but it's with significantly less than good work. If you were here and people who, what don't take the entire month of August. Often, France are considered kind of work, a hall at Mister workaholic over here. That's right, America in this and a lot of statistics, something outlier as far as affluent western democracy, The concern we really are under achievers crime rate is higher, are a school achievement is lower Life expectancy is lower. Our happiness is lower prices better then poor countries in Africa and South Asia. but what our number one, when you compare to New Zealand and the Netherlands in Switzerland and Canada, and so on, you have let you know huge surprise there. Just given a gap, progress always leave some people behind it. Actually gonna has me a little bit worried right. You mention automation later, a lie in wait.

Yes, I'm wondering what you think of universal basic income because were really once we get to a period of time. About this. With a few. I experts on the show like carefully one of his greatest concerns. Is you just can't retrain people fast enough for jobs that are at the rate that their disappearing? Because things are. meeting yeah. I think what we don't know- and I know that that is a position. A waiver economists themselves are divided. Whether there will be new occupations like video game costume designer that well, I couldn't have conceived of cyber security so that an unknown That is whether the elevator operators will be replaced by pat psychiatrists, so to speak, whether they are universal. Basic income is actually there a workable solution, their calculations that the numbers down at up to divide the tax revenue by the number of people- and you can support them if I'd known as working and it's gonna be a wild with fact it today, despite promises for a long time,

We can't get a fully autonomous vehicle aware you can open up a magazine and let your car driver to location that you were. You tell it to go to. It turns out there why they, I problems or a lot lot harder than we thought the human brain is there's gotta, lotta limitations, but it's a desolate. things better than any robot can do now. So we don't know when the day will arrive. When that many occupations will be fully automated, then it could be that can always be son, that not only are humans best suited to do at ten things like elderly care and and child care about teaching our examples, maybe even planting trees and reform areas, and it may be better tat. The government create jobs that the private market will support, but that are good for the country good for people, and so people would still be working, but the jobs would necessarily be those

the marketplace provides, interesting plus also, everyone will have to have is more redistribution. That is a more progressive income tax whatever the advantages are the free market system. There are a lot of them. Would you saying that there is much less pressure at the lower part of the income scale to keep incomes up there, many opportunities for the wealthy to get still wealthier and it may make sense to instead of paying people who do nothing for the governments to top off their salaries, for doing something? I think well, I won't disagree with that, because it's better to get paid for doing something that nothing. But I would imagine you take a lot of flak for the viewpoint that the government should create these jobs, and I dont know if you check. Twitter, but I would imagine, if you did your twitter feed, is full of people calling you a communist or a socialist for having these types of ideas. Rhetoric problem save your kind of I live in their vaccine. I have my workplaces in the people's Republic of Cambridge and Massachusetts among sabbatical right now in Berkeley

right, because people that I hang around that isn't my problem yeah. That makes some sense here I don't look a bit further comments to carefully, but if I did abominable I'm a communist right. I do have survive, libertarian friends in your maiden, I'm probably by their standards. I'm idea, socialists by the standards of academia, I'm on the far right, we're pinker the pink. I guess right would not be the they call you mind about. Maybe fever swamp sofa, make Amerika great again button in the car because that I hang out- and I for I ve- had the opposite problem that may make sense, but it sounds like what you're saying at its base is not really that controversial right, don't protect jobs, protect the interests of people instead, absolutely that's perfectly, but protect people watchdogs I think the answer is we don't know. What's gonna worked actually As it happens, we ve had a huge experiment in universal basic income in the past year and a half with the EU,

a covert relief payments- that's probably not sustainable in indefinitely nature, but it wasn't interesting experiment and probably choosing to tell there is a mismatch at the moment. The united speaking between out of available jobs. A lot of people unemployed, people who don't wanna take those jobs. Whether this is their geographic region, their skill level, Our peoples is changing willingness to do things that they no longer willing to do, but Marcus Adjustable, there is probably a lot of learning ahead of us as to what we need to do they have a humane economy. In the face of all of this automation agree. I think we also need to take the stigma from blue collar jobs in actual I'll, say, actual work, because trained. As a lawyer, I heard it away with that because it is like a plumber reticules tongue with carefully about HIV, goes we're not going to automate plumbing anytime, soon ratify or worthy of our traditions right and if you built a,

any time in the last few years, which I have you can't get a roofer or a contractor because They are going I'll, hire anyone and they can't they can't. I hear people too a roof in the hot sun for three articles. Nobody, everybody wants to push paper like I did on Wall Street and get paid in. You don't go out at night. I don't want to get both sunburn. Well also, things like swinging. A hammer is a really complex, computational problem beyond it much more complex than turning a steering wheel like that. then pressing one of two petals. Let us three things! You gotta do to control a car and we do not have robots. They could do it not yet anyway, something like snaking. a wire through a wall is much more demanding and drive your car. We don't have suffered cars yet radiating to seek, as I think when people like you said on the right, not even the extreme right or saying like this is ridiculous to protect these jobs. A lot of it has to do with cultural stigma. Like my dad grew up mechanical engineer before that was working

blue collar jobs, to pay his way through school. My mom is a public school teacher and when they were like you, gotta get a good academic greedy because otherwise you're going to trade for money and duties, and now they're like. Why do people do the trades because every parent told us that we shouldn't do that's why they're it owes much done correctly. spend two underground and college then get out go out not to do anything Now, what am I going to do with my? I might agree, an average literature yeah. I should have thought ahead in also getting rid of the organ but of elevator operators? That's fine, but we're not. I don't know Oh, how many elevator operators are going well that was such for filling line of work that I was in. For that time be right. I mean it's not that they weren't happy or anything, but very few people are gonna say I was so filling in stimulating and we can keep those types of careers in those types of jobs over caring for elders and things like that, as opposed to automating, and we can automate yeah building roads or or whatever

nostalgia is overrated. I think you wrote something along the lines of criticising. The present is very often away criticising your rivals. I thought that was in sight for I can't take credit for Thomas Hobbes, set at first, took fair enough more than four hundred years ago, while you does it yet he was a kid observer of human nature. By yes, men can be with a living, not with a dead. They make sense right. It is easy to complain about how the leadership landed us here, Afghanistan's a great example, you know a lot of people want to forget about the long line of crappy decisions and leadership that led us to a very predictable disaster. What was the quote? Nothing is more responsible the good old days than a bad memory, and my close yes, Frank, Akron Pierce out was yes. So what about big issues today, like Syria, Afghanistan, weaker p, when China like surely these are outliers, but we also can't really dismiss these massive conflicts and genocides as blips

preparations in the data as far as things getting better around the world right, o absolutely not actually not, and of course, we have selected those examples, because they are the cases in which a pressure Jenny, a still occur today. Is that if you were to go back thirty years, while I was there be another, threaten all over Africa, Latin America and South EAST Asia. So we can be glad that the whisky just gave is short for then it would have been in thirty or forty years ago, but still be very concerned for their people who are suffering in the midst of those crimes. And I think that we all say was a callous to save your things are better than they used to be. I would obviously The other way around, knowing that the rate of wars and genocides in top receives can come down terrible involves us gives us the gumption to try to. Do the ones that are still around its not utopian. It's not romantic, us not hopeless. It's not seeing the glass is half full. I just as a matter of

Sonny personality is looking at the past and say well. Jesus wars could be a good they passed, they could be, and it now- and indeed its you're, even though one guy look pretty dark view of human nature. Nor could call me or automatic when it comes to how it makes people tack, but I actually think it's all romantic to think that the world could put an end to this war between nations, civil wars will be a lot harder because it doesn't take much to have a video on the way to get their hands on some weapons and call themselves the people's front for the liberation of whatever. But in terms of two countries facing each enable battle or tank battle or fighting each other? Cities is quite parcel but that don't go the way of a slave auctions and throwing verges into volcanoes. Yes happened yet, but it is moving in the direction yes buzz. Even when I think about it. One years old, I look back at the cold war and when I read again when I read history about it, I was too young and during the time to understand we had chemicals.

in North Korea. That place has an improved a ton, but the reason it so well know now is because it to completely ridiculous outlier- and there isn't another place like it were. Also that era South career was a military dictatorship rights. Now democracy Taiwan was also to, or was that earlier, no you're right Taiwan Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, were all military right wing dictatorships, as well as most of Latin America, to say nothing of Spain and Portugal when I was a college student were literally fascist dictatorship, so yeah, Franco, right, yeah, exactly frank, Salazar, not fascists in the sense of your son. The right of me but really fascist Emily. They call themselves fascist while I was in Western Europe, crazy. When I look at Spain, I remember looking at a book a couple of months ago, and it said something like have the Franco regime. The fascist Franco regime lasted until one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven, or something like that or eighty two and I was like that's a typo

it must be an item sixty two or nineteen fifty- and I looked in very that- was not a typo. Yet, on the serious Saturday night, liver, regulated running joke general love. A Franco is still that he had just just died, which marked the transition from fascism to democracy in Spain and those who demand Saturday night, like those of recurring lifeline. Now we get update that is so crazy to think about like imagine, announcing the death of Hitler in nineteen, seventy five and going wait a minute you're. No, no like that can't be it is well and Franco was an ally if it were Jerry. I say that's over Western Europe, which does not really is bad as Eastern Europe. He drew a line through, present Germany and everything to the east was I to area a communist dictatorship. It was very different from North Korea today. He lived in the former EAST Germany when I was in high school, it was being a West Germany at that point again, but my host parents- it was an exchange, didn't they

they were in the army and they were rolling tanks into outside Prague. Further. I can't remember what that was the Prague Spring Prague summit. I guess that's. Organizing sixty yeah called the rape of Czech Slovakia was the way we use. Magazines refer to it at the time Here again, I was nineteen sixty Asia is before you were born. Wasn't before I was born. Had I remember very well the occurred around the same time as the famous democratic convention, the Chicago police riot. Allow recently immortalized in the trial cargo, seven by which, by those also reminder that domestic violence, political violence in the United States as much as everyone thinks that it is reached new heights. Today there was much worse and await Sixtys and Seventys when they were bombings. Every week there were urban riots in which the police could shoot ten or fifteen people in again. The best explanation for the good old days is a bad memory, yet as bad as things Now they were worse than and despite the reputation for peace, love and flowers and

is a reality, was that they murder rates are going through the roof rates of rape and assault political violence, including bombings, publishing all the more than its goods here that, but also depressing because we look at how many we see now when it well wait. So that was happening all the time like that. I don't know how I feel about that for a while in euros happening lest we are going to back it s going to be the way to think about. It now, of course happening to marshal now, but less than them in. Thank you too, for that. So when it because one of the core I opened social media hard for me to believe that we are in a good places, a civilization, but that's me falling into the trap of thinking that things are bad or worse than they were before? So I guess the question be Has the media gotten more negative, or is that also an illusion of memory and is having to deal with it now? Enlightenment? Now I'm just saying well, we look at the way we did your time. Sensationalize is this story this morning

say what you doing the same thing, you're just right, cherry picking, anecdotes to actually have a graph, showing the results of an algorithm that did sentiment. Mapping in stories in the times in the sample of world media going back to the forties, and it's really through the media have gotten more negative tone of news coverage has gotten more negative Anderson, building biases in journalism that I have been exaggerated. Part of it. Just that, as with violent movie this environment drama, send a war movies in murder, mysteries,

negativity, negative emotions engage us. We're very were morbidly interested in what can go wrong in that effectively selection news items, but also the very nature of news, if you're presenting things that happened since yesterday or since an hour ago and media today that things can happen quickly, a building and collapse awry can break out. Some could shoot up school, but good things tend to build up gradually. A few percentage points a year which then compound, and so, if there's a reduction and global poverty is always happened on your last Thursday, and so they could be a headline. But if they, the news, followed the trends they could have had the headline hundred thirty seven thousand people escaped from extreme poverty yesterday every day for the last thirty years, but they never ever headline, and so a billion people escaped from extreme poverty. In no knows about it because it didn't happen suddenly enough to count is news, so that's how we can view the new cycle right with it? We have to look at

negativity bias and are natural, including towards is alarm, ISM is really the lion rustling in the bushes, rent, negative emotions and more powerful than positive, emotion sets or finding in psychology grant things that happen suddenly are more often bad things that good things. This is a kind of, in my last book enlightenment. Now I also go into the psychology in more detail in my new book rationality, which is, among other things, about how our sense of risk and probability and prevalence are driven by images and anecdotes and narratives and not by data, and so it can be surprised me think. Well what can be more boring. Looking at your door grass actually can be kind of your theory encourage uplifting, encouraging there. It is I find that to be both. That's one of them. reasons I wanted to make this conversation happen. Other it's been so long right, because this should change our hey and our beliefs, because there's something

I wish, I didn't have to bring out this really dumb example, but in the movie men in black right, we'll Smith, is running around he's got this tiny little gun these blowing things up with it and Timely Jones says calm down? What are you doing and Will Smith is like there's a level for alien running around New York and Tommy Jones is like calm down, there's always a level for alien running around New York and the reason that people don't panic. Learn everything down is because they don't know about it and I, Look around now and I go on so many people are burning thing down, because they think there's a level for alien running around New York. When really we got really most of the bad aliens and the they ones we have now are smaller and smaller and smaller and everybody was just acting like we have this crazy invasion going on one really. We should be kind of looking at the bright side instead and behaving accordingly yeah, we some of you the world is accurate, is one that we should have a real rose, colored, glasses or see. The glass is half full. We should beware of problems and we should So beware, progress, and the thing is that the conventional journalists-

is a non random sample of the worst things that happened in the last day. So it's not as if journalists and gives you accurate view. We're all your guess, you and overly negative view of the world on only positive view of the world leader. You wanna accurate view of the world problems and solutions. Listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Steven Pinker, we'll be right back special thanks to into it. The company powering products like Turbo tax, quick books meant and credit karma, this episode of sponsored in part by purple mattress. There are lots of gimmicks that promising.

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Secure our house, and I was like yes and then to inflate. I was I wait a minute our houses secure as any other house anywhere else, and what are we going? to do this is essentially more random than a lightning striking. This is like lightning striking you, while you're getting eaten by a shark right. Currently, it is did so rare that planning, for it is completely irrational. Even if the stakes are high and writing books, enlightenment, now or better angels. Rationally are inherently encouraging and it's almost contrary, and because of our propensity to focus on the negative. Why do we need accurate view of the world are. Why is this important? Well, it's for the same reason that it's better to see things Ventre, whereby folder hallucinate, namely the more you know about the world, a better equipped. or to act on its soil problems when they arise to figure out what works and what does want to protect the institutions in the laws and practices that have made life better, get rid of the ones that have made life worse.

The boy you know about the world a better. Could you are to act on it? Don't get me wrong? I agree with the idea that we should keep our eye and a positive view of the future because they think it. It also encourages us to solve the problems that we do have. Instead of I see part of this online for our hands up in the air. It's hopeless. Everything is screwed, there's no point we're all gonna blow up heaping fireball because of war, anything climb, change or extremism or pollution. Just about anything can be thrown up in the air and discarded in that, obviously not how we got to where we are now waiting yet, where we are now by haven't people go screw, it there's no way. solve any of these problems right. Provided that that is the value of appreciating the progress to be made so that we know that Problems are not an excuse to leave difficulties to our grandchildren to enjoy ourselves what we can to bring everything to the ground and hope they, whatever rise out of the ashes, is bound to be better.

Well, it's a way of understanding what can be done at its empowering in terms of what we do in the future, and this includes some of our tax problems out, including climate change. If we decide that can't be solved, then it won't be solved. If we decide that can be solved without necessarily be solved, certainly won't be solved if we don't even try to find the solutions. How did you get interested in this topic? And you know my gut sort of says Bell? Jewish parents problem super optimistic, maybe raised to feel extremely lucky because it all jokes aside, a lot of our jewish relatives, didn't make it very well in the twentieth century. You know, especially the middle yeah. Indeed, I was raised to appreciate how lucky I was. My parents were born in Canada, fortunately, but my grandparents,

one in Europe, they are emigrating to Canada, for which I retroactively than companies, but I had relatives who perished in the Holocaust. My father lived through the d, a great depression, ass, a child. He was briefly homeless. My grandmother had to cloth diapers that she would have to wash. In writing turn. My father was dirt poor and many of my friends were children of holocaust survivors. Others were children of refugees from the hungarian Revolution in eighteen. Fifty six, so You think of the great depression getting old or do you think of the Holocaust? Here I was lucky to grow up in a middle class suburb matter. Could understand why we are so rebellious why we are complaining about about the year unjust race assistance, you wanna just raises system gonna, look at their Germany and Poland. When we grew up yeah, I did have an appreciation of police from my parents generation of the relative good fortune that I had been brought up in a liberal democracy for me personally,

was a kind of security journey. Cognitive psychologist, I'm interested in how the mind works. What makes us take an interest in human nature, I'm interested in what I have ever Lucian prepared, the brain to allow us to do what we do to learn language, to see, to move our lives to form alliances and friendships and romances. And the existence of human nature is cutting, is controversial. Its historically been associated with the political right, because you can't change human nature, so any strong, policing, strong military, Strong moral codes, the left, more or less is more sympathetic the view that were a blank slate, just change, very culture change. The programming seems the teaching things. Apparently you can bring up kids with any,

if you want, I can delete more towards the existence of human nature. Although we are not a political conservative address, because their scope for one of the things that nature did give us, while the parts of human nature is an open ended ability to come up with new ideas and share them via language. That's what he thinks that language, which the thing I study the most asked to do. Every second signal- and I have uttered in this part session- You know I've been on top of these things before, but I can guarantee you that if you look at the transcript, none of the sentences would have been repeated verbatim. My memories of that good heaps of language allows us to share. hence if new ideas and among them could be ideas of how we reduce war and crime and racism and oppression. Now there is no guarantee that it will. But the argument They made is. If I were, you should keep things that work. Try out new ideas, criticized bad ideas. Then it's possible that way.

can improve our lot, even though we're stuck with human nature and then in better use of our nature, a term of course that I stole from Abraham Lincoln buried. Fifty idea perfectly, I show that it's not just a theoretical possibility has happened. Wars come down and rape and tell them Whenever you have the data, you plot longer time available graphs go down they didn't like me now. I broaden that two other measures, a human well being such as and the literacy and work hours and happiness so is partly sending off the accusation that a belief in human nature is depressing and fatal listing and reactionary and unease is nothing we can do to improve our lot. His cup pushing back against that idea that led me into I give you in progress, is funny should measure not a political conservative, because for I looked at something can remember what it was now, but you got London for just a minute with the sort of all right for saying. Look a lot of these,

originated in well read. This is not just sort of like tv torch wielding neck beards, which was the image that a lot of people on the left wanted to create an they felt in powered by things that are not discuss able in pubs I can, I think, you're almost like it. I can't win scenario because, even though your basing european the data on science. People are constantly trying to paint you especially for whatever reason, with a brush of one side or the other, I have you found not to be true. It is increasing danger in an era of political polarisation and academia, which you think article Did you read? I wish you good to construct this and unjust analyze. Each issue with the best tools available is in danger of becoming. We have a political monoculture, three captured by left wing, tribe and another case of them Yeah I got is far from the outrageously. You could possibly imagine you're, not only in a light. Macleod represent the case for liberal cosmopolitan humanism against nationalist populist reaction.

The thinking, but I'm on my record is the second biggest contributor to requested among harboured faculty, but yet there is a danger that just analysed things objective way. In the case of the all right, I can tell you that it is true that not all of them are taking towards rebuilding skinheads Gus. At least one a former students at Harvard University gravitated, the all right, well- why our horror use. One of the smartest students ever had and the point of that discussion that we ended up on Youtube and selectively edited is that if you have an atmosphere in which, as we will increase- and we do in academia who is it, things, you just can't say well, they're gonna be people who are part of a tribal Perceval jeez. What do I want? What are they freight off? If you get punished for saying something that must mean it, we should take a look at it, because if it were so preposterous, no one would bother suppressing in the first place media, something to it. I think that

academia has become something of an incubator of the all right by having such an atmosphere of repression, that people think that there are truths that are being suppressed, That terrifies me a little bit right, because I did a bit of a debunk of this fake documentary called plan damage, which was something like an anti vaccine, gas, Magnum Opus- and I went through the first half of it- and I just deconstructed a lot of the so called experts and things like that in people. one of the primary comments on there was, if it's not true, why isn't it allowed on Youtube and that's hard to our you're with a lot of ways. I mean it's hard to argue effectively. Obviously there are reasons for not disseminating miss. Formation and disinformation. But it's very hard to convince somebody that they're not allowed to watch something because it not true when usually they're, going to assume the opposite is the case the other has to be. There is no easy answer to hear what you do about material. That is often

and harmful because, as you say, simply censoring it can make it all the more appealing. On the other hand, you dont want ideas that are demonstrably dangerous to proliferate in, but in general, is probably better tat flood these on with reputations, then to suppress the original claim. I definitely agree with that. I'm sort of an anti the ship type when it comes to that. What's the the common phrases, you'd dishonor ties these bad ideas by shining a light on them, not by hiding them away. Sunlight is the best disinfectants and I think it s a mere was a justice Louis Brandeis who suffer. Perhaps while you're gonna, remembering who said what I say, I'm the terrible at that summit- it does make that are better funding. I guess that's death, it seems a bit unusual in many ways, just as far as humans are concerned, right to have an optimistic view of human progress and my miscarriage. rising your work is it to me? It seems very optimistic. I optimism

The sense of having their deficit frame of mind is being aware of facts that most people are unaware of the basque people is as a global poverty increase or decrease. People say its increase that Iraq, pessimistic snuff, addressing the glass is half empty IRAN, and so what people often characterizes optimism in my books. Just consists of data that no one is aware of. Very few people are seen the graph showing the estimated battle that, since nineteen forty five years you what what were the curve look like. I think we all over the map of young people But we do have that graph and I repented that graph and it's a striking graph, because it shows that the rate of death in warfare has crept outward, not nor a straight line. Durban ups and downs, most recently, the syrian civil war was something of an attack, but I was the reverse than the overall trend is unmistakably down people's go. No, it does not optimistic to say he's a fact that you just who never work.

and the reason you never wherever discuss. Newspapers tend not to put they tend to print stories. Bread and if there is a war than you'll, see the forage. If someone is counted all the places that don't have worse all the zero that go into that faction, then there's no place to find it in the papers. Feather is increasingly people become more interested in data there's an excellent website called our world in data where you can look up data on pretty much anything that your curious about when people say what can I do to have a son look on the world poverty There are new states for positive news, and those are some of those who actually

but embarrassed being aware of trends, as opposed to headlines is a way of getting a better appreciation and, as it happens, it gives you a more positive appreciation about is not designed to do that that just the way the facts are going, there should be that surprising. I mean there's nothing magical about human progress is not sufficient. Mystical forest carrying us upward. There is no such force just that you are iphones, get more features and tedious get better in our cars, get more fuel efficient in and out by a better sound systems and but when this I think I human ingenuity as apply to reducing violence against women are reducing war. That doesn't always succeed, but sometimes it ass, it seems like we tend to think of western societies, is always on the brink of collapse. But people been saying that for centuries right? I kept thinking, because I remember having this thought sometime in cash- legend going man we're just that everything is just Helena handbag right, as I'm becoming an adult,

and the more I researched it and, of course, later on found your stuff, because I keep telling people like aren't you concerned that everything is going into the toilet inside you gotta read this work right, we're safer than we ve never been born. When coming to an end for a long time. Indeed- and there were a good book by other Herman, called the idea of decline in western civilization to chose it, starting probably with IRAN ethic movement in the nineteenth century, there's been a whole parade of people saying we're on the verge of collapse. It's our societies decadent and corrupt, and by way- and these are the all stars the academic curriculum you're. You major the liberal arts in your garage, Schopenhauer Nature and add a baby. The boys and one sour puss after another convinced and they'll convince your back in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that everything was on the verge of collapse. He touched that's a little bit earlier, but the arts of safety and quality of life is on the rise. Why does it seem like rationality? Is in decline? It there's no correlation

they're always at the same type of illusion, is an observation even accurate, yes, not clear in its in decline. In fact, I sometimes think that there is greater in already have rationality, there's a lot of idiocy out their conspiracy theories and fake news and quick yours, paranormal WU another hand, biomedical science is astonishing and what it is accomplished. The electronics nanotechnology area cases of rationality to domains of human activity that were formerly just ruled by hunters and experts in intuitions like evidence driven policing money ball in sports. Looking at data instead of folk lore evidence basin,

Sl feedback informed psychotherapy, her love areas in which we really are getting smarter and there's something I conspiracy theories where we ve always had conspiracy theories, one attempt to quantify them over time. My Josephine Frisky seemed to suggest that the level of conspiracy theorizing had changed in almost a hundred years and where she looked at evidence for this go to only went up to about two thousand ten Sonia when I went out the last ten years, and yet the arteries dataset police up till then there was the protocols the elders of Zion Verity Illuminati, there's the trilateral. Fishing in the nineteen seventies were always vulnerable. Conspiracy the rising was only vulnerable to paranormal Fleming FIFA Religion is all about, and superstition and fake news

What are the miracles in the Bible, but vacant news about paranormal phenomena is probably the default in human affairs that unless you have a well established scientific and journalists- infrastructure, archival records and government agencies keeping data scientists trying to prove disprove Papa seasoned editors trying to filter out fake news? That's just what we naturally backslide too. It is good that we do have this beach head of rationality, but the natural condition of humans, at least in the public sphere and ideas that we share, is an awful lot of nonsense. Does a larger package, but do you think we're getting smarter as the society is, that of question it's possible to answer but see, there's one sense in which we have been legally the so called Flynn affect named after the philosopher. James squid were IQ, scores have increased for about a year

three I'm starting to level off in the countries where it's been going on the longest suggests that northern western Europe is still taking place in poor countries. The world and possibly still United States today is a funny sense in which were literally getting smarter in terms of measured, I q again, as I mentioned in certain domains, we ve been getting smarter in technology and biomedicine in the best of journalistic practice. Evidence based policy, we're getting smarter, but there's says stolen off a lot of stability out there. This is the Jordan Harbinger share with our guest Steven Pinker, we'll be right back. This episode, sponsored in part by into it the company powering products, I turbo tax, quit books meant and credit karma into it works for what you work for, and whether that's a small business or just you as an individual, into its innovative products, make men

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for time and enjoyment out of what we ve already got now. Today's guess Steven Pinker we're talking about why it's the best time to be alive right, we're safe. Right now we ve got the best health care we ve ever had, depending on the country a living in. It's really a great time to be out there, but there more opportunity than anywhere else at any time in history. According to pretty much all the data that we have a lot of people, it's really easy for us to get nostalgic for a past that never was or get bogged down by what's challenging us now I mean we have real challenges here, we're in a pandemic alert, The negativity on the rise will more divided than ever, but it's still the best time to take fortunately, and live a great rich life and hope that the show is helping you do that skilfully. Crafted enjoy responsibly, Glenn, fitting twenty twenty one imported by William Grant and sends ink New York New York. This episode is also spot. in part by ignite ransom, where attacks are happening more and more frequently- and I didn't episode on this episode- five forty two to show why

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mission with Steven Pinker, he I wonder, could certainly we're getting knowledge and science is moving forward etc. Do you think we're act more intelligent laming. Thankfully we have systems checks, balances whatever to make up for the better thinking of individuals like science, but those normal seem We breaking down a little bit like authoritarian regimes, loved it dismantle those because they don't want those checks and balances, Zack right and authoritarian regimes through, on this information and propaganda and getting people so confused. About what reality is that they may as well accept what the government tells them. How that is they try to disable the mechanisms of independence checking if everyone saying whatever they want, then people with guns. You say things are the ones that one has to listen to hear so, progress

isn't, necessarily inevitable, though right I mean what about something like the dark ages or is not just a total anomaly. Progress is not inevitable, for in fact, progress is precious and it only comes about when you have the results of an enlightened. That's why I come to my previous book enlightenment now, calling for the ideals of the enlightenment to be cherished and safeguarding the safe, guarded and extended our national conditions for there not to be progress. Actually progress is kind of her away, than usual state of affairs, and we ve got a measure for to continue depends on science depends on knowledge depends on humanism, that is on our setting as our goal, the well being of people. If we fall back into a trial wasn't and nationalism. Then progress made, I did, you ever have been reversals. All of the grass tat I present. Very few of them are just stay. They say a monotonous, line with no wiggles. There are always local reversals in the case of a war, for example there.

Say I'm your bulges corresponding to be yet IRAN, Iraq, war and the soviet invasion of Afghanistan, syrian civil war. I think I get worse case of crime the crime. The country had a freak out, no six from the sixty seven ideas where there's a big spoken, violent crime we just lived through and were still living a reversal of the decline of crime in the last year and a half or so the reasons to think it'll be temporary, that it will be a blip and not a permanent reversal, but it has reverted to the last year and a half what about some of the imminent threats to our progress here, such as climate change, a I joining us here at some point, it seems like we It just rely on human thinking at some point. Where are we do after allowing even thinking where rely on re aliens, I'm gonna, save ass gods, Mackenzie, thus Elaine I've discussion of fears of runaway. I wish I could grow misplaced,

we can worry about what we're gonna do with a jobs they get automated by. I, what are all the truck drivers gonna do in forklift operators, but I don't think we have to worry about an ally turning us into raw materials as collateral damage, which is a kind of science fiction scenarios people to worry about climate change, we do have to worry about, it is it's. A serious threat is one we have not although not right now I tried for solving it. I think we could solve it, but only if we discover a lot of things that we have not yet discovered and try to implement them. Scalable unlimited, clean energy ways of making steel and fertilizer and cement without co2 emissions ways of flying planes without net co2 emissions. All of these are unsolved. I don't think they're on the solvable, but we yet song back. In the day. You know hundreds of years ago, or maybe even more recently, smarter people may be succeeded

or in a darwinian sense and had more children that were also smart and had resources and succeeded society is changing. I dont know too many folks, That would argue now that it's the smart people and the most educated, the most resourced, having the most kids- and this might be a ridiculous notion, but do you think this could reverse the collective intelligence certain societies and waiting for the emails implying that that was a nazi thing to say, but I should be able to ask this question right. You are corrected goading back. This is one of taboo topics and was called disenchant X, the opposite of eugenics. That is the fear that, as the Wessex, how have more offspring the mean we're intelligence of the population. Over many generations will go down only by saying that in theory it could happen that I think it or leave it at that.

yeah. I also don't mean to imply that people who have more kids in our lower on the socio economic scale are all dumb or genetically inferior. What I mean is one that is a big difference between poverty and la right intelligence. Yes, right good! I'm put that on the record for the people that are like warming up their keyboard fingers right now for the more like a catch, forks and tortures. Yes, yes that but on, what are your twitter quail idea on that same joke? When we politicize issues, we get dumber and less and less intellectually honest. I guess his a more accurate wait. A phrase this right when I see the stuff out there about climate change or vaccine misinformation or just about any politicize topic. It's like we can communicate anymore. It doesn't work because ten to disagree with somebody and then be like, while your evil and an idiot instead of having any sort of rational discourse with these people, is not clear how much worse, Scott

because I was always something goes through a people that Thea Guy back in the seventies. There were, in fact back in the fifties: experiments showing that you here you show a video of a football game between Harvard at Yale and ask people to count the number of of dirty tricks. Infractions of penalties in the Harvard stupor see lots of infractions body else team and vice versa, and that also happens with those violent demonstrations. He said to have an abortion clinic fed. They left sees a lot of Ireland sensation forever over. The demonstration for admitting gay people is the military. Now the rights is a lot of violence from the left. That's gonna remained, but get people politics makes stupid in the literal sense that we flood logic problems. If the content goes against our beliefs, their experiments, a few am, if racism

has been eliminated. Then fermented action is no longer necessary syllogism. I want you to you is a logic test. Just to answer based on literally implies what what is a sound inference, not what's tour false. So, given the soldiers with racism has declined, affirmative action is not necessary. Racism has declined. Therefore, affirmative action is not necessary. Is that a valid inference and liberals will say no and consumers will say yes in that case consumers rashly correctly disavowed in France. It may not be a sound it, for, instead of the Paris may not but in terms of its sheer logic. Yes be leads to you, but you flip the content to say say about your gun control and now it's the right wingers, who were the guns, caps and left wingers, where the stones, and so on, with statistical problems,

well, the bearing on the content. People will misread the statistics to go in there prefer direction is often the most the saddest who are most likely to be seduced by the answer that they want to be correct, based on political inclinations, so your politics does make a little quite literally make a stupid that were more poorly, quick for statistical and logical reason? So if people today are basing their beliefs and tribal affiliation as opposed to reason or logic or even science, and in fact the belief in science it all might even be seen as one form of tribal loyalty by members of other tribes. How do we get people to form the leaves based on reason and logic and rational thinking, as opposed to a group thing and

rival of really I mean, is it even possible to do this as such is contrary to all human nature period? Armenia's human nature pushes against that, but that doesn't mean their resistance is futile. Human nature makes us believe in magic and human sacrifice and ghosts spirits, for we can learn them It is clear that is the tools of rationality. I think, should be taught their prerequisite everything else or dismissing way. We teach a refugee camp and reading because how to reading he Catherine else here how to think probabilistic waited not confuse causation correlation, you're gonna be confusing.

Everything you do, and so I think, actually part of the educational system have. You should be part of our norms in terms of what counts as acceptable discourse that in political debates and academic debates, a newspaper up ads, they should be less about ethics, that you gonna, win at all costs and war. Acknowledge your uncertainty, listen to contrary evidence, Derbyshire argument on anecdotes to confuse causation correlation. I they should be disregarded. The norms of just everyday, sensible conversation, same waited known, people, don't tell ethic jokes or homosexual jokes, the way they did. When I was a kid I just gotta mortifying, maybe it would be a member of polite society. He stood at that we should try to make a conversation more rational, but also we make an average deep politicize size, science and policy and other debates and I've had this even a hard time to people say the National Academy of Sciences where their official pronouncements

just sound like where right out of a left wing Postmodernism the English department. I just a verbiage that you expect from political left hand. May I point out you just branding science as a left wing enterprise and people on the right are gonna, say well? Why should we trust anyone coming at a science is here to stay and other political faction that I think there should be an effort to make science give less of a left wing brand if we wanted to be taken seriously by the right. making science political is actually one of the biggest problems that I'm sorry Right now, and communication online out speak more about that. After this Four people are interested, but this seems extremely dangerous, because now we can't science to be like the one thing where everybody went well, the experiments have been run, and here we are in hydrogen and oxygen may water, and now you have people being like re run, the experiments I dont believe it, and if we just kind of Kant, regrets that far safely

I hope not, and then I got to say that my fellow scientists are not helping things. I wonder if you speak of science and society getting smarter or not. I wonder if you think we have too much. Brain power and talent, wrapped up in, for example, the financial sector, the legal sector- I worked in legal sector. There are so many very, very, very smart people- and I thought wow and all we're doing is like managing, really big spreadsheets, and you know it. Natural law were making these we're trying to get a financial info, half second faster than the competition- were suing companies, there's people that are patent trolling, it's just an inefficient waste of human, capital, in my opinion, and I would love to see more top mines solving real problems, Frank. Instead of creating imaginary financial entities to shuffle financial instruments around, tell me about it. I'm part of the machine, the factory that turns out the yeah, I suppose intellectual where did they get snapped up by the finance by and by you, I'm afraid course to Harvard undergraduates? Yet we crank

they need to know deadly squat about business and finance as a result of the courses they teach for they get snapped up by Mere Goldman Sachs in and that we can see in how much good they can their brainpower. Jobs decided please debatable. I agree with you that there is a missile occasion of intellectual capital in both the financial and legal sectors and its desperately needed in a lot of other sectors like you were agreed energy like Alzheimer S. Research like taxis, when are you were on the same wavelength, their inclosing here? How do we deal on a very practical level with folks that you seem absolutely impermeable to some of these enlightenment ideas? Fact fulness right, The actual honesty it seems important that people understand the progress. We are making sure that we get less of these just wanna watch the world burn types of folks, radical extremists catastrophe. Is that a word? It should be aware of the areas where it is our great I'll get perfect. How do we deal with those folks yeah? I think, this nose turnkeys aloof,

louder home their son, but we felt we can deal with. We can try to create fewer of them in terms of ideas that people get exposed to in schools. Replenished as the older ones die. There are always people at the fringes were like dyed in the wool committed to the conspiracy theories of the need for chaos that there may be on the fence and they can be picked off one at a time. The people who are in the midst of the moment, Sometimes when their influencers change their mind if they do or if you can find people who are considered to be heroes within a particular movement and recruit them to spread the message, then people will go with weapons. their leaders tell them you. I think it would have been great for western allowed down from the queen credit for vaccines for operation wearied, like he's the blow harmonies bribing until. Finally, I won't have to get all of his followers vaccinate. Yes, one on represent yet one or two percent, because you'd have

a lot of people who trust science they would just get vaccinated. May what sort of a vow trumped didn't do anything he might have funded it, but grumble grumble grumble and they would have gotten the shot. But then we- wouldn't s really have this. Passively politicize reaction to the vaccine, which is The least we should be aware of political isolation as a major driver of science, acceptance or denial and you're. My fellow scientists have been very, very slow, realizing it. One person said it's like the way they tat american tourists sometimes do with foreigners. Another country they just speeches there slowly and then distinctly hoping that somehow it again, Having said this knock, I welcome you. Gonna be clever ever stop making the problem worse by branded ourselves as part of a political faction and try insofar as it's possible to recruit spokespeople from a diversity of political stance is who are still scientifically belligerent, unwillingly

spend Messages Steven Pinker? Thank you so much for coming on. The show this has been is is wonderful, as I hope it would be, and I really appreciate your time promote greater transparency on drug if you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sync your teeth into with Navy Seal and veteran Shaka willing, like you, VE, met I heard him before leadership is the most important on the battlefield. Every characteristic that you could have for leader be taken to extremes The most important urges that I thought of all time, which is humility, could be humble as leader you ve got always look. Ok, how can I improve what I need to listen to other people well, as elite You can actually be too humble where you don't stand up when somebody's tell you to do something that you don't think is right, but you like hey, I'm humble someone do in any way of you, don't think it's right here actually shouldn't do it, every positive characteristic can be taken to the extreme that it becomes a negative, and that is why, as a leader, you have to be balanced b or get humbled is a term that I I love

tell us what this means the nature of the world, as if you're not hope you are going to get hobbled. So that's it the attitude to half its good attitude. To always think I need to stay humble, but the dichotomy. This doesn't mean that your completely passive and there are times as humble is you should be. There are times when you need to stand up and say no, the Mayflower joke about it. Sometimes the most we get to sleep with you in the field of funding myself at daybreak, auto moved up. It's probably was about eleven o clock in the morning and well said they were both asleep. degrees, four hundred ten degrees and where we were both asleep and clearly. This was the first time we have to rest in toys for forty eight hours and you want to sleep anywhere on concrete floors and stairwells and whatever else for more with joy

including why we should stop being the easy button for those we manage and ITALY and the concept of leadership capital how to build it. Wendy use it and when not to use it check out episode. Ninety three right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. glad. I was finally able to make that happen. Him and I've been going back and forth for years trying to make this conversation work. As mentioned on the show, we are tilted towards processing negative information, the negativity bias we ve talked about it on the show, many times, So we do notice it more and remember it more, but this also leads us to process risk poorly. We err on the side of caution. Gotta goes back to the old lie.

in the bushes evolutionary theory right afar ancestors heard something Russell in the bushes and got scared. It didn't matter if it was a bird or a lion because they reacted with fear, but if they didn't reacted, all wealth, they got eaten right. So this is involved in us, but it does cause us to process risk in an inefficient way. Of course, this is also aid and abet it by the availability, her wrist x or the news focuses on negative events, mostly because of negativity bias, which is a self reinforcing cycle right, a vicious cycle. So we end up thinking that the world is much worse than it is because of these types of bias and, of course, decline is secularism looking at the past and thinking wasn't it so great and looking at the future and thinking how it's going to be so awful read. These are all human cognitive biases that come into play here. That causes to view are world in a way that, frankly, just is an accurate. I was glad that was Stephen. We talked about this a little more offline if he had any thoughts on the quality of our communication. These days right, it certainly does seem like that is worse than it was in the past in past. seems, like things were more civil. Now online discussion is horrifying, even if we sort of

I went to look for in terms of russian Botz and trolls in the regular folks. We were talking to every day now can be the horrible online. I think MIKE Tyson said that online communication is made worse by people who would never have the guts to say something like that to your face or if they did would get punished in the face now Just have people letting out their anger with the innocent strangers online part due to an anonymity Clinton Emerson, who was on the show who studies, russian and chinese influence operations online. He is a policy of not in Jeanne with anonymous accounts at all. If it's a fake, name or a non real name, or the account does no background if he will just block and ignore not a bad policy for those of us that have trouble dealing with folks online, especially trolls I feel like me not using Facebook anymore, limiting a lot of online contact in certain places. help me learn more about how to stay sane using social media and frankly, it helped me integrate this stuff into my life and a healthy way. I interact with all of you, I'm linked in my answer

Indians, but I dont use a seat. I don't scroll through Instagram Idle scroll through Facebook. I use it as an inbox and that's literally, it were just at the beginning of this curve. In his apparent I think about this all the time I used to hear that tv would make families never again in the telephone would make families never talk again. The ancient Greeks actually thought books were going to be toxic. Because people wouldn't have to memorize information. Imagine thinking that reading is gonna, be the undoing of civilization, so social media. have its ups and downs. I think we're early in the curve when it comes to this. I haven't given up on a completely, but man does it seem, like our communication has taken a nosedive That's one of the reasons that I love podcast right. We can have deep, intelligent conversations that are longer than a few tweets long or a back and forth where people are trying to prove themselves on social media. So I hope you enjoy the show I enjoyed talk with Stephen, of course links all his stuff. All his books, especially will be in the show, not please use our website links if you buy books from any guest on the show it does help supporter

worksheets, for the episode or in the show, not transcripts or in the show notes and there's a video of this interview going up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan, harbinger dot com, Slash Youtube. Speaking of answer. I mean social media, I'm at Jordan, Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or you can hit me on Linkedin. I'm teaching them how to connect with great people. on line and off and dig the well before you get thirsty and our six minute networking course. The courses free, I don't sell any thing, at least not yet just go to Jordan, Harbinger, dotcom, slash, coarse and realize most of the guests who here on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course come join us you'll, be in smart company where you belong, the shows created in association with POD cast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jays Sanderson Robert for

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