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This is episode number one thousand one hundred and eighteen with DR ethan cross welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help. You discover how to unlock your inner greatness thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin gandhi said happiness is when what you think what you say and what you do are in harmony and Carl Jung said until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. My guest today is dr ethan kross, who is a psychologist author and professor at the university of michigan, and he is one of the world's leading experts on controlling the conscious mind and in his new book chatter, he explores how the silent conversations that individuals have with themselves impact their life from their health or performance to decisions and their relationships, and in this episode we discuss and dive in deep on how to control and engage with thoughts when they enter your mind. How to not let your negative thoughts define you and hold you back the daily practices to help you improve your mental health, the benefits of mentally time traveling. Yes, you can travel time in your mind and how to shift the inner monologue. You experience into productivity and confidence instead of insecurity. I'm telling you this is going to give you so many practical strategies to help you improve the quality of your mind and the overall performance of your life and, if you're enjoying this at any time, make sure to share this with someone that you think will be inspired by this as well. That would give them one practical tool to help them improve the quality of their life, just copy and paste the link wherever you're listened to his podcast or go to Lewis Howes, dot com, slash one one, one eight and you can share that, show note with your friends and people on social media as well and also make sure to click the subscribe button over on apple podcast or spotify right now. So you can stay up to date with the latest and greatest from the school of greatness, podcast. Okay and just a moment, the one and only doctor Ethan cross.

This package is sponsored in part by skill, share, not constantly pushing myself to grow and learn new skills, and one of my favorite ways to do this is through skill share their an online learning community that offers membership with meaning skill share empowers you to accomplish real growth. My reasoning took his skills, your class from gravy on social media strategy in a noisy world, and I learned so much he's always talking about the lace and greatest strategies to grow your audience to get attention and to cultivate a community. There are tons of other topics to explore through skill share beside social media marketing and you can dive into classes on creative writing, productivity, freelance and entrepreneurship, and so much more practice makes progress. Advancing towards the goal is achievable with short lessons and hands on projects. Skill share is incredibly affordable, especially when compared to pricey in person, classes and workshops and annual subscription is less than ten dollars a month. Explore your creativity at scale shared dotcom, slash, greatness and get a free trial of the premium membership. That's skill share dotcom, slash, greenest, free free trial of the poor,

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every day in that's it no need for a million different pills and supplements and to make it easy athlete agrees, is going to give you a free one year, supply of immune supporting vitamin d and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athletic greens, dot com, slash as Oji again that's at let it green dot com, slash s, oh gee, to take ownership of your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Welcome back and wanted school greatest, I'm very excited about our guest ethan cross, in the house for talking about chatter you're, one of the leading experts psychotic in the world talking about controlling the conscious. And and I've always set as an absolute from ohio. The great state of ohio there we're gonna get out of it. I have I've always said that our thoughts really dictate the comes of our life, it's the beginning stages of what we manifest, what we attract, what we

what we alchemists yeah. If we think positive, more vision base higher level thoughts. We usually outcome is that in our real world we manifested and if we think, a lot of negative consuming thoughts, darker thoughts, we typically attract type of environment as well? Now this has been talked about as woo world pause thinking negative thinking, but now you're, bringing in some amazing research talking about the voice in our head and why it matters. Can we talk about Is it really possible to control the conscious mind? Is that even more or a thoughts always going to be coming in and out without our ability to control them well great question to kick us off and so here Break it down, we can't always control what we can control the thoughts that pop up in our head. So we don't know why I'm going to

walking down the street and all of a sudden just have a really dark thought about this, or you know a positive thought about something else. We don't have control over the thoughts that pop but we do have control over is how engage with those thoughts once a surface soccer and and we have a lot of control there. We can choose to immerse ourselves in the thoughts and you know if we immerse ourselves in the positive thoughts that can be great like when I'm you know. I'm out here in now. I I'm away from my kids in my family. walking down the shore. I'm thinking about my my youngest daughter, who tried to time me this morning at thirty in the morning and thirty, it brought happy Yes to me, just thinking about how how cute that was and you it was inappropriate but cute at the same time sure I immersed in it. You know also choose to distance myself from my thoughts or or challenge my thoughts. So there's a range of things we can do when thoughts pop up so and that's where the control comes in

as we were mentioned a little bit earlier, we don't get taught systematic way, how to manage our thoughts in this way, and I think that's a problem. It's one of the reasons why why I wrote the book if somewhat if someone is asking themselves, you know what I think I am. Are we our thoughts, our thoughts, something that don't define us well in. I think this is another import a high that we can we can. We can give because thoughts are our mental and are things that pop up in our head, whether they define us or not depends on whether we allow them to define us. and what does that look like when we allow it to? We can be strategic about that so allowing myself to to think of myself as someone who all the positive features gear right, so someone who has is it

Actually curious is a good friend has humility, I allow those thoughts to define myself. I think that they are fairly accurate portrayals of who I am those thoughts are constantly being tested in my life right, because I'm getting feedback when I interact with people. When I go on different kinds of events and people, you know say things like that- informs whether that that, understanding of who I am is in touch with reality. I think we want to have that, but other of thoughts like self defeating ones good enough- and I know that this manuscript was rejected or ice. I really put my foot in my mouth. I put my foot right off all the time, but I can say hopefully won't happen during this conversation, but if I allowed myself to be defined by my by my foot in the mouth, full pause, I would be. I would not be

happy individual. So I'm I'm I'm uh, there's agency there. There is a choice to to attack the some cognition some thoughts and not others. So is it about attaching an identity to the thought is saying this is who I am and being and where is I'd, get any plan to that. Then, where is out aloud? Ok, I am this is opposed to. This is something I think, but it's not who I am yeah. So it's about you can you can internalize or externalize kinds of experiences happen to us right and so people who tend to be more optimum take as an example the colonel eyes, the positive but externalize the negative. What I mean by that is they'll take risks. The ability for positive thing are going on, but they'll are. Responsibility for the negative thoughts about the situation now to do that to an extreme right so

let's say you're, you know you're at work and and things aren't going well, do do need to experience some negativity? It's not always someone else's fault like sometimes it is going to be your fault and owning that can be quite useful, one thing I often tell people is that emotions aren't the thing that we should be trying to avoid. We evolved that the capacity to experience negative emotions for a reason they provide really useful information. He's managers hasn't one of the best examples of this is their choice, who are born into the world each year with the inability to experience physical pain, so its agenda liquor canton punch face, you, don't feel it. You don't feel fear. I stabbed with a knife. You don't philip had really did you know polymorphism, my profits in the ring born you don't really do not feel the pain right. So it's a

There is a mutation at a quirk of genetics and you can feel the pain happens to these children is die young girls, they're, not they're, putting here the fire there. You not head over and over again got it so pain is useful in small doses, it's really helpful that if I put my hand on the fair on the flame, I pulled away the paying the negativity is what makes at such an amazingly adaptive respond. So, let's go away from extreme examples. Five got a big foremans coming up a big event, thousands of people and a couple weeks before that the whispers Steven Spielberg talks about these is whispered in his ear. Oh, my god, he had not found of people. You ve gotta, give it little bit of anxiety bubbles up, really useful cause you know what happens then I stopped working on the presentation to prepare

tivity negative emotions in small doses, elegantly adaptive when the negative emotions become harmful become more chronic and that's what address all about when we periods and negative emotion, and then we get stuck in it we get so immersed that we start looping over and over and over again, that's not good. and that's you know, that's a pain point that I think so many people suffer from and where I think the science can be really helpful, because we know there are things that people can do in athens to manage it. You're one of the leading experts in controlling the conscious mind where's the biggest challenge you face in your personal mindset, even though you practices tools, teach these tools. What's the chatter that still holds you back well thank you for asking this. I dont experienced chatter, unlike, of course at exeter, I'm a human. Actually, we ve done research and what we know is that people in general are much better

add advising others that they are following their own advice. We actually there's a name for this phenomenon, called solomon's paradox named after the bite was king solomon, who was famous, for being wise. But if you read his story, he was not wise when it came to his own life, he had concubines and they all got in fights and his whole kingdom, about this truism that I can tell. Lots and lots of other people how to manage their chatter and here's what the science says, but that doesn't mean. I never struggle with it myself, I like to think I'm pretty did it, but I still experience blips of chatter, the domains that I experience it more Lee about the well being of my kids and my family and I can work something happens to them. If the world stops

and it's easy to start going down that rabbit hole and it's going to be stress. What are we happier? They cannot you know where they going to be sick or they going to let you know, do well in school and night. Catch myself experiencing than chatter. I I bonanza by using the tools that are in the book and other other tools that are out there so, but Certainly I mean I can experience a work related chatter. You know big big thing coming up a big paper that gets rejected from I know that's a currency and, in science, like you, do these experiments for years and years and years you spend, time, writing them up, and then you you, you submit them, and then people say no, not so good, really, yeah, that's not fun. I mean rejection, isn't a great feeling how to someone deal with rejection from the chatter of rejection and the fear of rejection. Even before they put something out there, he said they want to launch a book is

he too would ever it is a paper, but their soft frayed even put it out there because of the rejection. That Come verses you put it out there and its birth jetted yeah how manage both of those yeah, actions of chatter well, so one idea that I really do believe very strongly in is that there are no single tools that work for all people across all situations. We often hear like do this in its going to read you of exile. I've been doing research on this for twenty years. I have yet to find it. I be curious if you have in all the interviews and research that you ve done to me pills. I have yet to find them, but what I have found are lots and lots of tools can often be used in combinations to help people I think both of those situations lend themselves well to using from charitable. So take the concern about being rejected.

If that were me, and it was holding me back from doing something one I would do is I would I do something called mental time apple or more in technical terms, calot temporal distancing, I think to myself about you know, how many other situations have been lying yes and have I been? Have I actually have that in the past yeah like what are the rates like? Let's do some reality testing and when I do- Well, you know not too many. In fact, just just a weeks ago, I had a big presentation and it was like the prep this presentation is virtual. designed to stress me: Because, first, that the producers said I want you to. We want you to strip this and just record it, and I never. I never memorized talks. I just like to speak, but I did it.

I sent it to them, and I well, the lighting isn't going to do it again now and then and then at the other twelve hour, just do it. so you know that their push in all my buttons and I a little bit of chatter, beginning to brew proven I just remind us Ethan. giving yourself you ve, given literally hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of presentations. They've, never tanked in a in in a terrible way realization. So looking at that broader perspective, the bigger picture really useful. The other thing I would do is, if you were listening carefully, but when I just simulated when I just went over when I did before I use my own name to kind of code. myself through the third person, president distant, we called distant self talk and and that's another tool that I think is personally really useful talk about this too. There's a lot of data behind this.

We know they were better at advising other people that we ourselves right. I guess not, I don't think, controversial simple. You pushed back if you think it is, of course yeah. It's like you know we stay in relationships far too long and when we know we should get out of them. tell someone else you need to get out of that thing. It doesn't look good. Will will do certain things to hurt ourselves over and over will eat the food we're not supposed to eat. We'll do all these things, but we can tell someone else. You need to stop doing exactly so. Here's what I find mine Glowingly fascinating we have we have laws. So is a big big, big amp up, I better deliver here. We we've learned that there are ways that we could with ourselves like we were engaging with someone else, and language is one two we can use to do it and involves our ourselves through a problem using our name and others like Second person pronounce words like you.

if you think about when we, when do we use names and second person pronoun you think about jennifer. most the time I use names, it's addressing other people are thinking about other people, so like laura. What she doing right now, my wife danny without using names names in our brains like this currency of thinking about others, so what happens when you use your own name to think about a problem, it's it's like a psychological jujitsu move. It's automatically switching your perspective and allowing you to start engaging with yourself advising yourself like someone, what happens when we don't do that when we are just, I mean, I'm horrible, I'm stupid iowa can't do this, I'm never enough for get myself out of this, when we speak from I as opposed to Louis you got this you are good enough yeah. So what how we come from I. So I is a

signature of being immersed in the experience and and that can lead us down the rabbit hole of rumination and worry and you use your favorite descriptor. I called all that chat ruminations when you're when you're Spinning about the past worries spinning about the future in case your spinning you're, making a shelf knots? I may my. chatters, all about being so zoomed in on the problem. You can't think about anything else. What does he use? I am in a powerful sense. I am able to get through this. I am confident I put in the work. I am loving yeah that would that'd be supportive, or is it better to still say Lewis? our are loving louis. You are kind louis! You got this yeah, so I mean in others the positive affirmations, there's there's mixed evidence on them. They could be useful in some cases, but less useful, but not useful in others. I would

I would suggest trying the trying coach yourselves through the problem using your name, because what it does it's like a mental time out rights, letting you step back from the situation broadening your perspective, we broaden our perspective? We often realize that there's a lot more the situation. Then What are now then? What's making us lunatic temporary, very technical dear by the way, only drew fraser. Your most unit, we'll talk, nato that you can't get out of here, spinning in a loop area likely you can't get out of so what about you mention positive affirmations that there might be some resource that supports it and yet in contradicted, in the world of personal growth and personal development, positive affirmations. The thing has been a standard. probably I dunno fifty or one hundred years yeah What is the science of positive affirmations saying currently well

self affirmations. This idea that I am a good human being I am worthwhile There is some evidence that that can be useful, but other studies that don't show benefits not backfires, but there's just some variability in in the real world. Your saying, I'm in paris Integrity right. You know, and there's probably a disconnect if you're saying a positive affirmation but you're not actually being it right. Well, I think that gets to like a very profound issue that that is useful to talk about here, which is. in a lot of the work that we do on on trying for? How can you help people who are spending work through it? You're getting to engage in work through that problem. aren't even hagen, a man whose situation is a situation where you gonna do we're not making it I like to joke we're not when we have people distance in that way or use other techniques and tools, we're not

transforming the situation into the the culinary equivalent of cupcakes and warm cups of tea, and I don't think You that that means we're not making this negative thing into a remarkable positing were turning the trip, the temperature down allowing people to manage this aversive situation in ways that allow them to then move on. It's not possible to take something that is totally negative and make it an extreme positive, and I don't know that we would always want to do that really because you know. Learning from mistakes can be really really helpful. Like I value, isn't there a way to learn from the mistake and not let it consume your energy and that's exactly what we try to do exhausted something I learned in the last couple years that I wasn't good at this until about two years ago and the more I practice it. I have found this tech. Maybe there's a term for this tool that you have,

found this technique to be extremely life changing for me.

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We got our ex is not insurance, but it can be used instead of insurance, medicare and medicaid in two thousand and twenty one good rx users saved eighty one percent or retail prescription prices. You talk about the. Mental time travel is that you mentioned time mental time travel look back to see how you overcome something when I'm going through challenging situation is now especially something that happened a few years ago. There was a challenging situation. I was like man, this sucks, this really sucks, it wasn't fun for a few months. I remember saying to my the only way that I can get out of it without feeling like pain every day and feeling like taken advantage of and abused, and all these things was to say This is happening in my favor in one year, two years, five years, ten years out, I'm going to back and realise all this happen, so that I could do this in my life so It could have a better experience, my relations, so that I can be a better leader in my business yeah, somewhat site few.

In the time traveling totally just saying telling myself over and over this is happening. My favorite! This is happening to support. greater mission in the future I think that way. I'm like okay, I can handle this yeah so so what you described is not deplete. That's not a positive affirmation right like and in that situation and get it. That's the only thing that sometimes posit its. If we're dealing with true adversity It's almost. It feels inauthentic to just say: everything's gonna be right. Well, you're, describing is exactly mental time. Travel temporal distance! It temple distancing is the is cited. Retirement algeria dorky turn my throat in there and have it sorry, I get in rural distemper old distancing. Yet what does temporal mean temporal time? So distancing through time. the need to do that in the past or future or the seizure so take over right, which has been, I think, tough for many of us, myself included writer,

people distancing may want one. If I wanna be funding stuff, a missionary and bitter I was waiting before I went on extremely good. Don't you worry about these? We have more time eggs. I will get some digs of their actually lacks a beautiful sooner than we do at the nice. Just so you know four hundred and forty four covid nineteen thing. One thing I've done several: I use like I'd like a cocktail that I cocktail. I take of tools that I use mental tools rikers. We actually done some research on Combinations of tools are particularly useful, but for covered, I think, about this You, like five months from now we're going to be vaccinated, we're to go on vacation, the the the worst part of this will be over. When I do that, I realize that as awful as what I'm going through right now is it's temporary. It's going to fade, we will get back. That gives me hope

Hope is a powerful way of alleviating chatter. Then I'll go back in time to and I'll think about it. Of nineteen eighteen, which was much much worse than what we're going for scarier, probably much scary. We didn't have the medical technology we didn't have zoom. We didn't take out right like much. I mean take out, you know joke, but it makes a difference for so so we didn't just get we even it was worse. We got through that and became warring back like the roaring twenties economic growth through so in each feud in future. asked, I'm broadening my perspective getting me away from. Oh, my god, and get through another day in this. It's it's no way out. It's distancing and it's a very useful tool. So you call that temporal distancing, yeah or mental time travel. Mental time travel. It's like

we need to have mental floss on a daily basis, as is unaware of him up for and how most of us were not taught these tools from our parents from our friends from teachers in school, because they weren't training us to teach us and this is what I love about. Your work is As you talk about the preventative mental training, the preventative mental health- I don't know what you call it but waiting to your anxious and depressed and feeling overwhelmed needing to take a drug to calm your mind, but these tools on a daily basis. Would you say our three to five? I think that we can do on a daily basis, simple strategies. He had started to help prevent our mind from taking over and care, so we ve already were to send us a go through those thirty three, more that a distance of talk and a mental time java. Let

shift to another category. The the the way that I like to like. Simplify this whole universe of tools. There are three buckets things you could do on your own way Reframing the situation, simple tools that shift how you think that you refrain that can be useful to both tools. We talked about are examples of that, in another category, are what we might think as people tools, ways of interacting with That can help us out. What's, let's go the go to the third Tools are really interesting to me, because Hey I'm a social psychologist, so I care about how we interact with one another when it comes chatter there There are some myths out there, so we now have some myth busting right now, so when people means chatter. There often Hensley motivated to talk about with other people, to share their emotions to get help and support. There are a couple of options, chatters around things that we experience, shame or embarrassment about. Then we don't want to talk, but all

the things we vents we vent. We want to find someone, let just let me unload in our exactly rabat, unloading on our friends or family. Well, it's complicated and I'll. Tell you what it doesn't do it doesn't help us work through our chatter and it can even make it worse. By venting to someone. This happened or whatever this person did this and complain about it. You're saying it could make it worse. Why say you're right or well. So let's say you say you you and I minus the geographical differences that we share, we're friends right. So let's say I call you up and hey I'm really struggling to. I just I need your Let me help you out, so you start asking me questions about what happened. I start sharing what I felt and we keep going can forth that makes me feel really good about our friendship. I feel the close and connected with you and we, it shows that when you vent that's true athens. Friendship me, but

If all we do is harp on what happened and what you felt in technical terms, cole rumination what we just ruminate together. I leave that conversation and I'm just does upset is when I start it like that still I'm just throwing throwing logs on a burning fire you're, just keeping any going you're right, so so hey great for our friendship, but I still got the problem. I'm having, like you, know, gastric distress over there s right, our politicians reva, so so, instead, the basque of conversations. When it comes to managing chatter, they actually do two things. You do need to connect emotionally with someone else. There is value and, via the size, readily important right, but point in the conversation the person you're talking to ideally help. You broaden your perspective, you

anita. They look at the big picture. How he dealt with this in this get me to mentally time. Travel help put this in perspective. That's a signature of a great conversation? Listen. listen deep, lessening empathize, and then would you, Okay, would you like my feedback or support suggestions like the weight that UNESCO k off you, like totally you if you want to keep going or can I offer you some of it and ask genuinely because I'm a scientist, but but in the end, in the chapter. When I talk about, they tell us as being an art and there is an art to this dance right. It's a dance has different people may need more time to just vent before they're ready to get into that advice, giving and receiving mode right, and so some some people are there ready for it right away. Others may take some time may depend on the situation. If it's a really

clear chatter event right like then, you may need to spend some more time. listening and talking before you can go, but but the you did. It is exactly what we want to do, but it's just that orientation is. very different from he, let me just vent, there there's a really important take home lesson here for for people who are listening. Because if you know that there are these two pieces to getting good chatter support from others that lets us be more deliberate about who we seek out for support right. So, as mentioned before, I've got a board of advisors. When it comes to chatter and the like three people, I go to for personal problems and for forfeits professional work, related issues and these people who I know there, they will empathize and connect, but then also really We try to work through the problem

and what's interesting about the people on on those two different boards some people who love me a lot and I love them back, and I know this for a fact, because, like dna determines a close family members right. I don't one them about my chatter, because I know it doesn't it doesn't make it We just get stuck venting and I didn't it doesn't help. So I'm really careful about curating who I go to for support and then on the flip side, because I know this science, I like to think that I can be at our chatter adviser to my two others in my friends and colleagues and students when they come to me, I shall like it a little playbook that tells me like here's, how here's? How can help and it's not complicated right. Two steps right listen, deeply, empathize and connect and then start reframing. So. and you you'd. If you're reframing, would you go to the distant self talk as a coach yourself?

sincerity distant or would you go to the time travelled like look you ve already you ve overcome this in the past, I thought I'd, I'm I'm I'm thrown out different opinion souls, because what we know well from the science One of you so twenty six different tools. I talk about the book. We know each of those tools operate individually. We don't yet know is they combine for different people different situated in a great how they integrate we're doing science. On that now the challenge in the adventure for people who are listening is to start doing some self experimentation on their own figure out. What's the combination that works for you so daughter, if she comes to me with like some chatter at at school, this girls being mean, and this boy I have a crush on, but so does my friend I IRA all this stuff that that you asking about chatter triggers for me, my daughter

stating that is our she. That is a chat or trigger she she's twelve, oh yeah. Well, what he had will ya the world. Yes, the address is this: is this? Is a major programmes or self rigour for you? Have I heard it is any, and my wife helps me. Look at the big picture, but the big picture that scenario. Well, you know we all went through this. You dated is well- and you know, there's it's like it's part of life and then the you know she has good judgments and- and you gotta make her own mistakes and she, by the way, is going to The fact that I am talking about dating life and dating is too strong, but sure sure sure so, crushes or crushes. We won't mention any names I'd. Rather, if we did, I would then have serious cheddar because I wouldn't be allowed back in my house or whatever, but I'll just say what I would do with my daughter. If she keeps me with a problem, I'd say What whatever triggered you personally

and she wanted your advice, porter cheddar, your chatter, edward jenner, and I talk then I hand off to my wife or I I can pretty regular? I can use it so that there you'd want to use the tools on yourself and then once you're in the position to someone else. You got yourself under control, then you work with with the other person. I was so hey. What would you tell your sister if she was the overseer or your friend, like you coach, someone else, how'd. You could tell us that addressed coach move to make don't give them. The answer asking I shall and how they would do with someone else yeah let them figure that out the discovery that the powerful move. Haha do other things too, like you know that the third bucket that We measure, like the environment, like that, world around us has their tools.

Just in the world around us and they just waiting there and that sounds kind of corny. But it's the truth and solid. A couple examples like green spaces there's been a ton of cutting edge, neuroscience research, which shows that spending some time in a safe natural setting? will the need to say safe, because I, where I grew up in brooklyn? screen saver synonymous with getting mugged. So you don't. It has place where you can let your guard down relax, relax in nature, it allows it gently, draws your attention away from the chatter allowing you to recharge in ways that are really really helpful nature also can give us a sense of of which is a underrated, emotional experience, because it helps us fight, chat or so Ah, this is an emotion we experience from where the presence of something something vast we can explain in order.

People experience are its when oh hi ends come, the big house in Michigan and they should sit under there in the stadium largest. I think its larger than a couple of little bare and they and they they just take it over. There filled with awesome news as all right and then there are morons barred when they beat michigan. So you got me. that that leads to what we Our experience in our needs told the cost shrinking of the south. We hear me, experienced a moment of beauty a sporting event, whatever it is, a musician perform something someone doing something great or nature in its element we then what can our mind it leads we feel smaller and it usually is not a good thing, except when you're feeling experiencing chatter, our problems because you realize hate you know, hey dough,

What are you? Are you worried about the thing you said last night at dinner like there's a whole, universe out here here that that is bigger than you. So it's like the ultimate way of broadening your perspective. And and and helping. You realize that you know what you're going through, whilst all singing, if again, there's more to it, there's more to life than this yeah, and I know you caught a darren harrison. There was a buddy of mine as well, and for me, a and bold, ten or fifteen minute meditation practice the morn evening afternoon for me going to a place where, in my mind, I leave my body, I leave the world in a space. can see the world from a different perspective that is so small and therefore my problems get smaller that's exactly the phenomenon when I when I, when I in my mind, imagine myself in the universe floating which is kind of weird, I get get it

What it allows me it'd be like. Oh, the earth is so tiny. I can see it like a speck of sand yeah and then I can It's so far away from where it disappears, yeah, unlike its what there's so much out there, worrying about this little problem and making it consuming my mind all day for what that's exactly it's important to me and it's liberating to have that that orientation and you know I want to come back to meditation, because that can be a way of of cultivating. These states what you described there. You because fly in the wall. To yourself, and what we know is that there are these strategic move. You can engage in to help you that meditation is one. There are other things that you could do in the moment. Simply what else you are like, like you know. Well what mean lange that's another ethan. What's goin on you're becoming an observer to yourself? It's not me some one else right or left

everything yourself beaten. What's going yet silently by the way, not I've got a lot of it. Airports make it easier if you wanted to do that as it may take I still wouldn't recommend that and when you visualize, like, we often see experiences, aren't we think in terms of words, but also in terms of images and picture. So probably ask you to think about a time in your recent ass when you, you got angry, and ass. You have a mental snapshot of that. You could probably see that here actually tat we can manipulate the imagery, and so, I could ask you to replay it happening through your own eyes when you got into a fight- or I could ask you to- float away and see yourself in that event like into, in fighting with that, other person is becoming a fly on the wall to your own experience. Yes and that's another way of doing what what you just described, which is zooming out and then like hey, there's more to and ass long. I love this other person. This

is phenomenal phenomenon that it's phenomenon, but when I heard him say it really made me think differently no doctor jones spencer, if seen his work at all My question I said you know: should we all be focusing on healing the the the promise for the memories of the past. You say yes heal the memory of the past, but really start to remember the memories of the future in point your memories, now of what you could create in the future, can start putting your area towards that opposed to the pain of the past. It will be thinking about the past. Should we be thinking about the future or just being more present in your mind

these are deep, deep declarations, socal, I'm so glad you asked them actually allows a school of average. This isn't as this is where we're not in michigan right now, and I want to be the school- let's say so. You know, let's Let's start with being in the moment. Because this is this is all the rage and it has been for for quite a few many years right right now being the moments can be wonderful, yes and I love being in the moment. Sometimes, and sometimes when you're stuck in the past or the future, bring your attention back to the moment can be liberating. but there's, I think, a very important piece of information to put out there, which is this this brain up here it did not evolve to keep us in the moment. In fact, we evolve the capacity to travel in time in our minds that crazy

crazy. We spend between one half and one third of our waking hours, not in the moment. What do we think what's more the past is the past the future. It varies for different people like different people. Some are more future focused on the past, we're going back. in time It's not a bad thing, argue. It's an amazing thing. Cuz we're from our experiences where, where, experiencing nostalgia right, I'm savoring past victories I'm fantasizing among wasted. I'm young aiming this. Is this ability to travelling time crazy to superpower? I mean I I use that word lightly, but truly this is what this extinguishes us from other species, the degree to which we can do this so sometimes when we travel in time the You know the delorean. If you get that reference, it gets stuck and that's rumination or worry, and and and Thinking a one solution is: ok, we'll just stop travelling in time altogether. I don't

that's the answer right, I think. Instead, we want to figure out. How can we help people become better mental time? Travellers we help them go back in time. Think about the bad If you need to extensive it learned from it grow from it without going stock their rights. I think an that's. What a lot of the the tools can help people do. I've heard I think that there's somewhere between I dunno fifty thousand or eighty thousand thoughts a day that humans have I'm not sure what the actual number is. Is that an accurate way well it'd be hot? I I don't know, and it would be it it's a it's a hard question to answer because part of it's like well. What does it mean to even have a thought? Is it an image of verb? So hard But it's a lot. There's all audits, lots of stuff happen and, I would just say, there's tens of thousands of farmers or connecting points? I have ideas, a huge amount of activity occurring in our brains,

probably much more than most of us would imagine. In terms of I mean we're constantly making connections. I mean all. the time subconsciously and then they bubbles up into awareness and it's. I've heard also. I get none of this true that you, if we had fifty to eighty thousand thoughts a day most of them. I here are negative and most of them on repeat I heard eighty percent or something like that, is repeating thoughts, most of time their negative or worrisome or fear based or yeah protection thoughts, or that I can't Ok, so so there There has there have been like lots of different kinds of just one of my favorite studies was this was a. Apologies study were a very brave scientists one people on the streets of new york, gave him

a video tape recorder, the cut like a decade ago and just ask them to to speak while the thoughts streaming through their head as they navigated the streets of new york wow, and it's really interesting. I tell this. I go into this a little bit in the book and you hear people one woman starts talking about like she's looking for for a staple store, and then she's thinking about her friends, cancer diagnosis. I'm going down that rabbit hole, Oh and someone just cut me off and now I'm going to activists looking for stable, so the thoughts are pinning all over, but comes out of that study and many others. Studies that try to quantify this with really cutting edge tools is that the bulk of our thoughts are negative. So the majority doesn't mean all of them and there's variability across people, but a lot of the that our bubbling up are in that negative range as to whether it repeating over, and over

certainly a very common experience. I don't know if that what do you think would happen if, say that's fact, for most people, most people have reoccurring thoughts and mostly recourse thoughts are negative are we see the negative? Whenever reason were designed? stronger than good phrase? I love that, for that is prominent good. We are we is stronger than good. There are lots and lots of studies which show that we are exceptional. We more sensitive topic, losses than gains the ideas from a survival point of view, its potentially threatening to experience bad stuff than it is good stuff. If we care about survival, we want to be vigil, for the bad stuff? This is why the news stations continue to show the bad that's exactly right april, our job they're, going to the awards it and we're?

focus our energy on the bad more than the good. We try to ship that and and send out positive information to help people to overcome. Yes, the bad overcome the negative that they're consumed with what would it look like if a person Had eighty to ninety percent positive thoughts or powerful thoughts or empowering thoughts on a daily basis, And very little negative chatter, maybe the chatter came in for a moment and they were able to dress it and move back in a positive place. What would that person be creating a life with more empowering thoughts over negative thoughts, be is a technical term, very good, well, you know let's we can reverse engineer things to answer that question, so what is chaired do like so, let's go the option of spectrum your fill, which, after I I think this is one of the big problems we face as a species. Why? Because

are the three domains that that chatter targets and sinks us said our billion, I can perform so when your minds, when you're on that hamster wheel right of your attention is on your problems. It doesn't leave a whole lot over to work on what you need to do. Your job makes it really hard to perform under stress liese. Had it to unravel, because you're you're, we call you get I can paralysis by analysis right. So thinking performing Now you have children, you can't get out of it. Your performance in your bedroom think clearly goes down goes down again across two means times a day it is important that. Let's go to another domain of life that we care about something called relationship. Yes, so we know that Our creed friction in our social relationships that doesn't a few different ways: what want to talk to you about my problems, one of the things that often happens with chatters. I talk and I keep talking and keep talking and

talking and there's a limit. How much someone else even the most well intentioned, loved ones and colleagues can act can take off. Can without them experiencing their own chatter. So so it can create not ass their answer I came here. Let me get out of the house, so what friction relationships and the other thing is: let's say where you know you know what we're here and I'm thinking about other stuff you're talking to you tell me about your day of my mind is somewhere else, I'm not listening to you and that's not the ito that can also create prob. In relation to you, if I have chattered the dinner table and my dad, or my youngest daughter wants, nothing else than just tell me about what she did at at at at recess. I ask her hey, so what? What did you do today? She starts talking I go somewhere else insider mike, oh so What do I just told you? How many times can Do that without problems beginning to brew,

So relationships are an issue last domain is our physical health. You know people people, often say that stress kills, and I think that's actually a little bit misleading, because the building to ask it's a stress reaction of fight or flight reaction. This is this. Is it? feet of evolution like if there's a, if there's a friend someone's coming to get me. It's really good to know that there is this response, quickly. Prepares me for how to react. Yes the stress on its own, not bad. What makes stress toxic, the stress reaction goes up? and it that means elevated overtime and that's what chatter does, because we experience the stressful event, but then We experience it over and over by thinking about it and reliving it on

the auto player, and so the child has been linked with things like cardiovascular disease and inflammation and all sorts of so having. Negative, ruminating worrisome, anxious thoughts on a consistent basis is linked to disease. Disease is poor relationships and poor performance. I'd argue. Those are the three domains that many of us care most about and that make life really enriching and go back question about what is a person? Look like who's well to harness this chatter and and and get into another state of mind where they are experiencing either positive thoughts or an absence of negative ones, your game, in that the logic would suggest improvements in each one of those domains, south better performance, better relationships right as if some are watching listening is innovation ship, where their partner

is in constant. Their chatter is so loud that every week there questioning partner there what doing their. You know not. crossing them there. Maybe she or he is doing something wrong and bad constantly, whether it's actually happening or not. Yeah what happens, and how can you manage the chatter of a partner who keeps accusing you of something you're not doing yeah well is it is? It is a difficult predictive it into the rest. Well, you know they said there are their levels to all of this right and chatter, I think, is a sure of the human condition at something that many of us experience to varying degrees and for some people, trying to use the different tools that are out there may be helpful and so there, the the opportunities of. If, if it's my partner, ideas, okay, well, let's have a conversation to try to You understand what these tools are. Normalizes, like hey, look, latin p

experience, chatter, but you don't have to keep experiencing, has their site space tools, you can use it doesn't work. You know them There are other ways of, revealing in it at the extreme, and you know there are there, are punic intervention, see a therapist if, if the chatter morphs into you know full blown states of anxiety and depression clinical manifestations, then that I would have people to find someone who is who does a sack assigned based therapy, because be able to help really really quick. You know it's a constant dosage of hell, but that's that's. That's that's a small minority of folks when it comes to chatter right, most of us experiencing this on a daily basis or semi regularly how many negative thoughts a day. Do you think you have like percentage wise pause, thoughts, negative thoughts, you fifty fifty fifty are you

positive and their training your mind for this, so I will say that I definitely do use these tools and I've worked on different combinations and I have like I know I have my go tools that are used in the late and I I do use them. I I'm in general, pretty you know pretty positive as long as I'm not thinking about you know, ohio, I draw exactly you know I my in general, I'm positive and impart. That's that's because I know the data linked to positivity and an actually when we've done presentations, I've. I've talked to like teachers, some of these tools and when In the background behind like optimism, the I. Story about a friend in college who used to say to me like why so positive ethan and The answer I give is

beats the alternative, and if you look at the data there is a striking amount of data links. Optimism with with lots of different that up benefits health, in ships performance. I mean a lot of the things that we just talked about, so the power of positive thinking is scientifically back there. Is absolutely being able to be more proactive and positive is, is an adaptive outcome to strive for? with one little caveat right, which is that doesn't mean we should rid ourselves of negative emotions. It means look you experience a negative emotion, great europe men, and this is serving you well action, studies which show that when you bring people to like really stressful situations, you have one, think about it as a threat. Oh my god, I'm not gonna be able to deal with it in another city. we should say you know what those, Those feelings are having your stomach

It's a sign that your rising to the challenge of the situation, so you re framing this negative state as hey this is body doing what it's supposed to do under threat like I go pee because I can't pee when I'm on stage right, like you mobilizing interesting, is, that's a refrain, you're still feeling uncomfortable, but it makes it and when people perform better there as well, so I don't think we want to be more positive ridding ourselves of all negativity. I too am there, I mean I would ask for this back to you. You spoken to countless people. Think over a thousand review should ask: why is the council s interviews, yeah, so what in europe in your view is the goal. Is it to always be positive or have it be

george like an a baseline positivity and the ability to deal with the negative one it for me. It's thinking what serves the vision. What serves the mission, this anger serve the mission I have for my life in this season of my life for myself? Does it serve me being angry and holding onto this? Whatever thing happened, someone was out of integrity of this person. Try to hurt me or whatever thing is does it serve me to hold onto the anger the frustration of pain and put energy towards the problem, as opposed to. Focusing on the energy towards the mission. I think about. I also think about not discounting how I feel This counting the way, something might have hurt me- are affected me so feeling it in a moment and then quickly.

back to the vision when I'm allowed. When I'm able to distance myself and say: ok, this happened. I don't like it this sucks I have different techniques, maybe I'll scream and a pillow I'll do a workout I'll do whatever and then I say: okay, how long do I want to hold onto this pain? How long do I want to suffer and focus on one thing, as opposed to a bigger positive mission, and that's what I try to think about not counting my emotions? My pain is moving through them quickly and focusing back on the will. That's enough. Mean entirely compatible without how I view it too, you know you said if you sperience the anger you don't hold on to it the holding onto it. That's the channel that's: where hurt you, that's what hurt you but end in the appropriate amount, is it tool and in others it perspective that says, emotions both positive their tools right. They help us like if I experience a ping of of envy right

when I see someone else like that gives me some well. Maybe I need to try harder in this domain, like you know why we something you care about. Maybe it's yeah exactly like on it exactly so we can use us, but we don't want to get stuck and that's the key so overall, let's being a positive state, let's not discount the negative or try to never experience it. I think actually empowering for people to know that hey negative emotions aren't something you need to be afraid of right, they're there for a reason what about with someone's viewing imposture syndrome lot of you. Talking about imposter syndrome. In the last few years if that chatters in their mind, what's on the they can do this to feel like now, they are, they aren't in the paw. And they are where they need to be. They are ready for this moment, whatever that might be the career, the book, whatever it might be yeah, how can they overcome imposter syndrome? Well,

no impostor syndrome, gets back to these. These negative father at the end of the day, right, it's it's not a negative thought. Loop, that's focused on anxiety per se, but it's a different set of cognitions like hey. I just don't belong here, and so the idea is that these different tools you can use if you're looping regardless of what you're looping about, try these tools, and so so we've talked we talk about a few times. all linguistic, distancing, nature. We've actually talked about some another one that that I love is, is do a ritual says: huge financial. So tell me that you're rituals like what would be like well interfaith isles, man. Well, I mean as an athlete I would do many rituals before the game. I walked the field or walked a court and visualize myself not only replaying in my mind, the future of what I wanted to create, but also,

carrying my mind for when things might go wrong. So it's both okay, I'm on and defense and allow myself. How will I respond when it doesn't go? My way, thing that I wanted to all go my way, but if it doesn't, I'm also prepared for the backup yeah, that's as in sports. Another thing is, and every night before I would usually watch highlight film of individual that I was inspired by someone greater than me in that position in professional leagues, when I was in high school or college, and I would try to just put myself in that alter ego state insistently, which I want to get back to all going to second, another thing that I would do I've done many times, especially in relationships. Really ended, relationships well. Internet relationships and I've always held a lot of pain and suffering of what could happen or did I do the wrong thing or love me whatever this has been kind of like a challenge of my past,

I've had so many ceremonies and rituals where I write letters that I don't share with anyone thanking the person, talking about the things that I am grateful for about the things that I didn't like about the situation apologizing to them, Forgiving myself, and let them go and what, It was all folded up and then I'll burn. It put it the grounds and I'll bury it. this myself, we get em just move a little closer that you're me out of it, but I will come. These rituals for myself to help me closure and relationships, the army be a peace and not ruminate on frustration from both sides. I think it allows me to like close the chapter as opposed to hold onto pain,

So I do a lot of weird stuff out of that. I know, but you, but but but here's what I find so cool about this entire space, like you describe. That is weird, I think of it as beautiful and and what so many of us do in life is we stumble on tools that help sometimes don't help, but within a year I don't think I mean you: did your parents, you that, when you break up with some well sure I don't burnet line, is that the european differing give reaching out to exploit stumbling on stuff and what I think the opportune? is that to say: ok, well, here's what we know about how all these things work, and we could just give me oh a list of these six will have to wait to just kind of somebody. Lebron James is another example. The stumbling when he was trying to decide whether to leave the dreadful state, I'm just joking, but he was trying to figure out whether to leave the cat, the cat's I was actually I I like, I really like lebron and I rooted for the cavs. Yes,

knicks fan, so it's been some dark days for a long time but when he was first wave before miami. When he's trying actually leave. The cavs are not during a press interview he's going through process and he said you know, one thing I didn't want to do is make an emotional decision. Lebron james gotta do what is best for lebron James distant self talk. He just did it Jennifer lawrence is in a in a new york times interview with a reporter who starts asking her but really hard, hitting questions. What does she do she? She Stop you, as our jennifer, get yourself together. This isn't therapy. I don't know I haven't spoken to lebron or jennifer, but I do that anyone told them to use their name when they get. To distress. they want it. When I see that sometimes I think people see that if you'll see a celebrity or an athlete say you know

come on we're eggers the greatest waldner somewhat as I'm right. Don't you think I like it was a got, an ego and they think they're this big shot. This is where the science is useful. So we did a study where retract people, how frequently do this in their lives times a day. We sent them. text message and ask them. How much Talk to yourself. Have you done it using your name? We did this over two weeks. We use We included measures of narcissism, how much of a self inflated sense of zero relationship. The elgin and increase their level of ego and narcissism now stayed the same it and and people who are more narcissistic to begin with weren't more likely to do it. So you know we see people do this, liberties in front of the camera. One thing keep in mind is Celebrities are more often in front of the caverns. The non celebrities is more opportunity. The thing is, this might just be a example of something that's useful. That gives

has a social cost? That's why I don't tell anyone to do it out loud, but School go back to internal internally, always do that, you're not saying even crosses the best. You know I'm when you're doing it now sound like I said how is it always knows what to do. Heathens always saying this out loud already uncomfortable here I know I I never said internal internally and that's an important newspaper always internally, but to go back to which was so rituals are useful. First of all, I think it's really important to recognize that our cultures give us tools like there are things we develop honour on, you have one before I go, you know I give a presentation my head, what my high school wrestling coach used to tell me like, and that's my ritual, and it helps me feel better, but but our cultures throughout time like have. bestowed rituals upon us. So, like one dies. We have grieving ritual

when, when babies are born birthing rituals births like a store I ve been a time of stress joy, but also like, while the baby make it, and so this is at the top it's like a technology that we've discovered it can be very useful and it helps in a few different ways, one the things that people like this experience of having chatter you can feel like you. Don't have control, like my my My thoughts are in control is How in there what's going on and human beings, Love, love, love! Being in control of things, or if the world is certain and we can cool things like we feel really good, we've learned is that by buying keep doing things that are under our control, like engaging in a specific once a behaviors like you do with your rituals or even things like organizing. Our surroundings like tidying up weak.

that gives us a sense of control, we can control our space environment. That's why I make my bed every morning. That is why I read so much peace. of mind. Going into the next activity. Knowing I did a productive activity have a space around dirty mind: that's right, a clean environment you're, compensating for the of control you have in your head, hurt by controlling, like I'm, I'm a pretty easygoing guy. Under normal circumstances, if you came until I visited my office at home like stacks of bulk cinema He cups, linda but if I Some chatter like that off this is spick and span and- and I often do it reflexively- I just start organizing and cleaning up. What does do for the mind when you organize your space, it organizes your thoughts really and so it hell and so there's data. This is not just a gruff ale, nadal.

He gave an interview several years ago and and he was a journalist who asked MIKE what's the hardest thing you struggled to do on the court, the answer was hardest thing I struggle to do is battle, the voices inside my head, manage the chatter and If you watch nadal You know what he does. Nadal is famous for Jeanne, these elaborate rituals, he orders his water bottles positions them perfect in a diagonal. What the court before every serve you like flips, his hair, puts the shorts out of his and bounces the ball. he says like so why do you do these rituals? They provide me with the order I seek in my head, and the data bears that out there. Studies which show that doing rituals are organizing or spaces can actually have

anxiety, reducing features is why you see a lot of baseball players, do the same attempt before bat. You see basketball players at the free, throw line to the same amount of dribbles or what flip the ball? Are they the ones that do it consistently? Don't have to think of another approach? You do the same approach every time, that's right line and silks rituals are kind of like there are another one of these cocktails in the sense that they help us in a few different ways, so they help us by giving us a sense of order and control. That's useful ritual are also often attention. lead demanding in the sense that they are not easy. To just do there that there pieces like what you describe writing a letter right getting to the point where you start to see where you actually thank them and apologise on a paper. Yeah, that's effort right, and then you also crumpling it up

burning it or putting it in an incense machine, you're blowing it all over the place. You're rubbing, I do where you know it'd be like there are snaps, and so performing those steps takes attention away from the chatter, It can be useful in that way too, as a momentary distraction, and then, the thing is rituals. Not all is, but are often infused with meaning. So there there's, meaning that we often have from engaging in the same ritual the same way like when I like a weekend ritual with my kids, where, like I wake up exercise, is it going to farmers market and come back and make bread my daughter's. We do it together, there's meaning, and that meaning is like you just. I beg you, know becoming a fly on the wall like there's more to life than what I and so oh rituals, do all those things and its one. So it's like, That's another tool,

I have tools that are out there, so I think it's important to have some type of ritual, whether it's five minutes or fifty minutes every morning and every night to help start his thoughts in a more productive and powerful progressive way in the morning and not being reaction, chatter mode, yeah start that away finish. The to close, the line down from the chatter I like to just gratitude my girlfriend: what are three things you're grateful for. I share three things to create perspective. Okay, maybe I was angry about this today or this happened, but there's still a lot of good. Its focus on that yeah, and I asked why thinking gratitude is a very useful intervention, and so I think it's great that you guys do that, and you know You mention it it's about perspective, and that is that is the antithesis of chatter. cause is all about getting lost in the moment and being so immersed that we lose that perspective. The question is like what

is the tool or what are the tools you need to broaden use at a crowbar as a crowbar and a hammer screwdriver like and and different people, are gonna use, different tools to help make that happen, and so that you know it lots of for a long time, we've studied individual tools and what we're learning is that no single tool, no single intervention, explains it all right with his I think our society has struggled and suffered me included with having a two personalities, finding substances as tools, but would be alcohol smoking pornography or whatever it is comparison mode as too those don't do any those by road as tools to none the chatter. Yes, his calm, the chatter. Let s find something to bring a dump of gopher mean that will allow me too.

You're happier in the moment, but then we ways will worse after that dump Faye ass. An these are more conscious tools, not so sense or addictive tools in a negative sense that we should start implementing, so we don't have to lean towards. I have nowhere to cope. I want to drink, I'm going to smoke. A I'm at whatever. And I think, of our societies- can learn how to use emotional intelligence. Psychological tools. Support us, as opposed to hurting us, would be a lot better off. I mean I completely agree all the tools, talking about are or the free they're free, not hurtful their easy to use. Now now can any tool be taken to an extreme, and be harmful. Yes, right, so you want to use the tool appropriately in the energy analogy like to give is of a hammer, a hammer

is a source of amazing. You know creations, we build houses and all sorts of things, but if you use it the wrong way to intensively too much, you can get into trouble so so rituals are great example, their peace, some people. Think rituals. They immediately think about o c, obsessive, compulsive disorder and ritual are a feature there, but that's an example of taking a tool that is useful to an extreme gotcha always seem to organize everything. Every moment. That's like that's chattering exactly that's all becomes chatter. Exactly so having that recognition, I think is, is important. What about montrose I'm a pause affirmations. What's the difference between a pause of information and a mantra is a moderate we can use to eliminate each other. mantra is prevalent in meditation and meditation I would now suggests is another kind of tool we can use to manage chatter, its work,

one tool among the many? It's not the only tool, and I think that you know I've been meditating on and off since I'm five years old, my dad and my fifth birth, Hey, I wanted a bicycle. He got me a mantra and said I was very upset at the moment in retrospect. Wasn't a bad thing he went on to you, you wanted a bicycle. You've got your module, it was very upsetting and my fifth birthday moderate trauma was the module. It was. It was tm it a transcendental mantras, just a sound that that you repeat and the beauty of mantras is and meditation. This is another that we've developed over time like chatters and age old problem problem in dealing with it for as long We ve had language for as long as you been talking to other people and talking to our selves with probably had chow. And we ve learned tools, overtime, tat too, was a meditation? Is one of them. So when you repeat a mantra over and over again, the idea is that that's not

easy to do, because it's hard to focus one thing. So so what over? What you realize is: oh wow, I just wasn't focusing on a for four minutes, and so you realize how easy it is for your attention to shift for other thoughts to come into play, but time the ideas that you begin to realize that you're not same thing as your thoughts, and you can let go of thoughts right and just re bring your attention to something else. It's with training your mention at all. getting you to understand that you don't have Have control of the thoughts that pop up in your head, but do have control about what you do once they pop up, and I think that awareness is real. He really important if you are going to when I teach a class and self control,

We often have a discussion about this and some students. I asked what is self control like? Is it? Is it a failure like what, if you have the temptation to in our after ten o'clock, but you don't follow through with it. Is that of control failure some students think know you. You succeeded, like you didn't give into it other like if you have the thought itself, you failed response to those students is, you are setting a really high bar for six see not have yet having a thought you're going to think I won't eat food, but the self control is but on an act on it. That's exactly right! That's right! So I think, but that You need to go back to their learning about stuff, no teaches us about these things in a formal way like if you take a class in psychology, maybe in college you'll get this and

I think it's a problem because when you think about like, I spent a lot of time talking to educators and we teach children- adolescents out information that we know a rethink. Its culturally significant. Its knowledge are we, so you want to read charlotte bronte and in that questionable, but I think it's important. Or we think this information is actually going to serve the students. Well as they go on and live another life. So me, learning math useful, like learning how to computer percentage amazingly, usually every time I go to give a tip, I do a percent. Practical knowledge. Why are we not teaching people about how the mind works and how to manage the mind like it's hard for me to think about a more important topic like not a day goes by where I challenge in some way that requires me to manage myself and we're just like throw

the people we care most out into the world without any information about the the, not everyone but the ones that grow up playing sports coaches. Usually great coaches have learned some of this. Some of these tools and techniques for their athletes when they're on, Stress exactly when they gale when they lose when they injured the great ones, have learned these tools on teaching them about how to do this when they're in school, which is what I felt like, was very supportive for me cuz, I would it all the time, and I didn't know how to feel like. I was stupid. Stupid how wasn't worthy and how wasn't lovable like. I was feeling those things because would fail so much in school, but I learned sports in high school and college like now like. Here's. How you deal with failure years of failure can be a tool to support you and failures doesn't mean you are its it's information, it's feedback or true enough

in what way your gaps are and how you can take and if you're not falling, I mean you're, not rolling yeah. That's goes back to the importance of negativity in small doses you need like, if my life is, I'm not ready at this point in my life to just be in you know, you know, distance coasting like I want, grow in via personally professionally and there's, be some hurdles. experience yeah there's a visit, a meme online of said this before in the show, like a meme that says like when it's is learning to walk they something like a thousand times or something like that and none of those times. Did the kids say? Maybe this walking thing isn't for me re, examine our site and I fell a hundred times I won, hit my head. I scratch my elbow and cry. They don't say I'm while the rest of my life, living in space because it's painful that's right, you're out, they may have they use the couch right, I'm assuming

and they figured out That's what we need to learn as adults is. How do we not fail once at something and think I'm a failure, I'm going to never do this again. Is it hurts so much? But how can I learn to manage the chatter in my mind and take the next step? That's exactly and why? Why do we have to wait for people like you, too figure this out? Why do we have to wait for people? the stumble on the tools now like what you're doing with this podcast. That's one attempt to educate and I think we need a lot more, I think, there's an opera Good be here to be systematic and how we give people, this information to teach people We don't have to wait until you've got an iphone and you know we could go much earlier, and so I think That's. That's all exciting challenge and opportunity that awaits us? and I think you know there's more receptivity to that nowadays. What about the subconscious mind?

what's the difference between the conscious mind the subconscious, mind how do we manage the chatter of the subconscious? Mind I wish I knew that one. You know that the conscious mind is what we're aware of our our our our subject: give experience of who we are and how we feel and that's it. territory. That's a space that I feel comfortable. That's study. I feel comfortable avi, the sub conscious mind is a giant mystery. We still don't quite know what gives rise to a particular kind of thought. Likewise, a thought bubble up. We have some ideas about what the triggers can be, but There are so many different computation. happening on our brain. All the time like the brain is doesn't go off like when you sleep or when you're not always think it's always engaging in different operations and you economically all. That is sub, conscious and so

it's not until things bubble up into our awareness that we can start modulating things got it. I don't know of of tools, that can be useful for managing the subconscious chariot. Afraid freud was a big opponent of that, and a lot of those tools haven't stood the test of time, so that not to say we won't find tools at some point, you know we we, we still have a ton to learn, but I, but it's not something that I would you know, know how to coach. Yeah. I grew up in a religion called christian science or the the founder and religions, maybe Mary baker, eddy, and she had a quote that sets porter at the door of thought This is something I heard over and over as a child to not allow negative we're mortal thoughts enter my mines and take over the minds, because those the things that would hurt me and have me thinking harmful, though

about myself about others about doing immoral things. Things like that and that's we stood with me to stand porter porter a of thoughts, and when something we don't control, what comes to the door like things, are the the door of her mind or time will you so we control like how we respond to those? Yes, we open the door and allow it to come in and stay there or do we open the door? and say, hey. You can leave well at describes right there, the difference between and so to answer your question. I think there is there's a time and a place for engaging with the thought Just letting a float away. Many mindful practices- for us acceptance based approaches to dealing with adversity suggest when we observe ourselves experiencing a negative thought. We should recognize it accept it and then let it go. Bye, bye, don't engage with it.

There can be value to that approach for sure, like if the negative thought is irrelevant and has no implication. For my witcher is random self, defeating cognition, let it go off, what one metaphor that I love is think about the money school bus and there, if passengers different kids, who get you're the driver, the bus right and passengers come on, some are really serve spitballs and others are nice and kids coming on come on. off the bus and that's how the mind works, and so just if one of these obnoxious kids come on. Just let them go. You know so there time and a place for that, but there is also a time. I'm where we do need to engage with the negative stuff we have to engage because we have to learn from it like you really messed up some time like you'd like I know,

people who are so skilled at just not attaching to the negative stuff, they don't take responsibility or accountability. They say that wasn't me: it's not my fault, I'm not gonna yeah and so, and I don't think that's productive either horse. So you want to be strategic and nimble. This goes back to that. There's, no one size fits all right. We have evolved these different tools for a reason so, like you know, Why my my wishes? You know like with your got like a building team. Come in they've got these amazing tool kits or were like batman. You knows the utility belt with all the different We want to give people the most sophisticated tool belt that they can have so that they can we adapt, using the right one, given the right situation, and what about. The alter ego mindset, something is, is a tool that you would

walkabout or you recommend people using like fiance yeah he's an alter ego. She goes on stage yeah. I used to use one when I was going into the football field I'm sure, there's a lot of other examples out there, people stepping into a character in their minds to disa, their fear, done research on this actually and it must have been a bit like a superhero in here like be bought me out of the period we called the bat manufacturers and its it's all. It is about an altar ego and We find that, in particular with kids, where we've done the most research on us, it can be useful. It's it's a they're kind of distancing tool right, like you're stepping outside of yourself and into this other identity that is skilled in the domain. Your in for kids, you know I pretend you're wonder woman or dora the explorer batman, and then we put them in a stressful tassel. What do we know about superheroes like they don't give up they could go in. I write off of your shoe mean that alter eagle you keep doing it now, the one cat

add to this is if choose in all three ego: choose wisely, don't want to choose to become the joker right for or choose your other villain, because and there is some research which suggests that it depends on which, for eco, you select because you're going to assume part of their identity and- and so you don't want to assume the malicious or bad or bad guy, but that's another. Another kind of toy can use it. That's another distancing tool, distance so it is a bit like. If chatter is all about immersion, we want find ways of just broadening that perspective. Breaking people. getting outside of themselves more terrorism, whatever it is meditation any tool you can camping, related away from it and then getaway, but then in. Age once you're from that different perspective right, so we don't want people to avoid. We want them to step back, be able to engage more objectively, just I'm giving you advice liking your problem, like I could weigh in

happening to me. I can. I can really use every mental resource. I have to give you the best part. levice what I'm bathed in emotion, not as easy to do really hard when so emotional and angry or frustrated are fearful to communicate the right. What like in a healthy way. Yes, it's really hard. I've been there so many times in the past,. What should we do, when we want to argue with someone were angry at someone of business colleague relationship whatever, shall we unloaded them in that way, or should we try to figure out a way to like com, the chatter first and then have a conversation, that one? Why why? Why is he my knife? Some people can't do that. While I think I think because number one it's hard to chapter. We we've been struggling with this for for a really long time and again we don't we don't talk about these tools,

that- are out there. So for some of us we're just stumbling on these tools. Others are discovering them at all other people may think like. the things are doing aren't actually helpful, like they're, venting or they're taking drugs Or doing other things that we know are harmful, so so I think there's a lot of there's an opportunity here. to learn about what we can do Of course, you know there are these impulses we have like when we get angry. We are often motivated to engage. And so remembering to think about. The big picture, I think, can be really helpful. I what about language we use a language is key, not just the internal dialogue but the I swear words. We say how does the words we say affect our thoughts was so so language can can shape how we think you know.

We don't only think in word, so it's not the same thing as thinking, but but certainly the way we use language to explain what we're going through is really powerful. I mean subtitle my books, a voice in our head are inner voice and Oftentimes. I talk about this material to people, well, the first thing you say v. How can I say that voice to shut it up. I don't want to ever hear it And I say them as no: you don't want to do that. You want to want to stop the chatter but words language. This is a powerful tool like so I'll. Give you a couple examples what language does for us in the most sixth sense. If I were to I'm not spell out, a word, I'm not going to give you some letters. I want you to just repeat these letters in your head. Silently, okay, okay m I c h. I g a and get

can you repeat those letters and you had two or three types of two. So if you were, if I give you a phone number or a two, oh nine, here too, and I know five or one like someone gives you that that doesn't happen anymore. It's already the one we are growing out as it did. You repeat that you had your using your your inner voice to do than right. That's part of what we call our view, verbal working memory system, this system is essential. It's like you go to a grocery store, you want. What do I need from the grocer eggs, bread and milk your inner voice. Let you do that. So that's that's an that's an essential way that language helps us, but then it gets more complicated. Does other things for us forgive her presentation in my head, I Go through what I'm going to say. on the stage a go through it word by word in my head and then I'll act hear what someone's going to ask me, and I I'm simulating that

whole visualize visualizing. I mean I'm doing it with language in my head, and I think that help prepare me I use language to coach myself to control mice. Alright done the cookies. When I you know like it's too late, you don't want your pants are going to be there already a little tight for pandemic. We don't write, we also use language to. I think this is but the most magical feature of it. We, when bad things happen, We try to make sense of those experiences. We use language to do that in ways that shape our understanding of who we are so like when I'm rejected or I experienced last, I think, about those events. I try to come up with story, a narrative that explains it like that all about words, so language it lets us do a lot of amazing things, but across take us down the rabbit hole if we're using one language and exactly ourselves down

For me, this is the type of work that I feel like everyone should be consuming. Some the grateful you created this work in this book chatter, the voice in our head- why it matters and how to harness it by eating ass. May she guys get a few copies of this book, because there are twenty six tools here, going through a lot of them and I felt like I use some of them already and others. I was like wow, that's a powerful thing that I can started applying my own lives of makes you guys get this book. I think it's going to be in an incredibly powerful tool that you use for yourself and for other people in your life and coaching other people's well get the book chatter, the voice in our head. Why it matters and where can we follow you online or is there a place that we can support you online yeah? You can do it go to my website w w dot ethan cross with a k, dot com,

and then I'm on instagram and twitter and linkedin o'clock. What's your what's your main social channel, and would you like to use the most instagram I I this is all new to me. I have begun professor world yeah, so do I and I have actually studied social media and while beings, I know it can be a minefield. Gotta be careful how you navigate it absolutely, and I I must say I really like instagram, that's cool, how about you, which are you or is it just eastern cross, on instagram or okay? Instead, it's a big one for me as well youtube. We have a big audience, tell you so what they found. providing this information on all these playoffs yeah yeah to the amazing way to you know social media. You know people off Ask me because we've been doing research on social media for so long and how it impacts well being is a good or bad. and my answer is it's it's You know it's a new environment and it like, if you think, of the offline world, you can go if you go to the wrong neighborhoods and in the physical world and talk to the wrong

will the wrong way you get in trouble If the right neighborhoods and talk to the right people, you could benefit social media the same way and one of the real benefits is how it can connect us get information out. So that's how I've been trying to to use it and not for the harmful, at all appropriately abuse the tool otherwise it'll abused. You that's right, like the tools in your book. That's right, gotta, learn to use them in the right way a questions this and called the three truths so like you to imagine a hypothetical situation Last day on earth, many years away from now, you live as long as you want to live, but eventually got to turn off the lights. Accomplish. everything you want to accomplish. You use everything come to life, your dreams, all that stuff, but you take all of your work with you. No one else access to your content, your words, videos, nothing! You have to take it with you to the next place.

You get to leave behind three things. You know to be true from your experiences of life Lessons that you would share with the world- and this is all we would have to remember you by I caught the three truths greenhouse and what would you say, are your three cheers boy? Oh boy,. that was supposed to come in the memo before we start now. So what are the three truths? Ah, it gets better with time because it it it almost always does the were much better at helping others than we ourselves, because I think that can be

as a framework for living, a good flourishing life, I'm credibly powerful understanding and be a man Each year match the immense mench in our term I grew up with, which is not just be a good decent human beings, because. because it feels good and because it makes other people feel good and because its rewarding for everyone, so there you have it, be a mensch big fan of this. What connects maybe I'll come to michigan the big house some day. If you can get me, take it maybe I'll come up. Finally take it is yours the somebody seems to have to use some tools to regulate the south before you before you come Our technology is in four for showing up powerfully for the last couple of decades doing the research doing this work, helping students

who need the most at the university of michigan and and now helping the world through this book the work you're doing and putting yourself out there. I feel like these strategies and tools, the things we need the mouse. So I'm really grateful that you're alive from really grateful that you created this work, I'm really grateful that you're showing up. powerful way to support and serve people who need help understanding their minds, the noise, the anxiety and distress like knowledge, for that were really grateful, here. My final question is: what is your definition of greatness. Sign them not. This is another one. I wish I had the memo on as worries. What is my definition, greatness. Definition of greatness is, is leaving leaving another. person little bit better off than for they met you and me

the world? I guess if I'm, if I'm going to the next domain, leaving just a little bit better than it was before I came on it. That would be a definition of a great life, while Ethan my pleasure. Thank you appreciate it. Man so much for listening to this conversation, if you enjoyed it and you want to dive into another similar school of greatness episode, check out the links in the podcast description done more than nine hundred fifty episode over the past seven years, and I bring you more inspiration just like this.

Oh and one more thing we ve been choosing for lucky winners. Each week like federico from ITALY, william from Arizona Gabby from California, victor from may go, and so many others and that's right. They each one and amazon gift card, and he is why it's our goal to get to know you better. So we ve created a short in simple survey. All you have to do is fill out this quick questionnaire at louis how's, dot, com, slashed survey and that's it. It only takes a couple of minutes, but it really helps me achieve my goal to continue to serve you in the best possible way through this podcast and as a threat, you for completing the survey I'll be picking for new winners every week to get a twenty five dollar amazon. It's so go to Lewis' house dot com, slash survey, to fill it out right now,

thank you so much for listening to episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got some value out of these tools from doctor. You can cross if you did make sure to share this posted on social media and text it to a few friends and if you enjoyed it, makes me to tag me up on instagram and let me know what part you enjoy the most as well as leave us a rating and review over on apple podcast, and, let me know the part of this episode that you got the most value out of this, would love to read those ratings and reviews over an apple contact and will leave you with this quote from Abraham maslow. Who said in any given moment, we have two options to step forward into growth for two step back

To safety, who you got to evaluate your life right now in this moment, are you living a saved life or you living a comfortable life? Is it too comfortable, or are you doing things on a daily basis to help you get beyond your insecurities? Your fears, your doubts, the things that hold you back from greater join your life. Every great thing comes when you overcome insecurity to lean into your insecurities and go all in on those fears, because I'm telling you there is magic and beauty on the other side, and I will remind you of no one's told you lately that you are loved. You are worthy and you and you know what time it is it's time to go out there and do, the thing. Great the.