The show was severely wounded in my case, underwear was the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by an x hunt. Creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt app from the itunes or google play store, know where you stand with annex what we're sitting here to keep this in a bag Meanwhile, listen to this episode we're scuffing. Why? why a woman is topless, but a man. And is shortlist. And why you never say a topless man or a shirtless woman. Ben share your theory, research,

heartless woman. She could still be wearing a bra. That's good is killing me joined by Ben wallace, who does heard from there and bends. Finally, the writer Ben walls he's finally written something worthy of us. Hundreds of articles that just are not worthy of us it. Finally, done it hundred. Is it that way? When you set out you wanted, and on the show I mean it, took me a lot a year, but I got career hip to lay off people can what year You know you're gonna like like her out

when people say what do you write about as hard cause? You're, a generalist, long form magazine, examine mostly a magazine writer general interest right about everything from you know: neo nazis to the media, business to treasure. Hunts wrote a book about wine. Yet yeah tell me about that record. I find myself telling people about that book olds. Alright, so I wrote a book about the most expensive bottle of wine ever sold, which was a supposedly a seventeen eighty, seven bordeaux, red bordeaux that had belonged to thomas jefferson and was discovered in a bricked up cellar in paris.

in the mid eighties and then sold for this record price to the forbes family. As in Malcolm forbes. He started forbes magazine and and but then the sort of questions began. Was it really Thomas jefferson's? Was it really hidden in the cellar for two hundred years and was the guy who found it? It was this german collector named hardy rodenstock on the up and up, or was he a con man? And so the book follows that mystery and just cut to it. I don't give away the only people to buy it to find out that one of the things I learned in that book that was most interesting to me was that I mean Besides the story about the. Why was the thing I didn't realize? The the the book has a lot to do with like that, there's a part of the book where Ben He's your explain kind of how wine became a man stream like wall street the ec swing in china thing right now and again,

the view that this thing, where people have wine too, sittings. I've never heard of that you have wine tastings. You can have a horizontal or a vertical tasting. That's right so now tell me like what that is, so it has on tasting would be one year, one vintage, let's say a two thousand and twenty vintage, but it would be a bunch of different lines like maybe it's like ten or twenty years. In more wines off from that year, and your comparing so they say of the same sort of weather can do in same growing conditions, but your comparing the wines against each other, a vertical tasting you're, taking a single wine from a single producer and you're looking at it over different years, and it could be like a hunter years are samples from one hundred years of a single wine, and then you can see some of how that makes a difference in how tastes, and I don't want to give away the end of Ben's book but I'll point out that,

one fight wall street finance people got into the nodded happen like definitively overnight, but as it became fashionable to host wine, tastings and people were filling out their vertical or horizontal. There's always be these really hard to find bottles like theirs like the the bottlenecks in the press. ass of assembling bottles. And there emerges a gentleman who is, always seems to bind one read but there's some guy once it is extremely rare. Nineteen. Forty seven, you know shovel blank, which was when it one of the famous ones and in the sky hearty run stock miraculously just bought a private seller that had a dozen nineteen, forty seven shovel blocks and over time, so many bottles of shovel

what came on the auction market that there were more bottles of it for sale than had ever been produced doing that led into iran, somebody our things devise, been dino, crank, cranking out so much work, but doing that Let into do our stint for you gave you like Temporary stick as the person and like a person who goes and examines what's the most expensive blank, one can get it's true yeah. I did two articles for GQ magazine about, I think, was called like the one percent of the one percent just trying out super expensive or rare things. Like a do. You know the bugatti veyron sports car or the most expensive bed. The hoskins was the sweetest bad call the hoskins vividness bed and where I have been

I had to sleep in the show, roman, for, like insurance reasons that the company made us higher security guard justice. While about in their sleeping in the bed with, like you know, glaring new york city lights, shining in through the plate, glass windows, and then it is the most expensive toilet. I did. There was japanese toto toilet delightful, its spirit. The most expensive airplane, northern heads of airplane ride most expensive airplane ride. going to dubai, where you have a you actually have a cabin instead of a seat and can take an inflight shower and you get a smoothie afterwards I mean, even though the smoothie gives you know, maybe like five dollars add on value it just kind of caps it for me yeah, and then he did the most expensive fishing trip. You can go on the most expensive fishing trip, which I think he went on a similar trip, if not one down in patagonia. Exactly I was, on the exact same to reply, fishing available

not with you but as a similar trip, and if you get me a few pointers for the flatfish arrived before I went. My wife was wanna being attracted to those guide dude because they were flight seats. I do not know that, as I was we wheels, are we weren't even married at an early date? I took on early date, which gave her the wrong, the about what our scene was gonna be an end. She won't obtain quite shined all these Young whipper, snapper, run out and helicopter pilot suits, which has reared astro wound, was when you have a reservation like a hotel or a restaurant, or something or people ever expecting detroit pistons defensive player the year Ben wallace know that every now and then every now and then I do get a little bit of a look like you're, not what I was expecting very different. He says you have all your all your teeth and earlier lined up building that is dentistry register

If we did that, I shall be As much more hair than I do- and you know he looks like a professional athlete- berlinger yeah he's about a foot taller than this Ben wallace and darker skin, bigger hair and much different positive. The prisons are basketball team, not a hockey to the you o all one other thing: heart dallas, hermetically buggy. Would you please you run out and is very, very on brand? Why that take hockey? What. The position is that made it felt dominica hockey position globally. He was a power forward, use diva you then. I really must be hockey reed but the thing that been all that stuff was not worthy,

all that all that work was now worthy. But what is worthy is Ben is just finished. A large piece of reporting on the forest fen treasure. You probably have attained now I would say, like a high level of subject matter, expertise on the forest van treasure surpassing surpassing. that of our own spencer, you are through as well. a mild interests. Yes tell Would you got, we could give been a break and spencer could explain what he feels. The phantom There is a risk. Just go right about duggar right to ban, explained the fence treasure defend trevor, we gotta understand forest them far eyes. What do I got this? planned out.

Type with I've. Forest is now you could do a briefly, but I want to get into the guy guy, but first. That is why we will be like all that eating defend trevor is eight chest of trade tour, including a lot of gold coins, gold nuggets, gems, some ancient jewelry, and that was hidden in the rockies in two thousand and ten and and that by an eccentric guy, in santa FE, a wealthy art, architect, art art, dealer and that set in motion a treasure hunt that has had you know, possibly several hundred thousand people searching for it for the last decade, a million box about about a million. But then a million, but the Not counting its collective value as now a cultural artifact,

Would you make it exponentially greater exactly four people have died. Looking for five at least five of died, trying to find the treasure k. What that is. that was an hour job in explain real, quick, how I became aware of forest spent, and I feel that I was. Telling I've been friends have been for a long long time like inaccessible decade having thirteen years. And I feel I was probably from the start, Early on I mentioned the dude forrest fenn to you. I knew this this this art, well, an art, collector fighter pilot who's, a vietnam pilot cracked flew three three hundred and twenty eight combat missions,

a centric antiquities dealer. Just man about town in santa FE. I heard about them a long time ago when I was when I first got interested in clovis points, so ice age, projectile points spirit like spear points from the ice age and when I got interested in clovis points you couldn't, read much about clovis points. Without reading about a collect of clovis points that had been dubbed the fan cash and anthropology, I knew a number of anthropologists who were like legit, academic, anthropologists Number of anthropologists, who were kullak pot hunters, mean there. There are hobbyists who like to hunt arrowheads and they would often sit and argue about and speculate on the legitimacy of the fence

and it was this some hand, half a dozen earn. Some handful of clovis points The one guy came to know bout, tony baker who passed away were explained that he knew for a fat. I can say I think I can say this is he's dead. He told me that now but he's dead. He told me, you know for a fact that some of the clovis points in the band cash were phones. Then I became aware of the fenn treasure because I had heard- and I was not- this is not correct. I had heard that Some of these clovis points had made their way into the fence treasure. and lastly, I learned that you're, not the only one I started reporting on this. There was one of the first questions I asked because you'd mentioned to me and I learned that he had sold the fan cash before he had the treasure

So what you give us a run down of I mean I just touch on low, but but give a run down of like this guy's background and why he would have emerged as a person to like set off a treasure hunt like what is what what motivated him anyways. I mean he. He grew up in texas. His dad was a schoolteacher and growing up. I think really young. He started collecting arrowheads and that ignited a lifelong obsession with collecting things and with you know in particular native american antiquities and and when he became a pilot. He joined the air force and then was in vietnam. He flew all these missions

shot down and rescued twice, but even as a pilot, he would you know, uses flights to kind of survey, the landscape and occasionally like put down- and you know, scour ruins for collectibles, and he was just a real kind of obsessive collector and after he got out of the air force, he moved to Santa FE from texas and I became an art dealer, and so then he had a kind of professional way to pursue his passion of collecting and owning things, and his house in Santa FE was full of, and you know things like sitting bull's, peace, pipe and all kinds of you know,

have fabled relics and- and he was just a lifeline collector and then eventually in in the mid two ladys, he sold his art gallery after being a big part of the santa fe our boom boom and he bought a huge indian pueblo. The samples are public, basically as his personal archaeological hunting ground, and then he said the next ten years, they're kind of excavating. It himself courting no shortage of controversy, whereas rasa, according no shortage of controversy. There were accusations that he had found him. Bones. There were you know as mediations with tribes over. You know certain things he found in the pueblo and what? How should he buy that thing? For I dunno I don't get. That number has been published. Okay, but it was I mean, I think, was over one thousand acres. It was. It was a huge

like bought an old pueblo assailing, an old village site, yet to dig it up you mentioned the santa fe our boom, as if it was like an event. What? What was that? it was so I guess, in the seventies and early eighties, Santa FE became a popular place for our collectors to go to buy cowboy, ard, indian artifacts through new western heart and send was at the centre of that. I think a lot of kind of hollywood liberties got into the south western looked so michael douglas suzanne summers wrath, lorraine people like that became enamelled as this is almost company, legal beagle do those are very suggestive. Television show. I remember one apple,

we're someone's overhearing to people in the bathroom. Trying to make a shower curtain fit. and if not long enough and some on overhearing the conversation coming to a conclusion about something else, going on very suggested for an episode. Now, I've often brought up that. I think shakespeare stole most of his materials through Because that's where he developed his love for, like the misheard conversation, you know, but the premise for a novel. I guess shakespeare, traveled, traveled back time from three company to start writing is com is like this is where a blow up in the air ibiza neurosci is like they're. Good people are gonna love this. When I get back to where it came from this idea that you hear conversation miss only here part of it. You didn't want to come to a wild conclusion. It solves textbooks

Come on down not should I should have good and more shakespeare adaptation. So, yes, I'm catching agar reaches u k so walk there is best you can to how this you know, art dealer. well, bit of a fatalist, I mean he himself can tour a wreck unsure I mean he himself said you know. Eighty five percent of what I say is true. You know, and he said he said that he said it's not what you are it's, what people think you are. So there was a little bit of the the kind of roguish storyteller To him always keep quickly. Tell a story. You talk about in your article lilies early draft drafts, ruby article where He has a thing on display in his galleria, but

we're someone that works for him knows more than he knows about. What's on display or not so he hadn't in turn this is- and I think the early eighties relate seventies and he had an inter and linda durham, who would later go on to found like a pretty major santa fe art gallery, when she was a playboy bunny. She had been a playboy bunny, which I think in those days meant. You would like actually worked at like a playboy club, us as a new york city, and she was really interested in egyptology, go figure and a customer of hers at the playboy club and made a gift to her of a small like something small and mummified and anne, she added x rated by a doctor friend amusing, like a medical x, ray device, and it was a baby crocodile. Mummified, but for real mollified by ngos, real egyptian mummified baby crocodile as gazprom in the end

like a neo crocodile. I mean I don't know if by means of which river came from, but they will my guess that that's might mike That's that many wrap it up. a little halloween costume and mummified? It yup guys. So At a certain point. I think she needed money. She sold it privately to a private, collector and eventually, by bizarre coincidence, it ends up in fence, sounds like he buys it and he was always buying just like interesting objects. So he buys this for the gallery and he displays it and in a case and says you know, dia session from the british music

young. You know, and it was sort of implied that it was a human mummy and what's dear session me, that means, like sometimes museums, have too much stuff and they maybe need money, so they sell the stuff. But does that give? Is that meant to give it a path of legitimacy? Yes, it gives it yeah. It gives it sort of this. You know We're ver of of validation and respectability. Is that only in museum lingo or is there another case where you would say, and private private collectors who have served collections, dia session things. I learned this working on the wine, but because the forbes family collected all kinds of stuff and they would be a session things from their collection, yeah Not all people do that they call it sell insult me. I guess there's ways it always did idea fashioning my lawnmower gay so continue both crocodile it so Linda, durham,

young in turn in funds. Gallery sees this thing: It used to belong to her and went to to forest. Then and said you know: that's not the session by the british museum. Like that's a little baby crocodile. I got from some guy who came to the playboy club and there she said. Fen was not happy to have this story. He was telling about this object, corrected gotcha. It is important to bring up the its impact and sir bring up. And our common credibility, accurate com at ability problems it's important to bring up though the showmanship of fan or what's the word, you reduce, show winship credibility gap. I dunno, I think he is. He was a you know he was promoters, a salesman is not unique in the art business. That way, I think, there's a fair amount of that among art dealers. You gonna hype things

At the end, he was, as you said, he was a storyteller, so you it might be good word for him a bit of a rascal. These rascally. I think he liked to just generate like ideas and in Create a rock ass, he was, he was a rascal and actually talk to this curator at the american museum of natural history, David hers, thomas, who knew in liked fan. and unlike a lot of archaeologists who thought he was a part owner and thomas said, forrest was a rascal. You know he reminded me of the what you see in the the native american whirl literature, allow yet left us. Does I always got my head? Is you used the word I'll? Take my boy Fred. He used to call bill Clinton, the rascal president that words I stuck in my head, but he was like a tempting. To build. This image is, though, like gum, the dose lackeys commercials most interesting man a world like it. It has big that energy to totally yeah tabriz get bike

three hundred combat avenues like a foundation there right up. Clearly- and in fact we know when I went into this- I first thought: oh, am I gonna have to do all this kind of verification like get his military records, because that's the sounds like a tall story, but it actually is is all true, They were somewhere along the way. I think where he had crashed a jet and then somebody went into where he said he crash in they found it unlike verified the horse worry about. You know that crash that he'd over dinner, I didn't notice. I met those guys. I have a giant thing ass, a long story, my photos, reuters interests, A box of one thousand meet bags plastic bags of books, used to send me home in because years ago the production company We work with, was doing to show with pat of freedom.

the guys I work with the camera guys. I work with had been workin on that and came over my house. These bags lamb meat. What not and I was admiring the bags pass along to the le frida's that was an admirer of the bags. They sent me a thousand of them. I still have them use them time. So when I put the name popped up, the peddler Frida's brother, the famous butcher, went to view now to find a chunk of airplane is planning to be ended up. He hired local. He hired some australians experts in vietnam to do the, the ground work for him. He so they actually found, but he was in life promoting them. I don't want it. He's an engineer he became electrical engineer. He became an, I think, really interested in the puzzle of seeing of sort of the historical research and- and you know, could he'd crack this puzzle. Could he treasure honour also. She was offend treasury, offend treasure guy. If european engine spin off exactly so legally,

then treasure guy job. One is basically making a study of forest fan because you're trying to understand places that might have in specially him or he might have had the treasure. So crystal frida happy to go down the rabbit hole of fence. Vietnam experience and thought would be an interesting challenge to try to find the wreckage. If it still was it, you sell it back to friend. He oh gave him. He gave him a couple of the pieces, they got no shit And he was using a drone euro sunning drones over the jungle, and then they sent people and on the ground after they had some evidence and they talk to vote errors or, like others, wreckage over on that slope. Over there no kidding you saw get us into how get us in the war he's thinking when he decides to whatever point a decade ago, build up a little treasure box and hide it. While the story, the treasure begins. Thirty, Two years ago, nineteen eighty eight forest then was diagnosed with kidney cancer and told was terminal.

his father had died of pancreatic cancer and his father when he was diagnosed with cancer, had swallowed binning. Fifty plus sleeping pills, despair as family. The agony of you have drawn out death now, so in forest is diagnosed with terminal cancer. Nineteen, eighty eight he decides he's gonna, do the same thing, but with a twist that he's gonna go. To a remote place that he had already decided upon as the place where he wanted to die somewhere in the rockies and he was going to die there, but he was going to bring a chest of treasure that he was gonna create with him, and people could search for his body and when they got there they could take the treasure, so you can create a treasure hunt. There would accompany his his burial site and you can create a poem with a puzzle in it. As the mystery lazarus I'd know, as the suicide note was gonna, be this. This kind of you know encrypted treasure map the people have to try to crack that's great.

But then that's where that's where, if you're too centric, that's how you put your money where your mouth is, and you know what I mean Like when the rubber meets the road- and you keep at it like that- that's like that's my That'S- that's great east centricity right there, but he doesn't die. Then he doesn't die improbably. He did not die, he recovered fully from cancer and and but he kept sort of toying around with this idea of hiding a treasure chest He would talk about it yeah he talked about it to friends. In fact, you know when friends came to his house, he had a walk in vault in his house where he kept some of his more valuable collectibles, and when friends came over he'd like bring him into the vault where he also had the bottle of pills that he was he had planned to take with him.

and he would show them this. This work in progress, which was as bronze ten by ten treasure chest that he was filling with valuables of that's how big it was ten by ten inches but two pounds, forty jabez out then ass. You know they rely only on. I really think it over. I didn't know I was thinking of a bigger member, has asked a lot of questions last night about the actual, like stashing of it. Ten by ten hours picture was like, like a pirate movie totally like us in the trunk size, yeah, oh ten, by ten yeah, okay gone yep, and now I'm looking at a spencer's pull a picture of it, so he can you know playing around with what was gonna be in the chest and it would take me to put a fan, take it out and his men, The goal was to create a treasure, like when the finder opened the lid they're just be dazzled? By, like I wasn't gonna, be.

A box with some valuable stuff in it. It was can actually look like that treasure chest out of, like you know, apart laurie. Bugs pirating movie is exactly that is too small, a box, a small fire out of found it not have been like. I was expecting something much larger out of walked away in disgust, so one of the questions was will, if he hides this treasure how's, he going to know if it ever gets found. If it's off in some really remote place, and so one of the the things he was trying to figure out was how can I what can What can I leave in the box? That will, let me know it's been found, and I think at that time I just kind of early for gps, and he wasn't that nikolay minded a guy, so I don't think there was ever a quote and also the idea was that this might be there for a thousand years. So I don't think he was ever seriously considering it technological solution, but one of the things he considered was putting something like a bank doc

bank letter or a bare bond worth enough money that the finder would have to go to the bank to cash out so a hundred thousand dollar era bond they're, not gonna, to just sit on that and when they went to the bank he would be notified. He then, though, I thought well what if the bank doesn't exist anymore, so apparently he took that out of the chest and he came up with some other item kicked around is imagine. He'd kicked around putting some thousand dollar bills in it, which I didn't know existed. Did he actually put in some thousand dollar bills, which you know, as was recently discovered on the internet. Grove features the face of grover cleveland, and and then he took them out. He thought they would wrought overtime so of no avail,

Dollar bills to know thousand dollar bills know clovis points, know clovis points, but like a lot of like big gold nuggets, eagle, gold, eagle coins, double eagles and other kind of more esoteric jewelry and some projectile points or no, I dunno nutter. I thought you mentioned that there some projectile points in there. I think someone. I talked to said that. If there were, but I dunno for sure yeah- maybe put them in and took them out, because it looks like he's like staging the perfect scenery yeah. He might have thought the point before, like impressive enough visually yeah, so he stash. Is it. So he stashes that well so in in the summer of two thousand ten, he hides it. doesn't tell anybody where and he self publishes

a memoir called the thrill of the chase. With this twenty four line. Six stands a poem that contained what you needed to what you would need to figure out where the chest was hidden spencer can you read for us some lines what's outside when we start get bored? some lines from the poem splaining where the treasuries I've gone alone in there and with my treasures, bold, I can keep my secret where an hint of riches newman- oh, begin. It we're warm waters, halt and take it in the canyon down not far but too far to walk, put in below the home of brown from their its nope As for the meek, the end is drawing ever nigh, they'll be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high

if you ve, been wise and found the blaze looked quickly down your quest to cease, but terrorists and with more gaze, just take the chest and go in peace, so why is it that I must go and leave I trove for all to seek the Answer I already know I've I've done it too. Here and now I'm weak. so here me on listen. Good you're effort will be worth the cold if your brow If, in the wood I give you the title to the gold, That has everything you need to know Then he over the decades. makes himself available. I utterly in terms of rascally cleanness, though I think before we, when we get back up to two thousand nine, which is a year before he hid the treasure when the fbi knocks on his door and many

other are dealers and diggers, and holders of you know artifacts from the four corners area and the fbi eyes. I don't know what the name of the case was but then was involved, and I think they took like ten things from his home, some small stuff, I'm all the way to a bison skull. They had taken. But no charges were filed in this deal, but they kept the stuff. no, I don't know about that. I think he got them back. I mean your choice just followed out a bunch against a bunch of other people. I think like over thirty people were arrested, but not against him. But your arm, you know its inner, as you pointed out, but if the fbi, then your door and takes a bunch you stuff and there is no charges filed. They give you your stuff back. Why brought up as though you did some bad because It's like I killed by your debate

determine that it did something bad Fen fan appear to be like the most minor player. In what any to happen. And it was so big that I think that there were three people that committed suicide. In the case to people that had their doors knocked down to grab stuff and then the informant himself killed himself now then never had any charges in the think, but It looks I if the f b, I kick spencer's georgia. As soon as I get where they had the wrong door. They meant to go to the neighbor's place. I was like still one thing and one that happens. He must be a bad person. One thing that happened, associated press falsely reported that fenn had been indicted and they then had to correct that, but so, like the day of, he was probably the most best known person of all the people who got rounded up in that whole operation, and so it was kind of hard to you know, bring the horse back into the barn after that was reported people just thought than was more implicated than he was vienna, and I don't think it's like a far leap either

the seller, Alan Dershowitz you're about to say it is like, oh good. I like it if you didn't even get in trouble and got his ship bag. I don't know that's about like under but I don't get too far leap till I gotta get. This happened two thousand nine, and then year later he hides, One or two million dollars worth of sudan beds refuses of memorabilia somewhere in the rocky mountains and doesn't tell anybody where so there is suspicion there, and here is why a lot of people throughout this, unlike even now that it's pretty much. never have suspected that there was no treasure or that, like this was a ploy sell books and I'm sure we will revisit this part of the story itself, but it plays into the thing like this. Guy doesn't have a perfect past, and so it could be a reason why this isn't it

like an innocent treasure around ah applies only to counter that they had your car that little plot twisted reporting ban. and what but the idea that he's like. I know what I'll do with all my illegal stuff has put in this box and buried out in the woods yeah. But yes, but I'm glad you remembered it cause I actually had forgotten apart. You chose to put their new article. I did why, because I forgot about this It's almost a good fit. It's a long, ass article yeah I was looking at looking at. I couldn't put the fen cash in there. You know yeah. The whole point was to talk about the fed cash. The project all these points, because I wanted to be close point article from Ben walls. Would I get was that is only brush up with, like the fbi, the you know of, yeah, but he was. I actually talk to a b o m agent who who is involved in that case, unlike

had been on everyone's radar for years when he was like constantly kind of a figure of suspicion. He knew a lot of the people, well, and he was someone who really seemed to kind of tread close to the line a lot and was constantly having these skirmishes with. You know, archaeologists with museums with the state government, and so he was kind of right to be under suspicion now, regardless fan or the decade or over the years makes himself sort of available to to thee, hundreds of emerging individuals, thousands thousand who set out to find the treasure now? want to talk a little bit about who these

people are how they operate, how they communicate, but in that include that. Fan continues to grow little like getting warmer. or no, not that. I can assure you that this like talk about how that dialogue emerges between the treasure hunters. The treasure, hider or fear and had always been here. He loved the media. Many was actually conch. one of the things he was controversial for in the santa fe art community was the degree to which he kind of courted press attention, and so it was inevitable that when he starts this treasure hunt like part of the appeal for him would be all the attention it was going to him, and so he was very open. Not only it was open to treasure owners, but was also very open media. He went on the today show buncher times which, in in twenty thirty

He went on the today show and it kind of blew the whole thing up. I mean that's when I think a lot more people got into the hunt, but after he did his initial appearance on the today show just talking about you know this hunt. He had started three years earlier. He agreed to come back on. The today show once for the next nine months and give a clue each time and he did it mean, three times and then I think he got he sort of stop liking. The the the pressure that today shows putting on him to give a serious which time gives giving pretty minor stuff like whilst not in a graveyard. You know, I think that today show is gonna like we need you to give us better than, There was no moon while possess yet more possess liking. It so they wanted to, like they wanted to leader discovery right, they're, trying to force I think, so, the trying to narrow the search possibilities and okay, so simultaneous with that their emerges. This robust community

of treasure hunters around the Fen treasure and vienna, on internet, they all get together and a bunch of forums that are extremely active, and you know people throwing out their various theories which they called solves or people talking about their. You know boots on the ground trips as they referred to their field trips. To actually look for the treasure I and, like you know like the internet, is about everything I mean it was a. It was a very varied group of people with varying levels of evidence, backing up their theories and see so you know there are people put forward serious interpretations of the poem and then there be other people who would, say, Did you notice in that interview friend was wearing a hat and theirs? Holding the hat, and if you look closely under a microscope that huh, was the shape of colorado. So I think that's telling us the truth.

there is in colorado, yeah. You. Some of the clues he gave her substantive absolutely He is one of the first major, please gave was he narrowed? The initial disk from where the treasure was? Was it's in the mountains north of santa FE, an initially a lotta people thought that men was in new mexico at a certain point. It kind of and people realize he was talking about the rocky mountain. As a whole, but he excluded. Use on idaho and he excluded canada. So then it was Physically narrowed to the fore, search states, war, montana, wyoming, colorado and new mexico and didn't but one thing if you went north long enough, it eventually wind up back south of his house and, as must be, where was exactly one one one, one of the big circumnavigate a global one hand over now, but this is actually a woman. You ran one of the main forums, for theory, was was buried in friends, back yard and I said, but what about it? Being north of santa fe ingenuity,

all the way around the world. You can be as backyard and still be north of santa fe. He then peoples are dying, Then people started, I mean people were were interpreting. Whirling like like home, brown people started interpreting as an outhouse, so he had to eliminate like say: if not it's not in and out ass, not under an out us, etc, ducked evidence. But hardly so homer brown. You get into that you because there's another interesting, everyone want everyone whose catcher in the rye which you have garee has found a book catch in the rye read by J D, salinger Jd Salinger's publisher was little brown. The Salinger family ended up owning a property, and why warming, or so it was a salinger ranch. It was in why homing, I'm not sure whether or not so homeless around. That must be a little brown.

Their authors. Families ranch crazy shit, so this that the search began just attracting thousands and thousands of people, some of those people, were kind of desperadoes there that you know they quit their job, They or they went bankrupt or they are they. The kind of had not Lose nay they went out there. Out of them hadn't minimal, if any wilderness experience- and I have a great book fischler brought with them the government. What is its available for pre ordered called them. The mediators guide to wilderness skills and survive but to save a lot of lives. Vitalized lotta people are so what to say the least So this guy named randy bill you put in to the rio Grande day on a inflatable raft and is

not heard from again with objectives like wasn't it like at the child. As a child's inflatable raft, he's gotten his head, because the words put in. Are in there he's gotten his head that it's like you need to do a float did your river flow find like did he put in somewhere care? the treasure and then prose, down the river and saw that was so. I restart through float trips, seven structuring flow trips so eventually is by his found. He drowned too more guys drowned one. Also in the rio Grande day, another in the arkansas river, a fourth guy died in yellowstone national park. He was he slip on the slope and dropped five hundred feet to his death and then another guy snowmobiles into honest or national monument wearing like a finn, jacket and genes and froze to death.

in that same guy has worn out with those balls with many years. Why? You shouldn't? I guess, a month before hand, he had to get rescued for the same thing. Some of these moments that inspired fancy like give further news, as he talked about having his analog was trying to stem the bleeding yeah so like when, when this randy died in the rio grande, I think a vintage. You said it's like not in the rio grande er, he had said it's not south of san affairs by that, basically eliminating the real. And in an randy's wife you barely covered. This banner saw it, but She like came out and was very vocal. There like this treasure does not exist, dissolve hope. Because you want to see the guy problem I'm sure she had many motives for her husband being killed looking for the treasure, but she was like one of the very vocal people it was like this. This is,

real and I'm actually the head of the new mexico state police peek, a set us publicly implored fancy to end the hunt to stop that, yeah it in your article of surprise, read too that the. the fence treasure dishes to breaking bad. The television show is credited with an influx and tourism to new mexico. There was that substantial new mexico tourism department created a video featuring fin as part of like their tourism drive, we're, because we ve had new mexico advertise tourism And in the nodes says, you can't mentioned breaking bad but then say not to mention the fence treasure hunting,

well, yeah. I think breaking bad, send a lot of people to albuquerque and and fence, and a lot of people to santa FE yeah. You know he. Then he gave some other he also started gives them clues, like he kept saying, keep he said, in the put in river access dissolved each other from article. What in terms of the river access someone eventually a searcher where they call himself chaser strangers ass. Him did you Return like when you deposited the treasure, did you return by the exact same path, and he said yes,. Which eliminates this idea that he did a river trip exactly and then he said, I guess a number times. He said I was home eighty when he buried at your head. It is forty five pounds

Eighty years old, I carried it from my car so keep that tulip, presumably to eliminate a lot of the people, the dude that crazy yeah. He eliminates. I like it's, not a. That was the main thing: it's no! It's nowhere and eighty year old man couldn't have gone, but yeah specifics, not the rio grande. I think he might even set it's not in a river or beside a river I think he may be eliminated like national parks, because the yellowstone thing lemme network phobia. Maybe maybe the yellowstone things like you? Don't need raw climbing gear, it may be something from where those the audience nothing you're lucky you dont need crampons or like you can be repelling down. Although there was a guy and other guy who are repelled into the grand canyon and ran out a rope before he got to the bottom and then one like eleven national park service people came to rescue him

they got him down. He ran away because he was worried. One of them was gonna steal his solve people in there was an indiana treasure hunter in yellow stone, dead got caught in theory. He wasn't supposed to be in yellowstone national park, doing something he wasn't supposed to be. I think he was doing some raw climbing and when got to the judge. He said you might call me a lunatic whatever, but I feel whole heartedly I solved. At fenn treasure thing, I still looks down there, your honor idear anybody to figure out a better solved, and so his defence of doing in this place. He wasn't supposed to be like that's where the treasure was. Your honor that's why I should be innocent. If there were, I just say, look there were there were hundreds of people who said I definitely have the correct solve and when people would say will Then why don't you have the treasure they would say either like. He clearly removed it.

it was never there and this whole things a hoax or theirs. Let's be like a proxy item there, but the treasure itself isn't gonna, be there. So, instead of just say I guess my solve was wrong. Now. Can you, get into other. We ve got touched on The crazy shit is like right, the crazy it's fun, but you can just kind of imagine like the hole in his hat and people, and you covered how people started getting very interested in his biography and they're kind of can for that, like rosebud moment from citizen kane, right of like what would be some place of partition. Residents to him, or he would have put this thing because he has I was that he put it somewhere important to him, so it as we somewhere, that he's Ben. So, how do we find were always ban and all his kind like avenue This whole avenue of approach emerges of like that that you'll find additional materials within his biography, but

I spent some time on, some of the people who are who were thinking about it, probably in the correct way, So a lot of the more serious searchers focused on yellowstone, but his friend had said my heart is in yellowstone and as a child. He had spent a lot of time with his family on fishing camping trips in yellowstone. So so that's where I would say would most of the most serious searchers than I encountered spend most Their time- and there are still some people in new mexico looking not that many in colorado quite a lot montana, but wyoming and yellowstone in particular, was was sort of the biggest focus for a lot of people. One of the

if very popular spots was just like thirty miles from us. The way the crow flies had been lake because he had pictures in his biography of him at hampton lake and riding horses there and talked about how much he loved it and stuff like that. That became a very popular place as well. Specifically, it had been like. Do you know that the that the osborne Russell and his journal visit before having a lake existed? It's an insult of you know. It's a artificial lake is an impoundment and they used to call that. the fire whole as well. They call holes like sheltered valleys. We could spend the winter just some guy showed up there in a holding is on fire all that timber, he's been, the bottom was burning and they called the firewall than godlike subsumed by lay cabin.

People started feet realize you're, starting to feel that there has to date. Did that the palm can't do it. like, like a literal under standing of the words in the poem that it can't be adequate like It can't put you on a spot to find a ten by ten inch box where it was just so it was so vague. It could be interpreted in so many ways and just to take one example, the clue where warm waters hall, you know, could referred it uncountable, so hydrothermal locations. You know there's so many. I went down to the boiling river. My first moved montana lookin Looking for this treasure all started on a big, I wasn't, you know, maybe a mistake it for iraq, but because fed, but then

one of these treasure hunters that that the primary treasure hunting profile talks about that funded, I mentioned in some writing or some lecturer something he had met. as a kid being in a river and I'll. Hop around near a hot spring, trying to find water this river? Actually it was, but the he would hop round and talk about play. There were two high places that what you called and saw him saying begin: were warm waters and or whatever some serious people to think that. That's that that that, like that's kind of where you need to look right and you get another guy that thought sunlight basin red. That was also the same guy who who's first search location, was boiling river and really fixed on sunlight basin was that was the place where he found the Salinger ranch, and there are other son. Lady thought might refer to. The warmth were suddenly creek, and he found there was a mine. Claim were his clues

but if I let him there that happen to be owned by an l, l see company that was registered to an attorney in cody who sat on a museum bored with then. So he thought that was, seemed kind of interesting it. One of the areas these guys focused was: is it on public or private land and one of the things they looked at? Was this idea? That fan probably did some do diligence about the legality and so expert that little bit of the of the solve, I mean we're so many potential legal issues right like what? What's? What are the tax issues, depending on what kind of land it's on what you know? What are the is it government property or can a finder claim at his property You know what's gonna happen with this, is it are the land rights stable, like with it for five hundred years, will the same with the land still be

preserved in the same way or might have come into private ownership or leased out for logging or were not so you know there was a lot of thought given too what kind of land might fan have most seriously considered to turn to avoid those issues and where was the the. Good money was on what public or private I would say public, but but even that have, The complications in private probably had more complications. You couldn't search it ray. You couldn't certain putting off somewhere where people wouldn't be look yet unless it was private land that he secretly owned, which was one point, will you people looked at when they tried to search to see if they were looking through public records. Looking for, but you know, things are kind of concealed by a corporate ownership, and but there was a lot of attention paid to that possibility. Did he at one point in time hey spencer, mentioned to me, did hear one point time announce that someone had,

a couple hundred yards from it. He sent on more than one occasion that a bunch of people had been within five hundred feet and wondered people had been within two hundred feet of the treasure, like actual searchers actual because it would send an email. She was feeling hundred hundreds of emails like over a hundred a day comes Those were constantly contacting him and he was you know, engaging with and so they would say: hey I just here's my solved. They won't sell, em they're. Solving some of them are hoping, he would give him a clue or a hen and which he would not do for the most part, and so that's how he knew where people, searching. Yet they all these dialogue, that kind of happens among fan and searchers and then fan and media in these different interviews, it causes like some missing clues that like or is it real?

not one of them and I came across a lot was at fan had supposedly set at some point during this that he had made a day trip from his house to hide the treasure which would hung up. A lot of people are ok. Well then, it can only be this far north from his house, but he said looking for and you can actually find where he said that There's like georgia of of the searchers that think that's psychology clue, but it can't be true anywhere into. I think, there's a lot of stuff like that specific thing, that's like one. If the general supposedly said that the way to the planes. Indians is to kill all the buffalo and then historians. Eventually realised that there was never said, yeah so like that the searching community head intentionally or unintentionally created these red herrings. Like this, you know it's a data from his house sort of thing. There were also like these super searchers, who kind of befriended fair

It would really focus a lot on developing that relationship and it could insert amount of disharmony and politics in the in the chase community, because people would think that some people were secretly been given like a leg up that they didn't have that they were getting tips from Finn. Ah, I want to bump along to more contemporary realizations here, but I have a thing to I want to cover two observations. One was I'm sure where people that were secretive but attended a collaborative you post yourselves, I mean the collaborative people would in the circle once you were so that there was a community people, who'd be like hey how about this yep? Hey? How about this? Now, like hoarding it for themselves, this one like see it gets, they want to see resolution and now some take ownership of who read and.

One of the searchers that that the primary source you focus on tommy's, navigate just imposing who takes an extremely organised, passionate, expensive, exhaustive approach to this. He and a friend Hit our idea they dont attempt they here. An idea of this, this technology, we'll tool. That's out there that can track someone's eyeballs. As an outlook in at a screen like what are they look at it as their looking at a screen. It software that we'll see what to the human eye, imperceptible movement- and also what you're trying not to look at you can show someone a scream and get a sense like this person is, is purposefully. Not putting their eyes in that direction or what

over, and they get this idea that if they could get fed in a room with this software, with this programme flash for him a map of the rockies they will pick up. What is eyeballs dont want when this eyeballs, which really does have one lie, detector tests like see, I next levels, and then they would dynamically keep changing what he was seeing. So if, like his eye, was going towards, let's first, it's in wyoming like northwestern wyoming. Then it would Neatly like zoom in on a close up of northwestern wailing, and then it would look at what are you looking at her avoiding looking at their and they would do it like you re very rapidly in the computer, could do it almost instantaneously and just inside when he was working on. I tracking technology for a major technology company music is a software engineer that its shockingly precise

and he doesn't do it on ethical grounds, read I mean getting fan of rome room looking at a screen screen already begins to tread close to potentially sound who had kidnapping, but even if he's there voluntarily, it just seemed like not not fair play like it's. It's almost like you and their interests using an unconventional weapon, the other interests invariably yet now real jump ahead. to Ellen s ban were his personal favorite find theory was like if you had to guess. Where was I mean I I kind of thing that these- the solution that I may talk about a little bit was the correct one. I don't about you well, I don't know I enjoyed all of it. They like a biased. I

the idea of being a Paradise valley, because it's an hour from where we're sitting right now and there is like a lot of very obvious stuff in there It seemed to make sense where it is like warm waters, halt the boiling river ride, the canyon down yankee, Jim canyon, home round the general brown boat launch. The end is ever nigh, there's no montana, and because I live here, I'd like the idea of the Paradise valley thing and you're kind of a rock hound not a rock figured out right. How that's that's actually like, probably where I saw the greatest overlap in communities, were like people who like to look for rocks and then people would like to look for treasure way more Then, like people, fishing or mushroom hunting or something. I need to tell you if you are, yellowstone egg and ship, I found the mother lode sought later

tyler. Like every big news story, wake up one day not long ago and many many text messages from various friends. The fan cash has been discovered immediately. Everyone, I talk to says bull shit. because of I'll tell you: why is bullshit forest van? These five people have died for, this ban is under pressure to stop. The bleeding

he's being sued by various participants who have devoted a decade of their life. Defining the treasure There is an aim like nothing. Merging years. I've been a rumour that it's a lie is becoming too bird, some for him he's. Failing health, which is borne out by the fact that died a couple days ago? Is a failing health you just needs to bring it to a close. The foreigners over so he bore Shit up some photos or whatever and in and just tries to like wind down. Not clarity. The guy that found it doesn't want to be known. It's all a lie. It just goes to show you that it's all a lie, that is the the initial narrative, as I understood it, that fair spencer, I don't make everybody. Was that pessimistic like you and I

were so. I feel that way a little by anyone having us right right now it now looking back now there would he died in like september and whose found in other war was a July june right the aid again like the timing, is a little bit suspicious. Just like with the f b I raid and im hiding the thing and but yeah I dunno. There's decide, warranted suspicion, still alabin, take it from here was it one about one other one, other part of the burden was like I mean his family was dealing with like they had a guy break into their house with an axe and his water held the guy gunpoint. There was another guy who was stalking his granddaughter, then at a lotta reasons why he may want to read it a monster in you might want to end this. tells was known about the finder in what might be known about where it was found. Alright. So if initially just said,

it's been found kind of more details to come. You know, people were a lot of. You were scrapped, All people wanted to know more, maybe a week later, reposed a couple foe. Those of him with what looks like the recovered, try stir, in what looks like a like a lawyer's office or at a conference table, but it's got dirt encrusted on some of it and age signs of aging, and but still it just wasn't enough People were like reading really angry, both him and the fao. Under four not telling more about what? Where did newfound and friend said? I have all We said- and this is true- he had always said- I'm going to leave it to the finder to choose whether or not to identify themself and to choose whether or not to reveal the location and the speculation was. It was for the legal potential legal implications. What if the guy I want to pay taxes on it and reported to the irs van at all has been kind of anti government, so he may be sympathetic to that. In any case, he had said that's what he would do and he did

but people were really angry about it. Everyone wanted closure. A lot of people thought it was a hoax. I mean I was. I was pretty skeptical for all the reasons you mentioned and anyway there's a ton of pressure on him. Finally, couple of weeks after the discovery he posts online again as the final agreed. You know, for the benefit of the community that reveal another detail, and that is the state in which it was found. and it was found in wyoming, so some people are satisfied by that some people thought it was further evidence of something on the up and up because the three lawsuits against him concern colorado in new mexico. sing, it was in wyoming he immediately and of invalidated the premises of these losses. Unlike the singular details if he had given, was that it was a man and he was from back east which, when you live in new mexico, there's a hell of a lot. That's east of you said it decide the details, weren't even details, really,

now a better how baggies is used. for a guy who here, you remember scorning the exact college, some dude from nebraska. Ok, it's not that I mean it's nearly trims off. Maybe a hundred million americans, but there's still a couple hundred million left over that way. at the santa fe new mexican, which is his hometown newspaper. After, like the solve hat or after he was found, and it was announced and stuff they had, they made a really good analogies. They said this is like a detective solving a murder without identifying the killer. That, sir, the feeling that this gave everyone. Well, if you listen to this bad kissed, you will be familiar with this. or if we had an episode with a guy, some very similar to this episode with a writer who summit missing in costa rica. The assumption was the he'd been murdered, about his efforts to

find his son, roma, roman dial, roman dial wrote a book about this. Those was efforts to Find the sun's body identify the murderer and the and his son was killed by a tree that fell in a storm, So he solved a murder but did not identify a killer, but that your pipe. It's like that same unsatisfying feeling, though our normal, but an important smoking spencer. Now you tell that the santa fe new mexican then go on its found. It's it's found in her by a shy guy back eve, mass real wallflower. It's in wyoming people were just nine. People were not satisfied, and so the

the suspicion and the scepticism. I would say: yes increased people's wanted to no more than just and they weren't buying it. And a lot of people, including like some of the most focused devoted you sensible, searchers thought it fought like fan, had ended the hunt and and gotten the treasure, retrieve the treasure or had a family man I do it in the the the the searcher again that you spend the time on posey Jonathan yup, justin posey at first he's like depressed and kind of catatonic yeah, but then, instead of quitting, searching so it'd be move on to whatever the hell. Snacks like I'll, get a dog and had a home he's like he resumes just searching for the spot where it had been we'll just as if this is insane was aside side. Note I mean he already had a dog.

I know it's dog I forgot about so this also disorient one of one of his super methodical. You know tactics that he used to kind of increases chances of finding trevor. Was he added a visa named tucker if I pound visa- and he had read about how, in the nineteen sixties in russia and Finland and sweden, they had geologists had trained what were called or dogs who had an ability to ce to sniff out mineral deposits that are like buried forty feet deep, and so he began to wonder what what we know the chest is made a bronze. We also know that searches have gotten within five hundred to two hundred feet of the chest. You know it would really sock. If I got close to the chest, but not close enough, I could at least eliminate not possibility if I train tucker, to be able to smell bronze so we train tucker to smell bronze burien dog, treats next to bronze chunks and badly bought at amazon, correct and then eventually

woodbury the bronze, give the exactly yet this fella, this gentleman it was like loud is keep surgeon and just try to find a little hole. Worsened well who do drag the treasure I mean he was on. He was out alone. He was not alone an enormous number of people I got talked to would be like you know. you going to do now that the search is over and the like Oh I'm going I'm goin searching next week was: I saw the sir Jesus you were with me. That's all you were with me, yeah it's like peters, terror, something the search, I don't know the glassy says the searches yes, I know the science fair,

I was gonna, say it's like a sunk cost. Fallacy type thing right where it says, like you've dedicated your whole life to this. It's like well, I gotta keep going with this Yes, in the same way that there were people are like, yet my solves correct and the fact that the treasures there you're not their means it wasn't there retook it. These people would say well, this kid you're there like a second, does a second treasure like they know it. If there is like there's a second treasure buried there or the tree the treasure was finder, probably left part of the treasure there, because that's what I would have done so there was, where there were reasonings behind the whole document. Is it peter steer, hit it steve I'll, say it again, I'll say it again yeah

the do you do when they make this into a movie and bans like in the movie and shit in the end, we will have the subway. Survivor her keeping nine years ain't that so I have a question out of all the searchers EU interviewed is there a common thread like what's the typical psychological profiles, I mean that there is actually a scholarly study done by a psychologist at the university of north dakota row of the fin she's community- and you know you you read the study in it which is available online and it's, like you know, he's using all the same, logical terminology like normative in our personality and like who disorder and done it. But basically it seemed like me.

Two of them were pretty normal, but there were ten percent of the community who described themselves as having an addiction. and those are the people who are most active on the forums. Those are probably most of the people. I talked to cause that they're, the ones who kind of know about each other, and you you meet at these events. Huh Yet in I'm trying to lead you gently whereby to go here, Ben the dude policy. wants to find the spot, because if you can find the spot, he can He can find what the solve was, or he can legitimize like he can figure out what it was, then he can. reverse engineer whether it was real or not

for me. You didn't doubt that it was real, but since for him the main goal was always like the the cracking of the puzzle and not the getting of the gold like the fact that someone had found the gold didn't end. the puzzle challenge for him, so he thought he d still wanted to solve the puzzle and now, even more motivated, has been found, and it was I mean those concern that I am. I even got to know that I'm there if the chest has been removed, Maybe if I do it relatively soon, will still be at least before this winter. You know there will still be evidence of where the And he's got photographs to go off now, because this, the finder snapped we'll cellphone pictures of the box happen is so in september. someone calling himself the finder posting. Article on a website called medium saying. I'm find or in telling the story about, but it pretty vague story, but about there, the finder another, does not twenty five days. What They knew the general area, and you know that

crying in getting torn by branches, and they found the treasure anymore. with forest and all of this, but there are not enough. Normally would be easy to dismiss them because tons of people throughout this whole thing of claimed. I found the treasure, but in this case they included photographs That had not been a word and were not among the photographs, then had posted so, but they were clearly outtakes from the same photo shoot. So it had to be someone who had some connection to the situation and also the Fen family posted a link to this article on their website, which gave it that validation, so people are like okay. This is the finder okay. So then, a few

weeks later, another searcher gets an email from someone who says like I know who the fight the finder is, and I know where the treasure was found and that find or gets just involved and together they they go out. Looking for what is supposedly the real location where the treasure was found in it was, and it was in yellowstone and thee. The solve according to this source, was that basically there were words in the poem that sound or look like numbers. There were either while the coma phones or which is sound. Like words or a kangaroo words where there would be like a number word within another word like done, includes the word one rain, and basically if you took all of these numbers, that you could take out a poem in sequence. They gave you latitude and longitude coordinates

and those coordinates were at a site in yellowstone park, Whereat yellowstone. near to its awake at the continental divide, which is kind of a city like a like. Looking at the scabbard, like an auspicious sort a lake for clue given because it flows both ways are like a dream is says, on the continental divide, right and some alec drains one way and the other or something like that is apparently it's the only natural lake in the world that drains to two watersheds huh, it's right off one, ninety one like right there, so he coulda. Oh marked when a man could have to read right from his car and this dude justin starshine a match up. Photographs right. I mean what the what he's really trying to do is verified. the information that the source has provided rio

the source of provided a few photographs. The source is provided. Information of you know these words in the poem led to these coordinates, and so he was trying to verify that what the source was seeing and where the source had taken. The photos were held up, but it was still question about, like is the source, credible radio and the reason they were taking the source seriously was because it was right after the treasure was found, arrogantly the kind of leaders of the forms were worse or being inundated with. Like you know, I was the finder literally more than thirty peoples, and I was the finder the ring in It was like. I know what the solve was like more than three hundred. These of this, it would solve was seduced ignored them all and it was this one guy who send an email that you no end to My colleagues who ran into one of the the sites saying like No, the finer, I know the solve any wrote back cobra and has it, but then, in september the guy rates him beginning

There's like next week, there's gonna be some news coming out and then the next week this medium article comes out, from the finder and so I got me like, I actually does know something. So then he started talking to him and this this this source basically said he had met the finer online. There been a group of them. We were discussing these sort of coordinate based and homophobia solves, and apparently the source was not very happy that now that he was not the finder and he was like some is going you everything I know mom. Is it that's what just imposing going out there with these two other searches, cynthia, Meacham and christy thor, to try to verify what the source had said in what did they find so they so they found first they go out and and find nothing. They go out to the. What they think the gps coordinates are find nothing they go back the next day I mean it gets kind of. I didn't call, but basically they figured if they determine that if you raptor- and I think they talked to the source again, if you start the poem at

begin it. Where warm waters halt. You get the first of the coordinate numbers and then you have to wrapped around at the end of the palm to the beginning of the palm and at the so the numbers in the four stanza come last, and if you also use like what is apparently standard decimal notation for coordinates, you get point to which is twelve seconds and he had previously been treating too is meeting two seconds. Twelve seconds put them exactly at a location that just impose he was able to his satisfaction to match up with this photographs based on like the angles of leaning, trees, the distance between trees, the height of the later on, although obviously the more kind of that than the stuff that deteriorates market We was less reliable wildwood. There was a thing about. There was. three species represented on the ground right right, fair, ubiquitous in the west, but still there's like it. He would. He was Can I overlays of these three species exactly like an?

regional photograph rebellions, one deciduous leave that they thought was an aspirin. There were large pull pine needles, yo, there's one a cottonwood twig. I think they thought so is looking for, like the convergence of those three species, which is a mighty big area, but still apparently I mean he said at that. Actually it turns out that aspen forest station is not nearly as ubiquitous as you might think in wyoming I dunno you might know otherwise We actually had somebody stephen mediator, instagram comments that we had commenting on multiple posts in there like my coworker solved it. It was my co worker that found it so, reach out to that guy and I was like, whose coworker leg Why should I believe you that kind of stuff and he's like wait? This is what he told me here. You can talk to him he's just in Oh no, is the other way around. I said well, here's my info. Have him contact me, so he contacted me and he's like yep, I'm the guy that found it. I was like okay, I like, How can you prove it? Can you show me a picture or something that we can talk about this more and he's like? Well, here's the deal. There was no treasure,

and it was. It was one of those people ban, etc there, but he had like multiple days, exchanging emails and tax and stuff you're telling me he was a guy. In that it wasn't me, belle, colorado and and then he eventually, you know told me that I got there actually was no treasure, but I solve these clue in here. The reasons why in Stuff like that, but I was hot on the trail for a few days I was like I got it. Oh that'd be cool, a little further and, unlike my internet sleuth and cap yeah, Ben how how commoner you they like. That's! Where was yes I mean I'm, not very I'm not very competent emulate gets the question. I asked just imposing how companies he and he, I think, put his confidence that, like eighty five percent like it, thank you thinks it is it, but there are reasons to to die, I mean one one thing: they gave him confidence in it was they scooped up some dirt in a plastic bag at the site that the coordinates led them to and brought it back?

in the parking lot cause they hadn't been able to bring Tucker the dog into the park and they let's talk her out of the out of out of the truck, and he he runs around sniffing and then he gets to the pile of dirt and immediately sits down, and his tail starts wagging, which apparently and looks up for a treat which was apparently the what happens when he finds bronze. And so I thought there might be like some sort of minuit bronze residue in the dirt. How confident? I just thought a good idea. Man. You can get the credit card records of everyone that fence knows to see where they were buying gas and see if they are buying gas up thereabouts? When you went to retrieve the bar, to end the search and his relatives areas. Relatives who are pilots also them fight records, How confident are you.

And in as when you answer this put in the input you have from people who are most obsessive about this, but who are rational individuals? How confident are you now It's now there was a treasure and all that. Okay, how confident are you that it was lit a legit find it wasn't a family deciding time rapidly I will say until the latest development with this coordinate solve, I was actually I was pretty sure the family must have made a decision to rap.

I hope this has made me think. Probably there was a finder it, the the chances that you could find latitude and longitude coordinates in sequence in this poem that could lead you of all places on the planet out of billions of possible locations to a spot in the search area is very small, so that carries a certain amount of weight. I also think you know, since this coordinate solve has been announced within the community mean there's been a ton of skepticism, but people are still trying to match the the poem clue It's like home of brown, where warm waters halt to this location, and I think, there's a good chance. Like none of that ever matter, yeah I was going to ask him all of his words were only to lead to get you to figure out the numbers or, if those words also pertained to to clues. I kind of think so even if you know these this location like there's no way the words could ever lead you to repress precise place, and if you have the coordinates, you don't need

were so when you need, I want you need a bunch of words. Have numbers into you need a bunch of. That of numbers and end. He also as a fan of the rhine, They got a right, they got a rhyme, yet is it. I am big. taylor remember, learn at school? I mean that is a a meter, I'm not sure if this one is that I don't remember what it means as memory needed to learn. I think shakespeare bringing it back but shakespeare. I am a pentameter yeah you're not going to have an answer for benzos, but like What will the person do with the treasure? How can they possibly use it as a treasure would be used to like get all these riches and not reveal to anything Things are like how little man are you to learn or a dude with a lot of jewelry? yeah.

Why would you he's also shy? Yeah, don't expect that to be very big it a lot of noise. We may have an answer in the medium article posted by the capital, letters, the finder. They said, I'm a millennial and I have student loans, and I cannot afford to keep the treasure and my first attempt is going to be to have it end up in a place. Forrest wanted it to which people think was amusing, and probably maybe the buffalo bill museum in cody, but basically there try to sell it at auction, where I think they can maximize the value not just of the act. objects, but of the whole story around it. The historian doesn't make any sense to liquidate year in and year guy, that you spend most your time with your searcher that you spent, because you could spend time with the finder because he doesn't mind boots has bred. He doesn't want to he's too shy and too concerned about the whatever economic issues he's faced with now legal issues. The

I, the one of the guys you spend time with was, kicking around like how he might like to get it but acknowledges that is beyond probably can be beyond as me. it's because it's not even going to be sticker value, yeah yeah I mean he thinks it'll be exponential or more a multiple. So you know, let's say instead of one million, It's ten million is worth a million bucks ten years ago now I mean it's also based on the you know, fluctuating price of gold so sure, and whatever who knows yeah, ah And you mentioned in the end, you close by saying that this searcher chaser is thinking about Assembling his own treasure and following in the footsteps of forest fires, that's right. He found a meteorite which is confirmed as a meteorite. Apparently a lot of theirs, more where that came from and so on.

Together would be very valuable and that's that would be the basis of this treasure that he would hide and set up his own treasure hunt. spencer's personal ads arise. Out of the crowd is my doing we're another. Maybe this is a meteorite any it like the dollar value on those things is crazy. So if this person has a meteorite to hide, that's that's good. That's a valuable treasure spent here for you it s about meteorites, will in time or some aspect. of any use dealing with a meteorite did in a candidate country guys, roof and montclair new jersey. came there is room cracked, his toilet yeah. I didn't know thousand and eagles those third pillar that is there. A meteor city I think we are going to ever have like the satisfying ending, like the

murder solved, but we haven't identified the killer thing. Are we gonna get all the details someday? I mean, I think, the the the combination of the the source coming forward if they are legitimate, has kind of taken away a lot of the you know the best part of the story that the finder has to tell, but I can't see why they, wouldn't especially if there, if they are concerned about you, know how much money they have. In the easiest way in the world to make money would be for them to sell their story. Rights, write them into to the right publisher of a nice book about it. They could, you know, make a movie about it, and so I would. I would think that the finder would want to come forward at some point, especially if it's more than one person and apparently it might be team of a few people and that that also like one of the big red flags for people referring to the forest van treasure thing, because he felt published the book. So he was getting all the pros, from this treasure map hidden in the poem And then there is a long.

There were the books were selling for like a hundred dollars on amazon and ebay, and it was like incredibly valuable So that's it pretty. Damn good marketing to be like here. this book I have and within it you can find the deed, fails to a million dollar treasure the didn his award as a round about way to sell some books. Maybe we should try the one thing I'll say about that is actually the he published three memoirs and the first one which was self published and sold through this one bookstore and if they collected works they got all the profits. we didn't because he wanted people to know like I'm not profiting off this. I'm not sure if that's true of the later books, but that first one he he he wasn't and he was already wealthy. He was a wealthy guy. So I'm not sure he'd do that. Can you close by tom out forest spends death? Nothing

suspicious, nothing suspicious, I mean, and you know he was he turned ninety in august and then in early september there was a kind of last gathering of the most devoted searchers in yellowstone and at fishing bridge in west yellowstone. Cambridge and which it has signed, says you can fish, which says no fishing love. and it was the library weekend and then that Monday offend died of what the scientifically said was natural causes. You know with some suspicion or naive about ninety nine years old, these nine years old and his wife died a few weeks later, his wife of sixty six years back, all that's touching yeah. I like that man Three I held on and terrified daughter, my wife does pass us on one of these,

defence? There was some will say now that he should call the search off and he said if there is a pool and people drowned in the pool. Do you close the pool where you teach people to swim and he had express right it that he doesn't want people to get away from their devices and shit and go? do something it is be outside. If that was true, I wonder if the eye, if it backfired- It's hard to tell if this lives more in the device internet, like did he create an internet thing. Where did create a nature thing? If you had

look at him now. I think he did create a nature thing, and I mean tons of people in know, went out on searches, you'd never had. One of the people I interviewed was like a boston cop who drove across country for three days with his son and spent a week camping in the rockies. You know which he admitted never been therapy, so the only through a lot of people like that. If you do get people, but there is definitely a very robust. You know what arm chair treasure hunters who maybe never went to the rockies, never understand a lot of time. Talking on in the forms So how do people? How do you find your art It's one thing: if you go to n Y mag dot com it'll, be there on the front page and why mag dot com yeah? If you run it, their problems, ben wallace type in Ben wallace, fan benjamin wireless and us when you get the do not destroy this also benjamin walls. Been benjamin wallace somethin, like fan? Something then treasure

Europe may magazine aerial ill ill, you'll get there you'll get there. Thank you for common on I'm glad I finally earned a slot on meat eater. Are you thinking about doing look about this, you know I actually. I would like to say I emailed me agent about it and he said there's already like him. It's been in the worked for a while back. I was a trick. Hunter involved for years and it's has been. My major publishing houses enough, yeah you're, your publisher, randomness, which is here all by yourself, your coffee, better vagabond, thank you Who are you to write more staff to come talk to us about it? I mean it's hard to get me eater relevant The material into new york magazine I got in new york is where a lot of like hunting and fishing is happening. You have this

I'll do out of this room, I mean, I hope I will I will this meant what makes it relish is what wasn't, in their words, clovers points which are used for hunt tenuous. That's a tenuous connection and I ain't it is steve's arm. Until I talk about this, is I got a forest fan? Oh did I never said that snake yeah I wrote about for spare when you still had your mama's milk. I know I wrote about poor span in two thousand and eight, but you are, very keen on the idea of like having this be a thing on our website and I'm getting ban more involved in animal podcast? You were not very hard on this. I was by data about other vodkas ass. I think after some text messages run like people are going to want to hear this dude eyes thing to hear that I do not doubt your visit, so I could picture me being a little dismissive of defined. He's a uses holding a grudge because you proved wrong about the squirrels.

Oh no! No! He! He doesn't think that, because doing I have especially coming back on very soon he goes. I have developed an overwhelming body of evidence that contradicts spencer's finding, including including a book by the after the same author who wrote light in the forest, but that near to be continued, began. Gabby. Thank you, for it the The.