The tonight show was severely wounded and, in my case, unaware of the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther stay long. The quick note top, but a sad news. If away back in our and our library of episodes to episode one twenty, which was called adaptive hunting in Shit, you will find a pretty inspiring interview with a guy named chris class b. He had had an accident. Do you remember? I I feel like I can't was diving, No, I was a vehicle vehicle acts, yeah ethics, sixty seven

in preparing young, pretty young, paralyzed and neck bound, but had and enjoyed hunting and fishing you now and even had worked with people to devise and in in fine tune. A member like oh, await a cat rod yeah, he goes spinning IRAN real it in dispute, arrived Or did some haunting his hunting body basically didn't hot, but just helped like they just teamed up, try to help Chris got have experienced is chris classic passed away and related to his condition, started having a difficult time, breathing and- and I think that he always kind of assumed he would not live to be an old man, but condolences to Chris clasby, his family and friends and again episode one twenty adaptive.

Hunting and fishing- I think we yeah- we recorded that here, not here here, but here it was in embolden. It was actually the last day that I was ever in the old bozeman z, pz office males are area was cleared out. Do just that. the sitting on donor in there, but I know it the good episode everybody should go back in and listen to that one, and you realize that doubt whatever your problems are there now as big as you think they are down. What's good point moving down here so You know I've said in recent episodes of I about how the living it be allowed on. Instagram is the turkey doc Did you ever have heard. You say that instrument should be called the turkey darkened. As the only page you can follow without it like it is too, is to day should be able to metal. If you had

had to follow someone else, you can choose that while we, despite our some quite titillating about the turkey doc, My chamberlain who's been on the show before here the studio, has been on the show in a sort of. More a theory away right where he we does at his voice, because and conducted the off interview rhythm, and then we played so we were like playing a recorded interview, but ah dr chamberlain came up recently because we're reading the thing that about the the the the the what the hell even calm, the red wolf of the south eastern. U s whatever parts, I messed up my chamber little square as well, but that there is only like Basically, none left. next to none left

we were caught a hunting around to try to find someone who understood this world, so they explain the saga of the red wolf of the eastern of the deep south east over the taxes? had wolf and the first guy went, he was a real wolf expert, the where I saw about half a finger. James, half of anger of angered arms. As I know a lot about a lot of things, and I don't like it about things I dont know about wolves or one of em but he said happened just so happens that the turkey dot is not just a turkey that he's like the red wolf that so well, we reached out in MIKE chamberlain is joining us remotely here gonna, give us a run down on what they are. I haven't to read what like what happened to it. What's happened to it now and why are there now article Sanders ten laughed there there? That's that's right

It's been quite a sordid assorted past. If you will Yes, so the rebels, you meant misty red walls were historically than the king. In the south east. They were the they were the the top, or, if you will come in, yet in size between grey wolves and encourage so not as lord a grey wolf and climate bigger than a kite. For many many years they were the they were the top dog in this Often then, as human beings are apt to do, we, we extirpated them from most of their range that was just a conflict with humans. Part of it was, was basically government mandated in and funded eradication. Programmes to to get rid of the wolf fur for human desires. If you will

Let me let me let me hate with this about the range, though I no. Let me talk about now in the south east virginia taxes, but like. The wolves, Daniel boon encountered like remember our guide and Daniel boons Hon party once got bit by wolf and then go rabies and develop hydrophobia and died I haven't read both in Kentucky. Yes, ok, so when, when the frontiersmen we're talking about wolves their time, a red wolves, Ebay, from latitude virginia Tennessee Kentucky south to to the gulf coast, And then, over to eastern taxes, gotta go on yeah. So so we remove the red wolf for of its range and then there was a pocket of of wolves.

Slash hybrid animals, that kind of sister it in south west louisiana and nineteen teach seventys the fish and wildlife service went in and cap as many of those animals as they could using what we thought the time. This is what a red wolf looks like. This is how big they are. This is what they're there appearance. Is they selected. Animals out of those captured animals. and they considered them as pure red wolves and they move two captive reading situations: and they started a captive reading ram. What are they ve been hibernating with what had they been hybrid arising within in Louisiana? Was it tie? It now

domestic dogs or coyotes. Okay, it was coyotes and basically what you had- and you guys know this so you had this- he had this pocket of of of that were laughed and then you- the swarm of cairo that you know there are numerically superior. and, as they kind of moved into areas werewolves, were they I bring eyes with with walls, because their numerically superior and say you had All sorts of wolf, like creatures, you know you had animals that were that were hybrids between coyotes and red wolves, those animals were were removed and the quote unquote Pure red walls became founders or what is now the red wolf that we was a species, those ended up being fourteen that aim. I could I question when the hybridization happens it usually the female,

I'll male red warfare, vice versa, or would go both ways. It goes both way but it tends to be smaller red walls. That's what that's! What we ve seen The smaller red wars and to be the ones that that hybrid eyes with tyres, which makes sense because there, without going too far in the wage, no wolves are bigger, so they and use more space, they can eat law pray more efficiently. So smaller wolf would, closer in size to cry out, so they would be more compatible when it comes, pairing together in using a home range together because there's a comparable and size of that sense of yearning smaller, like as younger or smaller as unjust, smaller stature, even at maturity smaller, as of morphological, smaller dodge thy way. Last there there shorter sure ear, shorter legs, etc. So morphological they they look. Quantum quote moral

a higher than say a larger wharf, would that's the one was that we see as being the hybridization issues, but you make sense, but to yanina, but I want to make sure I don't know I don't recall eyes question the particulars that very same like. Is it generally that a male red, wolf, bree It's a female cairo earth don't you guys were. The organist lead it gets that guy goes both ways. It just tends to beam. It tends to be size driven, in particular As you would expect a mainly and not have to back and look at our data. I think it tended to it tends to be more prominent with a what smaller male wolf and a female tired, but buddy. That's

I get into foreign ways, but the bottom line is yes both those and females we'll hybrid eyes with guy it got you yes, so those fort in founders, became became what is now the red wolf, for years. The small I've service, through cooperation with zoos and and propagation sites off to the east coast. Brad, red wolves and the idea was to eventually create a wild population. Somewhere else. there they were, they were removed from the while, which was southwest louisiana and that that happens light nineteen eighties. Those were loves war. I say those captive The walls were moved and released the album more peninsula peninsula witches northeast with caroline the reasons,

for that were many one there a lot of federal state land in that area too there are not a lot of human beings in that area. It's it's! It's an agricultural type landscape with large problem. and honours, and there were no coyoats there at the time in nineteen. Eighty seven, those animals, the farce releases, occurred and from there you saw a fairly rapid increase in them and the red will population. My during that time, when I did that known what you run into one you get coyoats. Was there anything that could be done or was attempted to be done to that no one that child's spread everywhere in moving and areas they had ever been before was ready like on a plan to prevent. Kyle some getting and they're? Not,

not per se keep kind, from getting there, but once they did get there there was an immediate recognition that there needed to be an adaptive management, ram and place, and what I mean by that as soon as coyoats started in full waiting is the recovery area. If you will, which was a five county area as soon as key it started getting in there. fish all I've service realized they were going to have to have a plan. To mitigate this hybridization potential that we knew existed with this with species and that really when more conner ends on management of the wolf began. What that programme. This was this came about, in the late nineteenth ninetys there was a workshop, convene actually attended that workshop as a graduate student, I was

I was in all of the people. Ours was sitting around because they were the the gods of of the wolf and I oral, but anyway the outcome of that workshop, which was dedicated to trying to figure out what do we do moving forward knowing that kind, sir there and they'll harboured eyes with walls and the outcome of that. An adapted management programme where the fish special I've service, would go in, and capture coyoats that had impulse it into the recovery area they rather than euthanize them. They were sterilize them em least them a sterile place, orders and the rest for that was was simple. If you were a cry, then their kyar comes in and replaces he or she very very quickly. We know that with quiet with cards in general, but if you will these them sterilised.

and you leave their hormonal systems in place. They don't know that their sterile continue to maintain space. They maintain their pairs. They continue nah debris, but they don't produce pops. You leave sterile kai. It's out there until you and go in and insert a wolf a wolf pair into that territory? and you allow the wolf to usurp that space that that cairo was using and as something listen, then I go while that's crazy that it had been use previously and when that method started being used by the? U s: fish more service. The recovery programme continue to to flourish. and what you actually saw was a stair step cross, the landscape of wolf territory's packs that war.

intact, and they were fighting all If you will cairo infiltration, because in a wolf pack can take care of itself relative to cairo that are coming in trying to do try the area. In other words, they they fight, kill, expel courage from their territories. So. at some point, and this was around the mid two thousands made too late to thousands. You had hundred and fifty a shred wolves across a landscape. He had intact. territories large packs, and they were maintaining themselves through this adaptive management programme. That was fairly heavy handed constant type of approach where you know that

fishwife service. The recovery programme biologist were constantly monitoring animals, as you can imagine, they were constantly trapping. They are constantly trying to determine what The cairo showed up was that kind of pay where the wolf was a wolf paired with acquired if a wolf, lost gunshot mortality or vehicle collision? What who he or she pair with as you can imagine, this was essential. Yeah around activity that these biologist conducted to keep to keep this population aged. no intact. It was one of those hundred fifty walls feed. None. Rebels a lot of beer. They, other things you can imagine in fifty sixty pounds- kane it that's living pack in north carolina. They can eat pretty much whatever they want. So you see the Iraq raccoons anything.

ma am a wise they'd. They would tend to tee, but dear, was of course, a primary pray. I am in our residents in this area on this peninsula with one hundred and fifty of them, our residents seeing them frequently like wolves are sort of a part of their life data, yet, as you can imagine, if you go to north east north carolina, you see a woodlot, you know, and these pecos wetland areas- and and there's a lot of agriculture and wool being a fairly large animal yeah. You you see All the time you know and ate what we showed with our, the resource that we were doing, I did a lot of research in that area. they would students graduate students, Those walls used agricultural field, a lot so they hung out in those fields. I raised pops in those fields they hunted and this field. So

they were readily observable, the day to day running, trouble with livestock predation much at all, not a lot. You know you you'd see, occasional losses in and the the fishwife service, their recovery programme. Biologist. At the time there there now gone. They did most of them their people. on site? They maintain really close working relationship with the local landowners and if there were issues with with livestock, take they address those issues, but that landscape is a pretty poor. Rich landscape. The dear density in that area is quite high, so You see a lot of livestock issues and there was broad support from the public for more, being there, of course, as you wish, which public, though, like the pub meaning north carolina in general or the

the meeting, the residents of the peninsula, both there there were, there broad support, both locally and across the state, Wolf being their yeah sure, I'm sure you are familiar with the phenomenon of on when you poor people in a state about who loves wolves they you score lower among the people that live biome than they do, we enable the hour in yet it is thinking about them yeah yeah yeah. So obviously you know you you could, It was a lot easier to find somebody Andy, county or hide county north carolina that had that was In favour of wolves than there was and charlotte north carolina, you know that debt was experiencing conall day to day life with the warrior absolutely, but in a broad sense there was there was. There was a lot of support for the for the wolf being there

got it. So we go from such broad support, which is all surprising to me. I've spent a fair amount of time up in that country, and it's not the country where I would expect the locals to be like yeah, whoa sticking around eat our dear no, what happened yeah. So, despite the fact that there is broad support, not everybody is, is pro wolf and I will say you know Today, the recovery programme, the reason that that, The interactions between the wolf and the poor but landowners was kept on a carnival, Positive was the recovery ram biologist work, their asses off, educating people talking with people. Trying to help mitigate any concerns or complaints with the wolf those by, just would go on and and

Obviously they needed access to private land to trap, wolves every year as part of the adapt management programme. So they had a really strong working relationship with those with us? go landowners and they were able to walk up to the front door and and have a with right. Honest conversation about concerns that those landowners expressed so when there was a wolf there was was a problem. Chris Luke asher will, or one of the other biologists would go knock on the door. Have a conversation in, and sometimes His conversations or very pointed in very difficult, but that willingness to go Have those conversations was one of the reasons that the programme continue to flourish, and then all of a sudden, and it wasn't really sudden but we started. Seeing around the mid. Two thousand was an income he's an gunshot mortality is,

As an aside when the Wolf was restored to them part of the world. They were considered as a non essential population and therefore they did not. Carry the same protections as species would under the endangered species that so shooting a wolf in Mistakenly, shooting a wolf did not Harry. The same consequences is as it would in other areas. So, what started happening around the mid two? Thousands is gunshot. Mortality started skyrocketing and part of was? Was mistake? in someone thanking they were shooting at a cairo or, honestly, not caring what they were shooting. At eight days there was In it of some kind in and they shot it started, saying that with this country- mortality,

All of a sudden, these breeding pairs were being dissolved because of us because of humans and what I mean by that is, you know you had this pact and all of a sudden you lose the breeding female or the breeding mail and kay sensors and those pact started being whittled away by guns, mortality is instead of tat. There were six instead of six, there were three and now sudden the pact dissolves and now you're a managing in favour of a cairo and against a wolf, because coyoats warden numerically superior instead or was that it was the gunshot turkey,

that a concerted effort, or do you think there was it was just randomness, but it but an increasing randomness. I think there was probably- and this is me this is me speaking- I just kind of it from a logical person's perspective, not an academic. I think it was both Steve You know you probably had some people that outside probably we know there were people that the targeted wolves and we also know from our own field interactions with people. If there were some people that legitimately thought they were shooting a cairo and and were shocked, were stunned that they had killed. A red and more happy about it. You know that they were not pleased with themselves at that they had done that got so. was a combination of both in and honestly, I think part of it centred around than that? kind of the narrative. The rhetoric that started, seeing in the deep south around

two thousand five two thousand six used seeing a lot of discussion about coyoats and their impact on game. species and This is my. This is my speculation, but it it seems a bit. Incidentally, that we started seeing these issues skyrocket about the time. A lot of that that rhetoric, was going around and people like me were actually part of that, because we were. We were publishing a lot of information at the time about the importance of cairo on dear papa nations and how they can affect dear populations, and there was, A lot of talk in there still is a lot of talk about the cairo being of a problem for dear papa. Nations and therefore, if we didn't have the cairo we would have more it harvest opportunities and I think the red one in some ways got caught up in that and that that's truly truly unfortunate, but.

So you started seeing a lot of gunshot mortalities. The population started declining, at the same time, you started seeing issues with with private landowners that were politically connected plan. ring for a lack of action. Four walls clamouring for the yes, service to remove walls from private lands and put them back on public lands. What unquote, where they belonged, and there was sure on the fish, while I've service to issue take permits, werewolves could be taken on private lands because they were quorum, quote a problem and that was pretty much the beginning of what I consider now to be the end. Is the wolf population plummeted A series of lawsuits resulted

those law suits involved, the state of north carolina, the? U S, service, private groups and base Clearly. The outcome predictably, was poor for the wolf and now what you have is the fish, and while I service that has abandoned the recovery programme, they have basically said where Goin to conclude managed it He sees in captivity and we're going let them do there thing as walls on federal lines, and on the peninsula- and now, as you mentioned, that the open or we have just a handful of red one left in the wild. There remain inter of them, have been assimilated into the coyote population as hybrids and if you want to go, see a red wolf. If you can't get

on that tanner, so that are left out there. You need to go to zoom in in about fifteen minutes, is what I can the sad and unfortunate. Recovery and the loss of of while red Is there not another place across its historical range, where maybe people and in the state would would welcome? A population has added discuss. Yes, it has gas. We we, and ass. I say we have only been tangential in some of these conversations but yeah there's been a of discussion about well. Ok We go somewhere else, what these animals and as an aside in in mentioned this, but that's a great question. This was attempted second time so after the population on the peninsula got got rolling. the fish, while our service also tried this in great smoky mountain national park and if you've, if you've visited that

Beautiful part of the world, you know that it's very rugged there's a lot. a federal land there. But. There are not a tremor this number of deer, and other priorities in most of the smokers, outside of these- these open, I manage early successful areas like cates cove and some of those places. So happened in that, in that instance, do were released in the park and they almost immediately went to private lands and went down a lower elevation areas where there's agricultural properties and of course they encountered some some problems with people there. Pop survival in that study very, very low, almost zero, so it didn't take for the fish and wildlife service. To pull that that effort and put those animals back,

in the north carolina into the albemarle peninsula, because that effort was a failure, since then. Yes, there are men. Discussions on what okay? Well, where do we go from here Can we go somewhere else and there are areas that in many ways are: are suitable for walls. The problem is twofold: one is: is us humans and too is the recognition that you don't have anywhere in the southeast that is absent, guy it so this issue that that the recover program ran into again The sterilization a release of of sterile place holders that would need to be conduct wherever we go with this wolf and it was working quite well as we meant as we discuss, but That is something that would have to be in place. Do

think they're with new leadership, with the new administration and new leadership at you, fish and wildlife service. Do you imagine that there might be a real about face and then, couple years, and that they might renegotiate this and that My second question right now is. We know that we don't win. Were we another? We can't win every conservation, fight, chair and. there is such a thing is throwing good money after bad which take on that yeah the answer to the first question is: is no I don't, I don't see about face unless it's perhaps a half hearted about and maybe that's a maybe that's a jaded cow sarcastic answer

but you asked me to question: that's modest, as modest assessment does given given the past. I don't. I don't see regard of a change in administration. I don't see about face unless it's again a half hearted not really a genuine about face. good money, bad man stay, that's a good question and, as you can imagine this, this programme costs money. I mean it, it costs money to do. It costs money to pay the people that they did this It costs money to have the the framework in place logistics in place. These aims These were monitored weekly by airplanes. Many wars and other populations are so there. There was a lot of expense associated with this budget, and there would be there will be if they continue it. If they expand it, there will be. That competition for resources is certainly something that that would be at play.

and that some of the sum of the anti wolf rhetoric, if you will that was generated in the late two thousand in early two, thousands that resulted in a lot of those there's lawsuits that was one of the complaints, as you know, look how much money is being spent on this program and for for what this is, what the Critics was I m for what, for so, that we can have a wolf north carolina that we constantly have to help that this was more their arguments here, not because that was the term a member, oh yeah, John manuel, on the the job of alum. He introduced a term that her before was something conservation reliant. What's that expression gear observation relies out. There is like a conservation reliant species like that's only gonna caught it. If we're potent Time, money protection effort is never going to get on autopilot. Absolutely that now

the interesting thing and in some of the wolf, the proof people in and I won't label myself as that brought. The research was very clear if it you had enough wars out there. They were cape pull of managing themselves. In other words, What you saw if, if you look at a map of of the hour, or peninsula. If you could look all way over to the east and dare county, and then you move westward up. You know towards rally, durham. On the eastern most part of the peninsula. There were no quiet, and what, you were there. There were very few because the wolves maintain space and they exist be required from the landscape and, as you moved westward you move into an area where, at the far end there was hybridization going on, as you would expect, but as soon as you moved far enough ease to where you had large

intact packs of wolves. They took care their own business? If you will they excluded from those territories and therefore or- and this is something I think is sadly ironic- would rather have six or eight red wolves consume dear or sixty two hundred tie it and that's. Why That's what you see in, and war territories. You only have a small number of wolves that are eating dear or any other pray, but absence of those walls. You replaced them with a species it uses a much smaller home range eat so much. greater diversity of prey, including many me, birds and you are place them in situation where they are now numerically, two three four five times superior, wolf, that was there, that's something that I I would often talk to people about in and sometimes you fell on deaf ears, but that is that is

something we saw with the research now you're the time lines don't add up for this. What and ass you next add up in a real litter away, because while they populations move so slowly. would you take it safe to say that, had we not extirpated wolves in the eastern? U s are virtually every At a time in the lower forty eight do like Do you ever look at them like? If that had happened, we wouldn't have had their the explosion of kyle's, or do you think it would have been evidently a thing it's kind of somewhere in a grey area between because. No removing wolves from certain points. So our landscape was inevitable, whether we actually tried to extirpate them or not. You know. So, if you kind of get the eastern united states. You know just because a population

in population, you were going to be in a situation where you would create parts of it. Landscape, that a key can use, but a wolf can't hear that makes sense I submit that the urban suburban jansky, now you can Wolves that here, you have coyoats in central park, your generosity, many grey wolves run around a central foggy, thankfully so yeah I think, there's there's probably a little in both directions on, but I thank yes in me broad areas, rural areas, the remove the wolf there's no question its benefited, the guy it there's no question the removal of wolves impact. color the red wolf aloud kyle colonise south eastern united states in a ridiculously fast manner? had they encountered in tackle territories that expansion would not have been nearly as rapidly as it is

amen, why? Why, and how is it? Do you think that this is like kind of flow, Under the radar like as populations, gotten whittled down to nothing, seeing it national news, like pro wolf advocacy groups, aren't making big deal out of it. Like anything any time anything happens with grey wolves like that colleagues in hot or I'd saying, they're gonna kill ninety percent of the grey wolf population, like that's not, that is not what they said. Ok, that is what,

that that is what the let us build on the way the stream live stream of that's what I'm getting at it becomes a store becomes, is national story. Prowokin advocacy groups jump on it like. Why haven't we seen that with that? Can you please clarify what they said you said that I'll, let you do essence since emmett brodie, they had agreed, they had agreed in that state many decades ago that wolf recovery looked like a hundred and fifty one there now sitting on one thousand five hundred to say that there are still per operating on that recovery objective, which everybody agreed to don't yell at me, I'm not deliberately lucy. I know if I don't get mad at him, a matter reuters, a mad at every level. Generating not not useful,

but yeah every clickbait generating person on the planet. The loosening, hunting restrictions they ve loosen the restrictions, always longed to no effect dude is now almost idaho's. Gonna lose a couple more restrictions in all. Sudden, they're gonna be Bam all at recovery, objective, you're not going to do it. I understand that I'm not mad at you brody, I'm just saying why as in their ban. That level of scrutiny put on this situation especially I have no, Otto someone's governor, kills or grey wolf and wholly smokes gap. That is a really good question. Man and I will tell you had a problem in the question. a question itself was law, but

This is the latest on the router. The question was: was it was a good one that that question has been bandied about amongst myself and many others. And I don't have a great answer. Gaza. I think in some ways. because of where this this occurred, you know what eastern north carolina, the very rural area the state North carolina, the day agency was not Equally vested in this and this project there will there were conflict, join the agency in the: u s: fish, all I've service, so basically had a small group of people, the recovery programme, we're working in isolation out in this area and when these issues started popping up and these things started happening in

out of going to the top of the mountain top and saying dammit people. We ve got a problem here and we need help. We need you to help us figure out a way to stop what's happening, to this animal being there being shot that didn't happen and it didn't matter. If I got up at a conference in and gave it Talk about what was going on, which our did it didn't matter. If people in You'd me you're students or biologists- it it just didn't it did. seem to matter. There there was a lot of traction around it. and a lot of us have openly discuss why that why that was it? travesty. I wish I could be like a traffic cop, indirect american sentiment to new too, like proper areas. Could we get distracted by?

things? But if we do that, we have this conversation about caribou herds in the lower forty eight and our life Am I in my young little lifetime here we were urged in allowed caribou More forty, eight to blink out. I just gave up. no one ever gave a shit about that ever ever. Yeah and what we're does in hawaii. There's a group of people who why, who make it their mission to go around? beating feral house cats at night. And they have a legal team just just the fact that it exist is ridiculous, so that bit that coincides with, like. Oh, what a kiss the red wolf goodbye, because the cariboo goodbye and poor, argent, again bro an all round and always default browser. I got

it's skin, I'm ok! I just I just read too many of those headlines mike you just read the headlines. You were telling me that you think the red wolf got kind of caught up in the hatred of the coyote and and weather in the minds of folks. They were really ever seen as a distinct species, are some great around that yeah yeah. That's that's something we haven't talked about, but it is a very important point. Thank you career for bringing that up There has been some taxonomic debate about this. This critter as well. And in our not a taxonomist in and I can look at this from the standpoint I have from the start as long as this kane it is recognised as its own species, then, going to study it, because at the time I was I was really the only p I press

investigate that will study red walls and wild and integrity a statement that was working for me. Joey Hinton was really the the we're front of red wolf research they were there were other people not drawn step on other device There were other researchers that we're doing work, red, wolf work but joy. dissertation. Research was really the the penultimate. work on red walls and While all of this was going on, there were constant taxonomic debates about well. Is it? Is the red wolf really of species, or is it just a hybrid and yadda, yadda, anyhow taxonomist and no offense taxonomist, but you know they get paid to have these debates in the end, they get hijacked by the new. They got hijacked by the geneticists man, The guy got overthrown by the geneticists Yeah

and there there was a lot of back and forth. You know well there that the red wolf is not a wolf, it's a hybrid! Well, no, it's it's actually a species and sarah, etc. I mean we're hybrids when using human or human neanderthal hybrids at about the ito. It's you to throw out bison recovery? They they try to three Bison recovery on the same grounds does a little teensy you better. It'll intro ration the lower the serpent screw now when you say hybrids mike what like hybrids of what like a grey wolf in a coyote like there. Basically, that that they're, just on their hybrid kane it did that There was no such thing as a, and there are some that argue this. There there's never been any such thing as a red wolf that actually was running around there is just a kind of grey wolf slash. You know my if you will again,

yet again, though, that argument that mindset has been at playing and has been out, therefore, for decades really was forty, while there too, as it that's all species that species creation. Yeah you can. You could say the same thing on by some understanding. Gb like screw me deer. It's just that. It's a It's a it's a tail blackmail, hybrid or some such you know and I get this question a lot in in the turkey arena- is like well hey doc, This picture is this a real or a merry? or an eastern or whatever and like Well, it looks like an east But let me ask you who care I who we cares? Well, I wanted it from on

from us I and I'm in whatever state are you within the reins, that's considered that sub species we yeah than just ok, move on man, They shouted thirty shot ass, good to serving up your flamsteed. you never met was lamb. I have some work to do the super great slam. Broil maybe the royal great slam yeah so, to grants point here that the tax, My guess is certainly didn't help didn't help. What on with this animal, because there was a narrative around wait. A minute, they're sums, I want to say- and this is you know it's not supposed to be a species really and at that didn't help for sure new. Can we ask you to examine. Absolutely we're gonna to a lot more is not is depressing, is the river off for sure,

sunday am I being Earl. Not. I really do. I want your question, then, I want you to tell people to find in everything, but we had a guy right in he says in Missouri and now in idaho, where I live. Here's about how a primary turkey predator is crows and ravens we're Itzhak later in the sap, is over and talk a bit about. Ravens killings. Some crazy stories about ravens, killin stuff And how they all spine, the nest they'll see hatchlings poles and kill him they'll find NASA need the eggs and use time he kicks up this. This hunter Saint HIV kicks up ahead. They'll, ceta,. Scrounge and around on the ground. This is no easy task. go point out, but they'll settle looking around on the ground until they find the females nest there.

And their camouflage that nest with sticks and leaves do her, the favor camouflage in her nasa's decently zadig so that nothing eat some while she's gone right, any says: they'll even beware. In a tom, kick up a hen, so work in the town in order to locate the nest and camouflage he's wondering What else does this, and if you would, as a biologist view, would discourage encourage this very YO admitted like very well intentioned. conservation, move yeah well intentioned don't do it that way. My recommendation for for a couple of reason, I understand the notion of

The bird leaves the nest and you feel like it's your fault. You wanna high those eggs and keep these marauding predators from from getting the eggs no a couple of things, one if you just get the hell out of their she's coming back most likely. If she's, or an incubator after say the first eight ten days, she's almost guarantee to come back. and she's not going to wait that long to do. It is not like she's going to be gone for half a day, she's coming back quickly too, if you walk around that nest and you're looking sorry in your trampling vegetation, you're leaving your sent. In the area and that I think that that predators can q in on beyond just the sin of the hand or or the next. So I think in many cases, particularly with predators that are olfactory that that smell

the us approaching the nest is a real problem and that's- of the reasons that my field crews. We don't. We don't go to the nest until it hatches or fail even though we know exactly where it is, we don't go, we have, but we don't typically put camp Now we don't do anything things that I promise the situation at the next site, because were concerned with creditors, queuing anon on our activities and are sent more importantly, so that our I would not encourage people to do that and if that person contacts he's really mad. I understand, but that would not be something I would encourage. What'd, he is deadly, not free up like by god. This is do it I'll do it for the rest of my life come hell or high. I think he's saying like hey I've been doing this. There is a good idea, not not a great idea.

We're get a move on the smallest off my back It is with them. You know It is with year ah to find stuff yeah. So if you want to see not redwood stuff, but turkey stuff You can hit me up on any of my social media accounts on instagram and twitter. It's just at wild turkey. Doc is all one word. While turkey dios ii, and you see up post stuff, every about turkey, stuff of some kind research. Just Jim anecdotes, great grand by great graphics. Yet I try lot of stuff like what animal Do when there were in tracking device in Canada. Hardly move on the landscape. Word eight stay how they react to each other. How the reactor hunters is fat. Got some I've got some pretty cool ones coming up for this summer to it with some stuff sums. In so doing now that that's pretty cool.

We were doing some drone war, which is really cool. Looking at that vegetation starts up, I've got some pretty sweet things. I think people interested in so family there or facebook you just type in my name, and if you can get the same information. You won't get some radio collar action. You need to put a collar on me and my son this weekend for the last couple days. Turkey's man, you can see a hard core mortality event yeah of you to have hung for the year of of so tired and my wife is so my man, basal must join us. Yet take care gas, nay. My axe, sayer, On the you, tom outrage, this guy, your ravens killing turkey s native alaskan, rolling ravens, he works out of remote island. Alcide Juno sounds in the mining business.

Got a mill shop. They got iraq, pile rosetta, their camp where he works, whereas a native alas Grendel mean like like no one summer like I'm, a native idaho, and they mean Their born meidel native laskin do. The usa native american in alaska, they'll, say native alaskan says that on that up, they found a fond with a broken leg at their mining camp. Stumbling around and they re able to grab splint it's leg and it made a back to his mom, but A small gang ravens got onto it. Plotted to death, picked the death pickin its eyes, picking at its now vegetate killed. It got through its ribcage and got to its vitals too Then around their canvas where it gets weird, is a group of these

forty five young male ravens,. Around their camp, like they he's warner. Did it. This group is learned This goes around their camp, and started laying waste to funds they large one their attack in form or kept coming in trying to defend the venture. The dog some injuries on her ears, injuries on her eyes gave up. They killed that the best they can tell they killed sixty ten fawns round him said some leaders laugh like there was they figured out how to do it better left got to learn that the his coworkers there about what to do and, as you know, migratory bird act. You know legally kill him and they re ask him like an alaskan native.

maybe he can kill the ravens and he explain that the relationship between his people and the ravens and their culture, beliefs and ls out of the question for him is one. As you may have heard of this, so we got looking a little bit manner in the livestock world. It's a real known thing. like manuals. What some of this stuff here We got manuals about the cost. the livestock ravens killin baby lands. We got a picture of some, little pile of lambs, the. look like they have like racket, not even like, like like gone ball size holes bore into him all over our film is this just

This is just a raven thing, not a crow thing do we know crosses well curls as well, and so half a finger brought this up. He brought up others. That old, saying you know like the how different herds stuff murder of crows heeded Nobody brought up a makes. You think about the term murder of crows when descend on livestock out well descend on livestock operations. A livestock manager in colorado will say at a very hard winter. Two thousand eight tonnes of snow. Food got real scarce, they lost lot of calves that the ravens getting them around the eyes. The tail head, which I guess is where the tail joins of the body. I never heard that term tail head. Media part of the hip she's, but talk about goshawk golf balls, alert, golf ball size holes, packed all the way over down the bone said sickening.

And I was a bad winner, the huge meal dear kill, that was a mere there's aboard the american for all new common raven gets into their predatory instincts and then The department of egg has twenty twenty paper about ravens and it talks about just their insane intelligence and that groups them learn to do things, talks Bobby and bad for crop. damage, but also preying on livestock newborn livestock and then complicate and where ravens become a hindrance to endangered threatened and sensitive species. This department of agriculture report Its end up where they have impacts on sensitive, threaten endangered species were pardo like work. Recovery plans are impacted by m desert tortoises. California, lease turns snowy, clovers, piping, plovers plovers without edward clover, clover piping,

over the or californy candour mark. Old, mere, let's see and clemente loggerhead shrikes. Greater sage. Grouse are good friends, goes on and on so that guy's etc. that guy are bad that like occurrence around that camp, and it winds, like previous corroborated as not not unusual yeah not unusual. At all, I mean this department of AG papers fascinating in terms of like what behaviour is. It seem it documents of of raven it's and just kind of digging into like local town, public publications you'd see that this happens so much with livestock, but I wonder if other listeners have ever come across. You know like we're. Looking at this photo of, Of a bunch of young lamb, exactly as stephen mention with like golf ball,

eyes: holes, local color, short range in our part of the abdomen in their eyes, and I just wonder if any hunters or in a folks around the outdoors have ever come across a foreigner young, dear, oh god, oh guy or trousers, and I used to work with one thousand the tribe is he watched and he had like a blow. Why below account, but I have no doubt that this guy was to happen not not frozen rave. He watched to golden the eagles kilo programme wow. He said man took, they took their time where the two and he's a Dave we must know what they're doing and it wouldn't run. Just go unsettled and hang out like what you gonna run member in a fog night. we saw those golden eagles dive bomb in that EL yeah and they were really harass in it, and there was something about it that was acting weird too, like they were like they were very intent on it, dive bombed its name.

Dived down its face, the guy that saw him hit the kill the pronghorn he said, come down and rake its back. They come down rake its back, and then crash into the ground, like them contain their level of velocity, So he goes. It actually kind like booth when they hit the dirty begins fast and just rake their talents and its innovation, We got a big wound on its back and in a got down into the backbone, tendons and stuff, and that was it holy cow instead of just running circles, so did it, while you may not know, but did it die of exhaustion? or blood law, sir. They just war it down and did a heart. You said it add not by me. The stress I mean the strategy has a b It is an enormous value, couldn't run anymore. We're does in hawaii. I was tom of the stuff. Remind me some else. You mentioned bout, the that the spirit of the spear fisher Kenny Werner was telling me just about

predation things issues on time in the water with killer whales workers is the pc term form their feed, not hearing. And it just chasing his big balls herring around underneath or bubbling bubble in m, or I should mention that part where she mentioned this sees a half of herring coming up floating up towards the surface bubbling In writing. El the bubbling realized it was like I like it. swim bladder had just been nicht when those cotton half souls, I can't in a bubble line as it came up, half of the knob herring as ms na's long as your hand, right half of the herring also here comes a bull killer. Well up since that lower have herring down it goes back down again then, does very little current. Like that,

thousands of pounds of that thing and he's like. Oh, I missed that one came up and nabbed would be like. Like you know, it'd, be like you going out of your way to go, grab a a quarter of smarty eighth wired. It's like a charging us you're going to charge, makes the review go away from those are those are heinous. Anyone know if those are. The guy wrote in a couple of interesting things that we got from the other good piece of feedback as a written about getting accidentally shot. Guy was. Master I'll, be begun and use a kid, and He had one was carried unscrew the barrel capped loaded and he was unscrew in the barrel with his teeth.

gotta, be shot into his tongue, carry the baby and his tongue and dental x rays. He could keep an eye on that will be because dental x rays turned governor, the guy wrote, an area can talk you solve. These can talk yet afloat trip. They get you a gravel bar like the list of things will make a turkey gobble. Why up. In the morning they gotta camp on the beach is big, cliff cross from camp. He gets the more and it makes a mamma most parts open the process going a shock gobble of prosecco as good stuff Normally the came in his interested me as I used to fish right what I live in seattle I was about. Age or cause of perch mortality and lake Washington? And I don't mind I don't like the spot burned it, but it's pretty odd, like it's a huge late Anywhere you go at the edge of a weed bed which the entire primitive lake- god eighteen feet of water and, as you catch perch

A sigh clone of perch comes up with the perch memorable. caught seventy in an hour but usually like doubles, I mean united and now that leg was in the midwest old men would learn. Skips would emptied out their part amber trailers along the banks and emptied out, but no in their cars I was sitting there. They had health advisers on the perch and I always be hampered. Fries appeal as a third mobiles eat those fish. The help advisory was trained perch over ten inches or some such nor was the certain amounts so many ounces, every so many months of fear of perch over certain size and the health invite, They too have a lotta. Have you those industrial solvent small manufacturing in seattle. someone said you will be pleased to know. A lot of those health advisory for lake Washington have been dropped now, there's only to fish

from lake, washing with health advisory, the common carbon, the northern pike minnow the health Everyone should not eat but perch. For it is going to find out, is this because getting cleaner than it is right. It is worthwhile limiting pollution, doing clean up measures and then too, I'm in flushing and rain water right all all the help daily. Is the solution to pollution? to put it that or is it that they realise that you can eat a lot more that nasty should? Then you thought you could critical to find is the water. Better. Is the monitoring of the wreck? foundations different state hand right arm, I need to know, but it is good to know, because now, when I, if I was to ever, go back there and have a giant perch fry, I wouldn't be able.

Need. I weren't need to be able to say to people on where you see these are These are all nine and three quarters of an inch long and they don't get. That Kelly until their tent, like now, We'll be like, in fact, no, there is no health advisory on yellow perch. Unlike Washington, it would have made purge rise, more fun, now, some good fish in there Missouri had its first blabber season. Someone explain this yeah first white bear season and quite some time- maybe a hundred years Last week we don't have that in our notes, but They are dang near extirpated dislike or next door over there and ah we're not next door. I guess arkansas will be to the south correct yeah, which is next door, got a desk. I will speak in argus our guy said in a new one. This is terrible, but our concern dogs, for they cause

evening horses arkansas credit card as for collecting going ahead Well, anyways. Our conservation efforts have brought to bear I m Missouri. Now they have a estimated eight hundred and they're going to give out four hundred bite bear permits for four october pale mia. It's pretty cool nine percent year on year, population growth there. they're gonna have arm in the next ten years, they'll double their population. I decide something from, I think, was iowa fish and game. That said, there are expecting bears, become more and more prevalent in iowa further spread, their there they're good at the job, dad they figured out memory

Carl malcolm on yours go. We talked about, though, was gone, the super so in his he was speaking Thickly studying black bears on the edges of range, so his your thing was in different areas, are moving in different directions right, but in his area was bears. Wisconsin moving to the south and what was crazy is the health in fecundity of those bears on the edge, bigger, more cobb's, batter like they by bait. Alexander moving into new on They have known entirely on tap resource of man in presume, Double smart bears because they're coming from population is now you like move them into a whole new areas like he's from with the area he just pioneering new spots where no other bears are in their messing around and that,

you were so that put off some life, as for years in a row for girls, did five. It did five cobb's. Did it to one hundred pounds took a year off, as they do did five cub Got them all to a hundred pounds? That's when equip monetarism and then, when they left her off, she was pregnant with five or bristowe pretty soon man, it's going to be like the bald eagle. You know when we were kids like anytime. Someone saw on if you're traveling somewhere, where they lived you'd, be like. Oh, we'll get to see a bald eagle, and now people were just like that scavenge and like we're everywhere, whereas franklin thought about them, he thought they were just gross scavengers where I grew up in north western pennsylvania. There's never bears when I was a kid and they're all over them.

Because they embarrassed the country well, there is always bears, but not like way up in the northwest part of the state along lake erie and now they're like in the city of erie. Do we know what percentage of bear tags purchased across states are filled? yeah that I was when I was surprised to see the four hundred I would like to know as a slogan slow can open right. There. I'd be curious to know if you are loud like it, I am assuming you can't bait and you can't run hounds because if you had a hundred bears and you'd know, One of the population- and it was gloves off on bathing in hounding you gonna bears. I wonder if it's that you can't. in their given out four hundred tags, because they think they'll kill honour barrier. You can't because they think that africa's.

Africa's even now would be a pretty high rate, and I mean you be curious because it may not like. I wonder if I bet Reuters right now is right. Article Missouri, To kill half of all bear we'll cover taiwan when you to taiwan? Does this later? As I want this, I was shocked to find out about taiwan interesting taiwan has indigenous groups. So does it'll take a look at later here. You'll. Do you ask Our like predominant, euro american population that displays indigenous peoples in in taiwan, ever indigenous groups and people are done in gabon. People are gone and further their rights, so they went I want to sixteen indigenous groups that hunt two point: five percent of the population,

They only want on certain days and they have to use homemade rifles this one. I don't understand that, Yes, so traditionally use homemade rifles, homemade right their dangerous, so they're like well. You know We want to keep putting. As our tradition dictates, we would like to do it with safer firearms, but there's a big boy. I will go on the wildlife conservation act is can to restrict. Indigenous hunting rights, saying You can only use homemade guns. And this is interesting- they would have to fight An application and in report how many and what kind of animals they'd hunt so beforehand. You gotta tell what your plans are than afterwards. You got to issue a report about what you got. This work is interesting in their tradition,. Hunting animals are the blessing of ancestral spirits. You cannot

most or show off. These people are probably not on instagram here. they were now my answer. Rampage was, I used both show off but stuff. I thought so. If you both to show off by your hunting prowess? Your punished by god and their legal system. so they don't want to issue reports tallying up what they got you then send off in the mail. Looks like they're not going to overturn these new rules because they say that environmental protection are as equally important as indigenous rights this I started with a lengthy legal battle. Ganem,

I'm going to I dunno how he pronounces the name tama to loom tomah, to loom I dunno tama to loom, let's say he's sixty two years old back in two thousand and thirteen and he killed a couple protected species where the modified rifle so he was trying to feed his mother and she dies been raised on wild game, preferred wild game and he killed a call. Protected species got three: after years in the clink and that's what started the oh bruce, I'm ruined for the union his hunters. It seems unlikely that they're, the ones that are responsible for this. What gets into yeah these? Have commercial market hunting up until nineteen eighty nine they had commercial market hunting. They ban calmer, margo hunting and

the endangered they hunt, muntjac jagged dear they hunt monkeys aloud, ass thou started recover. Their saying that subsistence hunting by indigenous peoples is not was driving extinctions, bullshit, so I. Her eyes a on, but but keeping what would remove wave Marty our taiwan desk. Stay out and in indian stay on indigenous culture, indigenous hunting rights. retard about red talk to our guess here

also joining remotely resided like residual. Let me explain its real quick, so covered forced us to do a lot of remote stuff, which I like then I started to kind of like aspects of it because it allows you re use We used to have a firm. Like no remote guest rule What, and as much as I like to have people, hear it kind of opened up like those people that we wanted to talk to that simply couldn't talk to you because of issues lining up schedules, so One of the long term pandemic results. you know. I keep meeting people who say like I for now I will always wear a mask on airplanes now that I'm used to it. Well, I dunno. What about this recently. But I have been talking to quite a few people about a couple interesting things that we realized that

We haven't had a cold or a flu well over a year ago, it's come through our household and I've talked to a couple. Doctors, nay said the union. national, flew numbers and there was no peak last winter. It just stayed as fires kick all through the winter and new, like there's two thoughts I was like. Oh great. We should just all wear masks all the time and nobody's going to get sick and you know great, but at the same time we do need to get sick to build immunity and stuff so Yeah, there's there's that and there's also like. If someone said to me, you can kind of go where you want to go and do what you wanna do, but you might get a cold now and then or you can hide your house, the mask on and never get a cold. I'd probably add technical. Definitely be away like somebody who, I know like very reasonable. Rational people are like now that I'm used to it I'll always fly with the frickin mass, because everytime I go somewhere in the winter. I get sick.

another long term covert impact will be that we will always allow too limited degree. Remote p, While the come in and tell us about stuff, term like covert impact, so today, towns, balsam, stuff jacob I know he just tell me how to say Jacob Broussard Jacob Broussard, that's right care from his family. from the mississippi band of chalk, ta indians and he's a law student arizona state university during his law degree, along with a certificate in federal indian law. An the concern and passionate hundred jaeger Jacob. I filled but go inherent missing points their legitimate, but where you're at nearer in your in your in your young career. Never get into some were going to get it at some definitions and stuff like that. That are helpful to know yeah. I appreciate the introduction steve ah well,

like you, said I'm in law now but prior to come in

at the school. I graduated from university of southern california, and I worked for a year in washington d c for the national congress of american indians, which is the largest most representative, indian advocacy organization, on the hill and in the nation, and and we did a lot of work advocating for indian country addressing issues that are pertinent to indian country, including things like land use, hunting and fishing rights on tribal lands as well as elsewhere, and I've also done some work in LOS angeles, alongside the human relations commission. Working on again some issues that are pertinent to indian country in a sort of a city context, so sort of spanning the board from whether it be urban or rural land and everything in between I've been very fortunate to have some experience. Learning from nationwide leaders, both in indian country

in some of our elected representatives and and how we're touching on issues as they pertain to indian country are riddled topper. I have a question for you. Is it equally acceptable like Allah? Is it? Is it synonymous to say native american or to say indian, like in your mind, is it it's either is cool, That's a great question, and you know it's it's funny, because it ties in the years. Some of the things will talk about later in the issue comes up a lot right in a folks. Some folks take offence to the term. Indian some folks are completely fine with it. I would say in terms of

navigating people's impressions around the terms. My native american is a term that I think is most widely accepted in referencing individuals. However, the constitution of the united states and the laws that we have set out as it pertains to the native community references native americans as indians and that the political designation and so it's actually a really fascinating conversation around what is most comfortable fur folks from different backgrounds to use in terms of the terminology, but you'll hear me today use the term indian and use the term indian country and the reason I use those arms is because we have actually codified in law. Those terms referencing tribal nations as indians and referencing anything that protects pertains to those communities as indian country, an indian country can mean actual reservation,

it can mean lands that are owned by tribes or it can mean lands that are neither of those things, but there is perhaps a tribal community living on those lands and so indian country sort of the blanket term we use both in terms of legislating law. The judiciary uses that term and writing judicial opinions, and so, whenever we're talking about native communities, those terms come up a lot and I'd say: you're completely fine to use the term indian country when referencing the land. I am referring to the communities. I think tribal nations or tribal communities is probably the best terminology to be using to help create that designation of exactly who? It is we're talking about in the language that our nations leaders are using themselves. Yet we were, I mentioned, is poor. air, but we're on noon of island the bering sea, one time in its the arm. It's the.

caused the people on the mainland. Are the you pick. This is his right. Back on the on our new back. They they are cherubic. Yes right, and they were a cheap ask him. Oh nine, all like him. I later life eyes corrected from people who say like it's a dry tori term, it's a pejorative and music you're wrong fish. It was given to them and you'll hear people our like they knew it and you can't say the word eskimo versions, edward eskimo, and I asked them toothpicks, whose columns those stupid gas kimono said what what is your preferred turn and he goes over not ask eskimo on what the hell. I am an was adamant in that case too, That was hit like that's what he preferred to be calm, sweaty, that's his people were known as it so I felt it in his weird situation, little bit where people in the lower forty eight are reading your use of that word. in a way

is aligned with how he treated We spoke of and viewed himself, you can either like right. Either right by the local or you're. by this maybe ill informed idea from the outside about what people are simple the call themselves that they wanted things hams with a lot of votes get like an were opened black sea in some areas, but people get pissed. One is It's ok! It's complicated to figure out what name people like to hell with it I'll just say whatever I want, because those people can get their stories straight. You know or some such thing, and so I, our little more fact of connally, hopefully to be able to ask in not be not and not be offensive and now be offensive and asking right right and ultimately you can't go wrong there. You know I if, if someone asked me for lets, you know you're single piece of advice:

they just ask just like you said I mean there are I I know tribal citizens who referred to themselves exclusively as indians, nine other tribal sit in citizens who take offence to that and refer to themselves exclusively is needed american and then also you know, depending on where you are in the world. Different tribal communities in different countries might refer to themselves, as native is aboriginal and ye slew of other terms, and I think the safest thing you can ask but coming from my angle, and those of us who work in and around and with the law, we use that term in an indian country specifically because that's the term used in the law, not necessarily because it's the term, we prefer Now are our interests, as you know,. but around the two Sovereign nation will often come around with that. reservations.

Often have on their while of management. Adams right, so you go down, and here you gotta, there's some states? Where am I be illegal, to hunt black bears with hounds then on a reservation. It is legal to hop library, how's, or they have completely different season structures and yet, separate licence. Like there's, there's reservations here in montana uk, you need to go by a tribal hunting license or guy as well hear the term you like, because it's a sovereign nation and your need to like you, don't need. You can talk Only two like talk about it in through the lens of just wildlife management, but but tom explain what we mean when we say sovereign nation gets a great question and you know I think it's it's a topic that not a lot of people really fully understand, because its

so complex and in a lot of ways don was foreign to us and doesn't come up a lot in. You know basic educational courses as we're coming up. We, we learn a lot. I think in elementary school and high school about this idea of federalism, and what that means is this conversation in this discourse between the united states, federal government as a whole and then the fifth? states and their relationship between them and states are actually their own, separate sovereign entity and that's why, when you go into a given state, maybe you travelling and you go to Montana. For example, you might not be from Montana, but you still expected to abide by montana laws, and that's because Montana is their own. Sovereign entity in tribes are rare.

the same way in the way that comes about is because, during the era of colonization, the united states often entered into treaties were tribes, and when you look it when it is that the united states signed the treaty or enters into a treaty with another nation, it's just that they only signed a treaty with another nation, and so in signing a treaty. We recognise a given group as a sovereign community, and so if the united states wants to enter into a tree the with a community, that's in south america or that that's in africa. They are inherently in doing so, most often recognizing that group, or they have already recognized that group as it's own sovereign nation, and so the treaty concept is really important in indian country, because It's a constitutionally recognised contract between two sovereign nations.

So when we understand that we see that the united states is actually this really unique land where, where a body of three sovereigns, we have the united states federal government, we have the states and then we have tribes, and these treaties between the united states and tribes are all protected underneath the constitution and they exist, as the judiciary has told us, the supreme law of the land. And so it's really critical to tribal communities who want to be able to exercise some regulatory authority like you're, mentioning being able to control some of the wildlife management on their lands to have these treaties or other agreements that establish them as federally recognized tribes. So this concept of federal recognition is

important, because when the united states a to federally, recognise a tribe whether that was done decades ago or whether it's done today and it still is happening today, more and more tribes are becoming federally recognised. It sort of entitles the tribe to have all of these powers that they have traditionally exercised to control certain elements of the land they occupy and that is designated for them and held in trust for them. By the federal government and there's a shockingly large number. I think for a lot of people of these federally recognise tribes. I know just talking with some colleagues in folks who are necessarily thoroughly solved in the conversation around indian country. Maybe they learned what whatever the public school system taught them coming up through elementary school inside and when they ask me about

no is is native american is the idea of indian communities. It all pretty uniform, as it homogenous and a lot of folks are shocked, to find out just how many tribes there are that are distinct, sovereign nations. day in the united states is actually five hundred and seventy three distinct federally recognise tribes. If to put that to me, if you to put that to me in one of the options was like way less than a hundred hours that warehouse and a hundred right, then I think you know I would argue that power with a majority of americans. Would not a lot of us are growing up near communities that have explanation nearby and even for that are again is usually only exposure to a few tribes and it's difficult to consent,

realized that within the united states we have like I said earlier. We have fifty distinct sovereigns in all of the states and then within that there's five hundred and seventy three additional independent sovereign nations and that all exist under the purview of The united states, federal government and these tribes all have, their own laws they can set up there regulations, they can decide. What is the process for being deemed a citizen of that nation and then what rights you're entitled to as a citizen of that nation and a lot of people are also in a shock to see the extent of what it means to be sovereign. The fund. That kind of share with a lot of peoples that tribes if they want to, and none to my knowledge do, but they could prevent their own money, They could form their own military if they wanted to and they can trade with other nations and a lot of tribes today, just as a means of economic.

Development are doing a great deal of contracting in development work with other nations? Besides the united states, in terms of building up in bolstering their own economies and in trade, with other nations, and this again is just all a very meaningful exercise of what it means to be sovereign. Even in a way that goes beyond just their borders and their land we are we cover in all over the years. We cover fair about the whoever's running the. part of interior because that department oversees the vast majority of our public lands? We talk a lot about the old one zinc. He came in with tromp and sort of a lotta expectations around inky as an avowed hundred angler Nan his tenure there did not.

Go real. Well, is replacement, was bernhardt There was not a hand wringing earlier. With bernard because use common from the action industries, but one of doing ill, There are some areas where we definitely had disagreement, but in my view, was pretty secretary dear, did a lot of good work in some important places was supporting other areas, but a lot of good stuff. And one the respect of the conservation community because he was forthright If he was going to go against you on something, he would save you a lot of time. I just know some talk. This is like the reputation he's going to go against Jan something he'd save you the time by saying he's. Gonna go again seen, there's nothin, it's gonna happen If there's room to move, he tell you room to move. Let's talk it's He was regarded as like a good person to deal with. You might not win everything but

With the conservation community, cordial relationship forthcoming, well informed, respected adversary. Where need be, What's your take on on binds appointee deb Helen I will point out first native american gone secretary and jerry, and so I should like to explain. kind of like why that matters cause there's. I talk about public lands, man. But there's a well blamore that the secretary interior does beyond that they have implications for the fact it

hale and his arm native right and yeah. It's a great point that you bring up the disc. You know the vast scope of what it is. The department of the interior actually handles right, and so you know I'd say looking back at that idea. We just talked about which is tribal sovereignty. What sorta is the next step right? Okay, it a try today. Let's say they get recognized today and they go through the process, which is a quite extensive one, to receive that federal recognition. And now the tribe is, in this position where they have, hopefully some land set aside for them. They have their community. Maybe it's a community of both native and non native individuals, tribal citizens, non tribal citizens on the same land and the question comes up

how are they now coordinating with the federal government on any relevant issue that might come up and the department that is assigned by the executive branch to handle, that is, the department of the interior and the under the department of the interior exists? The bureau of indian affairs, the ero of indian education in several other sub agencies that are handling and addressing issues pertinent to indian country. In so when deb haaland was selected and appointed as secretary of the interior and subsequently confirmed it felt like I, I would say, the general consensus in indian country was just this huge success, because it means a lot of things:

First of all, to have representation at one of the highest levels of government is just a huge win for any community, because it it does a lot for younger generations who are looking up and seeing people that are may be from their community or look like them understand some of the things they ve gone through in their life to see that leadership up there. But beyond that, it can be very meaningful to have someone who understands the needs of travel communities having a hand and directing this sub agencies. Like the bureau of indian affairs, how they serve those communities, and so it was a really big when but even beyond, who she is as a native individual. You know she comes military family. She grew up in a public schooling system. She's parent and she's in have been known to express some of her

raise both with her family growing up in her family now, spending law A time on public lands and her family themselves were, and she herself for our hunters, So it's something that for me, is the native individual, but also a concerned hunter and angler. Who wants to see someone who's a responsible individual heading, the helm of what is the agency responsible for my access to public lands, and it is encouraging to me to see an individual who has some of those similar passions that I do, and you know coming from new mexico before she became the secretary just as a congressperson Having that constituency of hunter anglers, it confirms for me that something that's on her mind surely is: is the rights of outdoorsman and all individuals to access their public resource, which we all share in ownership of

You know one of the things that comes out of the ALA nomination and I was damn guilty of acts that makes it seem like a negative. Is I do from my perspective? Okay, someone who's benefited quite a bit from the pub lands policy and availability that I've enjoyed in my life and my perspective, I had a kind of our own. Meaning that. recognising that that this could be something great for other people, but humans are office right away like oh, is going to mean a radical reappraisal of priorities. Ok, like we ve come to what we can do like I've come to notice. Where the secretary of Interior, the actions they take that have implications for the areas were I go. In the things I go and do and

most of the other day that the that the secretary tear overseas, the beer of indian affairs in the bureau, education, so whatever they're doing there like? I was a paying attention to it: I didn't know light of narrow scope of where they focused their time when I knew that someone can be coming in with perhaps like very different priorities, I had a and so I have a bit of a not all of them were about the stuff that they do, that that I I think of when I think of the job. Is that- Are they gonna be? paying attention there. You know for people there have in that little bit of, like e mails is going. What what's your? Ah you know? What's your what's your guidance or or feedback their hats it's a great question in an I've heard those same concerns, and you know both.

From people that are tribal citizens and even folks who are non travel citizens. You know, regardless of the walk, a life that you find yourself in You want to make sure that the person who's you know directing the department of the Interior who's responsible for so much is going to be your catering to your needs and and accurately and responsibly, representing all people of the united states. That said, I think it's important to know what it is that the interior as a whole and specifically the secretary of the we're here now. Deb Olin can actually do in that role, because I think a lot of times you know, depending on which media an individual consumes. You can hear some pretty big ideas of they're going to make these tremendous changes have just an enormous scale that are going to impact your daily life. And it's going to happen right now and you ought to be very concerned about it and in I think we can

quiet that alarm a little bit when we actually look into what these individuals are entitled to do under the constitution, and so the site Criteria, the interior, if you know you go on department of the interior website, you do a little bit. A research you'll see that their role is described as doing this administrative responsibility. coordinating federal policy. And well that means is better policy gets here. down by our law makers, in other words congress and then congress passes that law. Does it just magically start working? You need people were actually putting it into play, am obviously you know we refer to that as the executive branch in the department of the interior falls under that? That's why the president gets to nominate the secretary of the interior, secretary holland's role is actually to

carry out what congresses intentions or her role does not extend beyond and actually putting laws into place and the executive branch does not make the law, and I think, a lot of folks get concerned that the secretary might make new laws or change laws, but legally she has no power to that the secretary of the is power only extends to implementation of laws and guiding right the tory agencies and their interpretation of that law, you know the I sort of use an example sometimes to describe this, as this idea of you have a restaurant chain right and Maybe I get hired is the manager of a given restaurant and I decide I'm gonna put in some certain, policies at my restaurant to make things a little more efficient to work. Better, maybe makes your folks get their food faster can have access to better. Sir

mrs etc, but when I hear your dams you're not going to get rid of the golden arches right. You can't get rid of artists. You're, not gonna, get rid of the big mac. No matter what mcdonald's you go to, you don't have a choice, you can you can own that franchise. You can manage it, but you don't get to make that decision. The people at the top Who are passing the laws making the policies they enact? That decision you can. You know you have a little bit of freedom in how you want to carry it out, and you know for sure it's it's. We need to be concerned in active citizens in and keeping an eye on how the interior is actually carrying these laws out, but I think we can all rest assured that there's not going to be sudden significant change to our access to lands or to how individuals can use lands. Whether lands are going to get taken away. All that and if you look to the source of power of the interior, you'll see that where they have the

our to regulate, they have the power to navigate those laws but they're not making any new laws themselves hit me with your take on him. He would you take on land back the land back movement. Now, when I hear it like his view. That arm any given year. I would like to see an increase in the number of acres. Open to the american public. Ok, an increase, in particular through a lens on efficient, like an increase in areas where we can go on fish, but I do not need to pay trespass. Bees leases whatever, but this increase. I hear and back and I'm like. That must mean a decrease. and leg over the girl said earlier. I laid my bias he's out earlier right. La I have a human tendency to view things What am I mean for me.

So, like you know, lula area by land back. This idea that we would take presume, It's taking got like public and because you not going we're not gonna. Give manhattan back to you, know the tribes. I I'd argosy argument for that, but I have a feeling we're not I about vat reprisals in about federal lance It didn't answer is not coming from is not coming from urban areas is not coming from. Suburban areas will be coming from open. Federal ants are maybe one way or another hit me with europe You could tell me I'm right and I should be scared like we're. Still, France be Very very afraid that his chicken yeah hit me with a hippie with what, if were a. Presumably, if we're going to hear more people are going to hear more about this. What are they going to hear more about you know, and you can you can you can buy us. It is more serves little you'd like

Well, you know I I would say just answer that question. What folks are going to hear? I you know I'm going to have to be candid and say folks are especially as this movement continues to gain. Traction folks are going to hear all manner of things and that's going to come from folks who are talking about this movement. Writing about the all have their own perspectives. That they're bringing to the table and again I would just Harsh in that little bit of hesitancy from just believing what you here right away, because they're gonna be folks who are talking about what they want to happen. And it might leave out the realities of what actually can happen so just kind of like what we are talking about with what the interior can do. As you might imagine it would it likely be a severe overreach of the department of the interior is power

to unilaterally decide that we're going to take a huge swathes of maybe they national park, land and just re designated as tribal land and give it up were tried. I have no problem with that that they do parts zero grapes for me, yeah I shall support it and so yeah, I think in times. Would I like to say, as you know, let's talk about what the land back movement is not an were. is not is just the federal government coming in taking a look at a big swath of land and saying you know what let's go ahead and give this away. I'm feeling charitable today, let's go ahead and find a given tribe who maybe had rights to this land at one point and just give it away what it is requires. A little bit of a look back in history

and I was telling you earlier about how tribes receive federal recognition and now tribe, sign treaties will often times the reason for these treaties was that during the colonial era and during western expansion, the united states came upon a tribe that was occupying lands that they had historically occupied for generations and the united states government may be said. We really need the land, because our people are spreading further and further west and there's a lot of conflict and we gotta find a way to peaceably. Settle this conflict, and so the government would do is sit down at the table with tribes and sign a treaty and generally what would happen is that the tribes would agree to see that land to the federal government in exchange for

another piece of land somewhere else, and that's where we get this idea of reservations. The federal government said: if you give us the slain, you have now we're going to reserve for you a piece of land, in perpetuity. That will be yours and yours alone, and you get to control of sovereign nations now it. Obviously, there are a lot of times at those treaty agreement and people sitting at the table. If the tables weren't, having the same understanding of the treaty terms and often times tribes were taken advantage of, and but the treaties nonetheless were signed. A lot of tribes were given these reservations, and now today we see some tribes that are occupying those reservations over sense, but on occasion there were times where the federal government subsidies

We came and said: look where we know we promised you this reservation, but actually we're going to need that land back and the federal government, then through congress would pass a law that, with this established the reservation and take it away breaking those treaty promises, and that has now subsequently led to this land back movement. And I would just say you know this is sort of a very simplistic explanation. It certainly more complex, but there are tribes today and people today who believe when this land was set aside and promised in perpetuity and then subsequently taken away that those tried should have a right to come to the fore well government and asked to have that land back in so again it doesn't I mean just giving land away for no reason the people who are acts who are actually on the ground floor of this land, back movement or folks, were saying. You promised us this land and you gave it to

and then he took it away or maybe you promised it never gave it to us at all. And so now we're just ask The federal government to do no more than just fulfil the promises they made in these treaties, which again, as I mentioned, earlier are considered by the united states. Is the supreme law of the land and so in that way it just makes sense for some people, and it has proven to be a very divisive subject, and I think you know, in my opinion, what the land back movement can mean in a productive way. is having tribes who are responsibly handling their lands going to the federal government the treaty agreements and saying we want to exercise control over this land once again in a regulatory fashion to carry through on what was promised us, but it doesn't mean, even if that tribe gets at land back,

suddenly it's gone forever. You may have seen driving along the road. I know you travel out. You had a lot you're talkin about up in alaska. You ve been on different tribal lands enough if you're driving from California to arizona coming come out. The phoenix where I am you'll see a sign on down the ten says now entering the, rather river indian tribes, reservation and you're just driving through it. I promise you and you're driving through that land you're not going to see a bunch of walls put up and oftentimes? I think folks who have been on tribal lands. They probably haven't seen a huge, huge wall surrounding the borders of the reservation and that's because most tribes, just like states, allow people to freely come on and off, and even if land goes back to a tribe, that land is held in trust for

the tribe, by the federal government and now the tribe, has rights to actually carry out and meaningfully apply their own regulatory regime for things like wildlife management for things like hunting and fishing, it's no different than if you drove to another state to do some hunting and angling you're just now doing it on a trip on tribe's land. Maybe it means going to a different website to get your permit and, but ultimately, I think, there's a lot of concern that this means you're going to lose out thus forever and I'd say my response to that would be a this. Isn't a quick process, it's no unilateral decision where someone can come in and take the land away. It would be a long and meaningful conversation and two should that land be transferred to the tribe chances are you will still have have a meaningful way to access that land and still engage in recreation on it? Just under the regulate

If the tribe, as opposed to the state, can you hit real, quick on arm and reinstate the lower? Forty eight on is cause. It gets infinitely complicated in Canada gets the complicated in alaska, but extra privileges, the tribal hunters, would you seem to hear a lot about tat, I don't know nothin in on when you in cranworth. talk in earlier, you had a number the tribal hunters of the town intake take of deer and Elk tribal hunters account for two percent as giving qur'anic a great example of sort of the how a tribe in a state can work together and a great example of that is the state of washington and and often times you get. This notion that tribal members have all these extra privileges and because of those extra privileges, they're significantly harming the

life or the wildlife take overall in that given area and in the state of washington, where you have a very high number of tribes for this, the size of the state itself in a large number of tribal citizens who are going hunting there are actually only taking. As you mentioned, two per cent of the harvest of all dear and Elk, I believe the washington department of fish and wildlife release him statistics in an inch me twelve. They said that non indian hunters took approximately twenty nine thousand dear, whereas treaty tribal hunters harvested about four hundred. Ninety five and in that same period, none in the honors took about seven thousand. Two hundred oak and treaty tribal hunters harvested about three hundred and sixty five and why She turned again as a state where you're here, in a lot of that that,

jargon around they get these extra rights. Maybe they had, you know, can access lands? I can't access they're going to wipe out the population, but when you look at the numbers, it just isn't the case and in fact the what state of washington has said that most of the kurds there are a very healthy and be the biggest threat to the health of those l. Kurds is the loss of habitat in the state and when we look at where that occurs, its occurring not on tribal lands but on state lands in his is often times a product of state development and infrastructure, on traditional habitat of those animals and of those herds and the tribes themselves are often the ones who are advocating the most heavily for

new programs and new infrastructure that actually helps protect these animals. So you know we were talking about these concerns right. A lot of non indian hunters have around extra privileges that may be some tribal citizens exercise and whether or not they are extra privileges. Just this general concern that you know tribal nations and tribal hunt this might be harvesting more animals than any one else or- and we just address that, but there's still that concern of woe. What? If I want to hunt in an area that is run by a tribe and falls under their sovereign jurisdiction and regulatory authority for hunting in fish and I am concerned that I'm not gonna have the means, or

I'm not going to have the opportunity to do that because I'm not a tribal citizen- and this comes up a lot in different states that have larger tribal pop. patients and being here in arizona where a third of the land mass is actually sovereign, tribal land. It's a huge concern for hunters here, but I can Are you, the arizona actually has one of the most fascinating examples of tribes, doing excellent management of wildlife resources and here it. Let's say you want to go on a black bear, hunt the state of affairs I don't like many states and- and it's it's own topic in itself- has prohibited hunters from hunting with hounds at certain times of the year and they've prohibited individuals from hunting bears the abating at all times of the year and

so you go up to perhaps north northern arizona or central arizona, where there's larger, be a bear populations, and maybe you've been hunting with hounds in the spring, for example, every year for decades, and now the laws passed, and you can't do that. You can only do it in the What some hunters are now realizing is that they can actually go onto tribal lands, and a great example of this is the fourth apache reservation here on earth Where they allow hunting with hounds year round and just a few it's a guy was actually out on a hot, and I was bright along the border of the fort fourtou patchy reservation and first thing in the morning you're some hounds going crazy and I hear him going down from this ravine. A couple miles away, and I look over in that direction. I realise its unreserved. landon. Maybe that party that think- and here very fair yeah call. It shows up. Just that's awesome. You know hundred decided that somebody wanted to do here. She want

the dew and a gun contact with the tribe found a tribal guide and they now get to continue in that practice. If there are hound hunter able to do that year round, specifically because there eliza the resource of having a tribal hunting regime really next door, and it's the same thing with baiting. If you want to bait bears power, we may feel about that. You had your entitled to go, do that on certain tribal Lanceor, nerve zone and again the white mountain path, she nation will allow you to come on the land and just like you would, if you're out of state resident new good good, There is on, and by an out of state permit over the counter. You just go on reservation by your non member permit and you can then go and carry on debating, hunt or accountant and the same thing applies and tribes throughout the

asian and not only that, but you and you know it again- brings up that issue of wealth. The tribe is allowing it isn't that just killing numbers of animals for the rest of us. On the sun I went on. I spoke to a game warden who used to be a guide, and he actually told me said you know we call all the bears around here. Raspberries cause the best ones that you know the top bears that people hunt around here. We track some of their movements and we see they're coming over from the reservation, often times or Elk. It's the same thing and when you look, top ranks in a hurry may feel about ranking of animal suffering. Taunts in that are harvested in the? U s: every single year, several of the top there.

harvested are a state or all coming out of the four apache reservation in so you're. Looking at the success rates on the reservation versus after reservations, success rates just continue year after year to be incredibly high, you can do research and find statistics on heard health on the rest. Patient and some of the best in the nation, and so often times are seeing now that the tribes way of man during the land and managing the wildlife resource is often superior to that of the state and folks you wanna do some of the best hunting in the country can go to it. I purchase a permit just like they would anywhere else grab themselves a guide if that's what they want to do and have just an incredible hunt and some have at least hear some of arizona's, most beautiful country and this is great. I got like three million questions. There are now to have yon more at the summit that it actually some areas where some

in the areas where I'd be like yeah, but what about? What about er, don't you, but what about? by anna or let you go. For now, under the agreement that year and a half to come on now, and then to arm debate. And explain stuff to us and in and give your take on stuff. But I don't love you. people to do our own if you, if I say to you like aids, people how to find you, you will get the great emails you get emails from behind assholes. So after you, man I tell you how to find you absolutely around yeah, I I believe that you know it's up for everyone to decide the extent to which they wanna help educate. The committee they, but something on passionate about. I am always happy to entertain questions. You can find me on social media happy to give you some contact information. Do hawks my people. This is a guy that came on in good faith.

In the spirit of of education cooperation, to explain some stuff. So as much as you might be sitting there with your hackles up about everything's gonna be different, we invited him a great job and he's not. I get hold of them, but give him my The conversation go it. So you can look me up on on social media among most platforms at Jacob Broussard, I'm sure. If you listen into the pod gaseous, We see my name, I imagine in the gas description yeah and if you feel like sending me an email. You go ahead and reach out to me as well. I'm happy to give them revert to the mediator team, and they want to facilitate any contact like that. You can feel frida. yeah. Good ideas, corey africans, who runs our email in box hill.

governing where it needs ago. I alright thanks man, This is this is great. I, like I learned a lot darling. You are still gotta But what about The rest anymore. About anytime. I share yeah me on there's the watchmen.