Bill Sullivan (@wjsullivan) is a professor of pharmacology and microbiology at the Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, an award-winning researcher, teacher, science communicator, and author of Pleased to Meet Me: Genes, Germs, and the Curious Forces That Make Us Who We Are.What We Discuss with Bill Sullivan:
- What we're just now learning in the field of epigenetics -- the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work.
- Why twins who are genetically identical look less alike as they age -- or if they've been raised apart from one another.
- How the overabundance of plastics and other endocrine disruptors in our environment are affecting not only our bodies on a molecular level, but the physical and mental development of generations down the line.
- How kids -- even the unborn -- are epigenetically altered by the social and economic status of their parents.
- What we're learning about the role of the teeming millions of microorganisms that live inside of us -- collectively known as the microbiome -- on our overall mental and physical health.
- And much more...
Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/610Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show, if you take a micro, biome sample of intestinal bacteria from a depressed person. And put it into a germ free mouse. That mouse starts to exhibit symptoms of depression. It won't be interested in treats It won't socialize with other mice and if you drop it into but get a water. It won't even try swim out like a normal mouse word. So this was a few the discovery that links for the first time. Something about the Human Micro Biome is linked to depression welcome to the show on Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan. of Andrew show what he called the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have enough conversation, with people at the top of their game. Astronauts entrepreneurs, spies.
psychologists, even the occasional former called member under cover agents or music mobile. Each episode turns our guests wisdom into practice. Advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker, If your new to the Show- or you want to tell your friends about it, we ve got episode, starter packs. These are Actions of your favorite episodes organised by topic that help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show just visit Jordan, urban Jure Dotcom, slash start you can find, and also in Spotify that'll help you get started or help. Somebody else get start Of course, I always appreciate it when you do that today, how much of our make up because of our genetics and how much is it? of our environment? This? Is it nature versus nurture, but how nurture effects? What's already in our nature- and I know it's a little confusing but we'll get that today and will explain exactly why our environment interacts with our genes to make us who we really are. Also some things
touch orb spray on ourselves, might mimic hormones and change the way our body and brain works, sometimes and scary ways, and our gut biome and what's in our digestive system, almost certainly, if that's how and what we think this wasn't, new for me, but the science here is really incredible. Last but not least, a bacteria that makes mice attack cats yeah, you heard me correctly fascinating, conversational. Some subjects that we don't usually discuss here on the shelf if you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing folks, these thinkers, others creators every single week. It's because of my work and I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over. Jordan Harbinger Dotcom, slash course. The course is about developing your networking and connection skills and inspiring others to develop a personal and professional relationship with you, it'll make you a better worker a better can actor and a better thinker. That's all free at harbinger, dotcom, slash, coarse and by the way, most of the
ass. You here on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course so come join us dubious, smart company where you belong now here's Bill Sullivan. I love the eighties references in the book because born in Nineteen, eighty myself you ever kind of deep cuts there's a lot of France is in there that I got while ok, I've heard that verve hot minute, I'm glad you call it some of those. That's why we had a middle little Easter. A kind of things shouted the myself, it was fun to put those it yeah, it's cool like always at a fast times at Richmond, high river or whatever you know did you just mentioned something from is that you would only recognise if you'd seen it in the last few years, yes, I'm a little obscure yeah, exactly obscure. I guess that's the word I was looking for, like I'm pretty sure, that's a quote from chunk from Goonies everybody born after one thousand nine hundred and eighty four is like I've, no idea what you're talkin about that was my booty, though that was like recorded off tv in Vhs if, every month with commercials, the best jokes edited
out like when the statue falls, and he goes all man. That's my favorite part, because it has often awesome ye. I still have a Goonies shirt and me is one of my favorites from that era. The book is very interesting. Dont cover health, but this isn't really help This is more about how humans are biomed. and I call machines and were very different from one another, and yet we kind of I don't really know. Why is that accurate? You that's very accurate and despair. Encompasses a lot of great stuff, and it just all started with kind of like these, I will that happen years ago when I got on social media and just started linking up with friends who I haven't spoken to her seat. in twenty years, and it makes you think your mind goes by. To this classroom. Follow these budding youngsters and all that potential promise in the future and you see some people are very successful summer married summer. Divorce some might be in jail. Some struggle with alcohol and drugs. Like me, some reading books and you wonder why we were
pretty much the same. We all grew up in the same area, the same relative environment. What creates all these differences- and I think, as a fundamental question that many people at any stage in their life, wonder about as we try to interact and work with people throughout our lives, how're we so similar and yet so different at the same time, and by learning the answers to those questions. I think we can believe much happier and healthier life air? We know the DNA and genes are a lot of indifference. Obviously, there's countless books and research Why dna and genes led us to have red, hair versus brown hair or tolerate a short but the rest of it environmental and epigenetic, is, I think, long suspected, but something that most people do really know, and even now we don't really know what's going on right, so it seems like DNA itself has many different options built into it. Does that sound right
bomb, oversimplifying it, of course, but it sounds like there's different sort of options on each strand of dna, and it's not just like this is who you are theirs different layers I see, do you the nail on the head, Jordan, that's a very concise summary of what epigenetic tries to say as us and this is a relatively new. Science- are really only came to the fore around twenty twenty five years ago. Before that there was a lot of genetic determinism beans being the recipe of life and dictating exactly who you are and are some elements of truth to that, like you said, many people are comfortable with the fact that genes dictate various aspects of our physical nature, including like hair color. I color things like that, but there's a lot more to it than that as ever, genetics has revealed and in a nutshell, what epigenetic soothsaying it literally means beyond the gene. What it is trying to convey is going back to this whole. Divide of nature, verses, nurture genes, verses, environment and its basically
This should not be a division at all. These are two sides of the same coin, because the environment actually regulates our genes in real time that creates this fascinating flexibility and it's kind of injury, to think about. Philosophically there are multiple versions of who you can be. In your genome and it's the environment. That kind of coaxes out the person that you are. It's a really interesting interplay and it made geneticists think really hard about these limitations, the genetics so aptly. Genetics is essentially how the environment affects what our genes express or which genes are expressed right. So this is probably terrible example. But let's say that in cold weather, more people have blonde hair, and I'm making this up to be clear. Then, if the person who had that gene that said it all dark hair in warm climate, blonde, hair and cold climate. If that person moved to a different climate than their hair would be
different color verses, their identical twin theoretically, who stayed in the original environment right, so the environment would foot they difference which, on that dna, to create something different in the way that that gene expresses itself. That makes sense. Yes, it does let me unpack that little bit. You ve actually said quite a bit of really cool stuff in that statement, at that you're gonna say sense but got really calls it will it leads system really cool science. Okay, analogy, might help alot of your listeners understand what genes are all about because historically and perhaps in biology class many people thought of genes as an off switch right. The genes either turned on words turned off, but does not necessarily the case, Genes are more like dimmer switches. Were volume knobs? Okay, if people remember those, so you can have every from a very little negligible amount of that gene being activated to all,
all the way you know it could go to eleven two to use the spinal tap reference and that, basically, you know genes bill proteins, so the more the gene is turned up, the more the protein is expressed. so in a very crude analogy. You can imagine that if someone and one set of circumstances expressed a very little bit of the tone in which is a critical neuro transmitter that controls mood if they had genes that control serotonin but they had very low levels of it, but then we put them into a different environment or give them a medication that can alter the expression of that gene. Serotonin levels can rise and then they experience a better mood. I also like what you said an identical twins, because there has been a phenomenon associated with identical twins that has created a decades long mystery for geneticists, and that's the fact that, as identical twins age as they get older, they look a little different
nay, sometimes even behave a little different than they did whenever you and what will need to be reminded of is that they have absolutely identical genes. One percent? They are literally clones of one another. So how can this be? How can people with the same exact genes once their order in their forests are fifties start to show differences? One of the most dramatic examples is twins local twins debtor discordant for obesity, which means one of the identical twins is lean and the other one is obese. How can that be if they have exactly the same genes right? This is where epigenetic come into play and the real quick experiment all resolved. That mystery was when scientists disk word that epigenetic has a say in how much a gene gets turned on or off. They started developing tools where they can monitor this fascinating technology right, but they can actually stayin chromosomes to identify whether they ve been.
Genetically changed or not awhile. So the upshot is in very young twins. If you look at the analogous chromosomes and you stand for these epigenetic marks the pretty much identical in young twins If you look at odor twins, fifty years or older, those epigenetic marks are all over the place. They are not conserved between the twin, even though the genes are the same, the song has changed right. So the epigenetic marks a change, and that is what the tributes differences that we sometimes see an identical twins. It's it via a pair of identical twins bodies there, both People saw Kavya, because what you are going to day. I hope that on hit as but they're, both really great guys, I'm close with one of them. Is like a health, not personal trainer and the other one used to smuggle cocaine for the Hell's angels you can definitely tell them apart. I'll put it that way, you not just because of tattoo volume, but because of other very
clear reasons like you would never confused one for the other I'll put it that way and a lot of that's environment yeah. It's either physical things that encounter in their environment or even psychological things both of those have been shown to alter genes at the epigenetic but when you know we're still discovering new ways that genes can be altered. The unknown do that I like to use that seemed to resonate with a lot of people? Is that you can think of your genes as piano keys, but the environment plays the song. I love it. But endocrine disruptors as well. This is something that first of all, are these because this terrifies me apparently there in everything you're alive, People are justifiably concerned about endocrine disruptors and they are you were there in all kinds of different plastics, and many of them are what we call forever chemicals, because they don't biodegrade anytime soon, so once they are put out there into the environment. There there to stay and what's alarming about them.
she might surmise from their name is that they disrupt our endocrinology and the endocrinology of other animals what we mean when we say that yeah. It means that chemically, if you were for most This is a terrifying experience, but you go back to chemistry, class and think about those take her to a models and who, when you look at chemical structures, the constituents of these plastics, these so called endocrine disruptors. Look a lot like what and they can act on our body in the same way hormone. are very delicate molecules, and they are only express like during certain windows of time during development and their expressed under very tight control. You can't have too much of them. You can have too little. They have to be just right. There, like a Goldilocks, Molly Your endocrine disruptors get into the body and they wreak havoc with our endocrine system, because their acting like hormones being
pressed the wrong level at the wrong time. I've heard from friends of mine who are kind of health knots, they're telling me things like you should get a reverse us most is filter for your kitchen because of your drinking tap water, yeah you're dead, in korean and weird stuff from the pipes which is already gross enough, but you're also potentially drinking, especially if you when a city or something like that, you're drinking birth control, pill urine run off type stuff, where many have taken birth control, pills and other plastics, and things like that that are in there are now in the water and then I'm chugging, a couple gallons of this every day or drinking ended my tea and it's like I'm taking a small version of those pills among The things in those are all hormones that would maybe be an absolutely tiny any infinitesimally small quantities. In my body I am now slamming a thousand times that per day or a hundred times that per day that really that's disturbing, and it's not just birth control. Pill p from other people
It's the plastics in the water but, like I remember when I was seventeen years old play soccer and they would give us these water bottles that stand to high heaven of plastic, and then you do The water in the water would taste like this toxic plastic, and I would go this is, casting. Why is no one talking about this and then, of course, ten, twenty years later, they like? Oh, those, are Bp Ays. You should be consuming zero that their illegal now and that was like in every kid. water bottle that we were told drink enough water, your play soccer drink the whole thing refill it yeah. This is a major major problem and its a fundamental problem with chemical safety. When scientists put out a drug into the They go through very rigorous clinical trials to ensure that it's going to be safe and that it won't cause any obvious harm. They test this and tens of thousands the people, when someone invent a new plastic, it doesn't go through that it just goes out. There is very little regulation
tied to that and is presumed safe until proven otherwise, which is a logic that is truly be following, especially when you have a chemical that demonstrably looks like one of the chemicals in our body that is required for developed and fertility, so this is a major major problem. There is a wonderful book very frightening book, but a wonderful book called countdown. That was released not long ago that describes tat the advent of endocrine disruptors, in disseminated throughout our plastics and into our environment tracks almost identically with the dramatic drop in fertility that were seen in a lot of countries that utilise these chemicals there has been some epigenetic data that shows that these endocrine disruptors can interfere with a variety He of genes that are linked to fertility
this is one of the major concerns of the endocrine disruptors in addition to potential developmental problems in fetuses might be exposed to these? During present, It sounds like as a whole show here so I'll move on pretty quick, but I'm so interested in this, because, even though I dont cover health, this isn't really one of those things. That's like it's, not a fad diet or an exercise. And this is something that I think is pretty well documented and is not just hype. The problem be overstated. I don't know I haven't done any research, but it seems to me like that the kid drank out of a toxic, endocrine, disrupting water bottle for a decade playing sports growing up, there's something there, especially if it still in our drinking water, slash air, slash food. So one more depressing show to put on the jacket thanks bill. Will we, you bring up a good point: Jordan. We don't wanna induce lot of unnecessary fear and p.
All the arts aware most scientists are on this at the moment. The fundamental principle and toxicology is deuce, nothing's, a poison, necessarily it's the dose. That's the poison. Take the famous example: you can just enough water to actually kill yourself from her water. We don't consider to be a toxin of any kinds necessary to live, but just illustrates the point that everything can be a poison. If it's at the right dose, so what you say is critically important, we may be able to tolerate some kind of this level of certain endocrine disruptors? The problem? Is we don't test or try to determine what that concentration should be, so what we're trying to get across right now is this needs regulation. Research more than you know, a lot of panic amongst consumers. Right now, fetal programming, you mention babies and unborn babies being affected by some of these things, the how're kid then the unborn affected by the social status and economic status of parents. That was surprising to me I guess it shouldn't have been totally new, but it doesnt bode well
societies with lots of poverty or planets with lots of poverty when even unborn children, alongside kids, that our born are affected by the social status and economic status of their parents. That sounds like problem. That's not gonna get solved in one generation or through a couple government policies right. It means there's lasting damage to poverty. Yeah. This is one of the critical themes that I wanted to try to get across in the book, because, especially in countries like ours, with this heroic individualism, you know there's this tendency that we can just tell anyone out there in our country to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get a grip and all opportunities are equal, and that is fundamentally flawed. when you look at the data. So when we talk about things like contaminated water, water that might be contaminated, not just within the current disruptors, but heavy metals like lead, which have very demonstrable effects on cognitive abilities, as well as a tendency towards regret
We find a lot of these sorts of things in poor neighborhoods, so Socio economic stress has long been associated with people having problems getting out of poverty but we always go back to this idea, the more I read the data the more. I consider this fantasy that anybody can pull themselves up out of poverty. I think it's the possible in rare instances. Ok, it's certainly been done, but for the vast majority of people we have to respect truth. And understand that these individual some of them in impoverished areas who are not getting the proper nutrition who are possibly ingesting toxins or heavy metals and who are experiencing perhaps exposure to drugs and alcohol
during pregnancy, these individuals are going to be very ill equipped. They have been ebbed genetically altered, as you referred to, it is fetal programming. This is not their choice. They did not choose to be exposed to these stressors while they were in the womb. so how can you possibly blame that child and just say this is all on you to grow up without any help or assistance or a minimum levels of it. I think the sciences really making peace or re evaluate our idea of what socio economic stress does to individuals and how it really hold them back and whatever genetics has done over the past decade or so has attached some real, tangible data to that process. So if you look at the genes, of someone who is born into poverty. They are epoch, genetically modified it genes that regulate stress and aggression. So we ve already set this child
for a monumental uphill climb that I think we just take for granted in a privileged society, yeah. It sounds political on its face, but also it really is, and if their science behind those right, if we're saying a people who Don't have the same resources actually have shown, friend who are affected by their own lack of resources, and it's not just a matter of the habits or behaviors from that person? speaks to the inequality that you have in a society, but it how to fix. That is the question: We all know how equality of outcome ends up, but I do want to turn this into a political show here. I'd love to speak! More about the microbes I am as well what is this in is this why my friends, homes smell ya? It probably is especially if they have pets, they have microbes
to say you. Micro Biome refers to the collection of trillions of microbes that live on an inside of your body, and we knew like, for instance, are intestines how's trillions of bacteria, here and there they're, probably to help us digest some foods, maybe keep nasty bacteria at Bay through competition. But we didn't understand that have far reaching rules into personality and behind here as well, and that's what scientists are discovering now that I grow biomes seems to have additional roles. We never appreciated before. So what these microbes do in our gut and in others, hundreds of different species, they make all sorts of different bio chemicals, and they have an
pact on our body and no one has the same micro biome. In fact, your microbe, I am, can even change as you get older or become expose two different environments. So this is a dynamic entity to a degree and it shifts the biochemistry in your body and that's going to alter. Perhaps your brain chemistry- and this was demonstrated in a very famous experiment not long ago when scientist took what we call a germ free mice. These are mice that are born under sterile conditions, so they don't have a microbiome. They don't have any microbes in or on them, and their captain D's they're, okay, which allow scientists to then transplant micro biomes into them to see what happens. So. Here's where it gets interesting, if you take a micro, biome sample of intestinal bacteria from a depressed person and put it into a germ free mouth that mouth starts to exhibit symptoms of depression. It won't be interested in treats
It won't socialize with other mice and if you drop it into a bucket of water, it won't even try swim out like a normal mouse would so this was a huge discovery that links for the first time. Something about the Human Micro Biome is linked to depression, and to me that might reshape how we treat this disorder shortly down the road. It seems crazy to me that the Micro Biome can way as much as our brain, and I know this because I read your book, but also because I had a call and ask if he so when we clear out those pipes in preparation for something like that, we are literally shitting our brains out. It sounds like our second bring our second brain. Yet in dogs contract this right, not the booming heart, but dogs interact. The microbes am now we're seeing things like dogs that consent. for cancer is that kind of what's going on. Is that something different this was Other element that I did touched on in the book, because there's been chatter about them,
grow biome, being a unique fingerprint for people, it's almost like dna they said you carry around a specific assortment of microbes. Scientists can not only identify what they are, but they can identify the relative quantities of them. So the microbes sitting in my God are definitely going to be different. Send the ones that are sitting in your gut and if forensic scientists were able to extract samples at the site or what they're showing now is a dog's can even smell some of these. They don't smell the microbes and sell it, but they smelled the byproducts what these microbes are making and they haven't you no exquisite sense of smell. They can identify and link. You know their scents the site to a person who carries that micro bile. So that's where things get really compelling and really interesting, the guy, the eight million genes in it you wrote, but is that kind of like saying the check- and I just aid has a ton of genes in it because their dna in the meat or you talk-
but something else? Well, if you eat a chicken, Of course, you're consuming DNA Yachting no chicken cells, but you're stomachs, gonna destroy all that is gonna rip those molecules apart, limb from limb bucker, so Jordan can live another day, but the microbes in your. But even though their reproducing and dying and turning over those genes are actively producing things, ok they're actively making things and has been shown that what they make can get into the bloodstream and can go to the brain and that's how they can possibly effect mood and behaviour as well. So these biochemical made by the bacteria economic and affecting our bodies in ways were just beginning to understand, so where more bacteria then human from the sound of it, the current estimates say: there's slightly more bacterial cells. Then the cells that make up our own body- that's true. That's a gross way to start lunch,
Hopefully, people are not eating, while as soon as that that that it's a funny visual that there's so much going on down there that there is actually more than in the rest, my body, you mention, being a super. haste or- and this is something that I have experienced- I am also a super taster- tell us what the because I have just heard oh- I have more taste, buds and normal people, but which results in his me hating a lot of things that other people love yeah. actually was one of the first things I wanted tackle when I got into writing this book and researching it because, like you, I was a very picky eater growing up and true some of my family members, crazy. One of the vegetables that I couldn't stand was broccoli and I still can't stand it
today and wild grower. Not most people seemed to enjoy this that storm and what the hell is wrong with these people can't they experienced this awful taste that I feel my brain thinks it's a poison. How can you stomach this? What the science has borne out is dead. There's super tasters among us about one quarter of people, twenty five percent or so are super tasters, and I actually got the genetic tests prove it. I dont know if it convinced my parents, why did my vegetables when I was younger, but I have genetic proof that, yes, I have the g mutation that creates this excess of bitter taste buds. All my tongue that have a heightened react So that is telling my brain like what you is put in your mouth- is really bitter. It's probably poisonous. You should spit it out,
your listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Bill Sullivan, we'll be right back this episode of sponsored in part by good. Our ex people are surprised. The prescription prices can between pharmacies. By as much as a hundred dollars, I checked good our acts to compare prices pharmacies near me and find discounts they could save me up to eighty percent good our x is free, the an easy to use and works whether you do or do not have insurance in the. Even if you have insurance, there's a good chance good are ex, can beat your co pay price. You can chew. Good, our acts online or in their app, where you can find prescription savings at over seventy thousand. pharmacies nationwide like see VS, Kroger, Walgreens, right aid, Vaughan's Walmart, more my father in law when he goes to get US prescriptions, feels he pulls up. The good are ex app shows. The pharmacist saves, like thirty bucks, so very simple: might savings on your prescriptions check good acts, good a good hour ex dot com, Sash Jordan, that is good, are ex dot com, sash, Jordan, good our exe,
calm, Slash, Jordan, good our x is not insurance, but can be used instead of insurance in twenty twenty one good, our ex users an average of seventy nine percent on retail prescription places. This episode is so sponsored by better help on line therapy. We talk about better help. A lot on the showed this month, of course, were discussing some of his stigmas around mental health, and there are plenty of those we ve been taught that mental health shouldn't the part of normal life. I think that is wrong. We take care of our bodies by go into the gym or working out the garage. Like me having a doctor that we see regularly trying to keep tabs on our nutrition. We should be pressing on our minds just as much in my opinion, and many people think that therapy is for so called crazy people, but therapy doesn't mean thing is wrong with you image. You recognise that all humans have emotions and we need to learn how to control them, not avoid them. Better help is customized mine therapy that offers videophone even live chat sessions with your therapist, you doctor, Anyone on camera, if you dont, want to its much more affordable,
an in person therapy and you can get match up with a therapist in under forty eight hours, give it a try and see why over two million people have used better help online therapy and our listeners get ten percent off your first month at better help dot com such Jordan. That's better h, E Lp, dot, com, Slash, Jordan, Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. I love these conversations, but it does help to keep the lights on here. We put all the codes and the deals in the urals all in one place. So all those does you heard you can check it out for yourself at Jordan, Harbinger Dotcom, slash deals, please do consent! supporting those who support us now back to Bill Sullivan and not a piggy eater when it comes to a lot of things, but Like tail was just horrible, you not eat it I'll choke down the Jews, but it It's almost like a gasoline type flavour. It's not exactly, but is really really bad. It literally his taste toxic, like my brain, is telling me don't eat this, it's bad for you, even though everybody,
the trendy, vague and Jews places like ours. Was it so good with some other things that you never put your body, and it seems interesting that this is by design and vegetables. good for me and eating less of that is bad because their good for me being a super taste or hurts me then read. It's a double edged sword, actually, you're, absolutely right that super tasters do tend to have a poor dog it usually later in life. They have health outcomes that reflect that. So it's really good that you got your colonoscopy, because that's one of the risk factors associated with being a super taster, these colon cancer and things like that cause they tend to eat, more meets, and things like that. Less vegetables, but all super tasters should try to identify and vegetables that they can incorporate into their diet that they can stand or explore ways that they can cook food. Personally, I think,
it was beyond help that dance he's not gonna work for us, there's nothing. You can do to it. You know deep frightened chocolate sources. The famous Seinfeld episode said: I'm still not gonna touch it, but there's plenty of things like potatoes, carrots, corn, spinach, is ok with me. Here I can stomach that, but here's where the advantage comes in and if not an advantage that you and I can enjoy per se, because it happens at a population level. What biology likes to do in order to ensure their survival, The species is create diversity amongst the population. This works very well. with like immune systems, or else the whole tribe could be wiped out by a single pathogen. But there's always gonna be some small fraction that our immune to that pathogen, just because we have divers immune systems, we have divers, taste buds. So the theory goes to prevent people A small try way back when, in our evolutionary past might moved into a new environment. There is new, very
patient that we weren't sure about some people start eating it. They don't taste any unpleasantness to it, but a super tasters would have put it in our mouth, tasted, the bitterness and said: ah, not not gonna. I'm not gonna eat this. Let's see that plan ended up being poisonous. Ok, a lot of the other people might have gotten sick, maybe even died, but about twenty five percent of us would have lived and we would have carried on the species. I know we pass on some food. preferences in utero- and this is something that explains a phenomenon which I witnessed it when travelling, which is that I see little kids in Vietnam or Thailand eating super spicy food that I can't even touch, and I love spicy food, even though monsieur british German, not supposed to I love spicy food but I'll, try something that I see like an eight or ten year old eating, and I can't even get near it like my eyes or watering, and I thought how does this happen? sure when the kids are little. Maybe they're fed that kind of food when, there are young, and so there used to it, but according to what you
written here. Women are passing on food preferences before the child is even born, which I suppose makes some sense given how umbilical cord transport those things to children, but it seems like the gut biome and other cravings, are also transmitted. That way which might explain some pregnancy cravings as well. There could be a lot of different aspects to this case. Preferences are actually very complex. Super tasters are one of the more easier ones to understand a proclivity for spicy foods. very young. Age probably has said, do more with the culture, but you can certainly make a case, and I dont know if there's science, to support this, but based on what we do know, I think it's reasonable to speculate that a child while still in the womb, could be epigenetic programmed if the mother is consuming allowed us basic foods to dial down the farmer receptors that respond to the cap season, the chemical that makes it
things spicy and therefore be a little more immune to that spice. That's one possibility, I think I recalled reading a recent study about the Micro Biome in our mouth. We have an oral micro biome so just to extend the grossness Not only do we have intestine swarming with bacteria their and our mouth as well, and they process the food as we start to chew it and break it down. and they release enzymes that can perhaps neutralize some of the flavors in the food so some areas of the world, the oral Micro Biome may be influencing the taste experience the other interests. thing about the in utero experience. In addition to like epigenetic modifications that may take place is that there is pretty compelling evidence that the embryo, the fears is experiencing some of the chemicals that the mother, in just through her diet,
I recall an experiment and I'm hoping I'm getting the details right, but pregnant women, who were ingesting garlic. They sample the amniotic fluid after they were ingesting. The scar. Like and it either smelled or even tasted like garlic, which was convincing evidence that these flavors actually getting to the embryo. I don't know what you need to do to how much you'd need to pay. We had a sample someone's amniotic food. Is that even so you to do. I guess they have to test people for all kinds. Of diseases and things like that, but I don't know I don't know what kind of check I would need to take a shot at that. Science is full of some pretty weird experiments and it does raise the question how to day loop people in Doing this, the other famous experiment that comes to mind involves people sniffing tee shirts dead
been warned by showered men for two weeks to rank them as to whether they thought the smell was ok or repulsive. You got hey me a lot to do that when two year, although I will say doing an amniotic, fluid tasting, are doing a flight of amniotic pretty good or has not, which you normally set out to do on a Friday night bow. No, definitely not there's a couple. Other experiments. I love to talk about as well we know that got bacteria affects appearance in health. I know there are some vice experiments. namely mice, eating another's Pooh and changes their fitness and appearance that too He is crazy. That really does show the Micro biomes effect so hear me out here. I'm not saying I want to try this, but Anyone tried feeding super fit people's Pooh to obese people to see if that works, it sounds horrible better than gale? I don't know about that. Let's see what you're describing scientist refer to his fecal transplantation,
or in a less gross way. They call it microbial transplantation because it not necessarily the Pooh per se. That is the critical ingredient here. It's the bacteria that resides within it right, there's a excellent medical indication for fecal transplantation, so real quick, some people suffer from a bacterial infection. Cod close tritium difficile. This is a horrible intestinal infection that produces massive diarrhea and it's just an awful experience, and it's really untreated through antibiotics for decades scientists were like stock, but what fecal transplantation does takes intestinal back to from a healthy donor. It's not like ingesting who scientists process it pulled into capsules. Ok, and then you just chuck these councils down, and it basically gives you these new bacteria from the healthy donor and its supplants, the intestinal microbes
have gone into disarray in your own and allowed close theridion to thrive. So once you get those healthy bacteria back down into your gut, then the close tritium resolve. It's got a ninety five percent curate, which is just amazing from a disease, we were powerless to treat just ten years ago. So fecal transplantation has some real potential in helping things, perhaps beyond clustered human. This circles back to the interesting mouse experiments. These studies not done in humans and were certainly not encouraging people to bio do any of these things on their own. The science is in its infancy. There's we still have so much to learn and there are potential dangers associated with fecal transplantation. Some of the cool things done in mice, where we go back to these germ free mice, that I told you about earlier didn't have any microbes in on you. Take some of these germ free mice and you can take intestinal bacteria from identical twins who were discordant frobe
remember. That means one of the identical twins. Leaned one is obese, so it takes them in that intestinal bacteria from the Lee twin put it into this germ free mouse. Nothing happens, it stays lean, it stays healthy. But if you take intestinal bacteria from the obesity, and put it into that germ free mouse. It starts to over it and it becomes obese that was just a mine blowing finding and it was the first to really connect the composition of the Micro Biome to metabolic parameters like obesity, and that has been borne out in some preliminary human experiments as well. If you take a look at the Micro biome from obese patients who then undergo bury attic surgery and lose a lot of weight as a result of that but their micro biome after the surgery, it's completely different than what it looked like before the surgery so
It is telling us that there really is a microbial component to metabolic disorders like obesity, bacteria trigger hung to get what they want, not what our body needs. You wrote this in the book. What does this mean, because that has kind of strong implications, for I want to get too philosophical about it, but I think. Oh I'm really hungry, and I want this- it's not really That wants it. Some of the time right, my guts, signalling to my brain, you should eat that cheesecake at some level sort of pisses me off right, like I think I'm in charge, meanwhile it's a bunch of bacterium in my lower intestine that are like hey man, we're gonna, be Nicky. This dumb ass was walking around with us in his guide to do ever. We want an I'm fine, before it every time. and you're not alone. In doing so, we are kind of There's two a lot of things, and that was one of them. aims that emerged in the book that I struggled with. As I wrote it, it takes a lot of agency out of what we think we are and how much control we actually
at the end of the day, and I can explain this later- I think that's good news at the end of the day, but its disquieting at first there's no question wishing the prisoners to our genes, where prisoners to our environment, where prisoners to our fetal programming, which we had absolutely no sane, we carry around evolutionary goats from our past ancestors. So what's left right and now we learn that our microbes are controlling us as well, and your actual There are some interesting studies that have suggested that activity can secrete, bio molecules, and- go to our brain and influence the cravings for the type of food we want, and it doesn't take long to alter what we That's why I think getting addicted to sweets, for example, happened so quickly. Once these sugar bacteria populate the guy, they send out signals to our brain. Telling us hey: go get more sugar and we abide by our bacterial overlords, and we do that now, if you shifter diet,
back to one that is low in sugar. Those bacteria go away and they get replaced by ones that don't craves sugar. So you get into this positive feedback loop, where you're not craving for girls the time eating it in lower, very moderate levels and it's all dictated by the bacteria species in our gut, You said that was good. Why is that? Because it seems like I should be in troll, maybe it's better. If I'm not in my gut can tell me what it needs, even though sometimes needs is just really what some invasive bacteria wants like more simple sugar right. What years why I say that there's a silver lining to this cloud. We didn't know for the longest time why people were so. Drawn to sugar and high fats Amelia course they taste good, but these things in excess are doing dramatic harm to the body, but why do we keep eating them and its? Because we are compelled by very powerful forces beyond our control influencing our brain,
perhaps at a subconscious level, now that we know that bacteria play a role in that we can fight back. We can maybe you ve come up with formulations of pre by artists or probiotics to change the composition of microbes tat inhabit our gut so that they produce chemicals that make us behave better. Scientist and industry are very intensively looking for probiotics formulations that may help people either crave the right foods or replace a bad micro biome with a good one that will encourage, better health outcomes, yeah imagining the fad diet of the future, or maybe the actual real medical best practice of the future, is going to your doctor and he's like our right bend over and they put in some sort of giant vitamin type thing up there. That is
area that gets you to say. I don't need that much sugar, but I sure would love a salad right now, but no dressing for me right and some nice clean protein and things like that. All the right cravings all aren't They saw the wrong ones that bacteria could get starved, are removed. by whatever formulation that is, I can see. There's gonna, be problems That kind of thing, but it sounds like there's a definite possibility that we could change our gut biome manually as opposed to doing it by choice. our diet first, which is really really hard and sticking to it and then overtime having that got biome grow itself, it almost seems like we can kick start the process, ass by having the ripe for having the right bacterium, implanted yeah you could, could be the way that initiated, the change to more positive behaviour and, of course you would have to keep up that positive, or else you'll go right back to square one with the unhealthy. My provide right. So it's not going to be like a one treatment. Sure you for life. It is going to have to be some lifestyle changes, but at least getting the right MIKE.
In place, it will really give you in advance and it'll, give you an edge to make those changes and there's good studies that show like you're sick. sing, it doesn't necessarily have to be something that we shall that there could be something we shall down here. Pre by audits are basically foods that encourage the growth of a healthy micro bio and they are mostly the fermented foods that are naturally healthy for you to eat and are going to encourage the growth of a healthy micro, biome. So this is like him here, that's one of the popular ones for sure, but we should add, perhaps a little disclaimer here that certainly not advocating the people go out and start chugging a whole bunch of probiotics there's no definitive study that demonstrates them to show any great effect in normal, healthy adults. Just yet there's so much more. We have to understand, I think it's premature, to go out there and start fiddling around with probiotics, but it's perfectly fine to start eating more prebiotic foods.
toxic plus Moses he read about this. It seems like this is something we can get from cats, and this I found on line. Could somebody sent me a video of like a mouse attacking a cat and mouse of course get eaten, and it turns out that this is how this bacteria gets into cat is somehow gets into the mouse by the mouse, getting exposed a cat feces or something like that The mouse becomes fearless or even aggressive towards animals, like cats, cats think what the hell is wrong with this mouse kill it take a big bite out of it. Suddenly it's in the cats, digestive system Rents and repeat, really cool sort of evolutionary strategy here and then I found that it can get into humans and then that started freed me out a little bit. Of course, as do a lot of you we're talking about here, because it causes all kinds of problems, and now I've got little kids around my cats. What should I do about this should be worried about this here we should have a nice little chat about talk so plasma. This is apparent. but I've been working on for over twenty.
There is in my laboratory at Indiana University School, a medicine, fascinating pair. There is a single celled organisms is not a bacteria, but it's a parasite that can induce behavioral changes in its host Some of the remarkable things about this parasite is that it gets into all sorts of different animals, which is pretty weird because most parasites He shuffle through one or two different species, but toxic plasma can in fact any animal, including humans and infected. A lot of humans were taught billions of people carry this parasite around in their heads. We'll come back to that part of this talk about the cat and mouse thing you you mentioned, because that's the centrepiece of the parasites lifecycle, the host that it wants to get into the most is the cat, because the cat got is the only place that we know of where the parasite undergoes the sexual stage of his life
For some reason, there's something romantic about a cat got that the parasite really enjoys gets turned on by it. It allows them to. I went to the sexual cycle, which means the cats gonna excrete. These parasite eggs called oasis out into the environment for about one or two weeks. During the course of the infection and most cats, you probably won't be able to tell their infected it's a pretty stealthy infection doesn't produce a lot of over symptoms. So these parasite eggs get expelled into the letter box into the sandbox into your yard, into the water supply and these or sister highly infectious you can accidentally and just them ok or you can inhaled it. That's one of the major rather transmission. Any animal gets infected. So let's say a mouse comes across some of these oasis as its running around the grass accidentally and just those and becomes infected with talks or plasma. The mouse won't get all that sick, ok, just like any other animal, but the parasol
never leaves the body. It ends up going to you ve been the brain in the form of tissue cysts. Hundreds may be, thousands of these tissues is all throughout the mouse brain. It causes behavioral changes so mice that are infected with this talk. So plasma parasite, as you suggested when you looked at the video, are unafraid cats, which is remarkable, because that is one of their basic instincts, an unaffected mouse if it gets a whiff of cat odor it's going to scurry as fast as it can in the other direction. A toxic plasma infected mouse will actually be drawn to that sent and become easy prey for the cat, which is a very, very clever trick that toxic plasma has evolved to get back into the car. which is where it would prefer to be. So it's like creating a zombie mouse, not quite because the mouth still has other faculty, but instead its tricking view higher evolutionary. Our survival strategy, I should say of the mouse and short circuiting it in
honestly, killing the mouse right because of a mouse is chasing a cat and pissing it off its lifespan dramatically decreases. So it's actually just taking over the driver's seat that completely hijacks and of his mouth and ends up doing so for reproduction. So what happens when this parasite or this bacteria gets into humans can occur. problems could in my gonna have neurosis In my brain, you know what about my kids were. You will have seen in your brain, but what they do or don't do that still debatable question, because we can't really do those experiments on people like we can in mice what we can You are like correlation studies and we should say correlation is not causation, but we can look at historical records and Cyril Energy. We can take blood from a person and tell them if they have talks of plasma or not. So if these individuals do tat, Positive for talk so plasma, we know that they have this in the brain, some other interesting stuff.
is there have been done parallel? What we see an infected mice, so infected humans do have a tendency to take more risk. They become more anxious. They also have rage disorder and they have a greater propensity to becomes gets a frantic. So a variety of Neuro Psychosis that had been again correlated with the presence of the parasite in the human body doesn't say that they cause these things and again the science is still relatively new, so we gotta take him a little bit of a green assault, but some of the other interesting things it's them off of that is that there was a study done in private, non human primates that had talks of plasma and they were given. Paths of cat urine smell and the uninfected ones. I think it was actually bobcat. Ok, the uninfected primates were afraid of the smell. They would go away from the smell, but the infected ones were not, which implies that these, in fact
primates would have been eaten by a Bob cat or some other major predator of primates, just like the mouse is being eaten. So it's possible that the path the site is manipulating our brain in a similar fashion. That makes us take more risks and become easier pray and that would have been very significant back in our evolutionary pass, but how it bears in today's technologically advanced culture. What scientists have shown is that people infected with toxic plasma tend to be more risky entrepreneurs. They tend to be involved in a car accident more often than someone who might not be infected. So there d she this generalised risk taking increase in people who are infected with the parasite. Can I test myself or they? Can I tell my cats for this, and can I tell myself in this? I do believe you can testify
for it, and you probably could ask the doktor to test you, but I'm not quite sure what the information, how it's gonna be useful for you, because there is no cure for toxic plasma. If you have it, there's nothing, you can do about it. That's what my I have been working on it by just shed a little light into perhaps some facets of your personality. If you agree with some of these correlation studies that had been done on safe driver, I guess mostly I'm worried about my kid riots. I'd sure. If my cats have this, I don't know silly enough aunt em around my two year old, my newborn. Well, that's a good point, toxic plasma and invest gaiters hurry, usually very quick to add that you don't have to panic about cat ownership. Just follow some very simple common sense rules such as cleaning the letter box, promptly Brad using gloves why you do so now. There is a very real danger associated with pregnant women, and maybe you'd experienced this in going to the doktor, but
women are usually advised to not change the key litter at all, because there is a chance that if she becomes infected for the first time with toxic plasma during pregnancy, it can cross the placenta and either cause a miscarriage, were catastrophic. Birth defects, blindness and a car its defects and and and several which is swelling of the brain so so on. There is a very real danger there and most pregnant women are advised not to change box. Perhaps not the garden, don't play sandboxes. Perhaps you know with the other kids, because those are major vehicles, a transmission and, like we said, talks of plasma gets into all animals and these parasites, Sis Foreman, all bodily tissues, not just the brain. So if you dont cook your meat thoroughly the parasites
can get into your that way as well. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our gas bill. Sullivan will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by purple. Mattress many gimmicks promised a great night, but if you're sleeping on a crap mattress, you're gonna have crap sleep and that's why I reckon sleeping on a purple mattress, because only purple mattresses have the gel flex grid. I got one of my pillow. It adapts influx is around pressure points. It doesnt retain he. Basically, it's a mattress that a spoon you just right, no matter how you sleep, we ordered their best seller, which is the purple hybrid three and I can say, truly contours. Your body get some unique technology in there port of right where you need it. On my butt fallen, asleep and stuff, like that, you said my whole body falling asleep highly, recommend checking out a showroom near you. We went and tried out all the different malls or try your purple matters risk free with free shipping and returns getting a great night. Sleep starts with having a great mattress, get a purple matches go to purple. That comes I stored in ten and use code, Jordan, ten for a limited time. You
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Progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliate comparison rates not available in all states or situations prices very based on how you buy by the way can now rate the show. If your listing on Spotify. This is a huge help. It makes the show more visible on the spot. If I charts just go to George harbinger, dotcom, Slash, Spotify or search for us in your Spotify up click, the doubts on the right and make it happen now for the rest of my conversation with Bill Sullivan being now cause I'm paranoid, which made maybe means I don't have it. In contrast, in fact, his uncommon in pet cats that do little or no hunting and primarily or exclusively eat commercial cat foods? So there you, hopefully we're safe these are indoor cats. Am I no not to change the cat litter. I'd know where she read that, but she's been using. That is a good excuse the last few years, so we're
if that was the only needs to use it as an excuse, while she's pregnant. I don't want her to get mad at me for saying this, but that's the truth. It's only a potential danger, while she's pregnant your cats, don't go out and hunt and if they're not fed abroad under cooked meat, the chances of them acquiring toxic plans, That's pretty nominal gets no good to know. This is a weird aside, but I'm glad we covered it. You meant in the book as well about how abuse and neglect can get into our genes. While we talked about chemicals and exposure and poverty and things like that, but abuse neglect is interesting because we know a lot of people that have, of course have rough past. I mean it. Friends, it's no fault of their own you're, born into a how's, your adopted into a house that has these kinds of things going on or leave that house, even when you're younger. It's not just something you in court and quote get over even if your life improves for decades later on right. This is still somehow expressed in our genes
This was one of the most fascinating things I found while researching the material for pleased to meet me. In addition, Emmy, you can conceive how physic things in the environment might be able to interact with our body, but what we're talking about now or psychological of it. So this is really fascinating and what were referred. To hear adverse childhood experiences, things like bullying or neglect. They can obviously call psychological scar.
but what about genetics is showing us is that these adverse childhood events can also cause epigenetic scars on our dna. So if you look at children who have been exposed to these adverse events, they have epigenetic changes at key genes associated with our stress response. So what we specifically see in some studies is that these children have epigenetic changes at a gene that includes for the glucose core decoyed receptor. So this is a stress hormone. Is released by the body? Is everyone probably is familiar with cortisol? It's a common stress hormone that children who are suffering from abuse or neglect our screening all the time. It's crack this glucose court, Four receptor normally cleans up that hormone. You know
when most normal people, they have a quick burst of stress, cortisol released and this glucose cortical receptor kind of clean it up. Ok, so that doesn't cause any bodily harm. This gene is epoch genetically silenced in these poor children, and that seems to be present for life. even if they get into better circumstances. This genus just seems to have been shot off permanently and without that gene being regulated properly, these children unfortunate even if they get into a better environment, are still maladaptive to respond to stress and they tend to be more paranoid. They tend to be suicidal and they tend to be overly aggressive so it really did screw them, not not only at a psychological level but at the level of the genes. That's what the science is bearing out in that explains. Why that most of the children, not all most of the children, still struggle even after getting into a better environment
That shows the importance of therapy. If you have a background that you think maybe isn't still affecting you because you're you just can't be sure if this is express it's going to crop up later on. In a like something you don't remember shouldn't a fact you. But it's not really. The case ran this right in other corollary. To that study, is a lot of people? Ask that's not true for all children, so is there something special about the ones that show resilience, and there is at least one study that I read said that those children have a mutation in a gene that is encoding was called brain drain have Neuro Tropic factor beady enough and law. story short. That gene is specifically designed to protect and shield the brain from damage, so This remarkable that even the resilience is not something psychological that we summon from within its a genetic mutations. Tat makes you resilient. What about phobias? Imagine that these-
can also be contagious. This is kind of crazy to me, so it does make sense that right of somebody's gotta, a fear of something in its past down to something else their offspring, namely in same environment that fear could be healthy phobia. What do we define the says, is this an irrational fear or just a fear, the others, finds a different phobias and ensure and fear responses, astonishingly, complex, and it was kind of something that I drew based on a study that I read about that showed that in mouse models, fear can be inherited, so its work, explaining this a little bit cause it's a fascinating experiment and really shocked a lot of scientists to because it should not have happened. This result was very unexpected, so the set up pretty simple mice, normally love the smell of cherries. Ok, just like people they like the cherry sent, but not if scientists deliver a little shocked to them while their smelling the cherries, mice,
they get shocked whether smelling cherries quickly develop a fear of the centre come unnaturally afraid of the cherry smell. Now you take those mice and you make them. They have children. They have offspring that are born afraid of cherry, which is remarkable because they had never been shocked. They never saw their parents get shot. It's just this new phobia that appeared out of nowhere. Seemingly, why do we think this happens to the leading? A hypothesis is that this is but genetically control- and there is some good science to back this up and just to make it even more fascinating those children are born with this new phobia of cherries, their children also are still bore with the smell of cherry, so this happens through multiple Jenner. Patients, the effect eventually goes away so a kind of dilutes out down the road, but we see a man
Hi generational passing on this new fear, which is crazy, because that should not happen if you're a classic darwinian evolution, as you shouldn't be able to pass on a learned behavior, it would be like I taught myself how to play the town. I was so my kids should be born knowing how to play the town of mine. That's not how it works, but with some simpler responses like a fear response. This does seem possible, so it turns out- and this is another thing- that kind of blue my mind. I had no idea that sperm cells have odor receptors on law. No, did you know that no sperm can smell? They can smell things. You know in a crew, deaf, this in other words, but we have to remember that every time we taste or smell something were actually responding to molecules and when these Molly let's get into our body they go to more than just the olfactory ray, actors in our nose up in our brain, they somehow
I will also make their way down to spur its thought that when these chemicals trigger that receptor, it produces an epigenetic change. Ok, at the fear response genes. Now exactly how that no punishment but how the nuts and bolts of that actually happens that still a little bit of a black box, but it gives us a clue as to what's going on because they harvested the sperm. From these mice that were shocked and they were ever genetically different. Then mice that were not exposed to this shocking while they smell the cherries swords It like kids, who grow up, maybe in war zones or high crime areas. These aren't phobia necessarily but a lot of the work. It exists in these conditions friend of mine away interviewed the other day. You know he goes to war zones like Central African Republic and their kids that just grow up around constant civil war. It seems like if they are
to escape this or even if the country heels, and becomes a functional, developing or developed a nation in the next few decades, by some almost miracle at this point Their children and possibly also grandchildren, are still gonna have trauma from this year and there's actually historical records that track the parallel. What you said that if you look at the dutch Hunger famine of world, to their some historical records that were kept. This is when the Germans blockaded the Netherlands and they couldn't get food. There is a serious famine there for years and the children who were born of those mother. Two were starving at the time very interesting. We grew up to have problems with obesity and diabetes. The late I've had really kind of weird and honest,
did their mothers were starving at the time of pregnancy, another struggling with obesity, and it's not just because the environment changed necessarily. What is thought to have happened is some kind of epigenetic change that occurred, the fetal programming of sorts, ok and then, when scientists examined these children, they have ever changes at the Yom G that control obesity and metabolism. It's hard to say definitively what's going on there, but there's some hint that this kind of epigenetic inheritance might be able to occur in humans. But a lot more research needs to be done. Sir, going back to the socio economic factors, the war zones and so on, then, is a really say,
the situation, not only because of the present turmoil that exists, but I think if this epigenetic inheritance is true, it might explain why we get stuck in these cycles of violence from generation to generation to generation. We need intervention in order to break the cycle, an optimistic that is gonna happen on its own, because we see now very tangible things happening at the biological level and were powerless to do anything about that. Will we get in and intervene? It seems like June. We're gonna know more about how parasites, chemicals, combined with the environment, to affect our brains and maybe cause criminal or contribute to the cause of criminal activity, I assume this agenda. And laws and public policy and even medical treatment of people afflicted an idea Italy prevents and future crimes is kind of sounds like minority report. Rightly sir, we know you have this bacteria
because of your urine test and now you're. Eighty seven percent more likely to assault someone later and I gotta take these antibiotics in order to kill the bacteria to prevent future potential crimes, I know I'm sigh fighting it up, but that's kind of crazy. I knew If I'm not mistaken, I think I reference minority report in the book wackos there there's some shadows of that when you look at these words called Genome Wide Association studies are G, was people might have heard of that term, but basically, what it boils down to is your comparing the genomes of criminals, verses, non criminals and looking for differences and similarities. So there's been a gene that come time and time again in people who are very aggressive and been put away usually very serious violent crimes and its Emma away, some people call it the warrior gene but scientists hate that name, because genes don't and called for behaviors. They include for proteins.
and there are plenty of people who have this particular gene variant Emma away gene that are not violent and who would not harm fly, but it is really interesting correlation, and what this gene does make some sense. It produces. A protein regulates Neuro, transmitters in the brain, and when this protein is malformed because of this genetic mutations, you get a toxic build up of certain oral chemicals in the brain that had been associated with violence and aggression. There's a plausible explanation for why this gene mutation keeps coming up again and again in criminals but we can't use it yet, as like a biomarker like in minority report and screen people's genes and say you got, does mutation we're going have to keep you under lock and key were not at that level? Yet because there are people with this gene and that mutation who dont show any aggression and violence
so the puzzle, what about bringing it seems like that could affect our dna as well? Not scary is apparently no my kids a little bit small for his age nothing's happening in pre school. Everyone gets along but, like I went to school, I know how it can be and I'm a little bit worried about how something like bullying could have effects epigenetic, sir, or express itself in children it We hear all the time about. Kids, who are bullied really terribly in that the damages them psychologically. I see it in my feedback, Friday and Box, and we read about it all the time boy the very sad situation in its better today. Actually, then, when you and I were growing up- I mean- I know- I think it's safe to say there weren't any like regulations or programmes workshops in place, but still a problem. We need improvement, but what we are seeing: an adverse childhood effects and bullying is included under that umbrella. Are epigenetic changes if it's a chronic situation. I do think kids are generally
pretty resilient and they grow out over a lot of these things if they were relatively minor and short term, especially if they have people to talk to to get them through these situations, but chronic bullying, neglect or other adverse experiences. Then what we might risk are epigenetic changes at these networks of genes that control our structures. answers and those children might grow up to be a little maladaptive in terms of handling certain stresses or engaging in healthy social internet. Since we spoke earlier in the show about agency- and we ve talked a little bit about public policy in these. We have really explore this, but I'm wondering if you ve done any Christine any research on how the brains of liberals and conservatives differ and I pick one side or the other at its very non political show decidedly as such, despite the one star reviews that say, I'm conservative, moron and also a left. His shill usually not the same review, but I am curious,
I would imagine there have to be ways in which each side has either different epigenetic expression or different brain structure. Of some kind, because it really does seem like we are from different planets. Allow. The time team that way and that's what inspired a lot of scientists to investigate some of the basic pillars nowadays traits that exists between your average Democrat and your average Republican. I can discuss some of the findings that I found in my research for pleased to meet me. Let's talk about genes first, so people can do genetic comparisons between a group of Democrats and a group of Republicans and the one gene it. top again and again was a gene called d already four and there's a variant of this gene that seems to be present more often and Democrats and Republicans,
does the already for do and how might it be related to the personalities that we normally see in these two parties? The already four and codes for a dope Amene receptor- and this is a receptor that works in the brain and is linked to the reward response and people with this particular genetic variation. In that dopamine system tend to be more risk takers. They tend to be more, dare devils, they are open to newer experiences and, if you think about it, that on average describes a Democrat more often than a Republican just being more progressive and when two new experiences. I think this kind of what people think of when they characterize a Democrat, but a republican being more conservative likes things,
where they are likes, tradition, doesn't want change things necessarily and likes these traditional values and they dont have this compulsion through this genetic mutations to seek out adventures were new experiences. So that's one apple of a genetic difference between the two, not aware of any microbial differences between the two. They would perhaps be interesting to look at toxic plasma and see if there is an encouragement in one group or the other. I dont know if that studies been done, has anyone feeding conservatives poop to liberals yet or the other way around for that matter, because both sides have produced plenty of crap, so we won't run short on me cereal. I made that joke in my TED talk you dead. We feel really interesting experiments to do. I would love to see the outcome and it would be amazing right so something then- is along the lines of the DARE Devil, really that I told you about having a this was study, done an mice, of course, but you can
a mouse that is normally shy and timid. You can make that mouse brave by giving it bacteria from a brave mouse, is pretty remarkable. So your speculation some science behind it. You can fundamentally alter the personality at least a mouse, by giving them different microbes This conversation really has- and your book of course, really has thrown me for a bit of a loop in terms of human nature versus human nurture. I think he put it. really does seem like there's a lot more to be said for environment in surroundings, and I think, like a lot of us, we kind of new this but we'd. I never thought Would it be at the genetic level. I just thought: okay, my personality is this way because I'm around these people, I never thought. My dna it has actually been expressed differently because of things that have happened to my grandparents or my parents or me or things, I don't even remember things, I've been eating, things have maybe been smelling, or
bit by. I don't know, that's really crazy. Also seem, though, like theirs, The old surrounding this that is ripe for over promising under delivering outright grifter to rewrite there's a lot of brain supplements and people that say hey. If you attach these electrodes to you, it's gonna take Your dna and kind of the whole field of new tropics me. Not every single project in this space, but a lot of these things just seem like kind of nonsense and I believe and harmful. Have you into these at all yeah idea that there's a warning towards the back of the book, whenever we make these new discoveries or develop new technologies? Flim flam are sir gonna rush in and try to make a quick bucks. So you're saying all sorts of people publishing, books on how you might be able to apply genetically modify your genes through meditation or through changing your thought patterns or how you might be able to change her micro, biome through probiotics and so on. I think all that
game for speculation and its tantalizing to talk about, but it's really premature to think that if you're gonna Papa certain supplement or think a certain way that you're gonna alter your genes at an epigenetic level. There's just no strong evidence to support those sort of short term. Quick fixes are going to amount to anything biologically significant bill. Thank you. So much, there's a lot to explore here. I'm looking forward to the next ten twenty years of this science and it really does sort of throw a lot of things on its head. So good red and a good conversation really appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity, Jordan, thanks for providing this forum for us to talk about some of the school science I've got some thoughts on this one as for use, but before I get into that, I wanted to give you a quick bite of a recent episode. I did with Simon Cynic he's been on the show a couple times. Simon is one of the most sought after speakers and mentor in the corporate world, but he's no stuff shirt.
Here are some of his wisdom from the elite levels of public speaking as well as his. organizational skills that keep him at the top of the game. I have a vision of the world that does not yet exist. I'm gonna build it and whatever it takes for me that advance that visions, speaking writing teach whenever it is I'll, do it? I remember cell phones, are just starting to show. As you know, there is this great promise that we could leave the office because of this device. reality backfired? Is you don't need the office? The others comes with us last week were always at the office, because the derisory one of the things that happens when we together with us, if we're not coming engaging in checking, and he actually feel guilty that we're not do you know you walk into the subway deronda device if you're the subway it's going to the others you on the device we take on the phone with us, the battle,
you hold it in and look for the phone. You know there's something you know when we're not connected, we actually feel guilty, and the reality is that I d is don't happen. Were connected. Ideas happened when our minds have an opportunity to wondered, and this is why we have our great ideas in the shower were driving out for a run, we're just going for a walk, because the brainstorming session actually isn't the time to solve. The problem of the brainstorming sessions have to ask the question at lowering ourselves. These disengaged times is absolutely essential, for innovation is absolutely essential for problem solving its absolutely essential for creativity to disengage with the device. The problem is, I don't know what happened when I was writing leaders last. I would have so many ideas in the shower. I would forget them as quickly as I had them that I kept a dry ray Margaret, my bathroom rubbing, the tiles and so simple The shower wise majority that right and I do little someone I'm standing there- the next day, russian my teeth, eddies, during my writing on the title and its
another again. So if you look like a beautiful mind, it was ridiculous. All the child had these little chicken scratches all over, and I want to raise any of them because they know what ideas are gonna be sparked, but my point is like: if you figure out what works for you, do that keep a notebook by your bed. If you go for a run taken open, could I usually carrying a book on the back of my pocket? At times? They don't know what I've been haven't. I and, like I said, I lose them as quickly as and have them for more from Simon Cynic, including why it's important to have a worthy rival to stay sharp check out episode. Three hundred right here on the Jordan Harbinger show special thanks to hide you sponsoring this episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show hide. You is a great and he had been a fan for a long time since I discovered it in Japan couple decades now originally invented as a gum substitute in Japan words impolite to remove food from your mouth, its annesley, not polite anywhere to do that, but whatever hide she was innovative to have a texture like gum that you can swallow
biting into a hi chew. It's kind of a flavor explosion, little party going on in your mouth, with over two hundred unique flavors like dragon fruit. If I don't even know what that is acai, you might not know what that is either and very specific flavor profiles like Valencia, Orange VS, Mandarin Orange there's a difference. Apparently hi chew the dual layer, there's a special patented flavour release technology. Can I talk here and a unique chewy texture? It's not a gummy, it's not taffy! It's not too soft, also not do hard. I too contains no synthetic colours and his gluten free. We want you to love heights you as much as we do. This height eschew dot com sash. When that's h, I dash c h e w dot com, slash w. I am an energy win, an exclusive bucketful of hatred, candy and bag, while you're their ticket. How you can become a member of the high too to crew, which is an exclusive club where you receive special offers and all
cool things go to high dash to dot com sash when it really is incredible how humans are basically just biomechanical. Machines were programmed in part by our dna by our environment and even by one another and the substances, of course, that we end up sprang. are rubbing on ourselves, so much more study is needed, but the field of but genetics is really going to open some new insights into what makes us human and why we need to treat ourselves and each other a whole lot better. If we're gonna make as a species. I really learned a lot on this one. Big thanks to Bill Sullivan. All things Bill Sullivan will be linked in the show notes on the website at Jordan, harbinger dot com. If you buy books from any of our yes, please use our links in the show notes, because it does help support the show transcripts or in the show notes. There's a video goin up on our Youtube Channel at Jordan, harbinger dot com, Slash Youtube, my videos,
they're, not sure what happened, how to get a new camera but bills video. Is there an outsider right? You seen enough of me already, I'm at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on Linkedin. If you want to connect over there, I'm teaching you how to connect with people and manage relationships using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use. That's our six minutes networking course. That course is free. It's all it harbinger, dotcom, slash course. I'm teaching! You have to dig the well before you get thirsty. Most of the guess you here on the show subscriber the course as well to come. Join us you'll, be in smart, come they were. You belong the shows, created, souci Asian with podcast want my team is generating Georgius Sanderson Robert we're getting milieu, Campo even bear Josh, Ballard and Gabriel Miss Raw. He remember we rise lifting others the fee for the show is that you share it with friends. When you find something useful or interesting, you know somebody the epigenetic sore nature verse. Nurture or just some weird fascinating science share this
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Transcript generated on 2022-02-26.