« The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 281: Sacred Seeds


Steven Rinella talks with Taylor Keen, Clay Newcomb, Phil Taylor, Corinne Schneider, and Janis Putelis

Topics discussed: Denisovan DNA and scooped teeth; Clay on The Joe Rogan Experience; Montana Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation Sweepstakes; the effect of drought and heat on wildlife in the west; a 2nd Amendment tax in San Jose; the death of Bruno the Bear; how Steve slept in a cave in WY that was slept in by a crazy cowboy who ate people; Clovis Hunters; when smallpox wipes out up to 95% of the population; Cahokia; the race of hairy giants and Bigfoot as important to Indigenous lore; Omaha--the people who move against the current; Steve having less than average Neanderthal DNA and being sour about it; the Ghost Dance prophet; a major bust of blackmarket collecting and trading of Native American objects; Sacred Seeds; and more.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Me you hot gas corner, you surely severely bout. My gaze underwear can predict anything presented by first light. Go farther stay long care by jointly by very special gas taylor, keen omaha cherokee crow, That's correct in part dennis open, which will get into I am I haven't, part, early, hominid and then, and then, as all the tsar But yet we hear dennis open its different right Because you know you talk about
What do I mean and wonder folk like me, want to throw a little bit neanderthal. I've got but west europeans. Are you got low that you do we get to that? I believe your boy nodded at I'm not really clear what denizen is other than I know it's another hominid like I did affair. Better research. Last night, I really didn't know what it was You I'm not saying on the expert now, but I had the same question. Just If you were a deer today, if you were, here today wandering around, like let's say, you're whitetail deer. One around me, but oh there's, another kind of deer. It's a milder yeah there's that are kind of years of black tail deer and. once upon a time, you could have been a hominid walking around in women. Oh hey, it's another kind of hominid, we'll get to that. Clay rogan gas with that one. The air was for sure, really unique, I was a little bit of a quick. I got bored minded oh wow,
but you can't I just have got through. Yet I didn't quit. I thought you said you did quit because you got bored. I was like well, okay, if I, if that was true, that was true and it's not. I wouldn't have told you that yeah. Let me give me a break, Artist said something like on our said. Some like Your job clay there's allows greater awkward Now I know I know I thought it was good, enjoy hanging out with them. Oh yeah and and- and I didn't get to spend a lot of time with Joe aside from just in the podcast, but Unique experience going down there, I mean you know just be on his body cast was probably the it was. It was less less intimidating than I thought it would be, and I I won't lie. I was slightly intimidated, but then just in a normal cutaway, but what's what in their jaws. Great gotta talk to great interviewer, he's very dear he's very generous ungracious? I did not know. he
new about me. I didn't know what we're going to be talking about. You know that The conversation flowed along a pretty standard like clay, newcomb, ta in point. You know deal other than if there were a few review curve balls which were fun but now Jos, like he's very soon, I feel at ease as energy interviewer he's very sensitive to things. It sounds like you pick up things floated through the air I I could show him your thumbprint and he be. He tell you bunch of like he tell you bunch. person jump saying like you, could listen to episodes of bare greece. Podcast listen like two episodes bear, but greece progress in china, really, they understand what to talk about what to ask they very sensitive. That way. She can't tell It's like there's a good news, good news and bad news. I wanna talk about drought and heat, but I also to talk about the tr cp land access appreciation thing. Here's the deal
This is a sound montana centric, but the understanding that is its not montana, in the state of montana? There's a program called the black management access programme. How it works is this: they take revenue, drawn from people buying hunting licences, ok and eighteen. Revenue and nay in list, private landowners, ranchers farmers, other private landowners, list private landowners into the black manage programme once land, is in the black man's program. You hunt it for free. So not resident resident. I mean every it we're Tom opening from elk turkey's live on these places and you come in hot bottom. and I think, a lot like a lot of things that are cool such as national forests and other stuff alot of people, kind of think that it must have one day fallen from outer space. Narratives and then I realized the sort of like effort that goes into it. The way
noticed you get paid to unroll a black man's, but trust me, it is not enough to offset the millions in an hassle and risk it just like like no one is going into block management? Ah licking their lips about how rich they're going to get it just doesn't work that way. It is it's an act of generosity to put your land and block management. We get this idea with bob from my brother who was involved in another cart incarnate would you say, carnation ethic kind of condensed milk What do you say later? Ass, carnation, the carnation another incarnate gazeta reincarnation which we gotta talk about, because there Think about reasons in doing so. Wear had as some other day stay tuned. For that that's totally fill I'm going to feel get my interest meter out when I talk about enemy, neon, Phil, hates that interesting theater. I was I saying, oh so
we're doing to thank all the tiara cp montana farm and ranch hunter access, appreciation. Sweepstakes of finely crafted title mind you again montana? I think I came up with that or it was like this is why halves and three people try to come up with a title together. It's called the month. In a farm ranch hunter access, appreciation, sweepstakes, we, have gone. What? What? What? What are you smoking about? Their fill. just a mouthful of a name, so great name, I like because lays it all out. You'll need a sob title. The name like there is sweepstakes donation. So we got all kinds of crazy things. You can win tons of things and you buy tickets, and then what we can do is to take all the money that we get from this. Every last penny, we're doing this in conjunction with e r c p theodore roosevelt conservation partnership, in conjunction with tee our cp you by these tick.
And you went about your stuff, I never did, all the money and buy things to bank p, bull who enroll their land and block management, we're not talking about sending them like coffee, mugs and whatnot like buying farm and ranch equipment, gay mechanisms firmly, no like automatic gates. F, shelters. Stop people need help him get stuff. They actually need that's going on right now up to win croon endure by august, The first twenty twenty one at midnight, eastern standard, five, Gets you want entry between tenant Twenty four entries you can get for four box. If you buy more when you five entries again for three bucks, a piece you can only do fine hundred entries per person do this list like when I try
chain saws meet grinders. Allow me, I crave your knives for first light kit, vinyl harness kit, javelin problem. By part one? I try to load all the things like smoke comes out of my computer, but so many things are available. We gotta turn the link, my god, that's good idea. Current tell. Its support, don t, r, c p, dot, org forward, slash, be em, a So if you want montana and use blm and if you live here, you are geared almost guarantee, damn t you do or you visit and use block management jump in and start one of these in your old state. to reward and bank people who opener lands up can now onto the bats holy cow. The heatwave in extreme drought is so bad. The air dropping.
The air dropping water to keep bighorn sheep live in nevada, nevadas department of wildlife, replenishing desert, bighorn sheep's only source of water for miles intervention, animal populations will decline. Ecosystem viability is threatened. Nevadas experiencing intense, draw for the second year in a row. Last year. I don't know this law, vegas went two hundred forty days without measurable rain, how this year, forty per other state is in, was called exceptional drought, which is the its level of drought according to national, whether service Elk. two leo in California, was a popular. The tool, the outcome, California, their dying from lack of water of the isolation there. Historic water source. They would use at this point these national seashore. How that
raise rees. What is that? I think it sprays point rays. There's been ongoing issue where the Elk are using water and feed that was meant for cattle, so they put affair but only some these l can get at this fence came a third counterfeiting. about a third of the population dotted dehydration. Because then I only water source on their underground, they can get around the fence, not to defence, but around all the skids mean our food and water This is a tricky one, I feel like you get into it well one. You have like a cattle lease, which is you know the reason the fence went up because the Elk are competing with these cattle, and so you gotta start think about whether you know what's important? You know these animals that we all on or someone's private cattle
know and again we don't know the nuances. I know they have a great. They have a grazing lease, they have a service, they have a grazing lease, but most places I mean here. We have grazing leases on public land, you dont fence out wildlife, So that's interesting. So it was for sheer public land, its national parks service, land derby, ensued. So the historic the history Water on their side of the fence usually, would have been enough, but it wasn't this year, yeah one of the you know, I gather it's like this, like highly fenced area and I also gather that it's like a pretty managed heard from the other not able to get to water, listen man. I've tried this a lot. I've tried,
round tell myself, but all the insane he everywhere I've tried sit round, be like there's. No such thing as climate change, though such as climate change, just tat. But some bitch man after a while, You can hide hot around and hide it's it's. It's like getting hot. It's gonna be bad for wildlife. It's just you can say I don't think you can sit around saying it's not. You can, Like I dont care, you can argue bow causing you can argue about the cause, but is not, if you like, to hunt and fish changes common near here, sound Another interesting thing. This is it. This is crazy. One gallon murphy sentenced amusement.
San Jose, san Jose, california, pass a gun like a really weird gun control measure that its very puzzling to me. Basically, Did you own guns, you pay a tax in the tax is supposed to offset what it cost the city to address, gone, related phone call, gun related crime So you can imagine someone is gallagher peacefully by the coroner tucked under the Shed than your planet on you know, do an armed robbery and the like die forgot to send him a tax money. come on now anyway, whereas those areas liability, insurance, thereby liability, jews are you, can you want? A parallel what san jose? California, ok, as I said the parallel thought it would be like if you you, one could make the arctic and say the first
rights, cost taxpayers money less, it is about those there there's a protest with the protest of There is a massive protests to protest, or can you some people will say there's a massive protests to protest the out but the presidential election and there's a of counter protest to protest people, we're testing the outcome of the hence elections. We have all these people with mixed ideologies. Exercising first men rights guy. There's a police present. There's a police presence, they caught them, there's cost a business because businesses close was casa. Please, because please come out monitor it. There's, there's community meetings that are set aside to plan like safe protest spaces to cordon people off its very expensive, so someone could say if you want to exercise First amendment rights: you need the attacks,
because it costs us money to have first many rights and those they like boy, the peace. People are committing crimes and burning down buildings. Why should they be paid tat tape, pay attacks, to which I would say wonderful point here, It's absurd, it is absurd. Yeah seems does the punishment a punishment. Illegal gun owners, issues grasp and so on, when murphy made the point that it's it's like a path towards only that the rich and privilege have weapons. those who can afford, like moonshine appalachians, wait till the next part guest it's very clear. Can you give us the update on Bruno the bear. So first tell us what you told us before: over. So Bruno. The bare were data. Report on him on this podcast. He came from west, hudson
traveled. All the way down to arkansas gay national attention going through crop fields, jesse that taylor demon he again national attention that this black bear walk. Corn fields and stuff and he was extremely and an alarmed by people, so people would be Masses of people would be following him and he just kind of minds on business, and he now for god- ended in a cigar. get nuisance trouble, unlike thousand mile journey how long was termed theer Tom you're about how why he do so. There is there's lots of theories about why, It's bear made this journey. Any of the biologists chimed in or were like you know, bears only travel that far. If they're looking for new home ranges, new mates or food, there was fear Is that per so he was.
in from the north to arkansas. We have a bare population arkansas and he walked across all this country that did not have resident bear populations, so there the theory that he climbed on a boat on the mist, hippy river, a grey. Barge and was Do try and climb into my garbage can last night. I believe there is a theory that he climbed into A grain barge in travel up north and got off the barge, which is bizarre. You know prolonged and then he was just coming home. He was coming home, I'll go home in bottle the river corridor they are homing. Instinct is really strong like when they trap bears like that bad is very rarely don't come back to where they came from. I thought only a good platform: kids movie yeah, but will make it a dog. The gets lost on vacation darted already, so this bear. He wintered in northern arkansas. As I understand it, this ordeal
the last I wrote tat. He was just in northern arc and people were hand. My mom was texted me saying clay. Please don't kill bruno Because I'm arkansas is people have, we are able were very worried about bruno show, one open, arkansas users, the he could have gone into a hunt area, yeah, that's right, and in so now this. I don't have all the details on, but he was basically trapped as stand it in arkansas, potentially in Missouri he may have gone back overland missouri. He was trapped by guy in fish and relocated to northern louisiana, because based Lay the bears out of arkansas spreading and like all directions: southern missouri, northern louisiana, east taxes, south eastern oklahoma and for whatever reason I chose to release him in louisiana sad story, boys. He got hit by A car in louisiana on tuesday and they had to euthanize him now so Bruno's dead, are the things you see man yet
No doubt there were There are already very that he was that he was a amber because of how the usual he was with his. How interact with boldly and aim like not like habituated, but ten like a circus bear yeah like somewhat like it was a bear that had been like rule or sell them, but that I don't buy that ages, zero, fewer human cynthia, whereby one have survived. No anna timber would have gone into the somebody's refrigerator in their house. What was so amazing travelled that far never gotten trouble ass, though they were trying to do in a favour by taken him. The louisiana so long live on east. Then there are trying. It is not common for to go north and south and their migrations right just knocked out and are just not that I mean they might travel. You know there's
documentation, the missouri in arkansas bears travel unlike hundred and fifty miles, but a thousand miles is very, and it's just not heard of. Maybe he was an and evolved bear it was kind of an emissary or an ambassador, yeah yeah, gone for. The bears per airs uses out. You movement scout there The substance vertical vital, combat dont go south Yeah, it's about that mount lanyard. Tell me about that last week, as with our body Bart George and we're film in his mouth. nine hazing, studying that he's doing over in the north is spoken in washington. Riad explain role, oh yeah, I remember we talk to you. You know after me, in there and hang out with his whole crew for a week couple times now I feel like we should go in dubai gas with whole crew and chit chat with them. Cause he's got bruce duncan As you know, is you know that
real wonder of this world I found other day bar things that he is the man who living that is treaty, most cats in this country right now who, at roughly fifteen hundred cats reed, because all that research and government were in just the annulled, outfitting is done and the fat he's been doing it for over fifty years hum Pretty and I've got to names a million say their names but he showdown does he want cat. Lady trophy Should I don't know about that? and then Jeff blood is the while I especially for the counties of their very interesting guide and trap and endorse his whole life, but as bar still with the cows, both job So the cows, my tribe, is doing they're, the ones that are finding this we do in the study, but he's working in cahoots.
with our washing department of game and fish and then, like I said, the Stevens and cameron name the other county now, but the sheriff's office a lot of people are kind of chipping in to help on the study? But what are you trying to do is because they're having just that they've got a real uptick in depredations And human outline conflict in it actions, and so he came up The study to see of hazing might help just kind of keep the mouth alliance like away from humans so how is doing? Is they catch a lion they put a collar on it, They come back a week later. They know exactly where the line as they walked the lion with a speaker on march chest on entertain off his back back with play in the meat eater, so he still plays the podcast of the lions yeah yeah. No, I got it while the problem is, the lions are going to hang out cause they're, so interested yeah. Give those lines interesting feature film. On top on the car
put interest meter dialogue on the let's right, while while SAM was explaining the lobster debate, that was recently on we two within think: eleven yards allow maritime LAO yeah, I mean of data, at eleven yards, because you see it yet no cause she's like in, like you know three or four furs that were all bushy in or around the bottom they're, not the first where'd. You know she was that close yeah we're looking at the gps, like thirty three feet, away to see or bust out of their own now she was not any of the three lines that we did. That too, that we walked up to the other. One was like fifty then one ran like seventy yards, and now what did we slipped out? You never heard you're kidding me it's trippy, so how many of you walked binders, while the closest while Levin yards left yeah. And then that one lily who has no living in this area, that, if you
down the hill five minutes you're on, like. it's a rural highway but right on the outside. Our road is basically like this little community. Unlike like a lake community with all these little houses in condos and stuff, and there's a trail system where this catherine hang out so that cat sits there in the trees. listens to die, in humans and stuff go by her and in cars all the time. Unlike totally this, you know, that's her home. yeah my wilds aways there. Also What are you trying to seize if hazing work, so when he comes back now, he's got his cat on a gps collar He walks. Words are playing the part gas at a decibels, which is quite lot loud mind you mean it's like my voice project like I'm excited, is probably equal, the roughly eighty decibels and does it feel like distinctly sort of post modern that that they will in future be listening to you talking about them list
into this. Show it's like staring into a mirror and there's a mirror behind yeah. This is getting deep, deep. God is totally lost, yeah, I'm just trying to stay on track so that everybody can understand how this question that won't throw us off that this particular cat had he been in trouble before She had not been so we're hazing, a cat. That's not been in troubled and no cause in in these parts or those parts where I was if they've been in, actual trouble leg. There's been a depredation there, yet gotcha here Can I mean a general thing that bruce told me the bruise, you too, can alone after that one when you know why captain had to some years ago had the first Fatality from outline first human fatality from outline and state history, then shortly after a month or two later
Oregon had its first human fatigue from my line, and ninety eight years may just doesn't happen. Ripeness. They have twice in one summer and to stay in any like why? What's going on So you want to draw conclusions from this, but maybe there's none to be drawn and when I put its bruce, I think when you think about that, On one hand is like this freak right, we'll go another hundred years and I wanna get killed by not one but there is something there what he he put out as this like in his whole career of doing work on line control for the state. In the early days of his career. If someone saw wine, you came out killed it. People didn't want em around and if you like, you'd, see one on your porch, it's a deadline, the matter for anything wrong, kill. The dog is dead, Is it as tolerance has increased and now
oh you know you don't dislike, kill every single line that cross the street in front of a car. He says it's probably a b that there's. This can be more interactions because our tolerance shifted and we don't dost off every single thing. We can dust off because I'm scared and there's a lot more lions, there's line or people a lot more people going into wild places. So And while I was learning ass wild because of you know us moving. To them in living in them. I'll tell you podcast guest, and I can't say but I know the guy that right down the line and gills? There have been serious dead, serious, a note the track down what my alone, because the part the lion and I dont know if it was the tell it in washington or org wall. If it is Washington we're tunnel, we know the same person. Well, I think I think, this was the organ lion and I know
the guy that went to that scene too that lying down and we went to the bureau the site where the person was told here. He said it was a wild story really he was a it- was that the two mountain bikers know that wash This was a lady. This was missus if a woman- well, yes, yes, anyway blake yeah. You want to do one upsmanship on pocket. No, no! No, no marina, Keegan yahoo dunno hurry up yeah we've got to hurry up cause. I think we have a great one sitting right here across from us. We ran out of time here, so they they walk towards him. in this by gas and boards. Why? the gps and once the cat Lee it's bad or whatever its sitting or or sleeping at the moment. He marks that distance from him. To the cat, then he watches the catalan gps and see how far it goes home, afar fleas, which
he's taking other like environmental data point as well and base he's trying to figure out. energy is the cat willing to expand once has been and then consequently address been hazy multiple times. Is it willing to extend more energy because it doesn't want to go through the hazing again once he picks up those two data points they caught the dogs loose, which usually comfort. our far behind. However, far he had a wife to get to the lion. They track him to the weather. Fresh outline track is than they run the lion. It's usually over pretty quickly. They job line into a tree. The hazing, the first hazing actually is via paintball, so they'll sit there and pop up up up up many times is the cattle take it? The dogs are gone at this point and susan, crimes and jumps out between runs? That's it. They ve, that's the hazing than they were
That would minus the young paint balls three more times and see no they're, clogging collecting those data points of how close they get and how far the cat run before it start and chilled out. You know, after heard the meter pie, gas at eighty decibels in order to determine if there is a problem line. Is it possible to get it to change its behaviour without euthanize yeah? And again, it's probably never going to happen with problem lions, it'll proprietors had only lions it like what you are saying. cross. The street in is where there's a bunch of little kids land around or there is a lie, and it's been seen a couple times near a boy scout camp or whatever? sure but, like I said as soon as they have to help them not become problem lines, now, not there nor the smoke and as a very, very low tolerance for cats in public perceptions down. Is negative right now, cats and fortunately- and they are
be a lot of more happy with the way that the washing depart, fishing game has been handling it, and so there you know, that's why Jeff, I like it gets, they were only one of the girl. I want more lions yeah, it's it's socially your complicated by die see I primarily just at ass it or like in areas amongst people their scene and hopefully, they can pay them a little bit and keep him alive. Jupiter bottled this. Those superman all right so one day, it has been tried in the past of relocating lines that were problem, lions and again the solo research done and known about lines that people does. We just don't know enough yet right so a lot of times. They thought. Oh, it's like one lion causing the problem, you know, but they shoot a lion and then you know three. Two weeks later, you know in the same zone another sheep gets killed right, so it wasn't same line anyways. They they tried.
Relocating some one. I forget exact number, but it was up. There was like seventy five hundred miles. They moved it. The cat we like two days and it was back at the same farm, killed. Another chief and arab an ear tags or marked somehow they knew that it was the same cat but was in The thing is that it's from that journey, it's pads we're just worn off by there is almost no pad left on his paw. man, that is, they know. They know. Batman, wow, yeah, I don't know if I could pull that off feebly. Four main drop me I'd like to know from a biologist the mechanism that works and side of an animal tat, homing instinct, because it's got its picking up data from somewhere. I mean it's, not a minute. They're pick They have some there's something. happening, I'd like to know the mechanics. We had pet pigeons one time and in this the neighbour people complain bottom shit,
ways, house and whatnot in money, I had to go to work meeting. He will acquire ways lack what it was, but also honour. I was away. Go to overnight work, meaning they took the pigeon they cut him loose when he got home there already home, beat him home, but their famous for that a new paper published in the journal- nature details the release of new dna evidence extracted from sediment indent. Solve a cave. Oh, that's! What denizen name comes from right or is it nobody's or or vice versa- all! Ok, it's a cave siberia orders, but it did did the K forget name that, because of what's there or did the the the the humans humans get named, come home, Demons are named after the place oda as we don't really know what they were called.
Ok, so that's all! I wasn't that we knew we named it somewhere else. The dead man. There was a modern man that lived in the cave, that was somehow had a name that started with the with the d is understood. So they called it that kind cave. it's my understanding of it and then they went in and found the stuff and they called the people. That name of the cave. Is that what you remember? Yes, taylor, yep yeah, I slept in the cave, but not southern a cave. Well me they had been slept in oak. I replied. I slept in a cave unwelcoming. They had been slept in via some cowboy that went crazy and aids and people and the name it after him rights within their cave. You ever need anybody now, but you still young guy, we back up, New dna evidence extracted from sediment in Dennis, the cave in russian siberia,.
previous analysis of ancient dna extracted from fossils found and denis over cave have revealed that it was inhabited by neanderthals. But sometimes I think, they're back the thought before wiles tall neanderthal. Neanderthals falls dennis wovens and a hybrid of the two. But few fossilized few fossilize remains have been found in the cave sorts unclear when different groups visited and in what order. But what's the time periods do too long? ago now, this study provides a timeline of occupation with over seven hundred sediment samples dated from three hundred thousand to twenty thousand years ago. so the cave could sat there for quite a long time between visits hominids through
hundred thousand years ago, it's interesting right, I think, for the reasons that I have been a sylvan dna. We don't know the story of how an indigenous peoples came to the marriage truly during their stories about the baron straight theory. But when you fine dna going that far back in siberia in Siberia means that were different, in some sense, but we don't really know when indigenous peoples came here, but to have that antiquity of dna. That flows into me today is fascinating. That those right tell me, tell me what you mean by that, I mean like Are you saying that there was another they didn't there's other
Series of well, I know, there's other theories other than the bering land bridge. You know water access through the northwest. God forbid that indigenous peoples got on boats at some point figure that out yeah, but when you get into anthropology and John Wesley Powell and the Powell doctrine later on, but it just begs the whole question of how indigenous peoples got here, yeah do you do? Do that's good question? a question was interesting point. Do you? you can test or do you like if you look at some of the academic consensus, because the act A consensus, be unlike some point in time, proud believe less than thirty thousand years ago. Sometimes, Thirty, two! Twenty thousand years ago, the first americans The new world? Ok, What's now, north american south america visa.
some sort of land bridge that connected alaska siberia, like when you hear it like. Do you. A deal is your viewpoint. I dont know is your viewpoint. That sounds right. That sounds wrong. It sounds ripe and I think, there's more to the story, because now we found all sorts of anthropological evidence that indigenous peoples were here thirty to thirty five thousand, years ago, the so that goes beyond the younger dries event. And may she question: how did just people's got here so. long ago, ah a year where the earlier that, where because I'm familiar with coopers fairy, which would put things back two like seventeen thousand years ago button thirty five,
years ago, where, whereas the thirty two thousand plus down on the tipp of the tierra del fuego after look at my nose to see exactly who was the researchers do and then, but the main fact that points to me the actual multiplicity of tribal languages in the americas as a function of mathematical time. Ten thousand years was not enough to have the diversity of language. Oh yeah, that's interesting point may explain that little bit go into that I'll, just the variation there's, six or seven main tribal language families in the americas, but to have them diversify into such distinct dialects and different language families, would take a lot more than ten thousand years to do it. If you are assuming that the foundation group- if you have this assumption, that the foundation group with some
single wave of individuals who were that's not enough. The idea that if there is multiple waves of it But the questions for me is: why is it so inherent that we can only look at the baron straight land bridge they're? All may, after that people looked a lot of There is never hear the slew tree in theory sure which was dismissed on. My I think like dismiss that, while it is real, quick if I get a wrong, but it was his idea that if you look that paley olympic. We use the word patio either he's done what year, when you look at like paleo with stone technology. Thirty thousand years ago. Forty thousand years ago was remit arguably similar to stone technology of indigenous americans from fourteen thousand ago, so someone rather be in it differ proves the people came up count. same idea, independently, there's a site. They have
you ve, been influenced by western europeans, or vice versa, stew, or vice versa. Oh and we don't know that, a big, some interesting question of was there some type of knowledge that was inherent to both and then it came from somewhere else, yell Certainly, there was a lot of europeans here earlier on than columbus, but again that becomes on those questions. Why is the columbus discovery doctrine such a big part of western american thought. You have a theory and why I've got a war that like why is it John Wesley pow? first tat marketing comment, but yeah cause like the clothes never hit. He was even he never hit that never hit what became of the? U s like he landed in the west indies right. How?
It can't be that that that school children feel that columbus, too great market But what are they might? What were they marketing? How how europeans discovered america and civilised verses looking at their actual history of how many people were here in the americas and what they were doing prior to that Oh, maybe get a lot of balls in the air it now, but I want it. Let's do this. I want to talk about this. One. We got into that, we go into the question of how indigenous americans arrived and when they arrived the question mark? But let's talk for second, if you could explain how many people were here, when we were going to get to that yeah. I mean we're like otto. You know we're out of one hundred for a hell, we're not out or whatever how many we're here, lots of different estimates by two different camps from anthropology miss
really have gone over, but has been a matter of political debate, though, to me, the question is why there seems to be an influence in anthropology, especially an amateur ramoth anthropology to debate The number of people that were here and that gets too to make the crime not a severe right right. So what in ignored entirely, regardless of how many elements have gone up to over a hundred million, with the bulk of those being and mezzo america, so the heartland of the food explosion in america's weathers, parure or essential America. That's a high extreme number that is high, exert member, but that is for the most part. That number is in mesoamerica go
the numbers in north america, at them most liberal, were rem. Sixteen million sixty million people that this would have been at them. the peak pre european area, disease or pre disease is the big points of that's one of the things that most people don't understand. When understand in the history of america is looking at what actually happened here before. So we have accounts from the spanish conquistadores, these advanced societies and vast numbers of people and then when they get their butts, cakes and then came back upset the nobody was there. So one thing one of things and anthropology is able to uncover now national geographic stood a lot with this, but use of technology g of lighter, etc. To find all these ancient villages weather
in central america or in south america, but of smallpox for the most part you can throw in some plague whatever else you, author than traces of found, but There was canada now the unite states, central america, south america known, was immune to the impact of smallpox and, for the most part, those extra go between eighty five percent and ninety five percent estimation right. Ninety five percent of the population died. So when we talk about him impact on the societies and if you know which five percent is left with a the most wise, probably not are they the oldest story? Keepers, probably not, but what was left out of the five percent leaves us with cultural amnesia, all like coming out of a pandemic sort. It gives you and works
about what actual percentage of people died from the pandemic, more terrified waste One was one in the world of ninety five percent of everyone- you knew and cared about- was gone, but then That's why I think that I'm not trying to draw a parallel. Please only draw a parallel between smallpox epidemic in cuban nineteen boy I'll say it like, a year, we are invited to imagine right We learned a subtle lexicon of pandemics, a new generation learned to like thinkin talk about contagion, pandemics, point being, if you imagine. That ninety five percent of americans were carried off by covert nineteen Some amount of time elapsed. And then someone showed up in
on a to sort of categorize and describe as culturally you, probably want to say, or none at all The big misunderstanding we are Just died, you see and were in verona period of time and turmoil right now and I'll, be similar to that either it. the idea of your feelings, but the fourteen. Ninety one of you read forty nine you I have. He talks in their allies. Charles man work a lot he compares in their accounts of people going down the mississippi say on post smallpox. They can't find anybody right, but they encountered like Sid. towns and cities and their like arbour left was their idea Impact up went somewhere with the best. I could come up with right.
or unfortunately, that in those vast city your training networks were not made by them. So that's early undervalue trying to understand what happened? They found all these. This evidence of these mound builders or the mississippi and societies and the first bit of evidence It was go to the local tribes and say hey what you know about these, and there will now. But when you put in to them. cohesion that ninety five percent of people dying and I've culture it amnesia of nearly everything, perhaps saved lorries cosmology, the remnants of agricultural life ways it this would it started happening in the fifteen hundreds pretty much when, when Pretty much of europeans started coming here and bringing smallpox. So what you Alluding to is that, so that's when the ninety five percent defamation would have started, but then I can yes
you're saying that even at that time there were rim of ancient civilizations, yes, that the natives that were alive knew nothing about. So there was some other potentially some other catastrophic event that happened. European arrival is that what were they were saying could be, or just be, a major change in an urban experiment. So you see the rise of the mississippi and culture some around nine hundred eighty, and then around one thousand, ten, fifty tentative or with the big euros big superman when the sky. If we were that hung there ten times brighter than Then venus for two or three
answer then hung up for another couple of years. Stars in the sky seemed to be a very important thing to human beings, influences religion, etc, and so you you have at some of these places first and foremost, was cahokia. Of course, we don't know what the name was. but there was a local names they that they found from it, but beyond the rise of an urban population and a massive trading network which goes back to the question of where did they get that model from without an impact of phoenicians european societies coming did it come from. Awesome went over their very, very fascinating. but regardless places like a hokey and the rise of the mississippian cultures, and dispels the myth that america was an untapped wilderness. That's what I love about Charles mann's work, especially in fourteen ninety three he's talking about the impact
Of the colombian exchange, flora and fauna go and over one direction and flora and fauna coming back. How did the potato get to ireland? Had it baby corn get to china? Why was their corn than in the ark arc of the covenant user in in mysteries ha. What happened to a lot of a copper in the great lakes of his mind out, because it probably wasn't mind by indigenous peoples, because there is no record of that benin and vast cases So the mysteries of america go well beyond what our understanding is today, but hopefully between anthropology in history and conversations like this. Eventually we're going to figure, he explained to hold you look at a map. But like just a little more detail, massive trading network, it was an empire.
for sure there were boundaries that there were markers is all sorts of stuff. We haven't anthropological record, you have the mississippi and cold, here's, the urban and centre. That was a hope here and it's at their com of the Missouri mississippi and the ohio rivers which effectively give you nor southeast, east and west water passage to bring things. There is a massive trading network for sure, because the rivers, didn't, I didn't realize the yap and has just occurred from modern day, saint louis in illinois, and it another sir. It was a trading empire and With it came boundaries these coasts, rain shells, arguably in precious stones from the southwest obsidian, many many many things been being traded but back to them
what was happening there? Was these grand stories being told ultimately the primary story or arguably the oldest the story in north america was about the first humans, so we have first father and first Their oftentimes she's known as mother, corn or earth mother, and they had a number of progeny depending on the tribes. And ultimately, there were ten samson and two daughters, and that was in the time of giants and the giants were competing with us as well, We have evidence of this through the anthropological record and sisters of my mother tribe, the omaha at a place called picture cave about a hundred miles outside of the urban centre of of Jehovah twenties places. The events
and so desecrated that they won't tell you exactly where it is, but there's all these pictographs of all these stories battles between the giants. First, father, within that tree of life the first human recourse were from above so there are part of the upper realm and first father. He also carry the name of some white plume, but ultimately here came interested and understanding the powers of the lower realm, but probably that notion of Yet in young that there's a sacred balance in harmony and he said. spirit, wolf down to the lower realm to explore, but that was taboo. so one of the water spirits, aided first father, became upset That made his own journey from the upper room down to the lower watery realm
in some of our stories, p gambled in some of the stores they dulled, but the water spirit. It was a beaver spirit, won the battle, took his life and kept his head and his body send it back up soulless without it and thus enters the stories of one of the signs called red horn. His two sons, the twins- I refer to it as the red horn trilogy, but he was the one that you find all of these wonderful flint clay. Card figurines out of spiral in the outskirts of car, but tell the story of of him he had a clan name. It was probably along the lines of he who is hit with dear lungs, probably had to do with a clan taboo puppy of a deer clan type of name, but think things that you can't touch things that you have the rights to do and things you can't do, and that was probably
Refer that and eventually he became a very, very powerful character in this mississippi. Cosmology and history and ultimately, the giants became agitated with a human in these battles occurred back and forth and com, test in one there was a race and the giants being bigger, we're gonna win, except for the youngest one. He who is it with their lungs turn himself. into an arrow and one race than they had a great stick ball match whether you look at the ball course of messrs Erika or the variations today amongst ass, dick ball of the turkey, we called it little brother of war versions of shinny witches bobby influence, lot of field hockey? Of course, the cross. Little brother of war. Little brother, the state stick games, were preparation for future war. S brutal I play when I was young, brutal
so that still hinder their embezzle amerika. There played to the death warrant there and they did in this case too and asked what happened was he? his hair was dear. Lungs became the most valuable player and they beat the giant envy and BP and all of olives. The giants team were old, except for one woman and she was a red haired giant S and she was said to have been very beautiful. The tribes at different names for her of what she wore cetera, and she said you may kill me or I will take one of you as my husband and so ultimately, that's that union between her and the figure that was to become red horn we had the thunder twins ultimately and a scene of a domestic bliss and he was hit with dear lungs, was then married to the giantess and, depending on the tribe, the stories changed a little
but ultimately she was teasing him as she was cleaning the deer and was going to take. The lungs was going to throw them at him and he says no, don't do that and all the brother said. Oh don't do that. We were just tease, and he explains to everyone know. You really shouldn t me, because I'm not really your brother, I'm from the upper room and I was sent by earth maker, so he had a series of four trickster. He rose that came here and he is the fifth and final to help bring bringer of knowledge to humanity,
and ultimately, after that he explained his true form and he spent into his hands and covered his big long braid and it became the color of red ochre. Thus, all things sacred back to the impact of the neanderthals neanderthals dennis opens all of these things about ritual in art, etc. That is our version here, ultimately have to become in red horn than he also became his star. Visage is well became the morningstar and theres many many still Isn't all the plains tribe in the sunni tribes, about what that role was but then became the ultimate battles as his sons, the thunder twins went down and fought the water spirit and defeated it and brought back the head of first father and so that his body became.
unified. Once again it became the great ascension story of north america, so all great spiritual, deston reverse become the focus of cosmology in and religion for that matter, whether its Jesus or mohammed or first father. In this case this was the story they celebrated at coca was the spiritual ascension of First, father back to the upper room, so our stories or is it our abraham anything Other said father Abraham just think is so interesting. That means something it's so big and giant which cause you're saying it's a possibly was the the the largest city ever on this continent, road, the earliest, been at the time the sims. largest city in the world right? Yet you know I never heard of a yearning steve, No, I only heard of you know what
would describe as like the mississippian culture, the mound builders, but no the one off. None of my doing it into the mounds. A little bet you're writing your chapter of the book. Not a hundred percent like sure by what were the mounds all about and why they associate with these people, not visited that serpent mound. Here, to tell you, What about that? One want it absolutely fascinating. with its links to argue astronomy, as above so below, So many of the mounds, as as work were finding, especially through our astronomy that it was very much look, the stars and trying to take those stories and to plant them here. Make a connection between the two and you had the rise of places like coca, you see the role of corn.
Venus, a swash coming too to a north america and were that those modes. agriculture were than population exploded of indigenous peoples, tied that with the Religion of the stories of first father and the essential, and then you have this this recipe for civilization and that's where food and in their marriage and game together deference civilization at the complex of those two where you find civilization here, but it became a man if trading network an empire in those stories were shared trading for the most part. at the city center. You had fifteen to twenty thousand people at the actual epicenter of all those mounds there, and then there were hundreds of them, but we ve lost many them due to the construction and progressive,
these saint louis etc. But, ultimately, you had this grand plaza and the grand mount itself now known as monks mound, but all those were built in fairly rapid succession. You see the reign of Jehovah from around ten fifty two began to wane around twelve to thirteen hundred we're, not exert how taller these mounds just give perspective, Oh, I want to say that monks, man, I have to look at my notes- me they're, they're, big there, big maybe fifty feet and elevation, I'm just guess enough higher than that, probably hundred fifty two and her stairs those another guy learnt stand so this question. For me the question is: how did they get built in a word? right. Well right, but like how did they are? You know where the question is: how to day move that much earth lotta people there,
no, this sort, the serpent Mine- they didn't know it was there and sole air travel recognize from the air. They thought it was like distant natural but ill health. From the area could realise it was as hundreds of yards long serpent with a head a tongue. Oh I see no new, the people, that that the people who live there to nose out of some of the holy cow mits huge he's, got all this all kinds of butts orientation which is, and he s a lot of that kind from my dear friend, doktor? William, remain he's, probably the leading argue, stratum expert in here. Work all around but start in the eighties with serpent ma am, that the undulations of the curve on once are our tied to movements of the
on the other side movements of the moon, but what he discovered, even more importantly after that, along with others, was that its orientation is pointing towards stellar north to the head the tale lineup perfectly, but also helps measure what is at the centre. What is the pole star What is it today? What was it five thousand years ago and regardless of the wobble or prison some of the earth it still different. Radiance could point to the same thing. but the story itself you'll find within hosted the tribes, the turkey's we have a story about that and about how the serpent eight, the sun, but it's a constellation that you see at sunrise on summer solstice that that constellation cancellation wooden move towards the rising sun, and it appears that of is eating?
but I still have the stores to their nets. There's some aspect that the serpent mound, two or somewhere release figures eating an egg are some of mt effigy. They thought was eating an egg. Then someone says probably a son, yeah yeah yeah, it's it's hard to say, but then you also have had parallels between. What does the egg mean? Metaphorically, isn't knowledge sofia? Then you get these comparable to the rest of europe as well. You know what is the sacred feminine? What is the sacred masculine, and perhaps that mound work is a combination of both at the very least, it is the rise of civilization in the americas. Well, before we knew about same type of civilization, from your and so typically redefine civilization is mass food and religion coming together. So the rise of the three sister agriculture, life ways probably came from
from mezzo america and terms of cosmology, There are very similar, but you had he lay the term cosmology cosmo as you know, I'm just where we come from. All of our stories are indigenous stories. Most barter are very well tied together, but Regional stories talk about that. Originally, our homelands worth in the seven sisters constellation of pleiades and that we came here on what most the tribes called journey of the souls and are in my mother's tribal cosmology story talks about that beginning, our souls were like stars in the sky thought, but no form. Eventually one of those souls when those stars asked the question of itself. Who am I and that question burned within that sold at star.
so that star went to its mother, the moon, that's part of cosmology that all things sacred feminine come come from the moon. And said mother, who am I Oh my child, she said I was afraid you again ask that question hurry before you forget, go, ask your father, so he goes to his father, the sun, the sacred mass father who am I m, mediately chastised Ayman, says my child, be very, very careful with that question. Who am I, for? That is the most important question we have.
as a soul, but that star that soul was like us today. Gossipy can't keep a secret, and soon there were four of them. That asked the same question and that signals the beginning of the journey of the souls to the dark rift of the milky way to hear our story say that regarded by venus the morning star to get here the planet. Next, to summon the souls landed, it was an all watery planet and they took the form of four animals in this story is basically referred to as the earth I ever mess and there's variations almost crossed all the tribes and they took the form of four animals and, depending on the tribe, but ultimately one of them dives down into the deep waters and brings back up the clay in the earth and turtle was the first one that asked that question. The soul said who am I.
not so bad that got in the other ones into this new mass. This new conundrum that asked, but the clay on his back, and then that became turtle island and that's the story of this continent and ask him into this, old and the first few months that came out of the water after that. That's the beginnings of the cosmology, the the beginning before the beginning. That's the story: that's in breeding sweet grass, yes, the average. As you tell that story I was I was thought that's where you goin, but it rabanus, bribed the pottawatomie is there and have a variation of woman fell from the sky sky, woman, death, orally so. Is it fair to saying just just so unclear than then cosmology could be like indigenous religion based absolutely the stars absolutely
so we have all those variations which is another function of time. Those story that story in its origin comes out of siberia, so. There are so they had their similar there's. A similar narrative over that that's from people there, yes han and you can measure the variations of the story based over time to try to get an understanding of the antiquity of that story, hung from an ended and indigenous perspective stories or everything. the war air, the watery planet. That's very common right then even even unlike the judeo christian tradition, its common ter there's an element of it with the with the Some of the great flood assured watery planet. there are a lot of parallels that I saw, and so the book we discuss
this earlier taylor and I did about the spreading we grasp robin. how do you say less robin wall, camera yeah, but a lot of parallels between green ethernet. stretch a very far too see parallels between that story. At some point- and you know the book of gin and then there was a tree that had that people were punished for for eating the fruit of indifferent thanks, but yeah it it was. It was the trees, the tree of knowledge and the tree of life yeah. So back to the cosmology. The tree of life is what's at the centerpiece of an understanding of of a physical attribute of that. So we have the. the great tree of life, and it is the access moody of the universe and in its branches, is the upper realm ruled by the thunder beans. The thunders
there and their messengers, the thunderbirds and then to the roots of the tree of life, is lower, watery realm, which is inhabited by water. Spirits. Chief amongst them is the underwater panther the underwater serpent cherkis we collar of tuna, but parallels stories from s america, pressure cooker, con quitter, ocotal, etc. But these are the things tat I get immersed in the snow. reason territory if activating to most people, children and adults like I've discovered if you when you look at year, history, the history of your people, puzzling to you that that? people like us like western europeans, is it pause to you that we're probably there or more drawn to those
questions as well like more drawn to this. History, the deep history of of this continent,. then we are to the deep history of our own continent where our worries us came from look everley I have no desire, you know wonder about western europe idle wonder by paleo that I mean a little bit, but unlike pay attention to the paleo ethic, dish there but I'm very interested in the deep history here I but I see that you would view it as you. You might are you my view. Does like not my history at all, but I've, but I feel like it is that it's troubling to you that I feel that way. Now it's not troubling at all, because I think that's so important and one of the reasons that I want to come and share on the podcast like this and to learn from others as to have a deeper understanding of what is the provenance of this land and fascinating. Although story
said I've just shared, and I mean the truth is greater than any fiction. The stories that happen at these places the stories that were told about the the giants and and the thunder beans and all these different aspects of indigenous cosmology it it gives a provenance to this country that Most people don't realize is there, but it belongs to us all, a greater understanding of what was happening here. There's lessons in history, things to be gleaned and to be learned perhaps even with with your hokey in some of these. there's there are four but of what happens with large urban experiments. Can you keep up that that the giant people yeah. I have heard of bigfoot enthusiasts You talk about this before this editor bigfoot enthusiasts like that story,
and they will sometimes say all you can find evidence of bigfoot inv mythologies of native americans because they talked about a race of giants, has do have been bigfoot I'll. Do it tat ought to be our voicing voicing yoke? a fringe element of you know voicing the perspective of a fringe element of bigfoot enthusiasts me too. I'm I doing that to invite you wave inviting you to offer any insights. Is it a metaphor? Is it a metaphor for something What what was the rate like mythology or in the car value. What was the rays of giants Jimmy's does it refer to a specific thing? You these stories that a lot of the tribes.
back home in nebraska, but we say ni, bethesda ass. The omaha word for the platte river means flat water who but a way to get me, but ask us: that's it it's a beautiful word and grandmother dad's got the plan or the Missouri river, which we call me shooter, which means smoke on the water and wanted and all the while, the planes tribes give it the same name in their language, but what are referred to as before that was damned up and this powerful kinetic motion, especially in. Winter back when winters used to be really cold. Then We see this frozen fog bank that would go above the water, that's what it means smoke on the water, We have lots of stories run around that Our want I wanna get gotta got got you interrupted, see, there's two questions of going to be three and second
why I want to hear him talk about big foot, but also want him to answer questions about where the giants came from yeah by want him today is why I say a whole sentence in native language, here are the elder. You'd say some bad about me, as my here are like here and though the river names well, I would be truly remiss if I didn't introduce myself properly there you go away with a longer they each algae. We wheat, the buggy asia, hunger, shoe in case a bit too long. Allow who my hobby. As our standard introduction that we would say in our tribe about the name that we carry so a real. I wonder that means that were all related, so weathers white man and indian or for whatever part, world for us, we are greedy newly married either be at this meeting. A new person so did say we're all one that say it again ay without long away, you're, not after Big foot, however,
neighbouring got big forget. So that's so that's the beginning of the greeting YAP and so that translation, I carry the name of bison men of the earthen bison clan of the people that move against the current. That's what Alma highs, the corruption of whom ah ha means people that move against them. what it had to do with our brother and sister tribes within our language, family and at a certain point we separated from each other. Probably in the diaspora, coming out of the great lakes region, those movements probably referred to are so nation, along the mississippi or the great old man ah comment. people who move against Kirk as they, because this is a group of people who travelled up river. We went up upstream, another dispersed his first do more harm than you have no shit. That's pretty good. Klopp HA
from your neck of the woods we say gothic pa, removes the downstream people, and then you the osage wash our shamans children of the middle waters, really To all those, I think our talk now about this. for that, and so many american place, names are indigenous Yet we have no idea in trans liberated into english and say osage qua Paul. I, like a word you used. Corruption is for its power well, my kids are always like. Why is there a place named that, and I he's like now- probably some guy's name I mean to go through I mean if I have just the states cities every aids. The series Dakota missouri. I away cancer. Oklahoma cancer is interpretation of what we see weak, say kanzi, which means
and people who they were a clan of a larger group of arm of our language, family But it goes on and on and on our assume michigan wisconsin. Macedonia is addressing, though, that there was some sort of. You know why, to her interest in not come pleadingly. His renaming in calling the next next state steve, that no than what they were, they did that up in the northeast should certainly they did but an hour. I mean some of that. Some of those names would have been more european like new york sure, but then the further they got. These territories were more while the nano art size is a name name at I've, heard it The name translates into downstream people. I don't know if you have heard that before him anyway, I'm just get where I grew up in miss Keegan county michigan, that's for sure digital
Now my understanding, it there's a huge swamp there and its what that's like the mosquito, river delta the mistaken river flowing in the delta that the mosquito river makes as it falls in the lake michigan. So understanding than in europe. labour explains it. It's big swamp, looks swamp area whatever. But just to kind of give you this and that guitar anything new, here's a joke that will be trafficked when I was a kid. It would be that all ah in indian was water scheme and his ski broke here and he said: muskie gone you need to get that no it'd like not just like like taylor's laughing, but I'm not I'm not tell them. I don't think he's got his shock. The people tell in jobs that are derogatory at it. Make
thing up undecided like a thing people, it's a stupid asking people say and where that autonoe. Now, why do people like the little things? Maybe they don't what the real history is yeah, why? Why are you here? Why do you like to act, why people like to belittle stuff? to point why you wanna like? Why would you want to diminish? So I don't that's. That's why I wrote the chapter in my book. Manuscript called founders, dilemma of amerika Why do we have to create stories like thanksgiving will win in reality, the majority of what we think about is thanksgiving his ally and definitely belittles.
in the slave trade in in new england, the mohican peak lot wars, there's so much history that we just don't know But that is much more convenient, much more easy to say. Oh well, there's the pilgrims and they were saved by the local native americans. Had a hell of a party had a hell of a party the only time thanksgiving was used was governor winthrop, I believe, was his name after he sent military party to slaughter over a hundred different tribal warriors and when they came back, that's when they had to thanksgiving. So when you just those reality versus the myths that we come up with, but this also part of the myth of enforced.
hundred ninety to colombia, sell the ocean blue eyed, although they still t sector cold shoulder, but most of us know that right as apparent whose raising kids in america. I don't know How. I don't know how helpful it is to them. Two are not really interested in bringing them up in an atmosphere of self loathing. Here I mean I gotta know that is doing them Setting them up in a good path, so I think that there are complexities that there are astounding complexities to history, I think that the way we communicate with kids is parable right and if, if you and there's the does like there's a value in love, your place
value in love of your country, there's value and love of your fellow man? I think that it's it's like is a pretty good argument to be made for giving them when their young somewhat of an optimistic vision right. I think that that's probably This is not like the mosquito stupid shit like that. Just come indicating to them. There's some thing here that you should that you probably want to take care of right, but I mean they could be equally and through with the story of total saving, this planet given how known lorry otherness turtle simpson mentions it and turtles all the way down. But you know, in our shared with you, tell him our but I've read up on its own? Get the details on this I'd, love to illness, sort they'd, be What I think you're saying is that we do we do still town with disdain
down the our history. And the very simple, like you know, just flashpoints that are easy: to communicate. Something like yeah humans want to live in. The now sometimes want to look back at the past and just see it is this like thing that can be summed up in one sentence and for whatever reason Columbus was able to market the world market at Columbus found this place. Less always still teach I mean, I think what use I hear. What you say is like it's easy to simplify things like real. a small in those things. Then. Come wrong. I mean look at You can't tell com, stories with very simple things, We can't sit em all down and billet yours yeah through made there. There's no free will write the everything's, spelled out already you're either going to be the way are not not buttoning do about it, people horrible, good luck,
of course not I way going about lies on the other and also what does it say into our collective consciousness. If we exist on myth and continue to be ok with that, they go? I think that the the thing is that now, because the world we live in. We can find the accuracy or is so here, and you talk about thanksgiving, helps and up? And I've heard this before, but like that that helps us understand, probably that we ve been market while for sure been marketed too so we can bring out more truth inside of the way that we exist from here on out. Just because we know- and I thank And find more separation between the optimism that you're, taking that stephen, like these bats,
the decisions that are harmful and have implications today, just stuff we tell our kids new and the truce shall set them free right now, But I told him listen what I'm saying is like what I'm saying is probably like: I'm not doing a good job of articulating it, I'm just trying to mix I'm expressing the idea that there are certain sort of legends and mythologies that are that told because their effective sure, no, the p, sit around way out way in about two thoroughly kids is much easier to have history tied up pretty little dog. Yes right, it's like the blitzkrieg hypothesis right. It's much easier to believe that there was one event that killed all the
the mega father right yeah. You know, I was surprised to see that wikipedia still, as is really anxiety. Blitzkrieg hypothesis, academia, moved on wikipedia is doubled down like the buried straight theory. That's There's a lot of work been done, Graham hancock native, wonderful job in america bc. No america before but he goes into this whole understanding of what you have. An american antwerp gee, ran round the clovis first peoples and how anthropology just held on that held on that academics. Careers were destroyed whenever they found something counter to that, and so you have this whole uncovered history this provenance of america. That may go back a lot lot longer than the old than what people are comfortable with when I started when I first started dabbling in anthropology
just like reading academic works. There was was right around when the clovis first idea was falling apart and there were still people that held onto it. You know, but that was kind of like that. That was a debate that was happening back then, but To get back we're supposed to get do is that is there a metaphor to be found in the giant people like that you think that that meant. I think that they were giants they were competing race from our stories that earth maker made before us and they became they lacked humility and they were too pompous and then, ultimately, depending upon stories, but there's a credible place right outside of elmham the m speedy people there,
Parties and the rigorous than changes will be based on the dialect, but Paul hook it's called and was the origin place for the speedy people, and there is a number of the council of the animals out of the five sacred sites. Only one of them is left in that's pa hook and from it it said that back in the time of giants and sacrifice, that was a very important place and ultimately, that's were earth. Maker creator decided to flood the earth to get rid of the giants and he bade. all of that human beings and the smaller animals to go underneath into the council of the animals and therefore they rode out the flood, and then they were led by ill, a buffalo woman, And they came back at an end emerge there, so I became very central place for out of the plains people they survive. The flood
the flood begone underneath the ground- and you have a lot of those types of sky- was have their stories. There's biblical reverence the giants to the an act and genesis. This a theme, but not the kind of guy. The goliath was glass, the huge dude wasn't was. He was a giant there. he ammonite they weren't, all big. He yeah. He was a little bit of above fee. Amongst his people, but Emily vigour. All giants where they mean that that is the land of canaan area. is there any do think, there's any chance that that there could be Cultural memory of arm. They would survive like how many neanderthal anomaly, it has allowed his ears cultural memory they could
survive long enough to recollect interaction with the intervals excellent question, but we find that legacy in our art and the use of red ochre can be back to the neanderthals and one of them. Hypotheses who were the dinner servant? Were they some remnant of this giant race. We don't know because that's different with my dna than everyone else here. So what what that I do know that there are some and political markers that make indigenous peoples different, one of which is our teeth, and that's why I was so important about women's van found in those caves in siberia, butter, We have different types of teeth. The main thing is: we have shovel shaped incisors, which is the only dominant genetic trade, but on the backside of front teeth, her scooped we have,
margo and mongolian spot that out of asia and abroad. dna stifling them interesting, the mongolian spot, the little blue spot on the behind him, babies and sometimes on the back or the stomach, and it's just a genetic marker- we don't know and it fades and it fails yeah hm button. We do have different deal We have different term mitochondrial. Dna is well so the stuff tat I When I originally got into the dna stuff, All my research for the book was really trying. Understand- are we different and national geographic who seems to be a central player in all? This, have done an incredible job of trying to understand some of this ancient past and from the dna perspectives they started. This project called
genomic, which was trying to isolate the fact that we have different haplogroups for our mitochondrial dna. So I have some of those markers that would be the dominant european ones, but then we have Spot o connor own dna, that's very, very different from others. What you did so when you did a dna test, what What what what the services have you done? I did the dynamic project and then more recently, think I did the ancestry one so? The genome project was you're actually involved in research project yeah I mean. Might my dna was a part of their study this? Why sign it, for I see so Can you what tell you about you, one that I had similar part of neanderthal, which is probably my irish. maybe some of the french or german I have in there as well.
But it also shows that I've got to say. I've got two point: three percent of neanderthal and one point: seven didn't seven, probably most evidence through teeth. Other strategies, that common mugs native americans and do not leave- is jealous more percentages to avoid three, you think that you have more neanderthal, none other real life either they need. Twenty three me told me a little light on re entered, but it goes. Two years later never mind these gets its now. Both within human beings to feel like one type of hominid is new superior to the others, but out here back to that core value that we have as indigenous peoples We're all related so whether its homo sapiens, homo sapiens or neanderthals all or dennis open all part of humanity.
as we now know it, but when you ok, has a bizarre enough information out there that you can get into. like mine, are saying when they do these projects is it kind of depends on how many samples are taken sure so, there's some spots on the planet that there just hasn't been enough people. They haven't done there genomes have done their genetics and so some botz or hazy. Some specific wet like western europe, a lot of participate, lobby have done it. You sargon he's really detailed pictures, but you talk to people who presented. came from. Asia is like not a satisfying when you, when you do it, there is not filled in in a detailed sense and you'll be told us, you gonna generally asian ones. What with yours are they like? Where is that now are they able to talk about regions within was now the united states. It gets think it's ever be able to get that granular be canal. Tribe is a fluid thing. You know,
but I was really surprised at, and I know that majority native american, but the formal test Autumn came out around the same percentage, forty six percent, but what I was surprised that was based off one of the tasks that there is a lot more peruvian. Deadlines are and in both test was consistent. Percentage of. the senator from the I knew of Japan, the indigenous peoples are really. I am chinese for sure peruvian, and the other one that was a big curveball was the nearly quarter percent that set up his russian her and then I was related to
Can you tracked back track back in your history and encouraging as a writer? That's where I got the neighbors shrank back in your history, where some of this stuff comes from, and I could you say, like my great grandfather was like a caucasian guy, I mean I, I finally found people who know more like your mother and father, where members of the tribe. Only after I mean something like I can go back home. Fourteen. in generations on almost both that year and there's nothing along those lines, but what it my folly did talk somebody who knew what they were talking about a lot more I did was probably had to do with this mixing of siberian em. Duration bloodlines and I went back and forth for a time before they came over to siberian. Arguably some of them may be. Back and also you don't think that was that was any
the recent like unless cumnor year already other yeah there's only worried context of o. While ok can I the correction. Real quick and I said an egg in genesis- is nephilim niffelheim, where the joyfully yeah erect but I just had to clear their form and I've been fast, with all of you know the understanding of What happened and mess america what happened in and south america, really enjoy reading about those? british explorers who find it, went down the south american and try to find the lost city of said, colonel fastened to fascinate story, but on behalf of the royal degree in he went down in the early nineties hundreds and began to explore in his hypothesis was there as the last city of zed, which was a complex society in south america,
charles man in his book. Forty nine through he talks a lot about terror, repress and some of their agricultural practices. Involving the use of bio char and how to take very out I soils and turn them into. You know productive things in their. These are ancient but much many years after thoughts, the parents and to the amazon? No one was ever one avenue met. Many people try to go and find out through the use of technology. We were finding all, his ancient citys now, and more more evidence that population numbers were a lot bigger, but that's the first When in having any these conversations about. Ancient america is how many people, how many? eisen, etc. All those become really interesting topics, but what happened to them? Why did they leave or disappear? What was the role of
Disease and genocide, how much of it was purposeful? I think all those things are important for people in an understand so that the very least we don't repeat those bad portions of of of history travel peoples have em. A prophecy, its primarily in the planes, but it's all around. It has to do with the seventh generation prophecy, and ultimately he can. The sad symbolic events in history, such as the original battle of wounded knee, which was putting down of a very powerful and the ghost dance religion and and his prophet, while voca up around a brown pine ridge there- and I believe, is in the eighteen seventies
it is such a horrific event that many viewed it as the breaking of the great sacred hoop of the suing peoples, and at that point it was said that that was the beginning of a very tough time for indigenous peoples that for six generations we would suffer greatly and lord knows we've suffered and that with the markings, then I think he wrote about this. Some two stories about white buffalo, calf woman, the gym that she would return, and so we had those markings and in actuality in the physical manner of edifice station. of white buffalo calves. So we are the first one in two thousand and one, and by two thousand and seven there were four of them, and that means that that was the time for the return of the seventh generation, had actually been right and scholarly paper with
a legal scholars who also happens to be a dakota and she's one who explain it to me at the time, but with the coming of the force, white buffalo, calf All the children born after that would be of the seventh generation so for those tribal peoples generation would be the ones that would lead them to those nations to stand tall again and be amby be proud. Those children that are non indigenous that were born after that timeframe, they're they're, also part of the seventh generation and as non indigenous, they are going to be the population that. only ready for our knowledge, and it was pointed out to me that. I was a part of the six generation that I was supposed to be a teacher and then I did know
my stories and she was right so that began that join that journey. For me, from going from general person, a corporate amerika trying to find out, who am I am, where do I come from so that when it comes time, I can tell these stories in the hopes that its scope make the world a better place, can you explain to people that the goals dancers, because there was too there has come two occurrences were somewhat do unite, mosul one like related to the was was from Indiana right to come, see right, ass, the others too, to two separate yeah. You feel like a person, a sort of profit. Yes, that to unite people. Yes, that would try to like patch up informing allegiance of debtors ably confederacy took to fight, and then the ghost dance profit.
Or teacher whatever with profit he was similar to he was trying to he was. He was trying to communicate with the right legal with a book. historical enemies to bring to bind them together. It was derivation out of sea pottawatomie. dreaming, dance society and ultimately he had these visions, where the followers. Could through dance and song could put themselves into a mental state where they could
see the other side, and it is their hopes that, despite what had happened with the loss of the basin and are our traditional life ways that the old world would come back and that's what they were, they were seeking a course. It was seen by the united states. Military is insurrection and they were summarily attacked and killed a bit wounded, knee and the prophet was killed at that point. What was the sec like? When did the second wounded knee massacre? Does the eighteen nineties right know that was sin and the nineteen seventies that had to do with the red power movement? American any movement oh, no, no, ok out almost. I know I thought that there, like two wounded, knee things in close proximity not that I am aware of the first one is pretty brutal and tribes. Didn respond back from that too many many years
later in their mood, and he became a became a focal point in the seventies. Yes of the american indian move miss that's after they became militant for sure, But what of requests the floor now? What other question always now we covered on egg? No, we didn't you a narrative, talk about big, I think, he's a big put enthusiast, I'm a big, now he is, he has to say not only last year, because big foot is not an american ike. It is a tribal icon, all the tribes, we have bigfoot the omaha's Hinske obey. It means the hairy race of people really all the tribes, but many of the tribes, especially up in the pacific. Northwest I mean it's, it is a spiritual part of their formation and they, some of the clans up there are even responsible for protecting the
anonymity and the sacredness of them that has become something out of american popular lore, but without anyone's guess. What it that's. What he said we have correct makes were walking up here said: what do you think about bigfoot. In the end, he told me he said, big foot is not doesn't belong to america I mean you're america, as in like white european culture that dominates america. He said it belongs to the tribes and then a I don't want to take your. I don't want to tell what you're gonna say about that he's a being, but I just did many of our story has say the hers relation it between them and the sky people, and so perhaps they can move between different plains of existence, women, who are we to
What is real and what's not what's happening in the spirit world and what's happening here? Many say that they move in between those those those realms that's been adopted. That attribute has been also adopted by. Big foots researchers to explain why you cannot catch them on a trail camera because they they re like move out, they move into the ethereal realm and can't be photographed, do believe. Steve no Mitch edward. The committee Mitch edward thinks there just blurry. and it's not the photographers fall, you think it's a bare legs. They went up. I don't I don't know it to me when he told me gave me
This gave me another perspective, sure that that explains this, and I knew that that big foot would have been connected to Indigenous americans, but I guess I didn't know, realised that it was something sacred and that it something that's really valued. You know that's kind of been dinner. jacked in a way I mean because I asked I told him I said no. I don't believe in what this is before. I heard a story, I said. No, I don't believe in bigfoot. I think people are seeing bipedal bears that have had wounded front feet and are walking on their back legs the fact that that happens for sure happens, but not just expanded. This idea, because I mean the the big foot or the the hairy harmony. Like by penal law, goes so D, I mean it's bizarre, how deep it goes on, and I we were talking about the co yukon, the co. You can have a very distinct bigfoot like character that
up in alaska. Every tribe does yeah we're all complex and deepen rich. It was a south east alaska. Some of the groups have a there's, an otter man which pied and simply- and people have mentioned to me, because you can have the woodsmen. They call him woodsman kind of a wilding yeah and it is not exactly a big foot but that's kind of how they treated it, that they said they were supernatural they could move in and out of, you know being able to seen what now, but there were almost like a feral human that was real harry and then, of course you have the counterpart to the giants. We'll have stories of little people as well and there
A very powerful race and they move in and out of this existence, the story that I always like to tell about it. I am a I'm a descendant of baptiste Dorian as the french part of my omaha bloodlines, and he was an interpreter for lewis and clark and whenever lewis and Clark met with the eye way in the auto, with what is now council, bluffs iowa, which is where I live. The unhappy at present, because they were on bison hot, but eventually some of the translators Explores went along and my ancestor was a part of it and they got up near vermilion, south dakota, and the lewis and Clark wanted to dispatch all of them. All of the travel representatives to go in to explore the sun they. Basically Iraq, mounted spirit,
like an yamaha, was dug in their heels and said: ah, we ain't goin and they asked him why and they said, because we have a story, there were a number of our warriors. There were three hundred of them never on. I am horse rating trip, which was not honourable and on their return going past them rock edifice, their spirit, lake, that the little people came out and attacked. and killed over half of them, and so our stories about giants and little people all the tribes have stories like tat. I only know the ones that I've been told, but they give so far back into our history that there has to be something to better meet. There's, there's sisters, parallels with the gaelic cultures,
little people etc. The mound builders you find very soon similarities between the cards and rock mounds of northern europe, in which you see in the mississippi and plain as well. So for me, it's just a lot of questions back to that alternative were all related, but had it all, these things rise round at the same time and then and then collapse. You know, I think, when I, when I hear you talk this kind of a broad general statement about hearing you talk is that. We so bad want to be able to explain everything that we know in in science, so It is by very essence, only able to discern tonight, stand. What is physically observable me? That's the definition of science, like science does not delve into things that are metaphysical and in
What I like about here in some of these ike ancient deep time stories of indigenous people. Is there We really like to think that we know everything and we just don't. I mean I did a interview with one of the top, while. if biologists in that country that deals with with, at oak, trees and acorns, and he. start, drilling down questions about what in oak trees like he was like You don't have to dig very far too. You realize science does not No all the answers you about something so simple, and not that seemingly important and just as I hear you talk about even call, about how long humans have been in north America- and you know r r the archaeology, we know, you know, says x, you know, We ve been here this long, but an index just the best that we ve got.
but your story say that it goes way back further than that and in a just feel, we really dont know, and it's ok for us to say we don't know- and it's ok for us to say that The measurements of science do have limitations his back to the field around apology and its separation from folklore, because that was the scientific part of anthropology, which says we have to have physical evidence Everything in it ignored folklore am is only until the last ten years or so that was one of the works. That really inspired me to start. My book was reading TIM park work on and go home here, and he was a fine mainstream anthropologist to bust out of them old and say hey. We need we need to look at
tribal stories here to help figure out and that's that's how we come up with the stores. Incisors size, ostracizing people that have spoken against it and look back a thousand years and find that right, so their stores or everything still. Let me ask you Then we have had this debate on and off over the years. In those ideas perspective on it. May the earth mounds been ransacked like you. Have a termite Hunters, rights or people that would just go dig up kay. Dig up starts with the red yeah. Was I'm gone so people dig, caves is, would dig up effigy mounds people do cities call off the stuff tat, they thought was a value and in destroy it from an archaeological perspective and in desecrated, from all religious respective, say, ah less. What that at an extra
at the other end. Is here til on the field and up pops, a broken arrowhead. Sure, ok and you put that arrowhead in your pocket, because you think in the till this field, all the time I just kicked it up my field yeah, so two questions for you do What's your take on that on that impulse, while the and and I want you to judge that impulse well, there's two different kinds of people in the world: Those people who want to lump everybody into two groups,
yeah eric pickles their head leavers right right. The leaking of the the analogy that I thought was interesting at this at this point was: if we all walked up and found a wallet and there was money in it, half of us are going to take it and give it to someone to give it back right and the other half's gonna take. Take the money pocketed in to the. it was probably right. So I think the same thing percentages right, but it It goes to how we think about objects that we understand arise when we would be one of those on the the one in of the extreme is you know, people lived to collect aurettes, my dad did I've got his collection and at home your father there, my dad did and he loved it, and he let you actively hunted arrowheads. He did
gave me and I understand that at this in time. I know that. What is in that act? Why is that so important? Philosophically, when your average american is walking, some And sees this arrowhead, what is it that compels them to want to pick it up and to take it for their own? some may admire the beauty and the history as it is and was and says. That's pretty powerful and maybe if we leave it in the ground. Maybe this was an important place. Maybe that arrowhead told a story of how these people lived. Maybe the explains the time period of when that was made maybe it's tied to an animal that was ancient, that this airhead went into there's so much that could be there and then there's. The other perspective is my land. I found it. It's mine, and perhaps all the solo happen to it. I been there a long time by itself,
yes good point, but you can't discount the rarity of it and that's what I mean compels a lot of people to not leave it because it's I dunno it'd be, I mean: did they want it's magic for themselves? Yeah, exactly, I was with some hours with some anthropologists who were doing work in them. And pr a supranational patrolling reserve, alaska. What they were doing is ahead of oil exploration, which is probably inevitable. They were trying to make a map of cultural sites, because when they do
You know he has a process and all the other processes to go on to extract oil. There needs to be an accounting of what might be destroyed, sure and it would, in the finding of cultural sites, would impact where you would build roads put in wellheads, whatnot and you're in a place that you can't even it's so far out. You can't get a helicopter there on a tank of gas. You gotta like take wayne kick out barrels, gas and then hopscotch from barreled a barrel and a helicopter? That's how remote you are, but I was there's stuff laying out man, this bensinger thousands years. Like does no one around to pick it up hasn't been, and I'm telling those guys would photographed the projectile points and they would draw the projectile points and they would stick em back in the moss. It was painful for me painful out, have visions of common back out and get them. I wanted him so bad
why not make out? This is because it so cool idyllic every party. I would go. revisit without we want. I can't leave, you can't walk in doubt not to take it, but leave it can't walk down getting back out of the moss look, Add it for a long time, sticking it back in the moss and just like yeah they'd, be like if you I dunno man like if you put a box and nerds out on the ground and my kids founded. They What I'll tell do those nerds There is very little I can explain it. although there are a lot of things in the natural world that do connect is to be no way back. History, there's very few things that physical but you can just look at and hold and it takes you like what way it's not an exit their homes. Where this is such a new go ahead, I actually ours is wanting it it's.
Two things I don't understand. I can tell you what it's not it's not meant as an act of disrespect for the person the own. That thing for some, and I want to quite the opposite advocates of it's up. It's a thing of like are deep reverend curiosity about fascination with the person who made that thing sure, but if one takes them, You lose the context of where it was whatever sides might be able to tell us about it. Wanted Yang, Good point want to bring up too serious. Things on this topic, so that's on one end of the of the extreme and then you have in the wake of the passing of the lead. Station to protect tribal remains, an funeral objects known as the native american and grapes. Repatriation act go in the night
I need them prior to that. You have the archaeological resource protection act. and you have, aberrations of this benign mindset about things like arrowheads and on this other stream. You have this event that happened with thea he'll park service at effigy mountain iowa. As the rise of now and state of iowa also pass an early law saying that if If there are skeletal, remain or a funeral objects and ultimately, what became the language of they'd american graves and repatriation act is, anything that is sacred needs to be returned back to the people and what happened there was they had a number of skeletal remains and the superintendent of the site believe his name was Tom Munson
He was so frustrated with the potential that these objects would be out of their collection, and I believe it was her combination of twenty four different human remains from different individuals. The wrong display ever on displayed different points, and as this, the potential risk of this law, taken them away from the nth logical archaeological collection. He stole them and took him to his house and then lied about four years whom and ultimately there had to be an accounting of it. But we're talking about skeletal remained where he was going on in his head. I have to take so we don't have to give them back to the indians and eventually everyone's gonna forget, and then we can have them back. So you have On a healthy relationship between objects that have a tribal provenance.
and what we would like to see happen to them. Any skeletal remains there's an exception in the americas because of archaeology and ology science came menaces, it's ok, Take indian bones lisbon, numerous examples of cemeteries and there were damaged during construction cetera. They find the white. Bones and they bury them properly and the Bones go to state archaeological societies. Ultimately, it tuck enforcement of nag poorer to come in and to convict him first keeping stealing all those all those remains the tribes were very upset about. That and there is no accountability of it even further and more political goes too illogical. Rich sites like.
Down in outside a blinding utah endeavours? Arrayed was a raid that there was twenty four in those that were ultimately indicted, and indeed Between them they had forty thousand objects, he had a legally taken out of the ground, some of which have proven asked, six thousand b c pottery, shards human remains. Funeral sandals etc, and for most of those was a doctor by the name of james read and certainly viewed as in overzealous overreach of the fbi, bureau of land management, but the facts of the case. Sir, still the same, there is over forty thousand objects that gotten that staying The economics of it is what is mind boggling to make,
this is a serious part about arrowheads heads etc was of the two hundred forty objects that they found there, they used an informant to try to lure these individuals who are illegally trading them and fuelling the black market and native american objects and think they expend around three thirty thousand, which average around thirteen hundred forty dollars per object for those two hundred fifty If we use that as a proxy and run the numbers than that collection which hauled away from those twenty four individuals. Collection of forty thousand would be fifty three million dollars. So this is one subset of what happens with the black market trade around eight american objects. Which have been finished, ized beyond the object in the provenance into a horrible black market. So why would
individual who finds the arrowhead or the pottery shard I get on a box for this and then it goes on and on and on doktor red and the info. but sadly committed suicide, rather than face the charges of the anecdote ormond killed himself? He did a year in year later and if you look up stories on this you're gonna find more stories about the over reach of the federal government, but it certainly doesn't take away from the act that this was an illustration of the huge black market around made american object shelly things that are sacred human remains funeral objects, things that should be sacred and left alone. There is a serious side too. Hunting objects, I get the serious side for sure, and I think that you, if you went and talk to people just like poor people who are hobbyists
You know about, they don't think they're doing anything wrong or you either you'd find. If you said like hey, if you found the human skeleton, what you do, I think you know the vast majority of people would would recognize that they they wouldn't take it or no tell someone or wherever you know, but I think people sort of spread it out and a view the arrowhead. Isn't it difficult or was it wasn't purposefully placed it was perhaps law. I guess what I want. I was disk, it was discarded and it wasn't like someone pudding something somewhere the same way. We might look at our own like we might lie at a cemetery like I'm At the same cemetery that my ancestors were buried in and have a very different feeling about it than I would if I found a like an old rusty pistol laying out in the woods I'd be like yeah like a
dig up the graveyard by this dishonest rusty pistol in the woods and they take on me, You know I like we aren't we sort of hold these two. We distinguish these things or we'd, be supper, these things out in our head. I can't say where the line falls for everybody, but a lot of people view there being some line somewhere. bone of a human leave, it alone there somebody what I think I think I really want some clarity from you your personal opinion likes Obviously there are some legal remedy. I mean there there's legal boundaries that guide us. They obviously can't mess with you about. You can't take any kind. Artifacts of public land. So let's go to private land. We fought. If I'm on my land and sea and air head show, should I picked it up. You can pick it up if you found a wallet with five hundred bucks. Would you pick it up her? Give it back
I would pick it up and give it back, but, but I dont know I I'm I'm just being totally honest with the armed struggling and defined, though the the complete apples to apples connection there. In because I mean what am I, if I find an air had on. My land must was to call the you know the the oath age the choctaws that would have been there would be interesting for you to do that. for you as a landowner, and then they on the serious parts that I'm hoping comes out of your voice. Talks with people like me is is that so much more to the provenance of this land that word. Can you tell me what that word means that the provenance yeah in that there is a history? like the wind in art, worker and wine or whatever it is. It's the ownership history, ownership history got it you know like some painting comes up. You know
over people are very interested in its flow through time. So I'm so proud of you now that one according to marian Webster number one I hadn't marian Webster. While we ve been talking because these use it so many times and then the first definition is just straight origin or stores But then number two is the history of ownership, of a valued object or work of art or literature. The reason it's real important in paintings and antiquities is the the more solid, the provenances, the less worried. You are some that it that it came that it emerged out of somewhere as a phony yeah like all. He knows like now. Just came out appeared out of nowhere. Nineteen, twenty normal nil, open guy. I've got some guy may well, ok ask you this like so I'm from western arkansas close to where you're from originally in there's a lot of air heads of little points spear point, lot of stone points ever where I may, I am convinced that
They are destroyed You did across the landscape everywhere everywhere, in so vague about this this is just a thought pattern now would have like we have destroyed so much of the earth's surface through civilization, covered with concrete, moved it crops crops like we ve waves. in I'm, ok driving on a road that has straw native american arrowheads, but nah meal pasture, where my meals tear up the ground and they have trails of dirt. That have exposed the ground. I find some stone points And that's why I would ask you, in a distant totally hard, The question is When I, when I picked a stone point: they can came off my place, which I have I have seen many. I call my keys
heads and usually a call em out before a pick it up if their home say. Look at that. I say the last human to touch that was planning to cook his dinner over a five with an animal that he killed. With that point, I made away it's a moment. Man I mean it's not decide all look at this. It does that count, for word. Some value lie What should I do this? Well, I mean problem. Would you do with them? That's good question Example that I would point to was Steve's example of finding a bison skull. You go on a journey. You find out to the true provenance of that animal and histories, and I reported- and you reported it dear, but its mouth. they're after learning, all that I've learned, I would want to leave it there and at a certain point, would want to.
Introduce science into it to see what we can understand about. What that peace was like what period was from what were they hunting? Who was due in the hunting? Just a lot of questions? hopefully layer and into the three, as we know it from the object, is looking at it on the ground coupled with science and then layer of indigenous history or provenance onto it, only add to the value of the history of the object and that's my whole point with all this. Is that wherever you look across Amerika there's all these objects. It was all this history is there for all of us to understand and to help enhance our experience as americans. Speaking to history, now we of yemen schema any besides history. can you explain to everybody about the sacred seeds project, absolutely
When I began to write a book became pretty apparent, I'm doing a lot of research that the rise of the mississippi and found builder culture had a lot to do with the food that they were eating and. Around this the same timeframe. Actually a bit earlier. my mentors in life. Dr David walker, is the chair. Emeritus of anthropology at cu boulder. He began to watch some of the trends that was happening with some of the big seed companies like Monsanto Syngenta and what they were doing, countries like the country of india and ultimately trade marking seeds. Yes intellectual property protection, but was also displacing them of their indigenous seeds in getting them their own contract, gown genetically modified organism, seeds and which is basically what the american farmer does.
the seeds, their corn, that we see in fields as clones and it sir one small, very of corn compared to the thousands of types of corn that we're here before, and so I began to study the mississippi and record and basically worthy his corn, in abundance, there were people in abundance and where there is corn, there were people and there is life and so from a cosmic, watchful perspective. That is the gift of old woman. The seeds and she gave us corn and all the tribes have different stories, but it's so interval to our life ways cosmology and survival that you can't get around it and so I began my own journey of trying to find some of these ancient seeds and what it meant we were talking about this before the podcast cash about.
what happens when ninety five percent of your ancestors were gone at some point did all happened at once. No, it was very devastated. The examples in nebraska was because of our proximity to the middle of the country. The tree there we were hit until the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds way late seventeen hundred eight eighteen, thirty, eighteen, sixty and perhaps more ways, but the cumulative effect was ninety five percent decimation rights, searches, may have happened to fifteen hundred in one place and eighteen in the other, but the net effect was not loss of knowledge for sure, and so whatever we can do to find our way back to that, what I found was starting with basically thirty seeds. the turkish nation, seed, saving project and in those in the ground. There was something about under.
adding that history understanding how we planted when we planted? Why? What shape? What seeds? How did you plant them and began to piece together this companion, planting agricultural life ways that was at them since centre of how people survived on this continent for at least two thousand years ago, and probably much beyond that and by putting my hands in the soil understanding the rhythms talking with elders, he seemed gather these things back. I began to find all these little tidbits. we're supposed to plant on the new moon and may there's a flower that grows the first one that that flowers, that's when you plant in other parts of the crop when we left them, they were drought, resistant seeds and all of these things began to impact
how I felt- and I truly felt by doing these acts by having a good heart. By doing them. the right reasons, not for money back to the whole notion of robins work of sacred economies and sacred reciprocity, began to change me away, I'm very familiar with enter general. we'll trauma the impact of what colonization has had on indigenous peoples and it's it's rough. It's really hard. but on the converse side, perhaps it has to do with epoch, genetics but by getting my hands and the soil by growing these plants by learning from them. That is healing me and that it can heal other and we have a notion of blood memory. That somehow the ancestors who are dna will help us understand how to put this all back together. How can we live better again.
I look at the landscape and I see things differently. After doing all this work, after studying to be a teacher of the sixth generation, I look across his life scape. When I see the lance the land that once was I see the land that could be again. I see bison herds massive wherever one could hunt them again. The food they eat is back again switch grass, the bison grass buffalo common It's the reintroduction of all these things that we're beginning to see again things that were important to tribal peoples that are part of our clan systems. The role of wolf and Elk and bison these. This is what the land here was meant to produce to sustain people.
But I look and see every tilbury acre planted. I see invasive species of cows everywhere Those resources are scarce, who wins? Who has priority private landholder and the cow, the Elk, the natural order of things. These are the things that I partner, but ultimately that's what sacred seat is about is exe exploring those journeys going backwards and time, but also in the age of model, crop cultures, potential failures of those hopefully some day, people are gonna, be glad People like me find all these diverse seeds, all these different types of corn that we have this. The policy of seed, so that some day we are glad that we have it and not to mention just the writ richness in the beauty that comes from all these different type of.
do you have somewhere of facility or How are you Storing these things and sort of codifying year. Whatever knowledge is there a brought some man. This, is the core in his squash here on earth, this is some ancient variety. Actually, in my life, studies to find all the stuff. Ultimately we found these older collections and one the things that I was so curious to find was in omaha rainbow flat, which I couldn't find anywhere and ultimately in the collections coral barnes, Lucy cherokee individual, who Of the course of his eighty five years here, he collected over fifteen hundred different types of seeds cross all day, erica's in solemn, regional, viable you're. Looking at right here
So yeah he has a semicircle jet black. Now, when I say purple is red red YAP and those. Seeds horned. It's a bow seismic. What we re sort of consider to be a real big care I think I made a lot of bigger than that. I was one of the smaller, that's the only one that wasn't shelled, but that is a ruby flat. Sword, rest blood, blood, red what does it taste like a puppet: between commercial white rice. and wild rice that you'd find up around the great lakes has a much deeper richie earthy taste that another, not as we his eyes. wheat is one variety and there is flower, there's flint, there's popping corn and their sweet corn and I've never had much luck with grown the sweet varieties, because it's sugar and all things in nature like sugar, so bugs raccoons. They love it
dear so youth, the? U but these those who would then you don't they. they would have been hybrid ized with modern varieties in as much as we can tell I mean they were all turn into hybrids to grow well locally, which is basically what I'm attempting to do too. So The the version that I originally had was her a rainbow flap and some of these seeds her more sacred to others, so we were talking earlier about clan taboos, etc. So, amongst my mother's drive, the omaha my clannish responsible for keeping the sacred red corn and- and now I am glad to say that we have our own varieties of our sacred red back one of the clan taboos is that
who is better to keep the red corn than those that can't even touch it, which is why it was in the bag and why I didn't touch it, because my clan is not allowed to touch that and it's one of the clan taboos. What do you do with it? I I'm the protector of it. I wouldn't eat that or can't touch it. I can't eat it. so you're clan would have grown it and they would. They have done with it, charged with the rest of the tribe and every closer. I landed inside of your tribe there that ok, it's a bigger tribe but you're. Pretty get a clan? Had this job? I'm? So that's I like that, idea better to keep it than the one that can't touch right. Wow, yeah lots of people have trouble with that. No good man give to him. You can't eat it right. Do they really come look, it will be. I've used corn for what they have grounded up I probably could you boil that and eat it, like corn, on the complex what you heard. That's not the best way to make it healthy.
Darkly is one of the things that we found from the anthropological record was set in its roof. Or on ground. Flints have a thicker I'd like to see that's sure. Pass it around and there's also beans there that are from the cherokee side of the trail of tears beans, which literally sustained us and those are indigenous squash seeds there so three grown together is very important corps. takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil beans. Put it back. Squash keeps a lot of things. Out of their dear raccoon, raccoons loves corn, and so, when you play altogether? You have a whole different perspective of growing that is more sustainable, so to speak, because when you look at the differences between euro american ag methodologies, one is put them in rows and then switch out the fields whereas ours,
I rarely moved, except for like a ten year time period, so I'm a little more sustainable from that perspective, but it's just been my journey with the seeds to to educate, going back to Robyn's work on braiding sweetgrass. She had a dream and after visiting, I believe it was a tradie marketing and south america and in her dream she went and money was no good. Only this sacred currency of other things that you could trade and my students caught caught, that for sure and when I began sacred seed, we looked at b and a seed bank
money taken on newest dossier, grants millions of dollars, and they finally said no less just leave it as it is, and that's how I got the name so rather than trying to exploit the plant nation for corn here, I just utilise it too, too sure and educate to show people the the beauty, because this is not what we think of the corn. This whole is red, purple zero or even a second. What that's why I brought this in broken gives you can see the car began stock, is red stocks. green and then turned to purple red. and use that will make it about three hours away before the seeds are ready? So as there like this seed with the organisers? Would there be away firm, I mean. Are you distributing seed in any way to to try I do people, I do more, started. It is really a matter of you. I had just a handful of different types of seeds and gets
We many different stories. How seeds came to us was one fund story. There was a guy that was a descendant of the original homesteader. I want to say this fifth great grandfather ottawa, what it was, but He was nice man and he had been digging on his land and found an old corn grist stone and he did the right thing and he contacted did his research and found out the tribe that it from the parties, and he contacted them and they told him. It sounds like one of our Why don't you come on down and we'll talk about it? So he did mine, you that's trip from western nebraska down to Oklahoma and when they got there there
apple, historic preservation, officer, pulled out one similar and says yep that looks like one of ours and in a true sacred reciprocity trading agreement. They said you know what we're going to we're going to take this, but we're going to give you these bean seeds here, and I can't I can never remember if it's spotted like a horse or painted like a horse beans but they're, absolutely gorgeous, and that's a bush bean and honest with the parties used, and I love it. I knew the stories for real when he told me all the things one they made him go down there, there's no put it in a male package and let's talk about it later, I bring it down on this talk and they got there. they gave him the seeds, they said no white man's ever have
these before, nor any other large now well, he was afraid to plant them. So when he heard one of my podcast your stories, he contacted me and says fraid to screw this up and, of course, he's I still want you put it on the maladies. No, what are you gonna get him or her to go get of area, so there's all sorts of stories with this project. I trust has been really beautiful. It's an educational content to explain to people and, ultimately you know keep finally in all these different hybrids ultimately should be helpful to us. human beings Sunday, Kurdistan. One little another baby question letter, one in that it will be wondering what can we do What about it while we're having our snacks before the podcast? And we talking about this, that problem of smallpox it that really decimate the population does decimated the oral history that was there. Yes,
So knowing that sort of like a chink in the armor of this history, culture, amnesia and perhaps or maybe that's just a part of it and that's and then, and then your people just accept that as a part of being people that do history, but now you as someone as someone as the Gaining all these stories in your learning. More and more, are you just go, one oral history, or are you now writing down and try preserve in another way to prevent? What's happened in the past? I think it's important to look ever come. Action on both sides. written a book manuscript as Steve knows it's gotta be the hardest. Have you ever tried to do in one of the cruellest gets. It opens up so many doors but term, hopefully, as can be a combination of both then I can in this research in these teachings that I help others understand things that we mess. Just the understanding that
there's a reason why we forgot so many thanks. act of colonization impact of being a culture, into the american society and there's a ton of history there and federal policies and love is really sad but regardless of, though you can still own your own history, you can find the seeds that you, your people once ate and you can find them a quick nod to the land. Back was a topic. I know that's originally how I was thought of, and on the here. But one of the richest examples that I can say not to do with public lanterns to private lands and one of the best examples point. Two was the author roger welsh, whose along time frame of the pony,
And in the process of the one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of lewis and clark- and he gave the pawnee nation some of his private land out near carney- nebraska, oh really, and asked them properly what they wanted to do with it. It was a really powerful moment. They said two things: their traditional of chief one was we want plant or corn, which they have done in it's incredible project ep alcohol? Can what she's done? There is amazing do they said they wanted to dance. But ultimately, I guess to the called arms. What can people do were interest in this topic and want to learn more the very least wherever you're family life, Might be Your provenance is important, perhaps Family has been there since homesteaders. Maybe they ve been there for seven generations in clay, newcomb westerner
cancer. But if you go and look you're gonna find a provenance so much deeper and if you have- within your heart, to find those people that used to live their welcome them back with open arms, then only medical treasures can await you and any american who wants to explore the provenance of this land and history and its only help us get along better and to have a rich history, the lands that we share, Hata p will find you specifically if their curious about year, book D worked on of the curious about sacred seeds of its other. tribal members who want to connect with you in and share notes, church, chair, seeds, absolutely secrecy, dot org is the website for for the project, That's really what I wanted to support. Doing podcast like this, but You found me on instagram taylor, keen, seven ballade images of the corn and pay
the planned measures right now. so taylor. Keen is a full time and struck creighton Messina right and create new university college of business, also the fonder sacred seeds. So If you want to find out more, I'm sure you cannot dig. And that route can you repeated. mr m handle. It is that the tailor king said tiktok seven t why a lower k double in the number seven. I may say so much will join us. You have got a clue. Get one. Last thing I had given that I wanted to share big oil head This is a major type of war club and it was adorned. By a member of my tribe? Those are objects. that are used during our
dance for younger men than myself, but I wanted to share that was used, steve, oh beautiful, thanks for inviting me on the show We need to have our studio. You do really allow. Was this work club may of would best. It is always made. I would like a barrel typically but its origin. go back to a symbol of power in ancient native america, though the symbol of the mace. What kind of feathers are these all kinds of different things? In there? There is some pheasant there's some I'm southern birds that are in there some pretty colorful ones, altos or cockatoos, or I can straighten those out a little bit. I had to sneak it into my mag there, but to have the vehicle now, that's cool, very cool Thank you cause we're a r as our wall works round, we're going to that's going to ruin, find a good spot for that. So would this be omaha?
Our turkey that we would have been destroyed probably goes back to the mississippi and period cosette symbol of may surpass when we talk about it about your well. What would we say? How would we describe this when a podcast gets gaskell's? What's that a war mace a war may suffer from the the planes traditions It's omaha osage. All of us would have used those when one in conked on the head with that
taylor keen thanks very much for join this man, really appreciate thanks for having thank you. Thank you.
Transcript generated on 2022-09-22.