The show was severely wounded and, in my case, underwear was the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by an x hunt, creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters download the hunt app from the itunes or google play store, know where you stand with annex Ok, ladies gentlemen year, I your bearing witness to a fee of covert induce technology. Where were all over the damn place, not and our studio? Well, Cows in the studio, hello, kal, hello, Stephen brody- as in the studio, hello, browed, hello and Janius, is in the studio.

We on this love dance the joined join, thereby I think currents and their fills an air of quarantined at home this, my fourth quarantine, this time so quarantined that Out in my own guesthouse. like I'm not allowed anywhere near even my own family. So I have to look out the window. In my home to see my family go about their business Does the saddest thing on the planet but Michael are treating me like an underdog and they're watching off my interests and have gotten very mad at my wife for by talking rudely to me so and if you later they feel they feel very bad for me and joy by gm half a finger. From arizona jump howdy and our friend brandon butler, whose doubt join it from Missouri crack random. That's right now, brand

this is like a short notice brain Come out here cause the weirdest thing happen that I just doubt about someone sent me a link to a go. Find me. That's me put on by brandons friend and brow, and in Hilda what happened. But his so burns dm one camp down in this hunt camp, we recorded podcast out of so that catalan, is the relevance yellow people remember years ago. Jani. I were out spring you got no missouri and it was the time if you really judge your memory back or paid attention to our show back then Jani had got to turkey and I actually found an old cripple turkey and got there like. I jumped up a crippled up turkey and got it and tagged and we were stay at brandons house and sells quite alarmed this morning to

see that sony burnt damn camped out. My full on arson. Pritchett, listen brand johnny! You don't even know about this brand a what happened so yeah that was that was two thousand and eighteen. When unionist came down and join me in parker hall and Steve Jones, we had a great great time and you guys, hadn't it's been there right when the cabin kind of started coming together and called this place. Driftwood acres, it's down in shannon county Missouri, it's a it's a rough part of the world, a very. almost lawless part of the world, so I knew what I was getting into going down there as a professional. Conservationists and yet it didn't. way out so well back in two thousand and seventeen a friend of mine was hunting field. Just off my property. when a little seven porter white tail. We call him some pointers back here in Missouri was out in this field.

A road hunter shot it off the road wounded. It I ran over under my property. They drove out across my property, jumped it up. It ran for my body. whose wearing blaze orange stands up in a tree stand as wave and these people they continue to fight at this dear wounding it more. It goes into a creek and finally, they confront my friend and tell him. It was his fault for not pudding. Orange at at the entrance of this field at the road, so they would know not to shoot from the road? At that time I went up and and confronted these people, I was told to know my place. I talked to the law enforcement and he suggested just that latinus one ride and mandate is just eight at me for years, like the fact that I didn't press charges, I just kind of took it moved on tried to survive down.

This year on sunday of opening day rifle season at eight thirty at night, man, three My friends, Nathan, shags Macleod paddled than cranfield end my cousin, Derek butler, we're sitting around a camp fire, and the creek and flooded, and if you guys, limber but but clerk this just a couple nights ago, well know them too. about dear season. So this would of like november fifteen zero. Burned a couple nights ago. I gotcha got you so because remember I had to bring in through the forest because the creek had flooded. That happens a lot and we're on the back side of it. So the creek is flooded and we're thinking nobody's coming in for deer season. Will this truck comes across the creek ways they stop at the end of my driveway, maybe a hundred and fifty yards down from us. It's along driveway, look up at us having a fire, go about two hundred yards further poland this field throw on the light bars, I mean it would be like turning on the lights at a professional baseball stadium. Just lit this thing up like crazy

jump out and start unloading so close that world watching the muzzle flashes as they poached these dear. So without even thinking jumped in my side by side and took off after him, my cousin and friends, charging down the hill on foot to follow me up thinking, I'm I'm going after poachers unarmed there? Obviously armed they take If I get the license plate number, I call the license plate number in this time. I'm pressing charges there's no way, I'm I'm ever going to live with that guilt again had no idea who it was turned out to be some locals. Ah, the red started coming started being told. I don't belong down there. All that starts coming through, email, social media stuff, like that, tell me that niches and up and ditches good luck, hanging out down here- and

monday night, it at twelve twelve o clock at night. My wife wakes me up the neighbour called and said the cabins burning down right now, so I jumped up grab a few guns. Take off three and a half hour drive get down there about sunrise, just as the final flames or are still flickering so is it was just a building, but the police actions that I had in there were probably thirty taxidermy mounds of mine in families. Might my my grandfather's folds of honor flag from world war two after he passed away, might my hand made great good in the father's bed. I mean just the endless amount of like personal possessions that are just irreplaceable, and thankfully, though I had cameras all over, the person has not been apprehended yet, but they will be and and yeah. So that's it. You know, took a stand for conservation stood up to these boats.

yours and they burn mass down cod man. The pictures are really upsetting to man. Dare it's that still hard to like look at the pictures that every time I look at him I noticed something else that that's their view card, you'll, see my friend Kevin oarsmen bought me an antique book press and in that book press was the the mediator cook, book, ah volume, one and volume two of the the tips and tactics book, so so even last, even last sets of the. If, if you go back to the episodes we did from there, did the wood, I told a story about the steam breathe in turkey and steve. You said that man that that was such a beautiful description. If I was a painter, I would paint that, and am do. Did you guys used it as a tour poster on your your first go around the or you are kind enough to make me twenty copies of the driftwood acres vote?

I know that poster and you and Jan signed it and sent it to me, and it was in a frame next to the actual fan from the steam breathe in turkey. That was center. Between two bucks that I killed down there to books that shag scaled down there that were mounted all that's gone. Every turkey fan that I ever had is gone. Every european mount that I've ever had is gone. Is the go fuck me still up? they have to go for me. Just came up today in your body already put that up on yeah and I'm. I had insurance, I am gainfully employed. I am not in in horrible need of money, so I'm I'm humbled by the outpouring of support and friendship and- and I can say, is like whatever comes from the go. Fuck me will not be used. Selfishly I'll, find a way to use this money to defer. conservation, hunting and fishing, and

I had a full blown raft. You know, like a west, I used to live in montana and fish, the all the rivers you guys fish, and I had a fourteen hundred like a pack raft, an outcast pack. Fourteen hundred burned up on the trailer the water skeeter I had when I lived out there burned up for kayaks, my kids, kayaks and men. That's the hardest part. Like you know, my girls are teenagers they're, fourteen and fifteen years old, so sometimes dragging them down to this wilderness retreat was a pain in the ass, like I had to get the internet for them to even want to go down there so like satellite internet, but they're crying they're scared. It's like they're they're worried these people might like actually come to our home so like I'm leaving the house at twelve thirty in the morning with an a r fifteen in one hand, hugging my fifteen year old, crying daughter with the other hand, and it took about an hour and a

metallica songs, to realize, like what I had done, you know, like I'm, walking out of my house armed with, like a military grade, weapon hugging a fifteen year old child that is crying and I'm like the position that I've not only been putting myself within to react. That way like em, I had to like sit her down and talk to her, and but you know it scary situation, it's a scary place, and so why like? Why are the law? Why is the law enforcement so reluctant to deal with it? I dunno, I don't even get this man it's hard to explain man. I don't have the answers for that. I'm friends with the game wardens down there there under resourced, of course, they're underpaid, I am counting on the sheriffs deputy who probably makes you know in the thirties as far as money and this guy's gotta put his life on the line to go after you know hardened criminals, because my cabin burned down, like that's a lot to ask of somebody to like go

into this holler, where there's no phones, no service, no internet and try to apprehend somebody willing and able to do such a heinous crime for thirty grand a year. So then, you know there's also a huge national park. There called the ozark national scenic river isn't they have law enforcement and, and they have a hard time with getting the prosecutions to go through and there's just to a a real clannish culture down there and and trying to get people prosecuted and through the judicial system is hard as well. So it's you know it's just a very strange part of the world. Very appellation alike it's the poorest county in Missouri, but something has to change and I've got. You know, I'm friends with the lieutenant governor of our state. I've got a call into his office have talked to a lot of law enforcement people. If you know, if I have to be the martyr for this too,

finally raise awareness that there's almost a lawless society existing within our state and the fact that good people cannot go down there and build a home and enjoy the outdoors and increase the economy or anything. It needs to be done to make this a a more civilized society than you know. What's it going to take, so I'm I'm really hopeful that this is a turning point in the history of this county in the history of the ozarks, because it's one of the most naturally before parts of the country, man I wish we could get into the parts it is that we can't quite get into yet, but it's just like kind of a heartbreaking story, man so maddening disheartening man. But what will like I want to revisit it later on. On the road. But one of these about the go find me. I know you're saying I know doesn't really matter and yet insurance but I'll come out say that you ve been real good about. share in that place of people

in general with it. And instead of having a little chunk ground that you lock up for yourself, China have like a place where you invite people in and encourage conversations and try to use it as like, southern its positive and to get people to relate and interact around conservation issues. ngos it's like it's a cruel spot and what you were doing. There is cool man, and I hope that people oh and check out your go, find me, because you didn't lose a ton of staff and it wasn't like a selfish project. He had gone out. It was something you are trying to do to be a good. Do you know so I feel it. You should tell people about the. for me and people come in china lend some support for some on the debt for turn, in some dear poachers

had all their memories in southern. They care a great deal about burned to the ground. Well, thank you very much Exploring the supports been humbling man when I saw my phone go off today with your name popping up. I was like man. This is getting around, you know, so I really appreciate you guys all of you and you know clay newcomb. spend the cabin a few times. How herrings been there and Russell graves at a texas like I was trying to make it something special that would hopefully bring some aware to that area is well. I was trying to do good things for the people down there and and show that this is an incredible natural resource area of our country, but yeah- I don't know man the go, find me whatever money comes from that I'm gonna use it for good for conservation for figuring out how to get more people involved in the outdoors taken more people.

Fishing and hunting. I lost my raft that I I wrote a lot of people down the river in that raft, and so it it it's on the driftwood outdoors facebook page. I think the gofundme is called brandon butler's cabin burned by poachers. You can look it up, but the best way is probably to find it is just to go to driftwood outdoors on on facebook. But what don't you like, like I said you know like this money- will be used in a way that will let these people know that they didn't win, that you know we're going to continue to take a stand for conservation. You know that I have I've been asked that to like man, I bet you wish you wouldn't have turned to men. Am I absolutely not a dude again tomorrow like and I've had a bunch of people reach out, like my favorite thing is like

A few folks have been like this is like the pearl harbor of shannon county, like they don't know what they just woke up like we're going to get after it. So yeah yeah, don't let some piece of shit with a pointless lie. Far drive you out man right and that's absolute truth, so we're just going to keep for tat, you can do in life right, like my family's, safe and healthy. Thankfully nobody was there. You know the important stuff is still intact. Damn ran it, I know air, it hurts to lose all those material possessions, but sounds like you've got the right attitude about it, and, ah you know, thankfully, no humans got hurt, and ah what that som bitch can't take away

from us are those great memories. Man and I've got some incredible memories from that place and I can attest to what you're saying about it's natural beauty. It's absolutely incredible. You wouldn't think that southern Missouri would have water that flows of that color until you go and see it, and I urge every to do it's absolutely stunning, but yet the memory we have burn into my mind. Is that open mornin, a turkey season raw snuck in call that all gather over to me and I shot him in my head. I could just see you and steve up there. On the other side, the ridge corn was that Jani could that could have been They can't take that away from us the feeling of knowing people are jealous of you know what yeah

yeah I'm trying to I'm trying to hunt with steve. You know I want to, of course show you guys a good haunt and a good time, and you know it was like we. We said it was like. It's your carson silent spring. Like stephen, I didn't hear anything it was like wild life had become the void. And then we sharp indiana is like I am so easy you'd one in thirty minutes so may in part We had a good haunt. Do we get three turkey's out of foreign? We we should. I had four, so it was there and that's the original turkey will live on forever. That's right! That's right! I will get, you will get you to replay it with the parts of it that we can help replace like the books and the steam breathe. Turkey poster will get that sorted out. I appreciate you, at nice, calling it on short notice or joining in on short notice manner, but when I saw that I knew I wanted to have eon to talk about acts that was pretty upsetting. Well, I really appreciate it. You guys are the best. Thank you very much and look forward.

and he soon yeah or some dudes commanded kick down on. Go. Find me help me out man thanks a lot gary self, while when you want to come out wherever they go, back to normal we'd love to have you out in the studio, I'd love to do it. Thank you. I either talk to you soon. Alright, thanks Oh yeah, so Jani tell me now: what's gonna with your dog and a mountain and everything to mount lines to be exact, Berta, mangus and eyes. In time of war contracts in chase lines is past week, while you're in pencil talking and we were jake grip, We know as well a body of our oh yeah. Where were you? Where were you there when he got that bobcat recently I haven't been on a bobcat, your yet but tat dark eyes,

hazing man, I don't even know how much we should really be like talking about how much how good he is online cause he's going to start he's going to be like that, that other jake, that we know from wisconsin who people stock, because he knows rather sturgeon are. under the eye of you know- and I am afraid, will put too much attention on him, but anyways I actually had a neighbor call me who had found a track, so we we, it was a day or night how we got to it, but we went ran it. Anyways eventually got and on the cat? Is I think, monday morning, And how did he find the track? How did he find the track Manila stumbled into? It It is an irony. I knew that you eleven this run across the drainage from me, and I had told me to keep an eye out and he was you know a couple hundred. hours behind his house is doing a little walk about with some family members and and stumbled into it, and I

So what we put the cat up, eventually, it's late in the day by then it's like one or two p m and mangas had gotten had gotten to smell. The weary eventually found a fresh track. That was the day of, and he had been on that track and smell that a little bit. He too, he took off down the track, but five minutes later he came back. Jake's dogs state He came back like guys. What's going on, you know like it is you don't have a quiet, to stay on it. Yet while we get to the tree hit J, dogs or their tree in barking up a storm and make us like kind of joining in on the bargain boat, more cause he's like areas, bark and all bark a few times to right. But I just can't like this

ass kind, a high like I don't know twenty feet, a twenty five and as a pre fix dog fur lotta branches in there, and you just can't get a good view. I am only seen like you are part of the tail like. If you just get the right angle, you can see his face and you just like he does can't put to you at that point, he couldn't put two and two together that what he was smell and on the track equal this cat up in this tree, right! So no matter what I did we're like I'm trying to take his head in point Up into the tree and Jake's, look at me You have tried out a thousand times. It just doesn't work erika, and so we spend whatever half an hour there and we took our so it was. The love of of a attacks is like man we invested. Like you know, I don't we start at five o clock in the morning. We walk out there to the law. Day, and I really feel that my dog was any better for it. In oz, Well, I is read: go do it again so.

two or three days later we went to run another track, and this one was very fresh, like like me, no hours prior to jake finding it. It was late in their so We get on it and Jake he's got a young dog that he's trying to train well too so Mingus kind of gets second pick and I'll sell my girls. The best way to understand it is like Mingus is probably a kinder god. as far as like his level of understanding this game Jake's eight month old, is probably unlike for fifth grade. And then he's got like a two year old. That's, like you know, towards the end, score, I got one more. That's a full on professional saw when his eight month old is running a fresh track. He wants her to. Maybe be seeing what the other dogs is more experience of, doing and doesn't want I, like mine, was a kitten garnered is run around in circles, have downplaying grab ass. You know ruining a good thing, so his First, it's an.

Basically behind with me. yes on a leash and just making sure that MRS Lily taken every track. Every footstep of that lie and put his nose. And just walk, and it was great awash because you can actually see. Sometimes you get excited and veer, before the dog tracks went, but it wouldn't take but five or six feet and he would jump back to the actual lion track I've been on a few long ones. You know a few long ones. Together, this one was like abnormally short, like from the time we caught jake's dog loose. I dont think and act Three minutes went by until you heard about the constant bar you're serious. Here I mean it was fast, so We come over the ridge and I look baggage am I gonna trade is like arya that she so we walked down: mangus nigh follow the track. All the way to maybe fifty feet of the tree

I let go the leash and just let him run in there and you can see the the cap plain as day this time. It's not quite as size, only fifteen feet up or so same thing: his dogs, interestingly enough to overcome the more experienced and the and the pro or- all over the tree. They know it's in the tree. There barca storm, the youngest one is sort of like going around. the tree do a lot of barkin like she knows it. Doesn't she supposed to do and that's where the scent ends, and it was interesting to wash You could tell where the thermals would come down just right and that cat set will come straight down to her nose, she'd seed, light up. You know, mangus again, Two three minutes into being at this tree: he's kind like lose an answer as you want to run back on the track, because that's where it was exciting what he was smelling and you just can't put two and two together still

I know jag that had he had told me like it's been, you can't do it. I've tried one thousand times, but this time the cats like more wide in the open, it's not as high in the hills so steep that you only had to take like five six seven steps back from the tree and you're almost level, this cat, so we're about that's how it works because I got to understand what he says. You can't do it. He made you can't make a dog look into a tree and see a cat. Yes, exactly. Because that's what you want, you really gets right there dislike points here in that direction. How could you miss it connect the dots, yeah yeah and, I think, He's a smelling it, he doesn't know what he's smelling again. I was trying to explain to my daughter's, unlike if you were smelling an apple pie but had never seen one and never tasted one. You dont, you don't have an image for what you're smelling. You know, you know smites no good and might be pleasurable. I dont know what it looks like well I had to try it again. So I grab had dogs had pointed at that at that lie in canada.

Looking at him, a great ally in and manner, like, it was almost like that his head kind of quivered and shook just for a second and then it just locked and then the next thing was I mean just blew my ear, draw out and just where other images like all these shit, that's worth! That's what I've been smell back I got it just is. we're very long long. Why did the ugly Ever believe what I found you about one track mine. At that point, we were, what are some jacon ire? I are around his youngest is, is kind I know for sure, but kind of a tree climber, so he's keeping a real eye on her to make sure that she doesn't get too high up into the streaks. Add some low, pretty stout low branches, so she was making it up six seven feet pretty quickly. Of course you know want wire to do that, but

it's milling around and talking and enjoying the situation is so funny because everytime I'd you'd get between mingus and that tree he'd get real annoyed and like had to jump to the side to be like nah man. I'm, like I gotta, see this, Bark at it so don't get in my line of sight on oh yeah, very it was just a very awesome. feeling as a dog owner. You know to see something like that click and to see it, see it go down and see the dog get excited and that's great man, thou, sweet, the cool thing is you got him from the pounded, nubia the eyes of all on livingston, montana shelter dog near do you are is already a thing that you can't like, like connect dog, be acount, how an alliance pounders you gotta like pickers, pick his path and life. Now I think that the owner and the handler has to do the hiding there there their prey

limited by how mercer owner train them, I think, is what I've been getting from. Most, I mean sure, there's somebody out there that tell you be better if there are just the one one one trick pony when it comes to that, but I mean certainly Jake's dog the bobcats lines. I know they're both cats, but I think that if you just spend time with them- and they can do it all- you know they they can figure out when they're you know supposed to be chasing one and as we another another. Yet how are you gonna bring go abroad? Don't doesn't cowboy coyotes dogs colorado. They run everything like colleagues in catalan, meds I answer stray run like yeah. They run la lions and candle man. Then. he said, they'll run whatever he tells them to be interested. In now,

Are you bringing their dog when we go to arkansas coon hunting with clay? Are you bringing that dog down? Yes, sir? How you get there airplane you drug it and fly it? Oh, okay, yeah! That's what splendid on. Maybe I should drive I wonder road trip before you do. Do you dragonette and fired at the bottom of the airplane, but whatever you don't even have to drag on. Lemme see, although he has your into. I guess I thought need to draw them a little bit when they're kind of wild dogs like that there's some some folks. It think there and a lot of other folks and I've dark do that now the dog is long. Is the dogs comfortable in a candle, a plane is the same as a back. Your track gives the like it is going to have you ever seen the odyssey dog and have you seen out as this dog in the back of a truck no.

I dunno what you're getting I've had him in the back of my truck. I guess it's a allow. It's a big, loud ass dog that makes a lot of noise man. He can't be you to hear him if you were in the plane trying to sleep you're not going to sleep on the airplane if their dogs underneath there, that would be a fun airplane experience, gives you gotta, think you all understand what that is the best, over how and the luckily I think that he's not. He doesn't seem to have any sort of like a separation anxiety- or you know, seems like how ball embark whatever when we're not home, and so I dunno I don't. I don't expect that. I won't expect that to happen. I've only flown a dog once and we didn't drug her hm hm, I'm looking forward to that man, thou yeah me to me too. You know we already got a title for the episode right now. Please tell me dog in the fight for all

it's a title and I'm looking forward to making that episode? Man only reason I didn't want to make it as I dunno what we'd call it. I don't know guy go ahead, good, they are also aroused by about hunting. This. Rules are the goons, That's good news! I'm glad I like track in the progress of mingled the dog. The move to kill. Can we move down to this this thing about not to power not to damage your skirl on a horse plays after that? I'm out. Ok, we're your uncle! This dude wrote this is all the more interesting guises ever written in here. Pollack has episode. It was during the covert pandemic. I remember that only goes early pandemic. We had on our beloved friend Kevin Murphy world's greatest small game hunter who had reached

they returned from mongolia, and here and doing some falconry. In mongolia- and we talk about that, We have talked about right and horses, and I got to and about how hard it is to write a horse without damaging up your scrope and for me least, and he wrote in his disguise, eroded and is the most interestingly. I've heard from the while he's a blacksmith and a horse trainer him and his wife its people to ride rope in jump on horseback, and he says that were also nature is- and I feel like I've heard this term, because member that guided rawdon knows a nature. Is l counter? Yes, yes, He hoped he bore wholesale naked and was saying how he can the wind real good, like Why no one wonders what

he never wonders what way the winds blowing psyche like just feel it naked. So this guy's a This guy has allotted insight and ride in the north. Near your skull. And he goes on to say what a lot of people wrote in to say about how, if you, if it's taken a beaten, you're like yours It is wrong yet to sit horse properly in a western saddle your, This talked under you, your pressed back into the sea you're up right, you're, not leaning, forward your knees or bent your heels down. He said as you can, you can, if you sit and right, you can I'd comfortably with parents are no pants. But he says it's: where gets inner, as he says, I still prefer a pair of bite, shorts or somethin as underwear. because when I am wearing clothes, my screen,

I'm just kind of relaxes expect support Then he goes on to say this would certainly never occurred to me before he's. Enough time, nude around the farm in iran, the woods, the he claims that his testicles have retained. The natural ability which ETA nose like if you lose it, but he he retains. The natural ability to retract and firm up in times of physical activity like one under chop and wood or hutton. Just add this device stretching routine they hold. I'm gonna limber am tighten up, so he's say, and most fellows like us who run around like suckers, were under close all time. That you're losing your ability to. Act and firm, but that he

has retained the ability to retract and firm up then has nothing to do with the fact that is not so cold. he's like. I retain the ability to firm up in cold water, so my advice, as he says the dude, I would even have to I like this guy a bunch I don't want to seem like in any way in any way like hair like I would go, hang out with this guy my advice, unless you're gonna spend a lot of time nude, exercising the muscles that retract your boys up india or pelvis like a samurai where something first support and learn sit properly in the saddle, so he said. a binary decision to be made here. Go nude enough.

Did the boys learn where it arrived on their own or sit right. Sire, I met a decision, a matter of a pivot point as a writer this and I'm the suggests. That the overwhelming majority of people have learned to sit right and skipped than you know yeah go at dawn virtually verge. Really everyone, the icy riding nowadays as taken these second choice, we go down to hunt coon's of clay. We're gonna be riding around our meals and yadda. Yadda still wants you to be surprised if you see some things you may we don't want to see why? Why is this? Do you gonna do man? I just

think of all their like pasty, white tran. Parent old, rapture scheme. That has never seen the light of day. really reinforces the fact. People just learned how to sit right. We have of sure. Cal here you know what I'm gonna do I want to move into something for the cows gonna talk about, but I want to break up Jim half of fingers responsibilities Jim, do mine tell everybody what you're telling me about the us? Why the jaguar and all that just and are you be to share those images, so people can go see him

yeah. The images are actually embedded in the scientific paper, and I would just sent this morning this paper, and it was just a short note, and it has a series of photos. Nighttime photos from a trail cam, that's next to a wall catchment in northern waters Mala were of theirs ass, lots and jaguars ball in the head. It is of a jaguar coming into the water taken a drink and then going back off into the darkness, a little while later at taper comes by breaks out of the water in the jail, Don't leave it alone, taper lee and then a little ass light comes in start drinking. The jaguar pounces outer darkness kills, the jagged kills the ocelot and drag the ocelot off, and Scientific paper has images embedded in the paper itself within them some note that I haven't followed. Yet that says that their supplemental information would usually meters more information somewhere online but alive, Those I drink papers are our you've gotta subscribe to the journal to get into it is not always open access. I reject yet whether those images are available in sending the paper, and we can see that that's available to public. Why

think he would kill why not kill the tape ear, but he would kill the ocelot gathers the temperature kind of big, but that part of their that part of their diet down there in the jungle why he would kill an oslo. That's what makes it so bizarre! That's what makes it so noteworthy that you open a scientific papers and note it just is not really a competitor. Does range well. I don't do we know you're sure, just from those pictures, if the thing disappeared into the darkness, that it was necessarily just sitting there that whole time period, maybe it was, for a walk about. While the tape here was there and is happening back when ocelot showed up I bet it is yeah. That's a good point. Is there like any evidence that they do the same thing, that wolves do with coyotes and just kill them to kill them like they're? Just I dont think that a lot of evidence of cats doing that, because their more solitary animals just living in the jungle to do their own thing. So it's pretty strange. Hey. Do you think jim right now at this, like very second, do you think that

are: is a jaguar in the? U s right now today. No, I don't I dont know we normally have had one does not is the same one with normally had want, but I haven't heard since before we talk last time. It has been a year since I've heard a fresh information, so I don't really know. now so there might not be a bad. I care or do you root for jaguars or root against jaguars. So we have we had that conversation. I I root for the same thing you do that they continue to be able to come up and visit and hang out in these mountain islands and southeastern arizona. There was some talk and there's. we as a parliament And moving up to the ponderosa pine high elevation forest in central arizona, and that doesn't make any sense to me: oh yeah, I got it I got white wine. I know gaudy. Why doesn't it make any sense, although there That was really beyond the range of the or a jaguar habitats. Others like there's two hundred are over

A thousand jaguars rather reigned in central america and and the Mozart as the epicenter of jaguars and they came up and they they can visited arizona, new mexico. They came up in a little farther than that in prehistoric times, like the pleistocene, but this in new mexico, the northern fringe of their habitat, and they should be able to do what what animals do at the northern fringe come up and visit and colonize and stay, but this really isn't the core of their habitat and to take them from other populations like northern mexico and putting them up into what is really not good jaguar habitat. A real dry pond it a pine forests is not ideal jaguar habitat. Even though two hundred years ago we have some evidence of a moving through there. So I tried to re there trying to re, establish a population in a place where you feel it would be dubious at best to say that they were that they had a breeding population.

yet. We know a lot about what kind of habitat jaguar do really well on and they do the best in those more tropical habitats, and then they do ok in in various like northern mexico, in the mountains and the sky, island and selfish arizona, central arizona, we're just really areas really move through an end like we talked about last time you look at the native american cultures in the southwest in arizona mexico. The jaguar wasn't part of their their culture, little have motif. They didn't revere. That war, and that's really the case in central america, where they were really common and right and centre of their history listen man. I love, I mean you know we ve talked about this, for I love those things I think it will be. You know, pretty great to be walking through the woods and there's one standing there you that book borderland jaguars? Did you go yeah yeah yeah, though I liked that book. I liked that, but that's got a good documentation of these jaguars and it's northern end of their habitat, yep, alright, cal

we really touch on islamic. This dude wrote in discover interesting guy, wrote it about possession limits and he's not the first person to write it about possession limits are just so. People are saying what we're talkin, which opposition limits be in hunting, you'll, quite often see that you're encounter a species where you have a what's called a daily bag limit, and this goes fishing. This goes for hunting for our case, let's say that we're we're up fishing, let's say you go somewhere and I have a daily bag limit of five wala. Ok, that means in a day and a given day, you're allowed to catch and retain five warlike you'll. Often, see tat down to that. A possession limit would be typically. it's very calm and see a possession limit be to daily bag limits. What that would mean is less say your camp out, ok

and your you got a fish camp set up you're at the river access. You got your camper trailer there and you've been there for a couple of Is there saying that you could have in your cooler or in your camp to bag limits That doesn't mean that our and your bow in your life will you have two bag limits, but, like you went out caught five on saturday, you went out. Caught five on sunday, their cruel with haven't saturday and sundays is daily bag limits in your possession, and this this system starts to get really complicated for people because a lot of times it. Why is it being like? Ok does that mean that I can have it in my freezer at home, where If I have it where I've already turned it into jerky or sausage that count as my limit, this gather and brought up a really interesting twist on this question of how possession limits work where he says he this due from illinois rights in he says, for example,.

Illinois has an early goose season in september, but there our two zones with different limits the north zone has I've goose daily limit in fifteen, who is possession limit so there you can have three daily bag limits, the south zone has a two goose daily limit and six goose possession limit he then goes on to ass long ass. I live in the south zone, but hunt three days in the north zone and bring home eight geese. Am I making the laws since I have to over the possession limit or another scenario. I live in the north zone and have twelve- in my freezer from the early season, then an art over the regular waterfall season starts in the possession limit changes to nine am I. then violating the law can take us one away this. This is a great great topic and

it. You really doesn't get confusing as long as you keep in mind. Hunting as a management tool, Fishing is a management tool and your bag limits and possession limits change by state. By zone by region and by and by fish free and flyaway such as the north south zone. That this fellow rodion with an montana right, we have a pacific fly away in a central flyaway that you can hunt without leaving the state, and it gets really interesting when you start looking at fisheries as well a great example: red is year, your bucket biology examples of taking lets a perch and dumping them in to new ponds, so

There is an example here, instead of montana, where you can have two bodies of water, same highway? One has a daily possession limit or I'm sorry daily bag limit. You know your daily take of perch. Ah, the possession limit is three times the daily. Take it to a possession in montana. Is your possession of that species in total. So it means what you have on you, what you have at your camp, whatever that can't may be, and whatever you have at your home. It doesn't the example that dude rodion we have is hilarious cause he threw some that and even thought of what

They will. What? If I have a mounted bird on my wall like it's a bit Don't worry it's a great question. It is a great question. I hadn't thought of in the state of montana did doesn't saying. bout taxidermy in it does in the fact that, if you are going to transfer a bird to a tax at air must, with the state that is to be a but possession limit is anything canned smoked. It implies. Whatever state that meat is am if it is the species in question it pertains to your possession limit. So to finish with this example, a further down the same highway. Into a new drainage where They have somebody has transplanted those perch illegally into this other fishery, where they do not want that,

search. There is no daily women on perch and there is no daily possession limit on perch. So. What the hell does a game. Warden do them, especially if Steve's fishing, the. a reservoir where there is a We limit and a possession limit- and I were stop in sea steve on my way home, which would make sense because it the same highway right, but I have a cooler full, fish that are totally legal. I just to be passing through a zone. Where had I been fishing and catching in that zone it would then be illegal. I have to call a game or non this add each other. They laughed equally, because the worry us can really. run rampant, but the way

he had always comes down to a game: Morton's discretion. those possession limits? The definition of possession is different in every state, so I was looking at an example. This couple, a guys in texas, got caught with for I can't even remember now, like seven times the daily or seven times the possession limit the legal possession limit for groggy a ton of groggy very illegal. But if you read, the law in taxes, the busy the weather, the possession limit is written in texas. If you have a permanent camp as in a real the cabin you live at and can get mail at your possession Anything you like you store at that place does not count towards your possession limit, but if your buddy is right,

right next to your cabin, where you get your mail and therein camper trailer. That they do not get their mail at the fish that they bring back to their camp or trailer counts against their possession limit, so to me. That's almost like an odd sword, you're your kind of getting into the haves and have nots their words, like all of you can afford to have a house on the way, the cabin, not a house, blocks from the lake. We're more than likely to be able to retain a hell of a lot more fish just because you don't have to spend time and travel to get the fish to the place where they don't count against your possession limit, and I don't think limit legged. Do yes go out our. I saw another wrinkle into this and I know we're like that. Maybe you have a final. Hopefully you have like an answer because we're like it's like a question, a question because

These are all things that too, because they have Jim speak to this too. I feel it These are things that are, are well meaning laws that are so confusing that it's like setting people up for failure, because you can't figure out how to be compliant. Like you call, you brought up Let's say you go get a bunch of geese and you make sausage yeah. I mean So now you have a bunch of goose sausage sticks how do you figure out like eastern use, you save one beggar, goo sausage sticks and then good season starts up. How are you like. Ok, I need a cow for this being like what is this portions of I've geese this. Like a guy, it is worth it I feel, is important, when do situation, where you're kind of like probably why you read about people getting busted for this stuff unless they're like big time poachers, because

roll into someone's house dismantle their freezers start trying to reconstruct their last year of activities and in that better, the answer, though, is documentation, and in this day and age it is so easy ted to document sword you know you just got a label, your staff and you do need to be accountable for it by. You're exactly right. Like a bag of jerky, I turn a lot of meat into jerky last year. It was, it was big game, so it's easy to date to keep track of, but yeah If, if game wardens came into the house and grab that baggage, jerky and decided to start doing dna analysis on it. You know they're gonna, have a single bag that as an Elk from idaho, a mule dear from idaho coups dear from mexico, you know and for coots,

you know all back. Testing costs money. So what's was and result gonna be right, sir, in water, Fell terms, canada geese, Montana right now are like a plague I have never seen so many birds in my entire life. It is unbelievable, and but you know if, if you know big goose spreads lots of decoys are big investment and I just started- can do the math on if you really want to get in involved in goose hunting and have all the decoys and be compliant with the law as it's written in order for you to just and heart saturday and sunday, and shoot limits of geese you have to.

I mean every licensed hunter in your household has to eat six canada geese per week and during monday, through friday, six canada, if you want, if you want to keep at it here or I'm sorry, tam right so yeah, ten, ten canada geese per week per licensed hunter. If you want to keep at it and I'm gonna have a reserve beyond that, sir. We want time ass, a state troop in Alaska. You don't have gay Morton's or troopers, but we ask but we're trying to understand possession limits. in how it works there and Let's say you have less haven't- have official fish at this fish you ever freezer and your curious, ok, how a bit possession limit is to daily bag limits dummy you're allowed to have four halibut in your possession. The way

one when we are trying to get clarity on how this work. We spoke to troopers, who said that the minute its processed for consumption, It no longer is in your possession limit, meaning if you go, if you get to halibut in you, take him home and you fillet those halibut, and portion them in vaccine lemon freezer. There no law. In your possession. then it's just a matter of that your daily bag limits to exceed how many days you ve been at your cabin meaning, if your cabin five days, you could theoretically freeze ten halibut. You better not have twelve, because you has meant that many days to have accumulated in what we do

about. Ok, I like what about something that you're not cleaning like, let's say, you're talking about shrimp. Ok, you catch shrimp. and you just freeze the tails beyond the water, with just shrimp tales cause, you allowed three courts a shrimp tales, so I have done it. I haven't process at all, I did is freezing and they said it That's how you process it. If that's you freeze it for later consumption. We would regard that as being processed. So when I just throw my whole poach dear straight into that bale freezer, I got good job. If that's how you like to eat it later. Yes, I say of the gods that way, this is how I cook this is how I come here. another wrinkle right, my girlfriend shot for geese and brought for diesel. She doesn't hurt,

the geese and her freezer. She puts them in my freezer, so those four geese are labelled her information and but they're there at my residence, where I get my mail with my geese that, because of the overlap, I have labeled with my information well right, and this is like paranoia. Basically, I very few, but I feel like that. Will I feel, like a warden, would respect that system. They, I think they would as long as they were not looking tab. find something else. I guess I think you know as most these words that you tie. With right. It's like We have no, reason to doubt you until we do and then.

if we're gonna make a case where we're gonna make sure that we make the whole case. Essentially Yeah you're a good way to look at us. Our go yeah I'll go ahead I was point out. I was going to point out a helpful way to look at this kind of stuff We have a friend county in your friendly, where the two who used to he's a lawyer than he used to represent the wyoming being he's too represent wyoming as their had attorney the fishing and department, and here we are top all these arcane release like little known rules in ways that seems like could get in trouble we got on the subject of of bartering in selling wild game. Ok, it's alive, the barter and trade with wild game like you can't use it like currency right, so it would be illegal fur. Someone under you to go to the guy that changes, your oil and he's.

Guy. I don't worry about a man pappy just make sure to drop me by a couple wall. I place next week at your technically breaking the law because bartering and trading with wild game, but this attack, when invited me to go and look at where yours go look. where you actual We see that in forcemeat tool applied to people. He said all that you'll only find it get applied in places where you have someone who is in a real real bad position and you'll find that a ward and will then add on every possible thing he can add on. So that way you start playing down you. A mile and a shit to deplete through any goes. That's

because that's the only situations rice sea, like this bartering and trading thing, come up when it's someone who's done like some really bad stuff and they're gone we were in there being like okay, three counts of this. We're going to add counts of this. We're going to add, counts of that, but it just whines. The vienna on it. lines have been awaited is lay it on heavy when some, one really has a common and in their cannon need to read, because a lot of these matters, get so many wildlife via violations, I spread all over all the new sources inevitably people or in the no and people who are just being exposed this stuff. For the first time the same conclusion. Right say that is a reprehensible crime. I can't believe they got away so easy, The reality is a lot of time that that is exactly what the law provides for its equal. That, if you look at

that is, a maximum allowable fine of young five hundred dollars a thousand dollars two hundred fifty dollars- and it's like this, so that's. Why when it's time to nail somebody it's like stack em up because If they get out of some of it is just as an almost not even worth our time type a thing. So it's I called I call the warden the other day. because we are having a hard time. We are arguing a lot about a law that we can figure what it meant and. I got to the point where I decided it wasn't just me like, like I felt that didn't make sense and when I got him on the phone and invited him to go, read it. He read it in those kind of funny because he read it and he's kind like her yeah. You know

but then was able to solve it. For me, like he saw something that I didn't see, but It was an interesting interaction to have with someone to be confused. about the law, call up the river. Glad that you called they respectively, if you're trying to sort it out and then it wasn't like you, dumb ass. It was like. Oh I see where you're confused here. Let's look through it consider this and that way: better interaction to have than to wait till later and get in trouble and then You like, but it is confusing because at that point it's like you, probably she declared up cleared up the union great great example read. I called the region, three montana fish and game office the other day talking about accessing some ground that we would follow.

this late seed obedient that we have gone on chronic wasting disease mitigation deal and wharton was Super our foreign and we'll talk he's. now, remember Monti a stream access law does not provide for big game honey. It provides for recreation and Fishing, so if you want to access that spot, you better flow to it, or drag canoe with you. So I can legally regular canoe upstream power of the canoe upstream and have this situation. Were I've got a boat with me, so I haven't exactly just walked the The high water mark line that would make it more legal

and I said, as was a year, I am familiar with this. I understand it, but you know this just. It is not right this like law is designed to make your life living. How right and is it also- and I said well being in the state of montana no matter what season it is honey season or not it's one hundred bucks legal, too area firearm? anywhere. I want on public land. Under the high water mark, so high, can it be legal too again under the high water mark with a rifle I could be wearing orange or not, and just like well, I don't have the intention to hunt game. I know other people around here somewhere in orange to be safe, and I, like my rifle with me, I had a change of mind decided to hunt

I've been working away in a cheerful may work under way, but not on the way out with you. But you want to go to court. Does my dear egg in your boat and what's recreation yet lake, it seems pretty obvious what you're trying to accomplish so, like fact that you're like oh, but I have a boat with me I mean, I know the game. Warden say that's the way to cover your ass, but it doesn't seem well right. You could have the is just to get some odd. odd thing, but there's a lot of that out there, and it's like you, want to take the montana stream access law to court and try to get to a specific provision put in for big game hunting Will be where you could possibly risk you screwed up for everybody, some out somewhere.

They try to make laws black and white, but reality is there's just a whole bunch agree in between. as the foreign parts to pick a man. I had another interaction I will move on. Earth is by another interaction with the warden, where I was looking at a spot on a map and I was like I'd. Its her to me that a fellow would be able to go do a certain activity there that just seemed like he shouldn't be able to, and I said said man. I keep looking at this It just seems to me, like you'd, be able to do acts there. and he was vital meta he's like why it seemed not write to you like was ass he wanted me to entertain this to myself and see if there was something there or not read. The bees like aha, I found a secret. You know he was kind of like

inviting you to use some discretion try to view a light. Can I get away with something that maybe feels a little funny? You know what does not forces. Yeah, do you hear me? I want to mention to you in its interest in you to call a thing. Is you you guys have, because actually you guys have had babies at your house right correct too. and then you tired, I did you. Try. Luman babies like like brooding babies, yard not dislike baby polished. Did you use that you burn them into the water.

I trying to think now, both times we had ah we're looking at an image here of a the blow up a bathtub that babies are burden into sometimes both times we had those setups. I believe in no, I won't say baltimore just on the bed. I think that my wife actually found it to relaxing and it took her out of that mode of get baby out. and took her into more out of jail mode in nasa's didn't happen in the water. Yeah, that's it or, as it is, dude wrote in that his I was having a baby at home and a hand little kitty pool. They filled up with water and he took it sylvie, circulate her out of his kitchen and set the slovene circulated near to keep it at the right. Tell very get the richest witches genius

like a sou red baby. it just means next time don't take baths, often, but the next time I do. I mean the art we have like a porcelain, clawfoot her. You know, and I boy you start off nice and cozy, and then and you know he read a half a chapter and it's kind of a kind of a tepid bath and not so much fun anymore. So this might be a thing. Little miss whirlpool manny, take you said that soon v thing like one or two and jump- and there has been a great man I got the rocard dishonor guy wrote in Haiti the new survival, but the wilderness ilsa survival but anywhere and is trip and great smoky national park? What his girlfriend five day, backpack and track and they ran in all these, whether problems and the weather got all bad. Nobody got all cold and it was

It turned into a kind of an unexpected survival situation, any road and to say that he used the he actually burned. The book. In a word great. He broke, but he said a leg, but he had already read all the pages that was all wet on the rim, but he found dry in the middle and burned the book and save the day. it deserves, and now he does as a new book, I think there are definite I like that, his own discretion to when he says layer that- evening out these all wet began rain then start rainbow. thirty hours. Not only was arranging the air seem to be so thick with moisture. I could almost drink and breathe. At the same time,. that line caught my eye too man he's got he's like a he's. A wordsmith he's like a little bit of a writer he's ported on heavy I'll admit I was getting skeptical after awhile, then I saw the picture of the book and I believe him

their boats that book spending Oh man but I feel that we should. I gotta try to figure it out remember to send, as do named, dylan at all mohammed brass go to is due to new book to replace a book he had to burn up. Besides no one, books come in handy. You know what I mean, yeah boy, that- and this is exactly what that book was written for exactly what this guy ran into like just for kind of a yeah, I don't want to say mundane, but like a just a little, regular outing knock some crazy big adventure knocking them back. There was a three hour tour There's there's nothing I want to get into that. If it had been Jim, have affairs can swing back in forests Chris Chris. He'll ridge powder. is easy is better. These comes on the show quite a bit here work on a fine art project,

he's been taken, pictures of fucked up all dear stance, We ve been talking about how we want to do. Coffee table book, a fine art coffee table book called fucked up all dear stance, it's good! b we created a email, sick, he's only got like he's, got six or seven that are brook worthy, but to really do a good book there. Can sell next christmas to really do a good, We need, like fifty great photos, we're going to start a crowd source chris skills pounders the photo editor so he's gonna primary photography. He'll probably have more pictures than else, but if you do a picture in sit utilised, her. Send your pictures in your picture might make the finer coffee table book.

So we made an email, it's fucked up, oh dear stance,. At the mediator dot com. So in your pictures, crystal get em we're conch. Do for permissions at everything and you gotta find the oldest janky. It's like we're talking about the kind of old stands that like look real hazardous to get into in a log like fifty years ago, someone nailed a tarp up, and it's just fraid blown in the wind like the worst, all dear stand, you know about, it can be, We stand ground by whatever send it Sure and chris might need to advise you on how to get the right picture is remember. This is not this isn't dear camp here. this is like a hat. It says you know I'd wake up grumpy this morning, a letter sleep, it's not like that kind of stuff. It's like Fine art, its fine art photos, no people, fine art photographs

fucked up, all dear stance, so send you're. Never thinking about gettin has done with your brand new iphone. Twelve pro don't bother me No, you! Maybe you cannot, even though their good, maybe maybe. There's only under the aim the email is set up, fucked up old. Dear sir, And at the meteor dotcom send a man. Eventually, crystal start digging around in there will know, if I you, you ever gonna, make a book and we're gonna have a b for next christmas. Were you by a fine, our coffee table, but under that title, that's the title. The book it's already been decided. Can run out idiotic, I was just going to ask: do you have I I feel like we are going to be inundated, it's going to be a thick book them, yeah. They can in any way more than fifty pictures. I mean Chris alone

to sign the little jogger property there? He and I hunted together this year in wisconsin. I think he got to take pictures of six different very far. oh dear stands, ass white ass, the sixties, talkin about any gap. We had another one. We might have a guy noted very fact. Apple dear stands. The narrow it down- and I know I've got enough- I know of two, that we are you why? Why that I think that would be that you know where you know high contenders, further book we eat We found just a sectional ladder in pennsylvania section of a ladder, stand where the stand was gone, but had snore law, and so this kind of like this low. It look like a real metaphor, like half of a ladder standing out in the woods, and he took a picture that says he wasn't really feel in it, but it you could make the book. I don't think it's the cover photo, but it could make the book could be

back over it. We're gonna caption we're gonna write captions for all the fine art photography for me. If there is an interesting thing that goes, I what these old dears and because, when there are only like kind of old, like someone just sat in them in the last five years- and you look at it and you can tell that has been retired, you look at it like I was somewhat, would take that thing down at such an ice or what like another ten years, fifteen years goes by, they become are now you are buying in you have like alone little nostalgia for for it takes the man. The last time I was in pennsylvania, looked at my old wood stand. It was just like part of the earth. It was sad. You know. and menus for years as there's a genre of old man. Type hunting camp painting where it's like Oh, oh dear, stand a fucked up old, dear stand and there's a big box stand by.

That's a good genre of art. And you supposed to look at and be like- oh man, you know cause you're, probably dead down. Here's a giant bought by his dear stand so help. there. If you can folks and working people saw how it goes. And enrich pounder will eventually get in there. reach out in cuba advice about how to make it more fine art if it's, if it's not, if it's not fine art in its morlock kitsch hill, I hope you steer it into fine art, so keep your eyes peeled! That's! What the we get the title, and then you have to do it of that: yeah well Our original title was Chris, want to call it old, fucked up all dear stance that we cut one of the old. We caught one of out just to simplify the title bilbil. I thought Jim to tell me about why we what you said in that

I thought was so interesting that I want you to come out and tell us more about it. I wrote an article four dear drowning magazine last year and specifically one human health and and lead bullet fragments in and shot pellets in in game meat. And I started getting interested in that because it I felt like there were a lot of peer reviewed scientific papers. A lot of magazine articles, a lot of banter about the dangers of using let bulletin and lead shot to human health specifically and the more I looked into it. more into the science itself. The more confusing it was. It doesn't look like that. The science was there to support some of the statements that I had seen and so There's a there's a lot of reasons why you might want to switch to non led bullet for sure. There's there there's impacts just invade

those were beginning in video, rafters and and bird sick populations. There could be some population effect, certainly condors. Absolutely a population level effect as an endangered species in and letters is really a serious conservation issue or their recovery, but also you can think about what about a hunter image when someone's shown this bald eagle, that's getting sick from some bullet fragments, a garden and a gut pile, and some people talked about the threat of litigation. If hunters don't take charge of this issue and of switching to non lead, bullets, there's gonna be litigation is going to force it and and not on their terms. It's always a lot of reasons why we can talk about the value.

Lead, bulls and not levels, but one of those topics are sub topics. Is human health in and I think there's this is a case where the site is always try to keep their advocacy out of science and just report their sides, and just you good, solid research, but it's difficult in some cases it. It seemed to me, like someone's advocacy, for switching having hundreds switch from blood bulls. Do not lead. Bullets was really kind of driving some of their research results, and so it's there's nothing rolled out because he, but we should have science driving the advocacy. We should have good sides and that we should advocate for what's right, isn't that brushing jam like when they would be When you, when you read when you see that the biologists paper that is, I here, are the facts, And there is no you there's no biased perceived. There's no advocacy is so so refreshing

yet. It is a great deal of good science and you can advocate for four. What's right, but alongside people have this end game and that advocacy answer sites of the a scientific paper they'll have the results of what the result fun and then the last birthday more generally, like discussion or management applications. there, you have a little more latitude and, and I was seeing papers were people would talk about lead in a dangerous to human health, and it certainly is with no match for for thousands of years, but they site, medical literature that talks about wed in elevated blood lead levels, but from other sources people aren't talking about actual how dangerous is it to take bullet fragments in and adjust bullet fragments once in a while or lead pellets are talking about jobs are talking about lead, gasoline and they're saying we got the lead out of paint. We got the let out a gasoline. Why wouldn't

yet the let out a bullets, but what's really important, the distinction is really important. Is that there's different forms of lead and the metallic lad that we used for bullet is different than the lead that you find in in paint in the lead that you find a ghastly in the lead. You find a lot of other things that metallic led actually is, is not very easily absorbed in your thy justice system or through your skin, but there's a whole bunch of other led some soluble organic leadpot compounds that do absorbed through your skin rapidly. They do absorbed through your lung tissue of its aerosol or view just it. They go into your bloodstream, pretty quick, but those are different than lead. Bullets led the talent let those organic led compounds are found in in like dry,

wires for varnish they're used sometimes in plastic, molds to to kind of help set the the mold therein and clutch pads and brake pads. We we in in two thousand and nine there was seven hundred thousand metric tons of lead mined in the year this alone. There is a lot of lead for a lot of things now amy should batteries are big things, but for the whole matter of are also organic, led compounds which are used in all kinds of different things in its chemical, In it's those organic compounds that are really easily absorbed in the skin, so that's the lead that we need to make sure we reduce our exposure to the metallic lead. It's really not that easy to get your blood levels, elevated, just from adjusting metallic led. Why is a really big difference, but Ok, what is it difference between a candour who is getting it from metallic lead in a human like wise In fact him, but it doesn't affect us

a burden mammal different, so mammals is not really an issue. We don't you see you don't hear about lead poisoning so much in in wildlife and mammals and in are wild creatures, but birds have a gizzard, and so birds and birds also will take little pieces of grit and sand and swallow it with their food with their seeds and then that muscular gizzard grinds and grinds and grinds, and so when they ingest lead pellets or lead fragments from a bullet that grinding out really agitates that and kind of grind some of that metallic out. So the the bird digestive system is different than a mammal digestive system and there's also there's also differences in species too, because the condors really susceptible to lead. Poisoning the turkey vulture they,

most can't kill it with lead poisoning they ve taken captive, turkey, vultures and just fed it led constantly and after light six months, they killed him until new crops and then don't see any evidence of our problems would lead poisoning. So there is also species differences within the similar species, but the big differences, the bird digestive system and a mammal digestive system was way different humans or pass a meal through their hold our justice system and twenty four to thirty. Two hours and it always spent but for five hours in the stomach and the acidic stomach turn you think about ingesting a little piece of metallic lead, which is not very soluble and and doesn't go into budgetary very easily and its sitting for five hours in the stomach and it's out of the digestive system. in a day or two there's not a lot of time for them that metal to actually be absorbed through tissue. Can you what can you walk people through? You know no, you weren't via from a policy standpoint, but but can you walk people through

how it came to be that waterfowl hunting made Switch like I'm leaving the in the late seventies early eighties, like what did they were addressing a real problem. In your view, what one they banned led for waterfowl and how are the ducks getting hurt by it led we european water fund. I wasn't involvement at all, but but from what I read in talk, no people there, some people. I know they were involved in all that the dutch were showing up. lead, poisoning and integrated, takes couple weeks to kill bird and so insert along at the long process, really suffer. But as me understanding that was litigation anchored to them, About legal act and in protection, but about legal that were on the endangered species listed the time in their litigation, because he's bald eagles were showing up after eating ducks join up with lead poisoning

I rise, so it wasn't a duck population issue. There is a small percentage of the population that was affected. It was, I think, this nexus with endangered species act involve eagles. That's why I understand, if not people at work all that yeah. You know I have a couple times in my life: The letter was an wyoming. Gonna have a most recently actually did find. Steel shot in a ducks gizzard, where that dock in picking up grit had managed to pick up incomes, steel showers, totally safe for the bird boy old days that would have been you know, led can can you Can you are people, through the difference when you say like that it leads bird mortality and in population level like like talk about that distinct Your vehicle should kit right man, that's the that's the big thing people talk about,

the effects of lead on wildlife in it. They tend to just put it all in this big cauldron and cannot talk about it. But it's a really complex issue. You need to talk separately about about individual birds dying, and we know that that eagles in hawks and endemic condors will get at bullet fragments and they will die from lead poisoning. So certainly we know the effects on individuals, but then the people said or is this really is a population level and I myself used to say, was not a population level effect. So we're talking about individuals, but we don't really know of it was a popular. If, if we were having population level effect on things,

the golden eagles. We don't do annual surveys, we don't. We don't really have a lot of good data to know how lead might be affecting golden eagles. I suspect there might be some valley where a lot of people rabbit, hunt or a lot of people. Coil, hot and golden eagles might be picking up some lead and it might be a local issue in some places. But I've stopped saying it's not a population level effect simply because I don't think we have enough data to to make a blanket statement like that But I will frequently say is this: is this such an issue with raptors and wild birds that every hunter needs a switch in short order to non lead bullets? Is this? Is this a conservation issue that serious enough? That requires our intervention to to rights on wrong? And I think that's, I think, that's a good question and a lot of people aren't talking specifically about that, but I like to separate the effects of the individual, which know we know absolutely they they die if they get too much. Let the effects of population. Does this really

at the conservation level issue that people in in our profession need to be fixing or is it more of a local thing that happens at a low level and it's just kind of absorbed into the natural mortality. I mean I was my cars all the time. I was once in a while pick up some blood and die, so this is of great importance that we need to actually act and and get people to switch and, and I'm not an advocate of of not switching. I'm not an advocate of switching within the next couple of years. I I I my family we've switched about ten years ago and I shoot nothing, but all that all copper- all copper rifle bullets will over rifle hunting, and I do that because I liked the clean wound channel. If you get off and you hit into a muscle group, you've got with a copper bullet. You've got a little hole through the most of the group and

and I like the accuracy, and I liked the how clean it shoot in and it's really kind of meat loss issue with me using copper bullets, but everybody really has to make their up their own mind. If they're, if they're concerned that their bullet might might kill a raptor on their property or somewhere out there, they may choose a switch. That may be enough for them, but I think the conversation has the center around impacts, individuals, impact to populations to the level, as a professional lead to take action and fix something, that's broken when you talking about human health separately, but we also need to talk about the impact, the hunter image. That's a real issue that that we should talk about, and then some people claim that litigations coming down the road. If we don't do something, though it's such a it's such a multi, faceted topic that when you throw it all in together, it gets it gets really confusing

It's funny because it's it's sarka abroad or I would like to see just more data. You know, big game is an interesting one, and- and this is a topic that is a really good topic- it so special you want to have that individual versus population of fact, and then you can kind of bringing together at the caliph for candour words like well enough Individual loss on such a small population is a population level, a fact, and you could get there's only of where an individual effects depopulation. You now say it's a great topic. My myself like having not like seriously pursued upland birds for a long time. This year I mean I saw more wounded animals and I have in the last fifteen years this year and they were all upland birds.

like wild roosters getting shot, and we just could not find the things hunt in south coda. We hunted you know probably get three and a half for our walk on a big chunk of public access ground and I found. ray dad roosters out there in on different levels, a d composition, but just You know the ranger hungarian partridge with one little leg leg hanging as they. Fly a mile off into the distance and is not being able, recover those animals that is, where the. You are an endless blight early. montana. You can hit like those After migrations, blue october, there are so many raptors around and for me. I just I knew there were

other predators out there with her eyes on that crippled bird at some point in time and In the mammals you don't need to worry about, but those raptors, especially when you get a migration coming through, if there's a lot of wounded birds in an area they're, certainly picking those up, but there they're going to get sick from that. It's all about the nuance. It's all about well really how many of those animals are out and available for, after the see him in and actually get consumed, hungry after their in the area, what percent of the rapporteur population as is being affected? They they just in the course of doing different research projects on an hawks and and and goals. They ve drawn blood samples every time they capture an eagle and then analyzes for blood to see their pick it up, and they ve documented that during the hunting season that that raptor blood levels, that the lead levels in the blood go up during honey season and then they drop off after the hunting season. Are you kidding, I ve shown hundred areas and none

There is in short differences and let exposure, and so there is no doubt that raptors are getting bird just exactly that way, and their blood lead levels are elevated. The conversation I think should send around it is that causing morbidity or mortality. Is that impacting them in such a way that it some it's such a serious issue that that something he owed dramatic needs to be done. When we talk about advocating all hunter switching to to not let em? For me it matters because I want to know what I'm killing The population level argument goes out the window, because I just want to know what I killed and so then, again, like ok, we'll one led bullet through now carcass nazi hidden, we'll back in theirs bunch led fragments and in the paunch and that's what's left out there? What's the effect how much are you killing with that view? as a season upland bird hunting, and you have you know these,

it smaller meals out there. probably more likely to contain lead then a well placed shot, in my opinion, on a on a big game, animal and and that stuff just was constantly going through. My head had this season, but if you walk for strand by wire fence long enough you're, going to see raptor deaths on that for strand barbed wire fence, wheel lines, power lines and these birds are are. Are Haven't we dying from a lot of man made stuff out there and we still have them yet? Is this or gets this word? Is subject gets like hard for me to sort out is that On one hand, I see places where people within the industry.

Get really uneasy when people start having the conversation that we're having right now, because they would, they would prefer that no one talk about it. Because I eat know our like a taboo subject, because your pointing out some kind of problem with how everybody does sayings better just shut up about it. We're gonna get regulations We don't want, like you hear that from people on the other hand, and I and I and that gets my hackles up a little bit like this sort of idea that you need to sensor right conversations about trying to find out. information and in put a plan to gather and have an open discussion about something like I think, that's important. Do that, on the other hand, led works really well, let us inexpensive lead as widely available.

A lot of a lot of non led ammunition is is like limited in abundance. It can be very expensive as, like. I don't want to see. that love like that kind of onerous, I don't want to see that kind of onerous regulations put in on people and having but need to spend more money, have ammunition, be more limited. But I also realise that we're gonna have to probably talk about this stuff and figure out things we can do. In order a head off getting forced into a place where you going to wind up in just that situation, like you did certain areas that will, I think now pretty soon all of california, where just like you're not allowed to use led ban. Also. In july of night, twenty nineteen from July, twenty nine turned all of california has not learnt. so we're procured and I have to like, as a community start market about it start vacant it in

hopefully land somewhere, where were the driver, see how we're going to proceed less like your san, We lose our seat at the table and in in land a place where we could have done a lot better. Had we been a little more proactive about it, I don't know I don't know the answer, man, my indian about all these complex about this whole complex topic. My opinions are kind of all over the map. I'm because I see all of like you're just say. I see all of the pro in the cards in and out on one side or the other when it comes specifically to human health, as I wrote the article about human health, I think there's people using human health as a hammer, because that there and I've heard people tell me that is very effective. One person told me at the wallet society in Albuquerque had a symposium on on wildlife and and led in one guy at the break, told me sometimes he says what's most effective

We saw the degradation of the deer jack stations, especially if there's a wifi girlfriend there. We start talking to her about. How do you know that you're, your husband, your boyfriend, poisoning you with lad, you know me and they and their land I ain't saying that that is really the most effective way, because I guarantee you that guy's not using led next year so use, the human health. As a as an exaggeration for the true risk that it provides the humans, that's what I I really have a problem with this other stuff, about the individual versus population and and pending litigation and the did your hunters. I just I I'd see all that stuff and iron work through it. All myself in where I stand, and all that Oh yeah jimmied. All I know is that we talk about. I know we drifted from it a little bit but sherman I've seen em. I seen people like I've seen raptor people switch and and want to talk about human health, because

their driving at something with rafters. I think one of the most like weirdest versions, I've seen this is there's. This group has always been opposed to wildlife markets through having hey day with covert? Were there like we always knew that you so while they ve markets because their trading and endangered species now these it's their whole tonality wildlife mark sir bad, because it is the disease issue cycle you're using the disease issue to get where you while the land before you're using this as a new tool to to when you're old war. I don't like to see that their man I gotta like when I don't like local people. Do that's like be intellectually honest in all right I to man and I've, been I've always been a little suspicious of the human health thing. I've sky got interested in it. When I had high lead levels in my garden, Led me to reading about you know how did lead get there How does it move what it had, what impact they have on people I've often looked at that and thought about that. These, like

Monks of bullet led passing through your system is just same thing. some of these ways in which people are getting lead from inhalation and others. that title. My article was great toxin were red herring in the and that's what a red herring is when you use your arm, During one thing, but that's not really what you're interested you maybe argue about human health? Are you really interested in raptor or I don't know if you've ever talked about it talk to your wife about something your disagreeing and he suddenly realised that what you're arguing about isn't really what she's? Let's put the problem with that something else in here that working on something else, and so I think people find what what's gonna be the most effective message in may

a good gravitated at an, and my message is just, let's be honest: let's talk about all these different facets of this topic and when we talk about human health, let's talk about led fragments and in them and shot in power that really can translate to problems with human health care that connection there. Action is not very strong there's. There are some cases where people there's a guy and in that living in the bush in new zealand. I think he was eating meat bushmeat that he was shooting My balls and he was eating every day, so he basically had led in his digestive system

Every day of the year and they test his blood and it was it- was skyrocketed with lead levels. Then there was a a case of an intimate community up in greenland. That was, that was eating a lot of sea ducks that were shot with with lead pellets and so late. They asked. How often do you eat sea ducks cause? They? They have a lot of lead pellets in him and those at hc ducks once a week or less were below the center for disease control and limit for for a danger zone. Those at a as they approach. One see that if any approach daily consumption of sea ducks their lead levels were were tend to seventeen above that cdc level of ten and seventeen mail it. So there are cases, Where people basically have are eating lad every day or pretty close to everyday, and it's always in their system you, you can definitely have your blood thy levels up to two unhappy

the levels for sure the indiscriminate killing argument right is the one that kills me like. I'm like there's just nothing I guess you could argue that randomly decide that yom and issued that book, but that's not the way. I see it for sure I do a lot of looking looking overran. Before I pull the trigger. And I'm just like a long way. Past sit now going through break it. Twenty do ammo shootin grounds. World does Do that anymore have a long long time and so that's why I'm always like osh she I that sail off with one leg hanging down, is that a dead raptor. Why did I just kill something that I didn't intend to feel like? I'm, ok with the little bit a wound: loss over the course of a season like I've mentally set myself up for that. For these birds.

But I'm not quite mentally, set up to say that is a prairie falcon or something else that is just by ass. That's out there. So yes it sets shooting you're upland birds of steel finally got a hold of some bismuth, it took me a long time to get it get ahold bismuth, but that means exactly what your dog imbalances that bismuth is expensive, stuff make think about born the dragon by god. Zest of work, though it does, does work. I just some. I've got some federal premium ts s for turkey, honey because it so amazingly effective, and I just I just spent eighty one dollars on five shock and shells that's our constant, the s s you gotta line up yet allowed their heads make sure you get more gettin, my son

it's a turkey the first time, and so it cost me thirty eight dollars institute a turkey when the second time you know it's nice to see Jim. What does tss. I dunno if you already hunted with them last season, but you know if they are so dense and so heavy that even if you dear patterns, are little about lowering. He hit that breast they tend to just whistle through that. well bird aid. And of having you know, shot stuck in the breast yeah yeah I shot my girls last year with tears ass about forty yards in it. The pattern was pretty dance, actually messed up. The detail fan because they're just well, I've used in and ninth together and can invest at the tail fat, but my son killed. a myriad last year at sixty yards laser range finer, sixty yards with twelve gauge with Jesus. It's me man, I'm getting all worked up for turkey hunting, trying to not think about turkey season Jim.

Two days later, coming on, sorry couldn't be like normal, where you come up in the studio, but we gotta get through this and get through this pandemic. It's killing me yup, I mean not literally kill me. It's literally killing some people guy, get those vaccines rolling out, get ready back together, Mr Jim bag, Pritchett coming on Cal Jani brodie current phil thanks a lot they argue, agonizing, stay well we'll see each other later together. the the.