This is absolute number, one thousand one hundred and eighty six with Deborah Turkey, welcome to the school of greatness monuments, Louis how, as a former proactively turn lifestyle entrepreneurs in each week we bring you and inspiring person or message to help. You discover how twenty lock your inner greatness. Things are spent some time with me today. Now let class begin Welcome back my friend today's gas is Deborah Turkey, farmer, she's a professor at Northwestern University, Pritzker School of law, and she aren't her undergraduate degree from Harvard College and her law degree from Yale LAW School Turkey Calmer served for five years as an assistant district attorney in New York, county district attorney's office, where she specialised in domestic violence and child abuse, prosecution, she's written a new book called credible. Why we doubt acute

and protect abusers, and in this episode we discuss how to create a safe space for people to openly talk about their trauma and abuse. What Deborah calls the credibility complex and how to work around it? What to do if you're, a victim who hasn't shared your story yet why abusers have traditionally been protected and what we need to change in our society. The immediate steps you should take after being abused and so much more and it's my intention to help spread awareness to help those who have dealt with this type of abuse. But there is a chance that this episode could be a trigger for some of you, and I want to mention that before we get into today's episode and if you're inspired and filling moved to share this, then please messenger some friends posts essential for medium and that people know about this episodes. We can get this message out there more in a big. Thank you.

to our fan of the week, who left a review, Oberon Apple podcast recently from Christie, said Louis, your podcast is my favorite a tune into weekly. You manage to share so much value all the time, and I am so fascinated by the mind and body connection. So thank you for continuing to educate me and others. I am super grateful to you Christie. We appreciate you and everyone listening right now, because we are just as much learning on team greatness in mind as as you are so thanks for learning with us. Please subscribed to the school of greatest of one apple. Podcast right now leave us review at the end of this episode of the part that you were inspired by the most and spread the message of Greatness Ford. Ok in just

I want the one and only Deborah Turkey timer when you want to find great rates, organize your finances or just make smarter money decisions. Lending tree is here for you with the lending tree ass. You can see all your bank accounts at a glance. She can better understand, you're spending and saving and build a budget that works You monitor your credit score, explore ways to improve your credit and get automatic alerts to protect your identity plus lending tree can help you make sure you're getting your best deal on loans, insurance, credit cards and more through their wide network of banks and lenders. Lending tree gives you personalized tips and insights to help you save money and richer financial dreams. What do you want to pay off debt by a home, build credit or just make things a little?

here then tree has your back for all your short and long term goals and for more than twenty years lending tree has helped millions of people simplify their finances with trusted education, expert advice and comprehensive services, and there are no subscriptions. No fees, no hassle, just easy, honest, straightforward support to make the most of your money and achieve greater financial health. Download the free lending tree up right now to get started in see why thousands of people turn to lending tree every day for smarter, easier finances terms and conditions may apply, and an l s number one one. Three six while the Maghreb school grass are very excited about our guest, Deborah Turkey in the house good to see you next let's school, brainer spanking, you

you put out this amazing both called credible. Why we doubt accusers and protect abusers lot about sexual abuse. Sexual misconduct I have you know a lot about my story, but my audience is harming talk about this May times our sexual abuse, the kid by a man that I didn't know for twenty five years held two calendar the pain, the suffering, the the silence of it, because I was so ashamed of myself for being that situation didn't have the tools our strategies to heal or cope or communicate what I was going through and it took me twenty five years. Until I find I realized, I can no longer live with this. I can alone what this pain suffer. Resentment anger, frustration, shame and started to find tools and how to communicate effectively. This is a little bit different, but I feel it in a way that

There's a lot of people in the world have dealt with sexual misconduct and life, and they dont have tools there, for come out and speak about it when they speak about it, people try to discredit them. So my first question is, What would you say the biggest signs that someone has been abused sexually are gone through some type of sexual conduct in their life. If they're, not speaking about it, what can we. not for as a friend a family member appear coworker tobacco something's happening. I wonder if its session was cut yeah. I have heard you speak about your story so powerful and I think it really brings home how it can help on that path toward healing when someone is able to talk about what happened and yet it so difficult, we can talk more about why that is in terms of signs. I got an email just this morning from

a man whose daughter was sexually assaulted and she stayed quiet about it. He said for over a decade and he said looking back He saw what he called behavioral changes. Really is on my mind because it just came into my box this morning, but I don't think it's unusual. part of the problem is its ease to see in hindsight and we all change and go through. I'm transition throughout our lives, for lots of different reasons, not only because we ve been victimized, but I do think that Then, when someone experiences, something dramatic, a sexual assault, let's say- or maybe ongoing sexual harassment they are giving signs to the people near them that that might indicate that there's then going on and if you're a friend a family member, maybe it's worth asking what.

What does someone never is willing to open up about it? How do you criticise space, System we like now nothing ever happen, but you're so afraid of about a yeah yeah? I think that honouring that is really important. I mean people will speak I think when they're ready to speak and what we can do if were close to someone is. Let them know we're here, and we will support them when they are ready to tolerate what happened. Maybe it's in a therapeutic setting. Maybe that's the first place where someone discloses, maybe it's too a roommate or to a friend or family member, but I think what we can do is is just be there and be ready and not try to force a disclosure. for someone is ready, because the consequences can be. So enormous light, absolutely how when studying this in the world, because you ve been doing this with long, you been studying investment who one as has been for you will make.

First job was as a prosecutor and I handled child abuse and domestic violence and sex crime? yes, cases that was in Manhattan and now Now you know many years ago eyes, I a graduated from law school, mid days or to so ever since I've been thinking about these kinds of he says and thinking about the people who are victimized. What did it? What do you do this work? Was it a case that you're like this. It s not fair. This is under our people are going through here. You know not their fair justice. What was the thing that really said? I'm gonna fight for this would be as this Well, the domestic mounds cases that are handled from the very beginning were the most compelling to me, and I did feel like when people are hurt by those. They trust that that Jerry is just devastating in a way that that no other really is- and it said,

to me- that the system didn't respond very well to those kinds of crimes. People didn't really know what to make of it, and so I think that was the beginning of of thinking about this sustained What would like the common crimes? Are you see what were the faint? The themes I just kept happening where you're like this is unfair. The system doesnt work in the advance of someone who actually had something out of to them? What were those common theme here? That was just the expectation that we put on the victim to behave in certain ways. and then, when victims didn't, they would be penalized and they wouldn't get justice. So credibility with the loss of credibility for the emotional lashing out or sweet or what a poor not leaving rate staying in their relationship, not breaking it off. That in any mama. Why just stay right, and maybe it wasn't his badge, you thought round the same. You yeah

you didn't leave you didn't report right away, you didn't you, you didn't several all contact, answer these kinds of things or held against victims and they were unable to to get the justice they deserve. Let's say someone did leave this: they blocked the person they separate our contact and then they brought this to the courts. Would would they get there just Always it's still. They weren't credible that you see there was such barriers to believe really yeah. I think that cases involving children and cases involving women? Who are, leginn, sexual or domestic violence are some of the hardest to prove, because we too, I believe that its it so deeply threatening? I think, to the way that we think about our intimate relationships and the ways that we interact in the ways that we want to imagine gender relations. Then it's just destabilizing

so domestic violence, it's hard to believe that is, will resign like he beat me our she beaming it's hard for someone to believe that in the end, the court I think it's hard to believe that and hard not to blame the victim and hard for their pardon for their part in it it's not just like ok, he or she them and just hit you for no reason. Why do you want to just walk when his shoe the. How do we something that caused the argument. The stress trouble is there's nothing that can justify hitting someone, but that's what they would I ride like what you instigated. Are you? What were they scientifically yeah when it went? you do to bring this upon yourself. How did you do and each other? also this? This need to care about what happened, and I think that is important enough to if you're are sure to convict rate to act and so so. You ve gotta believe that you ve got it not blame the victim. and then, in the end, you ve got to care enough to do something about it

Otherwise it just goes on. Nothing is done. The robbery also have evidence right. There's got to be some type of evidence of what happened in those between what he said and she said right? Well, that's true! Right and every criminal case. These are hard to prove their beyond reasonable. Doubt is the standard of proven criminal. Word, and that's rightly, a high standard, but when it comes to these kinds of cases as a practical matter, it's even more difficult to pursue and of video footage spices. There's no video footage like what are we believe yeah. Credibility is at the heart of these cases and grew Lecter earlier question. I think that's when I really started to kind of focus on this as the central thread that runs through it. All credibility is everything is each side of assuming the case is trying to discredit the other person that tell you how it goes Now, let's get the facts straight: let's just credit the person, so their facts don't seem legit

yeah. That's our adversary system, right, that's how it works. That's you know that there are rules of evidence that the constrain what lawyers can do, but that's the guy That's that's how it's gonna go, and so I think what we ought to be a concern about or to sort of look out for is what works. What strategies work to win yeah. If a defense attorney gets up there and ask what were you wearing and that jury doesn't care than those questions are going to stop coming right? It's only if it works that those questions are going to keep calm An interesting has ever been cases. Have you seen of the ears were, someone who committed the crime is like you know everything this person saying is true. I did a hundred per cent of these things. My fault, I take full responsibility, you're right, I'm sorry giving my punishment

see well, when I was a prosecutor, defendants could plead guilty before trial. Net did often happen, and sometimes they plead guilty, because They didn't want to face a trial, sometimes anything they play guilty because they accept their responsibility, so can happen Olga of do the right is good source. Hooker and how many of these cases of these case Do you see that are manning as women and women, a guess man like where the victim is the man of the victim of a woman as it highly skilled well I'm sending me yes the vast majority of nine percent nine percent upwards of ninety percent to ninety percent of doors. cases of the other way there were a few

and those intended to be a little bit different and the way that the pattern of violence looked. But it is actually the case that women can be of Ireland, that men can be victims of female violence and male violence of heard of some men who have been assaulted, but don't have the courage to come out and about it or do anything cause. It's even more. In their might have shameful to not be handled than to be beaten by women. Have you it's like that something you ve started as well like just maybe men, not even talking about violence or the session, was conduct and thou wake as its letters just shame for, weak or whatever might be, that men might feel yeah. I think that that's that's very true. I mean in the thinking about why people don't come forward and we know that victims of pretty lay sexual violence will never will report silencing, is a huge problem and one

the reasons as the anticipated reaction of people? What are people gonna, say and if you are a man and you ve been assaulted. This is often I think gonna be on your mind is is am I going to be disbelieved or discredited, because the notion is that men don't get hurt us hormone I've or whatever judged embarrassed, yeah, and we should also say that in same sex relationships in there, there are different dynamics that that come up with these barriers to belief You talk about a thing called the credibility complex. What does that mean and ideas that were shaped by forces. We don't even realize it, but we're shape by these forces that impact how we think about credibility. We all want to believe that we're being fair and that were judging credibility in an unbiased way, but we live in this culture that shapes the way we think of. Credibility and our law shapes the way meaning about credibility and most of us,

don't even notice it. So I mean it's fascinating and I think really important to start to see these forces and start to kind of unpack? How we're thinking about credibility? So we can do better. so. How do we Swedes essentially rate the way our psychology thinks about credibility which has been around for thousands of years and was only a longer. We would have we reshape our minds about credibility that once this step for us to do that. Is it first with the law how it shaped or is it was human behaviour in psychology? I think it's gotta be culture. having an reforming law along the way when there are lots of places and our law that I think need to be changed, but the bigger task is to transform the way our culture imagines credibility and meets out credible. Judgments, but it sounds overwhelming and as we're talking

It can seem like we too big to make any progress, but I believe that each one of us actually does have the power to better and that's how we're gonna transform culture we do at present by person. We do it one credibility judgement at an ogre if you could show culture and this moment ever if you could what I want to say is going to change the way we think about each other as human beings and the credibility of one another moving for the law will shape around this. The way we perceive ourselves what shape around this, what would you say if you can snap, your fingers and people started the view things differently, what we need, We would need to start to hear more about people across differences. We would need shared humanity and realise that when someone has been hurt, it matters and be willing to disrupt

status quo in order to send that really powerful message that this survivor counts, that what happened is wrong and that has to change their has to some accountability in our lives and our formal systems than even just in the way that we Bert react with one another. We tolerate way too much abuse in our midst, and if we really care about this issue, we need to start making clear that it's not acceptable. All of us have a role in that You started the small business because you had a passion for pottery skill for software or a mine for manufacturing. necessarily for your know how of the business side of running a small business. Thankfully, that's what quick books is all the

providing new small business owners with the tools they need to feel confident from day one, because with quick books, if you can get paid, run payroll and know where your business stance from the start. So while you may not know everything when it comes to the business side of things with quick books, you can still get everything done for your business new business, no problem success starts with into it. Quick books learn more at quick books, dot com, quick books, payroll, quick books, payment and quick books online account required getting paid Two two days early with direct deposit is another reason: banking with capital. One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of decisions even easier. then deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with

fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts. Is it even a decision? That's banking, re imagined, what's in your wallet terms, apply see capital, one dot, com, Slash bank capital, one anais member F, the icy so. What is the? What could someone who's been sexually abused or doubtless sexual misconduct conduct? How should the approach community yet to be believed by their friends to be believed by their boss or co workers to be believed by family or society. Here. What would you say is like ok, an event happened that you're sexually abused or abuse in some way, and it was not ok. like you do what you need to do to stop it? You said now you knew what what are you trying to do you? It was clear that this was not ok, but it happened and the person did the obvious. What should be the next step for someone

How can someone listening there are watching this? What actions? So they take next warfare, that happened a somewhat. What did they say to their friends? They should do what part of the problem is that most of us don't really understand trauma. And we we see someone as being deceitful when, in fact their their impacted by trauma so I'll give you some examples from the sums Ford and doesn't have full and complete memory of breathing, often that's perceived as well. Why can't you tell me the story from a to Z, with every letter in between you try to protect her supper, brain protection, saddled with absolute unblock it out? Yes and neuroscientist are really clear about all the ways in which we really shouldn't expect a narrative to be linear and complete, but

Most of us aren't neuroscientist, and so, unless they have experienced trauma ourselves or we ve become educated about it, we might believe that someone is eyeing when they're not, and so that's really hard truth to hear if you're someone who has been traumatized right, because what are you gonna do about it? These are to have to prepare yourself for people not responding the we want them to respond I do think that were becoming as a society a little bit more educated about trauma and a little bit better versed in the idea that people don't always report. Right away and when they do, they may remember certain France, sensory. perceptions more than they do, let's say everything happened right there or everything that happened after. But if you're someone who's gonna come forward, I think you have to be in a sort of prepared for someone to say I wonder what why don't you,

or a beer sides, are the person lessening unit to do that right, you, you can be a person who learns about trauma and recognises that when your friend discloses to you it may not be the story that that you expecting to hear hear that person may be more emotional than you expect or maybe less emotional. Then you expected, That means that the person is lying. What this is interesting, because educated me under the legal system today, Gub more based on the story or actual facts of what has happened in a sinner in just the law in general is immoral. story. The shaped around office or the fights itself well. Was it ever Tiger Y yeah I mean we only. Can we get the facts through what what what people describe got and, if you're, a law enforcement officer? What you'd want to see is that

could be more evidence gathered that there were being corroboration of someone's account interesting but oftentimes that doesn't happen so hard it communicated than rights, it so hard to communicate a ban, and when than is sceptical and you're describing abuse. I think it becomes even more difficult. Assertive persevere, and so we put, these really really heavy burdens on survivors. Are we have these systems are just not responsive the way we would, I think, as a people of good will and good faith, we want them to respond right because- I'm just think. If someone was telling me a story, how do we come from all on an unbiased point of view to listen and not think like in our they elaborating this are the diminishing would happen. Is it because, when I know and passed when I felt stream hurt my stole my heart, I can elaborate sometimes

can a person I can be like you know this is, but what actually happened. This is facts and how I felt is the story around the facts. So how can someone communicated effectively to get justice? Is it like? It just seems like a message thing since far? It's really Massey there's a difference. I think between talking to like a police officer, prosecutor friend and a friend, and you know it, Think again, I hesitate to put more burden on the shoulders of survivors because their dealing with so much in the aftermath, but I will in that context, matters and who you're talking? who and what you want to get out of that conversation might impact what it is that you're gonna talk about How much detail you gotta go into and how much you're gonna Lena. the feeling side of it as opposed to that fact. Side of it got it. Ok, well just seems messy first virus.

It's rather throttle. I communicate this iron and be credible registry is messy. So why do we protect the abusers or the Used to either one, what do we protect those individuals over their survivors more I think one answer is that when we were asked to believe and account of an abuse and were asked to do something about it, that's difficult right were it's easier to do nothing and to just preserve the status quo, and sometimes we do that by saying it's a he says she said: there's is enough I can do I don't know what happened, but that's protecting the abuser interesting. It's not changing it and when nothing changes he's protected. So It should happen next, if it's a friend listening, is it do you? Do you approach the abuser?

as a friend or you just say, we need to go to the police right now. What should happen next? If it's a friend, listening trying to help you one thing is to realize: if Europe and listening or a family member listening your Standard is not beyond reasonable doubt you're, not a criminal court, jury you're, not sentencing someone to prison rates, that the notion that you have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt by something think his office and for people to realise that can be important because it than free what to say this is my friend asking me to support him or her. I can I can do that. I can be here and be a listener and support you in writing, and I think

the survivors I've spoken to over the years, that's really what they need, and that moment is to have that person say I'm here for you and I'm here to support you. Do you want? Do you want me to go to the police precinct with you to help you file report? Do you want me to help you find a therapist? You want to talk to someone whose professional do you just want to be idle talk to What? What is it that you need? I'm here for you should all accounts of. All levels or all accounts of sexual misconduct or physical abuse, to believe all levels ranges should be taken to the police. Or should they be only assert wants across a certain level You know, as I get once it happened so many times, and yet what should happen? I think there's a continue on there's a spectrum of of

gender based violence and sexual violence, and it's really me at those more severe and of the spectrum that we define something as criminal gotcha, and can you hear me that what is that reigns? Look like what's criminal! I was not criminal, so late friend dance, we, the criminal law, would prohibit sled, say sexual intercourse, sexual contact without consent, and sometimes also with force and encourage or sent back wooden prohibit what we might consider to be street harassment right, someone like talking nasty or flirting or whatever, and not not stopping, cause they may walking over someone talking to them going around the block same thing, Saint Gimme, your number, whatever they want to say something

have to be severe or protracted. Now someone, you know, Sir, was a stalker and continued. Then you could imagine it being a criminal matter, but their criminal law really deals with just the most agreed just conduct and short of that interests. We have workplace sexual harassment laugh. That's. You know something that covers employees, some employees, We have a lot of misconduct that isn't covered by law and that we have to deal with in different ways just what family friends and facing it had. This is not something in me:

Haider, gotcha, ok, so the laws sang without consent or with force. If that happens, you should be taking this to the police. We can take it to the police. I dont know if I'm in a position to town every survivor that that's the right course hookah, because our criminal justice system so often respond so poorly and what usually happens. If you take some of the points there was without consent happened with force what most of them others well univee. The arrest rates in depending upon the police Department of Jurisdiction are fairly low, so maybe twenty percent on average across the country that Russia and the rest of us let's go nowhere and along the way it can be, it can be difficult to be to be told.

I believe you or it was your fault. You were drinking, you know you were doing whatever or doesn't seem that serious and we're not gonna move forward like those are really difficult things to hear, and survivors often say that the aftermath is worse than war trawler, dubious, Tat they re living for months and months is more painful than moving on its way. when you don't have that that validation right when you don't have that officer or prosecutor or title nine officer, recharge ups are saying yeah this. This happened and it was wrong and I'm going do something about it. I'm gonna hold them accountable. If you don't have that, then you feel I think he can feel even more alone. do you know any cases of sexual misconduct conduct happen a year that are, I guess, counted. We know this from life of the courts

placed a balance. Now I'm in you'd have to each state has keeps its own statistics that, after all, these are the FBI keeps its own statistics. Everything is really disappointed, and then we also to remember again that most of it never gets reported. So we're seem like a tiny fraction when we look these systems were only single a little. It all comes down and credibility. Had a village called about whose credible, yes and you can have all the laws in the world? And yet, if we don't get credibility right, it doesn't really matter they. They don't mean anything really. So what do I guess a victim due to build credibility. Well, I know from people who are journalists, for instance, that one thing that they will often ask if their reporting on a story is. Did you tell anyone around the time or even if you didn't report to the police.

Did you disclose? Is there anyone in your or about who we can talk to who remember warriors? You tell me, or going back to our earlier conversation where their changes in your life that people may have witnessed. Read that in retrospect can corroborate the idea that something bad happened. Instead, there are ways to to go back in time. If, if you know somebody comes forward publicly or to the police only years after the fact, there are ways to kind of go back, but it's really difficult theme: how messy and complex This is so somebody happens to you should speak to a friend or to run away as one Harris I am. I am hoping that enough for people who have been victimize that take find someone in their life right who they trust to tell

about writing a letter journaling. Does that help to be like? I recalled and some things yeah, that's. You know that's another powerful. Of evidence if it ever comes to at raided. This is my diary, and so I wrote down. I wrote a letter I kept on account about its. That can be really effective, but it's also really difficult as you eight to relive all of that and to have to do that kind of processing so close to the incident itself. I think, as is, is often too to bear. I want. Do you think it so hard for people to leave relationships of violence or with the theme of these convicts,

These are misconduct. What do you think it so hard for someone to leave those relations after six months, ear years of being in Canada, same environment yeah, I mean so many reasons. There's may be financial dependence, maybe their kids and the next and this individual is at a decent seems like a decent parent on in its frightening to leave, because leaving can be the most dangerous time. and in an abusive relationship or there's still an emotional emotional connection, and often this is not at all the time and there are still love and their relationship there there are so many vulnerabilities that are at play here. and these lives are often really intertwined. In relationships that aren't abusive and that's true in relation to that, our abusive right. So

What can someone do so? It doesn't get to that place you now so that how cable? and in this environment I feel like man insists on until say when this happens, you know what maybe someone once every three to six months and my partner yeah lashes. Or does these things? How can they support themselves if they're not gonna leave? Maybe us My toss, a relationship to share, the relation so that those things don't happen again yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot to ask of someone who's in a relationship that is controlling which serve what me border describing and the violence. Isn't I'm going sporadic you know it's it's really hard to to get someone to change, and so

so I tend to think that looking out for these warning, signs is really important and and being able to sort of protect oneself, as best us is one can, because again, it's just going to be really difficult to try to put the burden on yours now, if you're in this relationship to change him, and what do you think a business are protected and general why they over there? years why they ve been protected well made to be entertained, have more power in our society, more staff more privilege, more authority. And more money or never absolutely we we veer off and we revere some of these mom, and you know we seen in the me to heroes. Some of them have been brought to some justice and the other condition of Harvey Weinstein and r dot. Kelly recently illustrate that we may be,

do better, but think of all of the years that decades and the many many victims before we were able to sort of do anything to hold these mental account and Michael Jackson as well. Even though you know nothing happened at all after many years, every death, one dogmatic him out, and he got away from trial right. He went to trial and got out. I think that's right, and these are revered. These are revered man, I mean they're sort of the donor believe zone. I don't know believe that they that they would be capable of vast and and you'd rather believe that either of these, these victims or can share their, which is that it The case is, there are certain cases where what an acute say didn't happen I mean, what are the victor victim saying that really happen

you know yes, and you know it is, it has to be said that false allegations occur raid and it would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise, but it happened much less frequently than people tend to think. Also like the best estimates, are around five percent Allegations of sexual violence are false, and if you ask like law enforcement officers or even just people on the street, what do you think that number is in our tends to be like a fifty, fifty or a majority, really a majority, while you think it's my five percent more, like five percent, their research suggests, while ok, powerful interesting. So why is someone like when you mention our Kelly wise because didn't have like a trial like back in the two thousand over eight or something, but then how do know what happens in this? All he was acquitted, he's gonna county front.

and I can two thousand something to cargo young, and this is probably after a year's or maybe decades of him yeah kind of buildings. So these young women I want documentary the series or whatever it is so I'm actually out of the loop. What happened recently Why did it take someone so long for this to happen when People knew what's happening for years when speaking about it for years, it wasn't just like a couple of girls who was like dozens and dozens. I guess so wise it takes so many people Finally, okay now will make something up so many people and the work of so many people surviving our colleague that Iraq is here is that yeah there? Our colleague campaign, that's crazy, and it was young women color who tend to be most easily cast aside and so This wasn't a case. I think where people didn't believe it was happening. We just didn't care enough to do anyway.

People kept buying, is music and hid according to journalists and the name of gender regattas, whose written about this for years and has done so much worked on cover this. He puts the number in the thousands of people who knew and just didn't care just let it What he had you know he had people around me: I'd bodyguards and drivers and managers and and people to look the other way. We should aim of energy. This is happening for decades right, yes, and all he was just convicted, I'm just convicted Brooklyn what we have here, a bracelet and what happened was a sentence, and I mean no one up, I'm not even aware he has not yet been sentenced, there's no sense gotta. He won't be sentenced him ten likely the rest of his life really so for decades, seemingly good men and women were aware of this, but didn't take action. So what I am hearing you say as a cultural thing. First, like we should just become better human beings

the people around us and not be a stand for this of someone. Is this happening someone's life? This goes back to the idea that we need to care more. We need, it took two fine, shared humanity and act. We see suffering in our midst, whether its sexual violence or any other kind of violence. It's you know it's not, ok, just to turn the other way are we are we work on not shifting blame onto victims. How do we or do we not blame and discredit? How do we truly listen to what they're saying the facts? Their feelings I believe, a hundred percent of their word and then being support. I do not blame certain. You know, certain kinds of scenarios are most likely to trigger blame, and so we can start by recognising, like oh dear intoxication, right that something That is an culture. We are very likely to sort of point the finger and blame shaft winners drinking too much.

Gosh you had one step, then I can trust you yeah, our it's your fault or newer. We could have left at any moment Whenever the yeah me, we sort of put this burn on victims, two's stiff to fend off the abuse and if they don't or can't they didn't fight hard enough or they were intoxicate or maybe they went back to his apartment and they were interested in doing something short of what and rape, and all of that is seen as sort of asking for it and it seems just say it out loud, maybe sounds kind of retrograde under our maybe people listening who think like. Oh, I wouldn't I wouldn't do that, but

so ingrained and asked that I think even people who think of themselves as being progressive and not falling into that trap. We just we just, I think almost instinctively start to ask: what did what did this person do and there's a psychological reason for it, like its protective to think that if we all bear here, the way we wish we're not gonna, get hurt. It's called the just world cereal and argued that this person will be a decent person, Do this, I'm assuming this person when I did that we're all gonna be safe. If we just do the right thing, we can keep ourselves safe, bad things only happen when people bring it upon themselves and like the world, would be a better place and it would be a safer place if that were true, it's not true, ok, so yes, it s interesting scenario. I'm not sure. If this happens a lot worse, like ok, will the

The victim went to the persons apartment. You he went there, you could have not gone there, but maybe they want to have some interaction that they wanted to go as far as it did in so damn becomes discord, while you were there, he could have laughed at any moment top of conversation right yeah, I'm part of a tragic is that this also gets internalized by victims, and so it's not just that other people are blaming and saying. Why did you go back? You didn't know him that well, are you ve been drinking, but the person who was hurt is very likely to ask those same quest lemon themselves. Yes, I was such an area, could have laughed at this moment of this one? They can just said this themselves. Yet, though, seem cultural forces are taken on board by survivors? This is messy it's difficult year, forty one people to know about this, and do you think it's important people debris

sharing their abuse stories publicly on social media on talking about their view stories, should they only addressing privately with the person that interact with their friends and family or to the law like how typical Hale is moving forward and get such a personal decision. I think it's not for anyone else to judge who someone chairs their story with on what terms when I do believe that kind of in this me to era that we're living and now it is becoming ease. You're not gonna, say easy. It's not easy. Still. Hard is becoming really hard. Shore, more accepted accepted the yes, that's there war stories that are being told a man and it can be really empowering and it can be validating Justin

always that way, and so I wouldn't want to be heard to say: hey everybody out there go tell your stories, it's gonna be great. It's not always great, be messy for many months. He might or remove the trauma and deal with a lot of that stuff to absolutely and because we don't have systems that deal fairly. With these kinds of allegations and because we in our daily lives, don't always do as well as we should survivors bear the brunt of it. For me, So if you could give some advice to, someone is dealt with this, whether we recently underpass and they haven't addressed it with a friend or family or or publicly or the police what would you say should be their steps moving forward? Is it called their? Is it tough, ran. What would you say more for they knew what they think about

whether there someone in either in your life or someone who you could call upon leg, a therapist like a councillor? Maybe a teacher who you trust to to begin processing this wealth? And maybe that's a first step, and you know- and maybe it leads to a formal lay down the road and- and maybe it doesn't but to be able to release this bird and that you're carrying if you can find a way to do that, you know, then, that that that probably will help on the path towards helping those four on hearing here. Maybe you won't get justice and whatever happened by your feel like like this, you have to wait for paying to travel. and at the same time, I think it's not it's not wrong to you, don't get to keep silent if that, if that's, why

you can do right now. That's all that you can do is not for anyone else to judge that silence, and I think that we in the in the sort of me to moment. We want to be able to say everyone should should tell their stories, and I just want to be careful to say that what's right for one survivor may not be right for another yeah, so just because someone sign you need to share. This probably doesn't mean you have to have you know yeah I mean one of the women. I spoke to further book, described being criticized for how she shut her story, her friend people in her friend group too. I think that it was appropriate to do it. The way she did at and modern social media- and so you know dear sir, have to expect that it be reaction, may not be what you want it to be and edit

when you're feeling vulnerable and when you need the support of your community to get the opposite is brutal, so just be mindful your share with first sure someone you feel like a judge, you are shame. You are put you down a safe confidant to speak with worth their pistol, confidential, therapist and then forget your next from their areas what are we to hear when we go through this book credible, why we doubt accusers and protect abusers aloud If you are someone, who's experienced abuse and you ve come forward and had a horrible aftermath or and aftermath that was less than what you want and you didn't get the response from the people. You turn to think you'll understand better. Why that happened? When you read the book, if you haven't come forward

understand more. Why you ve been silence and how the credibility complex can silence you, love if you're someone who either has an allegation of abuse from your coworker. Your roommate remain family number or you're gonna hear that allegation, because we are now in this time stories are being hauled read, the book will help you'd deal and find more fairly and in, and I think the way that you'd want to respond and away that's, not biased and the doesn't reliant misunderstandings about trauma and the way victims behave, but is more accurate and more informed. beginning it, then someone somewhere is listening that having dealt with any such must conduct themselves, should they get it for them cells to be educated, or is it

for? Someone has been endowed with a bake them whose gone through some everyone should get the book, because you know frankly, most people purse, especially women than men as well, have experienced some kind of sexual violation. In the past and it may not be on the severe side may not be criminal, but it's something that makes all of us. I think, relate to the experience of many of us. most of us and then the rest of the people out there who are listening, who may be can't relate to what it's like to be a victim and come forward. Are gonna hear from when they love and are going to want to do right by that person eventually in the future. I think this statistic remembering one in four women have been sexually abused. One in six men about session abused there's a resource for man, one in six dot, org that helps men on pack and figure out how to deal with the shame and come forward, and

There's a resource line there. You can call people at one in six dot, Org, I'm not sure the best places for women, Have you ever resource, I ever resource page on my website about one in six organization, is on the resource. Page rise, well, greater resolution. And your website, which are not the problem in our social media, but your website Deborah. Does your name Deborah Turk, armor right at that? Ok if we go there will make it up. There may share one has access to that, we're going You on social media here servants ass, my goal so forty somewhat as I said earlier, make an account for you and put the both called credible. Why we doubt accusers and protect abusers of aids, extremely time timely right. our there may, as happened in all the different series, in many areas that are coming out you can learn more. Why certain who have gone away with these same for years. Why our society it allowed certainty.

To get away with these things for years and not held a higher standard and how we can start a ship that around for the butter so I ve knowledge Deborah for before for doing the work been doing for so long and being passionate about trying to find justice for people that don't find us that are going through a really challenging time Whether there is a criminal act against them, just something that was just they didn't want in other. They didn't want that. Wasn't criminal figure out how to be heard. Seen acknowledged how to heal that process. More for because I know it can for some extremely sky for the rest of your life until they learn how to release the trauma until they learn how to communicate effectively, which extremely hard to do because, as I know, you study with therapists psychologists, neurologist

the brain kind of blocks. These trauma to protect us so learning how to unblock and let it go and a healthy way is a very powerful thing to do as my therapist tells me healing, is not an event. It's a journey. It takes time. as you say, something one time doesn't mean your heels, and everything is good. This may take years decades for people to fully release, unlike so acknowledged for during the war during the research can be a valuable voice, even it. social media, but being a valuable voice in putting this resource out. They're here I encourage you to be our social media, star, sharing more I've, seen some videos and my site. If you too are doing more, and it is on this so we can go to your website. We can get the book there when you get it on Amazon. How else can we be of support to you with this message, and I appreciate everything you said and I

to put put everything into the book as you, SAM passion, about this, I believe we can do better. The book is written, not in upcoming, pointing fingers way and not in a way to suggest that you know people are bad out Furthermore, the day they want to hurt victims are protect abusers, not at all it proceeds on the assumption that we all want to do right and we want a world in which sexual abuse happening and so in my hope, is that people well read the book and make changes in there, daily lives. That's how we change culture, we don't wave a magic wand and and remake our culture overnight We make our law overnight, but each one of US

we that we interact with the person who are closest to can can make the world better. One international Darwin with the family with France does not to be left to the world, but one friendship this a question I asked everyone at the end of our interview is called a three truths. So imagine it's your last day on earth, the hypothetical scenario and you've accomplished all of your wildest dreams and goals. Everything's come true for you professionally before them reason all the work. Have created this book in all the messages you put down to the wrong? They have to go somewhere else. We don't, alas, is to them anymore, they're gone from this world, or in some other world. We have access your content anymore, but you get to leave behind three lessons to learned. Three things. You know to be true from your experiences in life that you'd want to leave with us. This is all we have to remember of your message. What would you say, those three truths?

I'm gonna start with. People are complicated and imperfect. And so what we can do is find shared humanity and show show grace be generous when we interact with our fellow human beings. That's that's one. My second truth is integrity is essential and we will always make mistakes and will fall short, because going back That first truth were imperfect, but we can act with integrity. We can be true to our selves and are our values and our commitments, and that seems to me to be at the core of sort of what it is to be a good human being, and then I get one more truth, ok I'll, say.

anger can be channeled towards change. And that when you see and justice in the world or unfairness or inequality or someone who's hurting someone whose suffering and it makes you mad or indignant, are frustrated or maybe you feel that way, because you yourself have been wronged, you can harness ed and you can you can make, in the world. It s easy for good. Absolute shall younger for something more meaningful, then just hoary on the anger. I love that, everything else. We can do to support you before the final question. I feel very supply and a greater how much energy is out there. I appreciate it. Ok, Deborah. The final question is what your definition of greatness, I'm gonna, say doing or being.

In ways that transcend self interest and elevate, the good of another person or other people. That's greatness, to replace a lock appreciated. Thank you say that Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it and you want to dive into another similar school, Britain's episode check out the links in the podcast description done more than nine hundred fifty episodes of the past seven years, and I want to bring you more inspiration just like this you ve been choosing for lucky winners. Each week like many from TEL Aviv, Israel Kelsey from Toronto, Canada, Roberto from California, and so many others- that's right. They each one at twenty five dollar gift card to Amazon,.

Here's why I need your help to get to know you better, so I create a short and simple survey. All you have to do is fill out a quick question, air at Louis how's, dot, com, slash survey and that's it it'll only take a couple of minutes, but it will go a long way towards helping me and this pod castor view at the high level possible, and I thank you for completing it. I am choosing for new winners every week to get at twenty five dollar Amazon gift card, so go to Louis House, dot com slashed orbit to feel it out. Now I'm excited to get to know you guys, even more and better serve you in the best possible way. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness, make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show, with all the important links and also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys to share a review over on apple, and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most and if no one's told you

Lee. I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter and now it's time to go out there and do something great.