This is episode number one thousand and fifty one. former cia director John Brennan sometimes a change, your confidence. Certainly it makes you wonder whether not just with a decision that you made were wrong, but just in a hurry be able to make future decisions. Of course we have to take care of our country and our own people that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world. Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Louis how, as a former proactively turn lifestyle entrepreneurs in each week, we bring you and inspiring person or message to help. You discover how to unlock your inner greatness thanks for spent some time with me today. Now let class begin The LAO Tzu once said when you are content to be simply yourself and dont, compare compete Everyone will respect you and albert,

Stein said: whoever is careless with the truth. In small matters cannot be trusted with important matter. John Brennan, was the director of the cia from two thousand thirteen until twenty seventeen and yours, time. He was responsible for intelligence collection, analysis covert, action inter intelligence and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services from two thousand in two twenty thirteen john was assistant to the president for homeland security and counter Terrorism. I was, fascinated by everything. That job sharing. I didn't want this conversation. stop there is so much I want to learn and there was an honor. With John and here, is incredible stories and wisdom, and I can wait. To hear this in this area we discuss how to make sure you're not being followed or tracked by other agents the months leading up to bin laden's mission in them nerve racking. Ninety minutes for brennan did details

possible attacks after nine eleven that we're stopped by John and his team, which pay since John was inspired by the most while he was working with them, making mistakes, and being a leader how to navigate that. How to deal with the rest. possibility of making incredibly tough decisions, how you can If a person is lying to you or telling the truth, the three common principles that made the president's effective decision. there's an leaders and their qualities use. Develop right now, if you want to become the president of the united states and so more it was truly fast in conversation. Nature share with a friend that you think would be inspired. Louis house Calm slash! One zero five one organ: copy and paste this link wherever you listen to it on apple podcast, respond. If I or anything or else it make sure to

scribe oberon apple podcast and leave us a rating and review if you're, inspired by this mission, and you want to spread greatness to more people. Ok, in just a moment, the one and only John Brennan. Walk, back everyone to the school of greatness, I am very excited. We have new york times serving arthur John Brennan in the house. Thank you. So much for being here is greatly with him loose Andy, you have seen some of the craziest thing is in there. In the last forty years, working with the cia, almost four four decades, as our you're working well I work first for twenty five years, it's yea retired went off to the private sector to see what was like to earn a living outside for patients. It covers a beggar nobody. There were here for a little while

back in for the entire idiocy years, the four of which were at the cia. So twenty on use its yea and four plus years at the white house, Would you say is the craziest thing that you had to deal with, because it seems like three forty six years or something crazy that happens. What would you say was the biggest stress for you. There you needed a face and how if overcome well for his there's so many to choose from that. There are all my interactions with congress and the the hyper partisan environment there. I think, as I point out in the booker, and equal opportunity offender. So there are people on both sides, the aisle that have called for my resignation of firing over the years. Everyone and you're fired sort of life of the cia directorate and told his officer but obviously the bin laden red was very nerve. Racking anxiety, producing nail biting situation

dealing with the aftermath of nine eleven and trying to ensure that see, I was able to respond very quickly to prevent a recurrence those attacks and that aftermath was particularly jim, because we were also dealing with the washstand sniper, the anthrax attacks, just a number of things that I think just made the whole environment, that's more of concern and worry. and so many things that when I was overseas, just making sure what my children are going to be safe. When we lived in saudi arabia, when there were terrorist attacks in the region and and many things that I can't talk to you about. The author was a very intense yeah. What what? What is that you know? I think, when people think of a cia agent, they think of a spy in a movie or a film- that's romanticized. In that way, what does a day in the life of

cia agent, actually look like yell, and one of the things I think is important is on terminology, because a lot of people refer to you know: cia spies as being the cia employees, but, or lexicon. At least cia officers who engage in conducting spinners are called case officers, their operations officers. They are the who are trained in the trade craft of espionage and go out and try to recruit foreign nationals to spy against their countries. Really yes, in his those foreign nationals who are referred to as the spies or this the assets or the cia agents, that which is the confusing, because F b, I agents or actual you know, f b, I employees they are the americans who are in the f b. I who area they want forcing responsibility so there

if you know a a difference in view a difference in lexicon sure but against cia officers, and I started off in the cia very briefly as a case officer to go. You working, you're working with other people from another country to try to get information to use for country right. Ass would see a case officers. Do they do not necessarily work with the offices of other countries. In fact, frequently they go overseas, most isaac overseas it's not known that they are cia officers, they have other personas, they have. Maybe other official cover jessica employers the government agency department they may work at embassies, but they are not known to be cia officers because they have to operate surreptitiously in order to meet with foreign nationals who are going to commit basically treason against their country's crazy, why

how did you know? How do you convince someone of a country who has pride of a country? Maybe they don't need more? How do you convince them to sexually work for you against that country? Well, it's interesting because I think foreign nationals who decide to appreciate do so for a variety of reasons: motivations some live within countries that human rights and political. openness and freedom of speech are very much suppressed and they very strongly in what the united states of america stands for and so the want to try to help the united states, because they feel that The united states is a force of of good in the world. Some individuals are motivated by money or by, the potential for resettlement in the united states if they work for the cia over the course of time, and they provide us for information they want their children to go to american universities. They want to get the visas, the emigrant visa,

the common settled in the united states and also there are some people who just enjoy there, the whole romance of it or because they are in in this again clandestine activity? with the cia. So I think Most of them have a component of that first category, which is that there is something that they admire, respects like about the united states and want to try to stop it's? U s interests global interests. How many or would you them spies and for the other countries. Essentially. Yet the people, the foreign nationals who are recruited by cia or spot your assets, how many people that you were crude, are as something about the dogma? no, I didn't, as I said, I started out just very briefly in cia as a case officer, but then I realized that I didn't have. I think, the the skills, the interest to do that because of it

really is a very, very challenging profession because they have to adopt these fourth person is basically and try to cultivate relationships with foreign nationals and try to develop a poor, that's going to allow them to then recruit these individuals to work. On behalf of the. U s comment, and I the difficult to misrepresent. You know who I am, and so I moved over into the outlook ranks of cia Now I also did serve as the chief of station overseas and the middle east, nineteen nineties and I oversaw those espionage activities so My my admiration is very very strong for the women and men of CIA who, over the years, have gone to great lengths and taken great risks and have demonstrated great courage too,

recruit these foreign spies, who really give the states the type of insight that we need to understand the nature of the threats against us. You know that the information was accurate. when see overseeing these, you know agents who were finding assets from other countries. How could you trust that the information was, oh well, a lot of people who want to give information the united states, their information ranges from the most accurate and reliable to the most specious bogus ended up to cia officers to try to determined whether not someone has been fruitful and their different ways to do that, ways to validate verify information there or techniques, and tools that you used to try to find out, if someone's being honest, including the polygraph. So ass. A I will frequently minister paragraph exams to foreign nationals who were spying for us, that those who are those

If exams are not a dispositive at the truth, but they frequently will mean a river ones, attention azure, telling the truth so and also there's a track record over time again. You're able to verify somebody's access verify that the information or documents that they may be providing, or in fact true you. how to make sure that they are not I would call the dangle witches. a foreign intelligence service. You know pushes someone forward to it. Presume cia officer, to see whether or not there going to be recruited as a way to expose cia intelligence told his activities, really is a challenging, challenging profession and undertake for the cia to make sure that their human assets are going to be providing information that is accurate liable and important This is fascinating to me because you are essential

living a lie when you have to go out and bees the undercover be act like you're, someone you're, not how to someone like that, and not enough you notice or not, but how to some go out. The fact that ninety nine they come home at night and be in agri, be honesty, now be their word with their friends and family and not continue to wear the mask that their living most the day. There is a really good point and I do There is a certain amount of professional schizophrenia. Have there has to exist? Because, yes, you you have this under cover cia responsibility and identity, but you have to live be a different type of cover? Another government agency cover or commercial cover you also have to be very very careful in terms of who knows your actual organizational affiliation frederick cia, we would have every year would call a family day.

See I officers, women and men would bring in their families and children around cia headquarters and bring them up to that, sweet where my wife and I would greet them- and there was a couple of dozen ethic occasions- The course of four years of family days, where see cia employers were bringing their children into cia headquarters for the first time, and it was the day when the children learned that their parents actually was a cia employee low, as opposed to being an employee of another organisation or just a private, always ended look on these kids' faces when they came in just where they were gobsmacked, that, oh, my goodness, it's so cool. My mom is a cia officer or my dad is an it because you don't want a burden- your family members, bessie children, This knowledge that, if exposed really could

I a cia officers ability to carry out their activities, and so was he. I officers cannot these activities overseas. They are basically violating the laws of fine countries because carrying out activities. Just like you in united states differ. If a rough, chinese intelligence? I was doing it, the breaking the law and the same thing. That's your offices to oversee! So again, it's a very risky profession, but also a critically important profession. Wow happened, he assets, do you think you're in america that are doing work for other countries. More than a few there. The fact that in our united states, I think, is really the epicenter of democratic values, you know, and freedoms and liberties allows a lot of foreign governments and intelligence and security services.

To use the openness of american society, whether they send individuals here under government cover or as businessmen or as students or academics, and so you can. Imagine. The fbi in particular, has its hands fool: to try to understand this casino, the theft of intellectual property of technology now in old undiscovered environment of veal pharmaceutical, information were related to vaccines or whatever else, intelligence services from around the world are very Given the united states- and actually you know we have a world class f b. I organization that does a good job of trying to keep track of them, but, in addition, at the keep track of would be terrorists, and so it's a

the full plater responsibilities are: do you have inner peace when you're in this position, when you're running this organization within the government and how do people that are living these secret lives in the organization? Not stress our time not break down, not the emotional rex, not having society tax like? How do you guys cope? Is their strategies are meditation? Is there- and you know you know you're fighting for, in greater what is the way to manage your per inner interpersonal while being well. The cia has always tried to take care of its employees to be those that have these very stressful positions and responsibilities. and it is stressful cia officers handling of foreign national, who is an acid of cia, who is putting their lives on the line, because if for nationals or found out by their governments? They,

spend their life in jail or be executed, and there have been many cia assets over the years who have been killed because of see cia relationship. That is so. Important for cia officer, who is meeting with a foreign assets national to do everything everything possible to prevent any exposure. that individual solvency officers operate overseas. You know they were the school day. They go blackie, they will spend hours on ours upon hours, ensuring that there is no tell that they are picked up from the local intelligence and security services, so that when they have that very, very quick meeting with an asset in a parker support that they have not been trail, and have to make sure that the asset also conduct him or herself in a manner that is not a learning to the local authorities and goes to the same process of trying to ensure that they are not being tracked. As the

with their cia case officer. How do you have it just practical? Further, the human being? That's not a cia operative. How do you how to someone know they're not being trailed or tailed? How do you get someone off your back AK? Well, there are certain techniques, I'm not going to reveal you know CIA's tradecraft, but cia officers go through extensive, extensive training and they did the great lance and there are ways and techniques that you can at least have strong com. events that you are free of any observation you sometimes it it takes some very innovative and creative means, including the use of disguises or or whatever. So, I think, over the course of sea ice you no seventy three years or so of existence. We have developed a number of techniques and learn lessons that are very important to this

is there anything that you could share. That's more basic stuff that is is common practice are well known, well, disguises fairly well known in terms of the way to mass one's identity, has become very more much more challenging, though, as result of all technological advancements, particularly over the last two decades, especially with the evolution and explosion in the digital domain, because the environment now overseas is such that the traditional wasted get across borders- are to operate clandestinely in foreign countries no longer apply in the past Still, the intelligence services could fabricate passports as well as visas and then go into countries, and with a fistful of fifties, as people say, operates, is still a great risk, but didn't the worry about closer to televisions or the digital domain. You know because every time you use a credit card where did an atm machine, or

iphone. You know you, you are hang in there somewhere, yeah right, and so the challenge was he officers is to operate in this very busy digital environment, and so I say that ray possible right now, will you because if we could tell us officers door, don't take your your iphone, your mobile phone out of the embassy when you're, but everybody else in the embassy was not a seer officer takes it out the absence of baggage that digital pinging is a learning in and of itself. So, again, we ve had to find very creative ways to operate within this very dense digital dust environment, so that again they can operate clandestinely securely and learning more about that digital domain and the use of it both by our

foreign intelligence services and adversaries is critically important for the cia to be up operate today around the world. What would you say as the moment that your most proud of from your work there, the cia and involved in this process where there was a massive tragedy or stressful events, and you and your team really stepped up and pray I did something extremely catastrophic from happening. Well, I noticed the cia is frequently criticised for some of the tactics that it employed in the aftermath of eleven and people have the missing understanding that this, the cia is not a rogue organization, it doesn't decide. You know to do things. You know just on it's own whim that detect. In an interrogation program that included things like water boarding were directed,

By the present the united states, George w bush, they were determined to be lawful by the highest. your body in the executive branch, which is the officer legal counsel, upon adjusted. So when the sea, I receives a duly authorized order, determined to be lawful. They carry out those those programmes, I find that you know those programs where, unfortunately, you know reprehensible from the standpoint of you know, ethical principles and moral intelligence work. But again I I they were for the time. So, let's set aside that in terms of the controversy of it at the cia, in the aftermath of I eleven words day and night around the globe, including with a lot of intelligence services around the world to uncover the Al Qaeda operatives who were to carry out a second and third wave of attacks, and there was a very well developed plan by Al Qaeda too.

carry out a series of aircraft attacks against the west coast of the united states? We are going be going launched out of southeast asia heather. With the funding resources were acquired, the operators were identified, the flights and other things, and it was only because The tremendous work that sea I did along with other: u S, department agencies, but principally with the cia that stuff those who follow on attacks that could have been quite horrific, so now the sea I was the one that to deploy to afghanistan. First in the aftermath of eleven, would see I boots on the ground before you s military boots, cia officer was killed first in afghanistan before any. U s military killed their aftermath. And so that there are a lot of things that you know, and fourthly, version of ie listeners that I can't go into detail about what the the lens to which no, see I went and I think the very courageous acts they engaged in

again, some of them, I I think, were very unfortunate that were conducted, but there there is a strong track record a successor. Is it public knowledge about where Al Qaeda was going to strike on the west coast or were they going for san francisco and los angeles? Was there specific bill? cause they were trying to target or is, as I'm, not sure what has been a public her or not, and I know that there was no public acknowledgement of of this, and some of it is is detailed in previous books. but they they did have targets picked out and again flight paths that were identified and so it was again because of the the worker to disrupt that. But there are other types of things as well and attacks that

were planned. You turn the administration where they were and brought a bombs onto aircraft that they were intended, explode over the united states the infamous december christmas day, doesn't nine when someone of other mottola, who was a nigerian national, was aboard a flight that was lacking in detroit in his his pants when on fire, and I got a phone call at home and I detailed the more that They didn't know what was happening. was as persons pants on fire as they were NATO descending onto tried airport. While he tried to detonate an improvised explosive device that had been hidden in his underwear. and will serve a bit of a mosquito there and it. So it debt detonated just flamed and they were planning this excited plan to bring that aircraft down over detroit with things could have been chemistry

the results and no other attempts to do the same thing toward chicago and other efforts these are very serious threats and- and thankfully- and none of them came to fruition the way the nine eleven tax unfortunately did, but because again of the, I think, very, very greatest work that was done by cia and others. You are very, you worked very closely with obama correct. Yeah for the entire eight years, the boundless ratio for the first four plus years. I served us here. on that score it encounters adviser, in my this was in the west wing almost directly below the oval office. So I was up and down the stairs, seeing him multiple times a day and then in his second term I was director of cia. I a so yeah Is this a very, very impressive individual and I have great admiration for him Yet none of us are perfect or mistake free, and I think he would

back on his eight years and price wishes that he would have done some things differently, about that in his his book. But it I felt very privileged to work for him as well as for I work for six president's three, democrats and three republicans, and although disagreements with them. As far as policy choices, I had tremendous respect for all them because I thought that each them really try to do what they could to protect. This country in advance or national security interests, and I guess that's, why I've been so maybe outspoken, about donald trump, because I think he has been such an aberration in such an abnormal, comfort in the oval office that he put his interests above the country's interests, which president do you feel that you worked with managed. The national crisis is the best.

or were the most inspiring in your lot in your minds on how they showed up and responded based on the level of stress and crisis that would come. Like got enough for them fairly. Well, the george H, w bush bush forty one I got to know him best. In fact, when I was you know after he had left government, but the former director cia, before you can present states who was so for a year, and he always always just treasured that experience in law and so go down to used in my wife, and I would have dinner a lunch with the president bush's one with Barbara bush I'm just a very worried about he. Somebody who, given that was eight years, as vice president and democracy. I served in congress and ambassadors, china. He had a tremendous breath of areas, and so dealing with, for example, the the

four and ninety ninety ninety one he had a very, very measured as was experienced approach to deal with that I had the privilege of in president bill Clinton intelligence briefer for a year, so I would go down and with him in the oval office and go through its called a presence daily brief. And he somebody who really have very press of intellect he could absorb just no massive amounts of information process it and a tremendous powers of recall you. He could recall things that I have briefly months previously and I had long since forgotten them so very impressive, george w bush and I thought he had a lot of integrity, and I think he was mis served by some people around him up to including his his vice president. In terms of the decision to go to war with Iraq, but in the aftermath of nine eleven, the way, I think rally this country and the way he spoke out.

So forcefully and to ensure that people didn't see this as an attack by islam on in our states and made a very strong point about This is not to be blamed on on muslims or islam. This is just to a group of depraved tourist, so I do think he handled that situation very well, that you made some policy mistakes afterward, but Barack Obama. I think he very much deserves the moniker, no drama obama. because he always always was able to receive even the most the information in a very measured and calm manner and so I just a week he had also a almost a unique ability. See relationships. Far beyond the information that has been presented, you seem to always be playing like six dimensional chess, because

he always was. Looking for work, I moved my chest. Peace on this board has to affect my positioning on the other board, and here we would ask additional questions too. Stand the implications of her of a policy decision. He might make so the presence that they got to know they were different, all them, but they all again were impressive and took their nest. Security responsibilities very seriously and also tremendously valued intelligence that mean a day. You know put confidence in everything that we said they would challenge the intelligence briefings in me, but they ve. much appreciated the given take, as well as the appreciated the work and the sacrifices that were made by intelligence officers. I'll see you say you became a clauses with obama, because you were saying pretty well, yes, tat, honour on a regular basis,

late at night early in the morning. If I had to go up to the private residence me I'll, call him and wake him up So you get to know people? What can you share about the the bin laden, scenario about the strategy behind that about the information that you would give to obama about you know the planning of it's what you now. Can you share? What can you sure about that yeah. I tried to go into some detail in the book because it was a a very historic event. I think for the united states- and I think the cia, in the aftermath of nine eleven, really felt a degree as a responsibility for nine eleven attacks, but really were were crushed, that they were unable to prevent that that strike, and I love him- and so therefore, were working diligently over the core. For many years and the

in total. The business is really one where you really try to find all the different puzzle pieces and you know you're, never going to get all the pieces, and you tried to understand what those puzzle pieces reveal terms of the picture and so in the first obama term, when the emperor who is it, this year the time came into the of losses and tolerance. the cia believes that they have identified the residence of where a courier of obama, why, staying, which we were told- and we knew that if we are able to identify the carriers that were interacting with obama, they might be able to lead us then to carriers to bin Laden so without parag, abominable known or ngos and southern laudonniere, so is it was exciting, but we also knew that there were some real challenges there and when We were told that this compound was

in a place called upon abad, which also was the location where basically the equivalent pakistan, equal that the west point was that's where they were trained the military officers. So we, wonder was another pakistanis were hiding in london and giving him protection there and so Its then provoked her or sparked a month long effort to try to get as much inside as possible into who was at a compound in europe. and to observe tall individual who would walk on the compound anderson, an exercise fashion, and we called him the pacer and we didn't know whether that pacer was bin laden or not, but be Obama wanted us to come up with options in terms of if it was the mud. What would we do? and so let me remind you about track this through satellite or through. How are you saying,

if the above put it that way, you could clyde yeah yeah there are, you know we were wanting to. You know tap into our human source networks. We wanted to use different types of technical collection systems, whether they be to observe that area or ways to pick up a signals intelligence. So it was again. This is the work of intelligence officers to piece together, everything possible to again try to understand what that puzzle picture actually looks like so. The options that were considered were to hit the compound with missiles that was dismissed for a variety reasons. One is that it would cause a lot of civilian casualties in the area but also we wouldn't have had confirmation that it has been an odd who is there and so densely, we decided on the assault by the helicopters in the. U s special forces, this you are seals, new sales to go in and

It was a very, very intense, nerve, racking operation with great great secrecy associated with it it was real testament to not just through the dedication work of intelligence professionals, but the talents. Encouraging or special forces. So now You your orchestrating this whole thing, essentially you're you're planning it with day in day out for a month or two, your ear in the week. If the weather were a lot of people. I was the presents characters advisor, but I work very closely with Tom Dahlin, who is an air security adviser at the white house and with the president obama. Vice president Biden and then canada, the cia and then burma craven, who was admiral, who basically lead were over, saw that salt, so it was a obviously trifecta of poverty. The fence, the cia and the white house

It was designed to try to ensure the utmost secrecy, because we knew that finland was not gonna stay at the compound forever. ok, the leaders would go to certain locations and then leave after time, because they were afraid that their location was going to be exposed so we working against time. We also, though, new, that one of the things that burma craven told us that were going we decided on the helicopter salt that we had to according to the lunar cycle, because we twenty eight days. You want to make sure that there is going to be the least amount of of moonlight that Helicopters can travel into pakistan and the assault can take place, so you have three or maybe four day window every twenty eight days, and so we were trying to time the assault so that it would coincide with the least about the moonlight

and also the weather, fascinating and also conditions on the ground. So was that with orchestra hesitating, so it had to be one day I sat with the least amount of right right every every twenty days. If you try to optimize that, and so we decided that it was when they place on data, may first day So how many? When you said this is happening, we are doing this and we're going to be doing this in this fashion, how many months or how many days it'll take from okay. This is happening. This is the way it's going to happen. This is who's going in how long did it take until it actually happened? Well, it was in early september that the that it came into the white house and told us about this compound that might be in fact, lucas maude, and it was until may first that these halting place, so it was through the fall and winter, and then it was about.

The february marsh timeframe, when the options were narrowed down and the decisions were was made as far as how to go forward, so they had to be, the training that was done in over the the up of the facilities so that they could prepare for every eventuality, to identify the teams, so it in our and umbra months, but those last sixty days in particular march and April, was a time when we re He then were focused like a laser on. we're doing it at the nearest opportunity, but recognizing that we were not going to have. You know a full confidence that it was bin laden who was there gosh, that's crazy snow reckon time, for me was after the, all took place, and we were confident that we got bin laden and ever bring his body back to afghanistan by the the helicopters. It took nine

minutes for those helicopters to go back into afghanistan and by that by that time the pakistani air defence forces were on alert. The daddy's head some aircraft because they knew something was going down in a bottle bud and the local law enforcement we know was out there. So I was very concerned that, even if we got bin laden, if one of those helicopters were shot down and we lost a dozen two dozen of or maybe seals, it would have. and disasterous, and so I those that ninety minutes was the longest yo in in my experience, are working at issue, and you I mean you're in the white house at this time, it's late at night or what? What is this year. Will we start a one. I think that the white house around six day and the

operation started to go down. Basically at two o clock washington type. It was night time open in pakistan to three thirty, so between their time, there's gonna compound and started early, the assault. And it wasn't until seven look at night or eight o clock at night that we really had coffers it. Everybody was back it was bin laden and then and the rest of the evening we were spent during the things that we need to do so present bomber called president bush as workers and Glenn, I talk to my saudi counterpart because one of my roles was to tell the saudis that we got bin laden and, although in london was a saudi by birth, the saudis head, pulled his citizenship and My job was to offer to the saudis than the body of bin laden and we thought

they were not going to take it and they maybe they declined the opportunity, because they didn't want to. You now have to deal with the remains and what they do with them. Martyrs of his These were disposed according to islamic rights properly, but we all had some after action responsibilities, calling counterparts talking to congress and other things, president obama goes a little before left a midnight. He gave his dress too, not just the nation but to the world, right now in my office and looking up at a photo that was given to me as large photo and the present obama myself Tom donlin, was an sq advisor. Denis Mcdonough was deputy askew device at time impressive alma is in his suit, and we just went over his remarks that he was going to deliver to the nation and the looks on our faces are much more relaxed leaves were just hours before and

It really was. I think that the combination of a year's long effort by many many individuals who are working tirelessly to just bring justice in the aftermath of that nine attack, necessarily ten years after the fact of yes, I'm a man is something that you guys. I've been trying to find him for a decade and forgot how to resolve this. Essentially, what was feeling like we used to celebrate. Where did you guys have like ship hey did you have to do together like did you tell what is it like when you have ten years of tension built up for a moment of completion. well, there's the iconic photo. it's many of us were sitting in that this situation, room of the white house, a sinner ante room, we'll get around the table. We were looking up at a screen and, as you know, secretary Clinton is, you know, has her hand over mouth, but Paula, standing up

Sitting that way or word obama sitting at a charity has this intense look, we're all there's just one. The operation was going down, but one got, the word drama that you know been london's was was was down was taken, There was no celebration, no jubilation, no clapping reply, It was a very somber sullen, even with this sacred moment? If I can use that too, why? Because I think we recognise that we happen to be were the stewards of this possibility of ensure in that there was going to be justice in the aftermath of eleven and so there was no excitement that there is a sense of accomplishment but it was, it was a quiet sense. It was each other people and present was saying well done, and so we were. We were

I congratulate each other, so much as just saying boy. This was so so important and it was done so well and the team work was so strong that again, it was We just felt that we happen to be in the government the white house? with these rules at a time when all this came together, all these puzzle pieces and as I talk about the book that it was twelve thirty or so in the morning when I was going to be leaving, I was going outside to get into the car, but The outside of the west wing of the white house was lighter than usual brighter and I could hear noise and as an emerging from the doors of the west wing, I could hear from that lafayette park the square right now the white house. There was seen, as was recently, demonstrations were

this this glow customer the lights were on and there was a chance and people with horns and it was chance of usa, usa, cia algeria. I know it. I do every time because it It was the first time that day, where my emotions got the better of me. because you you're running on adrenaline and you're, trying to make sure you do everything that's necessary in order to have mission, success and ill sure that the present is getting everything that that he needs and then so coming out and hearing that inhering americans in a wee hours of the morning. You showing their there appreciation and respect for what was done. It did it tends to my god, it's the original I've got a guy gets like goosebumps this man, that's amazing! Where were you not eleven? Do you remember? Obviously I do. I was the japanese

If the director ca, which is basically the deputy chief operating officer, the agency, you know, is a senior official at CIA, we were in the morning meeting that these executive staff would hold and right at the end of the meeting, the head of our operations centre came in and said a plain. Just here the world trade center. Nobody tells him that, as far as this as the plan. What serious work as well. Looking at each other and we we knew that Al Qaeda was to carry out some attack, including in the home, and that we didn't have. Unfortunately, the detail of when it was going to happen or the target and so we ended the meeting and we went back to her office. My office was right across the hall from this conference room where the media was being held in so I was king then at the television that was in the sweet of offices there and I saw the second plain hit the other tower. So. The smoke coming out of the tower where the first went ahead and everybody

new immediately. This was a tighter were under attack, and it was you know all on deck, and so the rest of the day we were busy evacuating the building, because we had intelligence that see I headquarters was on the target list. I remember through. Building a knocking on doors and making sure that we have to get people out of the building we are for. to working on counter terrorism stayed there, irrespective of the the risk in the strategy, there was just a tremendous tremendous requirement to learn. nothing about who is on those planes. What else might be planned and there was gridlock in the on the streets in and roads in the nearby area. So I just hours upon hours to get. You know all the. non essential. Cia officers offer the compound, but

I knew then the next you know years, certainly large, immediate near term was going to be just so demand on cia to be able to respond to a quota hopping No, I mean you say all hands on deck. This is pre. I followed this is pre source, media. This is, You know I remember today, eleven number freshmen at college point football and early in the morning I remember seeing that I don't even know what the world trade center was in, I'm a guy from ohio. I had no clue what the world trade center was, but then it became very obviously very quickly learned what was going down. How do you heather enough information. When it everyone seems to be in chaos, the country, the world, its there's, no intelligence,

through phones like there, is now like what do people do if you're, just like calling a landline or just the will of the cia, had communication systems that we were able to. You know talk securely to our people overseas, our foreign counterparts and others The cia has a presence in many many many countries around the globe, and so immediately said every went to a sort of battle stations, but one of the things about the cia and also the u s, government, as good as we are we rely so heavily on our foreign counterparts. Because they are the ones with the eyes and ears in the countries of the concern of interest and so we had to work very, very carefully and coasts closely with them and intensively twins. or that they gave us whatever information they had. They could have helped pieced together that puzzle to find out who is research, sport, who else might be out there.

Because we were very concerned about those follow on attacks. We didn't know if they're to take place the next day, the next week or mothers whatever. So quite a while we were on you, know, raises edge and racing against time to do. We could that's why you see, I was asked to send people immediately to afghanistan and to work the afghan locals in the tribes and to see whether or not we could find out where a crater was in the leadership was in that light, and to the? U s military arriving in the push against the areas where they were holed up in and tore, and what kind of scattered- and so

it became then a a years long effort to try to again find disrupt, dismantle the Al Qaeda and your entire organization. How do you personally deal with self doubt when, maybe you don't have all the information or or all the data, and that's your responsibility and you're saying here's what we need to do? Here's what we think something is: let's take these actions. How do you overcome doubt and insecurity, information that may be accurate or maybe not yet to be innovative leader really within organization or with the president or whatever its. Challenge, and the thing is that the cia has very intensive training programmes and tries to ensure that you understand exactly what Innovation are important how to evaluate them, how to determine how the collect, more information, but then when you're in these positions, responsibility- and I think one of the important

lessons that I learned is to know when You need to make a decision and when you Is it not time to wait for more rights? but also one of the critical skills I think in those officers and policymakers is to try. to ensure that you understand the gap In your knowledge- was Tom told his officers were going to cooperate in a brief down the white house. Whatever is to make sure that the people that their briefing understand that what your sharing is not the totality of the people decide tat mercedes. We might only have ten puzzle pieces there might be nor a hundred yet to be found, and so to stand in the context and making sure that you appreciate the lot, the the gaps in your knowledge and the the confidence you have in it, but again there come a time when, whether your presidency, whether you're a and tells us officer treacherous yea,

you know that you have to make a decision based on the knowledge that you have the advice that you get recommendations that you are given and traded the best job possible with what is available to you and looking back over MIKE here there were decisions I made based on the data I had based on the sense that I had a what was the right decision. There were mistakes that were made those who had lived with the rest of my life and I would always go back and try to say why did it not go the way we thought and again learned, lessons from them, but begin when you're in these positions, if you wait for tally of knowledge, It's I see it, as is the sins of omission you can makes

The commission, but the sins of omission can be as devastating yeah and how do you personally deal with you? No decisions made that you tried to give your best based on the information in what was available but ended up in hurting people or causing tragedies in some way. How do you personally deal with that to make sure that you have competence, moving forward in decision making, sometimes a change your confidence. Certainly It makes you wonder whether not you not just whether decisions that you made were around budgets How are you gonna be able to make future decisions yeah, but again if you're going to be in these positions, of tremendous responsibility You cannot neglect. responsibilities by avoiding decisions, You have to know when it's, we should make a certain decision. Were you don't have to make a decision, but the best in terms of the basque government of space public. Sir.

I've seen take to heart. states that they make and really tried to ensure that they their absolute best, never ever to have two make a decision that might entail a new another mistake there and fortune I think the the overwhelming number of of decisions that are a major are the right ones and has the nerve to big strategic decisions. You do we invade iraq, will that obviously big, that's so many more decisions, actions or whatever also a technical decisions that are made that have just you know have implications but in a defined time were space, but then The broader geostrategic decisions that are made had have in a reverberations ratios in a well beyond know that day or that that that area

was there anything that you were against. That ended up being a big mistake in the last thirty forty years. you're you're saying you know, I don't really think we should be doing this as a nation, whether it was a president's decision or whoever's decision was writhing relax, you're, not You have done without that was initiated. working across the thirty years. I saw some things that I very much disagree with and when I was director I tried to correct some of those things thought were wrong. The sea? I was involved in something like toppling governments in yemen in earth in our history certainly during the cold war, when there was this, you know rivalry and competition and was existential. You know, oh tension between the united states the union, and so there was a race to try to heal, gain favour in different parts of the world

talk about also the book is that I am very much an opponent of any type of dissemination of disinformation. I think it's, the propaganda, the putting out falsehoods and and told her services, including here u s. Intelligence services had done that over the years in order to advance their interest, but for sport is incompatible with the values of our country. I think it can be very, very damaging if its uncovered, but also the united states should really be seen as a beacon of truth, as opposed to false smears just to advance. You know some particular programme a project also. I do believe strongly that the coverlet programmes. These are programmes again authorized by a prisoner states should never be done just to conceal, embarrassing information, or I think that too

You know the the handling of states sometimes helps has to be hidden overseas, but also I think we need to take more responsibility for the types of things that we do as a way to demonstrate how a country operates in the international, women in a responsible judicious manner and so There have been some things that again this year has been involved in over the years, with a b disinformation or again toppling regimes, and these are things they think never should take place. What's definition of integrity integrity is is coming Things me honesty is at the root of that but also when I stood, I would a menace to the oath of office to incoming cia officers. Every month in the CIA lobby and I would underscore the importance of integrity which which brought employee into the agency were willing to trust them with the nation secrets and be part of this, your family.

integrity of the distinction between right and wrong. I don't say good Leave us really right and wrong. It's. What does that? Norstar? Wouldn't know what those moral lessons ethical lessons, one of those present and values that really do define? I think what it means to be a good person, a kind person, an honest person, a person who is not going to try to take advantage of others in order to advance their own personal interests. take is sort of a package of what a person how a person, and to find themselves as well as how they treat others and again, I think honesty You melody her recognition that we are on this planet. I think too,. try to ensure the betterment of mankind. I just that there is a sense that, for me

integrity makes one aware of their responsibilities on this earth and again carries out there their activities responsibilities in the most honest forthright manner. How do you live with integrity, knowing that you're being so deceitful in in that in the business that you're in it's too, as that essentially not be an integrity in certain practices. But how do you personally keep your integrity as an individual and make sure you stay on the norstar path, the others, because the end does not justify the means by any stretch of the imagination. I think that's why. The reasons why I decided to get out of the operations profession, because I could let's see myself doing that and deceiving individuals now.

I think there are some things where the pursuit of of just ends and and and good outcomes it can allow for certain types of behaviour and activities that facilitate the the accomplishment of those annual and good goals. But you knew s question earlier: how does he ain't officers in a really meeting integrity in their personal lives, and you know adopt these other sort of personas and and tactics, and sometimes I found that it was hard for individuals and I found that some people were were not living by that that division of maintaining that integrity in everything that do except for Maybe those aspects, their operational responsibilities, where at least that initial meeting were initial meetings with somebody present themselves as a department of state officer departed events officer. Is that

that's something that really is unethical. Well, maybe it's not completely truthful, but as long as then the relationship with the individual, it to certain types of of trades were attributes. I think that your foot in the door by maybe not that being fully transparent, it is, I guess you may be right rising church. It necessarily unprincipled is, the area I get it. It's finding like justice through these actions. I understand that a curious. How much I mean a lot of this comes to me of understanding identity, because as a forum I would say for myself as a former football player, and see this today, where sometimes guys do wrongful things of outside of a court or the field or whatever it may be. On the football field, then they'll do bad things right, though, get their wives or they'll do certain aggressive actions that

reflects being on the football field, and I remember, as a football player, we were trained to have this identity to inflict pain. You hit with anger. You now to do these certain actions and live This persona, this identity, and then you take the paths, often you're supposed to be this loving vulnerable, human being did you see I deal with identity in psychology, training in terms of making cars you ve gotta play the part all in and then play different part. That's gotta be checked right psychologically emotionally for some people I think, that's a big big question for most everybody in the world in your right. I play lot ports as well, and It's so much depends on leadership and the role modeling, that's parents, provide, teaches, provide coaches, provide

I remember, you played high school basketball and lose a team that we played and there were no, they were higher rank and we were, and their players would take every opportunity if the roof was looking grab a shirt give the elbow whatever and just resort to any tactic in order to win, watching them in watching the coach with them was almost encouraging it, and so some people? Have this scene of approaches in a win it at all costs and inculcates and in individuals than this, this attitude and an approach to life that It goes beyond you know the football field or the basketball court, it's how they they work in in business or in whatever profession they are or or cheat in school, and so I think it's it's. We have to get back to you having maybe a stronger educational system and to have

source at a very early age too, again tried to distinguish between right and wrong, now? Sometimes the adrenaline gets going in you know now, when I you know, you see a team score, a touchdown, my goodness, it's a you, know a rally in the endzone. You know years ago. They would catch and you know and throw the ball downward up and go, and just you know, but, and so the the Culture, I think, has changed a lot but I do think having some real opening discussions about what is appropriate. What is and is not, but roll modeling, walking the talk But one thing I realize was a cia as director every was watching what I did listening to what I said- and I had to always be very aware of that- I wasn't sending any you know on what unintentional signals or what are the way I said something was was received in a way that it wasn't intended, because

what person does at the top or a coach says, workers does really does have residence, then, within the picnic members, the team, so I do think it's for cia officers for intelligence officers making sure they understand exactly what their obligations are. On the professional front. personal front What does it mean to have professional and personal integrity? What boundaries within which one has to work and one of the challenges for cia offices, I think, is just because something is is lawful. Does mean that its ethical or principles such as these ample attention translation programme and so what I tried to do. Another cia is too for supporting sure some everything we do is lawful, but then is it consists. with the values that I think that I need to know the sienese to embody, is it consistent with the the ethics and principles of of what the united states and in the press, Intelligence agency should in fact be engaged in

everybody's going to have their own individual northstar. That has been shaped throughout the course of their life, but I think that, if we're we go to a new, maybe just a better sense? I feel there is right and wrong too many people up for the wrong, including politicians today who role model, for especially our young americans over this eat dishonesty lie, integrity, the lack of decency. it's just unfortunately, being emulated far and wide, which is unfortunate? Would you say some practical things that you're allowed to share of understanding of someone's lying or not? Is there any tips you could give them? that are common practice that you could see. You know, there's some there's something

you're really find out about person when they do these things or if their time why these people will pick up one some discomfort in terms of how one moves are handled themselves in it, when somebody's the of of events story changes that usually good indication and so you ll find the people who try to get out of you know comparability of something and they'll give one version of what happened, and then you know that ex version. Will peace and either slightly different, or is it tell me truth, usually you you know, I think it's imprinting your brain the events, as you remember them, as opposed to train to misrepresent the facts, and so, There are some things that I think you know the cia officers will try to evaluating and detect

when they are dealing with the potential as it were called a developmental, were, a foreign national interest once again, the stories that the people we've sometimes give them give them get away rapidly. I'm curious what was the biggest challenge you had to overcome personally from your years of working with the cia? Was it a level of learning how to be a better leader? Was it confidence, was its certain skill. You'd have to develop. What was the biggest challenge your face when you started that you that you really overcame grew into in a positive way? That was no longer a challenge for you like it was pretty, actually, I think he was by all the above. I I I. I learned some really painful lessons. You know the the first time I had a management role at cia. I had no training for whatsoever and all of a sudden. You know I was a an analyst in a and it was called a branch of you know eight or nine people and a lot of them were

me and even more senior than me, but I became their branch chief one day I made a lot of mistakes and it was very painful, and I very much regret it, But it was through those experiences that I was able then to develop some of the better leadership and management techniques that I needed to acquire more but those mistakes, if you wish you Why was? I was rather officious in terms of ill and was detained. The people one of my responsibilities was to review papers that people right, and so I would we write them the way I would write a thought they had and I needed to understand that we all have our own strengths and weaknesses, but we all have our different types of approaches and styles s and I needed to understand, respect and able to leverage in all the different styles,

and and also engage more. I was pretty strong introvert. You know. I think I still am when I'm speaking out about some politicians and so I needed to sit down talker people and then listen, and I think I was a little bit too much of a loner, and so over the course of of my career. I was it, fourchan is able to work for some very good people who taught me some lessons vacant when I was the executive director of the executive director, whose name was buzzy kroenke arduous from the banks, the street. He came into cia when he's a real management neck and the wedding, I thought I was going to be as deputy the first thing he said to me. He goes John. I want you to know that you can make a mistake. He said

it's kind of interesting guidance. He said now. There are some caveats to that. One is. I want you to make sure that you don't make the same mistake twice, because that shows you're, not learning person. So a mistake you make, you have to learn from it. He doesn't. Secondly, if there is a decision that you have to make, that is the equivalent of a shot if it goes wrong. It's below the waterline he's a former rain. So there's an article reference there He said you really need to raise it up the chain of command. You need to bring other people into that. He said this agency is big and strong. It can take a lot of shots above the waterline If it's a shot is gonna be near the waterline or below the waterline, that's not something that's you to do on your own, and he said he he and good leaders managers of those know who know what actions they should take he said I don't want you be afraid to make decisions, because that's what you're here for to make the right,

in europe. In your position he says: a good measures and good leaders, the ones who know the actions decisions they should make and then the actions and decisions they need to raise up the chain of command or that they need to bring other people into that russian before a decision is made a sudden, understanding that is really, I think, the key to the good leadership until it was something that was impressed upon me, and I think that the course of my subsequent career the same approach and I use that those same talking points with the people at work for me and then I think, there's worse background, you understand it's not that with the the hot shooter that wins the championships. If the team able to really work well together that is so so important, and how do you develop teamwork with non superstars? Sometimes I think it's it's a lot. Here too, the pop teamwork with non superstores because then there is mutual dependence as well that in cia people are asking me when I was here

the office. What is it that is the key to success? It is You said you became director. What was it as well? haven't become director, but it also shows that anybody can Obviously, the new humility integrity, all those things, but I said the people flame out in the agency, who I thought no had all the talent that they needed with a one who were really that individual operator people, that's, kept information from others- the people who tried to promote themselves at meetings the individuals who didn't recognize that one of the real objectives of the. Agency is to have peace empower one another. What can you do to help empower the work of other cia officers and what can others due to empower you. It's that interactive system. That really is going.

define the success of the organization because you don't want to have a bunch of you, know insular points as well as at the agency, we reorganize the agency to better integrate the with the operators in the scientist, acknowledges open source specialists with aroused, may the real secret a success and your future problems is integration of capabilities in efforts to that you have an awareness of what others can do, what their capabilities with the tools are with their authorities, are that awareness, then you can better plug in play, to have a more sort of a symbiotic relationship between themselves and for in it in a team and I put in a lot of things and mediocrity, things that were that gelled. Well that even though it might have only had a five and record times it was above what we were individually capable of, because we were operated as a team and

that again depends on on leadership the tone the coach sets the signal sent the reward systems as well as the individuals you can have somebody be the leader of the team of the cap in the team who are not gonna, be the hot shot We're not going to be the star. they're the ones who are going to motivate the once we're going to continue to set an example and to me that that the difference between success and failure of any organization- eyes so that that the team component and mutual interdependence that that recognition, that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts is is really so. So important, and I didn't recognize that when I was an early manager, a leader at the agency, I had to learn that over time that I had to rely more on other individuals that is, and people who

that there, the best the smartest the brightest wisest they they are failing to recognise the reality of the of the, We talk about leadership. You worked with six of the the biggest leaders in the country. Do you think that the presence and when their voted in and their chosen, do you think they are already great leaders or do you think they become great through the mistakes and adversity? challenges they face in their presidency. Now I don't think the boyne great leaders, I think some of them have some innate traits and inclinations that allow them to develop into a very good leaders- and when you think about members of congress either in the senate, the house there legislators in know that they may have a staff that they have to oversee, but they don't we believe you know, organizations or enterprises whatever. I think there are certain skills that attached to that

you know you look at a donald trump. He was the the head, ceo of a family organization. You know the people basically snap to. I don't think he did of any real leadership skills their but I saw that the presence that I got to know well, while they were present, you know bill Clinton to a degree, because I was daily. Before the ambush and and certainly obama, I saw them over the course of their eight year terms, each of them served, really mature terms of their understanding of the, see challenges they had to deal with they, attain greater knowledge. With greater knowledge. I think you are able to be a wiser leader. and so I do think that all of them el up certain types of traits and care. sticks

maybe, in their second terms, I think if george bush's decision to invade iraq in two thousand three. I dont think he would have made the decision in his second term really I think he would have again and again, a better sense of what the implications of that decision we're going to be, but in the aftermath of nine eleven and afghanistan, or whatever also think he just was brought along in its net stream of of you know, recommendation said yeah yeah and a lot of regulations that you know, people who wanted to invade iraq, irrespective of the intelligence Siena, were determined to pursue. So at an end with brok, obama I think he entered the oval office with very strong idealistic visions And as well as goals ethically me maintain, maintain idealism, but also it was It was Levin significantly by

experiences that he had practical realities of dealing with these very, very difficult issues, both domestically and internationally understanding better. What is possible and doable end trying to demise, those issues and those outcomes that he he felt he could achieve. In recognising that there are some issues here that were basically beyond the the solution that he in fact favoured, and I do think that and sent him. When I was to see I direct recourse to four years, I came to realize that there are some things that I feel very strongly about that needed to be done but having a better sense of the the ecosystem. If you will, but you operate with, and gives you a better sense of, what's achievable, what's important, what you consider to be your priorities,

fascinating? Where do you think we would be as a country if we didn't invade iraq I think that first in the middle east would be so radically different, because it was the invasion of Iraq and then the employees of Iraq that then allowed isis, islamic state of rock and syria to to grow, He tat was a caliphate whatever and just ravage, iraq and syria and Had tremendous tremendous impact on the region as a whole I'm not saying that you know we wouldn't have had challenges and issues with saddam hussein who was a ruthless bloody authoritarian leader without a doubt, but the invasion of Iraq set off a chain of events that just had tremendous implications? You know throughout the region as a as a country. I think the invasion of Iraq really did distract quite a bit from our effort in afghanistan, because then we

this two fronts in a war going on and enforcing where's, you know a storm Afghanistan after eighteen nineteen years and I do think that we need to maintain some presence there, but I do think you iraq and afghanistan to very happy. What's going on simultaneously really did sap ability to deal with either one of those issues effectively. but also the united states. What travesty is the best malta in the world, and we certainly can win wars the prevailing over Insurgencies is no different, but we certainly can you know trout any, the military those out there, but we as a government as a country, we do not do a good job of following a military victory with effective programmes, assistance and welcome not talking about regime building. I'm talking about it's easy to distracted, much harder to construct

and unfortunately we don't have. I think the capabilities is approached her experience that allows us to develop the water, countries, certainly in the middle east, south asia. It was much different, then repairing the amateur were too in post war to europe and japan. Those were We have different types of societies, but in the tribal there for a and new countries and is largely rule areas without the development of local institutions and experiences is much more difficult to Caesar victory from the farmer military conquest. What would you say are the three common principles, leadership, qualities that all the presence you worked with had? What were those three things they all kind of developed that were similar that made them,

active in leading in the white house and also effective in making decisions and being the position. They were I'd, say professional integrity. and bill Clinton is a little bit of a different sample because of his personal problems and issues there and people will say well, he didn't have personal integrity. Well, it's up to people to make that the subject of judgment but I think all of them had that professional integrity they took their responsible, is very seriously. They always right to decide on a policy course. Both to clean internationally that they believed was in it, the interests of the country, not in the best interests of their party, nor in their own personal interests. That's if so, I do think that professional integrity is was important. Secondly, at least in the issues that I dealt with them, I felt that

again, I get plain in the present responsibilities. They try to be as honest as possible is because with integrity, but I do think being as I was with the american people in particular, and also just and to ensure that americans understood what was happening. I do think to varying degrees. They they. They all try to do that. The third they all recognised that the nice eight strength on the global stage, really depends heavily on the strength of our alliances and partnerships, and that We really need to make sure that we take care of those, nation ships not taken for granted

that's important because of less than five years, the united states has been the leader of the free world and it's because of the Ability, I think that we have had and the recognition of the port of a lot of countries around the world. They depend on that. U s! Leadership role! I do thing all those those presidents. Stood it. They have an appreciation of history. And the role that he was played and then finally I think it is that they leave strongly of the united states has to play that leadership role on the global stage that I believe in american exceptionalism not because were small brighter better, looking much fear than anybody else we have exceptional good fortune. Look at this large wonderful country, with bountiful natural resources, arable land, navigable rivers, lord seacoast them the world's melting pot, we have all those features of success

No other country has that and given those optional good fortune. We exceptional responsibilities. That's why them that the mantra of america first amerika first has been so shrill on the ears of people the global and people who, in I still stay in touch with you overseas, that he's in there is using its masculinity using all of its exceptional advantages to advantage itself at the cost of others I do believe that president Clinton and bush obama and before them new president bush? Forty one and reagan and carter and ford the others that they really did under. stand that the united states This very very important global sponsor that, of course we have to take care of our country and our own people but that doesn't mean we do it at the expense of the rest of the world and

the more the united states is seen as being an advocate for the growth and prosperity of the world. I think the more in favour, we will be in the more the better we will be as well. So I do think that those presence, We can then integrity really try to be honest, recognize the importance of the relationships. Nice has run the world and then also I recognise that the united states has this very unique and important global role: leadership role, that we must play yeah, they give a spider. Man said with great power, comes great responsibility and we had. We have a lot of power and I think we have a lot of responsibility.

To live in the world as well, I want to keep going, but I want to be respectful of your time and I have a couple final questions for sure this is called the three truths question I ask of all my guests at the end, so I'd like you'd, imagine a hypothetical scenario that it's your last day on earth. Many many years from now and you have lived the exact life you want I haven't accomplished everything else you want to accomplish, but for whatever reason, all of your material or your content, this interview this book, it has to go with you to the next place you go. So no one has access to your rent words, your audio, your videos anymore, but you get to leave behind a piece of paper that has three things. You know to be true or your three greatest lessons that you ve learned in your life that you would leave behind for the world as all they would have to kind of remember you buy. I called the three What would you say are your three teachers? My three truths about myself.

Interest for the world three. The three lessons that you want to leave behind the boy should have prepared for this, and we are all imperfect. things, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive for perfection. recognize that. There is so much about life? We don't know. and maybe much of it is a normal, but should strive to understand as much as we can about who we are. Why we're here and what it means The third is to remember that we all are individual beings, port away, a larger global collective and that

Each have a responsibility to do something during are short and fleeting lifetimes. That benefits mankind in some way. mother truths. But there are things that, unless I think about at great what as someone who is now retired. But what is the impact you want to have on the world moving forward beyond this book, which I want people to get, because we we barely scratched the surface on a lot of the stories in here and the lessons, an incredible eye, opening principles that you've you've learned through your years of working with these presidents and in the cia. But I want people to get this book, my fight against america's enemies

when abroad. Undaunted me she check this out. But what is it you want to create moving forward? But when the reasons were to write a memoir which was to provides a glimpse into what it means to work in the world. Intelligence and their security to try to encourage americans, too serious consider some type of problem Service during their lifetime it's intelligence or law enforcement, diplomatic corps or even local communities, does not be the federal government, but this is a great big, wonderful country. I am the son of an immigrant, my father emigrated from and when he was twenty, eight years old and nineteen? Forty eight and always stilled in me and my brother and my sister just a special was to be a american citizen and he never ever take it for granted. He go, he said

is upon. Millions of people over the years have striven at a great cost. Then sacrifice to come to the united states. We did because It is the land of opportunity. It is through the land that their dreams are made, and there too often americans were born here, really take for granted. All of these exceptional exceptional good fortune that we have and its he said is important to be able to get back to this great country of ours and and so I ve tried to spend time on filet with my two other matters, boredom university in new york and the universe, excellent, asked him a distinguished fellow and I talked to a lot of students. in seminars and give them some. I share my experiences about what life was like and working the government What I really wanted to do was to share the great honour that I had

course of thirty three plus years and to tell them that, despite what you might you know here about and despite what you hear in washington in terms of integration and disparagement, tells us a lot. Enforcement of the deep state unfortunately, we live in this type of partisan, very politicize, very acrimonious him environment right now, but their import things that we need to preserve about this country. and there is real, significant challenges that are on the horizon: We need to, I think, work more harmoniously to try to address. The challenges that range from terrorism- the liberation to climate change too cyber challenges? You name it and we need to tap into great melting pot of ours, so that the best and brightest really do

tribute in some way to form a more perfect union, and so I just I'm trying to spend much tat was. It can show my experiences a minor security career is be in my rearview mirror, but to the extent that you know this, this book helps to against spark, maybe an interest. I like to write some more being more. I guess analytical about some of the The fire had ahead and just again to share my experiences as early as it can. You mentioned the deep state. This is something I don't really know much about as I have just heard about. I've never seen it. But this is what is this conspiracy theory that the elite of the richest in the world, our influence and government in certain ways and making decisions that essentially, the yeah depends on one's perspective of feel how they view the deep state aid that there is this a very large cabal afloat.

in intelligence in law enforcement are things that operate clinic, late to try to shape world events in a national developments and, despite the best efforts of the politicians and the leaders who are trying to you know, undercut the deep state I worked in government version over thirty years. I never encountered the deep state again that I think just a some people who are just trying to make a point about. You know people that in the government who're operating clandestinely robustly against the veterans united states and is just a flat out lie while they you heard it here, then, if someone wanted to become the president of the united

its say in the next fifteen twenty years or someone's thinking about it. One day I want to become the president, would you stay are two to three things. They should develop as a leader now to prepare themselves to win the presidency and then be a great leader in their turn, try to acquire as much knowledge as possible about What's going on in the country in the world If you don't have that that knowledge again of current events of history of the law he won't understand the the nation, the challenges, as well as the opportunities that are out there. Secondly, hour I have become very jaded about forests and politics because I think,

party, loyalties too often take precedence over integrity and where people should be doing everything that a future present in our states woman, a man whatever will, emerge from a non non. An environment from the standpoint of one of the two traditional looking eyes interesting, because I think we always want the president to be a president of all not have a present of of of a party or a particular constituent base, and I I do think that it governance in the for centuries really difficult, and I think we had to be thinking new models for leadership and the qualities of leadership- and I do think having less

should, I understand, is a feature of the of the global landscape and persons can be re healthy, but leadership really rico I want to transcend partisanship and frequently its is difficult, but I also think that president really needs to be non ideological and because of learning more about the world and having it A more pragmatic and practical understanding that the world is a complex, complicated place that there are no simple solutions to difficult problems. Despite the rhetorical flow of a lot of politicians that these are tough, tough issues that really require a better. Understanding of the nature of the problems, but also a sense that we can finally, to be compromised and then finally, I just the very real

where's the polarization exists within this country. I really hope that we're going to have more leaders who are not going to be either end of that political spectrum, the left or the right. I have. No tolerance the ideological out there because they wear blinders and they view the world through a very myopic prism that they don't have an open mind for how their view whose might be a bit off, so I do hope that and then. Finally, I think that, if you

which presents are going to have the requisite humility, understanding what the limits of their of their knowledge, as well as their capabilities are, and that they're going to rely on a lot of other people. In order to be successful and effective. President yeah build a great team around you cause you're not going to have all the answers. Obviously, as sports teams do it exactly John, I I really acknowledge you for showing up the way you do right now. After serving, for so many years. I was thirty three years and cia, he served twenty nine and a half, or so is here in the four plus at the white house, as was amongst systems. I now do for a show up for as long as you did under the extreme amounts of stress and anxiety and answer.

in t and on shrewdness of decision making at times and where potential regrets and mistakes and weight that you might have had to carry for for different things. I really acknowledged you for leading with a humble heart and and serving at this stage, your life in a way to really help educate us and reflect back on lessons learned and how we can become better as human beings and as a country and in the world, and acknowledge you for for showing up the way you're showing up. Now, it's it's really inspiring to to witness and see what's possible as someone leading yeah a high level in the government area, so I really knowledge for that, and I'm excited for people to get this book tons of great stories, lessons and things that you'll really want to learn about. If you want to gather information and become a better leader, you've got to gather information about the past, and this has a lot of that information. So make sure you check out this book, I have

One final question: for you is it the toughest thing is usually reserved for less. It should be easy. I beg for you, but before I it's good to make sure people follow you on twitter, you're, John Brennan over there is or anywhere else. We can support you, follow you and engage with you online know a pop up, you're in their different to use gas and other types of things in the I I don't know what the next chapter of my life is going to fully involve. But you know I have tried to take a step back a little bit from twitter. Also, I didn't, I Didn'T- want to see the twittersphere to donald trump and that's why I engaged in a rather. You know straightened way at times that, much to my my critics, dismay and anger, theatre, visit, the I'm originally from jersey. So you know it's fake out. The jersey comes out as well as my irishness comes out, and I'd like to think that

people never have to guess where I stand on issues and that's why I have been a criticized from all ends of the political spectrum to spy out and ensure they go or they can follow you there. If you ever get back This is the basis, but the final question is: what is your definition of greatness? definition of greatness, accomplishing something that is beneficial do more than yourself too, to making a positive difference You taking full advantage of. of one's life to do something productive, something helpful something important something profound. Something memorable and a good sense making it

contribution to human kind, and sometimes it can be, I think that is a globally known and understood, but some things that are known only to a relatively few but unknown people can achieve greatness require a very large public profile. Sometimes people seize opportunities that come to them. They rise.

The occasion and so again, greatness to me just means that it's a it's something meaningful that someone is able to achieve and accomplish at it again something that is that affects whether themselves as beautiful john. I really appreciate for coming on. I want people to get the book on down to check this. Out and thank you so much for your service, your leadership and for your humility again. I really appreciate it and he loser leader the conversation that wishes to you until Ulysses and thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode of you enjoyed this content with John brennan natura check out his book, sure to share this link to a friend that you think would be inspired, spread the message of greatness forward. Louis stay, calm, slash one, zero, five, one or just copy and paste this link.

With your friends on social media, make sure to tag me louis house, and let me know what you thought of it. so we ve got the full video or at you you got com, slash louis house if we want to describe over on Youtube emily strong over there and its growing rapidly. We ve got incredible content, over the years so make sure check out some of the youtube stuff as well, and click that subscribed button right now. Podcast, if you enjoy this, because that will help us reach more people on apple, which is the biggest audience we draw from current So if you enjoy this, if you're a phantom show if you're a fan of helping others, then click on that subscribe, button, leave a rating in review right now. It really helps us spread the word, so we can continue to reach an interview, more powerful people with greater wisdom to share if you'll enjoy inspiration, to be motivated and inspired on a weekly basis than you can text me? The word podcast right now to my number six one for three: five: zero: three: nine six zero! I send out

weekly, inspirational messages over to your phone right. There's just text the word podcast for six months: three five zero. Three nine six zero, and I will leave you with this inspiring quote marcus aurelius. Who said waste no- more time arguing about what a good man should be be one who and I would remind you of no one's told you lately that you are loved you are worth and you matter my friend. I am so grateful for you for showing up day day out to make your life better? lives of people around you better, and you know what What is it to go out there and do something great The.