Today's episode is brought you buy or a ring this Valentine's day by ordering and get fifty bucks off. A second smart ring coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. Why think, the fear of human beings who have not experienced the depravity of life and violence, how it really gets into unity and changes. Everything around the fear is that I don't want to believe that they too can be capable of those things. So we come up with these I should say that where we have layers of things, no, no no, no people can lose it very quickly when their life is threaten their families live. Britain, they don't have any big in music and do things they don't imagine they can do is very real, is very possible welcome to the show I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger, show what he called the stories secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in that conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts entrepreneurs spies

psychologists, even the occasional russian chess grandmaster more correspond and two or music mobile, each episode turns our guest tourism into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker, if your new to the Show- or you want to tell your friends about the show- and of course I appreciate it when you do that, we ve got our episode. Starter packs their available in Spain. father, also available at Jordan, harbinger dot com. Slash start these our top episodes organised by topic. The help new listeners the taste of everything we do here on the show just visit Jordan. and you're not come, Swash start to get started or to help. Somebody else get started with the show just visit, Jordan, harbinger dot com slashed starts to get started or to help somebody else do today, Ishmael Bear. I am just protocol this guy friend. He is absolutely incredible. Human being. He grew in Sierra Leone and ended up forcibly because make a child soldier who grew up inside and absolute

bloody, brutal civil war and faced just unimaginable cruelty. Obviously for something this by the way, not good if you got kids in the car, there's plenty of other shows you can listen to. This is probably not the one welcomes if you knew, this might also be a little bit heavy for you. But this story. It is harrowing to say the least. Today will hello Ishmael, as you searches for his parents in Grozny, unwillingly almost overnight from a child into and by killing machine that he himself can barely. recognised, not much more of a Production needed here. This is an important story. I am honoured to be able to bring it to you today and, if you're wonder, how I managed to get people like this to do the show it's all because of my connections and my network and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for free, not necessarily for your part. Asked if you have one, but for your professional and personal life, Jordan, carbon

dot. Com, slash course is where you can find it the course. Six minute networking it's about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring others to develop a personal and professional relationship with you, it'll make you a better network or a better connector and a bit thinker, that's, Jordan, Harbinger, dot, com, slash, coarse and most of the guests here on the show, subscribe and contribute to the course so come here. lobbying. So amazing company, where you belong now, here's Ishmael back tell me about what you saw ah early in the war in Sierra Leone. Your when did you first see violence, well, I'm in Sierra Leone, when I was growing up, was a pre peaceful country. In my I'd listed the water, the country that I grew up in there was no semblance of the type of values that came through the wall the only thing that I had really heard about was went away, wasn't a neighbouring country call Liberia and we started Ciera

just come in and they will recount what had happened to them and us They began to really understand what was going on or what war really was proud to that our version of what what we saw in common, no in raw ball in seems like dazzle, was something far fetched. Something in the movies Hollywood, nothing real tactile in that way, the first time are released, It was when the war came to my body to countries in the south and had gone about seven months where from my town and I tried to go back home in just one This in people were running away from war and what had happened to them? You know some people had lost family somebody work owing to children who had been Then they were trying to still run away with them and there was just a kind of restlessness and a kind of disbelief about what had happened. Everything felt different, even the air felt like I was going to show you to some extent. You know said I was my first introduction really to the reality:

of war in the book in one of the books along we're gone, you write about seeing babies in kids. Just covered in blood and dead people in cars, energy, you realise there was even a sieve. War going on or did you think it? Well, that's weird! There's like people that are bleeding you know. Was it obvious that there was a war? Did you think wildly people have been the victim of a crazy crime, I'm confused because it seems like you know what, We use to us is an american being here an hour cars are ok? The news is on were at war, it's over there and Iraq or Afghanistan, and this is what's going on and we just watch it years sitting there, and I would imagine, is confusing beginning because you don't really know, what's going on and nobody's able to tell you there's a large scale conflict. You might just think like these people got robbed or attacked where it's more than confusion is very

frightening, and obviously, one of the reasons why I wanted to write a book is actually to take away that mystery or demystify that idea. When people talk about Sometimes this element that is cool because it's happening over there we're gonna, going liberate these people, we gonna fight and do this and do that lesson soldiers. People, don't know what it means to really be in war or in a situation of war so eyes. I write This book when I was in the United States- and it was a response to that when those they always Sierra Leone orders what's going on there, yes, oh, how is it so for me when the war started in my country we knew there was a civil war, because there was a political climate that have led to the war and they start in the eastern part of the country. So before I came to my part of the country, I had heard about it quite a lot, so I knew the devastation that

had heard of it, but then I experienced at first hand, and it is beyond frightening, because what happens is that your life ceased to exist. As you know, it immediately, there's almost like you go to the store to get something to drink can come back home for the rest of your life, because that will may not exist anymore. So I wanted people to understand what that feels. Like. So people understand how volatile life it's you know how quickly things can shift for the worse, and you can if I get them back, so really that's what boys? All of a sudden, your towers attack and you start to run for like you, don't know where your grandmother is your grandfather. Is your parents, our way tabling saw you try to find a maiden can you gotta run for your life and basically you just start to run, because you imagine your civilian, its It is not a case of where police chasing you. This is people armed with weaponry. Sophisticated weaponry and the object is to eat a capture, you or kill you. If you resist

and there will be no trial at that moment? Probably never, and so is basically very frightening and it is not a school are sometimes people make it seamen all things, you know where you gonna running around in item where non none of that stuff- I don't know, I think most adults, most mature people realize war is horrific. What most people, I've never seen it literally in their own neighborhood. I am only too that no little better well, I know there is some sort of up close and personal stuff that you dealt with you know. That's primarily, is what the book is about, but whose doing this now you say the rebels and above all, for the rebels. You know what are they rebelling against? It doesn't really make a lot of sense. If there's a functioning government most people are living peacefully? Who are these people well, but that's a good question so for the book along we're gone I wrote it because the war came into my life. When I was very young kid, I was in a very politically involve because I'm a kid yeah,

worried about what children worried about. I was walking around thinking or the political climate in my country, so I think I can get you know I was here too. We were kids. Do So when I wrote the book I wanted to haunt that, but in retrospect thou of you I went through the wall and I understood what the reasons were behind it, which was that we had a political class eight and a government in power, the time that I basically destroyed the country's infrastructure, the way things were rule of law, everything- and there was a need- get rid of that government. There was a need for evolution and often when people prescribe a solution which is a revolution there you, what are outside as influence the outcome of that by then you know seeking the violent solution which is missing. let's go to war and then went to war begins you kind of control. What happens you know is the same thing listing U S. Example you this. I was unable to Iraq, Afghanistan, for whatever reason they want to go there for when they get there that risk in no longer works, because that's the name of war. You would have

idea you started and then it gets out of hand. So, basically, there were people who felt there was a reason. revolution that was needed, though the area where they wanted to the one by one to get rid of the government. I was in part time and a lot of people say later when realise that the area of itself was doing the same thing that he was advocating to be against, even in the course of the war that led to it as I realise that the country was more rotten than that so visible at some point. If you read my book closely what I try explain it didn't really matter what part of the war you were in at some point, everybody was basically doing the same thing put in the government army. Everybody was doing the same thing because there's no command structure, you know There was no something like a Pentagon whether it be like this at the road. This is what we gonna do if you out no area that was you're the man there. You became your command idea. You did whatever you could if you took it down

one mind you make sure you got it in. For a people from external forces used you to get the resources, are you got a you did what you could if you had a weapon you're part of a group, you noted, because only thing you could get now was to loot. If you came to tell you what, and there were three full bags of rice and some water and whatever you had the weapon you get access to it because you can make sure you get it. The war began that it lost its focus completely as most wants to yeah that point it becomes about survival and people can rationalize or justify pretty much any action that they take, because we hear about some of the atrocities and we'll get to that an bit here. Surely these people commit

these horrible atrocities they still thought. They were on the right side, even with all the psychopathic shit they were doing to civilians right, of course, they still were able to justify, of course, does the nature of war in war for war to function? There's a requirement for the other to the human eyes Yoda, and to do so, you have to justify. Why are you doing that? You have to be seriously I'm doing this because so, and so you come up with an explanation right, for example, to into a well ok we're gonna get rid of these guys were destroying this country. Then he became ok. Those people destroy my tie, my village and we gotta find justice, so we gonna create our own group. Are we gonna fight for that? So he just becomes that the language you see, you find reason to explain your actions that are crazy. That's why? What is always feels that a good guy right everybody's he's, a good guy, even if you find somebody else feel fighting against the rebels rebels thing that they are good guys because their fighting for people and you feel like fighting against

then because they come in and destroy your lively. What I was not so everybody's a good guy, nobody ever once a on the bad guy in a war, have never said that everyone is this I'm the one who's trying to fight this war, because I want to protect my people That's going on anywhere in the world right, the United States Army goes gonna stand or wherever the fight Isoude Taliban dies. You see where were fighting for people and the USA fighting to free from everybody's. he's right. But what is true is this is just an explanation to humanize each other and gives us the leverage and excuse to kill each other, because once you engage in war, everybody loses because life is no value anymore, because a piece of little, what a bottle of cap you can threaten to ever. You want with it right. So when we cannot talk whatever our differences, our problems are, we cannot discuss it and we get to that level way. Becomes that survivor tobacco stance, which is why somebody was shocked when soldiers combat,

from fighting in wherever you as is fighting in their traumatize, and they know. Sometimes it should themselves, they become violent and people are worried about why's. That is is because when you go and take out another life and irreversibly dehumanize humanize yourself, your own, your own being, and it takes a lot of undoing- it doesn't matter what the reason is that why you're fighting you cannot really say, hey but I knew I used to know you're nice guy you're running that without weapons was me. Let's talk about you can't you want to survive, you ve got to fight. You got to shoot, you gotta do things, you didn't think you they were to do. Otherwise you can live, tried to escape that area? Of course, after you saw some of the violence coming to where you were an you realized it, like you, realized, you couldn't even opt to be peaceful, because people thought your bull you're coming to cause us problems you are getting beat. in tied up and give captured by local villagers. Tell us about that because

that's kind of horrifying right, you're, just saying: hey, look, I'm a civilian and their say: no you're, a military age, male workers tie you or you know, cut into pieces, because we just don't trust you, because we can't trust anybody who's, not somebody who grew up next door to me right now, not even people. Rob next door to if you haven't seen them for a month or two they become suspicious me. This is the nature of civil war. That is very difficult to end, because civil was therefore in the country where people are the same from that country is so, for example, people are coming. I donno from Russia to fight us each year I will be able to distinguish.

the Russians coming to show you. What was really does a fight. Is your allusions? Most people look the same most. We will have the same common names. Physical speak, similar languages because very complicated to determine. Who is the perpetrator? Who is the peaceful one? I sometimes that decision. If you don't make it the right way, could cost you your life. So what happens? Is that people then begin to to survive? Just take the high ground in terms of say that everybody's bad, because from they're on you can survive. But if you say, maybe these guys to be good is the good luck, because your life, so ass, a boy run in one of the difficulties in the Savoy, Sierra Leone. That happened was that, because you study recruiting children, it change how people perceived childhood, a change of people perceive innocence,

right. So when you came through town where they why adults who survived brutal experiences from children would be coerced into fighting who had been dropped? Who had been traumatized when they saw you ass a child? Now they did that really see you anymore us how this little boy, all this lead we used to run around. They saw it as a threat because, if seen children will look like you did something to them. So there you have to explain yourself that you're not that person in the climate, where that's impossible to do so that basically we became difficult to be a child. You know, because anyway, you kill, people could wanna either to kill. You ought to recruit you so, basically, one where the other you had to find a way to survive, one of them all you had to join one of them. He read your language of choice, so this is kind of a health care

at this point, and you know spoiler alert, it gets worse as you go, but you mentioned the lack of trust. This is a little detail from the book that I felt was very interesting. You are very into rap music and these villagers captured EU essentially and they found a tape and there like what is that's right and they start interrogating. You and your team. Oh it's- this is down without p p, like. What is that right? So tell me how naughty by nature saved your life in this particular instance, where our in one of the things you know because I was living in the EU as an I study right in his book and- and I began to realize that when people here about a place like Sierra Leone or the places where this country they think, is almost on another planet, They don't realize that actually the people they are consuming. Particular your age group, the same content you maybe consuming.

swear, maybe we'll get to them a little later, some months later you, but they still are doing the same thing as I realise that the same thing you know like a kid born in the eighties arabic. I want in ages were consuming the same music. I was you know. I had a cassette tape. My father worked for an american mining company in the southern part of the country and through that company came american Popular culture through the porters, because, if your family, what for the company you had access to the quarters? The mining quarters said with a common area, so they had mounted televisions and so do you play? the U Mtv Rap, will come on now. So you know, I didn't have electricity, but when I went there was see so used to run the aims. And these people out There- and I was I while these Guys- look like me and they can speak English. So fast invests its I've got no doubt thou with them This is. I was introduced to this rap music

a broader went away for school, they brought me this Cosette teams who, like the open not by NATO, prevent any with a coup J with IRAN. Gives you so and they have always been our pockets, and in those days you have the workmen at the origin of Walkman. You know the battery and if you didn't want your battery today that you had a pencil, you flip a cassette like this are reminded. You know who didn't you. We worked in a things generation and we know what that is now they down. That's fine, You would remind it manually to save gadarean think about its ideas, because a battery was it didn't you can buy. This is a remote areas or you can just get viruses like those. We have to make sure when you press play. You will listen to what you wanted so anyway. This causes were always in our pockets,

because you are also doing the running of the empty Almah all that stuff. So at some point because, as I mentioned, the ways in which you could have spoken about your innocence was no longer believe in this community that people are looking for other ways and I happen to have a cassette in my pockets. Wendy pointed out in this area. What is this- and I say this? Is it the city, and so they put it in a broader concept and put it in and then obviously you know who's that would open he started playing and there are- or what is this- and I have tried to explain tat I wanted is in no sense that gonna, like a parable, I guess you're gonna, save enable our is your Cosette. Can you mine it so we know soldiers they have their, whose thou do They are not those they put in a good genoese in. I need love, you know, and I was thinking but there was that I really need low right now. What nobody's given it to me, but I'm gonna, put the rough and afterwards,

it was love and they will. I get is just a kid, so that was what made them believe that I'm a kid because it, though what I was doing was silly answered it gave me about my. How did you explain. how did you explain door? They like what are these words mean, and then you had that cuz, I'm imagining you sitting in front of a village of like armed people tied up with ropes, ended there like what o p p, meaning you like. Ok, you're, pry, not gonna like this, but not I didn't, have the very sorted. This is our open tickets war? just as the name of the song. I thought that will get me into all. Other areas are not yet sober. I just tried to explain to them. The equivalent of this in our culture will be like a storyteller was very Erica, whose telling parables and doing things and kind of Fiji jiving with obvious, as I got that, but you know

so, for example, those out all people you know we can have. That sounds like a cholera spoke earlier, like the towers just at this point, how just right, whenever they call latch onto I, was ready to go with it, because I thought out make their wonders and that I was in who they thought I was I wanted to think of me. As whatever was the same. I like yeah, no, so whatever that was, I was willing to go with it, while the idea you could have been killed except you had a naughty by nature. Cosette in your pocket is pretty wild to think about yeah, it is men is very interesting because you but when I was right in the book, I had to get permission from noted by nature. and from rendezvous from everybody's lyrics. I use my publishes reach out to them and they were like he can have no like that. I can have the permission when they heard the story

Randy, not the way we were making music. We didn't that being that setting to do tat for somebody, so you can have the permission to use the lyrics in the book enough yeah. They must been pretty surprise because, most of the time when they get a request for Lyric permission, it's like we're going to use this video game, we're going to use it in a movie, we're gonna sample it for another song and the like. Ok, write me a check and the like and others as other requests from this guy. Who is gonna, get executed by veal, There is in Africa, but then he wrapped part of your song. They spared his life and there, like ok, does give this guy free ass Is it the lyrics in a book? Now does basically what everybody did an equally run dm seek, as I use some of the lyrics soon, when I talk about them and so actually funny. Ray, I was on my way to Aspen Colorado to give a talk to give a reading, and I am sitting at Denver Airport- and I see this guy and I thought to myself. I recognise guy

That's like DMZ from rendezvous and is sitting at the airport across from me. I saw he kept. Looking, I mean it. I'm sitting in a shred goal is a young man. You know when I was a kid always you're alone, this village in Africa used. listen to your song and then all of a sudden, you standing over me and he's like your name musician Rosa. Yet so you're my reading a book while about us in order lyrics, stop it was there. they're gonna, but I'm going to ask those like me to have a positive tonight, and I also ask the good talk. There, you know other Aspen Institute, and he was I you know I mean: do you wanna Como state intend that story to introduce meanwhile, was that this will be the best way to ever, introduce me as a rapid I've never had any of that and also show you surely was there anyway. I could not have even made a story. I couldn't imagine my was that, while they are I've come a long way from home. You know yeah, that's incredible!

the years sitting there thinking should I approached him, I'm a huge fan. He approaches you he's a fan. You end up onstage and run DMZ cancer. Yet telling this store I mean That's it's gotta, be a highlight of your life experience to have someone like that happen to you of course. Of course. Yet, while of no pressure, though cause you're standing up there, I wouldn't You know you're used to tell a story jeez to media, but going up in front. However, many thousand people at a run. Dmz cancer. That's a lot of pressure! It is a lot of pressure and our of the hype man, you know he has sciences, thereby you know I come from is guarded as well, but tonight we're not gonna talk about war, but just let us body, you know our body up there now you know so it was I survive, is a good United States like I did like that. yeah. I can imagine you know the story had kind of gone a little bit towards the dark stuff that we're gonna talk about here. In a minute, people would be like yeah, whose idea was this like we're trying to I got.

To drink. Then I'm ready for a rap concert. This guy Celimene strident sign up for this year is b of it, but I can see that how interesting that must have been both for him and to be your position, but yeah, you probably had to think good. art about what you were going to say so that you didn't just go off the deepening and start talking about yeah I've been ours, But what about what I? Basically I was trying to explain to them was the power of the arts like when you create something or whatever you call the word you dont know where goes and what it does to people and how that Plainfield it is so why'd. You have no idea the thing to say what you put out in the world who it touches whose life he changed, life and saves. You know not know. So that's basically what I tried to talk about the power of that you know such a contrast from the reality of your situation as well. Right, you're, using rap music is kind of. I guess it's an escape right and unjustified Really so could you don't have a lot at this point in your life? Is a kid going back to your choice,

Sierra Leone, you don't have a whole lot to look forward to you, know you're separated from your family, and this is horrible, but I just want to go over some of the atrocities that you were seeing during this time, because it's easy is to say of there was a war going on, but this is very graphic. The things that you are dealing with, and I think it's full to get an idea of the sheer human brutality of this conflict and buy them. If you're listening to this right now, if your kids or you're in the car with your kids, I would turn this often pick it up at another point and put on some cocoa, melon or somethin, because this is not gonna, be a kid friendly part of the show here. But in the book- and this is just some of the things from the book- there are kids showing up. Your camp or other EU meeting along the way with our? U F, which, the rebel force name carved into their chest in all of their fingers are missing right. Yes, what is the purpose behind something like this? Is it just a message to others? Is that the idea

well I've been someone during the war every on his side was trying to show the other that they are stronger than they are capable of. Vile is more than the other side. This is basically what you tried to tell the other person that all the other group that you have power over them. What are you can bring more value to them to destabilize whatever they hold dear? You start with a community. She come to town you get, some Can you give them weapons in you? Have them shook their grandparents in front of everybody so from their own? Everybody knows you means business. You understand the ideal voice to ring terror to people. That's it. and how you bring that turn the more you meant it. My shows Yoda stronger site, so that, basically, what everybody was doing for the area of in particular, there also try to make sure that sometimes when they capture kissing recruited and they did not escape so by causing, are you have on your body anywhere? If you escape any other group found you

put your clothes of any, so are you they will kill you, which means that you did not escape, because if you did even civilians who tried to kill you and your armed tried to kill you, you will not be afforded the explanation that your kid- and this was inflicted upon you- you would not be so. This is a way to make people state, but even in the wide serve ass a kid when I was in the war to make sure that you comply, they will show examples by killing people in front of.

so you understood that if you didn't follow the order, this is what will happen to you, so he was like some silly. They way we like or do you want to join us? Think about it? No, you did not doing you because you will be shown what consequences I, if you don't do what you're told so somebody you begin to realise that whatever they ask you to do you do with your life, depended on it. The more valid she committed. The chances are, you could survive the next day and if you didn't, you won't be able to live now with this may mean and hacking that started in the war started, because somebody in the area of decided that to make sure that the population knows that they will vote for the next people who wanted to run the government. They will cut people's hands up so that you won't be able to vote, but what I didn't realize that what is that person wanted to vote for the area if they became political you don't have any hands anymore. So what did so you see? So these things were agreed in war. Things don't make sense.

Sounds like you could make a greater burden? Were you really think about he's? Just bought has been inflicted on people and sometimes also putting people's heads? Were children one out of a voting age. So how do you explain that? Did you know? I saw people we condemn not even register towards doing devoted beginning, like I said, the madness of voice does with an idea people take up. This is really great, let's go for it and then they do you think it. For example, the drugs are introducing the war came out of that they just want to people to be so. I do not question the values that people started taken mismatch of different drugs. We know we had all kinds of things that were terrible for our health, but people took because you needed to survive. Divided You know like the Brown Brown, for example. You know yeah. Let's talk about that, its very weird to hear that you were doing this round Brown, which is essentially gun. powder and cocaine mixed together which, like why gunpowder it doesn't do anything is hopefully the wives tales folk believe that aid for battle. So

he's gonna put gunpowder in their. Whether mixture does something to offer the effectiveness of the cocaine in the way. Our really does I recommend that you try moving dots, every gunpowder here to make our lack okay. So we value but now that we're guise of measures are what is also Dino again, there's a little bit of followed you to what is new in reality to it, which is also is that people are just trying to pull substances together, so that didn't have to deal with what they were saying and doing and been part of it and whatever could get you as high as possible, so you feel, like you're covered in a long nightmare. You took it here so that, basically, what happened and people just went on with somebody forgot addicted to the valley, your Ebay situations, where people feel like they drank you, no blood

make them stronger, ended. It people did archives of crazy stuff, like in Liberia, next door neighbor. There was a general who was part of a group called general, but make it any images bullfight naked in war. General Buck Lake? It is. His name was what you call them the general but naked that was his borrowed name while so you go find naked now. First of all, it is several bad things about that. That's all you know that the press is not broken, Even if you ever closer, you can get bullet. We know you you just bullet. Does God bless your little beneath your make? It does wanting second you're fighting in the Bush, their losses. skills in order animals who knows there, so obviously this procedure noticed something is now going up very. Were there to be like ok, Our unity is gonna, because both naked unit is gonna Claudia, but then they were terrorized me with because emerging somebody shows of where arm naked. in your town yeah, I would you be react to that. You gonna be like who is this? I won't. We dream it signals that you

not dealing with anybody with any sort of professionalism that might spare you anything you're, just dealing with a complete, crazy psycho at that point, so it's almost like it builder show up uniforms, you might be like. Okay will surrender everything will be fine, they're not going to hurt us they're here to take over it's fine, we'll do it, but if people show up naked with weapons you're just like run because No, you can't reason with people like that absolutely, but they gave that's the nature of war. You want to terrorize yeah your opponent as much as possible. You won't even the thought of your opponent. The person was coming for it to scare you to the point that you run away, and so that's what people are just coming up with all kinds of different ways to just do that, and it got come ITALY out of hand. You know into early. We got completely out of hand anywhere where what happens is usually the case, because our people,

who's your mind, because his inhuman to do the things that we doing what we each other so eventually before gonna break the gonna snap. Something is gonna to happen to somebody you know, and if it happened to them at the moment you just the battlefield, then they just go crazy or sometimes happens to them when they have left and gone back home these. Why the transition from a military force into civilian life is very difficult, because EU operated war is very fast. Base thinking quickly making decisions in almost like another seconds, and then you come back to see their life and then you have to abide by these rules. Everything slows down, but they all your brain is so height into since so many possibilities of damage. So I soon as somebody walks pass your fast, you think the up to something yeah. You understand that as always soldiers combat they lose it completely. You know sounds movements here, yet this makes a lot of sense, and you hear about this was like PTSD, where guys are in a battle or a conflict or a seat

reparations one day and then like two or three days later there at the mall, with their family or their friends in Iowa whatever and they are not able to relax and not able to adapt and its because they ve been ripped from one environment put into another so quickly or that's one of the reasons you know, the other reasons are of course trauma and things like that, but it makes perfect sense that you can't adapt quickly to a peace time environment, especially if you're in a very disorganizing chaotic war environment where everyone's taking drugs, the brutality is off the charge, there's no place that safe, you don't know who to trust. Even your own team or side or village might not be friendly to you at some point. You are also taking these white capsules. What were those did? You ever figure with those capsules where that they were giving use it methamphetamine some sort of speed progress on sort of speed. I never

figure out what they want. You know her. Ok, when I was right in his book at this is one of the questions always was asking myself. You know, I think, if your journalist you, in search of seven war, you come prepared Review of sample back to take what you see make no mistake why you got through the reality of war of life itself. You're, not thinking, went to survive zoonotic dynamic. If one of these capsules me like I can try to sample it ran, I see what it is you just going through it and when you come out on the already below. While how did I come out of that yeah? I wish I knew what he was always I could find out I know that he was in something that I wanna take sure I'm always Look I whatever happened to me to try to extrapolate something good from it and Other ways that I used to look at it was when I started school in the United States when I was high school and I, when I went to university in some of my friends, were for the first time, beginning to experiment with drugs deadline.

and I was looking at ever like you know: I've been there done that you know like you, I was a little more. We didn't even know here that I can offer you. It was a complete bogging now, but also it was just the fact that uniting because it was of such a young age about taken so many drugs at my system, sort of the entire, of what could get me to be high was very had gotten really really. So if I wanted to use drugs in high school or university, I needed a trust fund for it. because it wasn't gonna be that I would just did a hero. Cocaine work, I've only like parts of it. I'm serious now, like I remember when I first my adopted family, took me to death, and they wanted to play my they put novel king? Like this guy put maybe like ten shots of novocaine before work, and he was looking at me with a work in progress at all. You know out from the EAST village in New York path because thank you vice anything has got just. Nobody will believe me

I deserve does weird like that. You know: do have never met anybody. So for me, even under together. I thought to myself if I start to take drugs, I really to find a trust one. Somebody up here, you have to take a mortgage on your house or something like that of take alone out. I'm exiting the dentist being like? How is it possible that you're still feel it like can't legally give you more vignette tearing valor. This is unsafe amount at this point, but during the war than if you're taking all these drugs. I assume at this point you just full on addicted to drugs at this right. You are not able to function without it at some level. Yes, there is that and then obviously that becomes a new reason to fight, because then in detail, whether town or other group that we're going to attack, they may have this stash. So obvious, everybody becomes quite bottom because you wanted right in

The ammunition yeah you they wanna come down from the high but is also because you're the high you also get addicted to divide is itself for you. So all of these things go hand in hand. So to the point that that's personally, what you're doing it adopts a pointer for war was something happened that is in between those two pleasantly, because if you stop, then everything comes back to you and then that's gonna really messed with you and your being you, you can sleep, you don't have nightmares. So you constantly keep yourself moving been high, engage anymore. Wireless Pontio removed from it. Your listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Ishmael Bear will be right back this episode, sponsored in part by masterwork, You know I spend a lot of time with really fascinating people and topics, but sometimes the most interesting thing right under our noses like how one of the oldest asset classes in his. he is on the right are of most mom and pop investors like you, and I talk about bluechip our work actual,

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Maybe one of adults as a star. Not bad masterwork has already signed up almost three hundred thousand investors and you can join them by going to master works, tat, art, flashed, Jordan. Again, that's masterwork, star art, Flash Jordan. The important disclaimers at master works TAT. I owe slash disclaimer. This episode is also sponsored by better online therapy, but our help wants to tackle some of the stigma around mental health. I'm here to support that, I am not ashamed to say: I've got you therapy, tell me tremendously, we ve been taught that taken care of Our mental health shouldn't be a part of everyday life, but it makes no sense right were dieting or gettin physically feared, trying to stay fit, focusing on investing in the health of our mind is just as slash in my opinion, more important and don't make the mistake of waiting until things are judged unbearable. Before you try therapy, I did that is well. Therapy is a tool to utilise before things go bad, ideally and then help you avoid those lows better help as customize online there

be they ve got videophone even live chat sessions with your therapist united to see anyone on camera if you'd want to end its much more affordable than in person therapy. You can start communicating with your therapist in under forty eight hours Why invest in everything else, and not your mind? Our listeners get ten percent off your first month at better help: dot com, Slash Jordan, that's b e t, T r, Hd Lp that calm Sash Jordan. thank you so much for listening to the show. I love creating these conversations for you. These stories. Incredible as you can hear all those code you here for this sponsors and the discounts in I don't expect you to memorize that we put him on one page, Jordan, harbinger that come slash, deals is where you can find it. Please consider supporting those who support this show now back to Ishmael. Bear Do you know where the cocaine came from an Africa because you don't cultivated in Africa right so did it come through Europe or just from South America to Africa? Who was distributing it a idea

if only we knew those people who are destroying any they try to find them to prosecute them would provide, is justified in these circumstances, I, with the weapons whenever there is war, what you are to realize that whenever there is a war anywhere, it becomes a place where there are few folks in the world who this is where it come to make money, because the body becomes. Very ports is no longer a border, so you can go in, out of that country. Does anybody know you were there? So it's not like you wanted to comment. during the time of the war that your passport will be stamped to say that you will. Surely you can London when, in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night, in a flawed whatever you wanted and fly back out, collect your money or collect minority written. You know, diamonds in return, for their leaves, so does why wars continue longer because people profit from it. so there are people who was business is that whenever there is a war somewhere, they come and bring those things that will make the work continue long so out the confusion

so nobody knows who they are people, nobody out. What is how to find them to prosecute them? This sort of us, a sad state of affairs in effect of every conflict, is that people will go in humans ass, you have human trafficking, they'll bring weapons in sea of arms trafficking, there's drug manufacture, because no rule of law in the area and militias need money, so they will manufacture drugs, then distribute them from that area out to other places like right now, there's a massive captain on problem. I don't know if you know it categories, but its essentially drug, that's manufacturer, to think largely in Syria and the government is. manufacturing. It in selling it all over Europe and all over the world, because it is something they can make an pharmaceutical factories, EL for hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars, depending on how much there making a moving and it's all so that they can profit off of and fund a conflict. So you end up with war profiteering, but you also

with some of that profit, creating and prolonging the conflict, because they're bringing in more resources for each of the sites that are fighting. So it's really. Unfortunately, it's kind of a vicious cycle of zones, you know you know want to cut off your source of funding unless your winning their, unless you one, I should say- and even then you're like will. Why am I gonna? Stop the train now getting rich and in our case, in addition to all of what you say, we have natural resources that everybody wanted right. have diamonds. We have timbale of books that this was the time to get it for free practically for nothing. You know, so you going to find that person who has captured the area of the mind, we're diamond and then they're, going to capture civilians, who then take that diamonds are free to free labor, Well, he knows all of these things are happening, but one thing I really want to make clear because for many years people would always cities. Whenever you talk about civil wars in a place like Sierra Leone or other countries that have been that are far war. People always think that, where the

What is that? Coming from China, everybody always blame China or former soviet weapons yeah from Russia AK forty seven, but the work was coming from everywhere, everywhere, including the United States so lightly. during the war. We had some m16 that had been brought in. We had jittery sweeter german rifles if we had done from israeli users, so everybody was coming to set up. He was in just like one, but everybody was profiting middlemen make his shoulders guns were coming in and besought and those bullets, because a gun is not effective without the bullets, so there were people making the bullets and bringing them like. If a gun does a bullet is just a big metal pieces. Stick there you can find somebody will you commit them with it, but you can't shoot them, so you need the bullets always gone with a bullet, not narrow factories. You're making bullets were yet

we had a lot of it because a lot of damage with it, so they are people were bringing in knowing very well. I was going to be put in the hands of children in the hands of people who give children and women who destroyed a country, but yet they said it was business right, and so they did it. You know I saw this is what happens in was were so didn't how, if the external factors are not there that exacerbate this. Sometimes these things cannot continue much longer really right, but because he knows that coming you have a problem and how did they get here on planes in sheep's on different things is going through the ports that people know they know. What's in it. For this, they allow it'll to pass the there's. The incentives are disinclined rake as the people, with no power who are fighting to conflict and are stuck in a conflict of action. But we know way too often survive.

unless they get involved in these illicit markets which perpetuates the market, its prisoners dilemma the first person to stop selling drugs or stop human trafficking or stop drug manufacturing and distribution. They risk death. Right. So you don't want to be the first one to say. Ok, I don't really need to do this anymore. You want to be the last want to do it, and then, at that point, if you're the last one to do, it you're making more money doing it. So it's at war now and making more money than I ever dreamed of. Why would I stop now right, so you almost have to have this external pressure to do it, but all of the incentives, our line in the wrong direction. It's really a horrific sir. There is almost no send it to the brutality- and I know I mentioned no kids in the car. I meant to go over this list earlier, but I'll just briefly list some of the things he wrote about in the book, which is old people executed with their genitals, cut off beheading people in front of their kid

parents cutting open pregnant women and killing the baby's slicing babies and young children and half because they made too much noise, forcing sons to rape their mothers. I mean: is this like depraved shit man? How long It take you to sort of wrap your head around this. After the fact I assume in the moment. Is blocking it outright? You have drugs you're, going through this violence, yuri perpetuating the violence in many ways. After the fact, how did you start to even realize how horrific that situation was what was that process like it takes a lifetime, I think I'm still dealing with some of it the majority of it I've learned too, but it took quite a long time for a long time. I will first of all you even the basics like when I came out of the war when I was removed from the when I went to rehabilitation programme for about eight months, just to learn to function, to learn how to sleep to sit in one place. It I'll be restless to not resort to violent means to solve any problems

like. All of these things are to learn. To just visit could be a kid again. If you do, I really didn't have those things that are of innocent children have towards the word. I didn't. because every time I walk now, I might everything about me was heightened. I had seen the word for what it is from the best of it to the worst of it. I was very restless to this day it takes a while to wrap your head around how this can happen, but what you ve got to realise that the situation was not only isolated, replace like Sierra Leone anywhere where this war. This is what happens. All of these things happen in some places is built in you able to recorded, like I wrote about it in some places. You hide it

because you don't want people to know that kind of brutality. What anybody who is in war, these things you'd witness them, are you be part of conducting them? There's no other way even worse, that are forced to save people's lives. These things exist in them, because people lose themselves in trying to do. When I try to go in battle, and all of those things, because everything collapses and in our war, particularly you know what was horrible, but at some point as a rule of law. It wasn't like, if somebody shot you could take them to the court's right or please make a comment and intervene they like that every policemen did want anybody to note. I do a policeman, because that could make big trouble for them. You know so if you can imagine living

New York City? What is no ruler? Rodya, no police is known about everything goes. You can see what happens when people right and the closest I used to when I used to say to people that I grew up in a place where you come in said to any of us that the things that happened was possible. Nobody will believe you nobody believed it until he started happening and when I lived in New York now tell my president is in nobody's things only happen there and I said: ok, and one nine eleven happened in New York people that I

We're very well educated got so upset in that woman. The weeks and months that followed the Americans that looked different from them, they were willing to kill them. One is to attack them. Imagine that with no police, no law and oppress everything just collapse. What would you do? You will go further than that? The only reason why people stop even to this day because they doing the right when corner virus started people started attacking people Asians, because you think you're responsible, for there are all kinds of violence. This is what happens here will be capable of the worst things but giving them this face where there's no regulations- people just rule before these things came to us. Everybody said no will never be like that. We can't be like that were very nicely today we were, but there were realised that, yes, we can't lose our humanity if everything is set in place for that to happen, we

yea, I want to clarify those that I don't think this is inevitable right. I think there can be times where things fall apart or theirs problems, and I don't think we're just change. Barely holding on to civilization? I think a lot of things have to happen in order for people to lose them humanity and especially to go down that road and it's not just my opinion, Rutger Bregman, who is on the show episode four hundred and ninety four talks about there's a lot of science and sort of real life case studies that show you know where that is buffered. From acting on our vilest and most selfish instincts by a thin veneer of civilization, we actually have quite a sick bed rock of civilization and civility which one another and good natured towards one another, but, like you said when things start to fall apart and multiple areas right, so you have violence, but you so have food insecurity, and you also have people perpetuating violence against you and you have no rule of law and you have no sort of hope for the future and you also can escape the area, among other things,

Then you have the ingredients for a brutal civil war like the one that you faced, but it's not, I dont think let it police went away in New York tomorrow. The whole place would turn into opposed to apocalyptic nightmare some areas for sure, and it would be bad actors, but I don't think everyone would start. There's a famous quote. I can't remember who this was but I agree with what he said something along the lines of I raping large and murder as much as I want to, which is zero right? I already do. that as much as I want to do, which is zero. That said, if people are trying to kill, at any given moment- and it was the majority of other people that were afraid of me and I was afraid of them- then we have a different scenario on our hands. You know, I think people your eyes off the want, but I think this even this idea of civilization of civility it depends on where what the situation is that what is happening, I think the fear of human beings who have not experience the depravity of life and violence, how it really gets into community and changes everything around the fear is that you don't want to believe that

They too can be capable of those things right. So we come up with his ex pleasure say that where we have layers of things not autumnal, people can lose it very quickly when their life is threatened. Their families living threatened? They don't have any they can lose. It can do things they don't imagine they can do is very real is very possible, but I think we say these things, because we don't want to accept that we too can be those we condemn. I agree with you, for example, look at the American civil war. It wasn't that long ago, right, the American Civil war was very violent. There was still a level of civility at that time in these United States of America before that happens, but people lost have said very quickly between the south and the north for reasons some people even went to the same school some soldiers with the West Point and also sought into a pull them from the southern from the north and you're willing to inflict violent on the other. Because of an ideology a small way. You know is think about it. I think we don't want to believe it, because we think that it will make us feel like well we're not really

symbolizes the order. Maybe it's not a possibility. I think it's about when you like. You said when you push human based corner, where you take away some things from them, they would go to their most corner instinct, which is to survive as survival requires. Sometimes lashing out think about what happened during coronavirus right people are going to the store to buy everything. They put nothing in that hey. Maybe my neighbor is old and need something nobody thought of that. They just said I want the most so that I will survive that isn't controlled. You know there are so many other things. You know this is although I will say, there's a lot of instances of people helping one another during corona viruses. Well, yes, of course, the news in the media focused on the worst part of humanity, as they often do, but there are a lot of instances of people banning the

other as well and look don't get me wrong if someone comes after me or my family they're gonna get cut in half right, but I am also not going to cut their children and have just to make them miserable. Yet you know I'm saying like there's a little bit of a different but is even in the wiser alone. There were a lot of good moments, but because we are talking about the nature of people to slip into the horrible, that's why we're emphasis? in that, even in the wiser earlier this year on year, war ended because European is wanted to end. They started happening. What everyone all of these things are going under. People were very kind it then it costs them their lives who took in children like me, coming from all nobody believed that could ever change or do anything with their life, so these things were still happening at the same

time why these other things will happen where people losing observes completely so he's not necessarily one or the other. You understand what I'm saying. Yes, so I think what what it is that I think I've heard a lot, for example, give you an example. Some years ago, I think it was in Canada was somewhere. I was on a television show, and I have sat in this chair right after a canadian soldier My thing was rising in Afghanistan or wherever, and you ask anymore, he's very heroic questions about war about you, no dissent seen war. You know rule of war. All of these things had enough. There was. It was my turn to be interviewed and so ass soon ass. I sat down the whole specifically said to me. Why is the first time somebody has sat in the sit there kill somebody young? I said to her. What about our soldiers? I just left it is. I know by was perfect Not so genuine I've gotta says what do you think it to point to come home? I, like you, know

yeah yeah. What do you think it's up what you think I was just there be like I'm a nice Kennedy I have here. You know, let's talk Nobody you know. No war is violent, requires, kill somebody, so you can live, but I think it's easy to say that, where the Addis Ababa vary too, do you like that? we can't yeah because offer we don't see. There was an effort on our behalf. So is very easy to put the here all thing around our people will come, but whereas the way it happens, sources in the naked version, because we see so. There's no here at the end of the day in war, because we all sit, we will see what becomes of everybody in that moment, some very nice people, decent people who can go back. I have many right. Also, do this work as a? U Unicef, brutal ambassador. I've got to places where I met walls. That outcome let me fear by everybody and they have grandchildren who come running in their arms in the village and black. I advised by the public,

bark and they loved them daily, but when they entered a bush to fight completely different. So what I mean that these things exist everywhere in the world is not being Some people out there somewhere and I think we all have those tendencies. Monsieur situations are ripe, Tina, I will Lucy, I dont want or losing, of course, I've been through it. I came out of it I have a family and I don't want to go there. But I will never make a promise to anybody that if things come to that level, I'll be this nice peace, loving guy player, enormous, maybe two before I love human rights and everything I mean. If somebody as I can promise you what I will do to them I can't make any promises ahead of time, because I know what daddy's yeah, I think, there's definitely sort of a difference of

philosophy on theirs? I mean I don't have an opinion one way or the other I'm bringing the counterpoint from Russia brakeman. That shows you know, and historically, humans have not acted on their most base instincts. Just given the ability to do so, it does take a lot of the downfall of what we consider civilization before that will happen right, it's not just, but for the police. my neighborhood? I would be murdering my neighbours because they have a nicer tv than me there's a whole lot. That has to happen before that, and it sounds like what you are saying is: yes, there's all that needs to happen, but those things happened very quickly and very suddenly without realising that their happening out sooner or later on the right track. Absolutely tell me about trying to find your family right had quite a journey. You know you were this close in it's kind of a heart breaking, while the whole book is our bringing, but its of particularly heartbreaking. Part of the book tell me about this work during the war that one of the things that kept me alive and going was that I get it. I ll be able to find family

you knocked guide, immediate euchre family- that I'll be able to find them in that whatever was going through. A series of violent they'll be a reason for it for me to have gone through them and obviously so. Each time I heard where they could be that gave me Moselle to contain you know to continue moving run into was where I was going, because what you have to allies when the war which most people in Sierra Leone at the time was People are not really leaving the areas going anywhere. So is the first time. Was people run away from home so as not to It wasn't around it. I want you out, I gotta know Google Map, where you could be our eyes. I go let how good cognizance, where you ve, cutaway, distinct jolly bill I'll get as gunshots going from that area. So we go this way he felt and the next one, they're coming from the areas that we go this way, and so that's what I did I almost

my family and then I lost them again. I saw that really devastated me and I thought to myself what was the point of going in this war anymore? You know why continue and I was with a bunch of other kids were going through the same. They were lost Plato, and at this point again, this is the part that I really want to highlight in in wars and particularly the one we had ensure you before very strategic of who they recruit They already recruiting. People were fed up with society. What a bottom of it were basically have been given the shortage of existence in a society, so the angry they want somebody

sponsible for why their life's gonna go forward. So those people perfect, because the second his people whose lives have been complete, decimated I've lost family community homes. They have nothing to go back to the have nothing to lose. When you reproduce people there were dangerous cause, I don't care what I didn't live or die. So this is the group of people that include announcing that category, where there is no reason to be alive anymore. Swam ass well, do whatever I can well, I'm around. You know to survive and also. Lastly, then that idea of revenge somebody's going to pay for what happened to me and then there's somebody would tell you this is the person that did that

in the midst of art is madness. This trauma you have, you believed him, and then that becomes your reason to fight, and so for me order is it always dealt with under category and there we are willing to do whatever, because we today they ve destroyed our lives, were a measure, does not protect people, and also those responsible can can be held accountable because there was no justice system. Does nothing going also, You have course a you knew that it's either you're going to take revenge or people we're gonna get away with it. It also you didn't. I mean in the book a very clear they told you you can. leave? If you want, but there's nobody is going to protect you. And there's water all around you. Also. You can't take any weapons or food with you, so good luck out there, man or you can fight with Us- will protect each other like brothers and we'll get these bastards who killed your parent and to just go over. Very briefly, you try to find your family. A friend of yours, said: hey your family's in this village, but first help me get some firewood.

you go with him to get firewood and you come back in the whole village is on fire and unique knew at that point that year. Family was likely in there and it sounds like afterwards. There was a couple of soldiers You saw, and they said I will. We killed everyone, nobody got away and they had like human heads in their hand. At that point right it it's just like a scene straight out of of hell. So if you haven't gotten firewood. You might have seen your family again, but also it sounds like you would have been murdered right alongside them read absolutely, but this is also the nature of a just war, or any kind of violent situation sometimes is the most many listing. I saved your life. You know it is your time to daylight and for many years I wish I'd gone there, because they were so unbearable that I wish I was there and then I will just ended. My own existence in early enough to worry about it, and I blame my friend for stopping me to do that, but at the same time probably does was saved my life, because, if I'd been there, I wouldn't have survived and theirs.

Many stories you hear from Vietnam from water will why one word of movements like that soldiers, a line of boys, always What is I really need to go to the bathroom only to peace around the corner and they started there does when everybody gets goddamn yeah. There's this famous german writer Hunter Grass, who wrote an article some time ago, there was a new Yorker about how, he was in the german army and then his unit was spin, thou, so matter just were firing that everybody and doing a bicycle and the com This, however, is everybody gets on these bites. We can't just right across and get a position over there, but he spot. I never thought he might write a bite. Can he thought to himself man? I'm gonna die because my father never took me out by a man as commander settling where you wait here, we'll get onto bites. Edward and ass I will take the pyramids can come. They all got onto back in the organ The only reason why surveys buzzing ought to write a bike. I, how do you in Europe so

Always these moments in war. Would that's gonna happen, you're like a right. You don't like it, but at the same time is the thing that save your life, so sometimes I'm wasting my what, if I don't want to do some of these lapping, maybe his reason behind this was a beer since I believe they about many things, but you know there is a final sure anyway. It is interesting how fate sort of determines those things that there's a couple stories. one of the guests on the show. Recently, his father was a risk. Since fighter and world war too, and for some reason he got stuck on a fence crawling under offence and it took him another thirty seconds or something to get his clothes, away from the barbed wire that had caught his clothing. At that point he was the last one in the truck that was taking them to go on their resistance mission against the Nazis headset, going any goes if I run down the road after that truck everyone's going, see me and it's gonna- attract attention. It's going to endanger everyone, so he stayed behind and went again and looked, and as soon as that truck turned the corner, they ripped

but with machine guns and killed every single person inside, because somebody had either read them out or they were spotted, I guess on their way out escaping from the jewish ghetto and why if it was Warsaw or something along those lines and another for a friend of mine I was in Vietnam. He was not well liked by his Squire door has platoon, they always picked on him and he was in some sort of tank driving column situation- and they said you- ride on the tank. You know screw you Marty, you ve got a walk in the ditch, so they made him walk in this muddy, wet, ditch that had water, a kind of up to his anger. and he said my boots are full of water and everyone was laughing at me and then the tank had hit a mine or something like that blew up killed every single person on the tank in it blew over his head ass. He was in a ditch, and so he s back. hearing, but he's he's the only one who survived out of all those guys. So it's just it's scary to think how close you we are

sometimes even in non war situations did not seem to Morrow. It really is terrifying if you think about it and let it get your head. If you let it gets you out, so I went. I live in New York City of enough that going forward our experiences, I thought to myself it's a miracle everyday Are you you don't get run over by taxicabs care? He won't tell you know that's true, especially in New York. The thoroughly allotted Ivan me. Maybe it's with a day you know look at that moment. Everything yeah man, you could be too in New York, you anywhere for that matter. You can be texting and you fall in an open, frickin, yeah man or something like that to you. Now you see those videos on red it of like a kid puts a firecracker into a little sewer great, unlike the whole block, blows up just insane. So how did they train you guys for battle cause. You aren't going through boot camp you're, not a professional soldier, you're, just son at this point. How old were you at this point like eleven? Yes, I was at this point I started when I was thirteen thirteen, I I was there.

so you're a kid. How do they train you to fight? They don't have time to you threw ten weeks of no physical conditioning. You know what are they doing? here's the thing about war. That is very interesting. Particular civil war is not like professional soldiers, they go to a military bags or whatever the train for you. As you know they march every morning, no, you have been trained in the you're a war so glad you know, you're going to be going there very shortly. Surely right cities that reality that you see already, so you learn on the job, so basically you're giving the basics, which is that these guys who are wearing this thing over their head or wear this type of shirt or not, or if you see one of them, you shoot them your number one. Secondly, these are some basic commands. If we do

You crawl. We do this and go you got to do all this stuff right. They think about civil war. Also, a guerrilla warfare. Anything goes, there's no rules of engagement, so whatever works is what you do. That's why it's so difficult and dangerous! That's why most people don't want to fight it because it's unpredictable, you know you coming to place, thinking that if you're walking in the Bush with your platoon they'll be an ambush somewhere, maybe everybody will be up in the tree waiting for you. You will not know, you know, they're all kinds of techniques that people come up with, and these are things that you just come up where to go along. I should learn to understand, but the most basic party, how to shoot a weapon effectively, and this is not difficult to do. People always think that weapons are that complicated to operate now.

During the war where you're fighting everyday, that you get good. I'd, make sure that you know wasting that many bullets right, but to actually disassemble a weapon in shooting it's not them was coming. The thing in the world people fear, because you don't know what it is way, something that you can do very effectively, and so, particularly if you have weapons like the eager forty seven, those very light weapons that little kids at the age of twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen can handle very well. You have a problem I have a problem. This is probably a dumb question, but how do you even know who the enemy is right? You don't have uniforms. If so, is it just the five guys? The euro? so, the people, you know our, maybe not gonna kill you and everybody else's fair game. Yep does basically it's your guard, while low risk, which is essential in my principal. If this ok during the daytime, you can distinguish right, for example, the squatted I was with you say where we want to fight we'll find some type of green thought they would die. Don't I had so. If you see somebody

a grin bandanas dad. You know the on your site. Right then also, if you come to attack, usually have a formation or some loose You have an idea where people are so during the day you can see what is also have that there the enemy, would then take nighttime. For example, you hear fight in firing, you think you're gonna, ask Kay said my friend over there is our job in the bushes. No you shoot, and then, tomorrow morning you check if it was John or not, you know, if he's in Tibet as basically the nature of it at the time. You know and that's it you know so. Basically this is also why the lot of kids, they love regretting kids, because kids than from Cleats, because children like two from free shipping clicks and the happens even in the battlefield, so they had what, because small boy units to address economies Obi like ten fifteen, twenty twenty five, fifty group of kids.

And get to know each other and they fight for each other to keep a shorter life, but then they do whatever the commander tells them. So they become very dangerous. You know because they know it's already know wagered. Ah they fought for bit so they can ignore. Everybody has his going. You know, and this ring from case from age, nine all the way and by the way, curse to in my book. I write about girls because I decided I wasn't a girl, so I didn't know what it feels like to fight asked. The girl, with the other element of you, know, been sexually. there has been devised for commander and all of those things, so I left a story so that a growth rate of bodies that are quite deliberately decided to write about it, but they were girls, went through the same equipment, the same hardship, in addition to other things that happen to them and they fought so he was children of every age in every gender,

This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Ishmael Baya will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by purple. Mattress many gimmicks promised a great night's sleep, but if you're sleeping on the terrible mattress your sleeps going to be terrible, that's why I recommend sleeping on a purple. Mattress only purple mattresses have that fancy gel flexgrid that adaption flexes around pressure points and doesn't retain heat. Basically, it's a mattress that was screwing you at night, just right, no matter how sleep. We lay pebbles best seller, the purple hybrid three I can say a truly contours, your body. They got a very unique technology, supportive right where you need it also highly recommend,

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recycling kit. Today, by the way you can know rate the show, if you're listening on Spotify relatively new feature. This is a big help. I'm convinced it makes the show more visible on Spotify, just go to Jordan ARM you're not come Slash, Spotify or probably easier search for us in your Spotify, app click. The doubts on the upper right hand, side and make it happen now for the rest of my conversation with Ishmael. Bear tell me about the first time that you saw combat like you are almost mostly voluntarily, but that's not really what I mean tell me about the first time you saw combat, were you were involved in the combat, as opposed to running from the conflict I mean before I was trained to be an active soldier who had already seen

so much wiser? I was already quite traumatize here, but the first is that we went to war. I think it was a most terrifying thing that ever happened to me just on the way there, knowing what we were going to do, but he has not yet happened right thinking having this feeling that I was descending into some kind of darkness into some place that was gonna chip away from what Ben that I'm no longer get back truly peppers. I said that as well go in and then there was an ambush and then we start exchanging fire and people who look like us was shooting at us, and there was a kid that were training. I've looked up to me was next to me and there was an explosion and his body through and basically his whole entire back frame fell on the stump and he was still there was blood all over my face and everything and I just lost it. I realized at that moment that listen, if I don't shoot, I'm going to end up like everybody,

has been killed next week, so I needed to shoot and I started. Shooting shootin took it. When I was writing, I was varies. I want it to be really about that when I wanted to write this book, because I didn't want people to look at war and underestimate the valleys of it I could have written this book. Why came out ass like all these good kid was in a war and refuse to shoot and just said no, and here and there was war, but I wasn't that kid I wish I was I was not at most.

So I would not want me boy whether or not they were not tell you that, because his heart to admit that yeah. But for me I wanted to write, because I wanted people to understand that I was a kid who loved him up. Rendezvous, see. You know refugee learned Shakespeare wanted to be an economist, and then I became a soldier, and I started doing things that I didn't think, however, be able to be in a position to do, but I did them, and I want people to see and understand that is possible, but is also possible to come up the er I end as well, so I really wanted to pay. A picture with that cannot be like. I could read the book. The glorified me yeah, I was his victim. We just went around people run all over me and I was going to do that because I will not be the truth. You mentioned that you didn't really take the prisoners right. You kill every combatants that you come across, there's no like I'll, lock these guys civil

I don't have Abu Ghraib, prison or things like that way. You know you bring that guy put a mere interrogating. You don't have that there is a need for more you when you move, two thousand villages are burnt down completely. So are you gonna? Take anybody you don't have the bodies that are. You also have Russia as you like, I ok, we have this prisoner, you gotta feeding, Russians. There is not even enough for the people why new unit, so are you gonna carry somebody you know. So these are the things we could understand about the nature of when workers to that level there no prisoners are not needed. The only time you get prisoners was stowed away. You recruited people. They can learn how to kill somebody practicing on them, as it decides that there was no prisons needed where you gonna do with them await them to the next presence. There were, you know, The whole praises completely fallen apart in a what about civilians were having yoni civilian onto your no longer one. You know that was visible in each of the civil as well, but also severely

what determining the way that, as a soldier determine who is a civilian when they leave also that also, if you're, civilian, based on way, you can make your enemy of disorder group if you're behind enemy lines, if you're in a village those taken by another group, notwithstanding the fact that you cannot escape they're, not he wanted to have. That explanation is the same as I was saying earlier. Body are you have when they write their markets or new nobody's ever gonna city already forced it on you. As soon as they see you do just shoot you. You are young, you see what I mean. It was much later than wonder. People started trying to do things like that, but in the midst of the way you can make that distinction, you know again I'll bring it on what it is the same. They went

come from fighting in the Middle EAST and they say oh yeah, I saw somebody who had a turban on and they were coming towards me- and I forgot you know- is that you don't have time to say well that could be my friend Abdul order could be mean. Are you don't, as does the nature of war? You make one mistake: Caso many people's lives, so to avoid that sometimes you just did the most violent possible to avoid that mistake. Tackle cos a lot of people new units life, you talk about killing, preserves the bayonet, and then you save like two sentences later I hoped later I would have time to talk about Shakespeare. This is like a crazy juxtaposition. Right did you at the time

you in real time should realise how split in half your personality was ordered that only come out later, that only came or later when they were, you don't have time to process all of that right. There is a way you're. Jumping from one emotion to another is because you don't wanna sit in one is torn comfortable. Here is that you can kill you. You can weaken you from being in that world. You know, so you switch back and forth. But for me what I thought in retrospect, what I thought about this was that most kids, who are in the war and even some of their doors, are commanders. What people want to something to happen to them. Why were we have a unit of people? Wonder Shakespeare? Emissary went to school before right. He said you are not just people who all civilised didn't go to school, but something happened and we'll find out I've seen this moment. It was also a way to normalize a little bit this madness that we win, because where we are by Shakespeare, is on that. I will do all in our secondary school classes. Right talk into professor. We talk,

but they will Bunda little bed everywhere. We play soccer where we play soccer. It was all of that to normalize moments in it. But you know everywhere. We watch rumble themes word. If you know what I was violent the rumble visa. We watched him to kind of make what we were doing light fast. You know What's wrong with you relax or avoided, we notice bizarre into what I actually notice that rumble symbols I woke up, you pull out is there's no. We want, I can run around like fifty minutes. Shooting one magazine, you know, as I went, I disguised they don't know what you're talking about by all of the commander slackened, his inner, reasonable media, You have never been in a war. There's this guy just run There are various issues in that one way of ensuring the magazine. Yet you have to change the way you can guess he changes too late, but anyway, but imagine invest In that event, watching that there were business dialogue is going over it's crazy to meet them.

Shorty of your training was watching Rambo movies and then actual real life practice that so in say, of course, it's just unbelievable because I support Ghana right you want to make it like is almost like a child's play for. That was why I say what I see that element of play even knows more deadly, so people will record you run a very clever. That's what we would.

EL. I do think about is what I think that this crazy market we asked there, but it also very clever their workers matic. He knew exactly what, where two two new watches psychological breakdowns are. What you need to hear that moment what you need to be more angry because of what you have lost when they come deprive you're, so that it can give you something they can t be open to them. They noticed things. This is what happens in any other military as well is just not as naked as that. You know it s your life. You have accompany. You want your, U employees do you know you have to have a set of leadership when you walk in there. Everybody says that get doing their job Europe, but this is my ps3

mother gonna love. We know these things. I just bought a vow. These guys are very smart. Have you don't realize that you wrote that there was so much blood everywhere on the ground in the rivers and Crete and strange that there is even blood in the tap water and you had to run the water until it looked like why and then you could wash up- and I assume you meant that literally like our: u brushing your teeth and washing your face and cooking with water. That's literally running with in blood. No, no! No! No. What I was saying is that you know at some point in certain rivers because of how their son passive the can frontier land, where there's a lot of rivers and you have to cross them to get to the other side, and sometimes people gunned down in front of it. And if you arrived there right after it happened is a lot of blood on the surface of the water. So if you want it till I get to the water, I said you have to move the bloody logos and get to the water to wash right. Now, when I came out of the war when I was a rehabilitation centres, because I was in religion for the first time,

no longer war, and I was not moving constantly. So when I go to open the tap to take a shower literally feel, like I've seen blood coming out of the tap. This is more than trauma. That was happening or piteously. He carried it and that I was going through with pity, as they had been. That word had been pointed so you're, just like some Fraser Guy was seen things coming out of the water you know who this heading yeah, you know is most late I've. What is always bitter zeal up? Ok, here's what we're dinner It makes more sense because I was envisioning like a false it with blood running out of it now thought that almost just doesn't make any sense y know. I don't know that is a little bit of a relief, because I would just imagining you have any use that water and it was just like one horror on top of another. Ok, so you get selected by the added nations to go and speak about this and you go. You travel from cereals go to New York City now. Were you all familiar with New York, or is it just like you? I saw the sun MTV once era. You know

rob videos and that's it not as it may. I see it on your empty of Europe and saw the videos that I've seen were. Basically, Iraq is driving fast and shoot out here. Actually wasn't looking for two went to New York, that doesn't mean it. I just came out of war. I don't go anywhere where this is going to be somebody. I have to do again right, yeah

gotta queens early on our way to do it I was I was. I don't wanna go where you have to like run again and fight, but was very interesting because I come out of this. Why didn't think I'll survive and then all of a sudden not showed the way? I was selected is actually very interesting story because I was asked, along with several other young people, to go to a building down by the government work in IRAN in the capital city, in Freetown, to interview to be selected to go to New York for this conference. That was about the impact of armed conflict and children that the wife of Nelson Mandela, then Address Michel had done a study. Anyone come too soon interview some of us, and this was the presentation of the study and testimonies. What did you do to find people to go? So I was asked to go by. My counsel was consequently at that time that goal.

I think you'll be a good fit because I was very young. I was very quiet. I never said much about what happened to me to anybody, but he thought this. Whenever I spoke to say, whenever you speak, you say something in the way that I think you could benefit. I should go so when I went for the interview there were other people do actually sons and daughters of the DEN ministers who I'm part one on x. Because at the time the war had reached the capital city. So they were been interview to come to talk about things they did not know about, which is some of the reasons that led to the war that kind of giving up due to people. So I was some offset that I threw some benches and left. I never So we went to the interview I told them off. I said this is the reason why that was. Why are you guys doing the same thing that will there's another way. Do you know what I did I left and then I was selected as one or two people to go through personal rhino. Harsher went through the but I guess a sort of anger about ever lower than that. I go over there, causing producers of yeah yeah he's sick,

really authentically voice. That's what they probably got a really voice. Let them join those crazy. You know, look I'll just go motto about you know, and it was a First time in my life I had a passport. When war comes your life, you lose everything, so I didn't have any, people I knew when I was one because I've gone to school, so they took me in the government measure. I got a passport to you when, I remember going to the american Embassy to interview for Visa and the guy ask me so. The only way we can give you a visa, if you can give us two documents to show that you intend to return to Sierra Leone after you Go to New York to this conference, and I say what I don't documents. He said one a bank statement that shows you have some money in the bank to a document. I should honour ship of property. and I just started laughing at the american embassy, and everybody was looking why you love it and also disguising other touch reality. You know obviously there is a war going on in this country.

the time, I'm only like sixteen years old, I come from a war that I told him. Let's assume I had a bank statement. You think that when there was a wonder was gunshot our voters that you know. Let me bring my bank statement before I leave. You know better Let me get my doctors. Are. You know thy cereals, valuable, the you're running out of your burning house near like I need my oh, my god, my monthly generals Bank details, you know like relatives. I really am. the reason why I got the visitors because I d you went back and because the guy was color frozen. Looking at me like this kid and I'm blameless Mendez, no proof. I can take the fact that I dont know where I'm going. I've never even thought I'll go to New York. I've never even get in my life, so I mean I have no intent on stained down to you brought it up now, I'm thinking about it. You know a beatin us like, oh you mean, for I never thought but the idea that I could just never get in the way. I do know that just combat renault- and I thought I was funny, but people will work for a government that they go

immigration, they have no sense of humour whatsoever. Yeah are there. None I just like. Man, it's cool, I'm gonna, be a wrapper. I got a plan, every day I got about land, a record company waiting for me, nobody so finally got that visas, it everything. Then they got off the suitcases, Bigs Raleigh suitcases. I just come from this one. At a time I only had four pairs of clothing. You know too long, pants and shirts that went with it and two short pants, so I could have for many war. Everything is out on to play with all of them and I was still look like nothing was going on rash, so they got all these big suitcase and I were going to the airport is empty. Suitcase it those few things I didn't I just haven't objectively and then Can I make a like ok, wisely checking and almost empty bag heroes. You're gonna get some things for them? Bring them? You know we got on display. Yeah with a chaperone who is coming with us, I don't know why he was our chaperone, because it was also the first time going on a plane or some other way,

don't run in who why we go he's gonna getting, doesn't know anything I got so we got on display myself in another. Kid was also form a soldier. It was a kill him flight from Freetown, then to Amsterdam, to shipowner, pointing out that I never dare to Jeff Kate, who sit on display in the place ass the take off and is called on the plane. Like I'm saying this is the first time in my life tat I felt so much my teeth chattering and it was because the issue was only know the thing on the top either a c. I didn't know the time that these things you could turn it all. You could regulate, so I'm lyrism getting it to myself. I got a jump off displayed, here. I was seeing it as I gotta jumper before we actually leave the airspace of similar, because I knew if I broke my leg I'll be guaranteed one, whether so, I'm going to jump off and I started thinking, I wish whether versa less witnesses and then a further ten then gave us a blanket you realize was going on. The whole thing is ever going to store, not a plan. I never imagined

We came to New York. I wasn't a winter, my god and nobody told us having a wake up. Call man, that's what I was: U York in a way tat. Also chaperone didn't know where we're going so none of us out any jackets. So we got out the plane I Jeff Gay and was standing by the door in their this white things falling out of the sky and I'll take it away. They will have a strange I've, never seen that before and my friends. I know you proceed this Christmas pin. It must be Christmas because this Christmas in does seem before things like that fall out of the sky levies, Griesbach armies of Christmas, coming from anywhere we step outside. He was so good. I firmly This is going to fall off. I say I want to go back so contrary to what people say it I went immigrants, but they want to stay. I wanted to go back. I was I avoid this is in you. May nobody can live. In is environments. I would go out the candy. You know I fought in the war. I survived I'm going to die here in this cold, where I can barely walk. As they know, women had said. I was this,

man. This is quite the story and there's more in the book is well about you, Europe. Sierra Leone, had to essentially escape again I mean it over some of it in a show clothes, but it's just absolutely insane the idea of having to escape your home country. Again after this civil war really was it really is just such a hair Intel, and I don't want to keep it too much. Hunger, but look you since return to Sierra Leone right it's a safer this now? This is that where you are now, yes, I'm actually speaking to you from freak out, which is the capital city right now my family. I have three kids now so having clear you consider spinner, I went through it. I survive oh yeah, you better internet than I do now. You ve got Were you kids of your own? Is there a part of,

that's it all worried that something like this could happen again to them as well. No, I think, because I've lived in it and I can see where such things are going to happen. I try to raise them in environments that they will not have to go through that because you know for me I think, as their father. I think that one person in their family life that I've Ex President us enough- I don't think they need to you, know Now- to go and live in places where there are no sir, the things that they are used to. For example, before we move there will live in emolument, so these are my gets Malibu yeah why, more from Molly with a free die. Don't you see that travel baron very off? Now, because Russia, the only people but that take it, but what I'm trying to say is that I try to raise my kids, because you'd have done something myself in privilege. Goma,

there was a aware that their privilege having them aware that it's not like that for the residue having him appreciate the privileges they have alighting everybody's children's. You have privileges, they should be raised. Well, they should be able to drive well, but just as the awareness that not everybody has up and how do you, what do you do with them? So we try to raise them and travel with them in space. Is that he can see and understand those things you know, and my elders, seven she's almost eight in February and she's beginning to ask me questions about things you know like I remember, which was, for example, five years old. She was in school and they are doing a great pleasure. Choose Athena, the goddess of why she asked me. So what is the goddess of war, like you, should talk to us, I dont say or model, as you explained, through yeah, I've forgotten all ready for this one. You know now asked me this question in ten years, but I did

and I'm slowly trying to explain to them what these things are, so that he doesn't become that grand conversation we need to have one day. This is a sore by your fat. I dont wonder because it part of why I am whether you like it or not. So I want to explain to them slowly, slowly and most importantly, what have observed from people that I've been around from what I know you know I was adopted in a jewish family, New York and their that jewish family came from their own suffering from the hollow

as in all of that year, and through that experience, I really learn from them and saw how, if you're, not careful how you can transfer from it to the next generation of your springs or people in your family, just by the mere fact of wanting to prevent that from happening to them. So much sometimes you can give it to them without even thinking so then you begin to ship how they see the world, because you ve seen the word that we see don't give us businesses the word a new. So I've been very careful about that. I want my tribute to make no mistake not fatal once, but I dont want to give them a height of the world because of what I experience you understand. So for me as a father, this is what is very crucial to me so, which is why move back to him, because I wanted to express your now not a shrill unites periods so that when they talk about you're like a black eyes up is that I went to the beach. I went to ban an island. You know I wanted

knowing- and I did this I went swimming- I went fishing. I did that. So is their story. You know you understand so yeah. I do man really. Thank you so much. I love to convince visit you over their Sunday because I'd love to see Sierra Leone and media you're just an incredible person. Your story is incredible and I just want to thank you so much for the show and being so open. You know, you really didn't hold anything back, and I appreciate that, and so does everyone listening. Thank you so much for questions, and I want to hold you to that. You have the common due to the shore from free town, Sierra Leone yeah right on Africa, and we got the students regulars. Do it right I would love to you and thank you to everyone who helped over there as well. You know I really. I know this is quite the set up. So thank you very much dude. We went to the right to the end of the time, and I really really enjoyed this so really. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you spend a pleasure your about you

a preview of the Jordan Harbinger fell with pickpocket, King Bob, Arnaud pickpockets, don't talk, they live and do everything silence. I have spent twenty thirty years befriending or getting very, very close into hard day. Work is done him a very troubled by the way, and that goes for the territory of very good smile and, like a ping pong very quickly, popopo baboon, back and forth. There's nothing slow, the thieves picks it, but pickpocket never hold so. He passes it on to a partnership. The police catch him. Two seconds after his clique there's nothing on him. There was none of this. You sure picked pocketing the elegance was unbelievable. I have to look at it at least ten times before I could see what that hands. Did I see

to learn, pickpocket tricks of the trade and how to protect yourself against thieves. Pickpockets, an scam artists check out episode. Five thirty of the Jordan Harbinger Show man I could go on for a while with this guy at the kids were just love with no choice but to turn into the very thing but they were running from, and that's really what this is all about, They were turned into killing machines watching Rambo every night and dust strong on drugs. There's stories in the work of guys, kids wearing, here, five watches on one risk, because they'll kill people and then take their valuables and they'll be wearing five, six, seven watches and it just kind of like a disgusting trophy of war. But these are remember. These are children so later but after Ishmael loses his parents within a few weeks or months. He goes on to describe going on these raids and looking for food looking for weapons. He talked about that during the show, but, of course, he's also killing civilians. In now these are someone else's parents. Rights

Oh he's just as bad in a way as the people who killed his parents and it's just an leave of cruel irony later on, of course, the United Nations. What we do something right. The United Nations try to do something. Unicef goes in grabs a bunch of these kids and put them in school, but of course they just mix kids from all over the place so there different sides, indifferent militias and government, allied kids in rebel, allied, kids and fight to break out in their killing each other. In this you in school stabbing each other in the cafeteria, I was just absolutely a total mess with no easy solution and, after the show again, like I said I could have gone on for hours but after he leave Sierra Leone to go talk to the? U n he later returns and when he would turns to Sierra Leone. There's a bloody bloody coup, The rebel movement finally makes its way into the capital cities. the main cities and their robbing bank vaults in their bribing people and their blowing open buildings with our policies and blowing open anything with money with rocket propelled, grenades their setting prisoners and

isn't free there arming these prisoners, so the prisoners, and are going around killing people they're going killing the police, their killing. The judges and the families of the judges that put them in prison show its chaos in the streets. With a literal death squads exit Getting entire families, along with children for quota quote crimes like listening to pirate radio stations with actual world news, as opposed to the government I began to station, which became the only thing you are allowed to listen to during this crazy insurgency. They were dead, being bodies in the gutter. I mean it truly sounds like hell like actual hell on earth, so age will obviously made it right. He escaped again. This part of the story is bonkers. I really should adjust made him stay late and kept him from his family dinner and made him tell the rest of the story is under Will he decides yes to escape again his living with an uncle radios? No parents, they uncle caretaker, passes away. There's no one left, there he's looking out the window and

in this chaos and issues waiting to get murdered at this point, so he sneaks out and has to avoid these checkpoints by crawling through gutters with rats, dead up bodies in them he goes to an old bus station. These gets into a blacked out, but with everything painted black, even the robbing the who's trying spray painted black. Driving through what sounds like jungle back roads to escape in Sierra Leone, to imagine having too imagine having to pay to escape your home country roads, it's illegal. Of course, at this point to leave the city because the rebels, one it was centrally, keep people trapped there so that the entire country does just fall apart, end up entirely deserted. They get stopped at the border by officials and these effects to us here today. Links to all things Ishmael will be on the website. Of course, he's got some great books. I encourage you to read. Please use our website links if you do by the books from the guests on the show

home country, which is now ravaged by a civil war. It just sounds like the country itself had essentially become a prison. We're staying in it is a death sentence itself, unbelievable just incredibly harrowing. Thank you so much to Ishmael for being so open about something so horrible and bringing his story to us here today, to all things, Ishmael will be on the website. Of course, he's got some great books. I encourage you to read: please use our website links if you do by the books from the guests on the show it help support the show transcripts are in the show, notes and theirs. video of this interview going up on our Youtube Channel Jordan hard You're dot com, Slash Youtube, I'm at Jordan, Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram You can also hit me on linked dental of connecting with you, wherever you find me, I'm teaching you how to connect with me I people like Ishmael and manage relationships using systems, software, tiny habits, the same ones that I

every single day. That's our six minutes networking course. The courses free over it, Jordan, harbinger dot, com, slash course. I'm teaching! You had a dig that well before you get thirsty and build relationships before you need to rely on them and, like I said most of the guests on the show, subscribe and contribute to the Corso, be learning from amazing folks, you'll be in smart company, where you belong, the shows created in association with asked one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jays Sanderson, Robert Fogey, Milieu Campo in bared, Josh, Ballard and Gabriel. Ms Raw, you remember, we write, by lifting others. The fee for this. Is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, and if you know someone who loves incredible stories, I think this is it I want to share with them. Hopefully you find something great in every episode, the greatest common you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply

you here on the show, so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. If you're, a fan of true crime check out court junkie, court junkie is a true crime. Podcast hosted by Gillian Jolly, they cover court cases and criminal trials. Learn about a nurse. The Texas Hospital who was charged with murdering his patients. We didn't episode about that on this show as well. If you recall, prosecutors claim he's a serial killer, but he of course says he's innocent here from a local reporter. Who gives his perspective on the case? And what, to thirteen year old, Dylan, red wine, Dylan's father mark when on trial last year for his murder. Here all the important testimony from both the prosecution and the D. Host Julian Jalopy uses audio clips and interviews to focus on the facts of one true crime case per episode. In the end you the listener, get to decide. Did the criminal justice system actually work and get it right subscribe to court junkie on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts