The tonight show was severely wounded and, in my case, unaware of the meat eater podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel from merino base layers to technical outerwear for every hunt burst like go farther stay longer. Alright, everybody. We got a ton to cover today, papa is in town. Yonder is daddy, honest in town. I do not know what would you do and in tat way you in town came to visit my grandkids allies the daughter in law can check out

if I'm getting ready to move here, hopefully, within the year, oh really, yeah trying to sell my house, I told Katie that the house will be up for sale. So you guys, if you want to move back to michigan, to swap places she liked the house- and she told me about a lot of times that she was there that I wasn't there do you want the old like party? No, that will be in the same house now that my wife use the party that has a high school. I think so more than what we are actually two houses why you back and early on, in my view, is more to his other house. The old higher his brows prior to that, if she was talking about being out on the and with you in the past about waste a fish, as all my girl. No ten acre lady gaga large mouth aspiration, you knew Steve wife in ice. That's why I'm here today. I have no idea, oh

You want something you're hanging around the artisan is lovely children. Are you all. The time come like like bite in your tongue, because you don't like the job. He's doing. You know you do it different or do you kind of like how his whole family's always going to go into the spiel, to congratulate you guys on ten years at a big deal in business? Oh The amounts are about his job as a kind of integrated. So when you're over there, you dig in what you see in in terms of how he's run in the whole programme with the family in everything. Oh, the family, I thought you'd about mediator. Now We are absolutely absolutely oh yeah. I anchor. I didn't, get some tips from him on all like you know, don't leave the male thing out of it got you say You feel that he is doing better than you did a hundred percent really oh, wait

well yeah, because janis is red right now he's literally turning he's gotten better, he got embarrassed twice already, but the reality is when you're going through a divorce. It's really tough on the kid and it's it's equally as tough on the parents, because you, yeah you're trying to figure out. I look at what am I going to fit and how many and make this work, and so we you have our own sort of approach and guess where we get that approach from our parents right, so some of the things that I picked up from my parents were specifically when my father we're not the way to raise kit. That's all you got his journey of learning. Hey man! Don't do that as stupid as bad, for you is bad for the kid and eventually you get to a point where you go hey. I think I got part of this figured out I would say all of my children are light years ahead of where I was as an adult trying to raise kids. So the world's knock shit? Oh, no! Not at all and the other thing

is it he is the best news. I've heard all week I mean. There's you know it's not just about raising the kid with the child is exposed to write, know that environment and that the child knows that you care about them. You know like giving them limitations. You can do this. I want you to be adventurous. I want you to explore, but here's the limit you can't beyond that, that's really important! You can't let your brother on fire now. Would you can try so What I see them doing, not just the jennifer there they make a really good team I would assume that, if Do your house that I would prefer to see the same thing just your own version of it. You know you're adaptation of how that works. That's good! You MA am you should be lapping this up. Jani, you look like you're, not you're. Not this is grace heard all this, not many guys ever get praised by their father in front of them. You don't think so. Most people, your dad's job, is to take you down

take down at what he does now if it exists all men, their joint. Also by new vehicle. They wilms remit. Because you guys used to be what our eldest means advisers to former governor mammy of wyoming, There is right, and euro army was very well white, for they must have done a good job. In devising the best politician history of america. He threw the town here through the tunnel and does one run for president. He crushed it for eight years and they deservedly every good politicians should do, which is he said, I've I've serve My job he didn't write, and now he lifting waits, gold's gm right now, probably boy. What bobby species he's much thinner, he's tanner he's buff again he's playing a golf none of those banquet meals, every jackie should I think you should do god. If there is currently a lot of strikes, you get now know because chain.

from while men you could be from wyoming in play on the plan, the mainstay actually wyoming, this is like we're gonna go to unravel, but then you get actually a lot of outsized political clout when you're for I am thinking occurs course. There's some interesting stuff tat. We ve done. First of all, we keep the population very low, so we have to senators and five hundred thousand people so your ratio of senators to people my army is better than it is in any other state o. Now let us do the math one time in figured out voting rates so like, while these population, how many are what percentage of the population is voting age? What percent actually votes based like six. Do its consent to the governors, mansion hats, heightened populace is right here and if you don't get elected, you still get to be a policy adviser, that's how it works as great. So it's nice. But now you don't do that anymore. So now ne fi you've been on the show two or three times two times dave and I both been on here together twice but the first time Dave just listen,

do a football game on his eye, fell on the entire time, but were well in my defence. Now have a defence. I think I is actually kind of following a broncos game at the time. You're on your vague sportsmen, I'm a big sports sense, but also like governed It was your guest and we were on their as well and he was so good at everything. I just I bet I'm not going to need to say anything was gonna, guess cause this guy like he knows his stuff. He knows everything, and so I can just follow football game yeah. It was pretty fun. We pick you up at port endeavour denver having doing record at like some kind of sports daily. Now we went out for it has different. I will answer. We went pierre chains for lunch. Can we more than ever us with in some guys from mag pole and other mariposa came came down. We all had lunch together. We drove down to the governors mansion enrolled in there and sat down the giant circle on

was tat his dinner flight or something because I know I was narrow. I dont you were really afterwards. You would want annual planning, that's what was your own animal putting up and why arming you flew in for the animal pont, Janusz drove a pick up and with all the stuff in it and then you guys met at the governors mansion. Then he picked you up and you guys drove up to casper where Pretty sure you stated that the other member state, A little disturbed to your trash, like that, I'm impressed that's good mean I remember cause that'd, be more careful. Sarah and I didn't I mean I remember the stadium right because you came second time for sage grouse yet, and we in fact the second podcast you do with you were like week. We kicked on the light at those in the football stadium because we want to make a pitch what but should go as yours talked about going to the university of montana, and so we're like well, it's taken to foot students who wanted a wildcat? Her sweet turned on

well. The lights are sitting in that sweet open knows that they filled the fridge full of adult beverages and what not an josh Alan was actually under the lights out on the field throwing passes to some of his two some of his teammates. but that wasn't the same guy, for everybody knew who Josh Allen is I still don't quarterback at buffalo, but yeah. Alright. So now he's like really good well yeah, but we were sitting up there talking about stage graphic. Do you think that he had all that success because of the podcast that brought I'm sure it was problems through the stadium speakers he's like now? There are some boys to take the job serious, that's right and I'm going to take a dive, especially out of that Levi now is the anne S as of director. of government relations, state affairs and, as I said, being national shooting sports foundation, what states

cover the rocky mountains and the upper middle west. So you know it's not that I love those. And then I do all the interactions with governors, offices and So I got a republican governors and western governors and all that, and then I do also associate efficient while of agencies. So all the interaction with like the? U know of cancer, and partners at those things. You know the directors of game and fish agencies. Those are my people too, so I'll go to all those meetings, and I interact with those guys on behalf of awesome. cs as the firearms, trade association or america, so for people that dont know we represent Nine thousand manufacturers and retailers of fire- was ammunitions optics, blotter, clothing, factors in the outer space of some of our members, a lawyers This is our membership, like weatherby bench made vortex guardian, ergo vortex. Absolutely conservation groups like

rocky mountain Elk foundation, mule deer foundation. So those are members of nine thousand different It is the remembers: it's not people. We represent entities like corporate entities. Profit. So do you, when you say republican government used not even get a foot in the door with the democratic opening up of the democratic governs associated, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely and like you, you'll get a one on one meeting or no, absolutely great conversations with the there's. A lot of you know, there's great that so again gone down the rabbit, who I don't think you can classify good Politicians based on party, I think you have to really look at the individual and see if those individuals looking to facts if they're trying to find things out in general, I think that you beings are smart and if people are objectively looking at facts are going to come to their going, make good decisions

and I don't think, it'll just instinctively slam the door in your face that they don't even hear about it. Now I mean I'd be lying. If I said it wasn't more difficult in some offices than others because of you know dave, and I and like you know, you've you've got a whole group of people sometimes to charge through to be able to talk to the guy who's in charge and with comes lot of opinions that comes lothar here, comes a lot of history and life, history in background thoughts and levels of experience and levels of education. So when you're, working with your political fig This goes for everybody. Listen you! Ye have to be cognisant of that. You have to be respectful of that. If you're trying to talk to a guy and convinced of something try and understand where he's coming from before, throw your idea out there on the table and demand that he believe, as you believe, you have to work your way into that, and You know I'm lucky that I work for an organization where I don't think we are doing the right thing. And so it may very easy for me to be able to walk through what I do. to be truth in what I believe to be facts and then to walk people into I think, as you know, the the right

vision based on truth and facts, and I think that you know you mean that I feel lucky work where I work. Workin for governor meat was the same way when you work for a politician you believe in, and you believe, he's doing all those things for the right reason. It makes it very easy to go to work every day in a field What about yourself at the end of the day when you, you know, turn off the computer. You give us an example of like something, an idea you might pitch. When you go into these offices. yeah see there's tons of a constitution. Right on fish in utah, so Casey Snyder we visit, representative snyder, when he just gone to the letter, nature. So that's what the legislatures that I work and so, when I say I worked legislatures, I mean you know from january till April, on travelling around all these different states, in a meeting with lawmakers constantly to talk about things that we, weaver priorities every legislature and the countries can have a five hundred plus bills every year. Or some as can be trying to change some piece of law, and so

jobs, try looked at those who make sure that I'm catching if there's something that's negatively affecting hunting in shooting sports I life issues and things like that. I'm trying to analyse as every one of those things try and figure out whether or not you wish we have a position as an organisation that we can take if we don't, if we and make one, and then we share with no to go back and air, NATO's lawmakers is as best as possible and what we think facts are and why we think that you know think people for a certain way so, for example, the right to hunt fish in utah representative snyder revisit with him about it and he believed, was important debate both sides. It will be some people will say. Well, you don't really need to. You now have a constitutional right on fishing. state constitution, who would take away the right to hoddan fish? And so then we respond to that I'm going to go visit without law makers. Able look you know in if they have already outlawed bear hunting, there's places you know in in nebraska they tried to outlaw. This is one I'd worked to haul, so they tried to outlaw hunting cougars and it deva

in every state, you get these different rules. rags laws that come up, and so I'm talking with him about this and say this is why you need to have the state have a a constitutional right. This has no, we believe in in hunting and fishing as regulated by our game. Fish agencies that that's a individual right that should be protected under the state constitution, because if you don't it's, it's not fair. that people will come in and they will use they'll chip away at that individually. They'll find excuse, For, while you shouldn't be able to trap with this kind trap in this area and in, although, though, whittle away at that, and that's not I'm not making that up that happening it today and so what Do as we try and convince the lawmakers to pass legislation or to defeat legislation. That would you know us? Take those things away, and so that's what I do for a living.

Is lobbyists naughty? Word nuclear? Your around now, not really! No I'm sorry. I, cause people love to hate lobbyists, but they don't realize that the lobby and I'm a lobbyist and I'm a registered lobbyist in a couple of different states. I'm not you know, but you don't depending on the laws of each state? It's totally For me, this is such a you know you throw them without their means, different things, states based on different illegible. if priorities and different rules and rags again, and so in some states, I've he's, a guys that I work with dive, some fantastic people that I with it. But you know I would mention their names, but in colorado in places like where they have those existing relationships, so you might have individuals that are super passionate about wildlife and sportsmen's issues in colorado and and some of the the as democrats, some of those guys publicans and depending on who is in office, you need to know those people because you have to be able to get through the door to door.

to that decision maker hill and, if you have put yourself in the position of alienating all the people that you need to work with when something big comes up, you're not going to be effective and so for us. That's why we? We need to make sure that we nurture relationships and we care about people regardless of political party and all those in states where we work because firearms issues, sportsmen's issues, they're, not begins or Democrats They are now these issues. These things we care about. These things are important. They're apolitical So if you allow yourself to be just lost in this you no idea that everything has to be associated with an hour de next to it. You you that's real tough. mission to be, and because you know ultimately than europe put yourself at the whim of whoever you made enemies with its I see you wanted it like period. medically you going. It locked out a certain states for eight years or twelve years, and it makes no sense perpetually pragmatically.

Michael Jordan, prob noticed Michael Jordan, John legal, jordan experts. I watched last ants. Well, jordan's olympic, you and everybody said they wanted him to respond on something you say: hey republicans by sneakers too. I mean sitting over there and lasting damning. There's a there's a lot too that you know that without plus hunting in the shooting sports is like these things. They are that they cross political divide. dave wilms? Now national wildlife federation senior director of western wildlife. That's big title and acting BP, oh father glance. Yeah yeah Yes, I see what we can do, something with just the ideal support scores, NATO's look about what that. So it's I live. Governments also join the national while a federation and I think the easiest way to describe it for folks are not familiar with

the national federation is, you heard, arrange a rick obama. That's us right! So that's our flagship commission, so the national I left federation arrange risks. Allow you, oh yeah, can you get my kids a subscription? You can sending alive you did. I can. I can, I irish ranger rick. As a kid I arrange Eric Rick was dead now. Ranger rick is alive and well doing doing great Well, yeah yeah still still our flagship. Can we also have a couple of other publications out there, you can still get management is right now we're getting the week for kids like that, don't I'll go get ranger it now we'll talk after I was, boys life guy. You boys, like arrange, arrange Eric. I dunno boys life boy, scouts a voice? Golfing, oh yeah, are you are you? Are you need a scout close gay hold on hold on sorry? We?

yeah cause. We gotta we're a lot. We got a lot right right, so this those introductions right so national wildlife federation, ranger, rick national wildlife federation, was founded back in nineteen. Thirty. Six, so nineteen thirty six present about in risk not teddy, obviously, but frankly, are here in response to conservation small over the country convened this conference is still goes on today by the north Eric and wildlife conference, which has held every march every year, convenience conference, brought everybody together to have a big conversation about like the idea was there are there are hungry? of these sports organizations conservation organizations that working on the local level doing a lot of great things? But there was none. And bringing them altogether to advance federal policy to help wildlife recovery across the country

yeah. There was this recognition at the time we were still dealing with the the fallout from the market, hunting and edo, and the expansion west, and just wiping out all these herds of all these animals all over the place, all in all the different wildlife that we maybe take for granted a little bit today, and so we so we got to convened this group bring everybody together and and this guy by the name of darling, who is actually a cartoonist, a pulitzer prize winning cartoonist from a newspaper in Iowa political satirist, right right, yeah, exactly so it was a he has a big wildlife refuge named after him. He does he. Actually, he actually designed for stuxnet federal duck stamp technica. He was the head of what used to be the the proceeding organization of efficient, while I've service is also the first president of the national wireless, duration, and he was he was, and he was the one that can help convened this week with the president and others convened this big conference bringing a. I think two thousand people attended at the mayflower hotel in washington d c and oh,

the end of this conference. What they decided is we needed a large federation. We needed a week life federation, the brought together all of these interests from all over the country to take all these laws, the interests and and and really focus the efforts. One of the things they were talking about at the time is the same thing you hear about today, but is we don't have enough funding for wildlife management right? We, you know nobody wants to do the right thing. Everybody recognizes that wildlife struggling, but we now have the funding to put into it, and so this was one of the first things that happen so that this guy. since convenes creates the national. I live for russian others conference and one of the first things that the national while ephedrine does is help pass. The pigment robertson act, all the big. Firstly, this be piece of federal legislation. Fear! Ok, how do we at federal level, help get resources on the ground for while I've recovery so that the roots history of organization is you're with the this big tent idea.

of bringing together everybody from ag interests and bird watchers and was anglers and everybody that that can say, ok might not agree on everything, but, let's work on the eighty percent of things that we agree on and let's try and improve the situation for wildlife and habitat. I don't and that's been the mission really of the national wildlife federation ever since so today you know fast forward, eighty years where we are one of the largest, if not the largest conservation Oregon, it's an organization, the country of six million members and and supporters. We have an additional two million members through our affiliate network, which is made up of fifty two affiliates from all over the country, so we're here in Montana the montana wildlife federation is one of our affiliates, our affiliate it's these fifty two, more than half of whom are what you'd call your traditional hooking bullet clubs right there there founded on really the hunting and angling principles, And- and then we have a couple dozen right that are, there are more of the

There aren't really that are more the environmental type of group right out, so you got some of the groups that are just that. That that are I do not have a struggle near there have a stated anti hunting position, but you get the sense that they their prey conversations are very anti hunting sore like likes, for biological diversity. Are they in your group? No, not that I've nicaragua across know and what's interesting about the way we operate as a federation is so at the national while federation are affiliates, actually set our policies in our direction. Organizational direction sea have on ones, If the coin, you have your traditional hook and bullet that you view as may be a little bit more conservative right and then on the other side, you have more of your traditional environmentalism using very broad labels. they tend to be more left leaning and they come together at our annual convention every year and they set our policies, and so they have to agree

and what that usually means is we come in right down the middle on things and we aim to be a nonpartisan organization that really just wants to make sure wildlife and people thrive in an ever changing world. That's our mission statement. So, we're a big tent organization, but we have of our membership, I believe eve. The last I saw nearly two million of them are identifies. Your either hunters are or anglers like they are hunters, are anglers or are interested in hunting and angling. That makes us a pretty significant player in the hunting and fishing world, but we also have this other side of our organization that you have your backyard gardeners and no, we have your folks in the city that want to do do right by wild life in their backyard, and we have a garden for wildlife probe. or you can have a habitat in the yard. The school will recognise our doing good things for wildlife for pollinators whatever, so just a big big

percent and then some mine, my niche within that, is right now, our public lands programme, which is primarily focused in the western united states on public lands issues, although we do some in other places where their public lands and a lot of western wildlife issues which actually turns out there's in law. There are an awful lot of overlap between those two. I can imagine so we're going to hang in a minute here. We're going to hit you with a They were a talk about. it's gonna have a lot of touch points of you, boys. Why arming public lands so you're like the one or two what no dave and actually still work together, a tonne issues, Dave's org, They share. My word urbanization both sit on a w cp american wildlife conservation partnership and, interestingly enough, you know we were joking about this. When we both got a dog man, you just we can't get, you can't get rid of each other. In fact, he was talking opinion robertson,

organizations are members, were the folks at work within the view of the time and, of course, in a weak one sure people know like our membership, guys struck? The pigment robertson check? Yes, good duplex and there, and we we may have to talk about over- denies influences. Solution as in lobbying for what happens in the united states congress, yes or first, were both of organizations have a government affairs. I don't do that. Personally, we have a government affairs team that works with with congress in DC or our affiliates. Do the work in bulk at the at locally at the state level, and I'm I work more on the advocacy policy legal side and and help provide those folks with the right information right when they need it. Two to ask make the right asks and occasionally occasionally I'll go to. I don't go to revolt, evans association with other western governors, association in Google,

a lot of the wireless conferences were state while I've agencies come in really it's important to have those relationships with state, while effigies in particular, I've had exposure to state legislatures in michigan at home in tobacco. I was president of the association, not too thing down. But it's amazing to me how stupid I don't have any other word state legislatures can be, as about bringing out laws that you mentioned or they're extremely intelligent and every state legislator is handsome these guys, throwing out nothing but olive branches over here at any bar? I'm just speaking from my experience. It's a different yeah michigan I've been adhering where I have anthem As legislators now are new and senators, they went from state legislatures to the federal level and I'm thinking this person as no clue- and I always am bathed it. How any there? How do they do what they do not know,

going on around them, lad lobbying! That's why? Because fewer good law, because if I came and told the wrong off exactly four Here's the thing nearby you this We get one for you guys, our our our colleague sam James sale, order by sam hello, tell me what you do around her my role here- is the general merchandise manager and what I do is I build, and debate an assortment of price for the meteor Webster and this assortment of products is based on the products that our team of content contributors uses Their pursuits, whether that's our hunting team or fishing team and our coronary team. So if I were you, Firstly, with our content, aims and then are. My goal is to provide the the product bring the product to the people so that you can. For our followers are listeners and our viewers. They can learn about the

I said our team is using and then come to our side and in understand why we use that product, why we think it's the best and and why they should consider buying it for their own purposes. But today sam is here he's to tell us about. I know how I found out about this site. great great uncle otto yup, vented this I got enough when you ve known about this invent, and promoted a instead of a round triangle bullet a triangle shaped bullet which are good, which never took off correct no you say, never took off so it never multiple meanings, meanings that I, I guess I'm guessing took off. It flew, but a hit flu. it didn't. Take off They are. What walkers through here is that this is a good story. Is so my great great great grand uncle

his name's otto snail accuse one of so he's a great great great grand uncle yeah you'll be prior him without him, get in trouble like that distant brother of my great great great grandfather so annexes I believe, that's gotta grand uncle. Auditioning, like was his name, and he is one of three boys. Their parents were killed in a runaway carriage accident in germany in the mid eighteen, hundreds maybe they were made orphans in they travelled each individual carriage yeah. That's that's part of the room that I did for today. They were killed in a runaway carriage accident, both appears tragically killed there. The boys were made orphans along Sister in each one of them were they in the carriage do that I'd? That's a good question! I assume not man,

might be a good time machine token right area. If I'd like a lot of can, I might take one to go see that happen yeah If I had one token, that's not what I would do with it. we'll get do. I know. Oh I'd go back to see the first Americans enter the western hemisphere and I'd ask some questions but sounds great maybe the next time I go, find out what happened on it with that runaway air jackson well The three boys and their sisters were made orphans. They eventually all came to him. Independently and the three boys, Oh hugo and email began working in the firearms business Otto was the inventor he's gonna get. Did you say already wrote what year they came

came around to eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties or so german orphaned, kids, german, orphaned, kids and and the the three boys. So Otto is my great great great grand uncle and his brother Hugo is my great great great grandfather. Now Otto was the one who passed the three o seven triangular round and revolver, Hugo. Go you, interestingly, as well. He worked for the winchester company and new haven connecticut for fifty years. And he. is said in our family law or to be the disease, or of the winchester model. Ninety four! Now now that's not what in in in the history books and line. So I don't want a mistake, but that's what I said: a family, narrow, family records, man cut acreage story about the hour.

My one of my childhood mentor, my dad's close friends of the feller name, eugene growers he had in his a seed, build these overhead gun rags. Then he had he like that gone for every year, he'd been alive. I like a scam, so mozilla is lacking as aid easy now and again, just like the roof is like. I was safe, the ceiling is basically carpeted in firearms one day too young to realise how what an act of generosity is he one day in my presence. Why was turn legal firearm age, which twelve michigan he one day, ah acts as though he just made a discovery that he's eighty but there's eighty one guns Could I do him? The favor of taken one of em and he gives me bar model. Ninety four with it

site and I went on shoes, not boys. I want one shoot deal with this thing and then one day, took it down to the wood store, which had a gun countered, sold that son of a bitch man for three hundred fifty bucks. you can buy it now for three hundred fifty biased. No, I wanted to go find that gun again. I want that one back, I'm just saying like when you find that gun somebody's got that somebody listen to this already, like somebody. Listen to this part, gas has that gun, leg. I think those called I can't members would stove gun, store, gun store in my hometown and we go on by nineteen? Eighty three, it was the best selling high powered rifle in history. I think they sold over seven million of them so they're out there, by which here it nineteen eighty three eighty three family needs a good lawyer to get some of them way back yeah. So in family they're, like so they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, the history books say one thing, but everybody knows that yeah apparently

Hugo was according to our family history books. He was hired by winchester in it twenties. He was a gunsmith in new orleans at the time and he was brought onto too big to winchester to become their chief of design. That's what's in the history of a family history book Scully But but if you look it up, it was john brown, some browning guy desire that guy suddenly saw he no browning loved. yeah, it's as if, as soon as you said that I was going to ask you notes, I think that I recognize another name associate with that. Browning, of course, is amazing. I have not heard of the triangular bullet and I saw first pictures of the patents. Yes in its current share them with resource variant. Staying in the yes interesting us, some of that stuff there some really fascinating stuff out there. When you go back in history- and get some of the firearms in history. Somebody other lewis and clark

comes to mind immediately no packing around a bolt I shot. aragon, exactly you know, in their early eat the off. like that, the people which is never imagined were invented, it's just really fascinating. I agree we get Otto I gets otto auto whatever yeah, I got it, basically, the folks of otto snails. Eighteen, seventy two triangular a triangular revolve invention, was to create a more effective personal protection firearm, because the public at that time was becoming increasingly interested in in carrying their own pistols for personal protection and the battlefield weapons of the time were too heavy into large for concealed carry. And so The major gone manufacturers started designing in developing a person- protection revolvers and most of em. I believe the first one is created, bye

and wesson their model one and was a twenty two rim, fire pistol revolver in it shot eight browser it. He round. Capacity Eventually, the public wanted to have greater firepower above twenty to answer. Smith and wesson created a thirty two caliber revolver, but it only held six shots and then the the the public wanted the channel became. That's the public wanted higher capacity. revolver, with greater stopping power with greater bullet bullet weight. So this is where snail I came in. He wanted to create a revolver that had a heavier bullet and so had to hire capacity. So here

triangular idea, traveller bullet idea was basically like if you cut an orange and half and you look at the sections in the orange the nature of the triangular bullets they fit together in a tighter cylinder within that revolver all had thought drive and at yeah, so he could was like lighted up a bunch of circles is just touch edge the edge and create a lot of metal exactly so his concept. in the invention, was he took the same cylinder out of a twenty two revolver and was able to fit seven thirty I believe, as seven thirty two caliber bullets within the same cylinder as a twenty two caliber. So what was previously that Twenty two revolver shot: eight bullets, the the existing thirty

caliber revolvers from smith and wesson shot seven. He could she could shoot eight of the same caliber in the smaller package if they were shaped like a triangle, if their shaped like a trial and. You never really got off the ground. He got the patent and, interestingly, he got a secondary patent a few years later for an improvement on a breech, loader gun in that patent was about creating an attachment to go within their breech loader that could adapt the beach letter to shoot rim fireballs because they were just centre fire at the time Yeah, so that was kind of interesting too so do you guys have around and these old triangle pistols and triangle ammo, I don't we don't to my knowledge. There is only one that exists. That's that's got to try your bore as well, but sir, Where does it say that

not sure about. That's the word from my grandmother that she knows, and at one point there was one person who had bought this revolver and they're looking for it, but but beats me. Did you guys have this complex just to make me happy because, like honestly, like such a guy about this guns. Nowhere is there to talk about this for a long time now thought you what you might join now. Its awesome is super super interesting because I, like you, look at the advancement of people were making, unlike the eighteen, fifty and some other stuff that your talk about and then that the technology the times how they basically I mean you just described. Firearms design and changes in farms and mean you're your talk about eighteen. Fifty, you could have been talk about any time last two hundred years, because that's me, that's It is the like that's how it works in this country like its typically people don't know about innovations and firearms designs. Alms always come from the civilian market and its driven by p.

But who have real world concerns and real world needs. And then it goes back to some engineer: who's, the guy who's working at a company like browning or like winchester or like colt, and then their face trying to figure out why Stephen Manila wanted this thing in his garden and figuring out a way to make it work, and then they test it and they roll it out to the public and they see who likes it. And then you know it's it does like it and then it becomes popular and then, interestingly enough, like a lot of times, you hear people think that, like these advancements come from military direction. They drive down the civilian market. This is not the case actually goes the other direction it civilians. like was lewis and Clark who come up with. You know the hockins rifle you know better guns and then, ultimately you know these things are proven. That their workable technologies than they make their way. The other direction to where you know, Terry guys will will start using some of those products to improve the stuff, have access to, and just it's real fascinating aspect of american firearms culture, this back Fourth and interaction: that's all occurred in our country, saying

The guy you know, put rifling in a in law rifle on the banks of while missing creek under sixteen hundred. We'll of all glottal do here come over the great idea and struck at rich. You know what and he was actually killed a shooting, a competition by a careless companion while yeah he really yeah in you guys my fun assisting the app He after he enlisted in the two, your term it in the union army as volunteer. He he got through, though the war was injured civil war veterans, civil war, veteran, the energy. We start now operate about the same time. I believe that was eighteen, seventy eighteen, seventy one and couple years after they founded, then our aid they started, holding shooting competitions and he got into these and according to

and raise annual reports from eighteen. Seventy three dating semi six otto pretty well in these any even one of this one one of the sportsmen competitions. So he was a competitive sugar and it was actually it was It was competitive, shooting that was ultimately his demise. He was killed on the shooting ranch. May I accidentally shooting firearms accidents and firearm incident seem to be so much higher in days when you re life and death at the mouth of the mussel shell, which I recently read. I mean people just because people are trying to figure stuff out, but man. She, themselves on accident should each other on accident allowed the things you take for. like a lot of this sort of behaviour is we take for granted around safety. Just was not baked in your hunter safety. Wasn't around here. I think it's interesting today. Its shoot exports are safer,

than any high school sport, that you can pull up safer than soccer? written softball, seven, you name it. You know lines up us look at some statistics, billiards, yeah, really early injuries per hour. It's like a writer but there's a lot of this is an area of severe injuries on the billiard table. There are not a reason for not, as I'm our rates like rate right leg. It was like all ignoble, just hanging down husky balboa. You look. like the rates and when you get down to like rate of injury per hour spent per practitioner, I think it lines up with pool and billiards it's super low and that's like yoenis hit it on the nail on the head it has to do with it has to do with. Where we ve come to in a firearms, related accidents are near, time lows right now: they ve like it really is its if a safe endeavour to get into that said it's because people need to follow the rules, their certain rules of firearms safety? Will. What they are right number one, and we may talk about these gangs.

super important number one every always loaded, even if you have decided in your head. You don't think it's loaded, even if the guy that hands a gun to you says it's not loaded. Every gun is was loaded. Every gun is was loaded. You treat it like. It's always loaded, no matter what even view just check the chamber and you think it's not lord. You treated like it's always loaded. You know I don't I bought recently that I couldn't finish reading it was them it's called dying. dont montana, and it's a a exhaustive catalogue, broken down by cause of death. everyone they can find in the history who has died, hunting here, all the other died from grizzly bears exposure. Anything you could like the fact is

took the time to put this together is amazing. Did they write a story about each person alive? It's like two sentences that could be longer. Can you really interesting if you hold back store a lot of us? How many masters lot of some of have, though bags irish teeth year back in the one you're back the thirties, forties, fifties and you're in the the hunting accident section: you can't Just like that, there was a sort of mental shift that occurred about firearm handling. Well, it like that, kicked in some point between then and now we're just the amount of things we like what? What like crossing a fence crossing a fence crossing a fence Handing the gun to someone under the fence. and I think that there there's like we ve somehow got to appoint, reaches ground little more paranoid, let's it's like it. Doesnt have repair,

No, it has to be habit, and I think that's what we ve gotten into now and, to be frank, the one of the challenge, the sea like go to a shooting sports competition. Now right you were york, your girl, taylor, no right you watch somebody like that handle a gun at arrange what never happens. The gun never points anybody. Why? Because there's a practice, if that, ever pointed at anybody, that's ever point in the wrong direction. You're done for the day. You're gonna go by ice cream. You're not welcome here, because you're you're handling practices aren't correct. Other, the other things minerals of farm safie also obeyed. There's, you know, you know, point a fireman anything you now willing to destroy. Why? Because it's always loaded, you never have your finger on it bigger and the manual safie disengaged and tell you ready to shoot. Why? Because the firing I always loaded, even if you're not putting. Then you don't want to destroy and then last you never ever point a firearm at something to shoot. It put. Your safety, often finger on the trigger, unless you know exactly what you're going to shoot and exactly where the bolts,

to be sure, retarget what's beyond it. Why? Because sponsible for every board that comes out of the gun and through shooting sports, like none of that is negotiable. It all happens all the time, and so, when you go to places where people participating in the shooting sports those safety things are baked in. Unfortunately, if you that's what people become the inner we see- we see this actually in community hunting community way too much become people become. They can decide that they can be lackadaisical with the rules of firearm safety because I've been doing since I was ten years old and now I'm this age or whatever. I've always done it. This way, right where guys stage they take short cuts. They don't owe bay. the rules. They put the gun to carry a weird way. They think it's ok to you know, do certain things and what you see, is when you see competitors and you see I've heard. Had people saved silly things, I've ever heard. Someone say well look at guys who were like an elite military units, they point guns at each other, all the time. No, they don't know

I'll get a collapse of the best shooters best people in the entire world. Their zeal tolerance for breaking the rules, a firearm safety and its baked in and that's something that we need to do a sportsman. We need a bake the static. We just have to insist on that, because you know you take. I take you to take new guys, hunting all the time. I'm sure I do the same thing It stinks to half the yell at a guy, for so small, don't yell at him literally, but it's not bond. To have to be the guide have to remind the six time. Don't point that at me you know, through doing that, if you do that enough days, enroll guess what he doesn't point. Doesn't you to you appointed anybody else and then its his turn. Somebody else not too in order to be to be muzzle aware, but if we don't do as a community like it's, it's that its having its caring about somebody enough to make sure they have good firearms handling skills that has made So that we're not the nineteen twenties anymore so that you can go to a shooting competition and not work

about your physical safety, and it is something we have to do? all real, quick and they'll. Do this other real, quick thing, I have noticed this might be anecdotal. I have noticed in my lifetime a different attitude about chambering rounds now waste in high school, it was like part of stepping out of the truck you throw one was his because no one because of their pants down right, so It was always ready to roll and then Have the safety. You knows and in between you- and I have noticed in my rather extensive so the circle. People are a little more deliberate about when it might make sense to rack one in, and walk out and certain decoys, maybe maybe a racket when you're all set up and not This kind of like habitually habit racked

all times during all activities like we're more careful about that now now you get set up. Blind made Satan ain't out there. I throw one in the tube I'm going win. I'm not that guy used the targets in its I've watched friends that do what you're talking about, like don't rack into lessing, like on an account, for example, and I watched him forget and pull up in just click, right. Where is the last second editors- is being deliberate on it. I mean it's not like I'm writing down the road wrapped up, but like when I go set up a migration, las vegas, fragile site. Where I get my gun it put it in the blind and then I said everything up, because someone comes in here yeah barrel roll back, and you guys that I got there is any doubt it I only overly cautious, but

Those things are gonna be like those are can be person. Lasciviously can be cultural decisions that can be family decisions, the one thing I would say, is I don't think all of us here? We can argue about that till her blue in the face obey the for fun. Mental rules of firearms safety. If, if you the for finance rules of firearms safety, literally every other instance that you're going to talk about or imagine your head goes away. They don't exist if you obey those for rules. Are we dealing with ato than the triangle Was there old, the old tragedies happened and his family? Well there, actually two more things I want to mention in, but one of the reasons that Otto didn't make it his is and make it is because called became, producing the single action army, revolver, ok, the coal, forty five in eighteen, seventy three

and that really blew up in the following years when they started creating shorter barrel options for civilian carry. So that was that was one of the big reasons. Not just is death at it didn't go anywhere and then the other thing that just to mention is that the third brother, my there, great great great, a grand uncle. He workforce, springfield armoury massachusetts for fifty years. So these are three. caravans from germany that came to america on their own independently and then ended up being innovators and and developers within the firearms trade in the eighteen. Fifty is to turn the early nineteenth in nineteen hundreds covering this full circle again, yeah go for it friday, meaning the day after thanksgiving just a couple of days ago. My son My eleven year old son took possession of his great grandfathers.

Springfield mark one nineteen o three, which was manufactured in nineteen nineteen and that now sits my gun safe, as we go. That's awesome, Scott, that little red read something redfield. Pierre will pete bear he bought. So he was an whisky whisky too, in the pacific theatre, and came home and is bought a gun like what he was issued when he was training in the military and that's where he bought bought it used for twelve box and he still had the receipt. That's awesome yeah my real fired up shoots up with it real fired up. That's that's. Nice really eyes excited those cool, It's all are origin, also, bodies, group six begin arsenals of oddities the to support our access initiatives. Europe mediator, we add a new york's met in new york, mats, baseball, bat, sigh,

by our our body; polar bear, p alonzo, so you go get there bad side by him and use the thumb vision head after you catch him. We have to try but by turning concert, trample by turtles concert tickets that day I'm in that it has been on the show, is well so penal law It been the this part. Gas dave simon S. Bananas on his if you go find the one that day was on. It was episode to thirty five called sex guns and bluegrass. So Dave has the tickets, and when you buy this path if you go to the concert and you go back stage to attend them, in greece with Dave. It will be playing this. good for colorado's red rocks, amphitheatre

in July of twenty twenty two, so you can get tickets for colorado, red rocks, amphitheatre, go back, meet dave and all paid here's another weird one. You can get so spencer south an chester have all volunteered to let you pick what you want them: have tattooed on their arm. You are giving you a quarter source the size, but twenty five cent piece they're giving you quarter sized portion of the It will state on the arm. You pick a tattoo design, they will get. This will be sets first tat so you selected design and in three people the flip flop, lasher spencer in chapter the dye vaster

all will bear your nose? I says here fail to oh, no, no, no! No! No! No! No! That was part of the initiative as you care about conservation. We talk about that later, but now it was just the. Why is that you jumped on board? I thought referring to on board like getting attach to train, not not this specific tattoo. What's wrong! With this plan, it sounds like a great plan. I just don't know if I'm a condemning those boys are going to bring in a little bit of money student, those boys, those boys are being like, not smart. I support it totally, but man, so you just explained why I'm not going to be ok! That's Are you that's what he'll know, but you know. A quarter on your arm would really bring in the box about what it's at your mom, my wife or the last on tattooed couple in america.

what but I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get that world slam, turkey to entire mouth If you get it, do you know I'm not? get a outline outline of like north america, amar dot, were all the turkeys from my turkey worlds. Lamb came from a net sweet my kids vital my little boy that my six year old boy, he almost our decry he like thinks tattoos. Her very like does not a good idea he's an understandable, What did he was already that water tank? Maybe he really understand him, what about it. How do I get money? What I take like this, you say if, if we just had that person she's, just shell out. Whatever number you put, you pay. You probably wanted real careful about. Oh, like what amount of money yeah for you to do. A quarter sized, that's using all that money would go to cant land access, five hundred thousand dollars. That's it! How long do you have to keep the tattoo? Because,

I understand that thing right, so you could get the tattoo period of time like a permanent ease. We ever got into that level yet, but yeah they could do. They could pull a fast one like that. I don't think they're going to pull a fast one and everything is spencer's. Getting this whole damn arm tattooed. So it's just going to be the mid term review our stock and for you that year- and we all know about our legal standing of what they might do for me, but it would take five hundred grand. Unless it was what I want if they are to get a pic? What I want any ways it out just do it, but I don't know if I want nor my wife has want me that my wife is widely tattooed, took a lot of. well familiar resistance against this whole idea, but, like our friend pat durban, He had started getting tattooed in sixties. Guess he thinks by time he's sick of me you'll be dead so that dude's covered a new tattoos. Because he does not have enough time to regret it, he says he good. I think, there's still cool guy that

I just want a saturday night live he's like all his all those tattoos and he said, you'd go onto the process of having them all removed right now he David's yeah and he's talking about being, like the most painful, millions of wondered. I don't understand how enabling us baffling like he's the least funny person plant he's like that, It's like the least pony funny person, yeah disease dating some. Agha famous model like a different one, every single month. It's just it's wild. I don't understand it yeah. Hi, you be their own funny. Have you want it? ro son comedy central that were really pretty, I only see him come and, unlike screwing up several night live gets. but not even in the funny way,. I know the middle age. Mr, I gotta keep move. No, it's not a middle age thing. I think a lot of fun does not help you get the

pick the tattoo, they get it on their arm, so those guys are being opened there offer access. My personal spear gun, which have been for a few years now. if used successfully, so season ten and our next episodes the drop, foresees intent on netflix you'll, see spear, we're gonna air, mean Jani. Super famous spear gun youtube video, that's the gun in there. I've used it, mexico, hawaii, mereka or damn place. That gun is up for action Barks tree saddle from back forty somewhere, kenyans tethered mantis tree saddle the he use. kill the wider. I'm mediators back forty. Signed and donated by mark canyon, we some arts and crafts types of a lot of it. And and corinthians crystal critter collection cell.

There sit of you right now. these are handmade red squirrel sterling silver, her camera diamond jewellery sat includes hearings a necklace, pendant anna ring all made of sterling silver in squirrel, feet sterling silver and squirrels These bad boys around beautiful work, my daughter, shit, her pants, tell him you like legitimately right now like this- is literally I'm holding a napkin like us tissue paper body. full demands are on the right. It is. I have read those realities, lurie tiny little feet beautiful, well, for earrings all kinds of girl for jewellery brody's turkey, for what flip the bird, which is a great I love making those things you make a little plaque give me the finger brody's get one of those. Now here's a weird one and the ox now ass, a body

and we ve? I have one in my personal collection now yet hear me out, because we ve checked into this. This is legit. It's a brick, Kay read you look at these bricks. They know these sons of bitches are all it's a brick, the general store that Jim bridge you're owned in Kansas city Missouri. We have three of them I ran hold one wave. It's in my it's him on display in my house I rattled one wave me spencer, has won in spencer, is given the third brick from Jim, but gers general store in Kansas city Missouri and the auction house bodies. And you can check in the pedigree this brick and everything is legit check this one out. Here's a good item a guided tour of the dirt family farm. You get the ghost when the day do in a tour, diving burns going

dont eight four hours, Ben four hours, touring dont you withdraw turn getting a tour of doug durance farm, the talk about wildlife management, Habitat management how a family farm pay the bills and provides access and does the right thing by wildlife. You talk about all this with dark. I could spend four years, driver our dog tumbled, stop on dogs bar he's a wonderful to her guide, we'll take it gets cheese kurds he would. Even their way in a whole jar of batman juice. You do not work need to worry about the authenticity of the buck. Man juice cause. You can watch dog try to wait a minute you're just going to let you watch him emit the dog man juice. the four hours and he will fill that jar up. I feel like you've crossed the line here. No, it's a it's a wonderful idea. If you're into his,

mind you, but I've got even maybe a better idea. I think we should go national with that idea. you could have. It was cancelled version of bergmann juice and then you could set up franchises all over the country gibbeted have to like, like do whatever they they have the same diet is dog. Does had to lay out a regiment for them of how he produces such a potent juice. Other taylor, The latvian eagles version works too, oh really. Well, you feel you got. I don't know. A lot of deer came by my standards, we're in wisconsin True, what we'd have to do is put up a trail. Can you take a on a tree and Doug takes a whiz on a tree and every wait and see what because revenues. What I'm saying I adventure is, is the problem but made uses is not scalable.

But we don't know that we haven't, we haven't, we haven't tested it as the market and it's all over and someone starts, gets to calculate how much you're in one man can produce. It might be like an expose a like. Do you remember when it was exposed day on do in heat? Urine and someone when looked at in all the sporting restores around the country. How much do you he yearned was for sale. And then they went and looked at how many captive does arthur how long the darwin heat for how so she urinate, while she's in here and there there's a lot of stuff out there. It says: don't he ear and that there's no way is urine collected from a dough in heat. I agree like a big scandal. So we do man juice, someone do the math. It might turn out that they're like life, all button, and let me just energy the next level and that low is that you go to all these. You you make it, but man brand the desk

no collide versions of it and you got all these small breweries and I just have a thing: Yes, I like will pay. You know Then you got eyes whose becomes like a brand there's like Doug signature! There you go. The dog signature line and an outcry, like I stopped being in the alley and pee in this cut us right now, that's good. There could be a legal aspect to it, though, because if you turn it over to the cops, I feel, I wrote. Gonna hurt the value of the of your original, you try All we have here is a deal man. This he's gonna now and that is soul If you want to get on the ground floor, you get your dern family farm to this farm, your dog dern dude, our goal for high dollar. I met. I friends a dog durham, because a long time ago I didn't get alot of mail? I got a letter from Doug. And the letter was so touching. I was so drawn to him.

In so moved by his story of his family's property then I went out and visit him here job me up very mean a whole, but he didn't. We became like friends and I'm am one of his biggest cheerleaders and to go and spend time talking about, lay scape in relationships with the land with dog dern is quite a prize there's, a here's, a free item giveaway. So this With all this other junk we're talking about you, gotta bid on like you want those squirrel feet. Jewelry you gotta bid on it. You want to hang out doug got a bit on it. This is for free. It's giveaway item lost sight of the eighty cooler so yeti hopper signed by about Folks, here meters stuffed to the gills full of are merged, tease care It's spices etc. We also got a bunch of other stuff lots of art a guide.

The fishing trip in arkansas, genuine gaiters scoots, so cared tax at all. gator scoots that you lay out on account of which I I want a bit. I myself check it. It's on the auction block. You boys re to get get out brass tacks on some wyoming publicly and stuff do. We can avoid rat holes than this one and the way, the groundwork oh yeah he's got lay the groundwork for Jani. Explain for the eighteen to open We talk about corner crossing, so much the yellowstone public radio story that someone sent to me and in laying out when trying like define corner crossing the journalist, pointed out that we talk about it all the time on this podcast really know. What does that make this pakistan, like always prepared to talk about corner crossing,

but it's like reference material with you might know it from this part. Is that like a popular bozeman based part gas, were there the aim or non about corner crossing so lay out for me. So during my coffee It says what it means or why why why it matters saintly. Now, ass, a lot of places we have with called checker boarded. lands not gonna get into how they got that way from doing the bridge versions are ok, but it is good story, it is, don't worry about, but basically What a checkerboard and if all the black pieces were public and all the red pieces were private and you are able to haunt the public. Just the black pieces. You'd have to hop corner to corner, to make it across a jagger field and access all of the public land,

the technically new and all of us here on and should be able to hunt, but because of rules and states, basically saying that the landowners it only Joining land the red pieces, when there come a corner, they own their airspace above their two quarters as well. So, even though you don't touch their land as you cross over for corn corner your trespass through the airspace above their land, thus making it illegal. Let me ask you a question in writing. What would you imagine. would you imagined it they're not actually concerned about your shoulders passing over their airspace? What do you think they really are after control of said, public lands? Like it just it's all for you, so it's like a price

see, is this airspace issue, like I don't think anyone's like ta worry about my airspace. I think they're, like man, I'm worried about bunch holders walk and through landed time immemorial head just been available to me in my family, very? Even though I don't pay taxes on a very small rabbit hole? I apologize. Why is there so much checkerboard and land because they, when they put the railroads in that's how they gave away the land? It's that simple. Roads would encourage, settle men and they did all kinds of transaction through land. So the railroad, come in and into incentivize railroad construction. They would give like for every true. As the as the the railroad company was lay and track. They were subsidized by land grants. Ok, so you would get like it could be different deals. I get fifty miles on either side of the train tracks. If you build the tracks. Then those people needed to encourage settlement to have something to to have freight, but I'm not going very

general here, share the railway companies. Do to encourage settlement, and they had the land they could dispose of what they will, but oftentimes. They would give em every other section gacha an issue our unease corner to corner touching pieces. Ok, so in some areas, it's literally You might look at an area that you might look at an area that could be a safe townships, size or thirty six square miles, the entire thirty six square miles might be like literally checker boarded mile squares, touching on the corner and over two million acres. sometimes you get into a situation like this, where less, have. A chunk of belem was take the olympians, because wanna get too, I think, is a balanced report the aid which allowed there's a road cut through it, sort of county road and you have access to that beale em. If you could jump one corner.

it might not just open up a bunch of more checkerboard. It might open up a huge contiguous. Block. There are areas where jumping one corner the ability jumped one corner would open up ten thousand, contiguous acres of land so there's some boys and while mean that are in trouble right now. a lot of states like it's on call you're in a lot of states like what the actual thing is. Montana have often recommended against it. policy as we recommend against it. We recommend that you get land on information because the airspace issue for guys they were presence, I feel like they should and residence- for non residents. While me right now are up for criminal trespass because they corner hopped com there's a lot of interest in these fellers prevailing because if they prevail

and their found not guilty of criminal trespass for corner crossing and sets a present People would be less likely dave shaking his head vigorously. Now there's. That's why you're data now so it's not your turn, yet that the for Dave Dave says know that I'm about to say, like we've, got to take a lawyer from wyoming he's got to take up his professional hat, really quick. So this doesn't represent. Can you talk just as day or talk? He was asked to talk to. You is Dave yeah, real date, regular date, Let me say something I have all the names. I have the best luck with Dave's. An incredibly long line of dave's, dr weir Back generation are names. I have trouble with anyone say my eyes and so forth. No, please

there are names. I have trouble with historically and there's names. I do well with historically and david whenever someone's having a kid and they say like we can't think of the name, I'm like out there. We are name's dave because then I'll be friends with him So our trust in you- and I want to hear from Dave not some crazy, ass lawyer, That's not what, if I'm both, not some tight ass, lord! So. A limited local groundwork aperture in your end, or in your analysis of the situation or further I get into this, does it go find me to help these hoped help these fellers fighter legal battle, whereas it was the government give it up Holy cow, like all, go for me, it's like horrible! w w w dot go, find me dot com, slash, F, slash, corner. dash crossing dash legal dash fee fundraiser Bobby

type. Did a bunch of stuff like go, find me corner crossing fundraiser. You will find the thing which People raising money to help these, warner, crosses with their legal fees. Here's my father say about this with corner crossing. I personally purse professionally, would love to see a solution to corner cross. where Ah, we could work out away for people to corner us, but it would need to involve some like careful survey work We need to involve, like I've seen accuracy in some places imagine two adjoining step ladders that hat so you pick. These are key areas, sir. them market out, you have to

joining step ladder. So people are able to draw up a step ladder, land on a platform, walk cross, the platform, the step ladder and sports. I'm sure would be. I would I would all I would take every dime, raise with our access initiative check with care buy back county I do it if we would put, all the money we raise with our access initiative. If Cowles, ok with it two said surveying instead The latter apparatus is in strategic locations. We would for all of that and starch, a teacher we're going to be like here's, an thousand acres for here's another thousand acres use another five hundred acres survey. It marked the corner, put the step. Ladders and. If we could resolve the airspace issue, so now dave what comes to your mind here, all this ok, so I start with Your clothes are made of leary door, gonna get it right.

with this I dont know a hundred per cent of the particulars of this case, so forget that right is particularly right: forget about it, can inform it, but let what let's just tiber engendered just corner, causing jet soda because this is my I'll talk to in the context of wyoming right, but I can't little bit broader right like so. For example, let's start with with the basics, Of there's no law, federal level that specifically allow or this allows pornographic. So there's no there's no statute on the books. What would a law like that say it? Would it would have one that allows it or this allows it jimmy like what yelling? How what would the law be? You know what would it be like in airspace issue, or so I at it. It might right likes right now there s a controls, the airspace, ok, navigable air space or in it in the way that that the FDA defines it is

yeah in urban areas, the the navigable airspace, which is the public domain for airspace, starts at one thousand feet: okay in more rural and unpopulated areas, it's at five hundred feet and that's the f, a a rat that, but there have been some some supreme case law that actually has said well, you'll, maybe actually extends even closer to the ground and that so, but you know at the time, regulations, restart, don't think people really thinking about corner crossing for for hunting accident. wait. So so you'd write a law that, if you are due at the federal level that says you're for purposes of accessing, used, l blm, for example, you know that it would be legal for it. For stepping from one corner at a survey, pin right cut stepping over the survey pinned to another piece of adjacent federal land there,

very simple you? Would you like that nuts and bolts about sore purpose of public at fort travel public access? It is legal to blank. Yet as you do something like that, ok, so the federal thoroughly at the state level, Now this is where I'll get a little make it out of my lane just slightly, because I haven't done survey of every state, but but and I might so am I because I know like in am I get this wrong as in like south dakota you can walk section lines and that's an means of access, but places like wyoming Montana, idaho colorado. Some of those inner mountain. Where states that you think of what the big chunks of public lands there's. No, I I don't know of any law on the books in those states that either permits or specifically prohibits, corner crossing So you start with this fundamental premise of theirs. Surely no law on the book that expressly programme,

that activity or expressly permits it. So then you have to dive a little bit deeper into figured out. So here here's wyoming four eggs. And what so it's rather wyoming could serve. What I know but there is what is worthy of cases right, so In welcoming we do have a law on the books and its ten four statute ten dash forward ass, three o two and three or three, which d winds. The ownership gives the ownership of this ace above the lands and waters of the state, its vested in the owners of the surface beneath that air. So, basically you own the surface, you own, the air above it and there's an exemption car doubt for aircraft, so long as it's not so low that it interferes with the existing use of the land hokosa. Theoretically, it could come. pretty low if you're not interfering with the existing user enjoyment of the private land.

You're scared, the hell out of someone's cattle that might be interviewed might be interfering exactly so. that's where the art you here, that the argument come up, that ok, if you own everything, if you have a law on the books that says the land or on everything from the the ground up and you have these any have laws of surveying? Rather the principles of serving property line says you have a your property line. Is infinitely thin that when you to these corners, there's no way of actually stepping across a corner. Even if you know the survey pin is there without to your point, without your shoulders entering the airspace where, which is where that the argument is that you can't corner cross, because you have this law on the books saying they own the airspace. I think- and I am not taking lay out.

Take a position right? Am I got taken a huge position here? I'm just turned away out what the let me ask you this wasn't so did here a couple of sports be dave right. Let me ask you this. Let's say the whole system of government and rules and willing changed. It just became were now, and then we decide. If there were gonna ass David, it's ok and that becomes the rule the land. and we come to you and we're like this one's in your court. Dave is corner crossing. Ok, you're, not okay. What would you say as do I want it to be ok or is it legal you get to pick and so that come what you're the man you're put mine or put me on it ran a final, the constitution. I eads this. Those words like the constitution says this issue day decide yeah. I figure out, a way to be able to access or public glance right and and so that it's evasive but you're. I think I'm feeling so there are here to examples. I give you for this. If there's a, people in the law when you're

putting a statute. So I look at this one of ownership of airspace. There's a principle in the law called you're going to do in statutory construction, which is your court is interpreting a statute, and you, you start with the plane, meaning of the words on the page It's ok, what's the plane, meaning that the law saying in if the plane, meaning is clear, you dont go any farther, that's what you apply, but there is another point bill in statutory construction. That says, you can't read a stir to create an absurd result. Early that yet and so and so it like high protein. So I propose this here's to examples. I propose to you that it knows that it throw out there in wyoming of examples, If you read the letter of the law, you'd be trusted, sing every time. But I've never heard of anybody cited for trespass in these two examples, because it would be an absurd result. One of them is if the property line is infinitely thin. We have laws for for building fences, for example, if you put

fence up on your property line. That's not infinitely thin. You are by definition trespassing on your neighbors property by putting up that fence, but we like you to do that and we want. We encourage people to do that and in fact fence out state, so if you dont want neighbours, livestock come and your property or encouraged to put up a fence and keep em out. So there an example here: ever seen, somebody cited you follow the statute for how to construct a legal fence and as long as you do that you can put a fence on a survey property line that your property line and even though that fence Is half I on their property? If not a trespass, you can do that now, In our example, I was out so here's my second example of it before I forget it cause. I forgot. Oh yeah, I'm sorry. My second example is so in wyoming waters, the properties of the state, and it's if you want to float

and so the the a landowner may own the bay in wyoming they may own the bed and the banks of the river. You can't put your foot on the foot on the bottom of the river and you're trespassing, but as long as you're on that water you're, not trespassing, so you're sitting on public water, but over private land there before in I bet airspace never heard anybody gets. I ever gonna languages laying down a long long and you to write your Technically everything underneath use private land here. Why do they make airspace argument, there never heard it made because I think it would be. An absurd result was that those are navigable waterways and that the public is idle to use those navigable waterways as long as they don't put there you'll anchored, downer or or get out and wait on the wider buys a reverse. I've ever heard that point raised even talk to me about it, yeah he's a good attorney. You're floating

in shallow water, your closer to their land than you would be stepping over it right. What else We also say you get out, take a leak on the side of the road and you walk down and you point out some nor the fence. You never go Take it for your arm point over the fence right. I thought you know. If you're not like, but if you stand there and I'm like you know what I've read gesture over fence when someone says, I'm gonna give you a citation for having your arm over the fence. There's no way you're in a wind of walking out of court house into fine you're you're right. My my arm waved over the fence. So can you can make it other points on our states from their make a shout of milk or other. So so you get to. Let me talk about the specific points. I think you're honest making the you introducing this introducing this you're. Maybe it will set a precedent or something the that the judicial system were so this is in a circuit court and it's a misdemeanor offence, the penalty for

criminal, trespass in maximum seven hundred fifty dollars and up to six months in jail. For for this mission It's not gonna, resulting jailer, warlike devalued. between two percent and fifty bucks sounds better, isn't it's a misdemeanor offence. If, if the defendants here are our acquitted at the circuit court level, there's no legal precedent, set So is that because its destiny is found at the facts of the situation, showed there wasn't enough to convict. There was enough to show that they actually trespassed or or the facts show that in fact did not try ass, but there's not a legal interpretation of it situation about whether that the application of like ten for three or to the airspace law, whether that creates this, whether the breach the invisible

carrier and eight years, no interpretation as a matter of law there on a on an acquittal. Now, if they are found guilty, Then there is a process to appeal that to the district court and the supreme court, and then at that point can make arguments on matter of law and do this this interpretation and talk about maybe you're reading, an absurd result hears or whatever, and then you could potentially get to the point of having something that sets precedent. But if, at this level, if if they aren't, if they are not convicted at the circuit court level is not, Can you can you plead guilty. And then, if you wanted to do advance likes lesser, you really want to push for a test case. It doesn't work that way now can't plead guilty and then appeal, and now you just play out I mean, I'm not a criminal lawyer. I remember this remind me of another wildlife issue that I to follow. There was a on the flat had reservation in north Montana

there was a rule that like arm s in time, tribal members were able to sell land to non tribal members. So you had a lot of non tribal members who owned land within the reservation boundaries, but because they tribal members it and enjoy certain hunting privilege. On their own land because it was governed, though the hunting was governed for tribal members than ever. Sky. When when I was living overnight neck of the woods, this guy a big scene you're, inviting bunch of people out to do a pheasant hunt ahead eyes be come arrest me please, because he wanted to get it pushed to the right court and he would be fresh, waited because they wouldn't do anything- and he just wanted to get it to a point where it could be clarified in law- he wanted to challenge the law, but they never would take the bait with him. because they knew what he was after is

as someone would just be like. Ok you're not guilty. In order to not do precedent. urges the world network and like a spurious conspiratorial ways like that, you know, and I dont know the answer that I gave a night like that's, not something I can speculate about. I would hope that I would hope that our judicial system works in a way that the fact the situation, the law are applied fairly to everybody and nobody's trying to use it as a way to two games game a system especially in the criminal context which this is in the civil context of, I definitely have seen examples of trying to two game. our way to gain the system, but in the criminal context. I really hope that that, like, I really hope that doesn't happen. So does it seem the go find me is getting ahead of itself like they should maybe not fund these fellers yet So did have them lose real bad. I don't have like like haven't going where the poor legal defence they get convicted. Venue pour the money to him and they

or to the next. A supreme you supreme you wouldn't be here, go state supreme on its estates to ensure data have relied on. It could never go to if it could never go to a federal that eight. You know, I don't think they be making a constitutional argument yoga here. I suspect that this stays at an interpretation of state law on it. It would go to the states bring court, and that would probably be end of it for that, because we're talking about the application of us of a state statute, criminal trust, statute. Are you tempted right now to do like a bomb? sometimes I bigshot lawyers come in and do like. So that is grandstanding. By doing like a pro bono deal, and all that are you, are you drawn if you feel there's a lot of these cases. A lot of situations like this that are tempting yeah for sure attempting to get in there and see. What's going on, haven't been asked reddit I haven't been asked. I dunno if I would be asked, but it's interesting that if it's you're a couple other things on this that I think are worth knowing

As far as women specific law corner crossing at seville there being prosecuted under criminal trespass statute. We have two different well with several different trespass statutes. The criminal trespass is one that the only way you get cited for that is If you know you have either the landowner themselves or law force meant have told you You can't be here, your trespassing, you can't be here or the the And the has posted signs, making it very clear that you are not allowed to be there. So it's it's an but upon the landowner to notify the that person potentially entering the property that it's that their violating that did trespass in that case they can be cited in wyoming and just as corner friends is enough There might not have been offensive. So what I understand my understanding of this particular one- and I might have the facts wrong, but I have been briefed a little bit on it. Was that there's a survey pin but no fence,

and that he actually use the step ladder like you're dogma to cross right, and so never touched the ground on that's correct, bright, yet route super crafty and if it's the spot, I think it is their. There had been some tea postponed into the ground with no no trespassing on the private to make it impossible to squeeze through naw you actually, the only way you can do it was to go over the top No, that was actually it. I may have taken a little forethought to to do this. But these I, why are you seem, like lazy mildly, uncomfortable you just an hour not at all. I love it like David was your idea what you're believe, so you don't lie with water. Stop bs what the water thing that they float down the river there's it's different, every state, none! I'm in let us stick with wyoming whereby you. Do a lot of water rights issues so why has no one ever since speak on behalf speak on behalf of like, first of all, and not internal second volume, as nefa can give you a let me ask you some yes or no questions.

Are you or are you not an expert in water rights? I must say no Bullshit we disagree with me. You know I actually I actually practiced water laugh relegate bus out, they'll shrivel deals you all tangled up in that gordon stopping all waters is now. Are the iron rights? That's different! So like wars, the? U s and things like tat, I can talk about waters. The state was the you ass. I could talk about the origins and about talking about water rights. You're, typically talk about an individual's right to pull waters that what I meant it floated down the river No, I won't challenged why has no landowner said those People coming down my river are in my airspace. Please give them a ticket. Why? have they not done. I, when I think's happened, is I think we carved out an exception. The way we did for that, the fda did for four navigable airspace and we did the same.

thing for navigable water water? So we ve if effective, created an ex ante navigable waters. They belonged wars, the? U s, with the reason that we ve made. That hope is the fact that they are the waters. Could you really say well We are calling them navigable waters, but we're gonna tell you can never but myself. I am now saying that that little lens of water negates the little lens of water, true you're in the waters airspace. That's exactly right! That's that's that there is but little right could you say you're too expert, and could you say there that there or she shows no, he was being coy. He don't know a thing. A thing is Dave honestly, like I'll say this David is better stuff than anybody. I know on earth there's some of these issues that, like you, haven't even touched on yet that I'm home, like I'm sitting here with a kind of a grin waiting for the chance to get you to talk about a different legal issue in my own. That dave is really they good out but like day the man on the staff, and so I could. I can tell you

I think that what I know, one half of what I know comes from sitting in a car. They are talking about suppressors. While he tells me about trespassing the dude at the same time, basic, probably just talking right over each other, so go on so so the the last piece I was going to say is ok, so water we created this option for navigable. Eighty, four, like dependence, navigable waterway right- that creates an acceptable done it for airspace, there's a quiet, still question about how far that airspace comes down and either some supreme court case law from the nineteen forties that that kind of suggests that, as in its specific to airplanes right-

but as long as you Don'T- and I mentioned it earlier as long as you don't disrupt the enjoyment of that private land, meaning you're, not harassing livestock or your cousin, major problems to the landowner that in if you're, in that airspace, you're not violating that property right now that hasn't been fully played out. This was very specific to airplanes, it wasn't to foot traffic and it was seventy five years ago, but I do have a question that I think- and I don't have an answer to this, but like we ve carved out at a space for aeroplanes, for navigable water or for air, we ve carved out a space for navigable water. We haven't talked about foot traffic is, means of navigable, eighty of public of public trust, resource What we're talking about here is a public trust me of airspace, to move commerce and so forth, the public trust resource of water to move on, and we have a public trust, resource of land

air, water and land, and we haven't decided that land peace yet, but it gets back to the sort of come back to that interpret a statute with absurd results and I've if, if I were making an argument and I'm not providing written, providing legal advisers just I'm a conversation about what if's right or but I just another day but I'd- consider making that case that it's another form of navigable ability of a public resource right public trust resource. I, our bueller's, now want to put out to put some superlatives on your shirt This is not to degrade or de mean any of the word. on by conservation pro access. Organizations. Do a lot of great land acquisitions, like in a minute, devising and tell us about this. Eight thousand acre property in utah, which super cool rocky mount.

With foundations set aside, I dunno what the hell they are now I mean absurd millions numbers of acres that the rocky mountain out from Hell shall with yeah. has like raise money to buy in the open to public access docs on It is normal amounts of acreage. They ve bought in hand over to public access like all s great, but. In terms of a single act. There would increase public access, there's nothing that would come close next, ten generations of humans. Now They would come close. a broad, scale clarification of the ownership of that airspace in terms of foot traffic. You be opening up literally hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of acres, millions, literally millions of acres. You sat to find the right path.

and there I case you around the right opportunity, the right attorney, right person. It's interesting does another issue a lot like this and allowing gone. Oh, my homing. You can't hot wilderness areas If you are not present without a guide The last say. No. That, though, covered that one not even exported with Dave, you have not only pike ass. I know I know, but you I did I summed up a thing you explain to me once were asking you which are not recently and I I mentioned. I think I mentioned you by name. I mentioned something you explain to me or I I was always going like certain rules like why. War. The arguments for and against an you had explained to me that Becomes a legislative action They dont memorialize. All of the wise the more or less the outcome, but no one like puts down like here's the pros that someone so raise new. So when you go back

It has been in existence for a long time. You don't have an accurate record of who argued what point and what were they really getting at you, do know what they came up with. Explaining that the imo to mutilate that's right, because, as you Why? What was the argument for you like? I can't go to with the arguments but yeah yeah. We did talk about that at some point. If you want, we can talk about what I think illegal vulnerabilities to that law are, I know, you think it's vulnerable I've. I've got a couple now. Ah, I think I've talked to before about at least one, but I I know of I've got a couple of bigger vulnerabilities to that law. Explain, law one? He explained long and one explained the vulnerable done with the corner crossing? Are you if you are in in australia, huge superlative on it yeah the air part, is they're. They're. Part of that. I think that that the that that sporting community, the access community needs to be prepared for is a need to be prepared for the fact that and fences

We are often laid down in terms of people. I bawling things there lay down in terms convenience you might. if you have like a finger ridge common off a ridge hundred and thirty years ago, some guy might around his fences down the finger rich because it was an approximate. It was approximately right, It was a hell of a lot easier than running it down some rocky draw where you couldn't put a post in. Ah, if this became a thing we need to be prepared for, like I said, overcoming a lot of issues around like marking, surveying. It doesn't mean that you just jump up to any two fences come together. Those fences could, literally those fences, could be a hundred feet off So it's not just a matter of you hop advances everywhere. It would Some, like educated, doing to avoid conflict. Does my last point out- and you made that,

we think of something that would create. I can create a little hyperbole at some. He if you do see, you said, we'd go out there and survey every corner and we need your logically right. One consequence of that is when you didn't, when you just described what you described of all of these fences running in different places, you may just open it can of worms on adverse possession claims and just pit people like just law fighting over all went off a guy. Like you know what your neighbour is grazing I have actually feel like you start doing that and find out where these corners actually are just an open worms everywhere around a grass palm about the deuce, build the fences, colic fence, building or something these two guys like that. Come together every year and rebuild the stone fence between their properties peevish ago, read reviews that poem

it's an alliance is like old stone. He, like the basic there like friendly thing and as again the poem it's like he puts it like these old own savages still out there. You know wielding their stone weapons, but yeah offence, build aways, be a lot of people who got over it hundred years ago, and then reinvigorate the dispute that the un, Let the very last thing I'd I'd says: least in wyoming, and I think Montana tried this two years ago, legislator actually tried to introduce a bill to and legalised formally legalise continent. nineteen in montana was twenty twenty eleven wyoming and both failed. Both efforts failed. There was a reverse, separate effort in wyoming at one point to to formally ban it to make it google that also failed. So I raise everybody's like we don't politically. Nobody wants to tell

gets evacuate. Man we do know is that came back up now in this state. I bet you could tippit the directive was that result in lichen, and this allows us later, not less lotos is wasn't a ballot and should not every state has access to that right and even then it could be very problematic to passing through ballot initiative. You could tippit through public education, because you have a lot of people who are, you have lots lot of people who are deeply and. financially and otherwise that they want that land for themselves. And I can imagine something like that came up- you'd have a lot of people who were felt like acutely, very personally threatened, in a lot of other people who were sort of vaguely supportive You gonna have people who are really gonna want to fight, because they might be back sickly running. You know out

businesses on what would be public land, because no one can get to it. Them, because a LISA adjoining parcel usb can to fight tooth and nail The block that you're going to have a lot of hunters who are the sort like article fucking corner, but I could get all involved yeah and that's a hard thing to do to the ear talking about something that is gonna inherently put community against the landowner. Can you them were the honey community in most of the country? really depends on. The landowner community for lacks us, an opportunity, and even in the west, we have a lot of public land still some of places can be improved, and to and depend on those relationships and you're you're talking about something that is well, the best placed them in the best place, well, yeah, yeah, right and so you're. It goes to that year. I think there's political reluctance to do that, because you, your crew, eating attention with those that you want to be natural allies, you want them

Certainly the hunting can you to be on the same page with conservation and and landowners to be so. In hunting and allow access, not gender, and you could be putting this creating a situation, I'm nothing! Don't do it, I'm just saying there's all de mer. I would that's why it's why people are afraid, I think afraid fraid not the right rightward, but maybe it is its there's. A discomfort Taking on that issue at a legislative level. Oh, I felt the actual incredible talking about it. In a reason I feel uncomfortable talking about it, had I have like myself up to talk about the reason I feel unkind talking about it is. I have cordial very special relationships with a lot of land owners who would look at that and probably feel and it's all Mcmahon, I don't wanna. Like I mean I'd, do the good dude he lets us as place. I don't want to piss them off by talking about it, but I also feel like in terms of If I have like an obligation to, I have an obligation to my audience. It would be to explain

them things that are that man both of them a lot in I think I have an obligation to talk about it, but it's thorny shit. Actually is- and I dont know that it directly relate to this, but I noticed on annex which We use a lot of her wisconsin and I use in michigan for hunting. Why is it that the annex map, which I assume is very get up to a meter or less shows that, where the property lines, were they are no longer. Could I noticed that some of our property has expanded one of our neighbours who used have thought he had. Ten acres now has like seven point. Forty Yes, oh this is of so These every light, pre pilot, the political like, I actually work, doing, mapping work for you ass, you- and I, He asked for a long time and that's like my backing. It looked. Reality is because onyx isn't perfect

So when you look at onyx, what you're looking at is an x goes out when they get that mapping information, they're, collecting that mapping information from a host of different entities, people counties federal agencies and will end on did the magical was their putting it all in one database so that you can pull it off from one database, but you, can't this. The other probably can assume that databases right, because it isn't it's not a reliable, isn't that was really. Ireland is not reliable down at the time for putting my left foot public in my right foot is now I've hobo into our people. To think that the issue is, it has to do with the accuracy level of the mapping and that's the other problem with this is because even your phone Unless you have a like a base station in a pickup truck, that's kicking out sub, you know inch, level accuracy, your phones, gonna, be off, a couple of meters, the guy who went out and did the map may have been off by a couple meter? So it's not just the map right, I mean it's. The map

be totally accurate. That man could be a hundred print like make this assumption. That could be a hundred percent accurate, but the sound aren't yeah, you're satellites telling you where are on that map might be within a meter for you, look within the six inches To be, every map is an abstraction of reality. Right, though, the earth is a circle with hills and everything else like that on it and you're getting a different. We call it a projection of that every time. Your your looking at a map, you're looking at a fall, representation of what a really exists in reality. That's why this gets the like. All these infinite, like you just can't be one hundred percent If that's, why you got a really was If you can just be like, oh yeah, I've got this handheld unit now, so I must be fine, so you tell the game warden, I'm ok to be here. I've got my gps unit. You can't do that. because so, however, a wider isn't thou accurate. Are those? U s hands. So that's the next week.

It the pins, the survey? So how do we know we're actually corner hop? Those are pretty they're, pretty good. Everything is going to div. Everything has a d, any land ownership claim is going to default to something like survey and you put a corner pin there has to be like a baseline, understand and stop arguing. When you ask your legal descriptions are based on a professional survey like the legal descriptions that you put in the contract when you sell a piece of property based on the surveys that are done out in the pin that stuck in the ground and the projection that that pin was begun, rely on in there, and so it's all part of the legal diet. The problem is like when you get it on your phone you're, not often working in the same project unit it's a certain, an assumption. We ought to realise in this world, where we think everything is now executives at your fingertips. It's it's not. as hot and dry sheet. That answer, because that's always puzzled me and I didn't know what to tell the neighbor, I said: well, you just lost it. You know, I don't want my servants thing We really are in place

answer I know, he's got a nausea to fences with his boundary with his neighbor there's like sex. Depart for long ass ways, and I you're said to what's what it's ok with you and your neighbor having the double fence. This is a trivial question. Why think they got a dog fence. It was because of the easement or because they could drive cow mortar more easily. calls brain cows through the fence now and then. It's six feet of space know I didn't go over there and measure, but I'll say why do you guys have like? Did you like each put your own like what what's up with that? And he goes oh Noes issue with that important whatever and I had. I traditionally ran my one of the other like I ran my balls and they had something going on over there and blah blah blah and they just put a buffer narrative reduce some of the world's attention. So those are tensions between the hurts.

as a good neighbors right there. Need. I break down this there's restart Sad story where people are in trouble now will start move to a happy access story, access, hey! You know what hunters access is the number one. The number one thing and petty impeding people from participate in hunting or the shooting sport is access, even shoot sports, nor to shoot yes Nowhere to shoot you don't have access to either the expertise you to have someone to teach you to do it right. That's a huge impediment. You don't have access community to be involved in that leads people to leave it, though you may need to live in a community like you're you're, the guy outside you. Nobody likes you anymore axis, just ranges. Access to ammunition. Access to you know all that stuff, In you, talk of a good access story seemed

we worked with to do the right thing. Light on fish? He also casey Snyder last you did a a bill to make it illegal debate became animals on public, lance awesome barely yet be crushed it and he had. lots of support from a variety of on what lands public land so tal until last year it was legally you could take a box of apples. You could throw it on the ground in the middle, the sage brushing Utah, you can set it. He'll camera over at the talked yourself on you could sit there and wait for me wants to show up at that bait site and then go on. should the animal disease a mule dear or a trophy Elk, and at that, time. You could also sell that location, information and so a tree. In all cases, to his credit and took on a lot of you, know a lot of flak and interests all he must have no did he is he is. He's, the man is a real chapping. Those issues where he also took on in utah this eight thousand acres just use of stately.

the big issue are they public lands aren't day in a variety of states in utah. They face a lot of time is there and they had a eight thousand acres and cinnamon creek drainage. What was called it's one of the few real public accessible areas in northern you taught in casey's district. I was going up fairly sale and cody in case he was able to put together a tick work with a bunch of other people, including department of natural resources there in utah. You win that waste, so that eight thousand acres now will be a wild life judgment unity where people can that, where the public, what you say at least how long's lease I dont know the answer, Question I'd be speculating it'll, you know, so I am not going to butter they're still working on the issues. Its suffer people who live in

taught her interested in these issues. They need your support at the legislative level, and so this is a pitches. A lobbyist admitted bake a lot to people, which is if these are issues you care about, respectfully call your legislators and talk with them respectfully about the issues because you know nothing poisons your issues more than calling and yelling at somebody and nothing helps them better than hearing that you actually care, and your know that they're a real person and for in this case that you know as cases putting together the stuff, you know carry this through the legislature in the spring. Call your legislators and tell him to support now that effort support those bill. here's your kicked, insignificant, significant meteor foundation, sportsmen provision, wildlife, rocky mountain out foundation, nature conservancy

state of utah, an. U s and wildlife service servers. Critical self you live in utah, that's graduations, yeah new spot on earth. carriers, one for you never out of you, want to answer this as your job or answered. Is you. we'll see what it is first and then, we'll later on which one it was after I get in trouble for don't don't go, it's already out so next week, I'll be like, oh by the way, those ni, fi yeah. In fact it wasn't even defiant. It was some other guy. Some guy started over like him. What was your beard in the firearms industry And work on policy and also ill public opinion, what was your take on the Alec baldwin movie set during my mean, it was stretched.

every imaginable. What a terrible tragedy direct I mean ass. The most the thing to say is what a terrible tragedy, of us. I think sitting around the table certainly know all the data I am sure that it's an ongoing, legal issue with lots of stuff going on there, and I think that everybody ought to be able to just step back from that and say like what a sad thing that changed a bunch of people's lives permanently, and I think the best, and you can possibly say about it- is there are rules of firearms safety. And if everybody obeys those rules, this doesn't happen and That's just reality in and you can just take that to the bank. You know theirs, level of education. There are not seeing these minos, everybody was that was there, was was not educated. I have no idea, but what's the first rule, firearm safety, every gun is always loaded. You

ever point a firearm at anything, you're not willing to destroy. You, keep your finger off the trigger. You don't shoot unless you're sure of what your shooting hatton what's beyond it, and so I think Rather in authors, I can't say anything about that situation because I dont know the particulars, but I can say for everyone listening for all those in view no matter what we're doing with guns obey the safety rules, and this has been thing- a big thing nssf but if I could brag about us just for second, like safety issues are things were huge on project I'll safe operation, secure store own it secure it respect those are all these are all initiatives that we have already put big time. Work and money into trying to educate people on firearm, safety, on safe storage and all these things, because really, to be able to play in this firearm space safely and that's we ve demonstrated since the nineteen fifth he's for whatever you said like you can see it in the rates of how we ve gotten better at this, and we can continue to do that if we're all willing to just

have a discussion about it. An educational russian about it. It's absent the political undertones and so in all its again super sad and It's ought to be an example to all of us to take a look at what are everyday practice. Orangist be better. I owe was surprised that That in those scenes, you're using functioning firearms and even that the same firearm might be used like for real and then later that day used as a prop. I you know I can't, and there are guys who are experts in the industry who have talked about this. didn't on articles about always a naughty sl surprised yeah, and it is one of those things again like you know, I'm not exactly sure other than hearsay like exactly what happened on that set. But I do know the industry honest, he has best practices that

mirror what we're talking about with does with the rules of firearms safety, they obeyed those rules in the industry they obeyed, practices when you go to the right sets with the right people, and so I dont think it would be fair in a lot. well, then we go up with any degree. They need to use cartoon guns and stuff like that now, and I just think you know I'm not expert to say- what everybody should or should not do, but I can certainly say that you know that the reason that they have really good armors, that they have a lot these movies, like you know, dudes, who are like former guys from enough. the highest and military or they're doing on site, making sure that We are following these rules yeah, and so I just think it like all of us just again, I'm not going to criticize you know what happened there, but I'm going to say like it's for me, I have to think about. Ok, how do I work with the fire?

they are in my safe around my kids round, my friends around my job on the things that I'm doing and make sure that I'm doing the best practices that a camel I'm doing there is what of turmoil on that movie set aside from all the dead like there are walk offs and printed in the days before, like corners are being cut everywhere. So it was just a horrible combination of things that came together in that one moment, but steve that what you said how guns are used for you're, shooting real bullets with that things and powder and actual projectiles than roger movie said to be loaded with blanks how there was alive round with a casing at a bullet and powder in there. I That's that's how I don't understand how that happened at all. It seems only they they use blanks with with you know, a casing and powder that, but no projectile, I visas on in movies, and before will reading about that, there's like. rolling tray, the

m, o plus unidentified ammo, loose ammo and fanny pack in the just like. no I'm some people know now because their investigating it like. I don't want to come in and combat like those that nothing but the impression. One gets from reading about it from a law enforcement prospect. there were plenty of reasons to tourists, come in and say no comment, what But does seem to be kind of the four from the the people that I saw speak about it were like it's very hard to hang on what exists what's going on here and yet with what was being used. Powers being managed lot of questions, but I. two things one. I felt that. I saw commenter anti ways it was received. I think that

maybe we're at a safe distance. Now I was alarmed by the way in which the victim, somewhat like a mother and husband, died, who had nothing to do with the ship Right they talk about the cinema tiger, yet the director, guyana, shoulder heed. He survived, though yeah, but I'm just eighteen. He, a mother like young children, was. so that to me in a way when, when everyone, when it became so politicized, I looked at, and I kept thinking like man, this There is not enough spit. The way was being utilised and weapon ized. I fell. People were taken the time to think. Like here's, a person like at work for a paycheck who has young children just died and I dont what her opinions are about this, but that needs be paid attention to

the other thing is, I found on the other side of stuff. Is it People have a lot of people who were struggling with Y all this this from from the guy rights community. Why all this kind of veto- veal- is toward. Ah alex Baldwin or towards the industry. It be look like I reckon legged somewhere that demonstrated hypocrisy. Where were you have someone who questions Why is it really need these guns? Aways is like unless they're making a movie, then it's cool. Right, but the you'd have one for something else is ridiculous already built on those things barney these things, but all, but now I'm a movie maker. Its gets fine for a story. Tat That's good for us hampton story about. We got any building effect. We only get some land around when the hell. They are the better. Now you none of them, and so it was I think that's where a lot of that, just that

Frustration came from a sort of their zack there's calla glaring hypocrisy, which in people alike there there could have been an easier target than alec baldoni there like couldn't, have been like a more say it like about belsize. It was just an insane. Yeah setting setting. You know that specific its situation aside, like a teacher kids fire safety. No, don't don't hide from now take the opportunity Not just- and you should be, you know if you ve got young kids in home, you don't get a safe and if but also teach them, firearm safety now talk about the things and have a real discussion, because not a lot of people the world today want to do that. You know these of conservatives taboo when I could talk about guns in order to deal with that and like the more we can do to calves, conversations that are intelligent about farms and fire safety. They were just will

every day. We do that. We live in a better country. I just finished a book like it's done done now about kids like it's called called outdoor kids inside world shows about raising outdoor kids and in the hunting section a talk about how you communicate about guns of kids and one of the things that, I've just blew DR do is. We have never taken the attitude that these are that the guns are like these magical things right. There are not capable of magical acts, It's like it's a thing. You can understand very well and we're going to talk about how they function, how you handle them safe, we're not going to create like they're, not fetishized they're, not attributed with magical powers look at them wrong. Something will happen like a functional, practical understood

ending of what it is, what safe, what's not safe, how it would be that you would hurt someone with one and talk about new, very realist. Since my eight over eight year old and eleven year old, both little boys and both you know- have been to the range so many times. I can't even count- and there have been you know my eleven year old now is gone on his first hunts, and you know that, like those kids like they, they know, and so it makes it much easier because they got that familiarity and they ve seen what a firearm can do, and so this you know they know. when they go to somebody's house like it's much easier, live those conversations they know others posed to walk away. They know what they buy. These things aren't toys why they call grownups. They know all those things, and I just think those are healthy conversations to have they shouldn't be. We should hide from him redo up, we're germany, so quick at her stuff night everything we can to bring up as quick hitters is, as

porn and warrants as much discussion. Is we ve already done anywhere, but just an interest time on Wednesday, some quick at her stuff about money used to the other they'll be contests. Who can do it? Quick ass, it neophyte? What why Why is there no ammo and if I know there is a giant, is it a vast conspiracy? Twelve million people bought firearms for the first time since the beginning of two thousand and twenty that have never owned a gun before in their entire lives. They tend to train more than people. traditionally on guns and if those twelve million people each year, a box with a hundred pounds of ammunition. It that's a billion new rounds of ammunition in demand on the market in the last two years that didn't exist before The reason you can't find ammo is because america chain significantly in the last two years and the mud and the people that bought those guns were, If the eight percent increase in northeast forty percent in women, their republicans

Democrats and it's it's changed and its take. The companies time to be able to tipp to ratchet up to match tit to match the demand? Does phenomenal unoriginal, quick? It ok But I have a question: that's not how many people by six five three hundred worthy, I got that at least get over around the table, because here's theirs was balanced, one Let me try that you tell me where I'm right and wrong this isn't. Can my time that you don't have ammunition, manufacture, need the tool up and they re on runs of certain loads and calipers calipers and there. Like huge demand and huge deficits in certain things and so they're running those things that have the greatest need for greatest motto: retailers people are clamouring for it and it makes you don't have the luxury of stopping to tool up for what might be regarded as more esoteric roundhouse at very good

If you want to know what america guns, americans own look at the shelf and they I'm on my back on the shelf. That's what guns miracle is not what they don't own. You want to look like wise, nor by lies largely working to fund. We, when nobody has a thirty six aim or ireland. Many I've seen one of those on the shelves in like tell you at the most market is to position one on friday. You guys grainy ammo, to use with it. We were worried about nineteen o three years on from jan, but he's got some. Thank you. Okay, there's one dave like a second one, for neither why have another quick, hitter, ammo, quick everything neuron is too. to be faster, while ok, open up her eyes! There a worry, the if I do all the steps to ramp up production that the market will drop out and they'll be left like with this new facility. That's half finished. I can't answer that question. Okay, I think yes, endo, okay,

there there they are ratcheting it up, but the like is for real enough or we'd go and build a new plant yeah, but you know, but they can t that they are building the new plants. Oda dave big infrastructure bill everybody fighting about it, get mad at each other. They won't vote it if they can't vote for this. They won't vote of the camp vote for that. But in the end, the infrastructure bill- I gather people in the conservation world had some cause fur. There was yasmine excitement about the infrastructure bill. The wildlife enthusiasts did why? Ah well this quick hitter right, so not to say that these aren't rich issues, but just in the interest of time yeah. So their biggest thing. So this past may be clear that the structure bill was by partisan and it passed in november sometime in november. So it's it's done

it's happening, one of the biggest things in there is it created a grant program? Three, fifty million dollar federal grant program for wildlife crossings so competitive grant program around the country states can use to you know so many states have been identifying places that get us three crossings well, so a crossing, so crossings can be underpasses overpasses and I believe overpasses are in that twelve to thirteen million dollar range a piece roughly now, so it can actually gets you quite a lot. Some overpasses cost a lot more there's one that we are working on it patiently in california, in LOS Angeles area, for mount lions. Actually, because there's this, lion. Population, galleons favourite subject, rather get the smack by vehicles there. So fundraising for that right now. But but this will create resources for projects all

for the country. There is also a lot of of money available for forced restoration projects or think about cheek grass and forest grassland sagebrush right. So cheap grass mitigation worst young fire mitigation and things like that, a lot of money for that there are things like force legacy, road programme funded so money now to maintain force roads in some of the two inventoried roads that are out there, there's also money to decommission roads and restore that have tat has also money for culverts and you don't think you think o coverts. What does that dual treating fish habitat and in helping movement, there's millions of dollars and therefore covert removal and replacement to allow, in its particular targeting fish movement to four

actually for threatened and endangered species of fish species that have had their or their movement cut off, but also for other species of fish as well game species that we might like to catch that that that programs? Therefore so there's there's just there's all sorts of stuff. That's as quick as I can be without going into lots of details, but there there are hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in an infrastructure package that go back directly to projects on the ground that will benefit wildlife, habitat and opportunities for hunters anglers. Yeah, there's I'm here. I sit there make blanket statements by how terrible lobbyists are keep in mind that when they debating that bill wildlife people were in the room saying I understand you need to cut a bunch of stuff out, but here's why you can't cut out the fishing while black stuff don't touch deficient while buy stuff. This is why it's important, if not They ve nor was put in a bargain, their ear there to act. It don't act it in favor of whoever was put a bargain

You're about some other aspects they cared about, and it was a lot of and in a lot of yours right I mean it was. It was the entire, not just the efficient community, but the broader conservation community. Everybody rallied around this idea, especially around wildlife crossings, but a lot of these other pieces to you know it was an economic thing for wildlife crossings they will. It was costing. I think the last report us out vehicle collisions with wildlife. I forecasting the economy, something like six billion dollars a year so an economic standpoint to three hundred and fifty million dollar investment in addressing six billion dollar annual problem makes good business sure it. Also when you look at the sheer numbers of animal vehicle collisions the animals lost. Yet you think about that from an opportunity standpoint, as one hundred we can't help but think well, you know that ford taurus smash that dear and then it goes some opportunity for somebody right to the food on the table while that kind of stuff, so really really some good stuff in that bill. So whether you very unhappy

like any legislate it has a lotta things in it: they're going to be things that make people angry and things that make people happy, but at the end of the day the beauty of the Bi partisanship is like. Like I, you know, I don't one hundred percent like this bill, but I I like eighty percent of it so I'll support it yeah ill. Then a lot of people get a lot of things out of it. Niva. What will twenty twenty one pittman robertson finding was that going to come in at and like how long does that money take to hit the ground? It's going to be a lot this last year that the the money that we're getting at the end of this year is going to be over a billion dollars just from firearms and ammunition is the first time that doesn't the dingle johnson stuff it does include anything but the farms portion over one billion dollars from twenty twenty one from yes and the end and again though you no longer biannual yes, this from this, if it was all measured, the shells were fully stocked condition

be tabling the largest contributor to pitman. Rogerson is federal. All we are or how they met the federal federal premium embryos are. They know that the feds not officer there is huge in its, but yet sir federal ammunition for sure yeah, it's it's! over a billion dollars, that the big challenge is gonna be, and you know, for whitefish wildlife agencies is going to making sure that they can meet the match. Because people always forget about this, so that money that comes in a billion dollars. Eighty percent of that is from non hunters. It's from people who are buying who are sport, shooters and people who are buying a defence. Handgun, just like they did in the eighteen fifties, and so was true a stable triangle shaped boy that kicked in any eighty percent to eighty percent of the market are those folks and so did that so they, like. That's an interesting point. We talk about before were hunters almost like two over recognise there pr contributions. Get there

down there like where that money is coming from come from shooter yet but the cabin hunters are the match because you have to match that money so hunters also buy tags so are you and I make up a smaller portion, may be as hunters we may make up, you may make up a small portion estate matching portion, yes, because you've got to bring for that billion dollars. If we want to see that billion dollars on the ground, conservation states have to pony up a billion dollars, they have to come you have to get somebody else. You know all of us. This table have to get one of our and to a tag whether or not they fill it or not, because if we want that money to then be able to be used at federal money. You gotta, and there's some states that have done that. In other ways it doesn't have to be licences right. You can pass in Missouri, has a one percent sales there is a tax that they put towards conservation recreation issues. So there are others to do it, but states to be really inventive mainly to get on the ball, because we don't see

it hasn't, slowed down data. Let you pick pick and choose her. Do you want to do a quick it on restoring america's wildlife act, which one is more titillating to that, revisiting legal issues around wolves and bears I do a two for one mana, two for two for the all good jar: yeah, I'd love to touch on both of them due to recovery, America's wildlife act. You talk about pitman robertson and I told at the very beginning, as I told you about the founding of of national, while a federation how one of the first things was addressing this need for more real, forces to help him these species that were struggling, whether refrain eighty years later. Is it similar right? We have Pippin robertson and we have licence.

Is, and we still have twelve thousand species of of what our species of special concern that if I had been identified by states through what are called state wildlife action plans where every ten years they're identifying the species. Their state. That are the most concern that need them most investment and in where you can do. Some conservation worked to help support the species does mean, the threatened or endangered or threatened with becoming endangered of a federally listed species? It just means the state views them as at risk and there needs to be an investment. Well, we don't have the money for sports sportsmen and women are you've, been paying pit and robertson fees for ah for eighty years right and and we don't have the resources that that this must include not only the species, we haven't fish, but everything else right so enter recovering acres wildlife act, which the idea was to

men. The pitman robertson act, create this new fund that would be used to help states implement those state wildlife action plans to help conserve the game species and then so that would free up a bunch of money for honey. Angler dollars to put the to take out of that pot, potentially that right now we're paying to manage all species through our hundred tags, and maybe now that'll come back in and be able to dump more into meal dear and prom horn conservation, moose conservation, and then we have this new pot of money that could be used for everything else, and so right now like in the senate. It's been, it was, those introduced earlier this year in the senate has thirty two co sponsors right now. As we talk sixteen republicans, fifteen democrats in an independent you use. One of those cases where windfalls bird from tiara cp has explained to us during like highly partisan. Nothing can get done.

times, sometimes real common sense conservation work gets taken care of, is it lets you have? It gives them a chance to have a win? and this is a you're. The biggest hang up on this, I think for the longest time on getting his pass was. How are we going to pay for it and at- and I think, there's, if identified in a way to pay for it which which comes out of federal revenues generated from violations of environmental and natural resource laws and regulations. So it's bait programmes administered by the E environmental protection agency day levy fines for four Violations, environmental violations goes into this big pot, and now and we can take part of that. That's not already going to the general treasury to funds. You know schools highways whatever and we're. Gonna say you not. Maybe what should be used for a big created, the problem by violating the law treating these cleanups that we needed the maybe, maybe heavens

that money diverted going back into wildlife conservation isn't a bad way to to do this, so that's sort of the the pay for and- and it seems to have pretty broad support. I mean you have a real, politically diverse senators that have signed onto this and and, like I said, it's got momentum, it's got equal number, you know the one independent, typically caucuses with a with Democrats, so you really have sixteen and sixteen you have this. This really is as bipartisan as you can get, and so the question is: is it? Is it can and and hopefully like you said- maybe one of these commonsense things that just lines up and happens in the and it's one of the things that we we've been working on as an organization for years and and and a lot of other organizations, you know I know Nephi's with national shooting sports foundation has been engaged.

This too, and the like that this is something that the entire ah conservation community, from the sporting groups to trade associations to broader conservation organizations that, like their thrall rallying around this, It's in it it'll be a game changer, an infusion of something at one point: four billion dollars a year into into the states to manage these species. That right now are just woefully underfunded, got yup there is an old stairs and wolves. So how do we want tat is so that this is a lot going on around that are now read the decade that could just open up rabbit holes. You know you ve got so you got the state why minks petitioned now to de list grizzly bears and in the greater yellowstone area again Well, is it yeah? Well, I think that's the first time they ve actually formerly petition every other time. It was the fish and wildlife service that initiated a rule making process and formally proposed delisting,

in this. It is in the first on the. Why happen that the state of why arming has actually taken the initiative to petition the fish and why service others to ways of their money and resisting deficient while their service to do something that the fish smaller service, or to try to do twice the toy withheld differences that make the petition to do. There are to try to do it I night I agree right, but perhaps the Maybe the state was thinking we don't know This administration is going to try again oda and only two ways under the act to test the process are either on the initiative of the fishing while I've service or somebody scimitar. A petition that requires the sufficient wireless service to act, and so, if they suspected that the efficient wireless service wasn't going to be interested in doing it or what might delay might take a long time, maybe the state said alright. Well we're going to do it and force them to do something, and the other thing that could

you know, there's a legal calculus to it right. So in the past, when the fish and wildlife service does it, it means that any lawsuit arising out of that is typically filed in washington, d c or in monty It goes it at court mozilla which all right so so here the state of our submits the petition. If their depict the petition, declined. Then maybe they initially, the lawsuit in wyoming, ah federal district the friendlier judge and who right because the judge them Azul always like they always final. it is a right that seems to happen. Strange seems to happen so that's the best sort of way Are with grizzly bears just as the also to see that big list of deal that letter that went to dabble and it was signed by what it was Bernie Sanders is on there. I dunno sixteen. Seventeen senators signed a letter calling for like instant ryan, think of the grave of the wolf yeah yeah. I saw that that's happened before I said that

someone who can analyze stuff destinies, I'm sure they're currying favour with the animal. community. You donated some I need to them when they're doing a like a a pointless thing that will lead nowhere, so they can be like see. I tried tried yeah but before I did their other times were, nor members of congress have done that of course burn on their man like being from like vermont, and everything really seems like No, He wasn't criticized: bernie kernersville has to get Bernie sanders out of the show, and I'm like tell me why and we'll do it. Maybe now she's got her in this letter. That's funny yeah, so there's a ton going on with wolves, though right in that sort of weird one, two and weird web to unravel about other different things going on with wolves. You have so you have,

all the different state laws that are giving lot drawing a lot of attention in montana, idaho, on we'll funding, they're gonna kill. Ninety resent yeah right that in it No, I dont it's not in and come back to it. Neither to now we ve already we ve covered it, for I had a hard and we ve covered quite heavily the discrepancy between what the rules are in one- would some them up in a headline: usa today right you ve, been through all that outward covered air. What you do have is like this now a really interesting situation, where wolves in wyoming montana ho eastern organ eastern washington. Panhandle of you talk like that. Whole population was delisted prior to that

I administration doing a nationwide delisting rule that do you effectively delisted everything else nationwide, except for those that were already delisted and mexican wolves and red wolves, but delisted everything else. I think that what that did, as it created a little bit of an opening here, and so now you have this petition to realist, grey wolves in the western united states, only instead of calling them a like right now, they were delisted as a distinct population segment in those that area geographic area I described since then you ve had movement of those wolves, those walser genetically you can find genetic, connectivity between those walls and wolves in western organ. Why was this guy killed on I five after he walked cross golden gate, bridge right in california, near yosemite, right, like fifteen miles north of yosemite national park, something like that! Don't like these

If you're having this genetic interchange, I might be mixing up two wolves. There is a famous wolf running around california's got hit on the side of the road yeah, that's the one I'm talking about So, but what you have now is at the time wolves are reintroduced, idaho and wyoming central idaho unwelcoming like there was no genetic connectivity between any other workers just want wolves other places. Now those walls have dispersed. You had some other wolves dispersed from canada and you have these more genetically. connected population, and so now this petition to two real The saying you can't draw this: does Population segment, the same way it can't be wyoming, idaho, montana, eastern oregon, eastern washington, northern utah. It can't be that any more it has to be the west. And by the way, when you draw that big, it hasn't recovered west wide, and so Delisting them nationwide actually created this opening to make up a push? to re list, wolves in tire, western united states,

if they can use your success against you right right and then, and so what you're left with is okay, so you have a petition out there and the service has to act on it and in within a year under the endangered species act, and so what's going to happen right, if what's happen, is whether they say yes, there warranted for listing or no they're, not warranted for listing, there's going to be a lawsuit filed so next year. This time, that's this, you can write, journal too. There is now wanting to be a lawsuit in the forum of whomever is choosing whoever is filing it in somewhere in the western united states may be montana to say they say that services not warranted that lawsuit will be filed in front of judge of their choosing and we're we're just we just hit the reset button on wolves. I my my opinion. Is we ve hit the reset button, wolves and we're looking at probably in another decade, long fight, no policy will see we'll see

That's my crystal ball, like you know, the ball and tin tin hat at the same time, new sort of what I'm thinkin we're lookin There was one of the primary we tackle this last week, Rosa about the ebb and flow of things and like the ways in which is hard to find a win, because I was disappointed when president removed the role this rule for targets in more of tolerance, national forest for road building, disappointed by that- and I was happy to hear that the Biden administration is pringles rules back in the. It's the same time, one of the things I worried a lot about the damn Biden administration are worried that just some crazy wolf bear stuff is gonna, come down

but then all we will say that was not really like the way that those rules work is not really susceptible to. For your administration changes. It plays out the more slow way. You feel that saved as they are not safe to say, or let me let you put it a more clear question does having like. If you have like as all the Senate Democrats, all the way out is it affords, Conclusion that they're gonna walk back state management of wolves and bears, or is it not? then do they could just put their hands on the dial? I I don't think has it so rarely happens? I dont think that congress jumps in here and does anything. Okay. I think you have your you'll see politicks. Statement bills that you've already seen you'll see political statement bill saying grizzly bear should be delisted. You know a grizzly bear delisting act and you'll see statement bills of a grizzly bear protection act that would that would be along the lines of a bald and golden eagle protection act.

I don't think under the current current construction of congress, even with with democrats controlling both bodies of congress that either have like that. That effort could go anywhere or, if republicans took control that that effort could go anywhere. The the place where- or I think you have to watch is what happens at the administration level so and that process play out quicker because you have timelines prescribed in the endangered species, act to respond to petitions, and then you have litigation, that's the part that gets protracted, but you have a petition. The administration by law is required to respond to that petition in they statutorily prescribed period of time and do in analysis best based on the best available science as to whether wolves should be listed or not, and they'll have to answer that question and that answer

half of the people really like in the other, half want and that's going to create a fight in it. That's just that's just how our system works and why we have these people who fights about predators and almost no other federally listed species. It's always the charismatic species, the pin, typically predators and so that's gonna, where I think we're I. I will tell you we should talk again in a few months, because, because I'm finishing up now it happened. Somebody write a book and am finishing a book chapter where it's called VON wolves. Now it's on grizzly bear it's it's an analysis of my contribution to it, it is is

How to use the act in a different way to empower states are encouraged states to be able to take on more of a leadership role in managing threatened endangered species of it and make my case study as grizzly bears, and I propose a solution for how you get grizzly bears back in state. Management, even if their listed, oh, okay, one last quicker fellers your mountain podcast oh, my god there do now next hour. This is what we're going to talk with doc, rivers. We were going to be able to hide all of that. No one was ever going to find it and there was going to be to our betterment better teaser, what better teaser than what we ve been doing. Yeah. No, that's that's pretty much so ni. Fine, I in another body of ours, microgravity you three years ago, one. just because we are leaving the governors office, we ve been listening to a bunch of different part gas and with in other there's one they're all stupid right now. There's a lot of there's a lot of great pot guess out there, but we actually did feel

There is one space that wasn't completely occupied where we we could step in and provide value, and that was really providing from from a boot on the ground like good guys in the tree This kind of approach of let's talk about the law, and policy around a lot of these conservation issues at a state level and federal level, and so we we. created this. We are tagline is everyday things happen that affect your land We are in wildlife and you should know about them and that's where we come in and and talk about all the patent policy nuances. So it's really kind of a walkout kind of nerdy podcast called your and I wonder why we keep doing it. and yet you are duration- is enough to be our first guest on that pakistan early years going you like, there's gonna twenty not an authority within a hundred forty plus now yeah. We ve we have as many upsatirs listeners yeah yeah,

for moving up those charts? The veil everywhere come on get a deal available everywhere with some it gives you chance, applaud you sign all wrong area press is that it has been superfine. It's giving us an opportunity before we left the governors office. We said like we want to stay in touch. Why keep doing stuff together, and so this has been in the scheme for us to sit down As you know, in office, once a week at night and like spent an hour to in about like we had a whole episode. You talk about corner crossing and kind of funny like episode, one eighteen. We spent an hour and like forty minutes talking about that specific issue of the wilderness rule, we talk you're breaking down pr breaking down lotus breaking down usa and in europe for different purposes and stuck what welcome and it's it's it's it's been super has been superfine as friends to be able to,

I'm sure you get it yeah like you, want to become the kind of person. When you drive down the road with your friends, you can be like no, that's not how it works. Listen to your show, what you should do and then you can tell people what happens now. Have this first. This goes to the supreme court. You like, If you want a nerdy podcast too, this is you understand, I may seem nerdy, I'm trying to me. I want you to understand the nuts and bolts of everything. I guess that's with eighty deep dive into the nuts and bolts of law and policy, rather than in the kind of person whose like will now they want home who who's there. gonna gives you like an understanding of what is the what it's been superfine and europe. Cool like it was funny you ve been here ten years like is again It's super. It's been super fun for us to have that friendship and keep that connection, and you know graciously you were like Dave said like our first besides we flew out to visit, you were like we think we're gonna do this podcast. Would you would you be our first gaston so

went sat down. I was, you know very kind of you, and it's and how many years ago was at three and three and a half. I think three and a half we started in here left in me was started in may of nights. I didn't even know not only on its been three over three years now so your mom, I guess avail anywhere particles are given away. That's right! Yes, part! but if we are regulating out there yeah. You should definitely subscribe to it, no matter what, because it's really good for you- as we know, monsieur as it does so, we do have no modernization, zero, zero. Addresses are dumb or why? No, I don't think it's. I think, it's great as a service to the american people. Actually, first for all you, lawyers listening out there, there are a number of episodes where, if you're a lawyer in wyoming, you can get a a celia continuing legal education. Credit for your law license exactly right and you could probably apply for those in other states as well. A former senator used to make his staff listen to our podcast, really yeah yeah yeah. We

we got different senate offices or renew their folks in the offices that that list upon gas, dare I say it's an insiders? Look you may you might, you may yes, it get. Yes do you wanna know are gonna put that by the way, our terrible marketers. Now, if we had a market, we would we would say so. We would call you now what stephen ramallah, dare I say, there s an insider park is, but we haven't pose having on earlier and of our social channels, and we don't even know amano autonomy under the passwords are forgot tourist It's up that. We check it. We and we respond to all emails and everything we get, but it's there every week, we kept busy, your mountain podcast, yeah Pritchett, Lasting next week, so there's no hands you people christmas holiday or because they're not you're, not at work, and all that you don't listen to your podcast. But next week is our christmas holiday extravaganza, extraordinary episode so christmas time, all heck.

If is unhappy, argue in trying to get the kids in the cargo, see grandma, listen, don't forget us. Were there our christmas gift to you. We have a christmas gift, you we're doing a double up so drop? Where did you pod gas was the christmas extraordinary, but then what we're gonna we're gonna throw down and have a monster trivia showdown. Ever that's right, I can't wait trivial showdown. Emphasis needs to episode to result in one week. Phil everytime? I guess balances, runnin trivia jessica run tribute in europe we have a special guess, metro Noah, for the christmas yeah and he might be a non trivia. I don't know but we're gonna debate, social media, so family argument ignored whole caboodle. I can't wait

the.