Joshua Fields Millburn (@JFM) is best known as one half of The Minimalists, where he and Ryan Nicodemus write about living a meaningful life with less stuff. Their latest book is Love People, Use Things: Because the Opposite Never Works.
What We Discuss with Joshua Fields Millburn:
- How Joshua found that having more stuff -- including more money -- really isn't the key to success or happiness.
- The average American throws away 81 pounds of clothing every year when 95% of that can be reused or recycled. How can embracing minimalism help solve this problem?
- 'Tis the season -- to ask yourself if you're overdoing it on consumption and indulging in a little too much when just a little might go a long way.
- Why being a minimalist involves more than just waking up one day and getting rid of a bunch of things you don't need -- it's a process of constant evaluation.
- How can you allow yourself to let go of things that have sentimental value?
- And much more...
Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/594
Sign up for Six-Minute Networking -- our free networking and relationship development mini course -- at jordanharbinger.com/course!
Missed our conversation with Daniel Pink in which we discussed the psychology, biology, and economics behind scheduling for optimal effect (including sleep) — and why your ideal time to get something done may widely differ from someone else’s? Catch up with episode 63: Daniel Pink | When Is the Best Time to Get Things Done?
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Special thanks to our sponsor Glenfern single malt scotch whisky. You ve heard me talking about lymphatic. We got there stag icon right there on the show art Glenfern he's got a new.
Do you work that aims to challenge the notion of what it means to be wealthy and live a life of riches. Glenn fitted, believes that be
on the material. A life of wealth enriches is about family community values and fulfilling work. These are the values that lead glenfern to become the world's leading single malt scotch whisky. This week's guest, Joshua Fields, Milburn Eggs,.
qualifies these values and you'll find out. Why, later on, in the episode more from our partners at Glenn fitted later in the show coming up next,
on the Jordan Harbinger show. You mentioned freedom focus. Energy are skill,
These are all other resources that we have and their much more limited, especially our time right. You can get a refund for the thing that you purchase if you're discontented with it
moral, but there is no refund for Miss spend time.
Welcome to the show, I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show what he called the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have indeed conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies and said
colleges, even the occasional music, mobile, arms, trafficker or underworld figure, and each episode turns our guests. Wisdom into practical advice.
Can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. If you
to the show, or you want to tell your friends about it. We ve got these episodes starter packs. This is a great place to start these, our favorite emphasis
The organised by topic. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the shelf. Just visit, Jordan, Harbinger Dotcom, slash, start to get started or to help somebody else get started. And, of course I always appreciate it. When you do that,
a friend of mine in front of the show Joshua Fields Milburgh? Otherwise,
as the minimalist or half of the minimalist, these guys,
everywhere they ve written a bunch of books, they been Netflix, you probably seen them their lives, documentaries really
took off online as you here in the show
he had a corporate job. He really earned all of the money could possibly want, grew up poor finally made it realized. It was still miserable, maybe even more miserable, then before us
when they get into the details of that journey and
having more stuff, including more money, really isn't the key to success or happiness. And I know this is not a major surprise to any view bright. We ve talked about this before to some extent, for I know this Congress
takes things in a bit of a different direction, there's impractical,
I was on minimalism that I think are actually not intuitive Anne and pretty interesting and useful. Plus. I thought now is a good time of year to have a conversation,
val fulfilment and minimalism, especially during this season, where we tend to overdo it, on consumption of pretty much every size and flavour and indulge
our family and children in the same always fun conversation
Joshua. I hope you enjoy it and take value from it as well. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great creators, others thinkers every single week because of my network, I'm teaching you how to build your network for free
over at Jordan, Harbinger, dotcom, slash course. People in relationships, one of the things that you problem,
you shouldn't be minimalist about by the way most of the guests on our show subscribed to the course and contribute to the course so come join us we'll be smart
many where you belong now: here's Joshua Fields, Milburgh, you know what the thing is. People have a love hate relationship with all the stuff. They have. I'm sure you thought about. This is probably one of the core tentative. What you
think about all the time? But people really do have a love hate relationship with all of the items in their house
I recently moved into this new house, like than the last year, we had a storage unit for some of them
duff, and I will tell you I thought you guys when I was unpacking that storage and it because when we unpacked at, I went hey what's in this box. In my wife said, I don't know it says plates unless it, but we have plates. Do you feel like we're short on plates and she's like
so we looked in there and sure enough. It was like. Oh, these are like all different kind.
is unlike some of whom are kind of like chipped, middle and adjust. It was one box after another of like waits, but do we have waits yet these are
waits, but they're the same amount of weight on the way right. Yes, you know it's just that one a metaphor to all the way that we have a bitter weighing down right right.
right slash getting me build per month like in California enough for her
four dollars for like a garage size, storage unit that has a baby bouncer, that's
same as the baby bouncer. We have in the garage but different colors, more like sort of ripped, but it could be taped. You know like. Why would you
tape it just get another one away. We already have one other deservedly beginning with you, because you- and
I, and who you do your projects, whether your business partner, your hetero life partner. I know he has taken a peak, guys call it we don't. Even we ve been best France's were fat little fifth, greater, so yeah. I just call him my best friend. Ok, that's fine as not it's funny, but we work as projects together the minimalist, though the broader project and whether that's our pod cast or the Netflix Films or the box that we put out, we ve known each other
thirty years now, that's a long time to still like someone, let alone what
that's right, you're, assuming a lot yeah, that's true! That's true! It could be
you are here alone. I notice that yeah, that's a good point. There could be more of a story. Tell me about
you got interested in this because you didn't. You grew up in a way
would probably not
signal, minimalism at least not willing minimalism, but as a group, why? Our group really poor, Soda Ryan sort of on literally on opposite sides of the railroad tracks. But it was just the two different poor sides of the railroad tracks goes on. Food stamps, government assistance and we were pre. Discontented, has grown up his lot of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, physical abuse in the house that we grew up in as well that the two different homes we grew up in and I thought the resource so unhappy growing up. You just don't know any better as well. We didn't have any money rain, and so, when I turned eighteen I sort of went out. I got that entry level corporate job, but at best
next decade, climbing the corporal ladder by my late twenties. I had a sort of achieve everything I ever wanted. The six figure salary, the luxury cars, the closets full of of designer closed, even having the big suburban house with more toilets than people ass though it had, although the trappings of consumer society,
consumer culture. I was living the american dream, but it turns out that that wasn't my dream and it in a way it took getting everything
I thought I wanted to realise the maybe everything I've ever wanted was an actually what I wanted at all the fancy term, for that is the medic desire, and it just basically means that all the things that we want, or actually things that other people tell us. We want mother, that's corporations or marketers or peer groups or religions or or just society at large. They tell us that we want certain things. That's what produces consumerism right. Yes, humours is just the ideology that if I buy things it's going to make me happy or more complete, but as you and I know that the opposite is often true, they are things incomplete US
in more ways than one that's interesting. It does make sense of that's why, when you d clutter you have this feeling that people say I have a feeling of peace and when you watch it you your eyes and then you try and do it yourself and you like, oh yeah, it does veal. I will tell you again:
when two goodwill or Salvation Army and dropping off the trunk and back seat
and then going back to your house loading it up and doing it again is one of the most satisfying kind of gratifying experiences that I've had in years and it's like, if giving away stuff
I paid money for feels this good there's a big problem in getting that stuff in the first but like. Why does it feel better to get rid of it than it did to get it in the first place? That's the question rent that opens up so much what so many things happen to re so where we buy things to make us happy that doesnt work sorts I well. I need more of the things to make me happy right right back my twenties, I bought my first Lexus and that didn't do it for me, so I needed a second Lexus and then, of course, the bigger house didn't do it for me
the walk in closets full of Brooks brother suits and ties and thresholds, and by the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rank Jordan. The problem is thinking they're going to make me happy. It's that whole pursuit of happiness thing happiness can't be pursued, can merely be uncovered, and so, when I was
all these things it was like our best make me happy. I guess more will make me and if that doesn't do it then maybe more even more will make me happy and then the other side of that, though we have to be careful with this.
letting go doesn't bring you everlasting bliss either it simply makes room to figure out what is important. So quite often people come to us. I will call into the man was podcast another hey. You know I saw declaring I felt like good at first, but how come I got rid of all mice, excess stuff and I'm not just in a happy all the time how yeah or the isn't that the same thing
That's a different kind of consumerism. It's the constant, letting go there's even a clinical term for this. Its spartan is about really z,
instead of materialism, is our that, as is the opposite of hoarding really yet, and so there five stages affording I'm sure we could talk about that. But we all know what the horrors are, that we see our tvs of the state for stage five orders: they they have you just entire houses full of stuff, but most of US investor in the western world early stage one quarter is we have problems letting go of our access to. We have problems. Let him go of the things that aren't adding value to our lives. We still cling to those things, but the others.
that is their smartness, who can't hold on to anything in the starts with the staff in their barely own anything there are unable to hold on the things, but then materializes in their relationships in their careers, and you find it's like a lot of people who are addicted the self sabotage they have. This sort of spartan IST side of things are both o c d in terms of the OECD Spectrum, obsessive compulsive disorders, some
we can't let go some people can hold on and really minimalism allows us to identify one of the things that are appropriate to let go of, and what is appropriate for me to hold onto has minimalism, isn't about depriving myself. You know we're not the deprivation nests people often think you maybe you're on your own money.
Ariana Cetak, if you're a minimalist, but that's not really it at all. If you come to my house, it's not like I own nothing, everything I own serves a purpose or brings me joy and in the ex
that is out of the way you're living. I look like the apple store. Is that it's that within me,
I think a lot of people really think it means minimalist means like you. Just have white surfaces and brushed aluminum, Oliver, your house and like there's. No, nothing is sitting out. If that's what you're into. I think that's great.
I've got a wife and daughter, and so what was appropriate for my life when I first started minimalism is, is actually different. Now that's one of the things I wish join. There was this list. I could give you hear. The huh
dread items. If you own them, then you're a minimalist. If you have a kid, you add fifty items. If you have a spouse,
got another hundred items, and here they are you'll, live in perfect harmony with the world, but of course the things that advice.
My life may not add value to yours and vice versa, and so the things that are access to me may be perfectly appropriate for you and your family, but the key here is the things that were appropriate for me. A decade ago may not be appropriate today. So it's a constant sort of questioning these things that we bring into our life. Do I still need this too? I still get value from it.
and if not giving myself permission to let her go yeah. It's I cleaned out. My mom's been dad basement when I went back to Michigan a few weeks ago- and this was this
It made me think of you guys, because my mama,
like hey, you, got a lot of stuff down there and I walked down there and it was like old clothes that I thought were really cool. I mean there there's stuff that I didn't even where that much, because I wanted to keep it in good,
condition for later, and it's like. Twenty years later, I go. Oh here's this, like mock turtleneck with a solution that I thought was so damn cool that I wore it sparingly to keep it. Look.
in fresh and clean, and now it's like stinky and smells like Dustin Basement
and my mom had kept all of
School you'll relate to this had kept all of my schoolwork from like kindergartens. Probably is
seventh grade or sixth grade, or something like that, and it was just like so I opened the box and all these pieces of tissue paper fly out and little like bits.
It just smells like crayons? You know when you open it, because it's hundreds of pages of scribbles and drawings that say like mom on it or something in it. It was cute, but I quite keep it right because it is
what that stuff go because their sentimental value there, but its actual material item is not doing anything, and so I
quite know how to handle it. So what I did as I took photos of everything, and then I threw it away so digital clutter now here you did,
that's what I often recommended the same thing I do my mom died. That's how I stumbled into minimalism was I to go down to Florida to start dealing with all of her stuff
not realize very early on. There was a dealing with it actually had to do something with these things right and, as you mentioned, everything sort of had was imbued with sentimental value. Now, nothing's, inherently sentimental right in the things that are sentimental to you, I'm going to look at those and say I don't want those at all. So why is something sentimental? It's because
we tell ourselves that our memories are in are things with your mom held onto all of that those drawings and paperwork because she was holding onto the memories they represented by. She was holding onto a piece of you, but of course you were never inside those boxes right, so you can keep those boxes for years or decades. There's no memories inside those boxes are memories aren't in our things, are memories are inside us. Now, of course, sometimes are things that you just mentioned. Are things can trigger the memories inside us? So, instead of just holding on to all the things you can take photos of any of those things that you want to let go of, and you know by not selfishly clinging to the x.
That's a lot of people can still give value from. Maybe not your seventh grade math homework, but there are a lot of things that we own you. The average american Housel has three hundred thousand items, and God who had who did that research? That's a horrible project. You can imagine just going around counting people start by now, durable and wouldn't be wonderful. If all that they, those things, are bringing us happiness, contentment, joy, tranquillity, bliss but they're doing the opposite, their causing debt stress anxiety
overwhelm in their getting in the way of the things that are actually important. Here's a we're paradox of minimalism as a minute
unless I own far fewer things, obviously, but I actually get
much more value from my things then, before I was a minimalist and all of my things or watered down with a bunch of useless trinkets that were just getting in the way a lot
times. You know on your on your podcasting in your documentaries and things like that. You mention in your books. You mention that having stuff causes, anxiety and
I think everyone kind of knows that, but also, why is this, because it doesn't really make sense that me having a lot of stuff. Why wouldn't I just feel prepared for any
particular occasion or occurrence. If I have a lot of stuff, why does it? Because it does make me feel we
having it it's like it's almost like it's, not the natural state of things for humans to have so much
happen, so there is some sort of evolve desire to not. I feel like it's taking up psychological space, but I dont quite understand
Why have you looked into this at all? Absolutely so our material possessions are a physical manifestation of what's going on inside a certain. We start dealing with that external clutter. If there is external cotterets, because there's also a lot of internal color mental clutter, emotional color, spiritual clutter, relational club
right, career, clutter, calendar clutter. All of these other,
there in our lives. And what are we try to? Do? We try to pacify ourselves with the things it's not even the things that are making us anxious. It's our expectations are happiness, your happiness. My happiness is moderated by my expectations, and so we expect
the things to do something for us, but of course the thing we want is never the thing we want it's not about acquiring the physical object, the material possessions. It's about that feeling. We think it's going to give us and here's the pernicious part about it. It actually does give us that feeling up front and we prize that feeling. We value that feeling that burst of pleasure, but we mistake that pleasure for well being and into a discount all of the other negative feelings it gives us in the aftermath. We don't think what the cost of our things like. If you go to the store in the thing you want to buy, is a hundred dollars. You say all the price of the things: a hundred dollars right, but there's all these additional costs like storing the thing is you mention having a storage locker for our things,
we're having a larger house or a more space to hear it. We sort of have these basements irreligious mausoleum of stuff right, say a good word. Yet it really is a miserly like yours, everything I wore in middle school. What are you doing wisest earlier,
and then we could try to organise the things organizing, actually, the problem. As you know, the container store by all of these clutter coffins right because that's what they are as well and we bury Arthur
in these clutter coffins and yes, we ve become,
OH organised hoarders, while the easiest way to act,
they organise your stuff is to get rid of most of it, and that really start
letting go of the expectation that these things are going to make me happy or complete
yeah. I really do enjoy this and I was dreading cleaning the basement for a literally years cuz. I thought it was going to take so much time and be really hard to let go of stuff. I think I cleaned out hundred
hundreds and hundreds of items in less than eight hours spread out over two days
with my mom. It was actually quite fun. We went out to lunch. We went out to dinner. You know she was thrilled to get rid of all this nonsense. Everything we wanted to breakfast and dinner cuz. We work through the day, but it was like a really funds,
trip down memory lane and then it was like. Let's get rid of everything else
like ok. Are you sure this is your old stuff, but it was like. The whole thing was kind of
looking through a really nice three d
RO album. But you know that you never want to see those things again right as people go, why
never throw away all my old photos. This is like going on a time travel trip through those things.
But you know that you never have to do it again and if you want to do if you really want the gist of like all of the the good feelings you just look at the photos you took of some
the things you got rid of that you will obviously never miss like a stinky mouldy mother's day card from nineteen ninety one right or earlier. So it really is kind of an interesting experience and cathartic isn't quite the right word for it cause. Yes, it's cathartic, but it's
so you need to get something you said about. Making room really did make a lot of sense right because word uses spending money to try and buyer away to happiness like you said, with the expectations, and we do get that pay off up front, whether it's the newest Iphone ordered a SEC,
Lexus or whatever. You are talking about road before with your luxury cars in your suits and ties now,
although it actually has become quite hard a lot harder to think before we purchase things, which is what
It used to be my solution to over clutter was
like I'm going to sleep on this before I buy an on line, shopping happen man and that went straight out their frickin window very recent rules to deal with this new book. It's got love people use things because the opposite never works. It sort of those attack line that in stock.
With our live events and then our podcast, and eventually we turned it into a book. It's about really healing the seven relationships in our life and it starts with our relationship with stuff. But of course, how do we deal with those things and, as you just illuminated, we removed all the friction right. It's one click buying it same day, shipping, its ultimate convenience I feel like were about to you,
away from just thinking about a thing before just materializes in our home right drone delivery, man imagined like
to wait five hours
this to a right now, there's a thing flying through the air. That's about to drop this literally into my hands in my back yard. In we're plain. If something shows up a day later, whatever right in her and its because we have these new expectations now right, and so we have some
also in the new bought. This talk about how to deal with some of these things, the no junk ruled awake for rule etc, but here's the real problem. The problem is
when room, we removed all the friction, which sounds really nice and there's nothing wrong, inherently wrong with convenience, but we ve got a battered ourselves so much with convenes who removed all that friction. Therewith accidently lost the traction as well, and so I tried to drive on escaping rank of course, you're going
keep careening from side to side and we're doing that were hitting the walls and it's the wall of anxiety in the wall of discontent in the wall of anger in the wall of sadness and its because we ve lost all that traction removing all over the place,
I like the idea that there's nothing wrong with convenience cuz. I think a lot of folks who, who probably hear you speak about this, maybe for the first time think also this guy just wants me to go
back to nineteen eighty five mail order where I've got to wait six to eight weeks to get something just in case. I don't really want it. Well, then, I'm just going to end up making an impulse buy
and returning it later it's the same problem. You know this
environmental impact of sending something back and am I
thinking about doing a whole new show on this, because I think if what you say doesn't convince people
have you looked at all the into the logistic nightmare of returning like a pair of shoes, you bought from Zappos that's wrong size or a pair of pants you bought from Amazon. It's not like eighty percent of that stuff just gets thrown
shove into a landfill yeah, it's horrible- these
the average American throws away. Eighty one pounds of clothing every year when ninety five percent of that can be re used to recycle rain, and so why
we doing that. Won't. You already pointed out, we purchase lotta things, a sort of aspirin,
personal purchases, and they just want to sit on the shelf. The shell for, on the hangar two reasons for that one is our waiting for the perfect occasion to wear the thing.
but more likely than not. It's also I'm buying
nothing because it looked really great on them
and again or in the advertisement.
Now I feel as though I need to have it, even though it doesn't look great on me and I don't feel confident and I don't feel good about it, but sunk all star Eddie purchases, so I might
hold on to it and by me holding onto a not letting go of the thing now. No one is getting value from it. It just sitting there in the back of a clause that collecting dust
listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Joshua Fields, Milburn we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by better help online therapy
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What about during the show in one easy place, that link is in the show notes at Jordan, harbinger dot com, slash podcast now back to Joshua Fields, Melbourne,
there's something called a recreational shopping or recreational shoppers. Have you heard of these people will take large red
EL chains and Amazon and things like that will label. So
but he, like you or me, mob, not us, but somebody who is another human who shops a lot and returns things
a recreational shopper in these people. They cause hell for these companies,
because they'll by- and this is a real example-
by lawnmowers, tractors, large equipment and it'll all gets,
to them and then they'll just return it and, though examined withers personally
and they ll say this person bought it
laughter and they live in like New Jersey origin.
In writing, mower and it's a personal lives in an apartment just makes no sense in their people that are addicted to these, like dopamine hits in the convenience, and a lack of friction in shopping is turned its hard to not blame these people, but also the system is set up against all of them.
Psychology, where they're getting these dopamine hits in a lot of times things
going super well in their lives right. There really stressed out and they're getting a temporary report
if, by ordering make up at a friend who I won't
up here on the show she's a lovely person, but she was going to really stressful time in her life and she,
by make up probably thread of
times a week down like mail order make up and she had. I went to her house and she was like ok when you come
you're gonna, have to explain something to you before you make it
I'd comment and I walked in there and I'm it was just high,
so like unopened, make up in
environmental activists and she said the saddest parties. They can't reuse any of it because
to make up, so I can even return it in good conscience because it's gonna get thrown away. I feel like I have to use it, and so the talk about stuff owning you. This was like the worst type of situation she had put herself in, but it was caused in part, of course, by circumstances in her life, but
so by deficit, advertising? I'd love for you to talk about this, a little more because this does sort of trigger even them.
Gonna called normal of us who have well adjusted of us to buy crap that we don't need less film cutlasses. Now it's out on that flax, and
any leonards in there and Jesus environmental activists in and she talks about what deficit advertising, but really is. I think, the term the markers use now as the vertical expansion of your reference group, which, while is really just a fancy, what to say keeping up with the joke
I guess it used to be you compare yourself against your neighbor. All my neighbour got the corvette. Now I feel as though I need a corver when I
Compare yourself against everyone. You ve never met because of your instagram feed or whatever the ads on tv or in the magazine, etc.
And whatever I'm adieu alive of them, were in the middle of this tour right now, whenever deal
then I'll have people on the audience describe what a successful person looks like described me a picture of a successful person. It's always the same thing: it's user guy with a suit. I watch nice car, possibly a boat, a big house, and so this is the idea of successful. Where did we get that from right? Nothing wrong with those things I have a house right. I have a car, I own, a suit, as well as on saying that we need to get rid of these things, but understanding all we ve been sold this mean of in order to be successful person. You have to be a particular kind of person, with a kind of
success doesn't actually exist. This is sort of an iceberg and overseeing is the what's above the water here, but what's below the water, I need really good money in the corporate world, but I had almost half a million dollars worth of debt. That's a lot.
Yea took me many many years to pay that off right, because what was the debt from that's like you can't you that I try to rack up debt like that. You would think so, but not to take a swing it here. But now
Why does a lot about it doesn't happen overnight? I mean there's some big purchases there. I had three luxury cars right right, like two Lexus Lex, I think as the black like me, and then I heard your land rover and again, I'm sure they're all fine cars right, but when you're paying three car payments, automation, insurance and you have to have a two and a half car garage
I only knew what the heck that we ought to have it also both flaxen two cars gotta. Actually. Well, here's the weird thing so it nearly forty percent of Americans can fit.
car in their garage guilty. But I have
it may Clement, and there is a good reason: did you get that? Will the thing is you're using the garage they're, not actually waves in the garage storage, unity has turned into a storage unit right and it's a demon that nice them, but is to understand, like all, on spending a whole lot of money on a whole bunch of things. I don't need you mentioned that this sort of problem of would you call them recreational shoppers right. Yet?
I think that's what like Walmart calls you when they know you're, not gonna, keep the thing you order and they ban your ass from from buying yes, and so the problem is that we are to an extent all recreational shoppers of it that a study recently, ninety three percent of teens rank shopping as their number one favorite pastime, that's so horrible to here, yeah, that's so horrible! You can look kid younger than them the average child in the western world
as nearly three hundred toys, but plays with twelve of them each day. Now, my god and then you do a study on that and you realize, like all the same thing, we already know children too many toys don't enjoy quality playtime the same way as their peers with fewer toys do and it's because of the paradox of choice. We get
so overwhelmed by all of these things that we have, we don't even know what to do with it. We sort of through our hands up and end up, not enjoying any other and then
as adults, we all have our own toys as well. So you asked how I got into debt it's because over time I thought I needed certain things. I thought I needed the expensive watcher when the first expensive watch didn't do. It will, of course need to have more than one account where the same watch every day I need ten pairs of dress shoes I needed does
Suit, I need seven diedre shirt who the hell's early dress shirts. I had seventy dresser threat
hey no longer as well as what it sounds like what? Yet the problem is the laundry day was a nightmare right, wash seventy three washers and so
nothing wrong with these things. One is wrong, as we have been told that
we need more more more in our culture. We always consider more. We never stop to consider less in. Why don't we start to consider less, because we don't know what
ass is no one, stop that identify. What is enough look like for me and if we can figure out that picture of enough is usually it's reached not through adding
but through subtracting. Yet there are hundreds of millions or, I would say just billions of dollars probably spent on telling us that were not enough right through advertising. So with that kind of on
saw coming at us twenty four seven. It is difficult, and also for
mobile that a lot of people, especially young people, don't kind of have the wherewithal to fight that. I'm
there are some of the smartest people in the world trying to fight your ability to combat
your ability to fight that when you
see an add on Instagram, after looking at a certain influence or or influence or marketing- and things like that, so I mean
on this show I try and be really care
full with sponsors and prefer things that are like
MRS over items and I've rejected
any items that I think are gonna end up now,
lasting long or seem like they are bad for
the audience, although I do advertiser whisky brand, but, let's be honest, I could go either way and it doesn't usually
the sultan clutter, but you know there's a lot of things that I think are just bad for us and companies with some with some of the largest budgets come at us.
We want you to advertise this. I dont want to out anyone and trying to find a way to talk around the examples here, but its very, very difficult, and I can see why this is just. It is just this special forces of
Advertising coming at you and being like by this plastic thing for your plastic thing that covers your plastic thing, the throne, Wolf
be thrown away in a year and last ten thousand years and a in a landfill somewhere and further. I think you said this in the movie. Less is now we trade our
time, especially more than most western
Since here in the United States, we trade our time to get more money to get more stuff sort, actually were trading, our freedom for stuff, and that stuffed appreciates in his later
junk, and then it's made even worse when you incur debt to do this, so if you think about instead of just wasting money, you're, actually spending your freedom to get that thing. The calculation
made a little bit of a shift for me cuz. I was like what how much freedom am I giving up if I buy a more expensive watch just when you think about me
it's like why it up doing well, I can afford it, but if you think about how much freedom, your trading for it,
What if you can't come up with a concrete measurement Eli, while that's like weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks of actual work? What if I took a vacation,
long or I can have this watch, it's like nobody wants a watch at that point right unless you're just a watch
american you're gonna elevator value out of it. I'm not gonna do that.
I would much rather have that vacation than that watch or that upgrade of my whatever thing that I don't care about.
There. We think about money, is being sort of ultimate resource and there's nothing wrong with money and not allergic to money as a minimalist, it's no longer the primary driver for doing
what I do, but I'd also befalling myself. I said it doesn't have a place in the
or I just don't let in the driver's seat so to speak, but whenever we may considerations, of course, that is one resource. We want to be
careful with our resources, gonna be intentional. What that resource, but not forsaking the other, I would argue more important resources. Attention time you mention freedom for
guess energy, our skills. These are all other resources that we have and their much more limited, especially our time right. You can get a refund for the thing that you purchase if your discontented with it
moral, but there is no refund for Miss, spend time. That's that's interesting! In luck, some people might assert that its ear.
to say that you need less, but from a superficial point of view, it seems like some of this trend, like the pursuit of less, could
so be a form of avoidance, and I wonder what you would say to those people right. I mean it almost sounds like your spartan ism argument from before, but I'm curious what you think. It's really easy to sort of encapsulate mistakenly and care,
though it minimalism in June
throw away all of your staff that you dont want and dot dot dot joy. But it's not quite like that,
no, not at all. In fact, I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. You too, you can have a carpenter who goes to buy hammer and just because they purchased a hammer, hammer doesn't actually make them a carpenter. Arrayed in the same thing is true with the minimalist who uses minimalism as a tool simplifying one's life. You can have that hammer and you can bludgeon someone with it. You can also bludgeon yourself with minimalism. You can let go of the things you can deprive yourself of the things that add value to your life. Everything you own can fit in one of three piles that either essential its non essential but adds value or its junk. As a minimalist, I'm really focus on the third pile getting rid of the access stuff, because we all have the same essentials right. We all need and clothing and in food and shelter, vocation, education, etc. There there's some base,
because since shows that we need- and then there are the non essential in this is perspective or what is going to add value to your life- may not I value to my life and so what adds value but is not essential, given example. Well, I have a coffee table right. I have a kitchen table. I have a couple in tables,
sounds like a lot of tables. I don't really get you gotta get a lot of surfaces in your heart and I can tell you and so, but the thing is like yeah. Strictly speaking, I: u get by fine without a dining room table rain, but it adds value to my life, so I'm not gonna save all. We need to get rid of that now. It is true that some time,
all remove the things that add value for temporary period of time
see whether or not there truly adding value to my life or if my life is enhanced without them, but if not, then I certainly don't wanna go without those few things
problem is most of the things we own they fit in category that junk category, and those are the things that
ask arrayed as though they add value, because we saw it in an ad or we saw someone else using it, or maybe we
God value from five years ago, but now we're clinging to it out of some sort of pious sense of nostalgia and we're not actually getting anything from it. In fact, it's extracted
our resources. Our time our energy are focus. It brings forth that psychological clutter in addition to the actual physical clutter. That's there in your home
you ve got some core values of minimalism and one is let go of sentimental items and I found that kind of counter intuitive. I mentioned earlier in the show how I just took pictures of all my kids school work and
through the actual stuff away, but I think a lot of people are gonna have trouble
but that they're gonna look like a piece of something that they got from a relic
Tavor or some other. Maybe it is their kids school work. I don't know, I'm not gonna go I just kind of like. Should I really get rid of this? Doesn't it
that much room you're. It does bring me joy when I look at it, why do you think it still important to get rid of that stuff at some level or in some occasions I should say
letting go sentiment of mental animals, but not necessarily or sentimental item. So here's the problem. If everything is sentimental, then that nothing is right, yet nothing ass into mental right, and so that's what we do, though we import sentimentality, which is just access sentiment of me,
look it up in the dictionary sentimentality means we have access, intimate with respect to a thing and that sentimentality is weighing us down, especially when were clinging to tens of thousands of so called sentimental item. You know what I was dealing with my mom stuff sorting through her things. I went back to Ohio with just a half
full of sentimental items. I could have kept all year, whatever three hundred thousand items that track load: yeah, yeah, literally a giant you hall that I could have brought everything back and put it in a store jocker cause. I couldn't go mingle, her stuff with my stuff. I already had a big house and in a full basement for stuff, but you may
storage locker. Let me cling to follow a bit longer right and it would give me a little bit of certainty in the moment, but it would actually bring me
a lot of dread and anxiety because, as you have already mentioned, having a go deal with that way,
is on you. Never you I'll get to that some! They re all hold onto these things. Just in case. I might need them in some non existent hypothetical few
sure, but that really really ways on us will the having much fewer sentimental items. I get far more
value enjoy from those things because there actually displayed unable to use them. They have some sort of function or not just sitting in a closet or an attic or a garage or storage locker somewhere.
This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Joshua fields. Milburgh we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by just works.
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breaks from the single malt Scotch whisky Norman helps redefine what it means to be rich. It's very easy to get bogged down in material success when the currency of the new Rich is getting more time and enjoyment out of what we ve already got. Nothing really exemplifies.
more than our guest here, Joshua Fields. Milburn,
As your hearing here on the show, this is a guy who had it all worked really hard from growing up in power,
rush to getting all of the belgian whistles and sort of rich kid toys that he could want and found that it was
making more miserable, and now he really does embody the minimalist element. I mean hell his brand
the minimalist you can't
get more new, rich and minimalist than that Kenya and I'll tell you
watches evolution from the person he was to the person he is now. It is really really night and day, and he is just a case study for embodying this new mindset. Skilfully crafted enjoy responsibly Glenn fitting twenty twenty one imported by William Grant Incense Ink New York New York. This episode is also
concert in part by Clavijo. You remember the ideal holiday gift as a kid. It was probably a certain toy hot new council that big kid bike and then, after you become a grown up, the perfect gifts were the unexpected essentials, the ones you often get for yourself, fresh socks and undies Stackpole storage.
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in your growth, learn more at K, L a v- I why oh dot com, slash holidays now for the rest of my conversation with Joshua Field Milburn
you have this twenty twenty rule, which I called us how to get rid of? U S! Beak
charging cables, because this is really wanted- is right, like I've got a draw. Everyone has this right. The drawer words like would, if I need a firewire, eight hundred gable someday, and maybe you can get rid of that- does nothing else uses it, but every single person listening to this matter
the one percent of the audience is exempt from. This has a bunch of different charge,
there's for their phone, but their current phone probably doesn't use that exact cable by like they did the. U S beast
a usb, a dilemma. Right, like you, have the bigger the. How do you do with the blackberry chargers? The area, though in those
I very ones maybe get rid of that, but now you know
book doesn't have the big usb. It's got the little ones. It's got the usb see, but like sometimes you might need the beggar one, but you need all five of those cables. Tell me about the twenty twenty workers
This is something where I'm it's sort of hard to wrap your mind around, because it almost still sounds wasteful but I'll get into it before I trash it sounds like an incredibly wasteful. In fact, they also sounds like an incredible rule of privilege for the ruling class. So, what's the outlets dispel that we were few rules, the twenty rule is, I think, the very first rule we ever came up with now when we say rules there not act
rules, their boundaries that we set for ourselves chair and their adjustable as well, and so here too, the twenty rule work. We also call the just in case.
The three most dangerous words in the english language. Yet just in case
that's why you're holding onto all these cables right and it extends way beyond
junk drawer, your electronics, drawer. We hold on to tens of thousands of just in case items just in case we might need
some day. We don't know when we don't suspect we're going to, but you know what just in case- and you know what you're right, if it was just a couple cables, probably wouldn't be that big of a deal
but that extends the everywhere in our house were holding onto all of these. Just in case I have to use other twenty row works, anything you're holding onto just in case
you can let go of it because you can replace it for less than twenty dollars in less than twenty minutes from wherever you are now at first. You hear that you like here, but I want to go and spent twenty bucks every day right on appointed. Just in case I am Ryan. I came over this rule back and twenty eleven I can take out a decade ago right between the two
Thus we ve had to use it five times total in ten year in tenuous human years, every multiply by by the two
That's right. You ve had to go out five times in repurchase. Some kind
cable or doodad that you threw away the Paris scissors or Oreo a pair of shorter, something that really I'm onto this just in case and now, if I have to use that rule,
we less than twenty dollars. Twenty minutes from wherever I am and has given me permission to, let go of tens
thousands of other items, and it's not costing me twenty bucks everyday, its cost me a hundred dollars over the course of a decade who wouldn't want to spin a hundred dollars to let go of a bunch of access stuff.
Then the way it's funny you preempted my question here because I was going to say, look men. A lot of people are gonna, think man at ways to replace somethin like that, even
Twenty bucks, there's environmental costs there, of course the monetary cause, but I was gonna guess that you,
once in a blue moon have to use it now five times in a decade. Let's assume that you're, really,
really good at taking what you're gonna need later and really are of not having to reply
staff for your Macgyver ring charging.
Labels out of paper clubs that you find around the Hollywood or whatever. Even then right when you look at it
spending a maximum of a hundred dollars or around two hundred dollars to get rid of tens of thousands of items. It really does make sense could, of course I was thinking here just throwing things away in replacing on three months later, that's even worse than having a juncture right just from like a landfill and sort of junk trash perspective of what am I regret, carbon footprint right environmental perspective haven't repurchase stuff, but here
the value you get from almost never having to do that it and then it addition being able to get rid of like an entire garage full of stuff and maybe even maybe even fit your car in their one day. It seems like a pretty good return. What it feels to me that we are worried,
towards opening our stuff in a landfill, but it's already functionally into landfill in your how I, but by letting go it's just in your way right yet, but we shall have to put in landfill that sort of a last last resort
so I have another rule whenever I'm trying to sell something, I'm gonna we're trying to get rid of some of the first thing I try to do is sell it at the doesn't sell. In a week I lower the poor.
ass if it doesn't sell in thirty days than I donated. If I'm unable to donate it while then eventually out, recycle it- and I can't recycle it well then, yes, there are a few things that will make their way to landfill, but for following that process were being much more deliberate, we're not just renting and dumpster and throwing all of our stuff in it. There are a few things are going to make their way to a landfill, but most of those things can actually per
then at additional ways, because what we're doing is refining other people who will get value from the things we no longer give value from, and so they don't have to purchase a brand new. They can have a slightly used whenever blackberry, cable. If they're still using a blackberry- and I'm not going to use it anyway, so we might as well find someone
also well yeah. It's interesting there's a lot of people that you can find that we use things. I mean, first of all, good
Salvation Army, but if you like
near where I live, and you go to big cities lot, I've got all these like Iphone batteries that you plugin, that our external and you can't really
e thrown away because it's a battery. You dont want that to happen, and you can't really sell it because it only keeps like sixty percent of its charge, but I usually pay
many. When I go to a city like New York or even San Francisco Chicago- and you see, people who are sitting on the street looking at their phone- and they are absolutely thrill-
to get an external battery that almost as good as a new one horse. You know half as good as a new one, but because you have replaced yours until I came in here. You go this
few from having to like shut your phone down. It
or you can watch even more whatever your streaming and less anymore, music, wherever it can. Sometimes it's our only connection to the outside world and you get creative fight
meaning what you can do with a lot of his old stuff, that you think has no value and it's actually kind of fun in a way to think about how much somebody else can
something that's literally your tripping over. It's in your garage
its landfilled in your house somewhere or in a storage unit. It's just in the wrong spot. You happen to be paying for it every month. Tell me about it
packing party, because this is something that I did when I moved by virtue of the fact that I had to
everything in that was, like I said at the top of show very eye opening book
or can sort of large moving red. That's figure put it
well Ryan. I realize early on, like the one time your forced to confront all of your material possessions is when you move, you have to get everything out of you.
what how say they won't, let you leave the stuff behind right, and so you literally have the box up everything you own. It merits,
real pain in the but to box everything up even
a I don't enjoy moving, but before being a minimalist, it was a totally different endeavour and so Ryan and I came over this wild idea- called a packing party
he's a very sort of type a guy- and he saw me simplify my life for the course of eight months in his eye,
that's great, but like I need to do something quick, I wanna do something now, so we just pretended he was moving. I went over this house when we can we boxed up everything
everything he we even covered his furniture with different clause was in sheets, was rendered it unusable and then over the course of twenty one day,
He unpacked only the items he needed. We talk about this and in the new doc,
memory as well, who started that a reenactment of some of the packing party stuff, and so you can imagine that first, ninety packs a toothbrush in some clothes for work and in some bedsheets in his bed and the furniture he actually used and maybe a tool kit. The next day, only the things that he needed and over the course of those twenty one days at the end of it he had eighty percent of his stuff still.
Access, while in the irony of that is he couldn't remember what was in half the boxes right here. We had that we had that what's in here plates, but we have play its debt,
that all over again, that's right, but it's with closed cables, bottles, stuff, if you like me, there's like
tronix and microphones and self that you haven't used in a decade that are perfectly good right, all kinds of that's brilliant strategy.
Most. People will only have the kind of wearing.
all do this when they are actually moving right, but I mean: can you break it down like one room at a time that is packing? Everything sounds really.
I'll, be honest, does in fact so it. In our new book we had forty seven different families. Do the packing party
really hate this work for Ryan Beata. Let's see if we can work in the real world with families and different people around the world, but we want to give the sum option, so some people were really brave. They did the whole house, other people, wheat
Let us do one room if you just want to do your start with your bathroom. Do a packing party for your bathroom or packing party for your garage for packing party for your closet, even write or you could do multi room. We had several families who they did. Multi rooms of arms goods. Do my living room and my second bathroom
a great, then you can do that in what you learn very quickly. Is there are so many things in here and I was afraid to confront when you do it this way,
you're only unpacking the things you get value from an you forget about the rest of it who, at the end of the twenty one, decks
Aramis than you get to decide what things am I going to say.
Our donate Ryan got rid of everything that was stolen, those boxes after twenty one days here,
Order donated all over now is really where the minimalist Stockholm started was with that twenty one day
only we started writing about that yeah. It seems like it would be a sort of touch on this week,
a little bit addicting rikers you like what else can I get rid of? We had that one after we move.
And donated all the stuff like. What else can we get rid of knives Jochen with my mom clean out the basement? What else can we get rid of and she's like?
you kidding, I'm making your dad do this next. It ass, though there
we're got it all out and get rid of. It really is funny how many things you think, but I should keep this an azure going through
If I literally found band aids that were from before I was born, while I opened one,
to see if they were still good and now you know spoil are there now now it doesn't like the sticky stuff dried up in got broken down. There's a guess. You just have this crispy hard sort of paper bandage from nineteen seventy
but you can't use even in emergency yeah, some of this stuff just has to go. If you think about it
my mom said. You know you have to do this now, because if we croak you're gonna have to
this alone and it's gonna be kind, a horrible, and that was sobering and varied. I mean you went through that right yourself with your mom's stuff.
Well. I've got to her things you I've written about them. We ve talked about it, but when,
seeing now is a lot of people come to live events and their apparent
sure, like hey, I'm dealing with this now, so my kids don't have to deal with it in the future, arrange a lot of times now that we have these two films on Netflix that we have kids were bringing their parents.
say, hey, mom and dad, I don't want to have to deal with your stuff. I dont want the staff that you think
I want an you're holding on onto it and I'm not gonna tell you not to hold onto it
Do whatever you want, but I don't wanna have to deal with it. So would you please do something about it, or at least not pass it on to me, and so we misconstrue we get. This idea like the thing is
are you to me- must be valuable to everyone else right, but his jet junk for everyone else,
going to get in their way, and so we have so many people shown up the events now and I realize
all one of my main motivators as I dont want to burden the people around me.
and it seems they start letting go, they realized. Actually, I was burning myself in the first place right, not a hundred per cent,
ok for people who don't want to do the packing party stuff, because it's too much of a step,
tell me about the thirty day minimalism game, because I think this is a genius way to get people to just forced themselves to dip their toes in the water and then they start getting addicted. Do it, let's be honest, declaring can be kind of boring you, you don't get it
when you hear the word de cluttering gray generally now, and so we find a way to make it
fun with a little bit of friendly competition. Here's how it works the beginning of any month, you partner up with a friend a family member, a co worker, and you both decide to get rid of some stuff at the beginning of the month. So it starts off really easy to give you that momentum that you needs on day, one you need to get rid of one item. Anyone can do that day too. It's two items, they thirty three items,
forth and so on starts off really easy, but by the middle of month I found for me and my wife, and I and daughter we could. We still do it from time to time, even though it were
We almost always fair. We never make it end of the month at this point, but it allows us to get rid of some stuff, but by the Noble Amanda starts to get more difficult right day. Twelve, it's like! Oh, my god, I figure in a twelve things, but to more, I have to get rid of thirteen things on a day, twenty undergrowth, twenty things. Whoever goes the longest wines that combat whenever you want, you can bet a meal or you know twenty bucks or whatever you want it to be, and whoever goes the longest winds if you both make it to the end of the month and you both one cause, you ve gotten rid of about five hundred items and that's a really good start. It's crazy. We had people play for many many months. Some people keep going sorts date, thirty, three they get or thirty. Three times we have one lady has been playing for years now she starts over every month. It's one thing: on the first day, two things on the second day while and so
it keeps going, keeps the cycle going of the cycle of letting go. It seems like it would be tough to get once you're in the double digits. It's like our! U is one paperclip one item like how do you even know you start to find ways around it? Does it seems very difficult to do? I'm guessing that, once you
into the mode of looking for things that you can get rid of that part of the exercise right, like oh,
What is that? Oh yeah I've jars over there? I should get rid of some of those jars right, I'm literally looking at a stack of jars like. Why do I have these? They probably got put their months ago yeah? Who knows what we were going to do with them? They might not even be mine right right, so that's like if I'm pavement look at around it stem to get rid of all the time, at least for the month of playing this game. That's probably a good mind
but to be an that's, not causing me a bunch of anxiety about how I have to now pack up everything in my entire living room and then wait for what
twenty days or whatever, to get rid of it. I'm trying to get people to try this verses
panicking in thinking that they have to move in order to become to get the bug
of minimal it out any and every sure I mean so even have a free, minimalism game calendar on our website. Just dumb and West Stockholm Slash game, you can see all the the rules and stuff there doesn't cost you anything. The planter use download the free calendar over there, but your brain up a really good point. You're talking about retraining the way we think about our stock, because we see some of our thing so much that we don't actually see them. We simply take them for granted literally there
what has happened to be fixtures within our homes within our cars within our offices within our lives that we see them every day, so we cease to actually be sensitive to them anymore. In this minimalism game or the packing party are both great ways to start to see those things for what they are in.
as we start to let go of those things. Yet you can make up any rule you want if you are paperclip to be one item, fine, it's up to you or a box of paper clubs could be. One item is well right, and so it's up to us to define that, but it's really about getting that momentum,
because at first were so overwhelmed. We don't know where. To start. We don't know how to let go of anything, and the key to the game is just start with one thing: if you let go of me,
a thing into more you like of two things, then you'll stop letting go in. I will become habitual on time.
are this is solid and I love I love the practical, but I know that you ve got this each did you feel it
you got your little monologue, I'm letting go man and it wouldn't be a minimalist podcast one b, a Joshua Fields, Milburn Podcast, without letting you wax on about their suit. So take us all man we're talking about what to do we're talkin about letting go, but letting goes action. Not something that you do letting go is something you stop doing. You stop clinging to the access stuff. You stop clinging to the toxic relationships. You start clinging to the bad habits. You stop clinging to all of the things that don't serve you anymore
even the things that may have served you one point time. You know my daughter's eight years old now she hasn't play with the toy you play with when she was three rain, and yet we continue to cling to those things from a deck
a girl or five years ago or whatever, and so
NGO isn't about simply declaring her
recognising our life. It's about understanding our attachment to those things in the absurdity of that attachment, how its keeping us from being free, it's keeping us from being joyous and content and peaceful. All of these things actually get in the way of our tranquillity. So letting go was not something you do it's something you stopped it.
as soon as you stop the clinging Joshua fields. Melbourne thumb minimalist stuck on. Thank you so much man. This is a long time in the making sorry took so long, but it was always great to have you. I've got to see you could see, run like so much if you're
for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger show to sync your teeth into here's, a trailer with Dan Pink on why some of us are mourning people, and some of us are evening people and why science,
as were more racist in the afternoon, people were more like
let it get parole early in the day and immediately after the judge had her bright, you came before the judges, regular ten percent chance. You came right after the judges break. You had about a seventy percent chance. They had to groups of yours. Every group had things that affect
one per cent had independent name, Robert Garner, the other person had defended the reporter Garcia, but on the same side, effects
though they had another group, the deliberated in the afternoon same deal when jurors deliberated in the morning. They rendered the same product for garnering Garcia, because it's the same set of acts
they deliberated in the afternoon. There were more likely to exonerate corner and convict Garcia racial bias increases. During that time, I will have to be the kind of bad ass who gets up at four o clock in the morning.
works out, reached three newspapers, different three different languages and like at the almost six fifteen before the cleaning crew. But you know what that's not me
the idea that everybody can just get up earlier, that's easier.
then done it's not very sustainable. I know, there's a ton of fellow entrepreneurs and just regular folks out there and then have trouble
early and think align. I'm lazy about fifty percent of us are very strong morning. People was about twenty percent of us, a very strong, even people out there is another in between
We are in some ways walking time cases. We have time
I mean literally imbued gain more visibility for more with damping, including how to match our schedule to your bodies. Peak times for rest recovery and optimal focus, check out episode. Sixty three here on the Jordan Harbinger Show
always if one time talking with Joshua SIMPLE is not always easy, it seems like it is, but it's not because it requires us to be intentional about now,
going with the flow not storing and buying things, it's taken me a lot to get rid of things. Even things that I think I should get rid of. Sometimes I want
tell it. Instead of donating, it becomes the excuse, rights. I've learned to just give things,
or better not to get them in the first place, thanks to Josh for his time in openness on this,
so I hope you enjoy it. Please try the practical that you heard about on this one. I think you will really get value from those links to everything will be in the
notes at Jordan, harbinger dot com. Please use our website links if you buy books or anything from the guessed it does help support the show worksheets for the
The soldier in the show notes, transcripts are in the show out, there's a very
of the interview gone up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan, Harbinger Dotcom, Slash Youtube
Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me I'm linked in really
ships are much better than things and you can use the same system, software in tiny habits that I used to create and maintain my relationships in our six minute. Networking course. The courses free over it, Jordan Harbin
we're not come slash course dig that well before you get thirsty most of the guests you here on the show, subscribing contribute to the course so come join Us
he'll be in small company where you belong, the show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen. Harbinger Jason
understand, Robert forgetting Milly Ocampo, even bared, Josh, Ballard and Gabriel Ms Raw. He remember
We rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, fino somebody's addicted to stuff or somebody who wants
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something great in every episode of this show. So please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. This episode, sponsored in part by China, China, as a people
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-27.